A Look at Debian Etch Beta 3 71
An anonymous reader writes "The All about Linux blog has a down-to-earth review of the latest Linux offering from Debian — Etch Beta 3 which optionally sports a very intuitive GUI installer. The review looks ar the pros and cons of Debian Etch Beta 3 as well as what the Debian team could do to make this not-for-profit Linux distribution even more popular."
More of the same. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If you think a year and a half was a long time (Etch is due out in December), I'll remind you that there was almost 3 years between Woody [debian.org] and Sarge [debian.org].
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re:More of the same. (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
winner (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Back when Woody was new, there were masses of Debian users everywhere, but in the 3 years between releases I saw that number dwindle down as Ubuntu and Gentoo rose to power. Does anyone have some actual statistics (or know where to find them) showing the change? Distrowatch [distrowatch.com] shows that Debian has fallen from #7 to #9 but only shows the last 12 months. Does anyone think that Debian can return to it's former glory or has it been crushed by
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
OSX, on the other hand, has a new version approximately every 12-18 months. 10.1 was the major exception, being released just 6 months after the original release. It was also the only free upgrade for OSX.
Re:More of the same. (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe, but by switching to 2.6, debian risks losing several users to slackware.
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
kashani
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, there's something to be said for stability, and I won't argue against Debian's stability, but I've got hardware for which there is no support. I'm not going to run everything on 2004 hardware just because Debian insists on running 2004 software.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:More of the same. (Score:4, Insightful)
Doesn't this hold true for any distro release? At its heart, a distro is more or less an organized collection of packages. Actual development of the software is done by other people--for example, the linux kernel is developed independently from any distro release. This is unlike more traditional unices (such as BSD or Sun OS) in which new releases herald additions/changes to the core system. While distro maintainers frequently contribute to development (Debian, RedHat, Ubuntu--younameit), those are considered seperate projects from the distro itself (except when the projects are the foundation for the creation of the distro itself, such as Debian's package system and installer).
I used to try different distros a lot--jump around constantly. What I took away from that is that no matter where you go, you almost always get the same thing (with varying levels of up-to-dateness). After all, GNU is GNU is GNU (or are rose by any other name); a distro just takes that, wraps it up, and puts a lovely bow on top (sometimes no bow, like on Slackware).
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
su
insert root password here
apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade
hope that helps you out in how hard it is to update Debian.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
I'm never sure exactly what to say when commnets like this come around, because it feels like the people posting them occupy some bizarre parallel universe that I have never visited.
The installer was freezing? I've only experienced this before with bad hardware or flaky media.
You couldn't figure out how to update the system? Because the biggest issue was "finding the right server"? Every time I've installed debian (and keep in mind that I've done it on dozens of different systems over the past five years,
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
I have net-installed debian over a phone line (Score:1, Interesting)
The initial X setup was frustrating because I downloaded a bunch of stuff for the wrong video card. However, even with that the whole setup took less than a day. The final installed image was less than 600 MB (excluding the package cache, which I apt-get cleaned).
So it is definitely possible. A lot of bloat needs to be addressed in Debian as in other linuxes -- I am pretty sure it could have been
Re:I have net-installed debian over a phone line (Score:5, Insightful)
That's what I love about Debian. It's wonderfully easy to optimise the package combinations. You could probably get it down even further, if you use the deborphan command to figure out all "leaf" packages (i.e packages that aren't dependencies for others). Then you can cull down the ones you don't want, rerun deborphan again, rinse and repeat. Also very useful for culling bloat in the system, from extra software installed over time.
This has to be the one myth about Debian that has almost every other Linux user suckered.
For these people, here is a rundown of the many different faces of Debian. You can choose four different types of Debian:
Then, as if that wasn't enough, you can selectively include packages from all four distributions, by specifying a default dist, and specifically apt-getting from one of the four. Personally, that's what I do on my machine, using 'testing' as a base. I've also been known to set this up on some servers I maintain, if they desperately need a newer php or something like that. Works like a charm.
So as you can see, Debian can change rapidly. Very rapidly. It all depends on what you choose. It's just that the Debian "releases" are always of the 'stable' distribution. Hence this common misconception.
Re: (Score:2)
The reason for this is because 'Etch' is close to release. We're not in full freeze yet, but
Re: (Score:1)
It's wonderfully easy to seemingly cull the bloat, until you run into the libc6 trap (nobody ever should run into that one), the lbreakout2 trap, or any others like that. Deborphan says: lbreakout2-data? No,
Re: (Score:2)
experimental (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Intuitive Gui installer (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah but it's GUI, man! It's now cool. Curses ain't named that for nuthin'.
But seriously, if Debian would tack on a game of tetris to the gui install, then it'd be worth it. No more booring waiting for downloads to finish and install.
Maybe it's something I can program and contribute back to Debian, i
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Informative is better than Intuitive. (Score:5, Informative)
The questions are the same and the layout is practically the same. The X-based installer is just as (but no more) intuitive than the curses installer.
That might be because computer set up is not intuitive. Device drivers, naming conventions and file system arrangement follow few conventions and there are many correct combinations. Worse, the user is at their ISP or network administrator's mercy for almost all of the network set up.
What Debian's installer has always done is inform. The Debian install is one of the most informative of Linux installs outside of Gentoo. It tells you what it's doing, offers hints for common situations and tells you where you need information from someone else.
Screenshot button? (Score:4, Insightful)
Forgive me, but besides making it easier for these sorts of previews/reviews, I don't see why there is a 'screenshot' button in the main install window. It's not exactly such a central feature that it should be placed right beside the 'continue/go back' buttons. I realize this is the 'expert gui', but that isn't an excuse for sloppy design. I don't necessarily think this feature should disappear, but it should be moved somewhere else, perhaps in a menu and/or left as a hotkey.
I realize I'm nitpicking here, and it's nice to see Debian trying to make their system more user friendly, however I hope they have someone who has a strong background in interface design working with them. Having windows and buttons in their install doesn't automatically make it easier to use.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Screenshot button? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
I agree with you; I hope that we don't see this in the final version. I can understand that it might be useful for debugging and even documentation, but, being an installer, it should be made only to serve the purpose of installing--having features that don't contribute to that goal in the final version (sans debugging code) is careless.
Beta 3??? (Score:5, Informative)
How many people are running Etch already? (Score:5, Informative)
This was fixed in base-config 2.66 in June 2005. It's too bad that base-config remained at 2.53.10 for both sarge r1 in December 2005 and sarge r2 in April 2006.
In other words, anyone who installed Debian sarge and blindly did apt-get update; apt-get upgrade unknowingly upgraded themselves to etch, except for packages that required dist-upgrade or manual installation (i.e. kernels).
Re:How many people are running Etch already? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
However, the first time I ran apt-get update; apt-get upgrade after using base-config, I ended up with a mixed system because base-config created testing lines.
I then used netselect-apt to select faster apt repositories. I ended up having a neat problem where I couldn't install perl because base-perl had a higher version than it did. I couldn't downgrade base-perl because b
Beating A Dead Horse? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:1)
perhaps it is time that distros moved on to tackle other problems that prevent people from using Linux more commonly such as wireless support.
And how do you propose they do that? Most wireless cards these days already have very good Linux support, and those that don't, well, it's not for lack of effort. The unsupported cards are unsupported because the manufacturers won't release the information needed to support them.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Anyways, w
Re: (Score:1)
Very few models actually have even decent linux support. In fact, I would say that unless you have been really lucky in your life to pick good wireless cards, that you have never tried to set up wireless before. As to the companies not releasing the firmware, perhaps its time to voice our (linux users) opinion that we want better card support. We are consumers, the companies want our money. Perhaps even a boycott of certain cards could forc
Re: (Score:2)
Very few models actually have even decent linux support. In fact, I would say that unless you have been really lucky in your life to pick good wireless cards, that you have never tried to set up wireless before.
Over the last ~5 years, I've used over dozen different cards, the first ones all PC cards, lately a mix of USB, PCI and builtin (which are also PCI). I've only found one PCI card that didn't work with Linux, unless you want to use ndiswrapper. I returned it and got another one that did work. I'
Linux for... (Score:1)
Welcome to the Debian Community, Ravi! (Score:4, Insightful)
It's always nice to see someone appreciating Debian for what it is: simple, stable and free. The installer is only the beginning. File structure, modules and software configuration all follow the same philosophy. This makes maintaining and adding to the system as easy as it was to set up. It's easy to customize and hard to make it bloated. Nothing is hidden and everything is easy to change through text file manipulation or various GUIs. The lack of non free software makes a difference in start up time, smooth running and customization. Right now, that blocks you out of a lot of entertainment, such as YouTube, but things are quickly changing on that front. For basic desktop and laptop use, Etch is an excellent contender. If you need Flash and all that, there are Debian derivatives like Xandros, Ubuntu or Mepis. Those distributions might still be better for a complete Linux newbie. For people who want a system for work and who have a few years of unix, Debian is calling.
That said, I wish Ravi could be a little more patient. When he writes:
how much effort will it take to provide a download link to the latest version of Debian simultaneously recommending a specific version for desktop users (even if it is in beta stage) on the main page of debian.org site ? I would guess not much. The download link provided at present takes the visitor to Debian Sarge which is too outdated for use as a Desktop.
he should know that Etch is due to go stable in December. That's just three months away! At that time, Etch will be as easy to find as Sarge is today. The release roadmap [wikipedia.org] does not have a general freeze until October and newbies should wait until then if they, like Ravi, don't have a good network connection. Though Etch has been a great distribution to use for a year or so, there have been a lot of package changes. Not all of them have been smooth and there's nothing like 500MB of update to sour a Debian newbie.
Re: (Score:2)
'Beta'? Not really... (Score:5, Informative)
Calling this a beta is misleading. Etch is currently the Debian 'testing' distro, which means it is undergoing constant, incremental updating. All the people that complain about the slow release cycle, or expect the packages included in this 'beta' review to be the same as what you'll download tomorrow, don't understand how Debian works.
The time between stable releases is indeed quite long, but when a new app version is released by the upstream developers it often appears in Debian unstable within a day or two, and from there into testing in the space of a few weeks. Which means you can have a (slightly) unstable Debian system that is at most days behind the most cutting edge distro, or an almost rock-solid Debian 'testing' system that is rarely more than a month behind. You're only stuck with the two year release cycle if you cannot tolerate any problems whatsoever. And if you are working on something that critical, you shouldn't be going anywhere near applications with less than 10 days of field-testing (the minimum to pass from unstable to testing) anyways, regardless of which distro you run.
yp.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
True, but they are only calling the installer a beta. Etch as a whole is not beta. It is already ready for use by modestly experienced users for general use, anything other than absolutely 'mission-critical' application. I'm running it now on my desktop and laptop, and find it more stable than any of the more 'user-friendly' distros I've tried.
yp.
A review of the review.... (Score:5, Interesting)
OK, it's nice to see someone trying to give an even handed approach to a distro. But I think there are a few points that could be improved upon.
In the end there are some comments about the Debian web site regarding the use of weblogs for technical support and a cleaner site so you can find the razor sharp release of etch.
Weblogs for technical support suck. There are better ways of doing it. I have found mailing lists to be far superior to web logs for the simple reason that they are more accessabble, easier to read (no ads, no extra content fighting for your attentions) and above all else, filterable by machines and humans based on content, writer, and subject. Weblogs are for little people who want to talk about support, not get it. Yes, I'm very opinionated about this. I've yet to have a good experience with weblogs and technical support.
Debian Etch 3 is not for the new user. If it was, it would be called stable. Yet everyone insists on reviewing this one. The fact that it's harder to find from the debian front page is a good thing. I would not want to have to support something that hasn't yet been released. Similarly, expert mode is not for the faint of heart. Making a comment that it would be nice to provide more information for the new user in expert mode's use of FSCK is retarded. expertmode it not intended for the new user -- don't expect it to be.
Why does everyone have to review the installation process itself? Sure, it's the first introduction to the OS and that means something. But everyone makes such a big deal about nice looking gui installers. What's the value in a gui installer versus a curses based installer when you are trying to get the job done. I'm sure Debian will benefit greatly because of this but in reality it's not a requirement to getting the job done.
All that said, I would like to see reviews done not on the first 5 minutes of use of a distro but based on the first 90 days or 12 months of use on a distro. This is were it matters most. These 5 minute reviews are like a one night stand. You won't really know what you have landed until you see the make-up come off.
I have to confess, I'm a fan of Debian. Never tried Unbuntu. But I've tried Gentoo, RedHat, and Suse 9. After using these for 18 months I dropped them all and went back to Debian. That's my idea of a review. I had to use the things for a long period of time and live with their decisions long enough to understand what they were doing and not doing well.
Gentoo -- not my favorite. I like the idea behind it, but they have this uncanny ability during upgrades to allow the user to do amazingly stupid things based on stupid ideas to begin with. I trashed my fstab file based on an upgrade from gentoo. Why would the distro EVER consider upgrading a file like fstab? Really, if there's any reason why a working system should have one of it's most critical files ever considered as upgradable I would love to hear it. This is just an example of the difficulties in upgrading -- hundreds of diff files to sort through every few days.
RedHat -- They just had some weird stuff that was really inconsistent. Everytime I change my firewall rules, my ntpserver was disabled. WTF? Inconsistent behaviour that was never disclosed during the operation. And I don't like their GUI approach of making everything appear as one. Too socialistic for me.
Suse -- I used this one the longest and found the greatest problem with it over time. Suse does a superior job of supporting you hardware/software needs as long as you do exactly what they expect you to do. Installation of anything beside KDE you are stepping closer to the edge. Custom configurations of installations will push you to a point where Suse will not upgrade/manage that package for you and before you know it -- you're running a whole software space in customized RPM's or having your installation re-configured back to the basics during upgrades.
Debian -- It's not the easiest to configure. But it's the most polite about allowing you to make modifications, keep those modifications, and follow expected behaviours. And it's stable, allowing me more time to do the fun stuff.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Have they changed their practices or changed their model?
I don't have to read any RTFM to know that I don't want to remove/replace my fstab file. But what I did run into is a process of upgrades where I have 100's of diffs to sort our on my /etc/ directory and over time I do make mistakes. When it's 10 I can deal with it. When it's 200 I can't. I'm human. But when the mistake is make on a critical system file it makes me wonder why something like this is even included as a file that can be upgraded by
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
"Debian Etch Beta 3" (Score:2)
He's right. I think people will be surprised (Score:2)
Maybe I'm prejudiced because my Ubuntu disk hung on my test machine and I didn't think much of the Kubuntu I downloaded but I like Debian the more I use it and I'm glad I went with their base foundation. Switching to testing for close to a year, I think people will be surprised that the packages are pleasantly current.
As for the installation, there really is a question of how simple you can realistically want it to be. AT LEAST IT ISN"T DEBIAN WOODY!!