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Business 2.0 Says 'Boycott Vista'

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the business-gets-surly dept.

756

amyandjake writes "Business 2.0 has a story about Vista's delays, the amount of time wasted by Microsoft bringing Vista to market, and the fact that it doesn't seem to have any compelling features for upgrading. The last paragraph of the story says 'Boycott Vista. Keep your old Windows XP PC around. Don't buy a new one. That's the only way we have to let Microsoft know Vista is an overhyped, late, and pointless update to XP — a perfectly fine operating system.'" Relatedly, torrensmith writes "Paul Thurrott is at it again with his seemingly never-ending supply of information about Windows Vista. This time, he discusses the things he dislikes about the program, in the article The Dark Side of Windows Vista RC1."

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756 comments

Flaimbait this is (-1, Flamebait)

davevt5 (30696) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068080)

O. Thomas is trying to pull a John Dvorak and Flaimbait himself to popularity. At least we know what to expect with Dvorak. Is Owen Thomas a journalist or a columnist? If he's a journalist then Business 2.0 just lost a few notches of credibility as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, Vista is delayed - and the number of people who are going to go out and buy it are limited. But I for one am looking forward to Vista coming out so I can upgrade my new Mac Book Pro from OS X to Vista.

Re:Flaimbait this is (2, Insightful)

tehwebguy (860335) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068109)

why?

what features are you looking forward to in vista? i'm not trying to flamebait or troll, i just want to know what you are looking forward to.

Re:Flaimbait this is (0, Troll)

davevt5 (30696) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068187)

I'm glad you asked. My comments aren't meant to be flaimbait either. But I'm just a guy. Owen Thomas is a journalist for a fairly-respectable magazine.

I made the 'switch' to Apple a few months back. Half of it was because of the hardware and the other half was the advanced GUI of OS X. I have been a Windows(TM) desktop user prior to that (I use Linux for all servers). For me, productivity is important. And clicking around w/ a mouse is not the way to do it. I'm still learning shortcut keys on OS X but what I have found is that it is incredibly inconsistent. Simple 'highlight current position to the end of the line' shortcuts vary from application to application.

So while I love the UI of OS X, the consistency of it is not there yet. I want the latest AND the greatest. And whether people like it or not, when Vista comes out, it will be both.

Re:Flaimbait this is (1)

himurabattousai (985656) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068292)

So while I love the UI of OS X, the consistency of it is not there yet. I want the latest AND the greatest. And whether people like it or not, when Vista comes out, it will be both.

I think you misspelled something there. It should be "the latest AND the grate-est." As in, I hope Vista is declared D.O.A. once it ships because all the crap MS decided to load into it is so damn annoying. Neither Vista nor XP does anything that my tried and true Win2000+SP4 doesn't do, other than impose silly restrictions, of course.

Re:Flaimbait this is (2, Informative)

iluvcapra (782887) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068323)

Simple 'highlight current position to the end of the line' shortcuts vary from application to application

In just about every text entry box in Mac OS X, Apple-Shift-RightArrow will deliver the desired result; in carbon and cocoa the base TextView class has the same behavior, and everybody uses NSTextView unless they're using a decades-old or explicitly cross-platform UI codebase. I can think of a few programs that break this rule, but they're extremely rare -- however I am aware one particularly-popular productivity suite that does not conform to the selection keybindings, on account of legacy behavior and a cross-platform codebase.

Re:Flaimbait this is (4, Insightful)

walt-sjc (145127) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068339)

So exactly what ARE the new features of Vista that are compelling? All I'm reading is that you don't like OSX. The question was not about OS X, it was about Vista.

Re:Flaimbait this is (0, Troll)

voice_of_all_reason (926702) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068235)

what features are you looking forward to in vista?

Isn't that the point? Not only are we not getting any (useful) new features, but ones that already exist are being removed vias digitally restriction management.

Re:Flaimbait this is (1)

MustardMan (52102) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068118)

upgrade my new Mac Book Pro from OS X to Vista.

Right, O. Thomas is the troll with the flamebait...

BUSINESS 2.0 CONFIRMS (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068122)

Malda is irrelevant.

Re:Flaimbait this is (5, Insightful)

fyngyrz (762201) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068153)

Vista's extreme support for DRM is my concern. I realize that XP also supports DRM in various ways, but Vista has quite a focus on it, and I'm not inclined to support that. That's what made XP my last Windows purchase. I bought an early Mac mini, and I've been nothing less than delighted with the thing. Feels like my linux machines, only prettier and a lot friendlier. Going to buy another Mac soon.

Apple's pushing DRM in a big way too; but Microsoft dominates the market and that's who I think the message needs to go to. In the meantime, buying MP3, staying away from iTunes AAC media, and supporting anyone who posts actual uncompressed, high-quality audio is the way to go. Vote with your wallet. That is the only thing these companies pay attention to. Every time you buy iTunes or any other proprietary DRM'd solution, you're screwing yourself and everyone else. And not in a fun way.

Re:Flaimbait this is (1)

sgt scrub (869860) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068230)

I will save you guys mod points. This response is:

+5 Flame Bait.

You have it all wrong. Well, your post IS tripe but... If the article was simply, "Windows Vista isn't worth buying because it is crap so don't even consider it", it would be flame bait; and, perfectly correct as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately for us, the previous article writen by this author listed things that he found acceptable. He obviously wasn't wearing his glasses that day.

A good rule of thumb for software purchasing is: If the label says Microsoft the GUI center is shit.

so, is MS okay to bundle now? (4, Insightful)

yagu (721525) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068085)

Is the decree of consent over? In Paul Thurrott's article, aside from the refreshing observation Mr. Thurrott is willing to critique as well as fawn, I find it notable he picks one example where MS has been inconsistent and stupid (I agree) with their navigation ergonomics.

From his article [winsupersite.com], it's pretty clear MS is shipping a DVD maker, and from just one screen it appears to be a video/other type of application. Is this now considered de rigeur intrinsic Operating System? I know the definition of OS has blurred and been trickier to pin down, and I would expect an OS to have the appropriate drivers to allow burning of a DVD (it is after all, a component of the OS, or at least drivers for a DVD burner are).

If I were ROXIO or NERO, I'd be pissed, this looks like a de facto and direct competitor product, and if it's bundled as "part of the OS", it would seem close to the line of leveraging again.

And later in Thurrott's article he mentions the builtin virus checking -- something previously discussed on slashdot -- this also seems like another market niche MS is conveniently incorporating as part of their OS.... (how about making an OS much less susceptible to this in the first place?).

Is MS free to do this now?

As for boycotting Vista, I wish the world would consider, but it won't. And, I'll have to have some Vista machine and exposure to continue to pretend to support friends and family. Everything I've read about Vista bolsters the view there is not much new worth the upgrade, and there's enough annoying to induce a ferocious case of buyer's remorse.

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (5, Insightful)

BootNinja (743040) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068126)

If they're encorporating DVD burning software into vista, they're probably doing it the same way that XP introduced CD burning. They licensed the software from Roxio. Roxio probably has absolutely no problem with getting some money everytime somebody buys a copy of Windows.

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (1)

walt-sjc (145127) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068195)

I think the major point being made is that there is no compelling reason to upgrade - especially in light of the fact that you will most likely need to invest in additional hardware such as a new video card, memory, etc. That pushes the cost of vista close to that of a brand new machine with an OEM version of Windows (not to mention the fact that upgrading system components is beyond the ability of many users. Heck - they have enough problems just hooking a printer up!)

I have no problems with an OS providing basic functionality like media players, anti-virus technology, DVD recording and such. This still leaves room for other companies to provide enhanced capabilities. I DO have a problem however when bundled functionality ignores standards or attempts to push new proprietary "standards" (IE and WMP being two major examples.)

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (5, Informative)

RevDobbs (313888) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068326)

I think you hit the nail on the head: the article is about not upgrading every PC in your 50-office company, and is not about not buying new PCs.

The author states that there is no compelling reason to purchase an upgrade, and I'd have to agree. What makes Vista better than XP besides more eye candy and sane default security settings? Any competent power user should have the sense to not be logging into their desktop as an admin, and production installations by big companies (should) already have their end-users' PCs locked down to prevent lusers from hurting themselves.

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (1)

theneb (732287) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068199)

"....a perfectly fine operating system", wtf??? But i agree, fcuk vista! That wont stop them from completely turning off updates to xp (like what they did to xp SP1) and forcing users to upgrade or be loeft out with a system full of security issues. Take all this or, get a mac or load *nix on present machine. Thats ok for the more "technical" people, what what about the majority of consumers? Are they in a position to say this?

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068200)

You already have a Vista machine. The one in front of you, you've been testing for the past five years, MS boy.

-ps: What's this new attitude in slashdot? People say $opinion and then say "I'm definitelly going to buy that". One philosopher said "often the example is more persuading than arguments". Instead of arguing logically, people these days put up themselves as the example average customer. *that* is hype.

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (1, Insightful)

brunes69 (86786) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068202)

If I were ROXIO or NERO, I'd be pissed, this looks like a de facto and direct competitor product, and if it's bundled as "part of the OS", it would seem close to the line of leveraging again.

Then how come all the Apple fanboys on Slashdot ddidn't cry foul when Apple started shipping iLife with all their Mac's?

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (0)

Yahweh Doesn't Exist (906833) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068240)

>Then how come all the Apple fanboys on Slashdot ddidn't cry foul when Apple started shipping iLife with all their Mac's?

2 reasons:

1. Apple is not a convicted abusive monopolist
2. iLife is a separate suite, not part of the OS, but you get a copy when buying a Mac. it's more like how you now get a remote control with all new Macs and an iSight camera with all new Macs with displays.

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068259)

> 1. Apple is not a convicted abusive monopolist

You got the "convicted" part right. I remember the 80's well.

> 2. iLife is a separate suite, not part of the OS, but you get a copy when buying a Mac.

Wow, does it hurt to contort your justifications that badly?

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (1, Insightful)

Yahweh Doesn't Exist (906833) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068334)

>Wow, does it hurt to contort your justifications that badly?

wtf are you talking about, anonymous troll.

MS sells the OS Windows. There is no need to include "3rd party" functionality.

Mac sells computers, the complete package, "just works out of the box". They are selling the integrated experience when they sell you a Mac.

When they sell you OS X they are selling an OS, like MS does. That's why you don't get iLife.

Does it scare you to not be able to comprehend very simple concepts like these?

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068254)

Convicted monopoly. Microsoft gets less freedom as a result of abusing it previously.

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (3, Informative)

Senjutsu (614542) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068293)

Oh, I know this one! Because there was no consent decree Apple was involved in that was supposed to put a legal damper on that sort of behavior. What with the not being a monopoly and all.

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (1)

SomeGuyTyping (751195) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068269)

I'm responding to this on Vista Beta 2. There are a few things I need to get used to, but that was the reason I installed it. I know I'll have to buy new machines for my company and I'll need to know how to get around. Configuration screens are in different places now, so any windows sys admin or it tech will need to get familiar with them.

It does seem pretty stable (afa windows goes) and I like some of the eye candy. I'll be trying out RC1 in a week or two to see if there is a difference.

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (1)

pete6677 (681676) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068369)

Other than a few things in different places, can you answer the question that everyone is dying to know: what new features does Vista actually have? Will my business improve in any way if I buy it? I'd like to hear it straight from a corporate user such as yourself.

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068270)

Is the decree of consent over?

The decree is due to expire on November 12, 2007* - probably just in time for RTM.

*except for a few issues concerning communication protocols

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (1)

xenocide2 (231786) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068327)

On the one hand, I dislike MS and feel sorry for Nero and all. On the other hand, I can't see why MS should be barred from doing this, but Linux distros not barred from providing k3b by default.

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (1)

pubjames (468013) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068341)

As for boycotting Vista, I wish the world would consider, but it won't.

Actually, I'm amazed how many people I know that are considering switching to Mac, and some that have done.

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068342)

"If I were ROXIO or NERO, I'd be pissed, this looks like a de facto and direct competitor product, and if it's bundled as "part of the OS", it would seem close to the line of leveraging again."

Yeah, I'd be pissed if I were forced to innovate and make a better product, too.

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (3, Interesting)

carpeweb (949895) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068355)

OK, I get that it's bundling; and I get why that's "bad".

But, isn't burning a CD or DVD essentially I/O? (OK, maybe just O.) IANASA, but that sounds a lot like a basic OS function to me. Yeah, I know it's a direct competitor to existing "products". Existing products that exist because a basic OS function was ... overlooked?

I'm trying not to be a smart-ass about this (but I was never very good at restraint). So, is it ok for MS to bundle basic OS functions with their OS?

Re:so, is MS okay to bundle now? (1)

TemporalBeing (803363) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068370)

From his article, it's pretty clear MS is shipping a DVD maker, and from just one screen it appears to be a video/other type of application. Is this now considered de rigeur intrinsic Operating System? I know the definition of OS has blurred and been trickier to pin down, and I would expect an OS to have the appropriate drivers to allow burning of a DVD (it is after all, a component of the OS, or at least drivers for a DVD burner are).
It's really just Windows Movie Maker, which has been available (and possibly even shipping with) Windows since Windows ME. So, it's nothing new. And it's features in Vista aren't that great, so it's not really anything for competition at the moment - almost anyone else's will do a better, easier job.

Per upgrading, Aero/Glass is a ton better than anything WinXP had. My use of Beta2/pre-RC1 puts Vista on the upgrade level of Win3.11 to Win95, almost. But it is a good overhaul. It still has a ton of issues that are generally specific to the Windows platform (security, etc.), but it's a good first step in the right direction for a lot of stuff. I still won't buy it - the only version that Microsoft is releasing that will be close to the stuff in Beta2/pre-RC1/RC1 will be the Vista Ultimate version, which looks (at least from the Canada pricing a while back on /.) like it was going to be around $500 - and it's not worth that. (I'd probably be willing to pay the $90 for it that I paid for the WinME upgrade, but that also came with a Zip drive. I still like Linux better.)

You dare refuse to pay? (2, Funny)

Un pobre guey (593801) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068102)

How dare you refuse to pay The Tax! You must upgrade immediately or you will be summarily terminated. It is not up to you to decide.

OK... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068106)

they had me right until the point where they say "XP is a perfectly fine operating system".

Re:OK... (3, Informative)

ohearn (969704) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068180)

XP is a perfectly fine operating system. I haven't had any of my boxes crash in years (including my XP box or my wife's XP box). The only crash of a machine I have had in the past several years was my laptop overheating when the fan had to be replaced and that was a hardware failure. For what most people use a computer for Windows does just fine. Do I wish it was cheaper?, YES. Windows tends to have much better product support than other platforms most of the time, finding drivers is not an issue like it can be for linux, and as long as you have a user smart enough to avoid the majority or viruses and spyware XP doesn't crash very often. So yes, XP is a perfectly fine OS. Trust me if most Macs or linux boxes are abused the way the average Windows box with a ID ten T for a user if they would have problems too. I am not a particular fan of MS; I'm just tired of listening to Mac and linux fanboys all the time.

Re:OK... (5, Insightful)

Wingsy (761354) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068307)

"... as long as you have a user smart enough to avoid the majority or viruses and spyware XP doesn't crash very often."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Re:OK... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068222)

Well, it may not be perfectly fine, but for a large number of users it is tolerable enough to not make them want to immediately switch to something else.

Re:OK... (4, Funny)

Reverend528 (585549) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068298)

Well, it may not be perfectly fine, but for a large number of users it is tolerable enough to not make them want to immediately switch to something else.
Clearly Windows XP has failed where Me succeeded.

Ahead of them on that one (3, Interesting)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068113)

I'm not buying another version of Windows. I don't care how good they say it is. I was told Windows 95 would be awesome, it was suffering incarnate. I was told Windows 98 would be great, they started putting in irritating behaviour and it was still a pain to do things with. I was told Windows XP would be great, it's widely credited with being worse than Windows 98.

Next for me is either Mac or just throw everything I don't have in Linux into Linux. At least that way I stop paying a tax every few years to enrich people who have been very careless with security while at the same time trying to control everyone's market by bundling everything under the sun into it.

I think Vista could be the best thing Microsoft ever did for Apple or Linux.

Re:Ahead of them on that one (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068127)

it's [Windows XP] widely credited with being worse than Windows 98.
Yeah, by idiots!

Re:Ahead of them on that one (1)

MindStalker (22827) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068165)

Ok, seriously now that you are used to XP would you really go back to 98?

Anyways, I completly agree on Vista, XP is a good product there really isn't much reason to upgrade.

You will evententually be forced into Vista, in a year or less you will NOT be able to purchase a computer with XP on it. You might be lucky and have a way of getting XP license cheaply so that you can wipe Vista and reinstall. Eventually everyone else will have Vista, and you will not be compatible. :) Sounds like fun hu. Ubuntu I hear your cries, and I'm coming my sweet!!!

Re:Ahead of them on that one (5, Insightful)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068175)

I was told Windows XP would be great, it's widely credited with being worse than Windows 98.


Buh...what?

Look, I'm no Microsoft fan, but that just seems crazy. Better for what?

Re:Ahead of them on that one (1)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068201)

I'm puzzled how XP is worse than '98 and who is saying that other than maybe a person that plays eight year old games. I suppose if you have a system on 98 that's working well enough for its task, then keep it with 98, but if you have a newer system, then XP is the way to go. Frankly, XP is a lot more stable such that most users don't encounter the BSOD very often, which is usually not the case with 98.

Re:Ahead of them on that one (1)

CrazyTalk (662055) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068276)

Mod parent down as troll - no one ever claimed ANY version of Windows would be great!

Re:Ahead of them on that one (1)

LandoCalrizzian (887264) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068320)

I was told Windows XP would be great, it's widely credited with being worse than Windows 98.
Linux|Mac Fanboy aside. Not even Linus or Steve J. would agree to that.

Re:Ahead of them on that one (2, Funny)

grant420 (985416) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068367)

"I was told Windows XP would be great, it's widely credited with being worse than Windows 98."

Apparently ackthpt thinks BSODs (blue screens of death) are a good thing. Seriously how can you consider yourself intelligent if you think XP is worse than Win98? Oh, nevermind I get it: you are a Mac user.

Boycot XP a useless update to Windows 2000. (5, Insightful)

HornWumpus (783565) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068116)

A perfectly fine operating system.

Boycott Linux 2.6, Linux 2.4 perfectly fine. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068173)

Try reading some technical documentation sometime and see if you can't find anything wrong with that subject. If you don't, then feel free to keep on posting at the intellectual level of a broken mop handle.

Re:Boycott Linux 2.6, Linux 2.4 perfectly fine. (1)

BobNET (119675) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068238)

There isn't anything wrong with your subject ("Boycott Linux 2.6, Linux 2.4 perfectly fine."), because Linux 2.4 is perfectly fine.

Re:Boycott Linux 2.6, Linux 2.4 perfectly fine. (1)

Klaidas (981300) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068285)

But isn't this what Slackware's doing?

Re:Boycott Linux 2.6, Linux 2.4 perfectly fine. (1)

slack-fu (940017) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068368)

You can choose 2.4 OR 2.6 kernels during the slackware install. you can even...compile a vanilla kernel from SOURCE (WOW!)

Re:Boycot XP a useless update to Windows 2000. (1)

walt-sjc (145127) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068279)

Yeah - it's too bad they never released an SP5, or at least another security rollup. I think we are up to 50 "critical" updates to win2ksp4.

Vista boycott (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068124)

Sure. No problem. Done.

Bah. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068128)

It's obvious to most of us out there that Paul Thurott is a paid plant for Microsoft. Why do we keep talking about his articles, especially at a site that's as heavily Linux-biased as Slashdot?

Super-Fan 1000 (1)

nova_ostrich (774466) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068332)

He's definitely a big Microsoft fan, but his article that we're talking about is pretty harsh on some serious issues with Vista RC1. If Super-Fan 1000 thinks you did something wrong, that means it's probably quite bad.

How about this aspect? (1, Insightful)

PreacherTom (1000306) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068132)

Everyone loves to consider the effect of Vista on XP... But what about 98? There are still thousands and thousands of business machines churning away on 98, which Microsoft has already tried to phase out. This is just another necessary step in that process to Gates and Co. Vista will drive continued XP sales as it forces these users to upgrade.

Re:How about this aspect? (4, Funny)

w33t (978574) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068181)

There are still thousands and thousands of business machines churning away on 98,

I don't think "churning" is the quite the right word, maybe "lurching" would be a better description.

Re:How about this aspect? (1)

jimstapleton (999106) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068289)

how do I go about voting '5 funny' on this. I can't stop laughing...

The idea of an ancient zombified '98 box is just hillarious though. I know they exist, but I still can't stop laughing at the though...

Re:How about this aspect? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068302)

"There are still thousands and thousands of business machines churning away on 98.."

And thousands and thousands of businesses go under every year. Perhaps there's a connection.

Same thing I said about XP (2, Interesting)

IPFreely (47576) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068136)

That's the same thing I said about XP, and the reason I stayed on Win2k way after XP was the norm.

Sooner or later, it will have something that you need and can't get on XP, or you will get a new PC that has it bundled (or you are not on windows anyway so you aren't part of this conversation :) )

Re:Same thing I said about XP (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068312)

or you will get a new PC that has it bundled


But that will do Microsoft no good, since the new PC would have a bundled OS anyway. It means only that they spent a lot developing Vista to get the same profit they would have got if XP was bundled instead.

The Mysterious Future (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068139)

That was a bit harsh, perhaps, but you have to remember that the Media Center UI that debuted in the October 2006 CTP (see my review) was also absolutely horrible.

This guy is one forward-looking pundit!

Obligatory DNF reference (-1)

Apocalypse111 (597674) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068143)

'Boycott Duke Nukem Forever. Keep your old Duke Nukem 3D disks around. Don't buy a new game. That's the only way we have to let 3D Realms know Duke Nukem Forever is an overhyped, late, and pointless update to Duke Nukem 3D -- a perfectly fine game.'

So what's the alternative? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068152)

From the article:

Boycott Vista. Keep your old Windows XP PC around. Don't buy a new one.

So what do I do once popular applications require more RAM than my PC's motherboard can hold? And is PC133 SDRAM even available anymore?

Re:So what's the alternative? (1)

fyngyrz (762201) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068177)

So what do I do once popular applications require more RAM than my PC's motherboard can hold?

Buy a Mac. Run crossover or dual boot to (any version of) windows when you need to. You can use all the RAM you want. You'll be happier all around, I suspect. I know I am.

Re:So what's the alternative? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068228)

Buy a Mac. Run crossover or dual boot to (any version of) windows when you need to.

Once Microsoft suspends sales and/or updates to Windows XP, how can I dual-boot to anything but Vista?

Re:So what's the alternative? (1)

Surt (22457) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068333)

I think most people are assuming that most other people have at least one copy of either win2k or winxp on cd/dvd, and that those OSs will continue to work for years to come.

I was able to install win98 from cd a couple of weeks ago ... that's 8 years.

Re:So what's the alternative? (1)

in2mind (988476) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068344)

So what do I do once popular applications require more RAM than my PC's motherboard can hold? And is PC133 SDRAM even available anymore?

Yes.PC133 SDRAM is available and I recently bought one.But the question is,would you want to use such a machine.

Two comments (4, Insightful)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068156)

1. If Vista is pointless, what does it matter if it's "overhyped and late"?

2. Would good does it do to send MS a message that XP is perfectly fine? Is any business going to stop developing new versions of sucessful products just because people liked the old version?

Re:Two comments (4, Insightful)

fyngyrz (762201) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068232)

If no one bought Vista, Microsoft would have to consider a different strategy. Perhaps worse, if so few people bought it that (a) they lost money on development and (b) they had to keep losing money on support, that'd really send a message to them. Messages like: We don't like DRM. We don't like bloated code that takes gigs of RAM to run. We don't like code that was written so poorly, or in such retarded languages, that it takes a 2+ GHz PC to get those applications / OS's running in less than sixty seconds. We don't like little "thought bubbles" interrupting us every few minutes to tell us some irrelevant thing like an icon on the desktop is underused. We don't like products that are buggy and are never fixed, but instead we are expected to buy a new product which, perhaps, may fix that bug but has a new set of its own. Don't kid yourself. Microsoft, like everyone else, measures success using currency and nothing else. When you don't buy, you've cast a vote that counts.

Vista isn't pointless. That's just hyperbole. It is misguided, which is something else entirely.

Re:Two comments (1)

TopShelf (92521) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068286)

Indeed, that's the only way to change their behavior - for massive amounts of customers (personal and business) to take a stand and refuse to purchase Vista.

Whoa, I'm getting some major deja vu here. Hasn't this been said about almost every new version of Microsoft product over the last 10 years or so? Based on the track record, I'm guessing Vista will be installed across the board within a few short years.

Does the average consumer read B2.0? (0, Offtopic)

awesomo2001 (991790) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068159)

Since Microsoft's main market is the average computer user, i.e., desktop sales of their OS, am I correct to conclude that said people don't read Business 2.0 and hence his call to boycott Vista will go unheard?

Re:Does the average consumer read B2.0? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068248)

"Since Microsoft's main market is the average computer user, i.e., desktop sales of their OS, am I correct to conclude that said people don't read Business 2.0 and hence his call to boycott Vista will go unheard?"

Considering that Dell is the largest computer maker by number of computers sold and over half of their computers are sold to business, I would consider a widespread boycott by >50% of the largest computer maker in the world's customers something that would be felt.

Re:Does the average consumer read B2.0? (1)

plopez (54068) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068348)

Really, as if anyone (by which I mean 90% of the computer buying public + most businesses) have a choice. And for those hold outs they just dump support, including protection from viruses, trojans, spyware etc.

I can see MS saying basically 'Nice network you have there, it would be a *shame* if anything happened to it. Did we mention that our anti-virus only works with Vista?'

The same thing was said about XP (5, Insightful)

ex-geek (847495) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068184)

XP was late and overhyped as well. Many argued that NT4SP6, W2K and W98SE would be enough for anyone. There were numerous predictions that companies and consumers wouldn't upgrade and stick with what they have.

But this didn't happen. XP was adopted, just like Vista will be adopted over time. Trying to stop this inevitable progression is really a complete waste of one's political vigor.

Re:The same thing was said about XP (4, Interesting)

walt-sjc (145127) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068324)

Hmm. Win2K still seems to be huge in the corporate world from what I've seen traveling around. I think the gratuitous random UI changes that simple cause support headaches and lack of compelling reason to upgrade is the cause of that. I still really don't see any major reason to go to XP from 2K (other than XP booting a little faster.)

As for me... (1, Redundant)

Lord Aurora (969557) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068189)

I'm reserving judgement on Vista until it's out of the gates. All of this pre-release speculation is normal, even expected. I remember when a newer version of our Toyota was scheduled to come out, everyone insisted that we shouldn't upgrade. The day after it became available, our old van exploded in a massive ball of fire and steel and discarded french fries.

Needless to say, we bought the new van.

Anyway.

Thought that might be relevant.

You know what really grinds my gears? (3, Interesting)

americamatrix (658742) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068190)

I'll tell you what really grinds my gears -

People saying Vista is going to be a terrible OS just because of so called computer 'gossip' they heard [hello juding a book by its cover]! I went a TechNet meeting last week on Vista. After sitting in an auditorium for 4 hours, listening and watching what Vista can do, I can't wait to upgrade.

Vista has matured greatly since Beta 2 (as I had run Beta 2 and am currently running Pre-RC1 right now and RC1 will be installed later tonight). I would greatly appreciate people actually installing it and then saying why its no good after they have something to back-it-up with.

Re:You know what really grinds my gears? (4, Insightful)

ergo98 (9391) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068268)

...
I can't wait to upgrade.

So basically, based upon a superficial, second-hand interaction with the system, you're boosting it.
I would greatly appreciate people actually installing it and then saying why its no good after they have something to back-it-up with.

Maybe you're speaking a bit too soon?

If Microsoft subscribed to more of an Apple model (at least the recent history model), releasing steady improvements at regular intervals, people would be saying "ooh, look, shiny! Oh look, now the fugly is dockable!". Instead Microsoft still has the terrible habit of trying to reinvent, but they're often running to stand still (or more likely running towards the wrong goalpost). So many times they've rewritten something, in the process ruining what they had.

Vista, for instance, has been promised as a complete overhaul of everything. Geez, I remember 6 years ago reading FUD about how we had to start getting ready for WinFS (I can't even remember what they called it then) because it was going to change everything. Same for XAML (geez, is that even around anymore?) and so on. So for half a decade+ Microsoft has been running on fumes.

Right... (4, Informative)

Klaidas (981300) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068213)

Boycott all you want - it will became a standard anyway. Just like [insert_windows_version_here] was. Justl like XP is. You want it, or you don't. It will.
Because changes happen. Welcome to the world of computing.

I'm jaded and even I actually like Vista (0)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068220)

I've noticed a lot of the nay sayers don't seem to have really used Vista on decent hardware. My 1 year old laptop [codemonkeyramblings.com] works just fine with RC1, and in fact the GUI is significantly slicker and more responsive than any XP installation I've used. I like Vista and think it's going in a kick ass direction. Vista is not appropriate for older PCs that are underpowered, but neither was XP when it came out.

If you buy a crappy PC, it's going to become outdated sooner rather than later. It's just that simple. As a general rule, I don't pay anything less than $1200-$1300 for a new PC. My laptop was going for $2000 a year ago before I got a $750 off deal. You can't buy a cheap POS for $500 and expect it to work like a $1500-$2000 (or especially $3000+) PC. How many of these mental giants would expect ferrari performance from a stock Civic?

Re:I'm jaded and even I actually like Vista (4, Funny)

ConsumerOfMany (942944) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068330)

How many of these mental giants would expect ferrari performance from a stock Civic?

I would guess hundreds of thousands considering the number of huge mufflers and space wings I see glued onto primer gray Honda's..

lnkbait (2, Insightful)

ednopantz (467288) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068224)

More accurate to say :

Paul Thurrott is at it again with his seemingly never-ending supply of linkbait, generating page views for his advertisers by beathlessly stating Vista is great one week and it sucks the next.

Business model built on growth (1, Insightful)

mwilliamson (672411) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068253)

Microsoft's biggest enemy is not Linux nor Apple but is rather Microsoft itself. Microsoft's entire business model is built on growth and expansion. They have now saturated the desktop and a major portion of the server market. Their quality has improved...and this is actually going to work against them since there is less and less incentive to upgrade. The windows 98 to XP migration was a no-brainer. XP is a lot more stable and capable than 98/95/me. Server 2003 is a lot easier to deal with than Windows 2000 ever was.

If Vista can't provide incentive to get current Microsoft customers to shell out money once again to sustain the financial monster of Microsoft, then Microsoft's place in the software market will shink in a way only remnicent of IBM.

I suspect when this happens, there will be a major but temporary dip it Microsoft's stock. Microsoft is well aware they're dead in the software market and have since poised themselves to emerge as the world's premiere media/content distributor. I'm going to ride this one for all its worth ;-)

Re:Business model built on growth (1)

KokorHekkus (986906) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068343)

Microsoft's biggest enemy is not Linux nor Apple but is rather Microsoft itself. Microsoft's entire business model is built on growth and expansion. They have now saturated the desktop and a major portion of the server market....

I fully agree. And then add the fact that they haven't been successful (in the economic sense) when trying to branch out in different directions. They tried getting into the television market a couple of years ago but scrapped that. The Xbox has only been one big economic sinkhole. Their mobile systems division has never made a profit either.

So they are hard pressed to squeeze as much as they can from their saturated market.

Re:Business model built on growth (1)

nursegirl (914509) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068351)

More people upgrade operating systems when buying new PCs than by buying the new Operating Systems independently. The only place where that isn't consistently true is in corporations, who buy the new Operating System when the old one is no longer supported. It doesn't really matter how great or awful Vista is. People will still be upgrading to Vista over the next few years.

The whole thing is Market hype (1)

gx5000 (863863) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068261)

The whole thing is Market hype. IT seems to need this sort of thing to keep it going, or else we'd still be at our desks running Windows 3.11 on Pentium 60's... Overhype, overprice, make sure they have to upgrade or lose support or functionality. And oh yeah, throw in some bells and whistles for the sheeples as well...They should come out with an XP Overhaul Update for $100 or less...They'd still make money, update the technology, and find ways to give us "Features" that may soon limit our freedom on our own freeking PC's...Vista ? Ran the Betas and RC. I saw nothing relevant that would make me want to keep it. XP on my pc's, 2003Server on my file stashes and unix on my web server. I'm not buying another copy of the white album on BlueRay when it comes out either. Cheers

Sure (-1, Flamebait)

icepick72 (834363) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068275)

never upgrade anything ever again. Stay with what you got. Never upgrade any software if the company has been late delivering it because it must be shit. Awesome argument. Even greater use of logical thinking.

Re:Sure (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16068290)

RTFA. Never upgrade any software if the company is delivering a POINTLESS update.

Re:Sure (1)

icepick72 (834363) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068306)

I didn't even have to attack the Pointless argument because the argument itself is pointless. By inference that makes your post pointless :)

Thurrot Proposing big changes? (5, Funny)

Senjutsu (614542) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068308)

Paul Thurrott:
Even calling this thing Windows Mail is an insult. The Windows name should only be added to first rate products.

But what would they call their operating system, then?

Who cares? (2, Insightful)

ultramrw21 (889103) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068309)

Wow guys, from your reactions it seems as though you don't like windows vista, or xp. What a fucking suprise. I know everyone here says that xp is crappy and unstable, but iv been running it on one of my systems with no problems (except for a few hardware fuckups). Hell, i was running another system on 98 for a solid five years without any thing to worry about until i broke down and got another xp license. For many people xp just plain works, and im sure vista will be the same way. For a grand majority of consumers that all the matters, frankly i have more important shit to worry about instead of making sure i can find hardware and device drivers for linux and that i can actually play the game i just purchased. Everyone knows vista is going to be the new standard and will be used in most new systems, if you want to bother complaining about it, go on. btw, im not trying to flamebait or troll, im just tired of reading this crap, on my xp system that has been running for 6 months straight i might add.

Re:Who cares? (1, Offtopic)

gx5000 (863863) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068360)

I would think that most of us Like XP and Unix variants. But as you know there is the silent Majority that reads, and the Vocal minority that posts...Have a great week end !

Something analysts are forgetting... (5, Interesting)

RobertM1968 (951074) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068346)

MS is making big deals with resellers to push Vista to non-Vista computer users. I work for a CompUSA in NY, and we are soon going to be required to do a Vista analysis on every machine that comes in for service to "advise" the customer of all the "reasons" they should be replacing XP/NT/etc with Vista: "multimedia advantages", "better performance", "better security", "the neat UI experience", and infinitum. Will we? Well, not at this store (we WILL have to run the stupid thing, but we won't be recommending it - which alone can get us into trouble). MS also has deals with resellers where we get credits (towards what, corporate hasnt been clear about - but they make it sound very important to our future business model) for each copy of Vista we activate for a customer and choose CompUSA as the place of purchase. These credits are accrued for each online purchase through MS and their partners of any additional software the consumer buys.

All in all, it might not be what the customer wants, but MS is ensuring that resellers are doing their best to convince customers that. With their new online software purchasing model, resellers are seeing a need to do this so they get some sort of revenue (credits) for lost software sales that are supposedly going to be done online through MS and their partners.

Remember, reality doesnt matter... marketing and pressure on resellers does - most people arent computer saavy enough to know whether they are being sold a boat or a boat anchor we've tied around their neck.

-Rob

Done Deal (1)

snooz_crash (802357) | more than 7 years ago | (#16068361)

It's a done deal that Vista will be accepted. The upgrade community doesn't count. Most new PCs will be pre-installed with Vista and with each new machine purchase, the market share will go over the new OS. The future apps are already written. Resistance is futile.
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