Will the Solve-the-Riddle Hiring Trend Affect IT? 579
An anonymous reader wonders: "It's probably harder to find a good developer, than for a developer to find a job. Seems to be a Google-riddle trend; rather than caring about references/diplomas/resumes, employers are using solve-this-and-you-have-a-job approach, not even caring about any usual information. Does that give decent graduates/talented unexperienced devs/homegrown coders a chance at the corporate job, or does it alienate potential matches?"
It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the ability to solve puzzles is tightly correlated with the skill set desired by IT. Because it takes an inquisitive and unrelenting mind to hit the hardest puzzles. If they like to do this for fun, surely they can do it well for a living.
Perhaps it's even more important than the education because of the way IT problems arise? I constantly tell my boss that I complete the crossword everyday at work without fear of repurcussions. I feel this keeps my mind nimble and prepares me for the day.
Isn't a college degree just a symbol that says, "Look, a whole bunch of people with good reputations threw a bunch of puzzles at me. Some were hard, some were easy, but overall I did well enough to pass through these puzzles. I retained some of the information and processes but that's not really important. What's important is the fact that I'm able to solve problems and paid to do it for four years."
So, in the end, I predict this will have little or no effect on the IT world at all. In fact, I think it's a better shift towards hiring the most qualified person. For financial reasons, I went to the University of Minnesota but people on the East coast imagine a backwoods podunk frozen tundra instead of an institution of learning when I mention it. If I'm a good puzzle solver, it shouldn't matter.
Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park (Score:4, Insightful)
The average network diagram is so convoluted that it can not be accurately put on paper. Having a mind that can actually grasp what's really going on is a rare thing. It's simply another puzzle to be solved.
-nB
Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park (Score:5, Insightful)
Real IT problems aren't as easy as the Sunday crossword. The problem being that different people are good at different puzzles. But if you're bad at problem solving, it'll show up in your lack of ability to solve puzzles.
Even our small network here at the office was ugly to diagram out. I was amazed at what a pain it was. And the guy who installed the IP-based phones could not do his job until he drew it out on the whiteboard. We ended up fixing his drawing, then revising it several times as we re-ordered the office a bit for convenience. But we had to draw EVERYTHING for him. With extensive labelling. And we also had to call things by the names he learned in school. It had to be 'FQDN' and not 'domain name' or he'd be lost. (He did eventually figure that one out and start correcting us when we just said 'domain name', though.) He's exactly the sort of 'tech' the puzzles would have made sure they never hired.
Relying solely upon the puzzles is as crazy as relying on any other single part of the interview process, though. Our office is extremely smooth, and most people get along with most everyone else. A year prior to my hire, the office was not like this. Most people hated coming to work, including the owners. They instituted a personality test during the interview process and things got better quickly.
Just 1 more thing to help weed out bad apples, that's all.
Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park (Score:5, Interesting)
Out here in Orange County, IGN Entertainment is infamous for their tests. I went in and nailed the interview. The next level to advance to was a test. The test was to implement a small web server (GET/HEAD commands basically) in C++ using *no external libraries of any kind*. They stated the test should take 3 - 4 hours. The specs were extremely vague and any attempt I made to get clarification was met with "do what you think is best".
They also mailed me the test late on a thursday evening, and were calling asking where it was the following monday morning. Problem being I was currently working 50/60 hours a week as well, and it just happened to be the weekend I was moving :(
I ask you then, how is anyone who currently *has* a job and perhaps a family supposed to complete a test like this? It seems like the most talented candidates would *HAVE* jobs and therefore find it much more difficult to complete the test. I rushed the program together because -- what choice did I have? It did not represent me well.
Looking back, the only appropriate response on my part would have been to say "Your requirements suck, and this is not a 3 to 4 hour job. Thanks but no thanks." The entire thing was a waste of their time, waste of my time. Maybe that was the test, to see if I'd tell them to fuck off.
Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park (Score:5, Funny)
Wow, I used to work there too! Did you know Fred?
Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park (Score:5, Interesting)
I once had an interview where they handed me a few lines of abberent C code and asked what's the output. I answered that it didn't matter, because C code should never be written like that. Production C code should never look like an entry in the Obfuscated C contest.
That was the wrong answer, of course, and I didn't get an offer, but I figured a sysadmin job at a place that wanted me to be able to read obfuscated C entries probably wasn't the place I wanted to work anyway.
Geoff
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Of course it was the wrong answer. The ability to analyze a bit of C code (whether or not you think it's "abberent") is an important skill, when determining what a piece of code IS doing as opposed to what it APPEARS to be doing or is DOCUMENTED as doing.
Re:Thought Processes (Score:4, Insightful)
That was what I learned about myself during the test. That *I* ignored my own good sense that the task was not reasonable, and that a true master would not have.
Re:Thought Processes (Score:4, Interesting)
I knew a guy who went into an interview and was asked to solve some intractable problem. He was able to point out that their request wasn't feasible and provided some alternate options. This story wouldn't be interesting, of course, if he hadn't gotten the job.
I suspect that even if a person couldn't have written a webserver in C++ in 4 hours, they might still have had a shot at the job depending upon how they approached the problem.
Battle-Hardened Veteran (Score:3, Insightful)
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it took me 20 seconds to google for and find a complete web server in under 200 lines of code
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/eserver/lib
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Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park (Score:4, Insightful)
Writing a simple web server is trivial. It doesn't even need to be multi-threaded, though it wouldn't be difficult to make it serve multiple connections at once with select.
Someone who can't write the code to parse out a GET request is pretty lame. Heck, you SHOULD be able to write it all in 3-4 hours using nothing but system calls, no section (3) library calls at all. That is, you get to use socket, select, open, read, write. Write your own damned string parsing routines, most of them are about 3-15 lines long. No, you don't get to use malloc; include (and check) reasonable limits on string lengths, simultaneous connections, etc, then you won't need to dynamically allocate memory. If you insist, create your own memory allocator, using anonymous mmap to get more raw memory, but it won't be worth it. Might impress them, though.
Suggestion: create an index file mapping URL to static file to return. Look up the URL, return the file. Manage the index file manually, with Perl, with shell scripts, whatever, they didn't tell you how to administer the server. If you're feeling slightly ambitious and want to impress them, include the ability to run programs with simple arguments passed in on the command line. Heck, you could even include POST and PUT support without too much trouble, but that might take more than 3-4 hours to get it all working just right, dealing with multiple processes and pipes that can block, etc, all while also dealing with multiple sockets, any of which can close or die unexpectedly, can be a bit tricky. I'd start off writing a generic process-handler library and integrate it with the socket handler so everything can be run off of one select (or poll) call. But, if you do that, come up with a better solution than CGI.
Specifications? All you need to do is implement a subset of HTTP. If you can't look up the specs to that, I certainly wouldn't hire you. Since they didn't give you any other requirements, I'd consider the job done when a standard web browser (your choice) can connect to it and follow links. It's not like you have to implement PHP or JSP or whatever for the thing! I think 3-4 hours is reasonable. If you don't, you obviously weren't the right person for the job.
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A more obvious meaning for their request is that they want you to write a simple web server without pulling in a bunch of libraries already written that implement a web server so that you can write "HTTPserver server = new HTTPserver(localhost, "http"); return server.process("/usr/local/http");" and claim you know how to implement a webserver in C++. "of any kind" simply means that they include string parsing libraries, socket handling libraries, error logging libraries, or anything else. "external" is m
Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park (Score:4, Funny)
The next level to advance to was a test. The test was to implement a small web server (GET/HEAD commands basically) in C++ using *no external libraries of any kind*.
So you had to GET/HEAD over a weekend? Was your wife allowed to help you?
Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park (Score:5, Insightful)
In the "real" world you'd be a fool to implement any of those things.
Re:I think you overestimated what they wanted. (Score:4, Funny)
Or maybe you use ASCII art in the source code to draw a picture of a waiter serving some HTML code on a platter.
Re:It Seemed to Work for Bletchley Park (Score:4, Funny)
College is a game (Score:4, Interesting)
No, it's mostly proof that you can play the game.
There are two games.
1. The technical education which is the following game.
They ask a question.
You determine what the real question is.
You find the right book.
You read how to answer the question.
You answer the question.
2. The People game.
You learn how to make people happy and play the politics and admin game. I think this is the real reason most education administrations are described as a nightmare, it's actually part of the learning experience.
Later you play the sales/job interview game. They're pretty much the same, only the product changes.
Re:College is a game (Score:4, Insightful)
But if you think you can get through a good CS program without learning puzzle solving or problem analysis, you're either an idiot or you went through a really bad CS program (which admittedly, are probably not in short supply).
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I assume it was solving a cryptic crossword [telegraph.co.uk] in under 12 minutes.
English cryptic crosswords are notoriously difficult, at least in part because of their assumed local knowledge (e.g. "Mayfair" stands for the two letters "WI".) I've seen one where virtually all of the clues referenced the answer of others - until you solve the key clues, you can't even start! Another had no numbers - you have to solve all of the clues first, then fit them t
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[Frank slams his hand on the table.]
FRANK: Do you know something we don't?
ROE: Yes, I speak about Landon Bryce in the past tense, because there's a system in place, gentlemen, one that constantly evaluates our youths and our lives with no application of relativity. A 4.0 will succeed, a 2.5 will not.
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(I only knew a couple of BASIC and Fortran variants before I got to college, and I'd never designed anything larger than a few thousand lines of code, so some of that stuff was new to me. This was back in 1981, after all, when not everyone had access to programming classes, and self-
Oldest riddle of all... (Score:2, Funny)
--Douglas Adams
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Websense (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Websense (Score:5, Funny)
It's just the goatse pic with "How?" printed below it.
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Re:Websense (Score:5, Funny)
I am so NOT hiring you
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I've used them (Score:2, Insightful)
I like this. It's a lot better than the usual asking for "ten years in a five year old language". Cool trick too. I wonder how many people won't even get to the "view source" option!
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Re:I've used them (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd much rather go with a series of standardized logic questions (pattern recognition, basic math story problems, etc...) and one question buried in the test that is intentionally vague or poorly worded. Because well defined problems are easy, it's the problems that are not well defined that really test us in IT. Seeing how a potential employee handles themselves in a confusing situation is just as critical as how they handle themselves in a well defined situation. I would stay away from anything that depends on a complex understanding of any given topic, because at this point, we're not looking for someone who has the quadratic formula memorized, we're looking at someone who can look at a situation and pull values from that situation to plug into a formula.
-Rick
Moo (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Moo (Score:5, Funny)
Hang on a tick... (Score:2)
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Of course, they say a joke isn't funny when you have to explain it, but I thought it was funny anyway.
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Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashdot? (Score:3, Interesting)
Or more precisely, I don't need a job in Quebec, nor do I particularly want to work with PHP for a living. So I wasn't particularly interested in submitting my resume and 'PHP code'. Still, it's kind of a neat site. I would encourage companies looking for high-end talent to do more of this as a recruitment effort. After all, it had me intrigued enough to solve their little puzzle (even if it was overrated) despite not looking to work for them.
Unfortunately, the comparison with Google is poor. Google requires that you have a Masters Degree (PhDs are preferrable) before they even give you their test. Then they're so secretive that they may never get back to you even if you complete their test perfectly. You'll never even know why they didn't get back to you, despite a promise to start an interview process after the test.
As a result, the two don't really compare.
P.S. The Prove Your Worth site really does track your movements via (some rather ugly looking) Javascript. So move carefully.
Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd (Score:3, Interesting)
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I've done the startup thing before. Insane hours are not my thing. Crunch time happens, but every day should not be a crunch. Life is for living. Even though you should enjoy your work, there are more important things than being at your desk for excessive periods of time.
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Google appears to pursue non-degreed people in a couple of different situations:
1. The early responders to their public Quiz sheet they put out a little while back.
2. You have a project, product, or unique knowledge they wish to acquire.
3. The position is not in a development area of the company, but is in a supporting function. (e.g. Customer Relations, Tech Ops, etc.)
Unfortunately, things seem to NOT work out with Google more often than they
Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd (Score:2)
Re:Can't solve the puzzle, so you're trying Slashd (Score:3, Informative)
What?
I don't know what "test" you are talking about, but no qualifications whatsoever are required to do certain types of engineering at Google. Specifically look at what they call "Google.com Engineering" or "Site Reliability Engineering". This is not some trivial job; they require very broad and deep knowledge across operating system design, pro
Answer (Score:4, Interesting)
I suspect that its not necessarily that you solve the riddle this instant, they probably want to get an insight into how you think and how you solve problems.
Problem solving is a huge part of developing software and an important quality to have in a candidate
The question that trumps riddles (Score:3, Funny)
Considering the resemblence of hiring trolls to Gollum, it seemed appropriate
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Hooray advertising. (Score:2)
So, then, what could the point of this submission be? Perhaps to drive posters to this website?
Bah. Screw 'em.
Solution (Score:5, Informative)
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That's step one, step two is to automate the reply to the form in step two. Not incredibly difficult, and they give you hints on what to use to do it (fscok, curl, snoopy). Since it requires you to use POST, its a little more than just manipulating the URL, but like I said, its not incredibly difficult.
That being said, this is probably not a bad way to screen out those who are incompetent. It would narrow the field down at least somewhat.
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That said, I've done the kind of automation that they're l
Puzzles are okay (Score:2)
That said, there is so many variables what makes a good/valuable employee that basing a hiring decision solely on one riddle can be silly.
But it's not going to affect IT any. I have the impression that some companies have always been a bit silly in this area, and some companies always had their feet on the ground and don't go for the latest fad/nonsense.
I re
I like this (Score:2)
Re:I like this (Score:5, Interesting)
Is your hiring policy so brain-dead that any blot on a criminal background check is an automatic disqualifier? Or is a potential candidate given a chance to explain? We live in times when it seems that everything is illegal. No one gets through a day without doing something illegal. No one gets through a month without committing a serious crime. (Well, at least that's true if you have a half-way fun sex life.) Is your requirement for a negative background check absolute? If so, why?
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2) If they tell you to do something illigal they don't want it comming back to them in the terms of "You hired a known felon..."
Yes (Score:3, Informative)
The policy, as originally stated, left no wiggle room whatsoever. Yes, that would be brain-dead. Zero-tolerance policies always are.
A sensible approach is to weigh the seriousness of the offense against the position and duties. Where I work, [irs.gov] for example, you get conditionally hired for the first year. We trust what you said on your application, bring you on board, and do a full background check during that first year. (Why do we trust what you said on the app? Because lying to us on that application
Riddle me this... (Score:2)
Riddles are a good test and gauge a person better than "you went to this school for this time period, got these grades, and then went on to do this job for a few years", but they don't mak
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They're good at a particular set of problem solving skills.
Let's see, what did I do yesterday
I am the go-to
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"eptitude" means "idiot shouldn't work here".
(Actually, I'm rather drowsy from some new meds, so burn away.)
Riddles work (Score:4, Informative)
Riddle solving evens the playing field for those that are skilled but may not have the resume to reflect their skill level. I know most hate the old saying that "those who can do and those who cant teach" but many times book smarts doesnt translate into real world performance. Being able to display the smarts and tenacity to tackle a problem head especially after others have tried and given up instantly gives you a "value" to the potential employer. I think most that dont like the idea arent comfortable with the idea that someone with a lesser resume might actually be better in real world situations.
Pay less attention to the answer (Score:2)
Years ago I went through something similar during an interview. VP of sales comes in, hands me a piece of paper, pencil, and calculator and asked me to figure out how many gas stations were in the US. Came back about 10 minutes later and we discussed how I got to my answer and how we got to his. Both of ours were reasonable, though we were probably both off the actual number. I think he just wanted to make sure I came up with something
As long as they do it for every other employee.... (Score:5, Funny)
"The bad news is that you failed the puzzle exam, the good news is that if you can make this power point slide animate annoyingly while playing music, you're hired."
CEO/CFO/etc.
"Here's a knife and here's your mother, stab her and I'll give you $20."
Corporate Lawyer
"Look outside and tell me it's raining (it's sunny). Now write the most incomprehensible sentence you can. When you are finished, Bob the CEO wants to talk to you about another test."
Accountant
"See these two piles of cash on my table? When I turn around, you have five seconds to hide one so that I can't find it."
Marketing
"Tell me again how this pen in my hand can cure cancer?"
Sales
"I have several baggies of what appears to be baking soda on my desk, when I come back at lunch, they should be gone."
Intern
"When I say it's all your fault, you say ok. It's your fault."
Technical Support
"This button on the phone transfers the caller to another support person. Can you press it?"
Office Assistant
"Do you have experience with the mentally handicapped or young children? Meet Bob, your new boss."
It filters for one type of person (Score:5, Insightful)
Those who do well at solve-the-riddle interviews are certainly intelligent and can solve problems, but it's not necessarily true that they can solve ill-specified problems -- real-world problems that need solving aren't usually as completely specified as a riddle or puzzle.
There are other ways to conduct interviews that yield good candidates. Get the person to talk about his past work -- technical people who have done good stuff love to do this with great enthusiasm. You can then ask about trade-offs in thei designs and implementations. You can usually figure out whether the candidate was a key player in the work being discussed.
Another way is to describe a real-world problem facing your company, but without actually asking the candidate anything. A good candidate will be interested in yoru problem, ask questions, offer suggestions. If the candidate just sits there, s/he's not a good candidate.
Re:It filters for one type of person (Score:4, Insightful)
There are certainly tech support jobs out there which consist primarily of what we might call solving puzzles.
Generally, however, a technical person needs to be broadly competent, needs to have strengths in both analysis and design, needs to communicate well, needs to be able to manage relationships effectively, needs to be able to organize and prioritize effectively under directions which can be incomplete or ambiguous.
The best technical people are not just able to address the issues in front of them, they use them to generate leverage in making progress toward larger goals. They have to articulate and negotiate for those larger goals, which means they have to be sensitive to interests of other individuals, and to the potential for alignment and conflict among them.
These requirements hold especially for more senior positions. It's fine to be able to solve puzzles, but that's not most of the job. And as anyone with hiring experience knows, it's far more successful to gain senior people by letting them rise through the ranks than it is to hire them from outside the organization. Unless you make a point of attracting and hiring people who have that potential, you can risk ending up mostly with a whole bunch of puzzle solvers.
Even scientific research, which obviously tries to solve some very hard puzzles, is mostly driven by collaboration. I've seen generations of compuer science grad students come and go, and the ones that go furthest are invariably the most collaborative. Out of the practice of collaboration they seem to have an easier time understanding their work in context, and they seem able to pick up all the other necessary management skills along the way.
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Is it legal to do this? (Score:3, Informative)
To submit your resume, you have to construct a URL manually. The Angelides campaign in California is in trouble for doing that on Governor Schwartznegger's "speeches" site, where all they did was to look at the directory of available audio and listen to it, instead of just listening to the stuff that had external links.
If anybody cares, http://www.proveyourworth.net/?p=begin&mistake=lit tle [proveyourworth.net] gets you to their stupid form.
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And then you have to build up the URL as if some app had built it. The arguments are
p="auto_submit"&hash="number you get from form page"&referer="URL of form page"...
There's more, but you get the idea.
Some more relevant questions: (Score:4, Funny)
A. Build as fast as possible and hope for the best.
B. Cry and whimper like a baby, because you're completely screwed.
C. Pitch a fit to management/slashdot/etc about what sales did.
D. Burn the place down.
E. All of the above.
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It's a good filter (Score:3, Interesting)
It is a good filter when it comes to separating those who have relevant skills from those who are good at pretending. You can't cheat at "riddles". You can't talk and weasle out of them. You can't impress the interviewer. Don't forget that in HR, few if any people have relevant coding skills. Now, you want to hire a coder. The HR guy hasn't the foggiest what assembler or an export table is, but he should hire someone who can read assembler and understand foreign 80x86 code. How should he do it? Would you rather have the HR guy listen to someone rambling about his "achivements" and qualifications, or do you hand him a paper saying:
What does this do:
POP EBX
INC EBX
PUSH EBX
RET
(together with the correct answer, of course).
Which strategy do you think will give you the better qualified applicants for the final examination?
Re:It's a good filter (Score:4, Funny)
More often than not, crashes the machine.
Schwab
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POP EBX
INC EBX
PUSH EBX
RET
More often than not, crashes the machine.
Maybe so. A better question might be - Why would you want to use code like this or similar code? On the 65xx, one way of passing arguments to a subroutine was having them embedded in the code stream. So the return address is a pointer to your arguments. You deal with them, then adjust the return address to skip the arguments, push it, then return. So do I get the job???
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You certainly have a right to your opinion. It's great that there's a match between employers who do this sort of thing and people who like that sort of interview. I wrote a web page, Calculating Permutations and Job Interview Questions [bearcave.com] on this topic. What do I suggest for interview questions instead? How about detailed questions about the projects that the applicant has worked on, what exactly they did on these projects, how the solved the problems they encountered, how the software they wrote was st
Fundamental technological skill (Score:2)
Just when I thought interviewing techniques... (Score:5, Insightful)
...couldn't get dumber. This is flavor of the week type of stuff, folks. I'm lousy at riddles, but I win design award after design award plus bonuses in my engineering job. I have several patents. I'm sorry, but I just have very little patience for these Grand Unified Theories Of Everything when it comes to dealing with human beings. It just strikes me as HR people looking for ever lazier ways to hire the talent.
Also, Our IT people have that site blocked. I wonder what that riddle means?
best credentials (Score:3, Insightful)
IT is now so much about problem solving, why not test potential employees ability to do just that.
While it might once have been possible to already know everything about a technology which one was responible for maintaining, that's no longer how the industry works. When there's a new problem, we google. The better problem solver is the better hire.
My 'puzzle' experience (Score:5, Interesting)
Oddly I didn't get the job. They said I lacked the ability to document. Funny since I graduated with a degree in technical writing. Maybe they just wanted people to come in an debug for them in interviews.
Hey! We interviewed at the same place! (Score:3, Interesting)
So during the interview, they revealed that they were expecting to support about 1,000,000 clients with updates every minute. "Oh?", says I, "how much data are you pushing to each user every minute?" They answered with, "we're very efficient! Only about 1KB." "And how much bandwidth do you have?
How about an idea from Star Trek? (Score:3, Funny)
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I think "View Source" is the first thing that we all tried. The question is, did you advance onto more complex analysis techniques (such as tools that would show the page structure AFTER the embedded Javascript code ran) in an attempt to fully understand the page before you made an attempt at solving the puzzle?
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A) For the people for whom the site was blocked.
B) Common area for critique.
C) In case the page goes down.
The question is, did you advance onto more complex analysis techniques
Yes. The "mistake" is a tag in the script. Add it after the published URL, and it goes to the next form.
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1) If the site is blocked, giving them the source won't help them much. ;-)
2) If they can't find a way to get around a block, they're not very good at what they do.
It's the source code. It's gibberish that happens to have meaning to a computer. You wouldn't post an entire copy of Hamlet just to critique the existentialist meaning behind "To be or not to be" line, would you? No, you'd quote the relevant sections, then make your point
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Much better than the "quiz" I had to go through at a small start-up, which basically consisted of testing my knowledge of Java garbage-coll
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