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A Triple-Standard Disk

kdawson posted more than 6 years ago | from the blue-plus-red-makes-purple dept.

210

On the heels of the news of Toshiba's proposed double-standard disk comes word that Warner Brothers engineers have applied for a patent on a triple-standard disk. The new disk would offer HD-DVD and Blu-Ray on one side and standard DVD on the other. From the article: "Warner's plan is to create a disk with a Blu-ray top layer that works like a two-way mirror. This should reflect just enough blue light for a Blu-ray player to read it okay. But it should also let enough light through for HD-DVD players to ignore the Blu-ray recording and find a second HD-DVD layer beneath." See the patent application, filed last month.

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210 comments

f1r$t p0$7 to all you bitches. It's mine. All mine (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134049)

f1r$t p0$7 to all you bitches. It's mine. All mine.

Re:f1r$t p0$7 to all you bitches. It's mine. All m (-1, Offtopic)

gnaa323 (1001568) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134069)

congrats

Fuck Everything, We're Doing Five Platters (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134213)

Would someone tell me how this happened? We were the fucking vanguard of disk drives in this country. The Seagate Cheeta was the disk to own. Then the other guy came out with a two-standard disk. Were we scared? Hell, no. Because we hit back with a little thing called the ST-506. That's two-standards and an extra channel. For speed. But you know what happened next? Shut up, I'm telling you what happened--the bastards went to three standardss. Now we're standing around with our cocks in our hands, selling two platters and an extra channel. Speed or no, suddenly we're the chumps. Well, fuck it. We're going to five platters.

Sure, we could go to three platters next, like the competition. That seems like the logical thing to do. After all, three worked out pretty well, and four is the next number after three. So let's play it safe. Let's make a wider channel and call it the Cheeta turbo. Why innovate when we can follow? Oh, I know why: Because we're a business, that's why!

You think it's crazy? It is crazy. But I don't give a shit. From now on, we're the ones who have the edge in the multi-side game. Are they the best a man can get? Fuck, no. Seagate is the best a man can get.

What part of this don't you understand? If two sides is good, and three sides is better, obviously five sides would make us the best fucking disk that ever existed. Comprende? We didn't claw our way to the top of the disk game by clinging to the two-platter industry standard. We got here by taking chances. Well, five platters is the biggest chance of all.

Here's the report from Engineering. Someone put it in the bathroom: I want to wipe my ass with it. They don't tell me what to invent--I tell them. And I'm telling them to stick two more sides in there. I don't care how. Make the platters so thin they're invisible. Put some on the outside. I don't care if they have to cram the fifth platter in perpendicular to the other four, just do it!

You're taking the "safety" part of "safety disk" too literally, grandma. Cut the strings and soar. Let's hit it. Let's roll. This is our chance to make disk history. Let's dream big. All you have to do is say that five platters can happen, and it will happen. If you aren't on board, then fuck you. And if you're on the board, then fuck you and your father. Hey, if I'm the only one who'll take risks, I'm sure as hell happy to hog all the glory when the five- platter disk becomes the storage tool for the U.S. of "this is how we shave now" A.

People said we couldn't go to three. It'll cost a fortune to manufacture, they said. Well, we did it. Now some egghead in a lab is screaming "Five's crazy?" Well, perhaps he'd be more comfortable in the labs at Toshiba, working on fucking electrics. Rotary platters, my white ass!

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we should just ride in Sony's wake and make shitty game consoles. Ha! Not on your fucking life! The day I shadow a penny-ante outfit like Sony is the day I leave the disk game for good, and that won't happen until the day I die!

The market? Listen, we make the market. All we have to do is put her out there with a little jingle. It's as easy as, "Hey, saving with anything less than five plattess is like scraping your beard off with a dull hatchet." Or "You'll be so smooth, I could snort lines off of your ide cable."

I know what you're thinking now: What'll people say? Mew mew mew. Oh, no, what will people say?! Grow the fuck up. When you're on top, people talk. That's the price you pay for being on top. Which Seagate is, always has been, and forever shall be, Amen, five platters, sweet Jesus in heaven.

Stop. I just had a stroke of genius. Are you ready? Open your mouth, baby birds, cause Mama's about to drop you one sweet, fat nightcrawler. Here she comes: Put another channel on that fucker, too. That's right. Five platters, two channels, and make the second one SCSI. You heard me--the second strip is SCSI. It's a whole new way to think about data storage. Don't question it. Don't say a word. Just key the music, and call the chorus girls, because we're on the edge--the razor's edge--and I feel like dancing.

Re:Fuck Everything, We're Doing Five Platters (1)

rancher dan 3 (960065) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134548)

Dude, that is the funniest thing I've read in a long, long time. You ought to register; you'd kick the shit out of the iceholes currently getting the +5 humor points.

Re:f1r$t p0$7 to all you bitches. It's mine. All m (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134154)

you lucky barstool, i wanted it

Or they could... (2, Insightful)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134053)

...include two discs in the Amaray case?

[...]

Naaah. That's too easy.

Re:Or they could... (5, Insightful)

John.P.Jones (601028) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134079)

No, you see then the purchaser could seperate the discs (give one to a friend). Obviously the studios would not like this...

You aren't thinking nearly evil enough to be a film studio. :)

Re:Or they could... (4, Insightful)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134112)

Or they could stop acting like children, sit it down, discuss the technical and logistical merits of both and DECIDE ON ONE STANDARD FOR NOW. ...

Just saying.

Tom

Re:Or they could... (5, Insightful)

AusIV (950840) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134185)

Or they could stop acting like children, sit it down, discuss the technical and logistical merits of both
In my experience, children are better at compromise than adults who have money invested in something.

Re:Or they could... (2, Insightful)

kinglink (195330) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134614)

Or have a preference. Adults defend worthless stuff to their death. I mean sony has been constantly making bad moves and there's still people who say that they haven't even made the first mistake. Sad

Re:Or they could... (1)

archen (447353) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134232)

This is one instance I hope that both sides go to each others throats and strangle each other with no clear winner. However it works this must be pretty damn expensive so hopefully this will keep itself out of the regular price range for the forseeable future.

Re:Or they could... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134414)

This isn't about technical and logistical merits, it's about who owns the patents and the next standard.

Re:Or they could... (2, Insightful)

triso (67491) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134165)

...include two discs in the Amaray case?
They would have to charge extra for this since you could give one away. That would cause some revenue loss.

Not buying it. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134057)

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray don't look any better than DVDs on my 27" TV and I'm not spending $2,000 on a TV just so I can drool over PlayStation 3 games. Therefore I would recommend that you not buy this product. Furthermore I haven't met a single person who wants an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc player due to the crippling DRM and marginal increase in quality.

Who cares what you think? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134106)

I'm not spending $2,000 on a TV just so I can drool over PlayStation 3 games.

Err, HD capable sets are doing just fine without PS3 and if you're fine with your NTSC signal on your 27" tv, then more power to you. However, just because YOU don't think it's worth it, just because YOU don't see a need to watch HD content doesn't mean squat for the rest of the populace. Fact is, lots of people are plunking money down for new tv's that are capable of playing HD, you the manufs don't really care about.

BTW, the largest set in my house is a 27", but it gets used maybe 1/10th the amount that our 21" tv is. So I'm just as much a luddite as you. But it's obvious that every passing day, you and I are increasingly the minority.

Re:Who cares what you think? (2, Insightful)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134137)

Except we're not. Less than 10% of the US has HD. Less than 50% of new TV sales are HD. HD has failed in the marketplace.

Re:Who cares what you think? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134221)

It's the highest growing TV market, with the most profit, and the most amount of consumer demand. When's the last time you saw ANYONE drooling over a 20 inch NTSC CRT TV?

Re:Who cares what you think? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134251)

HD has failed in the marketplace.

You're kidding right? HDTV capable set sales are increasing. Less than 10% of the market, of course, you're looking at an item that has massive market penetration, even 10% of that market is HUGE and it keeps getting bigger. Pay more attention at your local Walmart (which is an excellent indicator of what the "regular" folk are buying). More and more sq footage is being taken over by flat panel sets, most of them are HD capable (barring a few of the smaller lcd's or cheaper ED plasmas). It might be form factor that's driving that market, but the fact is more and more HD sets are making their way into households. Anyone can see that that's where the market is moving, it may take several more years to really start hitting critical mass, but anyone who wants to be a player needs to get their ducks lined up now. Why do you think Sony is so hot to push PS3 and BluRay anyway, they know this and this is their plan (whether they can implement it is another story). Your statement is like saying that portable music players had "failed in the market place" the year before the ipod came out. It's where the industry is going, and it _will_ get there.

Re:Who cares what you think? (1)

forkazoo (138186) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134252)

Except we're not. Less than 10% of the US has HD. Less than 50% of new TV sales are HD. HD has failed in the marketplace.


And, just for shits and giggles... Is there any firm number on the percentage of sets with HDMI currently in use?

Re:Who cares what you think? (2, Informative)

be-fan (61476) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134341)

You're on crack. HD penetration has been growing tremendously quickly, to the point where the 10% number, which was accurate just a couple of years ago, has long since become obsolete. By the end of 2005, 17% of TV-owning households owned an HDTV. At this rate, by 2010, 57% of TV-watching US households will have an HDTV. That's less than four years from now.

As of June, 41% of all TV sales in the US were HDTVs. Moreover, HDTVs accounted for 81% of TV sales by revenue. At a point when a cheap SDTV can be had for $150, and even a cheap HDTV is several times that, 41% numerically is a huge figure.

There is no definition of "failure" by which you can judge HDTV as having failed in the marketplace. Not when its market penetration growth is over 20-30% year over year!

Re:Who cares what you think? (1)

Stripe7 (571267) | more than 7 years ago | (#16134771)

How many of these SDTV's or HDTV's can display 1080p? Without that capability there is no reason to buy Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.

Re:Who cares what you think? (1)

CrackedButter (646746) | more than 7 years ago | (#16134780)

25% of what you said seemed logical, 35.4% of what you said seemed to be plausable for arguments sake and with the remaining 39.6%, i refuse to believe, not yet, you haven't convinced me. Maybe in 2011 what you say might be 100% true. But for now that is how the statistics speak and incase you are wondering they speak for themselves.

Re:Who cares what you think? (1)

CosmeticLobotamy (155360) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134364)

It hasn't failed. It hasn't started yet. I know because I want it, am reasonably tech-savy, and don't have it. I will get it when it's straight-forward, predictable, doesn't involve modifying my house, and I can be pretty sure I'll be able to watch almost half the shows I watch in pretty-vision. That possible yet?

Re:Who cares what you think? (1)

OnlineAlias (828288) | more than 7 years ago | (#16134768)

Jeopardy just switch to HD...that should tell you something about adoption rates and demographics.

Anime Nerds (1)

rsilvergun (571051) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134294)

want HD-DVD. More space means higher bitrates means better picture. Blockbuster dvds from major studios look fine on even a 27" crt. Obscure anime from small publishers look pretty awful. Anime distributers often don't have access to masters, let alone the time to do anything with them.

Re:Not buying it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134568)

If your TV is 480p or 480i, then you're absolutely right since DVDs are 480p. I know someone with a 720p TV and HD DVD player. You can see the improvement, although often the grain in the movie is the limiting factor.

let me get this straight (5, Insightful)

rpax9000 (916267) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134073)

They can phase out old DVDs even faster now... you're paying extra for the HD content anyway, so why not buy the HD player? Seems like a new approached to planned obsolescence by Warner.

Re:let me get this straight (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134146)

The cynic in me says these discs are being patented so that they may never be used, thus boosting total sales of regular discs. Want the special super deluxe edition? Only on HD-DVD. How about the extended directors cut? Blu-Ray exclusive. Collect them all, you greedy bastards! Pour your money into the industry in a debauched frenzy of consumerism!! Mwahahaha!!!

Like I said, cynic speaking.

Re:let me get this straight (3, Interesting)

rpax9000 (916267) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134189)

I suppose this is an equally possible flip side.... I feel like any time I see a content provider patent a new tech, I get to thinking about how they are using it to maximize profit. Not that these businesses should have any other motive than profit, I don't guess, but at the same time I think we all need to be wary of any "technological advances" they are kind enough to offer the consumer. Of course, that leaves us with Sony trying to use content to sell us proprietary standards (rather than using a standard to try to sell us content). In any case I just get tired of it. Which makes the iTunes download I'm in the middle of even more ironic.

Ballad of Kathleen Malda (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134149)

You know the scene, we been dancing all nite
Your dick's gettin' hard and my pussy's tight
Pulled me to the bathroom and yr teasin' me
But I wanna go home so you can be pleasin' me
    It's gettin' hot, yr ready to go
    Say goodbye, head out the door
    DJ says, Stay one more song,
    Gives you more fuckin' tickets to get your drink on
You go back to the bar, start pounding Old E
    Should be home by now, should be poundin' me

Don't get 2 drunk 2 fuck (You got to get it up)
Don't get 2 drunk 2 fuck (If you want to get it in)
Don't get 2 drunk 2 fuck 2 nite
        We get home
        I get hot
        You pass out
        Sux a lot!

Way to go, shithead, you did it again
Now I'm stuck with my fingers and a ballpoint pen
Talked a lot of shit, acted like a pimp,
But I come home with you, and what, it's limp?
    Drinkin' Mickey's, St. Ides, High Life, Corona
    What good is it if you can't pop a boner?
    I don't care if you can't come
    But it better be hard until I'm done
I wanted hot beef (I got a cold noodle)
I wanted slap 'n tickle (But I got flapdoodle!)

Don't get 2 drunk 2 fuck (You got to get it up)
Don't get 2 drunk 2 fuck (If you want to get it in)
Don't get 2 drunk 2 fuck 2 nite
        We get home
        I get hot
        You pass out
        Sux a lot!

    I like to party, like to get fucked up
    But I'd rather spend the night face down, ass up
    Let's leave while yr weenie's still working
    'Cause I don't wanna spend the whole night jerkin'
Spill yr drink on me and yr covered in sweat,
Boy that ain't the way to get me wet
Don't come to my house to puke in my toilet
Don't sleep in my bed just to soil it
    Don't pass out going down on me
Or I'll wake you up with a mouthful of pee

Don't get 2 drunk 2 fuck (You got to get it up)
Don't get 2 drunk 2 fuck (If you want to get it in)
Don't get 2 drunk 2 fuck 2 nite
        We get home
        I get hot
        You pass out
        Sux a lot!

    Wake up!

Not Likely to be Used (1)

monopole (44023) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134084)

Given that all of the players involved are interested in achieving "network lock in" with their proprietary technology and their proprietary players why would they incorporate all standards at once.

Secondly, it obviates the need to replace all of your DVDs or buy a new player or two.

Finally with all of the different standards, Sony might mess up their DRM and allow their drives to play the disk.

Far too consumer friendly to work!

What's next? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134086)

The logical next step is the Fusion Disc, with five competing video formats on one side and an audio format on the other side. Also, lots of comfort strips.

Licensing (1, Interesting)

Future Man 3000 (706329) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134104)

If you buy a movie stored on one of these discs, do you have rights to six copies of that movie (the three on the disc + three archival copies?)

Re:Licensing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134281)

The rights to what, exactly?

Re:Licensing (1)

Mercano (826132) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134319)

What are these "rights" of which you speak? Even a school child knows that a media owner may only use the content as the copyright holder sees fit to allow them too.

I love the idea (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134105)

when can i eat the new sandwich?

*Blink* *Blink* (2, Funny)

jpellino (202698) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134107)

While working on the road for on The GLOBE Program, I routinely explained to fellow passengers that this was an unprecedented case of hundreds of thousands of kids collecting real environmental data in a dozen areas for use by top scientists, and was a cooperative project between EPA, NSF, NASA, NOAA, Dept of State & Dept of Ed. I soon learned the their universal, blinking amazement was never for the kids/schools/data part, but for the cooperation of 6 gummint agencies.

This is like that. Someone dare propose that all three systems coexist in a win-win-win scenario? Surely these are the end times.

Confusion (2, Funny)

corroncho (1003609) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134108)

This one is really going to confuse my Mom!!!
______________________________________________
Free iPods? Its legit [wired.com]. 5 of my friends got theirs. Get yours here! [freepay.com]

Re:Confusion (1)

Midnight Thunder (17205) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134418)

This one is really going to confuse my Mom!!!

I don't think its just your Mom its going to confuse. This sounds like one of those solutions that is so smart it is stupid. I mean this means additional costs, not really knowing which component failed if something went wrong (so who do you blame) and the extra hasle when it come to dealing with stupid sales people or the kid at your local video store. It also means that it is harder for any one publisher to add an extra layer for their movie.

In short, while an interesting idea, more effort should be made into providing simple solutions, not trying to expound multiple incompatible formats.

Re:Confusion (1)

ocelotbob (173602) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134600)

I disagree. This is a way to get beyond the format wars and allow people to make movies and not care about what format the disc is. Remember the bullshit of VHS vs. Beta, or CD-ROM vs. Floppy? This way, studios can make their product on one disc, and let the manufacturers duke it out for the player market.

Re:Confusion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134631)

This one is really going to confuse my Mom!!!

On the contrary, I think this is great. Since the blueray player is backward compatible and plays regular DVDs, the disc will play no matter which way she puts it in. That will solve half of your problems.

______________________________________________
By the way, you can take your free ipod and shove it up your goddamn ass.

Should? (4, Insightful)

CaymanIslandCarpedie (868408) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134116)

definition: "Should" - a work that should never be allowed in describing a patent.

So they really haven't figured out how to do it? So what they file the patent hope they can figure it out and if not hope someone else does so they can sue them?

Re:Should? (4, Informative)

kansas1051 (720008) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134265)

definition: "Should" - a work that should never be allowed in describing a patent.

Agreed, but its only the submitter who used the word "should" in relation to the benefit of the disclosed technology. The actual application is very clear that the technology produces a layered DVD and only uses the word should once:

"It should be understood that the discs in the drawings have been simplified for the sake of clarity and that various layers, including glue and resin layers well known to those skilled in the art have been omitted. "

Patent attorneys rarely use "should" in applications because an invention which only has a prophetic utility does not satisfy the utility requirement of 35 U.S.C. 101.

Re:Should? (1)

ColaMan (37550) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134410)

I know, submitter was summarising, but

1. "just enough blue light for a Blu-ray player to read it okay"

Plus

2. "But it should also let enough light through for HD-DVD players to ignore the Blu-ray recording and find a second HD-DVD layer beneath."

Equals

Discs that work on one player but not on another identical player. This will be a general nightmare for any owner of HD or Blu-ray DVD players, let alone retailers, who have to deal with a heap of "faulty" returns.

Curious... (3, Funny)

steveo777 (183629) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134118)

Did anyone else imagine Wile E Coyote in a lab coat at the ACME factory?

Curious...Brains and good looks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134266)

No, and it contains an important lesson. Never assume that the media companies are complete idiots. There are some smart people working for them, just like Microsoft has some smart people working for them.

shifts focus to price of players then (4, Interesting)

2ms (232331) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134119)

For one thing this probably isnt as perfect a solution as it seems because the disks will obviously be significantly more expensive than even the more expensive of either bluray or hddvd. For example, it will have to have that super expensive surface coating that bluray disks require since the wavelength of laser is so short (to prevent scratching).

But the more interesting thing is that if these were to go mainstream among the media providers, then success of each format in terms of players sold will be determined much more simply by price relative to the other rather than by a combination of many more factors such as movie catalog/availability, disk cost, what kinds of disks friends have, etc.

So, which of the two types of player is intrinsically cheaper and by how much? Does HDDVD have a huge advantage in the area of cost to manufacture players?

shifts focus to price of players then-FMD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134393)

FMD [wikipedia.org] would have been a better development than Blu-ray or HD-DVD.

Not so. (4, Informative)

rackhamh (217889) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134120)

Once again Slashdot shows its abyssmal understanding of patents.

This patent was not FILED August 10, 2006. It was PUBLISHED August 10, 2006. The actual filing date, shown later in the publication, is December 22, 2005.

It may seem a trivial, but in the digital media market, eight months can make the difference between being a leader and a follower.

Re:Not so - not so (1)

kansas1051 (720008) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134223)

The published application was filed December 22, 2005, but it claims priority to a provisional application filed Dec. 23, 2004. So, this application will be treated as if it was filed on December 23, 2004, just over 18 months ago. (U.S. patent applications typically publish 18-months after the filing of the earliest application to which they claim - 35 U.S.C. 122)

Re:Not so - not so (1)

rackhamh (217889) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134430)

But I wasn't talking about the effective filing date -- just the filing date of the linked document. You are correct, however, that for examination and patent term purposes, the date of the provisional filing is used.

Re:Not so. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134370)

Interesting: NotoriousDAN says the same thing (http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1968 93&cid=16134066 [slashdot.org]) and he gets a score of 1; whereas rackhamh gets a score of 4 + Informative!

Re:Not so. (1)

rackhamh (217889) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134442)

I posted with a karma bonus modifier, while NotoriousDAN did not. Therefore most people saw my post first. I'm sure it was not intended as a slight on NotoriousDAN.

How is this a step in the "right" direction? (2, Interesting)

HTMLSpinnr (531389) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134125)

How is this a step in the right direction - a common, unified standard? While this technology allows end-user technology ambiguity, it's not solving the dual standard dilemma. We need one standard.

Also, how would a dual-standard drive handle this if one should ever come to exist? Would the drive automagically see the BlueRay disc, the HD-DVD, or simply refuse to play because both are present (really bad design)?

And of course, will this increase the cost to the end user?

What about anti-competitive behaviour (1)

Freaky Spook (811861) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134379)

As anoying as two formats probably will be, its quite obvious both HD-DVD and blu-ray camps want to completly annihilate each other and exist in a monoploly.

If this disk was invented and publishers not aligned with either camp decided to go multi-format on the one disk, what would the ramifications be if either consortium decided to make things difficult??
Both sides have a lare amount of studios who could make things very difficult for anyone who didn't want to fall in line.

This could have the making of another huge anti-trust case.

Re:How is this a step in the "right" direction? (0)

NineNine (235196) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134542)

It'll happen the way that it always happens with multiple standards (especially with the shiny disks). Disc readers will just keep adding things that they can read, so it doesn't matter what you put in your drive.

A regular "DVD Drive" that you buy with no brand from China for $20 at your local store now reads: CD Audio, CD data, CD-R, CD+R, CD-RW, DVD single layer data, DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW, DVD double layer data, DVD+R double layer, DVD-R double layer, DVD-RW double layer. The new standards will just be incorporated the same way, so it doesn't matter one whit to the consumer as to what format the shiny round disc that they put in their drive is. The physical format is the same, so all it is is more software, and another read head. Big deal.

I mean seriously, when was the last time you put a shiny "CD" in your computer drive and had to worry about whether your drive could read it? My newest drive reads so many damn standards that they're running out of space for logos on the front of it!

Relax. Breathe. It'll all be OK.

Re:How is this a step in the "right" direction? (1)

AnyoneEB (574727) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134670)

Uh, where can I find one of these CD+R's? Seriously, is that a real standard or did you just throw that in there to see if anyone was paying attention? BTW, you forgot DVD-RAM.

Re:How is this a step in the "right" direction? (0)

NineNine (235196) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134703)

No, I'm pretty sure that there used to be CD+R's. I could be wrong. But, like the point I was trying to make, I don't even pay attention to what is what. When I buy blanks, I just care whether they're CD's, DVD's single layer, or DVD's dual layer. All of them really work equally well these days. It's only when the new standards/drives are coming out that you have to worry about what will and will not work. After a few months, the new drives all read anything, no matter how cheap the drives are.

Re:How is this a step in the "right" direction? (1)

RexRhino (769423) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134622)

Why is the right direction one common, unified standard? Doesn't having multiple standard formats prevent any one single format controller to abuse their position in the market (for example, requiring DRM in PCs that play the format)? Maybe if there was a completly free and open format (like ogg, but for video disks), then it might be OK to have one format... But being able to use multiple formats on one disk seems like a good thing.

I could already do this (-1, Offtopic)

neonprimetime (528653) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134127)

Thanks to Japan's Kao Corporation you may soon be able to rate a "bad hair day" on a scale of 1 to 10.

These discs may open some doors (5, Insightful)

slapys (993739) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134134)

Now studios can release one disc that is pretty much universally playable. This should go a long way to encourage the adoption of HD-DVD AND Blu-ray. If these discs become prevalent, and people realize that they could upgrade their DVD player to a Blu-ray player, and still play their last 10 movies, but in higher quality on their HDTV, they might actually consider the upgrade. As opposed to now, where people might not upgrade because they must buy NEW movies and start a NEW collection in order to enjoy what they see as "slightly" better picture quality over DVD (as well as massive DRM!).

If I was a movie studio executive, I would support these triple-layer discs at any cost.

Prayer to the patent gods (1)

merky1 (83978) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134136)

Please... oh please... don't allow this obvious patent to be approved.

Pertinent text highlighted... (2, Interesting)

Last_Available_Usern (756093) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134140)

"Warner's plan is to..." "This should reflect enough light..." "...to read it okay." "But it should also..." I'm not even sure they believe it'll work either with as much speculative wording as that.

good for them... (1)

grapeape (137008) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134142)

The only way either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is going to gain enough momentum to become a standard is if they release it an a non obtrusive way. Most people simply wont spend the money on the new equipment needed and there is a strong reluctance to having to "upgrade" their movies to a new "standard" this give an option for those who might see a desire for HD support down the road without having to make a full commitment. I know that I would probably pay a few dollars more for the option of having the higer formats available even though I dont have either player yet.

Designing in the margins of a older spec -- NOT! (3, Insightful)

kclittle (625128) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134151)

"Warner's plan is to create a disk with a Blu-ray top layer that works like a two-way mirror. This should reflect just enough blue light for a Blu-ray player to read it okay. But it should also let enough light through for HD-DVD players to ignore the Blu-ray recording and find a second HD-DVD layer beneath."

Oh, this sounds like just a wunnerful guarantee of problem-free operation on all the drives, Blu-ray or HD-DVD, that were designed and produced with really tight tolerances before this mutant format was conceived. No problems with marginal signals at all, nosireee, we promise.
-k

Re:Designing in the margins of a older spec -- NOT (1)

Ruie (30480) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134259)

I had somewhat bad experience with regular double-sided DVD disks lately - several I bought were warped resulting in unplayable areas. Does anyone else have the same experience ?

Re:Designing in the margins of a older spec -- NOT (1)

Babbster (107076) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134306)

Yeah, see, none of that is a real problem because there are so few Blu-Ray/HD-DVD devices on the market. Believe me, there were DVD players produced in the early days that have huge problems with "modern" dual-layer DVDs. Even my Zenith, produced two years after DVD's debut, could barely handle some discs released towards the end of 2000 (and later, of course).

Anyone who has bought (or will buy over the next year) a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD device should be an early adopter educated enough to know that a couple years down the line they may have to replace that hardware for reasons such as this fancy triple-format disc (if it ever sees production). Either that, or they should be making sure their device has upgradeable firmware that can accommodate such changes.

Format disagreements and this article (2, Informative)

LotsOfPhil (982823) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134179)

It seems like 2 markets were formed when the companies couldn't agree on one HD disk standard. Some of the same companies that couldn't agree are now going to step in with disks that work in both markets. Kind of lame.
I guess what I am saying is that if there was only BluRay, there would be no need for a disk that had BluRay, HDdvd and DVD. Convenient.

One More Nail In The Coffin (1)

mpapet (761907) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134182)

for next-gen media.

If one studio attempts to license the proposed CD format, how will it get made in a low cost manner? More specifically, you will need at least one manufacturer to build the machine to burn the media on a large scale.

Who in their right mind will build the production equipment for a -single- studio owned technology? Say they don't make the manufacturer pay extortion, what cd production house will invest in the hardware for a -single- studio?

At this point some joker must have the patent for 4:3 on one side, 16:9 on the other.

Misleading title (1)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134196)

This is NOT a "triple-standard disk". It's a hybrid Blu-Ray/HD-DVD disk, which happens to also use the other side for data storage (as opposed to a label). It's the hybrid nature of the two high-definition formats on one side that is worthy of excitement. It would be relatively trivial to, for example, combine the HD-DVD/DVD hybrid with a Blu-Ray surface on the other side. By the standards of this headline, that's a "triple-standard disk" even though it is just an extansion of Toshiba's project.

The significance of this is that it may allow the high-def format war to reach a compromise, or at least allow disc producers to hedge their bets by releasing high-def content in both formats. People might not buy Toshiba's HD-DVD/DVD hybrid right now because if Blu-Ray wins out, they're left with essentially a standard definition disc. However, ANYBODY interested in high-def could buy a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD hybrid and know it will work. Including the movie on standard DVD as well is nice for those of use that don't have a high-def player yet, but I'd actually prefer it to be on a second disk rather than the other side.

Double-sided DVDs are nothing new. I own several double-sided DVDs; usually widescreen on one side and 4:3 on the other. They're a hassle because you can't put either side on anything that might cause a scratch (like a table with a grain of sand). Both sides can be dual-layer and will play in any standard player.

Re:Misleading title (1)

Stonent1 (594886) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134230)

And all of the dual aspect ratio discs that I've seen were produced by Warner Bros. as well.

opaque proprietary media formats (DRM). (1)

GodWasAnAlien (206300) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134249)

Underneath drm formats some standards are used.
But this matters very little since those standards are hidden to the consumer or third parties.

The result is a non-standard format.

Only with a near monopoly can a non-standard survive.

Normally, if company 'A' sells proprietary music files, and company 'M' sells the the same music in another non-standard format, and company 'X' sells similar media, company 'X' will win.

Whatever... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#16134263)

...I've found that the biggest reason not to get a high-def player right now, is the damn selection. There's a bunch of movies I'd love to see in HD, but none of them are available and around here there's not a single HD channel to be had. Fortunately, the pirates have already solved my problem. 1080i30 movies (24p with 3:2 pulldown) are readily available for download, and is from what I've understood perfectly competitive with current Blu-Ray movies (15-20GB MPEG2). Not to mention I can store them on my file server, which I can't with the others unless I wait another five years for "Managed copy" in Windows 2010. I'd still get a player if I could get most hollywood blockbusters though... but as it is? Meh.

But the catch is... (1)

TheCabal (215908) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134307)

HV-DVD, Blu-Ray, DVD all on one disc. Cool.

But with the studios and RIAA/MPAA being the way they are, you will be licensed to view/listen to only one format.

I can't help but wonder (4, Insightful)

hurfy (735314) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134340)

Just what the shelf life of these would be. Assuming it works and they figure out how to press the disk it sounds VERY touchy.

How much of a scratch would it take to mangle the BluRay data that is being read off this semi-transparent layer. I thought those were pretty sensitive to start with.

How about the stability? Will any of the optical properties change over time of any of the several compononts involved? Will your new Disney disc last til your kid is out of elementary school?

All sounds like trouble waiting to happen to me.
Especially as the patent included a lot of SHOULDs to start with :(

oh well, pretty much a mental exercise as i am not going for either one for quite some time.

layers that I want (1)

hey0you0guy (1003040) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134344)

i want a hd-dvd layer meshed with a vinyl album. if you can do that without scratching the disc, I would be impressed.

This is a good thing! (1)

posterlogo (943853) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134354)

Such an obvious way to make a consumer pay extra unnecessarily will help kill the next gen formats. And I think that's a good thing.

Call (1)

TheSpoom (715771) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134360)

I call your triple-standard player and raise you a quintuple-standard BluRay/HDDVD/DVD/CD/floppy disk hybrid.

Bonus: If you punch a hole in the lower right corner, you instantly get double the storage!

Wow (3, Insightful)

db32 (862117) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134365)

So this actually looks like one of the first articles on slashdot that actually covers a real patent. Not some stupid lame one-click, conjugation, whatever other simple and obvious nonsense. This format for these disks actually seems fairly patent worthy.

All Crap (2, Interesting)

Xybot (707278) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134396)

DVD, CD technology are both crap, I'd say at least 25% of the time I have problems with playing a DVD (especially if children have been near it).

Surely we can come up with a better medium than these coasters. I have the feeling that 'Big Money' are more interested in built in obsolesence and format lock-in than in longevity and useability.

I'm still waiting for a digital storage/retrieval medium thats better than a hard-drive, surely that can't be too difficult?

Toshiba and Schick to merge (1)

Columcille (88542) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134423)

In other news, Toshiba and Schick have filed applications for approval of a proposed merger of their two companies. When asked about the merger Toshiba representatives replied that with Warner Bro's having added a third level Toshiba wanted to push the envelope even farther. Schick has already demonstrated a willingness to keep adding new levels in order to look new and innovative and Toshiba wants that kind of vision behind their own products, particularly as they look ahead to Quad-layer DVD's (to be called Quatro DVD's) and even on to merging future DVD lines with Schick's razor lines: a 5-blade, 5-layer device that will let you watch movies as you peel off the top layer of facial skin.

In the meantime, Apple is doing its thing. (1)

Yvan256 (722131) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134455)

I'm sorry but I don't want to handle media anymore. Today, I just rip my music CDs and use files from a huge library.

So forget the whole "which standard am I going to buy" nightmare and the costly playback unit that goes along with that decision.

Get your Mac mini and "iTV" right here. It gives you a really good operating system and amazing H.264/AAC streaming to your living room. It's an iPod for your TV.

They're putting HD-DVD on the wrong side (1)

daggre (631200) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134504)

They're on to something here (duplicate royalties aside) but trying to make the Blu-Ray side translucent is a bad idea when the other side already IS translucent! Putting a Blu-Ray on the flip side of a 3 layer disk (2 layers of HD-DVD, 1 of DVD) would be a good move though, and they could just let the Blu-Ray side be Blu-Ray - This would probably not work with a dual layer Blu-Ray anyway, which they will hopefully eventually come out with to get above 25GB on a disk. Personally, I really do hate double-sided disks though. I like to keep my movies in a CD holder instead of their cases so I can take them with me. When all the disks look alike (ie no silk-screen image on the top side) it's a real pain trying to tell them apart. I've pretty much decided on HD-DVD... I can't imagine that Toshiba is charging anywhere near what Sony would charge (being Sony) and I like the idea that I won't be paying for the studios to invest in new hardware to manufacture the disks since they can use standard DVD burners to pump out HD-DVD disks.

Pfft, what I'M waiting for is.... (2, Funny)

svunt (916464) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134610)

is a 12" vinyl record..on one side, backed by a laserdisc with an SACD embedded into its centre. When I buy one, it will come with a complimentary sample of the new "minidisc within a betamax" unit. Sweet.

mach 3 more blades = more blood (2, Funny)

kemo_by_the_kilo (971543) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134673)

this reminds me of the whole disposable razor crap.
then:
Mach 3 has 3 blades.. then shieck was like: well we have 5 plus one on the back because one blade wasnt that bad.
now:
we have DVDs on one side and cda on the back... to we have DVDs and HD dvds to we have HD-DVD-Rays
are HD-DVD-Rays as bad as X-rays?
... okay now im rambling.

Waste of time (1)

markdavis (642305) | more than 6 years ago | (#16134690)

Even if such a thing could be done, it would probably be the WORST of both HD technologies. Perhaps a single layer of each? A single layer of Blueray is not enough for later. A single layer of HD-DVD is not enough for later. Then you get a damn "flippy disc", so there is no cool label, no side you can safely sit the disc on while moving them around, and no light protection if you forget and leave it on the desk and the sun shines on it for a while.

On top of that you have to pile the licensing fees for all three on top of the cost of the disc. And I have a feeling such a disc would be unreliable, at best.... playing in some devices and not others.

What is needed is a affordable, DUAL FORMAT HD PLAYER, not disc. Then the consumer can then "not care" what media they end up. In an ideal world, all blueray AND HD-DVD discs would both have DVD layers (on the same media side as the HD), so the consumer can also play the movie on the billions of existing devices out there, many that they already own.

Oh well... dream on...

DualDisc, anyone? (1)

fj4 (940372) | more than 7 years ago | (#16134792)

Will this be a triple-standard disc, or standardless?
It reminds me of those DualDiscs that the record companies tout as having a CD side and a DVD side. Guess what? The "CD side" is not a Compact Disc at all, it fails to meet the Red Book standards and therefore won't play in all CD players. Actually, because of the extra thickness of the disc, they can jam up or damage slot-loading players.
The same problems could doom this triple format.
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