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Microsoft Owns Up To 360 Defects

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the call-bill-mr-fixit dept.

101

Next Generation reports on Microsoft's acceptance of responsibility for early 360 defects. While originally claiming that system failures were well within the norm for consumer electronics, they've now adopted a more service-friendly attitude. From the article: "Upon further investigation, it was further discovered that the bulk of the units were isolated to a group that was part of the initial manufacturing run of the console. Returns for repair are coming in for a variety reasons and it's a higher rate than we are satisfied with. We've made the decision to comp repairs for consoles manufactured before January 1, and provide refunds to the small group of customers who have already paid for repairs."

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Yeah (4, Funny)

Eightyford (893696) | more than 8 years ago | (#16169651)

While originally claiming that system failures were well within the norm for consumer electronics
Yeah, because all of my power supplies melt!

Re:Yeah (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 8 years ago | (#16169683)

"Yeah, because all of my power supplies melt!"

You're looking at that comment from the wrong end of the telescope. They meant that of all the machines released, only x% failed.

I suppose that could have been a joke, but regarding MS around here, it's hard to tell.

That's not a very good apology. (3, Interesting)

twitter (104583) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170295)

"Yeah, because all of my power supplies melt!"
You're looking at that comment from the wrong end of the telescope. They meant that of all the machines released, only x% failed.

Yeah, we know what they mean and it's bullshit. Of all the brick style power supplies and wall warts you have owned, how many ever melted? None? That's what most people would say because melting is not normal for consumer electronics. That M$ managed to ship one that did means they shorted several qualifying steps required for a UL listing with obviously dangerous results. Once again they suck, they don't care and they are going to lie to you about it.

Re:That's not a very good apology. (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170477)

Welcome to Earth. Beware of exploding laptop batteries and consoles you have to lay upside-down. Enjoy your stay!

Re:That's not a very good apology. (1)

NewsSurfer (1000129) | more than 8 years ago | (#16171281)

Any buisness that sells melting power supplies is a bit odd.

Re:That's not a very good apology. (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 8 years ago | (#16171331)

I'm not saying it's not. Not even Apple with their golden reputation has been able to avoid production problems. Allow me to quote the immortal Forrest Gump: Shit happens.

Re:That's not a very good apology. (1)

aichpvee (631243) | more than 8 years ago | (#16172847)

"Golden reputation"? I think you're missing the sarcasm when people say "Apple Quality(tm)".

Re:That's not a very good apology. (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 8 years ago | (#16173061)

"I think you're missing the sarcasm when people say "Apple Quality(tm)".

I was mod-bombed to the point of being banned once because I pointed out a scenario where Apple's hold on the market prevented an interesting feature from being added to the iPod. I get your point though, I shouldn't generalize because of a few noisy people.

Re:That's not a very good apology. (1)

The Bungi (221687) | more than 8 years ago | (#16173357)

Interesting twitter. How many indeed? I'm not sure how many from "M$", that's for sure.

Still, I wonder if you'd care to take the time to comment on other pieces of exploding hardware [slashdot.org] ? I wonder, actually, since you seem to be such the big IBM champion if you would like to refer to them as Once again they suck, they don't care and they are going to lie to you about it. Go ahead, I'd love to see that.

I absolutely love how these posts of yours get modded up.

Re:That's not a very good apology. (1)

twitter (104583) | more than 8 years ago | (#16174907)

I wonder if you'd care to take the time to comment on other pieces of exploding hardware?

Thinkpad 600, holy shit! I have one of those and love it but the battery has always sucked [slashdot.org] . I'm not too surprised that the made in China replacement could have some of the same cells and same problems other batteries made at the same time have. Mine replacement battery, which holds a charge just good enough for sleep mode, is too old to be part of the exploding lot. I looked around but was unable to find a NiCd replacement.

My overall take on laptop batteries is that they are a giant rip off. If you look back through my posting history, like all of the rest of my "fans" do, you will see that I've always reccomended standard cell sizes. All electronic manufacturers, including Leveno, are guilty.

Re:That's not a very good apology. (1)

jb.hl.com (782137) | more than 8 years ago | (#16175271)

My overall take on laptop batteries is that they are a giant rip off. If you look back through my posting history, like all of the rest of my "fans" do, you will see that I've always reccomended standard cell sizes.

We can't look back through your posting history further than about last week, because we're not subscribers.

Anyway, so IBM ships faulty shit - your reaction is "well, that stuff is always faulty whoever makes it". Microsoft (sorry, M$) ships faulty shit - your reaction is "OMFG M$ SUXX0RZ THEY DON'T CARE". Not that anyone's come to expect anything more from you.

Re:That's not a very good apology. (1)

rtb61 (674572) | more than 8 years ago | (#16181169)

The point that you seem to be missing is, M$ ships faulty shit and proceeds to bullshit about the faulty shit not being faulty and blaming customers for months there after. It is September and they are finally doing something for customers who have been basically screwed over since January.

Add to that, they cover over M$=B$ with even more M$=B$, only a few customers were affected, what happened to the infamous microsoft, xbox sold out, marketing campaign. Now it turns out there were only a few customers.

You also forget all the paid microtrolls who flooded forums with the opposite information, leaving those people foolish enough to trust microsoft frustrated about for months.

Re:That's not a very good apology. (1)

The Bungi (221687) | more than 8 years ago | (#16211325)

Oh god, your creative use of the dollar sign is simply amazing. And "microtrolls"? A classic. That's why I come to Slashdork - the comedy relief never ends.

Only one... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16176911)

Only one wall wart I ever owned melted: one for a Sears Telegames unit (aka Atari 2600, rebranded) vintage 1978 and it nuked in 1980 after two years of service.

Re:That's not a very good apology. (1)

RzUpAnmsCwrds (262647) | more than 8 years ago | (#16178301)

That M$ managed to ship one that did means they shorted several qualifying steps required for a UL listing with obviously dangerous results.

The power supply was designed and manufactured by Delta Electronics, one of the largest manufacturers of power supplies in the world. It is UL listed.

Re:Yeah (1)

Ucklak (755284) | more than 8 years ago | (#16171223)

About 23 years ago, I had to return 2 Vic-20 computers (1 at a time - I never thought I'd get a working one after the second) because the power brick melted.

Re:Yeah (1)

Jarlsberg (643324) | more than 8 years ago | (#16172963)

The power bricks for the C64 and the earlier generations were usually the least reliable part of the computer. I had one that melted, and I have had dozens that stopped working because the fuse short circuited (fortunately, a fuse only costs a few pennies and takes a few seconds to replace). I had to replace a fuse in my A2000 too, which was a real b**tch because you essentially have to strip out everything in the computer to get to it...

Re:Yeah (1)

Detritus (11846) | more than 8 years ago | (#16173249)

How does a fuse short-circuit?

Re:Yeah (1)

Jarlsberg (643324) | more than 8 years ago | (#16176793)

Ok, so it doesn't short circuit. It just blows. Ok? ;)

Sounds like they seriously underestimated them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16169663)

unless they mean 360 defects in DOS 1.0.

Uh huh (1)

Rendo (918276) | more than 8 years ago | (#16169729)

Small refunds? I doubt it'll be anywhere near the cost and hassle of having their expensive console fixed. At least Microsoft is owning up to it's crap though.

Re:Uh huh (1)

VJ42 (860241) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170213)

Read it again; it says refunds to a small group of customers; it dosn't mention the size of the refund (I misread it first too).

Bad writing drives me nuts. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16169737)

I know it is a part and parcel of this language, but the fact that I see the "own up", "Face up", and other such crap even in good newspapers now tells me that college has to educate these writers a bit better.

From William Zinnser's "On Writing":
http://www.cla.wayne.edu/polisci/kdk/general/sourc es/zinsser.htm [wayne.edu]

3. Clutter

Fighting clutter is like fighting weeds--the writer is always slightly behind. New varieties sprout overnight, and by noon they are part of American speech. John Dean holds the record. In just one day of testimony on TV during the Watergate hearings he raised the clutter quotient by 400 percent. The next day everyone in America was saying "at this point in time" instead of "now."

Consider all the prepositions that are routinely draped onto verbs that don't need any help. Head up. Free up. Face up to. We no longer head committees. We head them up. We don't face problems anymore. We face up to them when we can free up a few minutes. A small detail, you may say--not worth bothering about. It is worth bothering about. The game is won or lost on hundreds of small details. Writing improves in direct ratio to the number of things we can keep out of it that shouldn't be there. "Up" in "free up" shouldn't be there. Can we picture anything being freed up? The writer of clean English must examine every word that he puts on paper. He will find a surprising number that don't serve any purpose.


I will admit "own up" is not a problem in the same way that "up" is an extraneous word like in phases such as "face up" but would it kill the /. editing staff to use the word "admit", "confess", or anything else?

Re:Bad writing drives me nuts. (1)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 8 years ago | (#16169767)

Actually, while we are on this topic, the phrase is not just "owns up" but "owns up to" which could replaced by "admits" or the other words you suggested.

Re:Bad writing drives me nuts. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16170401)

You should start with criticizing shakespeare he used quite a few lesser known phrases, not to mention extraneous words. Shit, I bet you hate his writing, you literary scholar,you.

Re:Bad writing drives me nuts. (1)

WorselWorsel (687959) | more than 8 years ago | (#16174149)

Shakespeare was a journalist? I never knew that.

What about my warranty? (2, Informative)

Siguy (634325) | more than 8 years ago | (#16169753)

I just received in the mail, 6 months late, my warranty I purchased the day I bought my 360. If I get free repairs now then shouldn't they give me my money back on that warranty?

Re:What about my warranty? (1)

sowth (748135) | more than 8 years ago | (#16173097)

"Warranties" purchased in addition to an item are useless. Stores started pushing them and selling them because they found out from Sears almost no one ever makes any claims on these extended "warranties." It isn't really a warranty at all. It is a service contract.

A real warranty is essentially just a guarantee that a vendor will fix any defects if they are found within a certain amount of time. It is to assure customers the product won't fall apart too soon after buying the thing. You don't really buy this, it comes with the product. Some places require them by law for certain things. Purchasing one makes it a completely different thing.

Re: What about my warranty? (1)

@madeus (24818) | more than 8 years ago | (#16177443)

If I get free repairs now then shouldn't they give me my money back on that warranty?

My initial response was 'no way', but then I recalled they had an extended offer for something like 12 months 'extended cover' which they included in the box and seemed to be pushing quite heavily. Caveat emptor applies here I think, for two reasons:

1) In most western countries companies are under obligation to resolve issues caused by inherent serious design flaws in their products (typically as long as the flaws are discovered with in X weeks or months of purchase). In many cases, warranties grant no more real protection than is already provided for under consumer rights legislation (though they may state they will endeavour turnaround your problem faster than they are strictly obligated to).

2) They were always likely to offer free repairs / replacements for serious design flaws any way. As indeed they did - offering free repairs and replacements for users, even for those who did not fill in their warranty card or take out 'extended cover'.

My own 360 had a problem with the drive tray from the start - to the extent it became stuck shut within the first 48 hours - the store had no replacements in stock, so Microsoft paid for a courier to come and collect it, and sent me a new one within a week. They made it really easy to get the problem sorted out, by calling me back when they said they would and not waiting till I had to push them into providing a replacement (I would add that both the line quality and the communication skills of guy on the other end of the phone were really good - something I always like).

I buy a lot of [new] games for the X-Box (more than I realistically have time to play through, sadly) so that was a prudent move on their part. I don't mind teething problems or design flaws on new equipment (most conspicuously I've had it with a few Apple products too), as long as the vendor acts reasonably to put it right I'm happy to keep buying their products (and take risks on buying new equipment).

I can understand users who took out cover perhaps feeling burned to some extent, but there is a reason so many people joke about most 'extended cover' being worthless (possible exceptions being on things like high end laptops or large TV's). It's common knowledge that's it's usually not a wise investment and most consumer groups caution against taking them out without careful consideration of the tangible benefits being offered.

Only 360? (5, Funny)

rjstanford (69735) | more than 8 years ago | (#16169791)

Last time I heard, they had thousands of defects...

Re:Only 360? (1)

beckerist (985855) | more than 8 years ago | (#16169835)

Links? I've owned a 360 since last December without issue... It'd be nice to see some proof of that...

Re:Only 360? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16169885)

Try using Windows 95. If you only count 360 then you probably already used a shotgun on your computer.

Re:Only 360? (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16169913)

Brickheaded literalism is a symptom of autism. Are you a Wikipedia admin, by any chance?

Re:Only 360? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16170285)

lmao. That was good.

Re:Only 360? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16169939)

A) It was a joke. Read the Slashdot title again.

B) You really believe there hasn't been 2,000 failures (the minimum number for there to be "thousands")? The article quotes Microsoft as admitting to a 3-5% failure rate (and that was initially, they're admitting more now). Unless Microsoft has sold less than 67,000 consoles total, even a 3% error rate would be 2,010 failures.

Re:Only 360? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16169947)

Whooosh....

He was not talking about gaming consoles. Especially note the subject line of his post, and that it was not a referrence to gaming consoles.

Re:Only 360? (5, Funny)

rjstanford (69735) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170025)

Sigh.

Think about the phrase, "Microsoft Owns Up To 360 Defects." Not the conversation, just the headline. Now think about the response, "Only 360? Last time I heard, they had thousands of defects..."

Now look up. No, higher. See that? That's the joke, going far, far over your head.

Oh, never mind.

Re:Only 360? (1)

WilliamSChips (793741) | more than 8 years ago | (#16171461)

Actually, that's not a joke. That's a chair.

Re:Only 360? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16174705)

That's no chair. It's a space station!

Re:Only 360? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16172623)

Comedy explained is comedy diminished. Let people who get the joke get it without explaining it to the other ten.

Re:Only 360? (1)

Apoklypse (853837) | more than 8 years ago | (#16175679)

when will you feel up to turning it on, and could we get pics ?

Re:Only 360? (1)

bergeron76 (176351) | more than 8 years ago | (#16175073)

These 360 are the ones that will be fixed in the October Service Pack release schedule.

The article is really sparse. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16169839)

There isn't much information to be found there. However, I am quite curious what the "red rings of light" turned out to be. I know that the 360 had heat problems, but was the case red hot or something?

Red Ring of Death (2, Informative)

Gregory Cox (997625) | more than 8 years ago | (#16169987)

The article makes it sound very mysterious, but it seems like the "red ring of light" is just the LEDs on the power switch changing from green to red, indicating a hardware failure. It's been nicknamed the Red Ring of Death [teamxbox.com] .

Re:The article is really sparse. (1)

Troed (102527) | more than 8 years ago | (#16173133)

The problem is with the solder joints. After many cycles of heating up and cooling down they just lose contact. The most common error to get is three red lights on the console and if you check the error code it will be 0102.

It's fixable if you're good with a heat gun (for soldering jobs). The error is very common - and it's not just from one batch. Microsoft will have to admit to this error again and again in the months to come.

How to fix it yourself: http://www.xboxhacker.net/forums/index.php?topic=1 193.0 [xboxhacker.net]

Re:The article is really sparse. (1)

camperslo (704715) | more than 8 years ago | (#16180767)

The problem is with the solder joints. After many cycles of heating up and cooling down they just lose contact.

The sad thing about this is that even the units that haven't failed yet have been through excessive thermal stress and cycling and have been compromised. The integrity of even the working units is degraded and they all are likely to experience continued elevated failure rates. Microsoft should provide free replacement/repair if any of these units ever fails. (ever meaning within some reasonable lifetime, say seven years?)

Well designed electronic equipment should be very reliable and few things should deteriorate significantly with age. Of course mechanical devices have wear, flex conductors to heads in hard drives crack, electrolytic capacitors dry out, switch contacts pit and burn from surge currents and arcing (both can be minimized easily). Semiconductors with extremely high current densities may eventually fail from metal-migration, but I have only seen that in some radio-frequency power transistors.
But by far the most common failures are from excessive operating temperature which boils down to bad design.
Contamination in the materials of some components elevates failure rates but even in that case the failure rate is usually temperature related.

why cold solder joints of course. (1)

HelloKitty (71619) | more than 8 years ago | (#16173513)

red rings of light = loose/cold solder joints....

have you seen the reflow video on youtube?
they use a hot air gun to heat up the 360 mobo, and then it starts working again.

and my box was made in feb20/2006 - _after_ the january "early adopter" phase...

(my code was 0100, many others have the 0102 code...)

m$ removed the video from their forums. (1)

HelloKitty (71619) | more than 8 years ago | (#16173537)

oh yeah,
on the xbox.com forums
on the thread where everyone was complaining about the rings o death...
(this was an 8 page thread, with lots of info and data about people's 0102 and 0100 code related deaths)...

someone posted the video of the "hot air gun" motherboard fix... (presumably reflowing bad solder joints)

next...
m$ support posted they don't recommend people fixing their own box.
then...
the entire thread was removed.
mysteriously.... :)

(i also heard m$ had trouble with the new RoHS process that was just introduced recently...)
don't you love hearsay and speculation?

Great! The software's next? (0, Offtopic)

Svenne (117693) | more than 8 years ago | (#16169847)

That was the hardware. Now why don't they fix their crappy media center so that it will allow the 360 to play anything other than WMV and MPEG? There's this container format called AVI. Hello, Microsoft? Have you heard of it?

No, Transcode360 (or any form of transcoding) isn't good enough.

Maybe it wasn't designed for that (1)

MLopat (848735) | more than 8 years ago | (#16169965)

Then buy something else that does exactly what you're looking for. Oh, you can't find one you say. Yeah imagine that. So you want AVI support, despite the seemingly endless number of new codecs that are required for that format. You'll complain when you download an AVI and the codec is not available. I'd like my 360 to cook me breakfast in the morning... eggs. Ever heard of that Microsoft. I want eggs support. Get on it.

Re:Maybe it wasn't designed for that (1)

Svenne (117693) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170135)

Seriously. The codec's no problem. They install and play just fine. But it won't stream them to the 360.

Re:Maybe it wasn't designed for that (1)

jandrese (485) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170339)

That's because .avi is not a streamable file format. It stores the metadata in a big chunk at the end of the file.

Re:Maybe it wasn't designed for that (1)

Svenne (117693) | more than 8 years ago | (#16171019)

That's funny, because AVI movie files can be streamed just fine to any other UPnP video media renderer.

But that doesn't really matter, since Microsoft decided that that wasn't good enough. Instead they use the Media Center PC to decode the video and then stream it via some form of RDP. That's why it makes no sense at all that it doesn't work.

Re:Maybe it wasn't designed for that (1)

assassinator42 (844848) | more than 8 years ago | (#16172177)

I found one. The original Xbox with Xbox Media Center.

Re:Maybe it wasn't designed for that (1)

bit01 (644603) | more than 8 years ago | (#16173215)

Then buy something else that does exactly what you're looking for.

Yep, the mere possibility of having another product available precludes any possible comment about the featureset in the original product.

---

Don't be fooled, slashdot has many lying astroturfers [wikipedia.org] fraudulently misrepresenting company propaganda as third party opinion. FUD [wikipedia.org] too.

Re:Great! The software's next? (1)

ClamIAm (926466) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170479)

A proprietary, lock-in focused company supporting every format they can? Is this even possible?

Oh wait, yeah it is actually possible. Except I think that the only way you could get MS or Apple to stop pushing their pet formats is if you remove the crutch of software patents. The rate of innovation and improvement in software means that most patented formats will be rather obsolete and inefficient by the time 20 years are up. And then there's the whole issue of allowing patents on compression, which is basically, um, math.

Re:Great! The software's next? (2, Insightful)

Svenne (117693) | more than 8 years ago | (#16171041)

I'm not talking about the codec here. I'm talking about the AVI video container. You know, the one Microsoft developed.

I can install the codecs my self. And they work just fine. Thumbnails are created, so I know it can read the video files. But it won't play them.

Re:Great! The software's next? (1)

ClamIAm (926466) | more than 8 years ago | (#16178021)

Oh wow, that's horrible. I assumed malice, when the real culprit is either incompetence or laziness.

AVI as you mentioned is just a container (1)

goldcd (587052) | more than 8 years ago | (#16174045)

so everytime somebody creates a new funky code that is used in an an AVI you'd need a new codec on that if it were to be natively decoded on that.
Transcoding (lossless) is a much better solution - you know it plays on your PC - you know it'll stream across exactly the same to any extender you have. I only want to have to install codecs in one place and I'm sure MS aren't falling over themselves to let every codec maker install their stuff on their lovely 360s.
Current problem is that all we have is Transcode360 (which I much appreciate and even donated against) - isn't perfect and is very much bolted on. If MS wrote a transcoder themselves, then it could work much much better - for example not just transcoding the whole file start to end and presenting that to the extender, it could allow you to skip about through the file just as you would do normally and just transcode the part you want to view (rather than waiting for your PC to trundle through the file from the start every time).

made the decision to comp repairs (1)

Threni (635302) | more than 8 years ago | (#16169917)

> We've made the decision to comp repairs for consoles manufactured before January 1,

"comp" is a verb? Since when? Perhaps it's a Microsoft patented word, like IsNot?

Re:made the decision to comp repairs (2, Insightful)

kfg (145172) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170009)

"comp" is a verb?

Yep.

"Comp: Complimentary or free items and or services casinos give gamblers in gratitude for their business."

Some jokes you can't write because they just drop into your lap.

KFG

Re:made the decision to comp repairs (1)

psiphiorg (566033) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170743)

Actually, the definition you quoted is of "comp" as a noun. "comp" as a verb would be something like:

"Comp: To give a complimentary or free item and/or service to e.g. a gambler (by a casino) for their business."

davidh

Re:made the decision to comp repairs (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170835)

They may write themselves, but it helps if you remember to perform the necessary editing before you hit "Submit."

Mea Culpa.

KFG

Re:made the decision to comp repairs (1)

zero_offset (200586) | more than 8 years ago | (#16187289)

Actually, I believe the correct derivation is "compensate"...

comp isn't verb; it's a legally-enforced Trademark (0)

NRAdude (166969) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170767)

> We've made the decision to comp repairs for consoles manufactured before January 1,

"comp" is a verb? Since when? Perhaps it's a Microsoft patented word, like IsNot?

"comp" is a verb?

Yep.

"Comp: Complimentary or free items and or services casinos give gamblers in gratitude for their business."

Some jokes you can't write because they just drop into your lap.

KFG


Please perform a checksum on "comp" and "complimentary", and perhaps you'll find they are comp-letely different. Thereby, none is comprehended as brevity when confusing butchery to a word with a word that only exists in the mind of USians. The only moments a non-word are used in the form of a sentance is when conferring the said intellectual property and patent on that trademark word, for use in negotiation. USians are constontantly trying to renegotiate the English language to everyone's despair.

And in response to the parent post, yea "iSNot" is a trademark of Apple. I think this is the proverbial drip into the lap that our pal "kfg" could be referring to. I suppose I should buy one of those Apple iBox products that I've been seeing advertised on CARTOON NETWORK. They only thing is they only talk about how great the iBox truly is at gaming, without opening the iBox or interfacing it to any activity other than to stare at the iBox. I wouldn't be surprised if they payed a couple hundred dollars more than was the Nintendeo GameCube, only for the few non-poseurs to mod a slit in their iBox to modify it; and they'll probably find there are either tissues for the iSnot or maybe there is a trademarked non-SGI Brick inside.

Is Steve Jobs french, does any one know? I'm seeing a lot of redundancy with Apple recently, as well as Nintendo. It was just months ago that I saw a Wii stuffed in their GameCube. What could be hiding in the legendary iBox, I wonder? And what about the "iSNot" as well?

Sincerily not Apple,
  M. Gregory Thomas for
  our Network Redundancy Administration

Re:comp isn't verb; it's a legally-enforced Tradem (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170873)

USians are constontantly trying to renegotiate the English language to everyone's despair.

It's a nasty habit we picked up from the British. Myself I like to read people like Chaucer, Shakespeare, Kipling, Carroll and Milne. You wouldn't believe the crap they pull on a perfectly good language.

They've been a terrible influence on me.

KFG

Re:comp isn't verb; it's a legally-enforced Tradem (0)

NRAdude (166969) | more than 8 years ago | (#16171033)

t's a nasty habit we picked up from the British. Myself I like to read people like Chaucer, Shakespeare, Kipling, Carroll and Milne. You wouldn't believe the crap they pull on a perfectly good language.

They've been a terrible influence on me.


That's the joy of claiming the rites to such an inflection, because the owner may decide how people may pronounce the mark or what they may think it to mean. That's why many of the national corporations at the localities in America deceiving the People that they are found in the original charters, so much of COURT(inc) writes incorrect English as to have the copyright on said commercial speach while in the Court among inferiors/courts jousting their attorney about another's.

The source controlls the meaning, and when one source appears as similar to another then the dispute is whether they are independent of one-another by conscience or conciously unaware of one-another. Of course, that's somthing I talk about on various research that can show the difference between this "kfg" from that "kfg", and how they enter forum in agreement to bear witness of the kfg as heralded KFG. In that modus, most intellectual property rules can be overturned by the law.

I was teaching some children the other-day on negotiable instruments and how they are adapted to school "assignments." I thought it quite hillarious how children could dispute what they swear as true on their assignments (answer) or renegotiating the intent of a "scansheet" or otherwise that presents copyright information and trademarks as a lesson. My previous post was tried to set you up with a few entries to jest at my expense, but I didn't find any wit in your response. Perhaps I should have given you permission to the meaning of my non-errors in spelling words indifferently.

By the way, did you find any correlation in the stretched words found in your favourite subjective text in the titles revealed to me above?

Re:comp isn't verb; it's a legally-enforced Tradem (1)

BeeBeard (999187) | more than 8 years ago | (#16171497)

Haha you Brits lost all rights to the language the moment you started lauding a compilation of dick and fart jokes (Canterbury Tales) as quality English writing. ;)

Re:comp isn't verb; it's a legally-enforced Tradem (2, Funny)

kfg (145172) | more than 8 years ago | (#16172651)

Quality English writing? Shit, I just read it for dick and fart jokes.

KFG

Re:comp isn't verb; it's a legally-enforced Tradem (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16173193)

Yah, becoz their iz loik in USA! every1 is loik Sheikspeer lol

Internet: Bringing us new ways to express ourselves since the first dude said "fuck it, I'm not going to spellcheck this crap" and pressed "SEND"

Re:made the decision to comp repairs (1)

magicchex (898936) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170063)

Yes it is. Like in a casino.

Re:made the decision to comp repairs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16170163)

According to the dictionary, since at least 1885.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/comp [reference.com]

Try one, many are freely available.

Re:made the decision to comp repairs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16170189)

Get out more.

Re:made the decision to comp repairs (1)

Kagenin (19124) | more than 8 years ago | (#16181291)

You've clearly never worked in a Restaurant or Casino before. "To Comp" as in "To Compensate."

Sad (2, Interesting)

MBCook (132727) | more than 8 years ago | (#16169941)

I don't own a 360 (costs more than I'm willing to pay right now, and my motivation has dropped now that the main game I want to play, Dead Rising, won't work on my TV and won't be patched). But I do know a neighbor who does have one. They've had it for a few months (they got it after Christmas, I think). I was talking to them the other day and they told me the thing has been in like 3 times for service (although they think MS just replaces it each time). They've said it's really hard to get into contact with MS (long waits, etc.), and they won't cross ship (so you are 360-less while all this is going on) and it can take like two weeks to get the working unit. They have had different problems every time. Some failed as soon as they came back, some lasted a few months. They don't play it very hard or anything.

I've got to say I was surprised and disappointed when I heard their story. But then again, I find the idea that MS considers a 1 in 20 defect rate of boxes in the hands of the consumer abysmal. Stuff happens, but that's just pathetic.

One more reason for me to wait for a redesign of the unit or a re-spin of the silicon to a smaller process. Maybe by then things will be better.

I've never had problems with my XBox (non-360). I've never had problems with any of my consoles (even my initial batch PS and PS2s).

Anyone know Dell's defect rate (hardware only, in the first year)? I can't possibly be as bad as MS claims is OK (5%) or what they actually have (15%).

Re:Sad (2, Informative)

HuguesT (84078) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170195)

I'm not sure about DELL, but Apple, who has earned a reputation for good engineering in general, posts about a 15% failure rate on its laptops in the first year, according to that survey [macintouch.com] . On some models, it goes as high as 4!%, and 73% over two years.

So 15% is within normal by that standard.

Re:Sad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16170489)

Apple gets a pass because it pushes the envelope of engineering and design (and if you disagree, go fuck yourself). When you ride the cutting edge, you expect to bleed.

The issue here is that Microsoft stays within the dotted lines and still manages to fuck it up.

Re:Sad (2, Informative)

refitman (958341) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170493)

Yeah Apple [theregister.co.uk] have a great [theregister.co.uk] reputation [appledefects.com] .

Re:Sad (1)

Macgrrl (762836) | more than 8 years ago | (#16180623)

A surevy like this will self select for a higher than average failure rate. The people most likely to post are those that have had an issue. People who's machines just work would be less likely to be looking for defect information or post in a surevey about defects.

You might as well use my personal purchases of Powerbooks as the definative sample - I've bought 4 over 10+ years. None have had a hardware failure in the first 12 months, one has had a failure in the first 3 years. It was the clock battery on a PB 150, which required a small board to be replaced. We upgraded the harddrive at the same time.

I haven't collected the stats on PBs, I recall that @ launch of the iMac (Bondi), Apple anticipated a possible 2% failure rate and requested resellers stock certain parts in anticipation of those failure levels. Ultimately the failure rate in first 3 months was less than 1% for units sold.

The typical failure pattern for a new computer is:

  • 0-3 months - failures due to unit design
  • 0-6 months - failures due to poor QA at manufacturing - usually unit or batch specific, not model specific, will see some overlap at start with model design failures, may be tricky to isolate.
  • 6-24 months - usually pretty stable in the hands of typical user
  • 24-onwards - start seeing wear and tear issues

Varients to this would include laptop programs with schools - the kids can induce wear and tear issues within 6 months or less. This is generally because their usage patterns are different (setting up and packing up machine several times per day, pluging and unplugging cables constantly causing stress on ports) plus they tend to take less care of the devices.

Most common failure types are problems with ports being pushed off their boards, catches being forced (either to open lid or for removable modules), hinges broken/twisted, damage from falling (HDA/case/LCD damage).

Similar failure patterns are found on units by other manufacturers.

Disclaimer: worked 5+ years as an Apple Warranty repairer in Australia. Also warrantied NEC laptop repairer during same period. Preferred supplier for a number of private schools laptop programs during this period. Also several years in retail computer sales across all major brands. Worst failure rate I ever saw were when Olivetti released desktop computers, we had a batch with over a 90% DOA rate.

Re:Sad (1)

HuguesT (84078) | more than 8 years ago | (#16182133)

Hi,

I'm not sure how the survey was conducted, they don't say. A proper survey is completely random, you ask random people if they have an Apple laptop, what name, year etc and if it ever needed repairs. Survey by people who volunteer their experience is near worthless, as you said. You can't derive any sort of meaningful information from them.

I tend to believe the reliability of Apple notebooks is not great though, based on my own experience. I've own a powerbook, an ibook and now a MBP. All three were in heavy use. The powerbook failed in about 30months, the ibook in 25 months. The MBP is still working so far but with lots of little issues. This fits your categories like a glove BTW.

Re:Sad (1)

fimbulvetr (598306) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170547)

I have a 36" wega non-hdtv, I play dead rising on it. If you're not getting DR because you need to take a second glance to read the menu text (which you don't need to anyway, I've played the game just fine ignoring 90% of the text), it's not likely the fix would convince you to buy it either. Seriously, it's not like it's a madden fatigue or morrowind lockup/stuck in the hills type bug. During the first 5 minutes of the game, you have to squint about 5 times. BFD.

Re:Sad (1)

DeadScreenSky (666442) | more than 8 years ago | (#16222789)

Yeah, the text size in Dead Rising only seems to be a problem with people that use abnormally small TVs (like significantly under 20 inches) and shitty composite connections. S-video or component and a reasonably decent (not even good!) SDTV are more than sufficient to read Dead Rising's text.

Great news for those that had to replace one (3, Interesting)

squisher (212661) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170077)

I don't own one, but I'd imagine that there are a number of early adopters out there, that are pretty upset now. They bought one of the first batches, it failed a while later and because I'm assuming that most early adopters were enthusiasts, they probably bought a new one when the old didn't have warranty anymore. Those people of course don't get any compensation from Microsoft, even though they admit now that it was basically their fault...

Re:Great news for those that had to replace one (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16172583)

We've made the decision to comp repairs for consoles manufactured before January 1, and provide refunds to the small group of customers who have already paid for repairs
Repairs are almost always cheaper than buying a new one. Hell, when my original XBox failed (faulty video card), they payed for shipping both ways and replaced it free, and the Warantee lasted 9 months, if I remember correctly.

I doubt the number of people whose first-run console lasted over 9 months and then failed then decided to not get in contact with Microsoft and instead buy a new one is very large...

Why didn't this make the front page... (4, Insightful)

mincognito (839071) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170087)

Why didn't this make the front page, especially considering all the slashdot stories [slashdot.org] about [slashdot.org] xbox 360 [slashdot.org] problems [slashdot.org] ?

Maybe because the important stories are about microsoft's fuckups while the unimportant ones are those where they acknowledge their problems and address them.

Regardless, shouldn't this info be given the frontpage considering all the apparent 360 owners who are fixing their problems with strings, etc., and who could use the free service or refund?

360 Defects? (2, Funny)

afroken (721165) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170117)

This is Slashdot, right? There are a lot more than 360 defects with Microsoft. "Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all" doesn't happen by itself.

Actually... (2, Informative)

MoriaOrc (822758) | more than 8 years ago | (#16170463)

They've done this kind of thing atleast once before with the 360, though not publically as far as I know. I bought a 360 around new years, and since I didn't get an extended warranty (although hat was probably a little stupid), it fell out of warranty about the end of March. Back in July, I think it was, they released a big new feature filled patch (the one with background downloading, finally). A few days after that, my 360 started locking up and then showing the Red lights. A little browsing the internet later, I found out quite a few other people had had similarly coincidental hardware failures. After a quick talk with their tech support, I ended up getting the 360 replaced for free, despite it being out of warranty.

It's good to see MS officially admitting that there were hardware problems a large portion of the launch units and fixing them, just like any recall of a deffective product is a good thing to see.

'within the norm for consumer electronics'? (1)

ecalkin (468811) | more than 8 years ago | (#16171177)

about 1990-1992 or so, i worked for a regional retailer that sold computers, printers, etc from a number of vendors including hp, ibm, toshiba, epson. one of the problems we had was a high rate of doa equipment from ibm. we felt that the doa rate was too high, especially on monitors and printers. an ibm rep said that the proprinter doa rate was only 2%. 2 out of a hundred. i mentioned that any company making tvs or vcrs would be out of business with a 0.02 out of box failure rate. the rep seemed to think that 2% was O.K. they had a high rate of problems with monitors too. the 8513 ended up with a 4 year warranty. but what was one of the most gross failures of customer support that i ever saw was when ibm decided to not do immediate replacement of doa monitors. if you paid (a lot of money) for your monitor, took it home, opened up the box, plugged it in, and it didn't work, too bad. you brought it back and it was sent away for warranty work. which was several days to a week.

    ibm reps never understood why a customer would get stuff other than ibm. even when we told them about stuff like this. they lived in their own little world until it imploded.

    it seems that when companies get 'so' big, there seems to be warping of reality for them. i would bet there are some people at microsoft that were very unhappy to admit to this.

e

Re:'within the norm for consumer electronics'? (1)

WilliamSChips (793741) | more than 8 years ago | (#16171617)

it seems that when companies get 'so' big, there seems to be warping of reality for them
It's relativity. Gravity causes distortions in spacetime.

Re:'within the norm for consumer electronics'? (1)

zenhkim (962487) | more than 8 years ago | (#16178577)

> it seems that when companies get 'so' big, there seems to be warping of reality for them. i would bet there are some people at microsoft that were very unhappy to admit to this.

Good point, though I would rephrase it as "when egos get too big, there seems to be a warping of reality for them." The first Macintosh team at Apple discovered this when dealing with Steve Jobs, and adopted a Star Trek term to describe this confounding phenomenon:

http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macin tosh&story=Reality_Distortion_Field.txt&sortOrder= Sort%20by%20Date&detail=medium [folklore.org]

The Reality Distortion Field. Know It. Fear It.

Early adopters could not be reached for comment (1)

BeeBeard (999187) | more than 8 years ago | (#16171477)

because their homes burned down due to the faulty PSU's. I don't know how the smell of charring carpet could have escaped Microsoft's QA, but it sure did. For shame.

you know ... (2, Insightful)

brokeninside (34168) | more than 8 years ago | (#16171947)

If Microsoft had always been this forthcoming, I'd never have grown to be anti-Microsoft.

Honestly.

The single biggest thing that turned me off of Microsoft was the refusal to admit their mistakes. When I worked as a tech support rep for business clients, I can't even begin to count the number of times that I'd research a bug to find a MS knowledgebase article claiming ``this behavior is by design'' meaning it was a defect that they never intended to fix.

If they had openly admitted their defects, strove to correct them and offerend replacement/refunds consistently, there wouldn't be so many people in the anti-MS camp.

Re:you know ... (1)

Mistshadow2k4 (748958) | more than 8 years ago | (#16175913)

Very, very true. My first computer in 2001 came with Windows ME and I've been in the anti-MS camp ever since because of that. It was so buggy it was practically unusable, but Win98 worked fine on the same computer. I rarely saw a BSOD after switching to 98. Now that's just pathetic, truth be told. If they had recalled ME and offered 98 or 2k as a replacement I'd have had nothing bad to say about them, but as it is everyone who paid for ME got royally screwed.

A few words about this (2, Interesting)

AbRASiON (589899) | more than 8 years ago | (#16173717)

ABOUT FUCKING TIME.

and they damn well deserve it for rushing the thing out in the first place, the Xbox 1 is only 4 and a bit years old, don't fuck your first adopters by releasing it's replacement so quickly and dropping the original like a bag of shit with no support anymore.

Even Sony damn well supported the PS1 pretty well after the PS2 came out.

Fuckers.

Hey Sony, listen up.. (2, Insightful)

ProppaT (557551) | more than 8 years ago | (#16174009)

Would have been really nice if Sony would have done something similar with my original Playstation and original PS2 that both died well before their time. Or at least owned up that their consoles were plagued with problems. But wow, issuing checks to people who sent in their console for repair? Hats off to MS. I've sworn off of buying any first gen sony product after my multiple psx and ps2 systems. I was sworn off of first gen MS systems (not that I'm interested in the x-box much to begin with), but come NEXT generation (whenever that may be), if MS is in a better market position I'd be much less hessitant to buy their first gen console after this.

Why can't MS and Sony take a lesson from Nintendo? They're the only company that actually spends time engineering hardware that actually works. Only bad Nintendo experience I've ever had was the horrible N64 controller. I was lucky if one of those lasted me longer than a month.

Re:Hey Sony, listen up.. (1)

llZENll (545605) | more than 8 years ago | (#16176697)

I guess you never owned a NES, those things would stop reading cartridges after a few years, or sometimes even months. Half of the game was knowing how to blow on the metal pins on the cartridge, and slide it in just right so the game could actually be read.

Money pit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16174671)

Returns for repair are coming in for a variety reasons and it's a higher rate than we are satisfied with.

Shouldn't it be "a higher rate than our customers were satisfied with"? They're playing it off as if they're doing it out of the kindness of their own hearts. Sure, they could easily screw the customer and not extend their warranties, but then a lot of those would throw out their XBox 360 and buy a Wii or PS3. Why give themselves more headaches by throwing money at what appears to be a money pit?

Hardware is hard, MS-bashing is easy (0, Flamebait)

primeval_badger (995656) | more than 8 years ago | (#16178225)

I own a 360 (and have never had any problems with it). I appreciate that MS rushed production to get it out a year earlier than the other systems, as I was jonesing for a new system. I also appreciate that this rush is what produced the defective hardware. Although the delay in compensation for repairs denotes a greedy attitude on the part of MS, I am not surprised. Corporations do not exist to serve the public good, and if you find this objectionable, then please avail yourself of a microeconomics textbook. You can't expect good intentions from corporations (and from people in general). You should be satisfied that they do the right thing, even if for the wrong reasons.

Having worked for several years, I understand how difficult it is to design products, let alone systems. Even with the best gameplan, you will spend most of your time debugging and firefighting. Hence the emergence of "in-programming", which since MS is eating all of the costs of repairs to defective 360s, is essentially what they did when designing the hardware. Put another way, would you rather wait an extra year for a rock-solid 360, or get one a year earlier, which will probably work fine, but may not, in which case you get a working one for no extra cost?

MS is a decent corporation with decent products. It could be better, but it could be way worse. The people who run it are not evil or contemptible. They are extremely busy and are trying to balance a lot of competing forces when developing and marketing products. Don't criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes.

Slashdot is a great site, but the inane and repititious MS-bashing here really brings it down.

Quality is hard, MS-shilling is easy (2, Insightful)

zenhkim (962487) | more than 8 years ago | (#16180037)

Nice apologist tract. Let's deconstruct this, shall we?

> I appreciate that MS rushed production to get it out a year earlier than the other systems, as I was jonesing for a new system. I also appreciate that this rush is what produced the defective hardware.

So, in other words, Micro$oft is at it again: they rush a product through production, get it to market before it's ready, and -- what a surprise! -- it's got nasty bugs in it. Summary: M$ fucks things up some more.

> Although the delay in compensation for repairs denotes a greedy attitude on the part of MS, I am not surprised.

At this point, I'd be amazed if *anyone* was surprised.

> Corporations do not exist to serve the public good, and if you find this objectionable, then please avail yourself of a microeconomics textbook. You can't expect good intentions from corporations (and from people in general). You should be satisfied that they do the right thing, even if for the wrong reasons.

Translation: what the corporations offer the public is all they deserve, and if they don't like it they can go fuck themselves. Wonder if this 'primeval_badger' character is a Republican or a Libertarian -- what's his view on public oversight or government regulation of business? That should be good for a cheap laugh....

> Having worked for several years, I understand how difficult it is to design products, let alone systems.

Then you understand the importance of "defensive design" and "quality control", right? Because M$ apparently doesn't, seeing that they repeatedly and consistently release products that are Not Ready For Prime Time. Hell, it's no wonder my first software engineering professor got so pissed off at fuckheads like this, for creating sloppy design and shoddy quality, that it made him "want to get a baseball bat and start bashing in heads."

> Put another way, would you rather wait an extra year for a rock-solid 360, or get one a year earlier, which will probably work fine

-- unless the power supply unit undergoes a meltdown, explodes and sets fire to the carpet, which burns down the house and potentially nearby houses as well. Think I'm being over the top? Remember that little fuss a short while ago over laptop batteries? You know ...over some of them EXPLODING?

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/22/another-thinkpa d-battery-explodes/ [engadget.com]

But hey, what's a few exploding laptops, right? I mean, the user escaped with only minor burns and a ruined LCD monitor (other than the laptop screen itself), plus the firefighters came in time, so he should count himself lucky! Hell, he's even got backups of his data, so he should be *satisfied* that things turned out the way they did!! /end sarcasm/

> MS is a decent corporation with decent products.

Ahem... You seem to have contradicted your earlier statement about the nature of corporate business. More importantly, it flies in the face of the public record:

http://www.microsuck.com/content/whatsbad.shtml [microsuck.com]

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Murphy/?p=640 [zdnet.com]

http://www.inlumineconsulting.com:8080/website/msf t.shilling.html [inlumineconsulting.com]

> Don't criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes.

You forgot to add, "or unless you can outdo him."

Remember Bill Gates' infamous letter to the Homebrew Computer Club? The one in which he said to the club that "most of you steal your software"? What he neglected to mention in that letter was:

- Altair BASIC was released way behind schedule (dude, talk about foreshadowing!)
- Many Altair computer users had paid in advance for pre-ordered copies of Altair BASIC, yet had never received it
- Altair BASIC carried a price tag of over $100 US, yet it was full of bugs (ooh, more foreshadowing!)

One Homebrew member, a very quiet yet highly skilled programmer, was particularly annoyed by the Gates screed, and decided to one-up Gates: He would write his own version of Altair BASIC (called Tiny BASIC) which would be highly optimized, have desirable features (such as the ability to add REM comments to a program listing), and be free of bugs. Oh, and Pittman would sell his BASIC for *cheap*:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackers:_Heroes_of_th e_Computer_Revolution [wikipedia.org]

> Tom Pittman was someone else who did not take kindly to Gates' words. He wrote a version of Tiny BASIC for the Motorola 6800 microprocessor. Although he sold it to AMI for $3,500, he retained the rights to sell it to others and decided to charge only $5 for it. He received many orders and even money from people that already had gotten a copy and simply wanted to pay him for his efforts.

Nowadays, we have the Free/Open Source Software community, which is dedicated to providing no-cost (or extremely low-cost) high quality software to the public at large. The quality of F/OSS is enough that it sent Micro$oft into a panic:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/ [catb.org]

> * OSS poses a direct, short-term revenue and platform threat to Microsoft, particularly in server space. Additionally, the intrinsic parallelism and free idea exchange in OSS has benefits that are not replicable with our current licensing model and therefore present a long term developer mindshare threat.
>
> * Recent case studies (the Internet) provide very dramatic evidence ... that commercial quality can be achieved / exceeded by OSS projects.
>
> ...
>
> * OSS projects have been able to gain a foothold in many server applications because of the wide utility of highly commoditized, simple protocols. By extending these protocols and developing new protocols, we can deny OSS projects entry into the market.
>
> * The ability of the OSS process to collect and harness the collective IQ of thousands of individuals across the Internet is simply amazing. More importantly, OSS evangelization scales with the size of the Internet much faster than our own evangelization efforts appear to scale.

In Micro$oft's own words, Linux is the enemy, and therefore must be defeated.

> the inane and repititious MS-bashing here really brings it [Slashdot] down

Well, gee whiz, I guess throwing astroturf and FUD at F/OSS in general and Linux in particular is fair game, but NOOOOO! -- we can't strike back against the great Gates empire! Especially not with the truth! And *definitely* not just because M$ has declared Linux to be the enemy! /end heavy sarcasm/

Seriously, though, did you even read over your post before you submitted? Are you just a random person who is *completely* ignorant of Micro$oft's record? Or are you, primeval_badger or whoever the hell you really are, a Micro$hill so deluded that you believed no one could (or would) look around and find the truth?

Refund - no problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#16188071)

I recently had mine repaired for the 3 red lights. I just read this and called the support line to ask for my refund. No problem at all - verified my reference number and they are cutting a refund check. Definitely a good move for MS, this type of service is pretty rare in my view.
 
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