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Globalization Decimating US I.T. Jobs

kdawson posted more than 7 years ago | from the we-knew-that dept.

1102

mrraven writes, "According to Ronald Reagan's former deputy secretary of the treasury in this article in Counterpunch, globalization is destroying US I.T. jobs. From the article: 'During the past five years (January 01 – January 06), the information sector of the US economy lost 644,000 jobs, or 17.4 per cent of its work force. Computer systems design and related work lost 105,000 jobs, or 8.5 per cent of its work force. Clearly, jobs offshoring is not creating jobs in computers and information technology.'" Paul Craig Roberts quotes a number of formerly pro-globalization economists who are now seeing the light of the harrowing of the US middle class. It's not limited to I.T. Roberts quotes one recanting economist, Alan Blinder, as saying that 42–56 million American service-sector jobs are susceptible to offshoring.

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In more trouble than most realize... (4, Insightful)

BWJones (18351) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272613)

Of course most folks who are actually working in IT could have told you this. I know a number of folks at companies who experienced several rounds of layoffs. They have survived the layoffs, but they are also currently doing the job of two to three employees now versus prior to the layoffs. Morale is low, pay has not kept up with the cost of living increases, the cost of health care or inflation. Productivity is still there, but burnout is likely in these individuals. Other people I know that did lose their jobs ended up going back to school and getting out of IT entirely which I suspect is not an isolated situation and would lead to skewed unemployment statistics.

The thing that worries me is that this is not an isolated employment sector, and I predict that we are in more trouble than we might know. Historically we have relied on our research and development to keep this country on top technologically, but over the last five years or so, we have been reducing the amount of funding we spend on research and development, particularly in the biosciences. For example, if you were to look at NIH grant paylines, five years ago the payline was around 33%. Next year it is predicted to be anywhere from 10-14% meaning the likelihood that a researcher will obtain funding has been cut by more than half. In fact, research and education spending on the whole is down under the current White House administration. So, if we are supposed to rely on education, technology and research and development to keep our edge as a country, we are already in trouble, especially when one considers that even if we were to turn things around tomorrow, we have likely done enough damage that it will take a decade to recover.

Re:In more trouble than most realize... (5, Interesting)

chill (34294) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272657)

Speaking of R&D... ...one of the comments made by Lucent CEO Patricia Russo about the pending merger with Alcatel said (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the quote in front of me):

"Alcatel does not do the kind of research that Lucent has historically done at Bell Labs. Future projects at Bell Labs will need to focus on productization in a 5-year timeframe. This transition has already started."

Science and research for the sake of science and research is now officially dead at Bell Labs. If they can't turn it into something that can be sold within 5 years, shitcan it.

Re:In more trouble than most realize... (4, Interesting)

HuguesT (84078) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272981)

This is an interesting commment, except that Alcatel, like any large telco would have been dead long ago if they hadn't done or sponsored a modicum of basic research, and they have, see this [alcatel.com] for example.

Meanwhile, at Bell Labs, things have been business-focused for a very long time. Remember that Thompson, Richie et al. couldn't get funding to make a new O/S, they had to pretend they were writing a text processor instead [ualberta.ca] .


The first version of @acronym{UNIX} was developed on a PDP-7 which was sitting around Bell Labs. In 1971 the developers wanted to get a PDP-11 for further work on the operating system. In order to justify the cost for this system, they proposed that they would implement a document formatting system for the AT&T patents division. This first formatting program was a reimplementation of McIllroy's roff, written by J. F. Ossanna.

Re:In more trouble than most realize... (0, Flamebait)

littlewink (996298) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272909)

Of course most folks who are actually working in IT could have told you this.

Hell, Of course most folks NOT working in IT have been saying this. But those working, and everyone else, weren't listening.

Welcome to the global revolution, dumbasses!

Re:In more trouble than most realize... (5, Funny)

dingDaShan (818817) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272947)

Yea, I am experiencing this too... This guy from Singapore installed a router here and he was in India at the time. It was really amazing how foreigners can defy physics now. Geez the internet is changing everything.

So what's the problem? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272623)

You all said that globalism was a good thing, but now you can't take it?

So what's the problem? Outsourcing goose & gan (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272753)

http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/06/09/28/21523 1.shtml [slashdot.org]

Contrast the attitudes demonstrated in the above to the one's displayed here. Not so much fun when the "SOL" is on your foot.

Speak for yourself I never liked globalization (-1, Troll)

mrraven (129238) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272805)

Maybe YOU said globalization was a good thing but speak for yourself I was very much in favor of the protests against the WTO meetings in Seattle in 1999. I didn't go but many of my friends did and got tear gassed for their troubles. Looks like us rads were right about globalization just like we were right to protest the disaster of the war in Iraq. Maybe it's time the MSM stopped laughing at rads and started listening, and giving our views some air time considering our excellent track record over the past 10 years. Giving Noam Chomsky an Amy Goodman more MSM air time would be a good start.

Re:Speak for yourself I never liked globalization (1)

operagost (62405) | more than 7 years ago | (#16273031)

Rads? So I see that the "rads" are merely disguised racists, who criticize the USA's foreign policy unless it benefits only white people. Little brown and yellow paupers in Asia and the Middle East are of no concern. Just keep sending food and money to them, and let it rot on docks or be stolen by warlords and despots, rather than invest in improving their self-government and infrastructure.

Who is this "you all"? (4, Insightful)

khasim (1285) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272893)

You all said that globalism was a good thing, but now you can't take it?

I have no problem with "globalism" PROVIDED that the country getting the jobs has the same level of regulations and protections that we have (or higher).

The problems I have with "globalism" is when companies off-shore because the other country has FEWER worker protections or environmental regulations than we do. Yeah, it's great for your CEO's bonus if you can work 10 year old kids for 12 hours a day at $5 a week making tennis shoes. But this isn't about your CEO's bonus.

We should be bringing everyone else UP to our standards rather than racing to the lowest level out there. But we are racing to the bottom. That is the problem.

How do you feel about inter-state "offshoring" (2, Insightful)

davidwr (791652) | more than 7 years ago | (#16273029)

How do you feel if your employer shuts down your worksite and opens up a new worksite in another state that has fewer worker protections or environmental regulations? Maybe from a strong-labor state to a state with virtually no organized labor in your field, or from a state which greatly restricts youth labor to one that follows minimum federal guidelines, or one with a high minimum wage to one that uses the lower federal minimum? Maybe from one with good workers compensation insurance to one with very poor insurance?

You get the idea.

Don't laugh, such things happen all the time.

Boo Freaking Hoo (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272637)

Look at me! I'm white and American -- I shouldn't have to compete for my job!

If you find yourself sliding out of the job market, then get some more skills.

If only there were CDROM's available with fully-featured unix systems, complete with source code, that one could use to learn operating systems, compiler design, networking, graphics, and databases! If we had that, then unemployed American computer folk would have a shot at competing internationally!

No one is entitled to a job, even if you are white, American and whiny.

Re:Boo Freaking Hoo (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272731)

Look at me! I'm white and American -- I shouldn't have to compete for my job!

Look at me. I do a job that an American used to do for ten times the salary. But nobody is buying my software!! It's all being pirated online! Someone should make those greedy ass, out of work, Americans pay $1000 for my shrink wrapped software instead of stealing it. It's not like they could produce this stuff themselves or anything...

Re:Boo Freaking Hoo (2, Insightful)

MightyYar (622222) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272737)

I'm white, American, and sometimes pretty whiny, and yet I pretty much agree with you - even if I wouldn't be as acerbic. Why is it that the very same people who complain about globalization also complain that the US is too imperialistic? Is the US supposed to artificially protect their standard of living or not? How, exactly, do you propose keeping your salary artificially high without it coming at the expense of others?

Re:Boo Freaking Hoo (2, Interesting)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272853)

The problem is this...

We are competing with people who do not have 40 hour work weeks, do not have child labor laws, hell - some of them basically have slave labor.
They are willing to completely destroy their environment (we are talking black teeth from the amount of waste loose in the environment).

On top of this- they are willing to work for less.

I can see on a philosophical basis saying "okay they are less and that's tough nuts".

I can not see saying on that basis, "Okay so they work their children 15 hours a day and use prison labor from people thrown into prison on some very dubious causes".

So, I think we would be on a fair ethical basis to say, "Yup, you can use labor that charges .60 per hour- but you have to give 10 days vacation, workers comp, sick time, health care, etc. if you want to import the products into this country."

40-hour work week who are you kidding? (1)

davidwr (791652) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272993)

I worked for several years on salary for a big-name employer.

I routinely worked a lot more than 40 hours a week and I'm sure most IT workers making more than $40,000/year do too.

Yes, I did rake in more than $5.25/hour even with the longest weeks, but anyone who thinks IT jobs are all 40-hour workweeks has another think coming.

Re:Boo Freaking Hoo (1)

Ksisanth (915235) | more than 7 years ago | (#16273067)

So...children and prison laborers are taking American IT jobs?

Re:Boo Freaking Hoo (1)

megaditto (982598) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272847)

Look at me! I'm white and American -- I shouldn't have to compete for my job!


That's right, I should not have to compete with prisoner slaves in China, with Cayman Islands' girls that are forced to undergo abortions so their employer does not need to pay for maternity leave...

Why is American labor more expensive? Because education, health insurance, worker safety and compensation, living wage, future to look forward to ARE expensive. And child slave labor in Kraplickistan is cheap.

And the way we stay competitive is not by doing away with living wage or insurance for us, but instead by mandating that any company wishing to sell to America must provide living wage, insurance, etc. etc. to their workers worldwire.

Don't like it in America? Go send your kids over to live in the 'free market' conditions of Liberia or Pakistan.

Re:Boo Freaking Hoo (1)

FooAtWFU (699187) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272925)

So. How many child slaves are there working in IT overseas? Which of those "42-56 million American service-sector jobs" susceptible to offshoring are staffed by these prisoner slaves from China?

Re:Boo Freaking Hoo (1)

Danga (307709) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272953)

That's right, I should not have to compete with prisoner slaves in China, with Cayman Islands' girls that are forced to undergo abortions so their employer does not need to pay for maternity leave...

Since this is a discussion about I.T. jobs I think your comment is irrelevant. I highly doubt any of your examples of slave labor/badly treated employees are experienced by workers performing outsourced I.T. related jobs. In fact, most I.T. jobs in India and elsewhere actually are VERY desirable jobs to have and while what they are paid pales in comparison to American wages it is very good pay for the people in those countries.

Come up with a different arguement and come back.

Re:Boo Freaking Hoo (1)

chaoticgeek (874438) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272869)

One thing about that is companies like people to have certification and papers saying this person knows xyz.

It's all about downward pressure on wages (2, Insightful)

mrraven (129238) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272877)

What a lying sack of shit the parent post is, it's all about reducing labor costs so a thin layer of owners and managers can make hundreds of millions if not billions a year while BOTH Americans and people in the third world suffer terribly. Hint .001% of Indians will become coders and engineers and even that elite they will be paid probably a quarter of what an American would make at the same job and the rest of India, Vietnam, China, etc will work sweatshop jobs for pennies an hour. Globalization is a bad deal for BOTH Americans and people in the third word. As corporations scour the world for the lowest wages possible it creates downward pressure on wages for all of us. Unless we wake up to this fact and reign in the corporations they will continue to bend us over and have their way with us.

It's the neo-cons stupid. (0, Flamebait)

pair-a-noyd (594371) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272639)

The FN neo-con penny sniffing, greedy, profiteering republicans are the ones decimating this country.
They should all be arrested and tried for treason.
They've sold out our country. They are criminals.
They've damaged this country beyond repair.

Re:It's the neo-cons stupid. (1)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272663)

And here I thought it was those guys at the DLC.

Re:It's the neo-cons stupid. (1)

zoftie (195518) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272667)

The staple name before they came to power, was 'the crazies'. Now it is too late.

Re:It's the neo-cons stupid. (0)

bbhack (98541) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272717)

Your foolishness will not serve you well as you get older. Grow up.

Re:It's the neo-cons stupid. (1)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272749)

Lol.

The corporations have bought the democrats too.

And every time we say "Look at it locally but buy it online" we do the same thing.

And if we don't- we are being stupid paying high prices to keep a local merchant in business while everyone else uses them but buys online.

The economy is realigning. There is no way to stop it. You better save like hell and avoid debt.

Good land in the US will be bid up (for now) because it is safe and stable. A lot of people can't afford to live where they grew up now.

Business and rich people own America.

And voters on the left and right are so obsessed with abortion and other 'non-issues' like gay marriage that they are allowing it to happen. They may be out of a job- out on the street- but at least the candidate voted for/against the issue they care more than anything about.

Re:It's the neo-cons stupid. (1)

Danga (307709) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272843)

While I don't agree with many large business's attitudes towards employee's (such as having no loyalty to the employee but expecting the employee's to have full loyalty to them) I also don't like people who whine about the offshoring of jobs. If someone over the ocean can do the same job as me (software developer) for much cheaper then so be it. This does not worry me that much though because I have heard from many sources how horrible most outsourcing experiences are. If outsourcing does not start to become easier to do and have better results then businesses will realize that the "cost savings" is not worth the other problems and sometimes it actually ends up costing more in the long run.

The key is to keep your skills sharp and make yourself be in demand. I recently put my resume out on monster and some other job boards and was overwelmed with the responses I got so much that I ended up taking it off because my inbox was full and my phone was ringing off the hook (and no, not just from head hunters who I ignored completely). These were great, decently high paying jobs too 75k-100k+ at places like Amazon, Google, Microsoft, etc (experience required ranged from 2-5 years and I have 2). From what I observed a lot of the easily outsourced, lower skilled software jobs may have gone overseas but the higher skilled positions are still plentiful and definitely not scarce.

The jobs were tempting but right now I am happy at the small forensic software shop I currently am at and I really like the challenges I receive everyday, the knowledge that the software I create is helping to catch "bad guys", and the freedom I have since I am not overwelmed with company policies, red tape, etc. I also like the added fact that my current job will NEVER get outsourced, it just would not make sense to do so since we are such a small company not to mention the security issues that would come up.

Basically there is not much to worry about unless you let your skills stagnate and/or you don't adjust to changes in the market.

Re:It's the neo-cons stupid. (0)

CosmeticLobotamy (155360) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272855)

They should all be arrested and tried for treason.
They've sold out our country. They are criminals.


On behalf of the left, shut the fuck up. You're not helping anything.

Re:It's the neo-cons stupid. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272967)

The FN neo-con penny sniffing, greedy, profiteering republicans are the ones decimating this country.
Do you stereotype your political opponents much?

Rhetoric (1)

zoftie (195518) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272685)

Now I wonder if slashdot has become byproduct of media propoganda machine. CNN seems to blast current administration now, I don't make connection between the two, but number of political stories has risen on each, including this one, dramatically, especially relating to current administration. Am only one noticing this? Are we being manipulated? If so by who...

Re:Rhetoric (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272707)

By me! MUAH HA HA HA! *fondles zoftie voodoo doll*

Re:Rhetoric (1)

bbhack (98541) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272785)

It's a form of filtering. Growling, crazy eyed, about a lame duck administration is a form of pathology that should be identified. Hatred of this lame duck administration is being artfully cultivated, so as to carefully and exactly weed out those who should not own handguns.

It's all in the plan, trust me.

Re:Rhetoric (4, Funny)

CosmeticLobotamy (155360) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272797)

Are we being manipulated? If so by who...

You hit the nail on the head, there, man. The Democrats, and the clearly unthwartable propaganda machine they've built that has won them all their impressive power, have finally swayed Slashdot and CNN away from their traditionally pro-authoritarian views.

Some people will claim that a rise in political stories has something to do with the upcoming elections. Those people have clearly been bribed.

Duh... (1)

big-giant-head (148077) | more than 7 years ago | (#16273079)

Are we being manipulated? If so by who...

You have to be freakin kidd'n me. Saddam has WMD, Saddam has direct ties Al Qieda... US invades.. no WMD, neither the 9/11 taskforce, not the senate report, nor any combination of the CIA/NSA/DIA/FBI can find any substantial link between Saddam and OBL... Yet we invaded and are now occupying another country.

The rethuglicans got into office on a platform of terror mongering and Gay bashing..
                  well guess what it's 2years later and both Osama and the Gays are still here, while
                  america's middle class is vanishing faster than bag of pork rinds at Ramadan.

We need tax cuts to fix the economy... So tax cuts went mostly to the top 3% , in terms of income, and corporations got a 25% tax cut. Oh yeah and the oil companies got billions in tax credits... All in the name of jobs.. well look at the numbers... there aren't more jobs... We just have more debt..

W's tax cuts created millions of new jobs, unfortunately they were all in India and China.

JUST WHO THE HELL DO YOU THING IS MANIPULATING US, I'll give you a hint it ain't Lou Dobbs and CNN

that raises another question (2, Insightful)

Lord Ender (156273) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272695)

If the US government were to make it more difficult for companies to offshore, would the situation be any better?

Tech boom/bust? (2, Insightful)

Schraegstrichpunkt (931443) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272705)

Could this just be a reversal of what happened during the tech boom, where:

  1. companies were hiring *tons* of I.T. personnel, and
  2. anyone who had read the camel book could get a job in I.T.?

I'm curious if many of the competent, professional I.T. people are really losing their jobs.

Re:Tech boom/bust? (2, Interesting)

IANAAC (692242) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272945)

I was in the "IT" sector for about 20 years, starting first as a computer operator, then moving to operations analysis, then system administration.

After 20 years, I got out of it. Know why? System administration has become the equivalent of computer operations. The new factory line worker, in many ways. I had no desire to get into programming - sorry, but it bores me to tears.

So I went back to school and got another, unrelated degree.

I'm curious to know if my case is unusual. I am guessing that it's not all that unusual. I've said it before in another thread that I really believe humans should experience more than one field in the course of their work years.

Re:Tech boom/bust? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272963)

I'm curious if many of the competent, professional I.T. people are really losing their jobs.


I can see why you'd ask the question. It's not like you would know of any ("competent, professional I.T. people").

Re:Tech boom/bust? (1)

SashaMan (263632) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272995)

Agreed. In Austin, the demand for competent software developers, dev managers and project managers is very high right now, and I here similar stories from friends in other cities.

Re:Tech boom/bust? (1)

Danga (307709) | more than 7 years ago | (#16273003)

I'm curious if many of the competent, professional I.T. people are really losing their jobs.

I don't think they are losing their jobs. I wouldn't say it is exactly the opposite of the tech boom but it is similar since a lot of the lower skilled jobs are being outsourced. People who keep their skills up to par and make sure they have a lot to offer will still be in demand for quite some time.

Re:Tech boom/bust? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16273051)

Not in my experience -- everyone I know (typically first-level managers in IT) is actually desperately trying to find good people. As a data point, when I started feeling like I wanted to consider looking about 3 weeks back, I didn't even get around to sending my resume, as an acquaintance went "GREAT! Come in to interview!"

Re:Tech boom/bust? (1)

Lord Ender (156273) | more than 7 years ago | (#16273061)

Actually, the llama book was probably good enouogh.

We're all guilty of this. (2, Insightful)

partisanX (1001690) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272711)

You can blame repubs, dems, the evolutionists, creationists, etc... But our own individual greed have all contributed to this problem. When was the last time anyone cared about looking for anything "made in the USA"? If we as individuals don't feel compelled to buy products from our own nation, on what grounds do we expect corporations to hire more expensive US labor? Especially when doing so, would put them at a price disadvantage when selling to us US consumers, who, surprise surprise, pay more attention to price than anything else? If they did that, they'd go under, thanks to us.

Something of a conundrum.

Re:We're all guilty of this. (4, Interesting)

greeze (985712) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272823)

Good luck finding anything with the "Made in the USA" label. I don't remember the last time I saw it. Shoes, clothes, cars, electronics... Been to Walmart lately? When companies can get cheaper labor with little or no labor or environmental restrictions in foreign countries, then who can blame them for moving? Some say the solution is to remove labor and environmental restrictions in America. I believe that would result in the US becoming just another 3rd World nation. I figure we should bring back tarriffs. If a country has shitty labor or environmental laws, slap a tarriff on their products to make them just as expensive as their American counterparts. But I'm not an economist, so maybe I'm missing something important.

Re:We're all guilty of this. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16273017)

Someone accused me for putting Americans out of jobs because I drive a Honda instead of a Ford. They had nothing else to say when I brought up the fact that the Hondas sold in the US are actually manufactured locally, by Americans, while Fords are made in Mexico.

Ironically, I am supporting American workers by buying a foreign car.

Re:We're all guilty of this. (1)

supabeast! (84658) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272911)

"But our own individual greed have all contributed to this problem. When was the last time anyone cared about looking for anything "made in the USA"? If we as individuals don't feel compelled to buy products from our own nation, on what grounds do we expect corporations to hire more expensive US labor?"

It's great that you realize that, but it doesn't matter. Good luck finding American leaders willing to espouse personal responsibility-it clearly isn't something this country is looking for. Americans much prefer leaving all the hard choices to someone else, and unless you're quoting nonsense from a book of fairy tales, telling Americans that they actually have to make an effort to deal with a problem is a sure-fire way to get tuned out.

Re:We're all guilty of this. (1)

partisanX (1001690) | more than 7 years ago | (#16273065)

It's great that you realize that, but it doesn't matter. Good luck finding American leaders willing to espouse personal responsibility-it clearly isn't something this country is looking for. Americans much prefer leaving all the hard choices to someone else, and unless you're quoting nonsense from a book of fairy tales, telling Americans that they actually have to make an effort to deal with a problem is a sure-fire way to get tuned out.

I don't worry about "American leaders willing to espouse personal responsibility". To blame American leaders is to take responsibility out of the hands of we the people, the clowns who voted them into office. IMO, that's where the shirking of responsibility begins. When we the people stopped taking responsibility for what the leaders do in our name. Leaders are only ever a reflection of we the people's sincere or insincere efforts to govern ourselves.

I've been modded up and down the spectrum for speaking my mind here and elsewhere, I quite frankly don't give a damn if people tune me out or not. I still believe in personal responsibility. That responsibility entails me speaking my opinion without regard for winning popularity contests. You want to change things, you change things. If you think something needs to be said, then YOU SAY IT. Don't fall into the trap thinking that everyone has to agree with you in order for you to change things. You change yourself, and it will have a ripple effect. If you don't change yourself, then what the hell is the point of complaining?

Re:We're all guilty of this. (2, Insightful)

enjahova (812395) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272927)

Let's take your logic a little further. Why limit ourselves to "made in the USA"? That's not very local, why not only buy things made in your state, in your city, your neighborhood, your own farm? Our greed is very much the reason we do not do any of those. It is also an acceptable reason NOT to buy "made in USA."

You can appeal to patriotism all you want, but the fact is that the world is bigger than the USA. The global transportation network, and now the internet have opened everyone to everyone. The world has steadily been moving in a globalized direction, and there are lots of corporations getting rich off of it. It may be nice to have protectionism to provide "us" protection from "them" but the truth is, the distinction between us and them is dwindling. "They" buy our movies, our software and our clothing. I bet you don't have a problem with that, until "they" all decide that they don't want any American goods. Then what?

We can't turn back the clock. It sucks that people are losing their jobs, it sucks that we don't live in a perfect world where we can all hold hands and sing. The problem is not an "us" vs. "them" that we can solve by shutting "them" out, thats an artificial solution. We need a substantive solution that improves the value of our people, more education, more research and vigilance in maintaining our superb economic environment.

Re:We're all guilty of this. (1)

hpcanswers (960441) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272999)

Your post reeks of xenophobia. What if every country only bought items that had been produced within its borders? We could all feel a smug satisfaction in destroying the global economy (both ours and theirs) in at least having something "Made in America."

Not decimating (0)

SEWilco (27983) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272715)

644,000 jobs, or 17.4 per cent of its work force.
That's not decimating. 90% is decimating. If 17.4% was decimation, we'd be speaking Latin as proud members of the Global Roman Empire.

Re:Not decimating (2, Informative)

FooAtWFU (699187) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272735)

That's not true. 10% is decimating.
Decimation was a form of extreme military discipline used by officers in the Roman Army to punish mutinous or cowardly soldiers. The word decimation is derived from Latin meaning "removal of a tenth."
-- Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] .

Re:Not decimating (1)

thestuckmud (955767) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272997)

If you want to be pedantic, you should also mention that 10% refers to a historical meaning of the word "decimate". The common meaning (in this context) is "remove a large percentage of".

Re:Not decimating (1)

apathy maybe (922212) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272775)

HA HA.

Decimating was killing every 10th man (or person). So I think that 17.4 is more then a decimation.

I think you got your stats around the wrong way.

See also http://www.answers.com/decimation&r=67 [answers.com] and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(Roman_Arm y) [wikipedia.org]

Re:Not decimating (1)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272787)

Decimating is to kill one in ten soldiers. It was done as punishment.

17.5% is more like double decimating.

Re:Not decimating (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272881)

Decimation was used as a means of reducing the number of soldiers when there were too many,
not as punishment. Consequently, its an apt use of the word.

By the way, words evolve as well. Even if you were correct in every respect, *modern* usage
doesn't have to exactly mirror the original.

By comparison... (1)

MacDork (560499) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272791)

American unemployment peaked during the Great Depression at about 25%. 17.4% certainly sounds like decimation to me.

Re:Not decimating (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272867)

decimation n.
Usage Note: Decimate originally referred to the killing of every tenth person, a punishment used in the Roman army for mutinous legions. Today this meaning is commonly extended to include the killing of any large proportion of a group. Sixty-six percent of the Usage Panel accepts this extension in the sentence The Jewish population of Germany was decimated by the war, even though it is common knowledge that the number of Jews killed was much greater than a tenth of the original population. However, when the meaning is further extended to include large-scale destruction other than killing, as in The supply of fresh produce was decimated by the nuclear accident at Chernobyl, only 26 percent of the Panel accepts the usage.

Re:Not decimating (1)

Frogbert (589961) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272943)

Actually decimating is only 10%. Decimate originally referred to the killing of every tenth person, a punishment used in the Roman army for mutinous legions. Soldiers would be grouped into 10's and then made to draw lots. The one with the short straw would then be killed by the nine others, typically with clubs.

DUH! (1, Insightful)

plasmacutter (901737) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272741)

The entire movement of "globalization" is advocated solely by huge corporate interests who are seeking ways to circumvent national sovreignty, specifically the imposition of wage and labor standards.

They realize that by doing this they will be able to squeeze more profit from the exploitable masses.

Their proponents spew forth on theories of national "specialization".. which is completely specious, as illustrated by our interactions with china. We are being bled dry of our money and at the same time china is being bled dry of their labor... and who wins.. corporate owners, execs, their families, and the political elite who help them perpetrate it.

Re:DUH! (3, Insightful)

be-fan (61476) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272811)

Are you high? China is a prime example of globalization at work. We get a whole lot more stuff for our money from China than we could produce ourselves for the same cost. At the same time, China gets a lot more money selling to us than it would selling to itself.

Globalization isn't something just corporations are pushing. Most liberal egg-head economists are pushing it too. They push it, because the math works out, it makes sense, and has been demonstrating its usefulness for literally hundreds (if not thousands) of years. Louis XIV drastically turned around the French economy over 300 years ago by breaking down trade barriers, and there are still people who aren't convinced it works...

Re:DUH! (1)

greeze (985712) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272889)

Wait... so we're getting products and they're getting money? Am I missing something? How do we get that money back?

Re:DUH! (2, Insightful)

plasmacutter (901737) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272901)

Are you high? China is a prime example of globalization at work. We get a whole lot more stuff for our money from China than we could produce ourselves for the same cost.

no i'm not high.. and it's not working that way.

prices are lower relatively here, but we are not getting as much back in the drop in price as we are losing through drops in jobs and real wages..

in other words the nominal price is dropping, but the nominal wage is dropping faster.. meaning real price is actually rising.. except of course for the wealthy, or for those whose jobs cannot be offshored.

Allow me to explain this further: (2, Insightful)

plasmacutter (901737) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272975)

Under the ideal scenario it works as you stated:

china produces at cheaper costs.. and though wages drop for those jobs in the US because of labor competition, the prices will drop at the same rate resulting in equalization of the two living standards with no real change in ours..

in reality it's quite different:

Companies see profit potential here..
china produces at cheaper costs, and wages drop for those jobs in the US because of labor competition, but because the companies are sucking up profits by not lowering prices to the marginal cost of production (like they would with US produced goods), the real cost of products rises for americans, and the standard of living goes down.

Some people will make the argument that this offshoring represents structural unemployment.. like mechanization.. but there is a huge difference here:

with previous structural shifts which caused unemployment.. the shifts were isolated, allowing the middle class worker to learn a new trade and advance back to the point where their wage is sufficient to keep their family fed.

Now different jobs are being offshored in quick succession.. the middle class worker moves from one profession to the next, but because theyre offshored so quickly theyre never able to advance beyond entry level.. their income is permanently suppressed.

This is not good.. it's very threatening to the concept of a stable middle class.

Globalization is Evil (2, Interesting)

Luscious868 (679143) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272743)

I can't help but think of all of those poor buggy whip manufacturers who had their jobs eliminated when the automobile was first introduced. We should ban it .. oh wait ...

Welcome to "rent seeking" (4, Insightful)

FooAtWFU (699187) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272883)

As with most economic concerns like this, of course there are both winners and losers to globalization. The losers are the US workers and firms who were formerly employed in this industry. The winners are the workers elsewhere, and anyone who can now pay less for IT services (and less for products and services in general because the businesses in question can now pay less for IT services).

The gains from doing this are large, but very spread out. The losses are small, but concentrated. As a result, those who lose out have a big incentive to try and stop this from happening - more so than those who would gain from it. They may attempt to have the government regulate the practice. This is known to economists as rent seeking, when one group seeks the uncompensated transfer of wealth from others (people who buy IT) to themselves through government intervention. These Other People have to expend more resources to get the same things done. This is not a spectacularly noble cause, though it often is hailed in the name of "saving jobs".

But then, if our first concern should be about saving jobs, we ought to do away with computers entirely so there is more work to be done for paper-shufflers in offices. We can save the jobs of hundreds of thousands of office secretaries! Indeed, we could get rid of machines entirely and go back to simple hand tools for everything. Except, well, not.

Of course, that doesn't stop it all from happening. Take textiles. The average US family spends $160 more a year on textiles because of import quotas. Each job saved costs $221,000 a year. This is paid for by other people. Yay.

Re:Globalization is Evil (1)

nitemayr (309702) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272921)

Your analogy is incorrect. The demand did not disappear, only the means of production was moved. The "buggys", as you put it, are still out there, but now you call an individual in another country instead of another part of your country. This is the amazing "choose your own flame" summation! -Punchline Choice One Otherwise, you can continue to piss on the other kids, your somewhat suspect highground is still in good shape. -Punchline Choice Two Perhaps when we can call some other country and have their assholes piss all over our peers you can join in the pity party too; won't that be nice? Until then, save those pennies for a rainy day Champ!

What? (1)

Meor (711208) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272745)

People preach free software and wonder where the jobs go?

Perfect Capitalism Cuts Out the Soft Middle (1)

PornMaster (749461) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272751)

Eventually, perfect capitalism (aided by globalization) will cut out those who make money without adding commensurate value. It's gonna happen. Figure out how to add actual value.

Re:Perfect Capitalism Cuts Out the Soft Middle (1)

drsmithy (35869) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272913)

Eventually, perfect capitalism (aided by globalization) will cut out those who make money without adding commensurate value.

(I couldn't decide if your post was naive conviction or masterful satire, so I flipped a coin. Conviction won).

Not as long as those people are the ones running the show, it won't.

Re:Perfect Capitalism Cuts Out the Soft Middle (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272983)

Eventually we'll all be dead.

Second Law of Thermodynamics Argument (1, Insightful)

be-fan (61476) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272761)

Saying that outsourcing eliminates jobs because they eliminate jobs in IT is like saying evolution is impossible because of the second law of thermodynamics. A global relation (entropy increases or jobs increase), doesn't necessarily hold locally (entropy may decrease in one system, and jobs may decrease in one sector).

Economics doesn't saw anything about whether globalization will preserve jobs in a specific sector. What it does say is that it will tend to create jobs in the economy (both economies involved) as a whole. There isn't a lot of evidence to counter this claim.

Second Law of "Rippling" Argument (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272837)

I'd say that there's a "ripple effect" [slashdot.org] and that the money is going towards more deserving industries.

Outsourcing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272763)

I had my job outsourced 2 years ago, and I'm still looking. The Neocons are idiots, and not really conservatives. What we really
need to do is to outsource all government economists. They aren't worth $0.02 a year in my opinion...

Teddy Roosevelt - a Republican for the middle class.

This may be the effect of the dot com boom ending (4, Interesting)

techmuse (160085) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272771)

The IT sector hired far more people than normal as a result of the dot com boom. The IT market adjusted after the boom ended. The period they study includes the dot com crash. These jobs may simply have vanished along with the dot coms, rather than being outsourced.

Not "decimating" (0)

SiliconEntity (448450) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272783)

Globalization is not "decimating" US I.T. jobs. Decimating means destroying nine out of ten ("decimate" like in the decimal system). Losing 17.4% is a far cry from losing 90%. Let's try to restrain the hyperbole.

Re:Not "decimating" (2, Informative)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272807)

Decimating is killing one in ten.

17.5% would be like decimating... and then decimating the survivors.

Re:Not "decimating" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272857)

Ya, Decimating is killing one in ten.

You fail at both teh internets and teh maffs.

Gud wurk.

Re:Not "decimating" (1)

hairyface (717081) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272919)

In fact, "decimation" is from Latin and means "removal of a tenth". So losing 17,4% is _worse_ than decimation. The Roman army used it as an extreme punishment. Soldiers were divided into groups of 10 and drew lots to decide which one of them would be executed (by his comrades)!

Globalization goes both fucking way.. (4, Insightful)

Tracer_Bullet82 (766262) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272789)

How about all those Intel, AMD, Dell etc etc in Malaysia, Taiwan and around the world.

Didn't the lower cost of building all the components there help to decrease the prices of computing, encouraging demand. And wasn't the continuosly lowered cost of infrastructure/equipment an integral part of the computing/technological/information/internet revolution. Which incredibly benefited the US economically. Which provided jobs and increased jobs and increased pay scale during the late 90's and early 2000's.

So in other words:

globalization benificial to us: good
globalization detrimental to us: bad

news for ya: globalization works both fucking ways. You think jobs weren't decimated in third world/developing countries when they opened up their markets and have to compete with cheaper US products.

You benefited from it, now its someone else turns.

Or you can ask the US goverment to broke its own agreements and words, and strongarm it way to makes sure the deal is one sided. But don't put your hopes up. God knows it has never done that. And never will. well except maybe for that renmibi thing.. and that textilke subsidy thing..and...

waiting for Flamebait+7 and Troll+7

Re:Globalization goes both fucking way.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16273013)

How about all those Intel, AMD, Dell etc etc in Malaysia, Taiwan and around the world. Didn't the lower cost of building all the components there help to decrease the prices of computing, encouraging demand. And wasn't the continuosly lowered cost of infrastructure/equipment an integral part of the computing/technological/information/internet revolution. Which incredibly benefited the US economically. Which provided jobs and increased jobs and increased pay scale during the late 90's and early 2000's.
They're even stealing our question marks! Globalization sucks.

Hold on... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272801)

I thought we were in the middle of an IT growth trend? Some of the projections that I've seen from the U.S. Department of Labor and other sources say the growth is ongoing for at least the 6 years from now to a decade. Job growth and demand for IT is second only to those of Nurses, CNAs, and similiar medical fields.

Hell, check it for yourself at:
http://www.bls.gov/oco/oco2003.htm [bls.gov]

Re:Hold on... (2, Interesting)

creimer (824291) | more than 7 years ago | (#16273073)

It is and it isn't. There's a couple of trends going on here for growth in the general I.T. department. The baby boomers will be retiring over the next 30 years, so experienced people will be leaving the field. (The smart will consult because they can and the dumb one will do anything to avoid being a Wal-Mart greeter.) As the economies of China and India starts creating their own internal I.T. infrastructure, they won't be supplying the U.S. with workers. Since there's no sex in I.T. anymore (as Steve Jobs once said about the Apple product line), the college pipeline for new I.T. graduates to replace all those retiring baby boomers is virtually empty. In short, there will be new U.S. I.T. jobs but there won't be enough people in the world to meet the demand.

Five years ago I realized that this tidal wave was coming, I went back to school part-time to learn computer programming and started earning my certifications while working in the video game industry. At first, it was hard to get classes because they were too many students. Now I can't get the last two advance classes I need to graduate since there are not enough students to run a class. A year ago I got a job with the IBM Help Desk that's been great since I'm making enough money to rent my own apartment while only working 40 hours a week. No more 60 to 80 hour work weeks for me!

let me just ask... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272851)

Are his numbers accurate? This guy is obviously biased judging from his extreme attacks on the bush adminstration (it's also helpful to notice that this was published on an extreme left-wing site). But more importantly, i thought i'd go check out the Bureau of Labor Statistics site at www.bls.gov. In May 2001 there were 2,825,820 jobs classified as Computer and Mathematical. In may 2005, there were 2,952,740 jobs, an increase of 4.49%.
He even cites the company I work for as an example, saying Oracle has dumped thousands of jobs recently. What he doesn't mention is that most of these layoffs were due to acquisitions, where you have to eliminate duplicate jobs (and most of the pink slips were not in engineering). From what i can see, today Oracle employs more American-based engineers than ever before.

It is *EASY* to get a high paying job in IT (2, Interesting)

jorghis (1000092) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272859)

I work as a software engineer and the idea of losing my job to someone in who lives in India or some other place where the average salary couldnt cover the cost of rent in the worst of slums in America scares me a lot. But whenever I read an article (like this one) claiming that its already happened I feel a lot better because it makes me think that its just fearmongering.

I recently did a job search and had potential employers beating down my door, within a week of sending my resume out I had a half a dozen interviews lined up with well known companies that pay nicely. I know of noone in a different field who has been in a situation as good as that. The company I work for now is desperate to get more software engineers and cant find enough qualified people to fill even half of the open positions. So whenever I read an article like this about how "all the programmers are losing their jobs to the developing world" I cant help but think its just some journalists trying to scare people.

Maybe I'll be eating my words 10 years from now, but right now I am calling BS.

Re:It is *EASY* to get a high paying job in IT (1)

Stonehand (71085) | more than 7 years ago | (#16273011)

I think it depends upon the qualifications required. I know of an embedded software company, for instance, whose requirements are fairly selective due to the nature of the work, and they've tended to recruit heavily but reject most applicants. It's not a bad time for data miners, too, as far as I can tell. Experience with Oracle or Sybase administration isn't universal, either.

On the other hand, if the cards one holds are relatively common, like some basic imperative programming languages and perhaps some web development with ECMAScript, then looking competitive is going to be somewhat harder.

And mere UNIX/Linux system administration; well, well-designed machines don't NEED -that- many sysadmins, and having run a Linux box in college is hardly distinctive among computer science students, I'd suspect.

Oh poo! (1)

ttul (193303) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272873)

I'm Canadian and from my perspective, outsourcing is a good thing for Americans. Americans have long complained about the loss of jobs to foreign countries where wages are lower (such as Canada). The truth is that, despite this outsourcing, Americans are still far better off than workers in other countries. Americans earn more, have more time off, and have greater choice of employers than the workers in any other country in the world. Just ask any Canadian what the number one reason to move to the States is and he'll answer: it's the salary, stupid.

So what is the average geek to do about this outsourcing problem? Retire to India. For the amount your Prius will fetch on Craigslist, you can live like a king for many years in India.

Re:Oh poo! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16273059)

Ha... I've lived in the US, Canada, and now in the EU in a job where I interact with employees from all over the world- let me tell you that you're WAY off. Americans (North Americans) have some of the worst vacation in the world. The typical 2 weeks-4 weeks is laughable by the standards of Europeans, who often take 4 weeks off at a TIME!

While American pay is pretty good (but still not the best), we tend to work more hours and get less time off than other developed nations.

Outsourcing today, Automation Tomorrow (1)

cyberjessy (444290) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272899)

Outsourcing is like a motel en route to automation.

Most of the low tech jobs will eventually get replaced by computing anyway.
Call Centres:
Either with users being provided better do-it-urself tools (Like Interactive telephone based services), and websites. The population is getting more tech, savvy.
Programming:
Evolve better tools, languages. There is no need to implement a requirement, when the requirement definition itself could be an implementation. It is usually the architecting and coding that gets outsourced; redundant i'd say. [While I agree Ruby is a really inadequete example, atleast things dont get repeated out there.]

And finally, don't ban outsourcing in the meantime. Because America has benefitted from its own exports. Services are just another commodity, saying that it is not is akin to saying 'Services are the ONLY commodity' that should be exported.

And at the same time (1)

xenocide2 (231786) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272903)

People can buy Brand new desktop computers for as little as 300 dollars. Companies can afford more computing power for less than ever. The internet has the concentrated media networks scrambling for ways to cope with the flood of new distribution methods and authoring tools that slowly edge them out. Can we really sit here and criticize another industry for clinging to a system beneficial to themselves more than society as a whole, while carving out some sense of entitlment of our own?

Making a mountain of of a molehill (1)

pdovy (952071) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272935)

I'm no economist, but the following seems to make sense to me:

1. Many college-bound students went into CS/IT because it was heavily advertised as being lucrative, but not all of these people neccesarily have the skills or drive to become competent CS/IT professionals. The field is very dynamic, in that if you studied everything you know out of a book 5 years ago, most of that is useless now - if you can't keep up you're out. Introduce outsourcing into the equation .. there is a glut of overpaid, underskilled IT workers and they are losing their jobs to a more motivated, cheaper foreign workforce. How is this a surprise? This does not neccesarily mean that the same is happening to smart, driven individuals who make themselves valuable to their company.

2. The number of people going to college is continually growing larger. It is basically expected that most kids will go to college when they graduate high school, and so the prestige of a bachelors degree declines. College is today's high school and graduate school is today's college.

Moral of the story? Do your undergraduate work at a good school, then get a Master's. And don't go into IT just because it pays well and you "like computers".

Don't be so parochial (4, Interesting)

davidwr (791652) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272939)

Does it really matter if jobs go from LA to Las Vegas or from LA to Toronto or from LA to India? Either way, unless you are willing to follow the job and take the prevailing wage, you are still out of work.

It's a fact of life, almost any job that doesn't require your physical presence is relocateable. If the cost of moving raw materials abroad and the finished product back is low enough, and the difference in the cost of doing business is high enough, then everything else being equal you will see job migration.

If you want security from relocation, be a computer-equipment-installation technician. If you want security from offshoring, find a job that is "outsource-proof" such as certain defense-industry jobs.

The biggest issue in my mind isn't offshoring because overseas engineers work for half of what Americans charge, but offshoring of any type because costs imposed by the "American standard of living" are significantly greater than the equivalent costs in countries with a much lower standard of living. As long as we insist on things like clean air, good police protection, something approaching a "living wage" for our lowest-paid workers, good health care, safe cars, good infrastructure, etc. etc. etc., then we will have higher costs to do business here than in countries whose citizens don't demand these things. In a country or region without such costs, the cost of living will be much lower and wages can be lower while still having employees feel well-compensated.

There are parts of America with a relatively low payroll burden on companies and with relatively low costs-of-living. If your big-city job were suddenly transferred to some rural area 2000 miles away where 2/3 of your salary could let you live in a house twice the size of your existing one, but with the nearest big city 3 hours away, would you take the transfer or would you start sending out your resume? How about if it was transferred 10,000 miles away and the salary was 1/3, but even after paying for a flat the same size as the one you have now, you'd still be able to bank a huge amount each month?

Look on the bright side - the world and it's nearby neighbors are a closed system as far as the job market is concerned - no jobs are going to Alpha Centauri Prime any time soon.

I am not a troll. Just a realist.

Re:Don't be so parochial (2, Insightful)

FooAtWFU (699187) | more than 7 years ago | (#16273037)

As long as we insist on things like clean air, good police protection, something approaching a "living wage" for our lowest-paid workers, good health care, safe cars, good infrastructure, etc. etc. etc., then we will have higher costs to do business here than in countries whose citizens don't demand these things.

Indeed. But, look on the bright side - as those countries overseas are systematically enriched by doing business with a wealthy country like the United States, they will begin to insist on those things like clean air, health care, better infrastructure...

Solution By War (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272949)

Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Offshore Information Technology Outsourcing.

I propose the PATRIOOITO Act.

Free market (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16272965)

Sorry to say, but this is how the free market works. To keep your job, you'll have to ensure that you can offer something those off-shore workers can't and that you are offering it for a reasonable price (so that your employers prefers hiring you to them). While globalization sucks for the particular individuals who are temporarily losing their jobs and being forced to work more for less or change line of work, to the *consumer* it is a great thing because it lowers prices, and we are all consumers first and foremost. For each of those 600,000 people who lost their jobs, there are 500 Americans who are benefitting from freer trade.

H-1b Scapegoat (0, Offtopic)

MightyYar (622222) | more than 7 years ago | (#16272973)

This article, like many others of it's ilk, is against the H-1b visa program. I understand the criticism, and don't really deny it. However, one has to look at the positives that the program brings. As an immigration policy, the H-1b program is brilliant. Think about it, you bring in the rest of the world's best and brightest. Certainly the few thousand that come in via this program are preferable to the millions of poor and destitute that come across illegally? I think that the H-1b and student visa programs are essential to keeping the US at the forefront of the tech world.

PLEASE understand that I am not disparaging the Mexican immigrants... they tend to be hard workers, and they fill a vital role in our economy, even if we won't admit it. I'm simply arguing that it is good for the US to have as many of the world's best-and-brightest as possible. I'm arguing that allowing these people to come in and work actually benefits the economy enough to offset the jobs that they might displace.

One personal observation... It is very difficult to find US native candidates in engineering that are as qualified as many of these H-1b candidates. Filling a job vacancy can take a very long time, especially when our co-op/internship pipeline runs dry. We end up hiring foreigners as often as not. Their pay is lower, but only because their "foreign" degree is not really considered. All that I have had experience with received a bachelor's degree in their home country and then received a masters in the US. They are paid at the same level as a US bachelor's degree in many cases. I don't know if this is fair or not, but that seems to be the norm and it doesn't seem to affect the salaries of the native Americans that we hire. Actually, I think I stated that poorly. We seek an H-1b candidate with a US masters to fill the same position that we would staff with a native candidate who only has a bachelor's degree. The salaries would be the same for the same position. I know that one's personal experience is not statistically valid, but I do think that others share this experience.

This is a good thing... (5, Insightful)

jacoplane (78110) | more than 7 years ago | (#16273007)

From the perspective of someone who is not American, this is a good thing. It means that unions in rich countries are no longer able to keep the rest of the world poor. Poor people in Romania who have excellent IT skills have the freedom and opportunity to enter the capitalist system and compete on the global market.

The Americans spent 50 years trying to win the cold war so the guy in Romania would have this opportunity. Would you now turn around and say "Sorry, we're going to be implementing some socialist protectionist measures.... we didn't expect American workers to have to compete with you".

Looking at the IT landscape, it seems clear to me that the American IT industry is the most vibrant and resilient in the world. Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, HP, Wikipedia, Myspace, Youtube, etc. are organisations which saw the light of day in America. Please don't react in a spastic way when the rest of the world looks at what you're doing and tries to do something similar.

The American president keeps talking about "freedom". For me, freedom includes the freedom to compete with American workers.

Walk the walk....

Not Just IT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16273033)

He're another eye opener: U.S. homework outsourced as "e-tutoring" grows [sciam.com]

This is embarrassing. Not only are jobs being outsourced, but now we're asking people in foreign countries to help train our children.

At this rate, in twenty years, the US will be the China of the 60's, and China/India will be outsourcing manufacturing to the US while they develop the next generation of technology (fusion, electronics, space tech, etc).

But hey, look on the bright side. 1% of the population of the US will control 95 percent of the wealth.

Not really about globalization (1)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 7 years ago | (#16273043)

We have several issues. The bigger one is that we have wrapped IT in a very expensive set-up. Windows is dollar for work about the most expensive approach that you can take. Worse, our gov. has been pushing Windows over the last 6 years, even when organizations such as NSA, CIA, and even now DOD push mainframes earlier, followed by POSIX, and now OSS (specifically Linux). Companies and gov. are going down a path that is horribly expensive. Interestingly, there are companies/gov that are moving to much lower costs software. THey are being done outside of the USA and will do for our software industry exactly what Toyota/honda/nission/kia/etc have done to Detroit.
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