How Warcraft Doesn't Have To Wreck Lives 274
robustyoungsoul writes "From the same guild leadership as the fellow who started an internet storm with his post about his experience in WoW comes a different point of view: it doesn't have to consume your life." From the article: "I got a Masters degree in policy from one of the most difficult schools in the country while at the same time playing WoW and working a part time job. I would come home from a busy day and think about how to use what I learned to make the guild work better. It was a way for me to practice what I was learning and to discover what was involved with leading people (mostly getting all the blame and no thanks, it seems :P). I've learned the lessons of clear communication, sacrifice, compassion, tough love ... and balance. I plan to use these skills in my professional life. So in short, I play the game because I get something tangible out of it."
Check slashdot tomorrow (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Check slashdot tomorrow (Score:5, Funny)
Zapp Brannigan: "What makes a man turn neutral
or
Zapp Brannigan: "I hate these filthy neutrals Kif! With enemies you know where they stand but with neutrals? Who knows! It sickens me."
what is with these guys? (Score:3, Interesting)
Now this guy is claiming to have a "Masters degree in policy from one of the most difficult schools in the country".
Is there a hyperbole filter here on Slashdot
Go meta! (Score:3, Funny)
Simple (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Simple (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Simple (Score:4, Informative)
Correct. And the blizzard guys have made this so. I was one of those people who wanted to hop on or hop off. Play solo, or do small quests with small groups of friends that would only take 30 minutes, 1 hour, or max 2 hours at a time.
But blizzard doesnt produce content like that, so a lot of the people like me, including me, stopped playing. The game is remarkably good at this type of content from levels 1-40. However, the developers seem to focus more on 20, 40, 60 man raid dungeons, and not single player quests. You cant really be functional and play WOW at high levels, unfortunately. High level WOW play requires 8 hour raids. It requires constantly running dungeons and PVP for items. And that sucks for me, but some people love it (the so called 'addicts'), and thats what they pay for.
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BTW, I play in a high-end raiding guild, and we are quite functional with 3-hour raids, 4 times a week. Still a lot, but nothing like these mythical '8-hour 60-man' endeavors you're pulling out of your ass.
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I quit WoW earlier this year, myself. I had the time to play, but I never seemed to have the uninterrupted time to play. I'm really itching for the expansion pack, though. (Plus the other improvements I may have missed.)
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"And again, i'd bet that there are more people pissing away their lives on WoW than their are people who can just hop on and off (alternatively, who cares about the people who are perfectly functional on and off WoW, shouldn't we be worrying about the people pissing their lives away, since they're the ones in trouble?)."
That's like asking, "shouldn't we foc
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Yes and we shouldn't bother doing surgery on brain tumor victims, because they're such a small percentage of the population.
If there are avoidable hazards, or you can engineer a system to reduce known risks, shouldn't you?
I mean, i'd like to think that most people find it despicable when car manufacturers decide that it's cheaper simply to pay off litigants who've had famil
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And if you really want to c
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Nope, not my problem.
Also, who are you to tell somebody what to do with their life? I know people that play WoW all day and some that just play an hour a night.
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Great, way to haul out a republican/libertiarian/conservative knee-jerk. Go you! You can meaninglessly repeat what other people have told you!
Also, who are you to tell somebody what to do with their life?
I'm not telling anybody how to live their lives. But, i think that people should be aware of the consequences of their behavior, and i don't think that a lot of people think through their actions, or, particularly in the case of addictive behaviors, the risk of certain behavi
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Quoi? (Score:3, Funny)
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Or maybe the day that people decided higher education was an asset towards climbing out of destitution, and misery?
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Yeah, right after it puts you through years of destitution and misery.
All it takes is (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:All it takes is (Score:5, Interesting)
Indeed. The original article is "popular" or "important" because it's to introduce people to the knowledge that there is a phenominon in the game culture that can extend outside the actual game (talk about virtual reality, hehe). Not that, "gaming in moderation" can be good for you.
What is interesting, however, is the fact that these online games (having a virtual social and economic society) can actually be used to find the effects of 'real' world social and economic theories theories. I be interested in reading an article written about using WoW to try and munipulate market prices through supply and demand in an online economy (one which has limitless but rare materials) or other economic and social theories to see how they hold true in todays popular virtual worlds.
How about running guilds in a communist, democratic, and socialist way and compare the differences in impact? Do online gamers have inherent social beliefs based on their real world counterpart (depending where you live), or would a person living in a real-world democracy actually favor an opposing view point?
Cheers,
Fozzy
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http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/06
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Balance (Score:5, Insightful)
+1, Obvious.
It's all about balance, people. I love my gaming time, but I don't give up food, sleep, work, etc. just to play my two MMORPGs (SWG and Eve Online). Maybe it's just that my games don't require 4 hour instances at the end game or maybe I just know when I'm tired, hungry, or have other commitments.
Sometimes you just have to say "Hey guys, I'm starving/tired/going to do something else for a while, see you later."
Re:Balance (Score:5, Insightful)
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There are alcoholics in pretty much every country, and other folks who can be only social drinkers and not go overboard.
There are folks addicted to gambling all across the world, and other folks who never gamble, or just do a bit now an then for fun.
Being from any certain culture doesn't give automatic immunity from a lack of self control or addiction. It will mearly lower it's rate in the population if there are laws or cultural tab
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In the on-line world Canada is often thought of as another state in the North American Union, and as a home is about as interesting a piece of personal information as is being from Michigan or Ohio.
I still have not met anyone from Mexico, however.
Re:Balance (Score:5, Informative)
I am someone who has recently given up WoW after being an officer one of the top raiding guilds on a maximum population server for the last year and a half (over 110 days
All things considered, for me, WoW was one viscious self-perpetuating positive feedback loop. I'm glad I'm done "doing time".
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Re:Balance (Score:4, Insightful)
So. Don't go after that loot.
That brand new 30" LCD is too expensive. The BMW is too expensive. Being well equpped in WoW is too expensive. People make their choices. Some people (like me) chose to play WoW a lot but not THAT much. I've been playing since soon after it came out and I'm just starting into ZG and MC. Tradeoffs will always exist. Make the choices you want to make.
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Fun, but I just can't see myself getting addicted to it. People on there 10 hours a day clearly aren't working full time, then coming home to cook dinner and chop firewood
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- Christmas Shopping
- Writing letters to old friends
- Tending to the house/yard/animals
- Creating somet
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How is it creative when all the characters are the same and and are all chasing the same equipment?
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I've been playing WoW for a year and my "main" is still only a level 37. I have four "alts" all scattered between level 12 and 25.
I play almost exclusively solo. My two highest level characters are in a guild, but only because it's run by my best RL friend and he doesn't expect me to raid or contribute to the guild, it's simply a way for me to avoid "sign my charter" reque
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But... What if it's the third attempt at Rag? (Score:2)
I got a masters in Aerospace (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I got a masters in Aerospace (Score:5, Insightful)
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My wife and I have played maybe 4-6 hours per week for almost two years now. Sure, we're just reaching level 50 at that pace but we've had fun without wrecking our real lives.
Article is ridiculous (Score:2)
WoW is an extremely easy game marketed to the average player. Everquest was much more difficult, and required much more time. You couldn't do anything in that game without devoting 4 straight hours, usually double that if you were in a high-end guild. It puts WoW to shame.
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Lives? (Score:5, Funny)
Uh huh... (Score:5, Informative)
That's what I thought when I was at the university playing Magic: The Gathering [wikipedia.org] until the wee hours of the morning. I got something tangible out of it when I was kicked out of the university: a full-time resturant job. Nothing like learning about the real world between a hot cooking area and a cold walk-in cooler.
Re:Uh huh... (Score:5, Funny)
Hmm, seems like you could have tapped a couple of plains and given yourself Glacial Plating when walking by the cooking area.
See, Magic CAN help you in real life.
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Called a sweatshirt. It kept my body temperature from the two extremes and protected my arms from getting the usual assortment metal and splatter burns.
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Excatly how *I* use COD2 (Score:5, Funny)
It's been said before... (Score:4, Insightful)
Which is why... (Score:2)
I agree. Which is why I wonder why people try to ban smoking and regulate drinking and gambling. If you get hooked easily, you should just stay away from drinking, smoking and gambling.
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Agreement (Score:4, Interesting)
i can much agree with the positive impression, but for different reasons. I have 50+ hour work life and i'm happily married. My goal in WoW is not to complete the T2 set ASAP (it is bound to happen anyway some day) or to learn management (better: herding of cats), but to recreate. It's a great tool (and just a tool) for that. No more, but no less...
Regards, Martin
Motto... (Score:4, Funny)
Sure, but their motto on "raid day" was "WTF N00B GET UR ASS ON UR MAIN WERE RAIDING!!!11"
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And? If I want to knit woolen bags on my alt rather than raid, the guild can fuck off, I'm going to knit my woolen bags.
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The easiest way. . . (Score:4, Funny)
Re:The easiest way. . . (Score:4, Interesting)
Everything is about priorities. If WoW is enjoyable, do it! But even enjoyable things should be done in moderation. It's possible to find a quality raiding guild that doesn't require you to run three nights a week...May take a little while, but that's the way it goes. Takes just as long to get in a hardcore raiding guild, with the whole interview/trial period bs.
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"...where grinding on the stairmaster is guaranteed to dramatically increase your potential for having women approach you if you keep your mouth shut."
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naysayer (Score:4, Interesting)
And it's true. You cannot have as strong of a social/outside life when you play a video game for 8 hours a day, unless you live on a planet that has 32 hour days.
If I didn't see it ruin so many people personally, I wouldn't feel so strongly about it. No one said it wuld automatically make you do bad in school. If you have little to no social life, you have plenty of room for your schoolwork and WoW.
He's simply in denial.
MMOs lead to grinding, grinding leads to suffering (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:MMOs lead to grinding, grinding leads to suffer (Score:2)
With each release EQ has become easier and more Wow like.
EQ was always about when you could log on more than about your skill (if you could log on at 3pm and get all the rare spawns/gear before the rest of the world got home, you win!). But the last vestages of skill probably left about 2 years ago. It had a serious increase in wimpiness/friendliness. The old EQ was *cruel* and *hard*. You screw up, you lose ALL your gear that took hundreds of
Re:MMOs lead to grinding, grinding leads to suffer (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry, I had to!!
But seriously, its true. They show this in the southpark episode. The only way to compete with the uber-griefer was to become even bigger losers than he was! It is completely possible to just not care about being the most-uber and just play the game to have fun. I play about 5 hours a week. I am not level 60, and wont be for a while, but it doesnt matter because I get to enjoy some wow with my life, not have it BE my life.
That is what I like about
I think the guy is right: however... (Score:2)
WoW makes has numerous things to make it an addictive game. And the guy does express something important here. He never beat a game in his life. For everyone else who usually finishes what they start the whole game is a time sink and certainly one with such a vague and moving forward objective that it hurts.
http://www.wowdetox.com/ helps a lot of people out.
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Read the in-game tips! (Score:2, Informative)
"Remember to do all things in moderation. (Including World of Warcraft!)"
This isn't as simple as "self control" (Score:5, Insightful)
First, WoW is beautiful. Yes, it's cartoonish, but it's got character and depth. I, for one, just like seeing new things, exploring new places. There comes a point within WoW that you can't do anything new unless you get to the end game content. All of which requires heavy guild involvement... to the point mentioned in the first article. Strat can be beautiful, and I regret never seeing Naxx (and only once getting into AQ). But unless I was willing to devote myself heart and soul to a guild - I was relegated to pick-up groups for the "lesser" instances... and forget ever seeing AQ40 or Molten Core. Once you reach these points, starting over isn't an option. You've seen it, you've done it. And no matter how you've convinced yourself that you're not grinding levels in Loch Modan, starting over only offers an extreme amount of drudgery. (Switching from Alliance to Horde only delays the inevitable)
Second, WoW is just to easy to level up. Too many times you hear about people getting to 60 without a clue of what to do next. You get this consistent endorphin rush every time you "ding". And that's great. It helps keep you moving forward through some of the dull spots (think levels 37-40). But once you've hit 60 you've invested a huge amount of time in a character... whether that's hours upon hours a day for a couple months, or a relaxed pace over a year. It feels like you're abandoning your alter ego to just quit playing. You want to push forward, but you can't. Hence, you've got to run after epic loot and instances.
And Third... friends. I've made a lot of friends in-game. We've been through a lot together (all of us utterly refusing to ever step foot in Gnomeregan again). And many of them (especially the married couples that both play) want to continue forward. Once again, you're relegated to the outside... shoved off unless you want to grind for Cenarion rep in Silithus.
All three of these led to my WoW burnout. I was bumped from my "elite" guild because I didn't want to spend 20 hours a week on top of job and social life. Getting put back in the "feeder" guild, while it sounds fine, just felt awful. My friends had all moved on, and I was shoved aside and forgotten (much like the original article). Eventually, I've found another server (too many familiar faces on the old one) and a nice, casual guild. But then again... the first guild started out nice and casual as well...
It's the gamers fault. (Score:4, Insightful)
That said, however, I certainly don't think Blizzard or any other developer is responsible for anyone who gets addictive. These companies want players subscribed for a couple of years, but I doubt it's anyone's intention that they have players addicted to these games like they were drugs.
It's easy for someone to say they can stop playing whenever they want. There are also people who think playing games 40 hours a week is casual gaming. The point is that for someone who has become truly addicted they've lost all self-control. They can't stop. They feel agitated when they're not playing; the game is constantly on their mind. What they need is help, in one form or another.
Regardless of the nature of the addiction, it ultimately is that player's fault. They made the decision to install the game and start playing. The fact that they lost themselves to the game is ultimately their own fault.
My concern is that there are lawyers out there already licking their chops. It's only a matter of time before we start seeing lawsuits against these developers.
Much like the lawsuits against the tobacco companies. In at least the past 20 years we've known smoking is bad. Even if these people didn't know when they started, they must have learned since then. Why didn't they find a way to stop? The company may have been questionable to selling such a product, but ultimately it's the consumer's fault. I mean, using the rationale for suing those companies we might as well sue all automakers for enabling us to put ourselves in harm's way.
The question here isn't whether games like WoW are addictive, because they clearly are. It's whether people are going to be mature and responsible enough to acknowledge their own fault in all this. Unfortunately, as history has shown in this culture of the victim, too many people are going blame everyone but themselves.
And just wait until gaming reaches a point where it's photo-realistic, approaching something like the realism of the holodeck. We haven't seen anything yet.
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I understand that slot machines operate on similar principles. I have often thought that video games might serve as an effective way to transfer gambling add
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The effort of building and running an eq guild (Score:2)
It was like life at triple speed.
I learned how to recognize users a lot better.
I learned a lot about logistics.
I learned things that help me in my daily job as a project lead.
I was a natural leader before- but doing the guild bit was trial by fire.
These days.. I play about 6 hours a week tho. It's a game and I have RL stuff that is fun to do. It was a glorious period from 1999 to 2001 tho.
Be moderate in everything, including moderation. (Score:2)
American general and diplomat
(1837 - 1921)
How did a guy that died 85 years ago know about WoW?
What a difficult concept.
Warcraft doesn't wreck lives. Players wreck lives (Score:2)
Re:Warcraft doesn't wreck lives. Players wreck liv (Score:2)
A lot of the things you mentioned are physically addictive though. There is a substantative difference between activities that just require control and things that will actually make your body feel differently if you don't have them. I know the difference because I'm a s
it seems MMO's are only a problem (Score:2, Insightful)
All of this has already happened w/ EverCrack, more than 4 years ago
We knew of all the problems back then, no one cared
EverCrack Addiction: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/28/earlysho w/living/caught/main510302.shtml [cbsnews.com]
http://pc.ign.com/articles/356/356673p1.html [ign.com]
Compassion? (Score:2)
Leaders and "Friends" in WoW (Score:2)
What is up with people saying that they've made so many "friends" in WoW? Look, if you meet up with someone in RL that you met in WoW in and you get along, that's more of a friend. Talking t
Time to move on (Score:2)
Not Self Control (Score:2)
Whether imagined or real, people often feel pressure to be there for their guild, to help out their friends, and generally participate in the social group that has been formed. It's a very basic human trait, and I would say much more difficult to deal with or just switch off. I actually suspect most people, if they were playing WoW or whatever sol
Hahahha, get a life... (Score:2)
A visit to the dump - a reality check (Score:4, Insightful)
I went over to visit him the other day. I must say that I was totally grossed out. He owns his own house, but could no longer open the front door. I had to come in the back through the kitchen. There were dirty dishes piled all over and he didn't even have a clean glass to offer me a drink. There was trash piled everywhere and a little path through the rest of his house. He had two office rolling chairs to sit in. Everything else was covered with trash. He was sleeping on the floor and there were dirty clothes strewn everywhere.
When I went to use the bathroom, there were dozens of empty toilet paper rolls strewn around the floor. When I lifted the lid on the toilet to take a leak, there was a huge turd plugging the drain. I tried to lift the plunger next to the toilet out of it's bucket, but it was stuck to the bucket. I was just thoroughly disgusted. I stayed for a little while longer. On my way out, I told him that he needed to unplug, go buy some trash bags and throw this crap away. He blushed and said he knew. I said yeah, but obviously he wasn't doing anything about it and somebody needed to say something. I doubt I got through to him, but don't know if I can go back.
For every 6 out of 7 MMORPG players that are leading productive, healthly lives, there are those ones that have lost total control of their lives. They have forgotten about the real world and let everything go. They need serious help! I just don't know who is going to give it to them. I don't know if I can help or would just be wasting my time going back to him. I've tried to help others before and get them cleaned up and the next time you go back they're just as bad or worse. How do you help a friend in dire need of a reality check?
South Park had a nice episode about WoW (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBBbM2iFQ1g [youtube.com]
Re:How Warcraft Doesn't Have to Wreck Lives... (Score:5, Insightful)
You do not know about addiction (Score:3, Insightful)
No, it really isn't, not at all. the inability to limit yourself is a lack of moderation, not addiction.
Playing WoW for 3 hours does not qualify you to speak about addiction, it simply points to the fact you have a very poor sense of time.
I spent every day of my form the age of 21 to the age of 29 shooting Heroin. That is addiction. I stole form friends family and strangers to get more drugs. I lied to everybody in my life to try and hide my problem. I got d
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Most smokers OTOH are de facto smoking addicts. Ditto heroin, or any number of other highly addictive substances. It isn't just about what the consequences for use are, it's about how hard it is to stop. What seperates heroin from smoking is the monetary cost; you don't need to break the law to pay for ciggarettes.
Booze and games both have large "user" bases that aren't hooked. The add
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And you can be damned sure they made it that way intentionally. Allow me to compare with City of Heroes, arguably one of the best MMOs for the casual gamer. No items to really worry about, quick missions, excellent party locator, trains and travel powers.
Their goal was to make it as simple as possible to get somewhere because that is not necessarily
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Is the reason that some people don't get addicted to WoW because they're just too busy with other things? I can't imagine playing 10 hours per day, doesn't it get boring after too long?
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I played entirely too much Wolfenstein 3D back in the day. That doesn't make me too old, but this does: the only reason that I tried Wolfenstein 3D was because of all of time that I spent playing the original Castle Wolfenstein on an Apple ][+.
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A person can work damned hard, and really sweat it out...to get to the same place that everyone else got to with a lawnmower. Good job. Now that he's struggled to get to middle, what's next? The mailroom?
Addicts always deny they're addicted (Score:2)
True, but don't almost all addicts say "I'm not addicted. I have it under control."? I really don't care whether the guy offering an alternative view of WoW really does have it under control or not because it's not my problem either way, but he could be just another person living in denial.