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Sony Defends Rumble Loss

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the we-didn't-want-to-pay-the-money dept.

145

Eurogamer reports on comments from Sony defending the loss of rumble in the SIXAXIS controller. "'I think the caveat to that statement always has to be based on the fact that when we make a pad, we're making maybe 150, 200 million of them,' Harrison explains. 'So it has to be done at a price, and it has to be done at a volume that fits our production requirements. I think the decision that we've made to build in the SIXAXIS functionality, and Bluetooth wireless, and great battery life, and all the other functionality that comes with it, far outweighs the chatter that we're getting on vibration. And, it's incredibly light! Just pick it up!'"

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welp (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16596718)

first post says cock

A Poor Tradeoff (5, Insightful)

miyako (632510) | more than 7 years ago | (#16596784)

I think that sony really made a poor tradeoff with losing rumble and adding the sixaxis thing (though it's actually only THREE axises (axies?) being that +/-X is one axis, +/-Y is an axis, and +/-Z is an axis, but anyway...). The thing about rumble support is that game pads have had it for so long now that (for me anyway) I don't notice when it's there, but I certainly notice when it's missing.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16596908)

Don't forget the three rotational axes: pitch, yaw, and roll.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (1)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597934)

Which are just motion through 2 of the 3 foremention x,y,and z axises. So again, only 3 axis.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (2, Insightful)

Hillgiant (916436) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598368)

Rotation is distinctly different from translation.

Rotation != translation (1)

paladinwannabe2 (889776) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598732)

To expand on the previous response to the parent, If you rotate a ball it won't change it's X,Y, or Z position- but that is clearly motion that you could track. Thus, roll, pitch and yaw are independant of X,Y, and Z movement.

I work with machines doing 4 axis movement. You can't do everything with only 3 (though with 5 you can fake the 6th).

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (2, Interesting)

Dolohov (114209) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598788)

No, the rotational axes are indeed axes in their own right. You cannot back out yaw, pitch, and roll from X,Y,Z accelerometers. Thus, there really are six axes here.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (1)

w1ll0w (658777) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598868)

The 6 axises refer to the 2 analog x & y's and the pitch and roll of the tilt. There is no yaw on the controller.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16596940)

I haven't read enough about it, but are pitch, yaw, and roll excluded from the axes?

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (4, Interesting)

UbuntuDupe (970646) | more than 7 years ago | (#16596962)

Of course it was stupid to remove rumble, and of course it wasn't necessary to support the motion sensing. Sony's just trying to make the best of bad deal. The rumble patent is probably the one part of the PS3 development/marketing on which I actually sympathize with them. The patent was total crap. Way to broad, way too obvious. We should be thanking Sony for trying to fight patent, rather than rewarding Immersion through settling.

Everything else Sony has done is boneheaded (going for overpriced design, trying to impose BluRay through the PS3, arrogant statements, E3 screwups, poor production management), but on the rumble patent, I do feel for them.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (2, Insightful)

Fozzyuw (950608) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598028)

Everything else Sony has done is boneheaded (going for overpriced design, trying to impose BluRay through the PS3, arrogant statements, E3 screwups, poor production management), but on the rumble patent, I do feel for them.

I have to agree, the Rumble feature, while I feel is an important tool for gaming, would not attribute much to poor sales alone, if they happen. I would predict that it's all about price point, no matter how 'great' a system is. Just look at the NeoGeo.

Actually, I also believe it's not going to be just the high price but also the low price that's going to hurt it. From talking to some of my friends at local game stores, I 'hear' that there's some 'talk' about people just getting it for a cheap Blu-Ray player and these people have little interest in actual gaming. It's going to be quite deceiving to 3rd party companies. Sony will be able to post signs that their consoles are having 'strong' sales, but a percentage of those sales will never play a game because their being purchased as movie players by 'early adopter' enthusiasts.

I'm just worried that their price point is going to kill them for 1) being too high for gamers and 2) being too low for Blue-Ray players, making some sales used less or not at all for gaming.

It's the games that sell the system, not the system that sells the games. If games don't sell on the PS3 (due to the reasons cited above), Sony will have to dump a lot of money into building a ladder to get out of their hole (which will get deep the more ladder they have to build).

Cheers,
Fozzy

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (1)

Dev59 (953144) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598438)

I doubt that sales of the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player will really account for much. Adoption of the high definition optical formats has been extremely slow and a $500-600 price tag isn't going to cut it. When players start getting closer to the $200-300 range I expect that the formats will start making more serious strides.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (1)

Total_Wimp (564548) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598616)

Couple things

1) I don't get it about the vibration thingy. Did y'all really like that? I found it quite anoying and turned it off whenever I could. I just assumed they took it out because of poor responses from focus groups or something. I was quite surprised to hear such a backlash about this. Does this actually either help, or broaden the experience of your gaming? More power to ya and sorry it's gone, but if you(coletively) wouldn't have brought it up, I wouldn't have noticed.

2)High sales numbers because of Blu Ray only. So what? If they have a box with high demand from a bunch of different types of users, why is this a bad thing?

Sure, you claim they need to sell games to make money, but you forget Sony is very much in the movie business. People buy a whole lot more movies than games because of cheaper prices, shorter entertainment intervals (you may play a game for weeks, but only watch a move once or twice) and much broader demographics (movie demographis make the Wii's overatures to the "casual" gamer seem laughable when you compare the total potential market size) Even though margins are smaller for movies, the larger volume could very well make up for the difference. The more Blu Ray players they put in consumer hands, the faster they start to make that movie money, and the faster the PS3 is seen as a net profit center.

BTW, yes, you can do the math for movie profit per PS3, even though there are a lot of different Blu Ray players. If the PS3 is, say 30% of the Blu Ray install base and consumer surveys show an average of 5 Blu Ray discs per each PS3-only household, then that represents a profit you can attribute to the PS3. But is it just canabalism that otherwise would have gone to stand-alone Blue Ray players? Once again, so what? Getting an install base out there makes them profits. It doesn't matter whether those profits come from stand-alone or PS3, just as long as the consumer has a player that will entice themt o buy profitable Blu Ray discs.

TW

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (1)

CrabbMan (724775) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598958)

1) I don't get it about the vibration thingy. Did y'all really like that?

Yup. It was one more output from the system to let me know what was going on in my video game world. I suppose the best example I could give is that it was a great way to know I was being attacked by an enemy outside my field of view. So it's a trade-off: I get three more degrees of input to the system, but I lose one output to me. That might have been helpful back in the day when I needed Mario to jump that little extra bit, but I'm pretty sure there are already enough buttons on a PS2 control to do anything I need.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598918)

Of course it was stupid to remove rumble, and of course it wasn't necessary to support the motion sensing. Sony's just trying to make the best of bad deal. The rumble patent is probably the one part of the PS3 development/marketing on which I actually sympathize with them. The patent was total crap. Way to broad, way too obvious. We should be thanking Sony for trying to fight patent, rather than rewarding Immersion through settling.

Yeah, this is obviously just a case of sour grapes when they were denied the use of rumble due to losing the lawsuit. Their post-facto justifications ring terribly hollow as a result. It's really just spin control. If they didn't make rumble sound like a non-feature, then people might think the other consoles were better for including rumble, obviously not what Sony wants. They can't just come out and say what is obviously the truth: "We would have loved to include rumble instead of this sixaxis BS, but we lost a patent infringement lawsuit so we can't." The truth hurts when you're in marketing.

While the patent sucks, I still don't feel sorry for Sony. You can't be such a strong proponent of Intellectual Property laws (I'm deliberately using the over-general term that companies like Sony made popular) without expecting to get bitten by them yourself when you infringe someone else's IP. Is the patent silly? Yes. Are a thousand pieces of IP produced by Sony equally silly, and equally likely to get you sued if you violate them? Yes. I feel no more sorry for Sony than I feel sorry for a fantasy novel villain who is dragged down into the abyss by the horrible demon they themselves summoned.

I won't feel sorry for Sony until they recognize the harm the current state of IP law is doing and start speaking out against it. Not likely to happen for quite a while, and frankly I hope this happens to Sony again, and again, and again, and to any other strong-IP proponent, until they either wake up and realize these laws are damaging the industry or go bankrupt in their obstinance.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597048)

The other three "axes" (in addition to the three translational axes you mentioned) are supposed to refer to the rotational axes. You have to admit that rotation is very different from translation.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597106)

Actually, you are referring to 3 dimensions. It is six axes: X (horizontal), Y (vertical), Z (fore/aft), Pitch, Roll, and Yaw.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (1)

eskwayrd (575069) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597678)

Actually, you are referring to 3 dimensions. It is six axes: X (horizontal), Y (vertical), Z (fore/aft), Pitch, Roll, and Yaw.

Do you live in a 6-dimensional world? Really? Tell us what it's like!

What do you think Pitch, Roll, and Yaw refer to? Those would be vertical, horizontal, and fore/aft respectively.

You could invent additional labels to represent the 3 axes of our three dimensional environment, but that doesn't translate into additional axes (although you can translate along an axis... <badum chsh> :-)

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597890)

Do you live in a 6-dimensional world?


You are engaging in equivocation. There are six logically orthogonal dimensions or axes in the SIXAXIS system. The state it returns cannot be fully specified in three dimensions. Yes, it exists in a space with three spatial dimensions, so what? Its state is more than a position in those dimensions.

What do you think Pitch, Roll, and Yaw refer to? Those would be vertical, horizontal, and fore/aft respectively.


No, wrong. Pitch refers to rotation around the horizontal axis, roll to rotation around fore/aft axis, and yaw to rotation around the vertical axis, respectively. They are not equivalent to displacement/transaltion on those three axes, nor do you associate the right axis with the right rotation, in the first place.

A location is fully specified by three dimensions, and the orientation of the controller by three more; as the controller reports both position and orientation, it has six independent axes or dimensions.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (1)

miyako (632510) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598430)

It took me a minute to parse what you were trying to say, but basically you are saying that the SIXAXIS controller uses six axies, basically three axies on which the controller can be translated, and then the three rotational axies with the origin at the center of gravity of the controller.
That does actually make sense, I didn't realize that the controller supported translation and rotation (I was actually under the impression that transation wasn't recognized, and that it basically sensed tilt only).

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597566)

It's 6 axis. 3 translational axes, 3 rotational axes.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (1)

Dev59 (953144) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598372)

Does this conversation have to come up every single time the PS3 controller is mentioned in a Slashdot thread?

Re:A Poor Tradeoff (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16598764)

I've personally always hated the rumble feature that was in most games. In any game where it wasn't essential to gameplay I turned it off. This isn't an uncommon opinion either, I don't know anyone who isn't glad that rumble is getting removed. The only thing I am concerned about is that they may not be as comfortable to hold if they're so light.

Since when? (4, Insightful)

CaseM (746707) | more than 7 years ago | (#16596800)

Since when is "light" a selling point for controllers? Most sites that have hands-on experience with the PS3 mark that one in the negative column.

Talk about desparate...

Re:Since when? (1)

Flame0001 (818040) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597098)

Personally, I prefer a controller that feels like a real controller. Not a cheesy plastic extreme-mass-production model, but one that I'd have second thoughts about tossing across the room.

Re:Since when? (1)

PygmySurfer (442860) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597828)

I'd prefer a controller that I'd NOT have second thoughts about tossing across the room. If it's too light, I might feel like it'll break if it falls off the couch, let alone when I throw it at the TV. A controller should feel solid and hefty, like it'll take a good deal of abuse, and come back for more.

Re:Since when? (1)

Captain Splendid (673276) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598072)

If it's too light, I might feel like it'll break if it falls off the couch, let alone when I throw it at the TV.

Which is why the Xbox is the platform of choice if you're prone to do that. Both my controllers (one super-size original and one smaller S model) both get thrown regularly (and with mucho spite), and, well, you should see the other guys!

Re:Since when? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597126)

There is no valid excuse for not including rumble.
Motion sensor and rumble don't have to be used at the same time (assuming that'd be an issue)...
When correctly used, rumble adds a ton of immersion.
It adds tactile feedback to the gaming experience, complementing audio and video.

I just can't imagine a game like PGR3 without rumble - you literally "feel" it when the car is losing grip. And in cockpit mode, you "feel" when the tires are hitting the curb (and you know you're achieving the best line).

In FPS is gives a very natural way to give instant damage feedback without having to clutter the screen with color markers, etc (like in FarCry).
It's also very immersive to be able to feel the vibration of the weapon as you shoot - the rumble associated with a heavy machine gun is just awesome (like in GRAW).
In Halo, once you charged up the plasma pistol, you could feel its power waiting to be released.

Splinter Cell has those fun lock picking minigames, all based on rumble.

In HalfLife2, the game took me by surprise when I felt the subtle vibrations of an incoming train, even before I could hear it.

Sure you can make games without all this. You could also forget go back to stereo instead of DB5.1 or go back to 256 color palettes.

Re:Since when? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597248)

Since when is "light" a selling point for controllers?

Since before this mad rush of hostility toward Sony? Before this desperate search for "valid" argument points against the exclusion of the vibration feature? And exactly when has "light" not been a selling point for handheld devices? For a controller that will have to be held in the air (as using the motion sensing feature would be difficult while resting the controller in your lap), it's weight is of significant concern. The lighter the better.

I'm glad I won't have to be opening the SIXAXIS controller to rip out the vibrators like I did with the DualShock2. Never liked them, glad they are gone. I never found the lightness of a DualShock2 sans vibrators to be undesireable.

Re:Since when? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597258)

The Saturn pad was incredibly light too! It really helped that console do well.

Re:Since when? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597636)

If you are actually using the Wii-like 'waving the controller around' approach in games then user-fatigue becomes a problem with heavy controllers.

same ol same ol (2, Funny)

Thansal (999464) | more than 7 years ago | (#16596814)

nothing to see here, move along.

Same reasons stated every time some one brings up why thy didn't include both "well, uhh, we can't! umm, money, and weight, umm, yah"

I still like the 150-200 MILLION units being made. because each PS3 realy needs 150-200 controllers.

Chatter? (5, Insightful)

copponex (13876) | more than 7 years ago | (#16596816)

When widespread customer outcry is "chatter," you're losing sight of what your role is as a company. Has anyone reminded Sony that the source of this "chatter" is also where they get their income?

Re:Chatter? (1)

Speare (84249) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597492)

I've said before that when a company or country gets to the 1.0e7 or 1.0e8 scale, the whole idea of "vote with your dollars" or even plain democracy just simply breaks down. Any negative news is chatter, compared to the background 95-99% of complacent sheeple.

Re:Chatter? (1)

poot_rootbeer (188613) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598054)

When widespread customer outcry is "chatter," you're losing sight of what your role is as a company.

What "widespread customer outcry"? Doesn't the console need to, y'know, be RELEASED before there can be any "widespread customer outcry"?

A lot of the people who write about the PS3 on the Internet consider the lack of rumble to me a big minus, this is true. But a lot of the people who wrote about the movie "Snakes on a Plane" prior to its release were really positive, and that didn't seem to matter much.

We are not Representative, and should not be considered as such.

Has anyone reminded Sony that the source of this "chatter" is also where they get their income?

Sony shipped what, 100 million PS2s last time around? How many influential gaming magazines and weblogs do you think there are, worldwide, total? Maybe 100?

The people complaining about rumble-less-ness are literally one in a million. Remember that.

That wasnt defending (1)

tont0r (868535) | more than 7 years ago | (#16596832)

What he did was common amongst magicians, which is to divert your attention away from the real trick, which was 'we cant get this motion sensing to work with the rumble feature'.

Its kind of like buying a new fancy lexus with all the bells and whistles and that they took out power stearing. Has all the other fancy things to show off to your friend, but just not power stearing.

Re:That wasnt defending (1)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597270)

Im not positive, but I thought the rumble feature was taken out because of licensing issues (which Nintendo and Microsoft dealt with, but not Sony).
Could be wrong though.

Re:That wasnt defending (1)

PygmySurfer (442860) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597876)

That's probably why, but I don't think Sony has ever admitted that.

Holy crap (4, Insightful)

steveo777 (183629) | more than 7 years ago | (#16596864)

So, they're making 150 million to 200 million controllers for 800 thousand PS3's that may or may not be out on Nov 19? Lessee here. I don't know about anyone else, but I simply won't be needing 1500-2000 controllers for the PS3 that I would theorehtically purchase.

Oh, and Microsoft and Nintendo have rumble and great battery life. I'm not worried. What I might be compelled to worry about is randomly exploding controllers, but maybe that's why they expect everyone to have so many spares. Does make multiplayer seem a lot more interesting, though.

Re:Holy crap (1)

Mursk (928595) | more than 7 years ago | (#16596992)

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's been less than gentle with my controller after getting frustrated with a game. I'm currently on my third (which works out to about 1 every two years). Maybe they anticipate playing a PS3 will be really, really frustrating.

Re:Holy crap (1)

AikonMGB (1013995) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597100)

At 800,000 PS3 units, 150-200 million controllers comes out to 187.5-250 controllers per unit.. maths is fun!

Aikon-

Re:Holy crap (-1, Flamebait)

mgabrys_sf (951552) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597434)

re:"Oh, and Microsoft and Nintendo have rumble and great battery life. I'm not worried."

Good for you! You should go to the Wii threads and talk about that there instead of trolling here perhaps?

Oh FUCK - I accused a fucking fanboy of trolling - there goes my modpoints to flamebait. Holy FUCK.

Re:Holy crap (1)

Fozzyuw (950608) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597624)

re:"Oh, and Microsoft and Nintendo have rumble and great battery life. I'm not worried."
Good for you! You should go to the Wii threads and talk about that there instead of trolling here perhaps?

Oh FUCK - I accused a fucking fanboy of trolling - there goes my modpoints to flamebait. Holy FUCK.

I'll give you credit for one thing, not posting anonymously, other than that, your Sony fan selectiveness forgot to point out, he mentioned BOTH competitors, not only Nintendo. Are Sony fans really that scared about Nintendo?

Cheers,
Fozzy

Re:Holy crap (1)

mgabrys_sf (951552) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597946)

For a real time waster might I suggest picking which-ever operating system you don't use (Mac / windows) and start trolling those threads? That's also a fine use of time. Enjoy!

Re:Holy crap (3, Funny)

Tokerat (150341) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597630)

So, they're making 150 million to 200 million controllers for 800 thousand PS3's that may or may not be out on Nov 19? Lessee here.

...because, you know, after Nov. 19th, all units will have been sold, and they'll never need to make a PS3 ever again.

Re:Holy crap (1)

steveo777 (183629) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598352)

Must have forgot to end the sarcasm (and bad math) tags after my first paragraph. I figured it was implied, but I see that you needed the joke explained. See, I know that there will be more than the initial shipments will be followed by more shipments. And if the PS3 sells like PS2's they will likely have to make even more than 200 million seeing as you don't need an adaptor for more than two controllers. The funny part was when I pretended I didn't know that. Don't worry, you'll understand humor one of these days if you just try to lighten up.

Re:Holy crap (1)

Tokerat (150341) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598630)

Sorry, I'm used to this being the Internet, where people really don't know things. Hadn't you noticed?

Re:Holy crap (1)

Danse (1026) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598648)

Must have forgot to end the sarcasm (and bad math) tags after my first paragraph. I figured it was implied, but I see that you needed the joke explained. See, I know that there will be more than the initial shipments will be followed by more shipments. And if the PS3 sells like PS2's they will likely have to make even more than 200 million seeing as you don't need an adaptor for more than two controllers. The funny part was when I pretended I didn't know that. Don't worry, you'll understand humor one of these days if you just try to lighten up.


More people might get the joke if it were actually funny. Then you probably won't even need the sarcasm tags.

Re:Holy crap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16598508)

What I might be compelled to worry about is randomly exploding controllers....Does make multiplayer seem a lot more interesting, though.

Now out, exclusively for PS3: Russian Roulette. More realistic than ever before!

Rumble not that important (3, Insightful)

lunch_box4 (940873) | more than 7 years ago | (#16596906)

I've never really found the rumble feature to be that important. My Wavebird controller for the Gamecube doesn't have rumble and I've found it to be much more fun to use than the standard wired controllers.

Re:Rumble not that important (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597364)

The difference being that Nintendo was very up front about why they didn't include rumble capabilities in the Wavebird. They stated right away that they didn't want to sacrifice battery life for the rumble feature. Moreimportantly, though, is that the rumble feature IS available with the wired controller. Nintendo gave you a choice-- Wires and rumble, or wireless and no rumble. Sony is giving you no choice.

Re:Rumble not that important (1)

Reapman (740286) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597534)

Sony is upfront. It's not out, and they told you no rumble. So there goes that point. Their reasoning? They dont want to be strongarmed by a patent that is stupid to begin with. My question is... and I'm assuming the answer is yes: Is Nintendo making a wireless REGULAR controller with rumble? I haven't heard and just thought to ask that now. I'm assuming they're coming out with a Wavebird Mark II or somethin?

Re:Rumble not that important (1)

dolson (634094) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598006)

Well, since you haven't heard, Nintendo is ready to launch their Wii console. The controller for the Wii has full motion sensing capabilities, allows you to swing it like a baseball bat, translating directly on the screen, your movements. It is shaped like a remote control, has a speaker built in, as well as a small amount of memory for player profiles. Oh, and it has rumble features. So in a way, yes. But normal controller? No.

Re:Rumble not that important (1)

exley (221867) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597432)

Personally, I can't stand rumble. In a game that utilizes it, the first thing I do is shut it off. I find myself wondering if people really care that much about rumble, or if they're just looking for every excuse they can find to bash Sony so they make a bigger deal out of it than they normally would. Like with most things, it's probably a bit of both.

Re:Rumble not that important (1)

Prophet of Nixon (842081) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597512)

I turn it off immediately because it actually makes the backs of my hands hurt pretty badly. I've had more pleasant puncture wounds. Not that I'm likely to get a PS3, but good riddance to it anyway.

Re:Rumble not that important (1)

I'm Don Giovanni (598558) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598754)

Lack of rumble is going to really harm the experience of games like Motostorm. You can play "sour grapes" all you want (bah!! the grapes are sour anyway!!), but lack of rumble sucks bad.

Re:Rumble not that important (1)

deadstatue (1004528) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597568)

love the wave bird my self,but certain games wouldnt be the same,where vibration queue is just as important as visuals.some games its almost a necessity.MGS series,resident evil, games where "feeling" an enemy approach is easier than seeing them.

But the most important question is: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597004)

What will happen to the Rumble Roses? Will their scantily clad wrasslin' continue? Will their rumbling be lost along with the controller's rumbling? The people need to know!

batteries (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597122)

Since their batteries are non-replaceable my guess is with rumble, you piss through batteries a lot more, need to recharge more, your joystick becomes paperweight a lot sooner and Sony has to replace it with a brand new battery/joystick a lot quicker = they loose a lot more money.

Your general consumers will probably feel something missing and be a little upset, I also agree though, giving me poor motion control over rumble = a bad move. Personally I can't stand people who turn the joystick all over the place when playing games :)

Re:batteries (1)

Dev59 (953144) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598680)

Yeah, it's not the Wii... but do you know that the motion control will be poor? The implementation actually sounded really cool with games like Lair. While I would have liked to have rumble in the PS3 controller, it was only the very rare game that ever made proper use of it. The description earlier about PG3 was dead on when it comes to good rumble - but that kind of implementation is pretty rare.

Light? (1)

sanosuke001 (640243) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597162)

I can't stand light controllers. I don't like anything that doesn't have some weight to it; makes it feel cheap and not really there. I want something that will hold my hands down so when I use it, I don't feel like I am just pushing air.

Yeah, mark my words! (2, Funny)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597218)

So it has to be done at a price, and it has to be done at a volume that fits our production requirements.
Yeah, exactly the strategy they used with the PS3....oh...wait.

Rumble is a gimmick (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597220)

The rumble feature in game controllers is a gimmick and always has been a gimmick. It is useless and a waste of battery life. Thank goodness it's being tossed out of most next-gen controller designs.

Re:Rumble is a gimmick (2, Informative)

TheBlackSwordsman (870838) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597352)

"The rumble feature in game controllers is a gimmick and always has been a gimmick. It is useless and a waste of battery life. Thank goodness it's being tossed out of most next-gen controller designs."


If by "most next-gen controller designs", you mean "Sony's next-gen controller design", then I guess you're correct. However, both Microsoft and Nintendo are still doing rumble and wireless. Nintendo's even doing the whole "tilt" thing that Sony slapped into their controller at the last minute. So tell me again why Sony's leaving rumble out?

Re:Rumble is a gimmick (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597504)

Most? The Xbox 360 still has it, as does the Wii. 1/3 is hardly 'most'.

Re:Rumble is a gimmick (1)

AdamThor (995520) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597638)

Rumble is totally a gimmik, I agree. But it is a gimmik that I have become accustomed to and have come to expect.

Re:Rumble is a gimmick (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597640)

I assume you never played 'Rez' for the Dreamcast or PS2. A game where the vibration actually ties into game play - you could even buy a vibrator for the game in Japan.

I think it can be more than a gimmick and can enhance the gaming experience.

Re:Rumble is a gimmick (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597794)

You are entitled to your opinion, but I've found it to be a nice feature in games that use it well. Back in the N64 days I too thought it was nothing more than a gimmick that didn't add anything to the game, but after using it for a while I found I would miss it when my rumble packbatteries died. This was especially true in mulitplayer sessions of Goldeneye. My batteries would die and I would suddenly notice that I was reacting to getting shot less quickly. That's when I realized I was actually unconciously relying on the the rumble to tell me when I was taking damage as much as the visual clues on screen.

People take it for granted these days because the rumble motors draw power from the console or from the controllers batteries. So you can't have a situation like the N64 rumble packs where the rumble dies but the controller continues to work. Or in your case with the Wavebird where the controller never had rumble to begin with. But trust me, and I'm sure this is true for many people (thus the complaints), when used correctly its sudden loss is very noticeable.

Re:Rumble is a gimmick (1)

EmperorKagato (689705) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597806)

Yeah, right. [slashdot.org]

Re:Rumble is a gimmick (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598280)

I do agree that it's a gimmick. I used to roll my eyes when people would shove a "rumble pack" into their N64 controllers. That said, it could actually serve as some surprisingly effective tactile feedback in the Wiimote, we'll see, but maybe rumble has finally found its purpose. Unfortunately, the rumble in the Wiimote is extremely basic. Now, 50 years from now, when all controllers have high velocity gyros and can mimick the feel of actually making contact with an object, then we'll talk.

Lack of Rumble is not a feature (2, Insightful)

jchenx (267053) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598914)

Once again, we have someone who doesn't like feature X and is glad that it's not in system Y, making it seem like its a "good thing" that the company decided to do it that way.

That's a load of BS.

Reading through the comments, it's obvious that there are many people that like it, and many people that don't. And you know what? They all know how to turn it off in the settings. Simple enough.

Now you can argue that it should be off by default, but most folks LIKE the feature. So the majority overrule your personal preference. It would be nice to have a personal setting that you could make on the console that remembers to turn off rumble across all games though. But to say that not having the option is a "good thing"? That's just stupid.

Re:Rumble is a gimmick (2, Interesting)

RealErmine (621439) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598956)

On many games I will agree that the rumble feature is a tacked-on gimmick. Usually, it is a used to physically "punish" the player for receiving damage. However, one well-reviewed game that used rumble effectively as an integral gameplay feature was Rockstar's Table Tennis. There are no visual or audio cues to tell when you are aiming your shot out of bounds. It is done completely with the intensity of the rumble in the gamepad. This is an extremely intuitive use of the rumble feature that allows a minimal UI, reduces screen clutter and eliminates audio cues that don't belong in a simulation game. Certainly this is one game that cannot be ported to the PS3 directly without sacrificing an excellent design decision or requiring a third party controller with cludged-together rumble support.

After putting thought into it, doesn't it seem strange that many of us want a feature that is usually used to simulate pain? At least some developers have given some thought to using rumble in new ways.

An odd area to cut costs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597244)

Given how expensive the PS3 is, it seems unusual to cite cost cutting for the controller. Especially since this could have a big influence on backward compatibility. Games like Breath of Fire 4 and Dark Cloud both use vibration as a critical element for a fishing side game. Without it, these games would lose a lot.

Rumble is over-rated (1)

Warlock7 (531656) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597266)

Come on. What does it really add? A slight buzzing in your hands when an explosion takes place that blows you away through the 7.1 sound system and the superb graphics through a 60" DLP 1080p screen isn't all that important. In the grand scheme of things it takes away from the rest of the modern experience with it's toy like effect. It's such a minor issue.

Re:Rumble is over-rated (1)

Lehk228 (705449) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597474)

multiplayer games like SSBM benefit from rumble, it lets you know that you are taking hits even if you didn't notice it on screen

Re:Rumble is over-rated (1)

Elshar (232380) | more than 7 years ago | (#16599020)

Don't most games have visual cues to that effect? I always turn the rumble crap off in all my games. It's more annoying than actually helpful imo.

Weight and design philosophy (3, Interesting)

7Prime (871679) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597284)

"'And, it's incredibly light! Just pick it up!'"

This is exactly what I'm concerned about, there is such a thing as having a controller that's "too light". After a point, it just feels flimsy and cheap, and becomes a constant reminder that it's a toy. The Dualshock controllers were quite good, just the right amount of weight, any lighter, and it begin to feel cheap. I do use Wavebird GCN controllers, but those are a little larger, giving them a bit more weight than the SIXAXIS will probably have, and I still wish (for all their greatness) they had a little more heft to them.

The PS3 is a $600 console, it's being marketted as a media entertainment center, and as something slightly more sophisticated than JUST a game console (supposedly), having a really light-weight controller is sort of going against their overarching image.

Which brings me to another point. What is Sony's overarching philosophy for this console? They don't seem to have a very unified idea in mind: art-deco looking console, utilitarian interface, lightweight controllers with motion sensors, with an Xtreme Gen Y sounding name... all these things really don't fit together to create a unified whole. If it has no unique feel in mind, then why should I buy it over the other guys' consoles? Nintendo spent YEARS developing a finely crafted gestalt that followed their unique philosophy on gaming, so much that the Wii almost has a living, breathing, personality. Microsoft a bit less so, but they've at least met the status quo in terms of having a unified feel (it's just not that original). But the PS3 just seems schizophrenic, it has no gestalit. It's as if each piece was designed completely independantly and the thing was just thrown together. Seriously, why should I get excited about something that was built with such an unprofessional looking attitude in design philosophy? While Joe Public may not be analyzing it like this, it comes across, subliminaly, as being unsure of itself and unable to deliver a really solid feel that will win people over.

Lolz (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597296)

Is there seriously anyone out there that's going to miss the rumble pack?

I mean really?

Like

Whatever.

Not that I'm buying the maddenstation 3 anyways.

How I think of Sony (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597300)

Sony's marketing strategy for the PS3 is like a man trying to throw a frisbee upside down.
They keep trying and trying, adding more and more 'spin' to it each time, but they still can't figure out why it won't fly.

-dotHectate
(forgot password, not at home, oh well)

Seems like death throes to me. (1)

anlprb (130123) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597314)

Hmm, Companies when they are doing well usually are the object of praise by the media, customers, etc... Seems Sony is doing a lot of defending these days.

Translation (1)

Akaihiryuu (786040) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597338)

Translation: "We were just going to give you the same old Dual Shock 2, but we have to copy Nintendo! However, we couldn't find a way to add tilt sensors to the Dual Shock 2 without removing the rumble." The controller is still very similar to the controller that shipped with the original Playstation when it first launched almost 12 years ago. They probably 1) couldn't find a way to stuff both of them into the same old controller case, or 2) it would've cost too much to do so, and they're already losing money on the system as it is.

Re:Translation (1)

Dev59 (953144) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598934)

They HAD a brand new controller design. I don't know if anyone (outside of Sony) even ever got to hold it in their hands, but they got so many comments and complaints about it at trade shows that they went back to the DualShock design.

It didn't look that great, but I would have liked a chance to hold it before making up my mind.

Tactile feedback (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597402)

There is no valid excuse for not including rumble.
Motion sensor and rumble don't have to be used at the same time (assuming that'd be an issue)...
When correctly used, rumble adds a ton of immersion.
It adds tactile feedback to the gaming experience, complementing audio and video.

I just can't imagine a game like PGR3 without rumble - you literally "feel" it when the car is losing grip. And in cockpit mode, you "feel" when the tires are hitting the curb (and you know you're achieving the best line).

In FPS is gives a very natural way to give instant damage feedback without having to clutter the screen with color markers, etc (like in FarCry).
It's also very immersive to be able to feel the vibration of the weapon as you shoot - the rumble associated with a heavy machine gun is just awesome (like in GRAW).
In Halo, once you charged up the plasma pistol, you could feel its power waiting to be released.

Splinter Cell has those fun lock picking minigames, all based on rumble.

In HalfLife2, the game took me by surprise when I felt the subtle vibrations of an incoming train, even before I could hear it.

Sure you can make games without all this. You could also forget go back to stereo instead of DB5.1 or go back to 256 color palettes.

Re:Tactile feedback (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597508)

bullshit. force feedback offers some important factors when implemented in an arcade style setup, in the home it offers nothing.

Re:Tactile feedback (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16597626)

Little guy fights the evil patent companies, we cheer. Big guy fights the evil patent companies, we jeer?

Sony thinks they're cute: (1)

mmeloche (1018710) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597456)

Anyone else notice Sony's little joke there? The SIXAXIS? Palindrome much?

Re:Sony thinks they're cute: (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597872)

no offense dude... but you just NOW noticed that?

Re:Sony thinks they're cute: (1)

mmeloche (1018710) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597942)

Not really. It was somebody complaining that it only had the three axii that made me feel like talking about it. Okay, YES, I just noticed it now. :P

Re:Sony thinks they're cute: (1)

nutshell42 (557890) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598318)

axii

Axes. These pseudo-Latin plurals are really getting on my nerves (at least "axii" isn't quite as bad as "virii" where people, invent not one but two "i")

NATURE'S HARMONIC SIMULTANEOUS 6-DAY SIXAXIS (1)

Maul (83993) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597520)

If ignorant of the almighty
Sixaxis Creation Power,
then you are android dumb,
educated singularity stupid
and unworthy of existence -
with your death as positive.
Killing you is not immoral -
only unlawful by WiiMen.

Re:NATURE'S HARMONIC SIMULTANEOUS 6-DAY SIXAXIS (1)

hellergood (968199) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598348)

+1 Time Cube

This will cause loss of market share (1)

xclr8r (658786) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597632)

Females in particular ;)

Has everything to do with litigation (1)

Dolly_Llama (267016) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597914)

This is backwards justification on techinical terms for a decision that was made because of the IP dispute between Sony and Immersion. I say dispute, but really Sony's getting their ass handed to them in the courts by Immersion. Immersion has already won a ~80M dollar decision based upon IP of the vibration feedback and an injunction against the infringing controllers, but Sony has since gone to the scorched earth strategy in endless appeals.

fwiw, Microsoft also infringed in the XBox controller, but chose to settle early.

Defend, but successfully? (4, Interesting)

MeanderingMind (884641) | more than 7 years ago | (#16597926)

[quote]"'I think the caveat to that statement always has to be based on the fact that when we make a pad, we're making maybe 150, 200 million of them,' Harrison explains. 'So it has to be done at a price, and it has to be done at a volume that fits our production requirements. I think the decision that we've made to build in the SIXAXIS functionality, and Bluetooth wireless, and great battery life, and all the other functionality that comes with it, far outweighs the chatter that we're getting on vibration. And, it's incredibly light! Just pick it up!'"[/quote]

When Sony was first asked why rumble was missing, they told us it was technically impossible/too difficult to do with the new tilt sensing. That wasn't infeasible, but highly disappointing. Then the lid was blown off of that.

Now Sony has changed their tune. It's a matter of price. The cost of $.01 over 150 million controllers is non-trivial. That seems feasible, why didn't you say that in the first place? Why does your controller cost $50 when you're saving us money? How is it that Nintendo's more advanced controller that features rumble, motion sensing, and even a speaker is $10 less than your controller until you start buy an addon which also features motion sensing? (Microsoft, you've got some explaining to do too)

The waffling about this doesn't alleviate the suspicion that Sony remove the rumble because of the lawsuit against them. We're not convinced you're trying to save us money when you're charging $500 to $600 for your system, in excess of $60 for games, and $50 for controllers. The original suspicion, that you're too arrogant and sour to suck it up and pay someone else for their proprietary technology, sadly fits the facts far better than anything you've told us yet. Given that the settlement for the lawsuit was around $100 million for years worth of controllers and games it doesn't strike me that the cost of working with Immersion is really so terrible a thing.

This isn't a defense, it's an excuse. I've never gotten the impression from any Sony representative that they are actually sad to see rumble go. The words of Sony aren't the sad, but necessary statements that game and hardware designers make as reality defeats cool concepts and ideas. They are distractions and red herrings from a ugliness Sony had hoped we wouldn't see.

Honesty will get you a lot farther than lies "chatter"ing through your teeth.

Re:Defend, but successfully? (1)

Dev59 (953144) | more than 7 years ago | (#16599032)

The prices are a simple trend to track and it all starts with Microsoft. Sony and Microsoft (not so much Nintendo with the accelerometers in their controllers) are going to be making a KILLING off of accessories in this generation. Well, they already are in Microsoft's case. They essentially just added $10 in price to every accessory that was already out there simply because it was for the 360. And with how much money Sony is losing on each console despite the $500-600 price do you really expect them to do any different when MS has already laid the groundwork for them?

Give us functions we don't need instead of rumble. (1)

kinglink (195330) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598008)

Blue tooth? Sixaxis? Battery life? all buzzwords (well the last is good but everyone now has great battery life). The only reason they added Sixaxis is because of the lack of rumble. Blue tooth isn't needed or isn't crucial because the 360 has great connection system. Battery life is good but if you have a rechargable who really cares if you get 3 days or 6 days? Just replug it in at the end of the sessions.

Sony is trying to hype again. They claim they didn't take down Lik-sang, now they are trying to tell us their bastardized controller is better? Really they are giving us a 360 version of the Wii controller, No one asked for it, and no one really needs it but they'll create a need and then fill it.

Reading early reports on their controller I must admit I feel sorry for them, they were so far ahead last generation and I feel no need to even get a PS3 this generation.

Re:Give us functions we don't need instead of rumb (1)

Dev59 (953144) | more than 7 years ago | (#16599118)

Read up more on the Lik Sang situation. Sony may have been bastards with the lawsuits but it's pretty obvious that Lik Sang either already had problems and are using this as an excuse to close shop or they're doing this so they can reappear under a new name a few months later and evade the law.

Oh, and publishing confidential information? I don't care how wronged they feel, they just killed any consumer sympathy I could have felt for them with that one.

not a big deal for me (2, Insightful)

rayde (738949) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598184)

I've personally been using the wireless logitech controller for PS2 for some time now, and i basically never use the rumble feature as it is. I keep it turned off, and my battery life is phenomenal. however, i don't agree that Sony should have completely removed the feature. i won't be surprised to see later versions of the controller offer rumble as an option, and games will be able to support it if they wish.

with enough customer grumbling, sony will eventually get rumbling.

(wow that was horrible :-P)

Rumble Good, Sony Bad (1)

AlGrinch (1018644) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598420)

I like a rumble gamepad. I think it enhances the game. I generally play computer games but recently spent some time playing Halo 2 on Xbox. I really noticed the rumble effect enhanced the game play. For instance when there is a large explosion on the ship, you feel it through the controller.

I was using a controller with a clear case and could see that the rumble feature is a small motor with a off centre weight on the end of the shaft, very simple, very cheap and likely easy on batteries.

The statement from Sony sounds very defensive. As in they know it sucks ass that rumble is not included.

Easy Example: PCs and CounterStrike (2, Insightful)

EXTomar (78739) | more than 7 years ago | (#16598662)

People complain about the loss of rumble but I've always seen it as a gimmick that was only effectively pulled off in a few games. The rest of it was just a toy not necessarily to the actually game or, even more importantly, the game mechanics. How do I know this? Because most games on the PC never bothered with it.

Take a look at gaming on the PC side and it is devoid of rumble and trust me when I say Logitech and Microsoft would like nothing better than to sell you something that "rumbles" especially a gamer thinks they need but it never took off. I don't think World of Warcraft needs rumble and if CounterStrike players don't notice it and The Sims can't use it effectively, just how "important" is rumble? These are some of the most played, highest selling games in the history of gaming running rings around some of the best console titles and yet none of them are eager to have rumble. I guess the PC side of gaming has been missing out on...something.

So what are these games that really need rumble? The only reason to keep rumble in would have been "it is cheap". With Immersion, there is really no surprise it is gone.
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