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Microsoft Partners With Zend

kdawson posted more than 7 years ago | from the hell-freezes-over-film-at-11 dept.

223

jesse.castro writes to point out news of Microsoft striking a multi-year partnership with PHP provider Zend to improve PHP's performance on Windows-based Web servers. From the article: "Rather than marking a sudden change of course, Microsoft is openly engaging in a dialogue with Zend, a key open source promoter, and millions of PHP developers, analysts said."

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Just more shit on the pile (0, Troll)

Anonymous Crowhead (577505) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664313)

Ugh.

Re:Just more shit on the pile (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16664927)

Fucking Microsoft working together with fucking Jews. Great. Just great.

Hooray for Microsoft Zend 2007, Ultimate Edition! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16664315)

Pulling Zend off my Apache box now. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish isn't going to get me this time.

-evilghost

Re:Hooray for Microsoft Zend 2007, Ultimate Editio (1)

mrsbrisby (60242) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664933)

Seriously. Every time Microsoft partners with someone it means they're doomed. Remember when Microsoft "partnered" with any of these guys?

* Netscape [albion.com]
* Palm [redmondmag.com]
* Symantec and McAfee [physorg.com]
* Sendo [theregister.co.uk]

Re:Hooray for Microsoft Zend 2007, Ultimate Editio (2, Informative)

LVWolfman (301977) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665409)

Here's another more fitting example... Remember the Sybase partnership? Wasn't too many years before MS released MS SQL which "just happens" to be totally Sybase compatible and then didn't need Sybase. How about Foxpro?

I remember reading some interviews with companies whose technology had been "innovated" by Microsoft. One guy said (paraphrased), "It's a catch-22. If you partner with them, they get cheap access to your technology and take it from you. If you don't partner with them, they'll go to your competition and that might be the one time that the partnership works for the competition."

Seriously. Every time Microsoft partners with someone it means they're doomed. Remember when Microsoft "partnered" with any of these guys?

* Netscape
* Palm
* Symantec and McAfee
* Sendo

forst pist (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16664329)

forst pist

Re:forst pist (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16664683)

thord pist gynius

Seems that (0, Flamebait)

hairypalmer (1020801) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664331)

Jani was right, Zend are part of the zionist conspiracy.

On a more serious note, nothing good will come of this!

Re:Seems that (1)

gmack (197796) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664981)

Plenty good will come of this. With an improved PHP it's now easier for ASP shops to migrate to PHP. It's now possible for a slow migration instead of having to change everything over at once. I've had several potential clients come to me with exactly this problem "we want to move to PHP but we don't want to run 2 servers".

The funny thing is that even with the current speed penalty PHP has become the second most popular web programming language on windows servers.

It's a trap ? (2, Interesting)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664337)

One would think MS has enough languages of their own. None of which I personally like.

Re:It's a trap ? (4, Insightful)

chroot_james (833654) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664375)

Don't be silly. They want to make sure that anything where Linux as an alternative is better becomes not better. They're done fighting everyone and are embracing the democratization of innovation and personal preference. The uses of PHP or ASP don't have to be rational for them to make money selling windows server that run both...

Re:It's a trap ? (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664777)

I personally have to say that I love VB.Net and C#. They are great languages. Now, IIS I have some issues with, but I find it a joy to work in Visual Studio with C# and VB.Net. Certainly better than working in PHP, with any IDE i've tried. I haven't tried Zen yet though. I've been searching for a good IDE. Does anybody have suggestions for a good PHP IDE? I'm currently using Quanta.

Re:It's a trap ? (2, Informative)

gmack (197796) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665037)

You mean like Zend studio? [zend.com]

Re:It's a trap ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16665075)

Zend Studio is a very nice IDE to use with PHP. It's supported on multiple platforms, can run with remote servers and (for IE under Windows at least) has a nifty toolbar you can add for when you need to quickly switch on and off (if, say, you need to make a few clicks/page loads before you get to the part in your application that you actually need to debug). It's got all the usual stuff you'd expect in an IDE and works pretty well. I believe it's still a Java application though (the client side that is) so you won't want to run the client on a wimpy machine, though my 1GHz Athlon w/ 512MB RAM runs it just fine. It's not all that expensive either, all things considered.

Re:It's a trap ? (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665177)

I'm looking for something with good code completion and debugging. Do you know how well those features are compared to the equivalent features in Visual Studio?

Re:It's a trap ? (0, Troll)

Alternate Interior (725192) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665657)

There's a product called VS PHP [wikipedia.org] . I've never tried it, but since it claims to plug into VS, I'd assume it allows anything VS does. But I don't know that for a fact.

Re:It's a trap ? (2, Informative)

Shawn is an Asshole (845769) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665139)

There is an excellent IDE for PHP. It's called PHP Eclipse [phpeclipse.de] , which is a plug in for Eclipse [eclipse.org] .

Re:It's a trap ? (2, Informative)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665329)

A few people have mentioned Zend Studio, but I find it sluggish. My vote goes to ActiveState's Komodo.

Re:It's a trap ? (1)

AVryhof (142320) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665865)

On windows, I use dev-php... on Linux, I use Kate.

Re:It's a trap ? (1)

bryxal (933863) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665883)

As a PHP only developer for a few years now I was with all the Free IDE and then the ZEND proffesional but the Best one and the one i am currently on is NuSphere PhpEd. the cost is high but the debug and the profilign and the IDE for all languages(CSS, JS etc) well integrated is beyond any other one. Also the Zend one runs very slowly. while NuSphere is incredibly Faster

Re:It's a trap ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16664881)

One would think MS has enough languages of their own.

Not at all, now they have introduced another innovative language: php#

Embrace, extend, extinguish!

YAY (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16664341)

And the crowd rejoices!

No problem. Yet. (-1, Troll)

Weaselmancer (533834) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664353)

Embrace and extend. This is phase one, "Embrace".

Just wait for phase two.

Re:No problem. Yet. (2, Insightful)

Jaegar (518423) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664433)

You left out their favorite phase. Extinguish.

Re:No problem. Yet. (1)

softcoder (252233) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664461)

How long do you give ZEND/PHP before they find out their IP is no longer theirs?

Re:No problem. Yet. (2, Funny)

Not The Real Me (538784) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664931)

Microsoft will be coming up with a brand new language for IIS and web developers, it will be called PHP# Dot Net. PHP# Dot Net will be bundled in the next Visual Studio upgrade. It's part of Microsoft's strategy to innovate.

Re:No problem. Yet. (1)

Alternate Interior (725192) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665585)

I would love to see PHP.net (or PHP# .net). A standardized framework and huge code library would beat the hell out of the billion frameworks and Pear that we have today.

Re:No problem. Yet. (1)

Gospodin (547743) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665673)

Well.... here [php.net] .

That was easy. :)

Re:No problem. Yet. (1)

scuba0 (950343) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665731)

I would too like to see that. But then I remembered that you said standard and a microsoft product in the same sentence... Because you don't expect mirosoft to just cut and past do you?, of course they will make a new better product.

Re:No problem. Yet. (1)

Alternate Interior (725192) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665853)

I'm talking about ASP.net being Microsoft's standard PHP framework. .net is a library/framework, not a language.

Platform: Windows
Language: C#/PHP/VB
Library: .net
Framework: .net

LAM-P (1)

Nafai7 (53671) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664383)

Microsoft started by trying to be best buds with Firefox (web client). Now they seem to be looking at the server side. They are going after the P! Is M (MySQL) next?

Re:LAM-P (1)

chroot_james (833654) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664565)

If they were smart, yes! They need to compete with the new super mega giant Linux rival (Oracle).

I've been doing "WAMP" for years... (1)

xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664691)

My "personal" websites are hosted on Linux, but I dev them on a Windows XP platform running Apache, MySQL and PHP. In my real job, I use mostly use "WIM." (Windows, IIS, MySQL and .NET web development)

I like PHP for my toy applications, but I can see where something Zend would be needed if you wanted to something serious with PHP. (Same reason I'd only use "modperl" if I ever wrote another perl-based web app.)

Re:LAM-P (1)

Ant P. (974313) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664793)

LAMP works fine with Perl. Or even Python.

That reminds me, I've needed an excuse to learn one of those for a while now...

Re:LAM-P (1)

El_Muerte_TDS (592157) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665557)

Or simply: Linux Apache Middleware (PHP, Perl, Python, Ruby, ...) PostgreSQL

beware...the zend of the world is neigh (1)

JCOTTON (775912) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664393)

Oh, forget it. mod down.

Why are people freaking out? (2, Interesting)

moore.dustin (942289) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664465)

This is good news as far as I am concerned. Additional support from a major provider of server OS's to a widely used OPEN SOURCE language can and will help. It is not like PHP is only thing out there now and its flaws are more apparent now with the whole web 2.0 and its corresponding languages. Maybe some support and extra innovation will keep it viable and maintain its developers/users. I know I have been looking to other languages more and more as time goes by.

What does this mean for ASP though? Short answer is probably nothing I am guessing, but could this mean something down the road?

Re:Why are people freaking out? (1)

Lewrker (749844) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664599)

Microsoft trying to re-invent the web was never a good thing.

"ASP?" C'mon, this is 2006... (1)

xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664731)

"ASP?" C'mon, this is 2006...anyone doing pro web dev in Windows these days is using ASP.NET; it's a lot different than the old ASP/Perl/PHP scripting environments.

(So, you're probably right; if you're still using ASP, not much is going to stop you now.)

Re:Why are people freaking out? (1)

oohshiny (998054) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664821)

Maybe some support and extra innovation will keep it viable and maintain its developers/users.

If PHP developers wanted "innovation", PHP wouldn't have succeeded as much as it did. PHP has succeeded because it's for people to develop web applications with, and to do so with little more than a text editor. It also doesn't look to me like PHP needs more support (and what kind support would Microsoft offer anyway?).

This is simply what it looks like: Microsoft wants PHP to run better on Windows servers so that people who want to run popular PHP applications aren't forced to switch to Linux in order to get good performance. It's understandable, it's reasonable, and it's not particularly nefarious.

Maybe Microsoft will add a little more support to their development tools for PHP, or maybe not, but I doubt that will make a difference to anybody; people who develop with Microsoft tools probably aren't all that interested in PHP (yes, I know, I'm an insensitive clod because you, gentle reader, happen to be one of those people, but I suspect there aren't so many of you).

Re:Why are people freaking out? (1)

moore.dustin (942289) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665001)

Actually I am not one of those people as I only run Linux on servers I use. Windows had their chance with me and lost me a while back, though maybe this will allow me to at least consider a Windows based system. I do agree though, it is probably just agreement to make PHP play well wtih Windows. Nonetheless, there is nothing bad about that as far as I can see.

Re:Why are people freaking out? (1)

Fozzyuw (950608) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665477)

Hmm... so much PHP hatred. I'm a little surprised here. Although, I cannot disagree with people's claim on how PHP gets used to pump out complete slop by new-to-programming people, what would be the open-source choice if not PHP?

The only other thing I can think of is JSP, which I started working with once, but soon grew a bit frustrated with trying to get it to work on Windows in a "WAMP" environment. I also found that it was just confusing to organize, and this comes from a programmer who spent most of his time in Java in College. Or maybe, I've just grown soft with PHP. What's the recommended server-side langauge by SlashDot readers? I'm looking to start branching out to a new language soon.

Cheers,
Fozzy

Re:Why are people freaking out? (1)

jZnat (793348) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665875)

Most people seem to like either Ruby [ruby-lang.org] [on Rails [rubyonrails.org] ] or Python [python.org] (Django seems to be a good MVC framework, but there are more).

Re:Why are people freaking out? (1)

TheVelvetFlamebait (986083) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665615)

Why are people freaking out?
I'll give you two words and two miscellaneous characters: this is /.

This makes me happy. (4, Interesting)

KermodeBear (738243) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664483)

As a PHP developer this could be a great boon for me. With Microsoft actively getting involved with PHP, perhaps more companies will consider using it. More jobs opportunities for me - whee! Maybe I can get out of Buffalo...

That said, this confuses me a bit:

Technical improvements by Zend and Microsoft to make it easier to run PHP on Windows[...]
Since when was it difficult to run PHP on Windows? I have written code that runs on both Linux and Windows machines, and, like most scripting languages, "it just works". There are a few extensions (like process control) that don't work under Windows - but the need for those extensions is very small. For a vast majority of scripting you don't need to do anything differently under Linux than you do Windows. I wish the article would have gone more in depth about these alleged problems.

Re:This makes me happy. (1)

dave420 (699308) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664633)

It says in the article:

'"PHP has always worked on Windows. The problem is that it never performed very well," Andi Gutmans, Zend's co-founder and chief technology officer, said in an interview'

It seems MS is looking to improve performance, not to get it working in the first place. Any performance gains on any platform is great news for the language.

Re:This makes me happy. (2, Insightful)

MBCook (132727) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664657)

My gut is telling me that this is just to stop customer hemorrhaging. People say "We like PHP and that's what our code is in so we can't use Windows" or "... but Linux is faster" (just a guess). So MS is helping with PHP so people can either switch FROM Linux to Windows and easily keep/develop PHP, or just get better performance for their current code (if there is a very measurable performance hit from running Windows, they'd want that fixed).

Either way it's good, but that's my guess why they are doing this ("Just switch to ASP.Net, it's great" probably wasn't working well for most shops that already have $$$ invested in PHP code).

Alleged problems.. (1)

Savage-Rabbit (308260) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664719)

Since when was it difficult to run PHP on Windows? I have written code that runs on both Linux and Windows machines, and, like most scripting languages, "it just works". There are a few extensions (like process control) that don't work under Windows - but the need for those extensions is very small. For a vast majority of scripting you don't need to do anything differently under Linux than you do Windows. I wish the article would have gone more in depth about these alleged problems.

Take this with a grain of salt since I'm no sysadmin but from what my friends in that line of business who operate big Win2k and Win2k3 servers tell me, PHP and IIS & Co. don't get along all that well at high loads on Windows server systems or at least not as well as you would expect in an enterprise environment where zero downtime is a must. I suppose this is, at least partly, an effort to increase the reliability/stability of the PHP+IIS combination and not just about adding features for programmers. Security enhancements and integration with Vista Server may also be part of this effort.

Re:Alleged problems.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16664991)

"Windows servers", "high loads", "enterprise environment", "zero downtime"

Okay, if you say so. But all releative and a contradiction for Windows on little iron boxes.

PHP on Windows (1)

mgooderum (446711) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664775)

If you read the attached article they're really talking about the performance deficit of PHP on Windows. Running PHP on Windows you have two primary server options - IIS and Apache, and then the various integration strategies (plug-in, CGI, FastCGI). In the case of IIS plug-ins with ISAPI there's a number of fiddling bits (like the ISAPI extension versus filter stuff) and getting all the settings right and quirky bits (example - I've never been able to mix PHP4 and PHP5 on one server with ISAPI). The most common setup is FastCGI - traditional CGI on Windows is painful because Windows process creation overhead is a lot more expensive - but FastCGI imposes tradeoffs on resources and performance and numbers of servers, etc.

All in all as a frequent user of PHP I figure this will benefit most of us. I worry a little less about extend and coopt here because I think Microsoft's primary motivation is to get you to stay on Windows Server/IIS even for your PHP platforms and then continue to try to push .NET down your throat.

As for MySQL - it's now owned by Oracle and IMHO Larry Ellison has a far better shot at being the antichrist than Bill Gates. Yes we have all that GPLd code but the company, talent and non-GPL rights to the code are owned by Oracle.

Another aside is both cases are examples that successful technology attracts attention and money regardless of the ideology or goals that spawned it. As someone who's been plugging away in development almost 20 years now I'd say the "success" part is tied more to market success and less to technological superiority - MySQL and PHP both end up strong on both counts, but neither would have attracted a whit's bit of interest if their market penetration was 2%.

Re:PHP on Windows (2, Informative)

Mad Merlin (837387) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664887)

As for MySQL - it's now owned by Oracle and IMHO Larry Ellison has a far better shot at being the antichrist than Bill Gates. Yes we have all that GPLd code but the company, talent and non-GPL rights to the code are owned by Oracle.

Um... no. Oracle bought InnoDB and BDB (both separate projects from MySQL), two of the many backend formats that MySQL can use. It still has MyISAM and a few others, not to mention that Oracle hasn't bought MySQL itself or anything it owns.

Re:PHP on Windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16665341)

Let's be realistic here: MySQL is a piece of shit... InnoDB made it marginally less shit and provided some of the things a relational database relies on. BDB provides a fast ultra-light option. MyISAM is braindead.

Oracle grabbed MySQL by the nuts when it bought those.

Re:PHP on Windows (1)

mgooderum (446711) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665411)

Ooops, yeah, my bad, MM's correction is correct. But as AC notes, they have MySQL AB in a spot, especially now that they _also_ have bought SleepyCat/Berkeley DB.

Re:This makes me happy. (1)

GiorgioG (225675) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664871)

Hey - don't knock Buffalo - some of are happy with our new Jumping-Slug Sabres logo (http://www.sabres.com/ [sabres.com] ). Really though... You can make plenty of $ in Buffalo (and considering the cost of living here, you'd be a fool to go work in a high-demand area.) Just pick a more in-demand technology...

Re:This makes me happy. (1)

wizbit (122290) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664989)

some of are happy with our new Jumping-Slug Sabres logo

I always thought it looked like Barney Rubble's hair, or a furry version of the Chargers logo...

Re:This makes me happy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16664873)

Getting php to run smoothly on a windows server can be a bit challenging. We've had numerous issues with intermittent "PHP Access Violation" errors. (It doesn't help that our IT department is staffed by retards)

Re:This makes me happy. (1)

Noctrnl (110574) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664899)

My guess is it's probably to improve the performance. Yeah, you can do it now, but that doesn't mean it's to be done. Could also be implimenting the core of PHP into Windows or it's products without having to go "outside the box" to get the software and install it.

I've got kind of mixed feelings on this myself, but it certainly isn't a bad thing right now. We'll just have to see what road they go down.

Re:This makes me happy. (1)

allometry (840925) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664941)

The quote you have is out of context. They said it's easy to get running, but it doesn't perform very well.

There are improvements to PHP that can be made on Windows. Example, IIS integration.

I'm not saying that it's hard to do, but it's not with the whole "plug and play" mentality that Microsoft has.
Developers shouldn't have to be server administrators too.

Server administrators, often times not programmers, have no clue about PHP and how to get it running. The most
they know about it is that PHP programs end in .php.

Easy of installing PHP under IIS would be a good improvement. It would coincide with this whole "plug-and-play"
mentality Microsoft has and would also take the need off developers to admin servers.

Re:This makes me happy. (1)

ajs (35943) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664993)

This is probably aimed at improving the build environment for PHP on Windows, OS integration (deeper integration with .Net, etc). These things are important to Windows developers, though not as much to PHP developers who don't think in terms of what box the code runs on.

Re:This makes me happy. (1)

Xibby (232218) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665541)

Possibly integrating PHP into the Windows Scripting Host similar to Active Perl. That could be interesting as it would expose PHP to WMI and other resources made available via the Windows Scripting Host.

This makes me worry (1)

EtherAlchemist (789180) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665737)


Microsoft is notorious for not following set standards and instead doing what it think is right/better/best, causing the development community to work twice as hard to support it in some cases.

What worries me is that this will turn into some bastardization of PHP that is "tuned" for Windows and then requires hacks or work arounds to get things to work on other platforms.

What might actually be worse would be features that are only available in PHP running on Windows. *sigh*

Also, a little OT, I admit my first impression is that this is the first step in MS playing "me too" by including languages and frameworks other than their own in their operating system (as Linux and Mac do) to woo developers to the platform. e.g. "Look how easy it is to build web apps on Windows with PHP" etc.

So, if anyone from MS is reading, do good by the community and do good for yourselves by not fucking this up. Thanks.

Haskell vs PHP (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16664573)

Discuss.

Re:Haskell vs PHP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16665279)

Not worth it...

CmdrTaco vs Kevin Rose (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16665717)

Discuss.

This exact comment has already been posted. Try to be more original...

Re:Haskell vs PHP (1)

Senzei (791599) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665837)

I'm guessing this discussion will not be conducted until we approach the time when someone needs to refer to it.

After Visual Basic... (0, Troll)

PHAEDRU5 (213667) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664583)

php's a logical choice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PHP#Criticism [wikipedia.org]

yup, php is JUST LIKE visual basic (0, Flamebait)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664637)

poorly designed, not powerful, and encouraging bad coding practices.

Have to agree (1)

Ant P. (974313) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664939)

After using PHP for 4 years, I can say with some authority that it's complete shit. They're supposed to be fixing some of the most serious design flaws in PHP 6, but I don't think I'll still be using it by then.

Re:Have to agree (1)

Senzei (791599) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665903)

After using PHP for 4 years, I can say with some authority that it's complete shit. They're supposed to be fixing some of the most serious design flaws in PHP 6, but I don't think I'll still be using it by then.
They can fix stuff in PHP$X all they want, if they can't get hosting providers and the general population to migrate to it their fixes don't mean a whole lot.

Indeed it is (1)

Jesus_666 (702802) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665039)

It has lots of syntactic sugar and the ability to hack together a quick and dirty app in little time. Like VB is great for rapid prototyping and the creation of small utility apps where C++ would be overkill PHP is great for rapid prototyping and quick and/or temporary scripts.

PHP is no [insert your favourite script language here], but like VB it does have its place. It could use a major overhaul, but the concept makes sense. (Also, PHP makes for a somewhat useful generic preprocessor. Not the prettiest solution but it does work.)

Re:yup, php is JUST LIKE visual basic (1)

MasterC (70492) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665097)

poorly designed, not powerful, and encouraging bad coding practices.
Despite your sarcasm, I would actually have to agree to some degree.

PHP is a hodge-podge of functions that lack much consistency (compare in_array(needle, haystack) with, say, strpos(haystack, needle)) and when coding a real site with classes and such you still have to code within the confines of "we're escaping out of HTML into PHP mode" with the <? and ?> tags in *every* file. This promotes and encourages combining display with logic which many would argue is a bad coding practice.

Then there's the *many* "oh, that's a feature not a bug" like why there's a need for a late static binding [digitalsandwich.com] patch. I run into these somewhat often and have given up interaction with the developers because they're cranky and refuse to listen to constructive criticism.

As for performance: you can't "compile" them like you can in python to avoid the reparsing time which can be quite extensive if you get up into tens of thousands of lines of code which happens on *every* page load.

IMHO, "aliasing" is the worst thing to happen to PHP because you have to go *out of your way* to pass an object by reference instead of by copy and if you forget an ampresand in one of three places (function argument, function return, or assigment with =&) then PHP silently makes a copy of your object. And in some places it is *impossible* to pass by reference (e.g., the magic methods). Then aliasing has its other side-effects like in foreach loops.

Then there's the lack of a good, free profiler and debugger (granted I haven't looked in a while so please share if you know of some).

That said, I'm not railing against PHP (in fact, it currently pays my bills) but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its negatives and doesn't have areas where improvment is the only way things can go. I hope this parternship has at least some tricklebacks to non-Windows performance.

Re:yup, php is JUST LIKE visual basic (1)

nuzak (959558) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665465)

> IMHO, "aliasing" is the worst thing to happen to PHP because you have to go *out of your way* to pass an object by reference instead of by copy

The whole pass by value thing was what drove me away permanently from PHP years ago, but I thought PHP fixed that behavior in PHP5. Am I mistaken?

Re:After Visual Basic... (1)

dave420 (699308) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664971)

What language doesn't have criticism? :)

Re:After Visual Basic... (1)

Venik (915777) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665235)

Microsoft COBOL, naturally.

Worst Case Scenario? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16664627)

I think the biggest concern would be that there would start to be Windows-only features or performance benefits in PHP. If you think about it, Microsoft of course has their own interest in mind, namely selling more Windows Server licenses. If MS can claim that PHP runs better/faster on Windows than on a Linux server, they'll be able to sell more licenses. And would their agreement with Zend hamstring development of PHP on other platforms possibly?

Cue R.E.M (1)

geeksdave (799038) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664677)

"It's the "Z"end of the world as we know it".... I feel sick...

Re:Cue R.E.M (1)

Alzdran (950149) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664995)

Oh, come on. "It's Z-end of the world as we know it".

Makes sense (1)

Toreo asesino (951231) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664699)

php is a very popular language (even if, in my opinion, a badly structured one), thus by making Windows the most popular platform for it, you've suddenly got an increase in demand. Microsoft don't do anything for free, and this is no exception.

anything to get more users on IIS (1)

blindd0t (855876) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664757)

...and less users on Apache and other alternatives.

How long will Zend last? (1)

baomike (143457) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664783)

Gone in two years?
could they last three?

In other news... (4, Funny)

Karem Lore (649920) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664851)

Microsoft has just announced a new language said to potentially drive the future of the web...

drum roll

drum roll

PHP Sharp, or PHP# for short...

This is the hug of the bear (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16664893)

Beware. This may well be a tactic to stall the development of key open source projects. Note that Microsoft has done a similar deal with Xen (virtualization). By offering a small amount of money (for Microsoft), they gain control over the direction of the project.

Microsoft has invested in SCO. Do you think they changed their mind about open source one day to the other? No.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more of these deal with other open source firms (think Red Hat, Novell, ...).

The only way to protect open source is by GPL'ing it and keeping it out of the enterprise sphere. Community is harder buy.

Re:This is the hug of the bear (1)

Generic Player (1014797) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665315)

"The only way to protect open source is by GPL'ing it and keeping it out of the enterprise sphere."

Yep, just look at what happened to all the freely licensed software used in enterprises all the time, like apache for instance. Too bad it was taken over by those evil corporations and now we can't use it any more huh? If only they had GPL'd it and somehow magically kept it "out of the enterprise sphere", we'd still be able to have webservers.

what does Zend have worth stealing? (1)

wardk (3037) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664917)

this can't be about making PHP work better. MS doesn't enter into agreements unless there is something worth steali...er innovating.

Re:what does Zend have worth stealing? (1)

PHPfanboy (841183) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665301)

Actually it *is* about having PHP (multi-process *nix background) run better on Windows (multi-threaded environment).

It's about MSFT being whipped in the hosting business (despite GoDaddy) and losing servers at the Workgroups level. I don't think it will help them much, but it might.

Market Share (1)

everphilski (877346) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665347)

They'd be stealing market share, people would be more willing to host on Windows boxes over linux boxes if the performance was comparable/better. Right now the performance isn't as good as a linux box.

Special MS PHP? (4, Interesting)

pestilence669 (823950) | more than 7 years ago | (#16664921)

This isn't good news for any party. Is this the beginning of a "special" PHP version for Windows? It's not as far fetched as it sounds.

C++ in Visual Studio is not exactly standards compliant. It's definitely Microsoft specific, as is their: HTML, CSS, XML, Java, TCP/IP stack, HTTP negotiation, LDAP, kerberos, DNS, DHCP, etc., etc. Every "standard" and language they adopt gets altered, even when completely unnecessary.

What on earth will they do to PHP? Assimilate it into .NET?

What PHP really needs is a MS SQL driver that doesn't leak memory and cause access violations. Microsoft hasn't supported their C library in years. PHP doesn't need any "help" from Microsoft, IMHO.

Re:Special MS PHP? (1)

A Friendly Troll (1017492) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665305)

What on earth will they [Microsoft] do to PHP? Assimilate it into .NET?
Already been done by a 3rd party: Phalanger [php-compiler.net]

The benchmarks are interesting... I suppose that stuff works about as fast as Apache+PHP on a libre OS.

Re:Special MS PHP? (1)

nuzak (959558) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665499)

> What on earth will they do to PHP? Assimilate it into .NET?

Quite possibly. It's already been assimilated into Java [caucho.com]

a match made in vulnerability hell (3, Funny)

greenpotatochip (958150) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665041)

holy vulnerable software batman, the riddler and the joker have joined forces!

Makes Perfect Sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16665201)

Everyone knows that anything with the Microslop brand name is completely insecure, and PHP-based applications have a long-running history of being wildly susceptible to exploitation and are the most-targeted favorites of hackers, so it actually makes perfect sense for Microslop to embrace PHP - they're two peas in a pod.

what new product with MS release next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16665377)

Microsoft PHP .net?

Microsoft P#?

Microsoft P++ (.net?)?

this is only microsofts first step in fragmenting the popularity of php into windows-centric flavors

It could just be (1)

slapout (93640) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665593)

that they are afraid that Zend will sue them because "Zune" is so similar--so they're making nice.

This is an unexpected move. At OSS. (1)

Qbertino (265505) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665613)

This is squarely aimed against OSS and all it stands for.
Desktop Linux hasn't caught on. Not yet. But PHP has. Like it or not, PHP has turned into the king of the server-side. MS must have noticed how much it's gnawing at ASPs marketshare (Just did a comment on that [slashdot.org] the other day). PHP even has turned into a brigdehead for Linux at this point. That they'd team up with Zend is an unexpected but somewhat fitting move.
I've never really known what to make of Zend. Their PHP groundwork is fair enough, but all-in-all I allways was weary about what they're up to. Their entire Zend Plattform sheebang allways came across to me as somewhat suspicious. Could it be that MS tries to take on OSS via the popular OSS languages? Zend seems to be the right candidate and can - like everyone else - easyly be convinced by a fat wad of MS cash to fork of 90% of their time on 'optimizing' for MS. And we all know what that means.

In the end this can only turn out bad if MS stays with PHP. They are still way to powerfull and have to much mindshare to not overtake things. Joining a Linux shop would be suspicious and they'd give themselves away. Joining a big player of an OSS language though is something entirely different. Zend with PHP is the ideal candidate for such a move.

Right know that I've gone PHP fullscale they do a stunt like this. 'guess I'm gonna continue to keep my Python skills up-to-date aswell. ... Just imagine the same crap as with Ecma JavaScript and MS JScript with OSS PHP and the "MS PHP Engine" or something. Give me the creeps just thinking of it. ... Oh, and not to forget the RoRails zealots in the OSS camp. They're gonna have a field week ranting over PHP with this new ammunition. Just great.
Thank you, MS, you made my day once again.

Next Target (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665727)

Seems microsoft has chosen another target to 'embrace, extend, destroy'.

Oh god (2, Interesting)

Mancat (831487) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665729)

Do you think that Microsoft would just like to improve IIS' PHP support? You know, so that they might attract more web developers to the IIS platform naturally?

God no. They must be trying to destroy it.

Slashdot logic.

A good thing (3, Informative)

talonyx (125221) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665817)

PHP is licensed under the GPL, so we don't need to worry about an MS-proprietary version of it. They'd have to reimplement the system from scratch, and who would bother to do that when they have ASP.NET?

I for one would love to see .NET support for PHP so I could use it to write native Windows GUI programs, access ODBC in a more robust fashion, and get more access to Windows-internal stuff that is so easy to do on Unix but so hard to do on Windows.
A bit of performance would be nice, but chances are I will keep running my servers on Debian simply because that's all they are: brainless webservers with muscle and nothing holding them back.

Obvious theft (1)

PacketScan (797299) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665821)

I think this is obvious to anyone that has been around the block..
They are going to steal key tech from zend and use it in their own web server.
win-php 2009

Business Sense (1)

aquai (994733) | more than 7 years ago | (#16665889)

I doubt very much that Zend would evaluate a partnership like this as being, or creating a business disadvantage to the PHP platform. I also doubt very much that Zend ever had a mission of being exlusively on any one platform. That says to me they will aggressively develop PHP - and use this to their advantage in providing best of breed web scripting technologies. The real question is how this will or will/not work with ASP. Also interesting to see Andi's response to Microsoft's interview on the lab site: http://port25.technet.com/archive/2006/10/31/Talki ng-with-Andi-Gutmans-about-Zend-and-working-with-M icrosoft-to-improve-PHP-Performance-on-Windows.asp x [technet.com]
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