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Red Hat Says They'll Be In Linux Long After Novell

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the fighting-words dept.

150

Jane Walker writes "Red Hat general counsel Mark Webbink goes to the mat for his company regarding the Microsoft/Novell partnership, in this SearchOpenSource.com Q&A. 'In one year, Red Hat will be all that remains of commercial Linux, he said.'" From the article: "Between last week and this one, it is clear that the two largest software vendors in the world perceive Linux to be at least on the same plane as them. They have got to respect what we have done. Having said that, does Red Hat think either of them has taken the right approach, now that Microsoft and Novell have made 'Microvell'? They've gone off the road a bit, we think, but we are feeling good about the attention that has been brought to Linux. "

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Abstract (1)

lennyhell (869433) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714663)

A predominantly solid, phallus-shaped, semi-rigid device with an internal mechanism that expands designated surface regions outwardly to change the shape of the device. A fluid filled reservoir located at one end of the device expresses fluid through internal channels, causing the resilient expansion at specified surface regions due to a locally reduced cross section. A sexual preference transfer function that combines the masturbatory action of a first person with the expressed or non-expressed sexual preferences of a second person. A sexual preference transfer function is utilized to improve the control or influence of a sexual pleasure device in contact with a second person based on autonomic and/or manually collected data. FP?

Dubious (1, Troll)

BeeBeard (999187) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714667)

In one year's time, it's quite possible that Red Hat will have already lost the battle of even just supporting their own product. [oracle.com]

Re:Dubious (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16714853)

Are you seriously saying that Oracle can support Red Hat better than Red Hat can? Have you actually tried to support Oracle? They can't even support that properly. Their dependencies on archaic libraries like compat-gcc-296, hilarious dependencies on irrelevant packages like xscreensaver, and installation instructions that rival the US tax code make me cringe at the very thought of hiring Oracle to support Linux itself. Not to mention the company itself doesn't even care about their customers, things such as random licensing reviews make companies spend thousands or millions of dollars for no reason so Larry Ellison can have a new boat.

I have no faith in oracle as a product OR as a company. They are the real enemy to computing, not Microsoft.

Re:Dubious (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16715039)

Silence, troll. If any of us owned a company with over 70 times the annual revenue of sad little Red Hat, it wouldn't matter what kind of support we offered customers. Red Hat would be yesterday's news, a pathetic bug squashed by our gigantic fiscal boot. When Red Hat is bought out in 18 months, you will look foolish for even intimating that Red Hat's superior whatever can save them. Oh yes, Oracle has been on a shopping spree. Or haven't you heard?

Re:Dubious (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16715065)

I didn't say it would save them. I said oracle's technology and support blows.

Re:Dubious (1)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715181)

And as a neutral party who sits here and watches both being used in the commercial space, but has no loyalty to either, I would say that MS is far worse. They have legions of support ppl and yet they have virus, bugs, huge amounts of downtime. The costs of support on windows is many times what Oracle is (again from an outside POV). Of course, you can argue that it is because windows is on so many systems, but I have noticed that when DBAs need help from Oracle, they get it. OTH, trying to get an honest answer from MS? Hell will freeze over before MS comes clean with their bugs.

Re:Dubious (1)

walt-sjc (145127) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715387)

Oracle, like Cisco and Sun, and other enterprise class companies, have support teams around the world that will work with you 24 hours a day until the problem is resolved. I don't buy the Redhat supported linux because: 1) I can support all of linux myself just fine, and 2) it is WAY overpriced for what you get when dealing with volume licenses. The volume license model is f*cked. It doesn't cost 73 times more to support 75 servers that are all clones of each other on identicle hardware than it does 1 (the price break is virtually nil.) Maybe 3 times, but not 73. I would much prefer to buy chunks of time or incidents than license per server, but they don't have that option. Windows is WAY less expensive. So I donate to and use Centos.

Re:Dubious (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16715957)

quite true all that was said above

we opened a SR / tar 3 days ago on a corrupted active redolog. this happened at the end of the work day we were given a severity 1 and the back and forth was quick but within 4 hours, oracle support told us they couldnt help us and that our production server was hosed.

naturally, we lost the data for that day.

in all honesty, i cant say how good or bad oracle is when i cant compare them to any 1 else. we use ibm servers and they normally show up in 15 minutes if we tell them our system is done. redhat in my country sucks. we dont rely on them for support. they only know how to sell and badly at that (since we went to them asking for the sale!).

linux vendor are runniung scared.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16714963)

just look at all of the fud-based articals that certain linux vendors & the FOSS community have released over the past 48 hours.

It is clear that they are running scared....

Red Hat Beats it's own chest (2, Insightful)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714669)

*Yawn*

Alright, if you do read the actual article (a foreign concept for some I know), they do make some valid points about Linux in general. Such as that Microsoft has finally admitted it has to take Linux seriously. But one thing that does concern me.

I don't think Linux customers have anything to worry about there.

So people who use Novell and Microsoft products are safe, but what about those that choose other products? Will they get sued?

One year ago, we provided a counterweight to people with patent portfolios that may threaten open source software by building a contravening portfolio of software patents.

Nothing says that the patent system is more broken then this.

Think back to the Microsoft/Sun announcement from a couple years ago, and today, you haven't seen any of the promised technical collaboration from that partnership whatsoever.

Heh. Now there's an apt comparison.

That problem is, you can be either for freedom and collaboration, or you can take a different approach

Aaawh, now come on. You can come out and say it. "You're either for freedom and collaboration, or you're against it."

I can at least respect Microsoft, because they don't pretend to be an open source company.

Come on, we all know what you're saying. Leave that bush alone it's looking pretty nackered. "Novell isn't an open source company, even though it pretends to be." There, now was that so hard?

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

QuietLagoon (813062) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714913)

Such as that Microsoft has finally admitted it has to take Linux seriously.

Let's see, what other companies has Microsoft partnered with in order to improve Windows interoperability? 3Com, Sybase....

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

laffer1 (701823) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715035)

Sun...

Yes, all these companies are not doing that well today. They are not out of business either. I think Redhat makes a good point about Novell pulling out of Linux before they do. Look at the Novell track record. The real issue is why is Novell making the deal with Microsoft? Could it be that many people don't consider them relevant anymore with Netware and Groupwise? Perhaps their plans for Suse have not come to pass. I've worked for two different Universities that use Netware/Groupwise and are slowly migrating off of it for Microsoft, Sun and Apple solutions. Linux was not deployed. Granted universities tend to make terrible choices in software and hardware.

This is Novell's big attempt to get relevant again. Perhaps if we ignore it they will go away!

Alternate theory (1)

Mateo_LeFou (859634) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715323)

just thinking aloud: Novell has some sort(s) of big plans for Mono. Mono is the most likely target of patent action by MS. They're covering their bases before they roll out a killer app.

Re:Alternate theory (1)

laffer1 (701823) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715429)

Novell has been trying to replace groupwise with a .NET version for some time. They want it to run in mono on linux as well as in windows. Anything to get rid of the terrible memory leaks would be an improvement. I should explain... Groupwise 6.5 has a little issue. Once a user sent an email to everyone at the university I worked for. She did not use a list, but actually addressed everyone individually. On most computers, Groupwise consumed so much ram that it actually overwrote memory for other processes including the Intel graphics drivers. The result was strange corruptions and crashes across all machines. I worked support at the time and some of the techs initially assumed it was some new virus but it turned out just to be groupwise. Novell was in the process of rolling out groupwise 7 and therefore would not consider fixing 6.5.

Re:Alternate theory (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716599)

If Groupwise was able to overwrite memory of the Intel graphics driver, then there was more wrong with those computers than just Groupwise.

Re:Alternate theory (1)

laffer1 (701823) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716737)

Yes, they were dell systems with XP SP2. Since intel graphics use shared system memory, it wasn't too hard to cause the problem.

If you enable software buffer overflow protection, groupwise ALWAYS crashed. No other applications would misbehave that we had in our image.

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (2, Informative)

kripkenstein (913150) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715187)

So people who use Novell and Microsoft products are safe, but what about those that choose other products? Will they get sued?

As has been discussed at length in many places in recent days, this doesn't seem likely. To summarize:

1. There is no real 'new' risk to other Linux distros than there was a week ago. Just FUD. Saying "but Novell admit there are patents" isn't a real argument.

2. Microsoft cannot easily crush their competition with patents, because (a) of the risk of antitrust measures, (b) the EU may decide to never allow software patents, once they see such abuse, and (c) other parties, e.g. IBM, which have a great interest in Linux, won't stand by idly, and they have their own patent portfolios (leading to mutually assured destruction for all).

3. Should Microsoft sue (e.g.) Red Hat on some patent, and later on Novell admit that they have a license for the same patent from Microsoft, then they are in violation of the GPL, and Novell's entire Linux line of products is dead in the water. Novell would never put themselves at such risk. So either (a) Microsoft won't sue other people, or (b) Novell won't claim they have a license from Microsoft in the event that they do sue. Note that in the latter case, Novell appear about as protected as Red Hat (which currently indemnify their customers), and no more.

So, in the end, nothing has changed, except for the apparent "gentlemans' arrangement" between Microsoft and Novell not to sue each other. This may appeal to some managers and lead them to choose SUSE, but that is all it is, a little good PR.

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

jlowe (907739) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715553)

I think you summarize what is going on well, but you are missing a key component that is leading you astray on your first point.

There is no "new risk," per se, but there is a less treacherous path for Microsoft should they decide to sue commercial linux vendors or non-profit companies (more than an individual developer). Linux has some protection from Microsoft or other companies with software patent portfolios because Linux has had the backing of Novell and IBM. Both of those companies have very large portfolios of patents. Microsoft has to respect the possibility that if they go after linux, there may be a retaliation. Now that Novell and Microsoft have made an agreement regarding each other's "intellectual property," that clears all of Novell's patents from being used against Microsoft should they decide to attack linux.

No new risk, but a more probable scenario.

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (3, Insightful)

molnarcs (675885) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715815)

So, in the end, nothing has changed, except for the apparent "gentlemans' arrangement" between Microsoft and Novell not to sue each other. This may appeal to some managers and lead them to choose SUSE, but that is all it is, a little good PR.

That's hilariously naive. A little good PR? Well, you forget about the BIG BAD PR for the entire linux community. I will spell out for you what exactly happened: Novell (the holder of Unix copyrights btw, and a linux distributor) acknowledged that Microsoft might have valid patent claims in linux. If you haven't realized: that's pretty bad.

And I will explain it in Ballmer's words as well, if you think I'm crazy or a zealot (btw, I use FreeBSD, not linux, but care for the FLOSS movement):

The distributors of other versions of Linux cannot assure their customers that Microsoft won't sue for patent infringement. "If a customer says, 'Look, do we have liability for the use of your patented work?' Essentially, If you're using non-SUSE Linux, then I'd say the answer is yes," Ballmer said. "I suspect that [customers] will take that issue up with their distributor," Ballmer said. Or if customers are considering doing a direct download of a non-SUSE Linux version, "they'll think twice about that," he said.
Novell succeeded in what SCO failed - incriminated linux distributions. SCO was a weak proxy of Microsoft, now Novell is much much stronger - after all, it is the company that has ~20% marketshare in the enterprise linux arena.

Some people think (I'm not referring specifically to your post) that calling others zealots, because they are angry and disappointed is somehow cool. They think that they sound more intelligent if they think only inside the pragmatical/technical box. Here is another angle for those - until now, linux distributions participated in "pure" competition. What I mean is that they competed on two fronts: technical merits of the distribution, and quality of support and services. This was good, even if sometimes it got nasty (like in Oracle case). Novell tainted this with another factor: the MS patent flag. This is very bad on the long run ... unless Novell is stopped somehow.

Oh, and fuck Miguel and friends. They only care for pushing their own agenda. Last year Novell leadership was convinced that going GNOME and MONO is a good idea. Then they had to backpedal, not only because existing customers who standardized on KDE, but because there were migration plans in progress that specifically choose KDE on SuSE, and one of them was a 2000 desktop migration plan (in Europe). Then we had Miguel saying for YEARS that there are no patent issues with MONO. And now, he claims that MONO is finally safe, at least if you use Novell's linux offerings. Yes, yes, some people would say that they saw this coming, after all, he has been a Microsoft fan for some time now. And now:

So today we have secured a peace of mind for Novell customers that might have been worried about possible patent infringements open source deployments. This matters in particular for Mono, because for a long time its been the favorite conversation starter for folks that find dates on Slashdot.
Well, what about non-Novell customers, Mr. Miguel? There goes all the warning agains incorporating MONO technology into GNOME btw.

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716285)

Well, there's a really simple solution. Ban software patents. We don't have them here in the EU, so I don't care about this pact. On the other hand, it's becoming increasingly difficult to keep it that way, and the argument is always the need to 'harmonise' our patent system with the USA, so you guys in Leftpondia could make our lives a lot easier if you'd spend some time slapping your elected representatives. My MEP is an active member of the FFII [ffii.org] . Will you be voting for active EFF [eff.org] supporters tomorrow?

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

molnarcs (675885) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716411)

That would be exactly the solution. But: how long do you think that the EU remains patent free? The European Parliament can reject the drafts a few times, but eventually, the European Committee can push it through if it wants to. That's one flaw of the EU - EC has too much power compared to EP.

The problem is, that Novell provided pro-patent legislators some munition. It would be wise for European linux wendors to cooperate on a higher level, and put unprecedented pressure on pro-patent legislations. A joint anti-patent organization sponsored by all linux vendors, with the sole job of raising publicity, countering every single pro-patent claim, organizing awareness-rising events, etc. I know this is happening through FFII right now, but we need much-much more.

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

kripkenstein (913150) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716417)

That's hilariously naive. A little good PR? Well, you forget about the BIG BAD PR for the entire linux community. I will spell out for you what exactly happened: Novell (the holder of Unix copyrights btw, and a linux distributor) acknowledged that Microsoft might have valid patent claims in linux. If you haven't realized: that's pretty bad.

I agree that it is bad PR, but disagree on the amount. Now, if the actual patents were disclosed, this would be far worse (but disclosing them would put Novell in GPL violation). As it is, it is a general statement. Yes, some managers will buy Novell products because of a vague fear caused by the claim. But those same managers can buy Red Hat as well, or Oracle for that matter, since they are guaranteed indemnification (Red Hat clarified that matter just yesterday on their website). So in the end, I don't see how such managers' decisions will greatly change.

That is for commercial distros. As for noncommercial distros, nothing has really changed. For the reasons in my previous post, I am wagering they won't get sued.

[SNIP - arguments against Mono]

For those reasons, and others, I develop in Python (and C++, when I must).

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

molnarcs (675885) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716639)

I think that this is a bigger problem than you think, because it affects so many aspects of the FLOSS movement. Just one aspect I didn't even mention : what will happen to Novell's contributions? Patents need not to be disclosed to be effective. The fact that Novell and Microsoft now claims that there are - undisclosed - patents in some of the software that is covered by the agreement (MONO, ooo.org, SAMBA) is enough to view every possible Novell contribution as dangerous. If nothing else, this might remove Novell from the FLOSS pool. Again, I don't say this is going to happen (although I think this is much more likely than MS suing RH) - but the fact that we even have to discuss this is bad enough. How will upstream developers react? Would they merge Novell changes as easily as they have done in the past? Not likely, as long as code developed by Novell is under the MS-Novell patent covenant.

If you take one aspect alone that this agreement affects, it might be a minor issue, but there are lots of minor issues raised by this agreement, and they add up in my opinion. And there are lots of major issues - depending on how you look at these. For me, the competitive-cooperative model of FLOSS development is the most important asset of free software. Now that asset became somewhat tainted. Competition based on technical excellence and quality of service became tainted (I didn't like what Oracle did, but their move still remained inside the cooperative-competitive model). For me, that's a big problem, but I can accept opinions that regard this as a minor one. But if I take all the issues - be they minor or major ones - I'd say this deal is a big problem.

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

kripkenstein (913150) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716947)

I see your point, and in fact developers may be wary of Novell code. But I again think that this is mostly psychological, and not justified. If Novell distribute GPL code, then they are necessarily distributing along with it a license to all relevant patents (and again, if they aren't, then Novell are in violation of the GPL). As for non-GPL code from Novell, well, I am wary of non-GPL code in general. The license in such cases needs to be carefully inspected (and if it doesn't contain a patent clause, then that would be dangerous). But if I recall correctly most of Novell's contributions, such as Mono, are in fact GPL or LGPL.

But still, your point is valid, this is a problem for Linux. I tend to think that it will turn out to be not a very serious one, but I admit I may be missing some angle here. Time will tell.

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

molnarcs (675885) | more than 7 years ago | (#16717055)

I see your point, and in fact developers may be wary of Novell code. But I again think that this is mostly psychological, and not justified. If Novell distribute GPL code, then they are necessarily distributing along with it a license to all relevant patents (and again, if they aren't, then Novell are in violation of the GPL).

I see your point too - I just don't differentiate between psychological problems and ... well, what? Even if the problem is merely psychological, and unjustified because of the letter of the GPL (you are absolutely correct there, that's what E.Moglen says as well), it has real world practical effects. In fact, a very large portion of marketing is merely psychological. The way FUD works is entirely psychological, but it has real-world consequences, like slowing down the adoption of linux, more - well, psychological - ammunition for pro-patent legislators in the EU, etc.

One way to fight this is to point out that there are conflicts between the letter - and the spirit - of the GPL and the deal made by Novell. That's what we are doing here, which is good :)

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16715211)

"Nothing says that the patent system is more broken then this."

Nooo not dandies, than this!

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

houghi (78078) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715697)

So people who use Novell and Microsoft products are safe, but what about those that choose other products? Will they get sued?


No change in what the situation already was for all the others. Absolutely no change there. It says they won't go after Novell. It does not say that it will go after everybody else. To asume that is prety much Bush-thinking. ;-)

"Novell isn't an open source company, even though it pretends to be." There, now was that so hard?


You are right, it is easy to say. I don't think Novell would say that they pretend to be an OSS company, because they are not. They have started openSUSE.org, they have put YaST under the GPL and they have made it possible to make a pure OSS SUSE installation (just don't install the non-oss CD). They stared the build service.

Yet they also are aware that they have plenty of closed source stuff that they are not likely to make OSS in the very near future.

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

molnarcs (675885) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716307)

No change in what the situation already was for all the others. Absolutely no change there. It says they won't go after Novell. It does not say that it will go after everybody else. To asume that is prety much Bush-thinking. ;-)

Let me clarify this - there isn't any need to assume that they will actually go after other linux companies. The fact that we are discussing this possibility is bad enough for the reputation of linux in general. I my opinion, that's what Microsoft will do - it won't actually go after RedHat, but it will imply the possibility of doing that. Thanks to novell, they can now do that with some credibility (even though the actual possibility is remote).

To put it in another, more familiar way:

SCO: buy a licence from us, and you won't get sued NOVELL: use our own distribution, and you won't get sued by Microsoft

Or in Ballmer's words:

The distributors of other versions of Linux cannot assure their customers that Microsoft won't sue for patent infringement. "If a customer says, 'Look, do we have liability for the use of your patented work?' Essentially, If you're using non-SUSE Linux, then I'd say the answer is yes," Ballmer said. "I suspect that [customers] will take that issue up with their distributor," Ballmer said. Or if customers are considering doing a direct download of a non-SUSE Linux version, "they'll think twice about that," he said.
So the damage is already done, but instead of the pitiful attempt of SCO, we now have a linux vendor hand in hand with Microsoft operating the FUD machine. If you haven't realized: that's pretty bad for linux in general (and we will see how good it is for Novell).

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

houghi (78078) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716395)

operating the FUD machine.


The only FUD I have seen so far is from the community itself. There is no change for those non-SUSE Linux users. There might be only a change for the SUSE Linux users.

The fact is that if you use Novell you won't get sued. That has changed.
If you use anything else, you could get sued before, you can get sued now. No difference there.

Let us talk numbers. Say 100 ditributions. This means 100 distributions could get sued in the past. Now SUSE can't get sued. That means 99 can STILL get sued. No change for them

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

molnarcs (675885) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716907)

The only FUD I have seen so far is from the community itself. You must be joking, or completely blind. Since when is Ballmer part of the linux community?
Such talks would be a good idea, Ballmer suggested, since now only Novell's SUSE Linux customers are the only Linux vendors that have any assurance that Microsoft won't sue for patent infringement.... Steve Ballmer
There, now you saw some FUD - actually, do you understand the meaning of that acronym - that doesn't originate from the linux community.

I stated this multiple times in this thread: I DON'T SAY THEY WILL ACTUALLY SUE OTHER LINUX VENDORS. If they would do that, that wouldn't be FUD, would it? It would simply be a fact of life. FUD - Fear Uncertainty and Doubt - that's exactly what is introduced in the competition of FLOSS (a competition that so far was based on technical merits and quality of support). They just insinuate all linux distributions and many commercial FLOSS developers (that's a broad category, just to name one project: KDE - many kde developers are employed by a commercial companey, trolltech). If you don't see that a problem, that's fine. Probably you didn't see SCO a problem either, after all, if we talk numbers, 99 linux distributions were not sued by them...

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest (1)

blackest_k (761565) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716729)

http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq.html [novell.com] [novell.com]
"Under the patent agreement, both companies will make up-front payments in exchange for a release from any potential liability for use of each others patented intellectual property, with a net balancing payment from Microsoft to Novell reflecting the larger applicable volume of Microsoft's product shipments. Novell will also make running royalty payments based on a percentage of its revenues from open source products."

WTF Microsoft gets Royalty payments from Novell for sales and support of Novells linux distro

Suse Linux 10.1 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16714671)

i just bought Suse linux 10.1. the on-line
update that used to work so good in 9.1 is
useless.
might it be that this microvell thing has
started way longer ago, since i recall
some "boss" of suse leaven after novell acquired
suse and that this was the "idea" all along?

anyway can i have my working on-line update back please, novvel?

Re:Suse Linux 10.1 (1)

houghi (78078) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715783)

This is a known issue. Just do a YaST Online Update (not via zen) and all will work well. To get it from scratch, download 10.1 which is basicaly the same as before, but with patches untill october 9th.

After the download, just point to your DVD for all aditional software, or point to the repositories.

If you want to use the 9.1 way, just use YaST (and even uninstall the updater). Works great as it always did.

Navel staring (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16714673)

Between last week and this one, it is clear that the two largest software vendors in the world perceive Linux to be at least on the same plane as them. They have got to respect what we have done. Having said that, does Red Hat think either of them has taken the right approach, now that Microsoft and Novell have made 'Microvell'? They've gone off the road a bit, we think, but we are feeling good about the attention that has been brought to Linux.

Don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but to a hell-hole of a lot of people the thing that happened with Novell isn't even a blip on the radar. Novell may have gotten of the road, but in Microsoft scope it's trivial.

Sure, attention is always good and perhaps Red Hat can take advantage of that, but all this grand talk doesn't do it for me. Please just keep pluggin away at making a better product. You are getting there.

That's would be assuming (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16714677)

assuming Red Hat haven't by that time gone out of business from losing their primary source of income to Oracle. [vnunet.com]

Re:That's would be assuming (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16714697)

There are only FIVE posts in this topic and yours is already redundant! This is the first post - almost word for word.

Re:That's would be assuming (1)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714707)

[nitpick]Actually it's the second, something called Abstract is the first :P[/nitpick]

Move along, nothing to see here... (1)

sasha328 (203458) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714679)

This is not about IP. This is about the freedom to meet customer needs and to create competition. That problem is, you can be either for freedom and collaboration, or you can take a different approach. These companies are trying to do both. I can at least respect Microsoft, because they don't pretend to be an open source company.

Intersting jibe at Novell. Although I agree. I've got nothing against MS' products, but their philosophy and that of "Linux" companies are diamerically opposed. I see no logic in Novell's moves at all. MS gains by improving virtualisation (and VMWARE is the real threat) for linux products.

For all it's worth though, in 5, 10 maybe 15 years, the landscape wil be totally different, and the consumer will still be able to do their work just as effectively if not more so than today.

Re:Move along, nothing to see here... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16714879)

What about a compatability layer that allows Novell's flavors of linux to offer and support Microsoft's various DRM products? Yes boo evil. But it'd also be nice to have the option.

Oh, come on... (2, Informative)

Mikachu (972457) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714693)

Do you really have to go and call it 'Microvell'? It's a partnership, not a merger. Don't get them confused.

Re:Oh, come on... (1)

AdamKG (1004604) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714723)

Do you really have to go and call it 'Microvell'? It's a partnership, not a merger. Don't get them confused.
I do believe the correct term is "assimilation."

Re:Oh, come on... (1)

porl (932021) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714787)

it appears that novell believed that resistance *was* futile...

Re:Oh, come on... (1)

Sassinak (150422) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715665)

On paper it is a partnership, but lets be honest.

When one large firm partners with a smaller firm, its only a matter of time before the larger firm takes over and absorbs the smaller one. And especially since MS has a history of this. (partnering with a firm, and then "deciding" that they can do better if they just purchase the smallr firm).

Re:Oh, come on... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16715127)

To the extent that this is about:

1. Pure vapour-powered marketing;
2. The will to profit from licencing, thus avoiding real work and
3. A desire to exterminate the competitive landscape, thereby remaining the sole survivor

I suggest an alternative better name for the deal: NOSOFT.

Re:Oh, come on... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16715241)

Didn't stop people from using the phrase Wintel.

I'm thinking 'coalition of the willing' (n/t) (1)

Mateo_LeFou (859634) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715339)

no text today.

wintel got used... (1)

zogger (617870) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716047)

..for a long time. Fair is fair and all... and we have MacIntel now, too. It's just funny, that's all. I think it's amusing really. The name, not the situation, the situation sucks. Although better now than later, the entire computing world needs to have some things sorted in the courts more, copyrights versus patents (like, why does software get both, but novels and musical scores don't? Ideas represented by a language or languages and symbols, etc, able to be put on dead trees or represented by electronic bits, seems roughly similar to me anyway) and etc.

Of course, MS still isn't finished with the anti trust action, billy and stevie got a court date in iowa now. Isn't that special.

All that remains? (0)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714721)

So, not only are they going to wipe out SUSE, but Xandros, Linspire. etc etc.

Going to be a busy year for Redhat.

Re:All that remains? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16714771)

In the minds of business folk, there is Red Hat, and there is Novell. Most have no idea who Linspire is, or Xandros, or Mandriva...at least in the US. Kevin Carmony of Linspire made some good points and observations: http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.p hp?id=36 [linspire.com] I don't think Linux in general has anything to worry about, but I am not convinced that Novell does not. The bread and butter of any Linux vendor is the community, and I think Novell angered a lot of their people. They certainly angered a lot of people who may have given their distro thought before. I for one have no interest in using it anymore, although to be fair I didn't care for it for personal use anyway; I thought it made a good choice for someone coming from Windows who just wanted to get basic work done. Now I won't recommend it for that, but that's just personal preference.

Re:All that remains? (1)

felosi (986666) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714819)

meh who cares, novell sucks just as bad as microsoft. Red hat owns both their faces and even though they are commercial they are true open source, we got centos to prove that. There is lot of stupid talk about ubuntu gonna put redhat under, microsoft gunning for red hat, etc. Nope red hat will only grow in all markets besides desktop. I know in my opinion you cant beat red hat for servers. And without redhat there would be no centos which is the most popular server distro at the moment. let novell and ms do what they want, they can join together and suck in eternal bliss.

And what about Novell? (1)

Junta (36770) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715435)

What about Novell's treatment of SuSE has made it less open source/sucky? CentOS exists to the chagrin of RedHat. RedHat would love to be able to and has tried to make life hard within the boundaries of the law, without being overly dickheaded about it. RedHat discontinued offering their distro for free download, and transitioned to having the Fedora project be the equivalent, so the RH name was made 'pure' commercial.

Novell at first look even seems to have made it more open. I.e. yast was not an open product before the Novell buyout, it now is. SuSE in iso form was at one point not downloadable (though you could install via network all the packages), but now OpenSuSE is out there (dunno how OpenSuSE's inception correlates if at all to Novell).

Truth is RedHat is ahead by market momentum alone right now. They were the first to get entrenched commercially particularly in the US. Their offering at the core is just about the same as any other distro, but the RedHat name carries it. RedHat and Novell are the big commercial players because they put forth the most professional images, and because they understand the product lifecycle that companies want. They have their differences, SuSE has a more centralized configuration app (YaST, which i ultimately almost never use), SLES10 happened to release at a time ripe for incorporating Xen virtualization (RHEL5 I'd wager will equalize this). The meat of it is they are about the same.

I don't see how Novell is sucking, did they start sucking when they started talking to Microsoft? I admit that single deal is fishy, but the company has yet to actually do anything that is sucky yet.

The next (1)

Konster (252488) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714767)

"Novell also takes issue with Ballmer's comments that no vendor today stands behind Linux with full intellectual-property indemnification."

That's the salvo that will be the real start of the war. The question isn't whether Microsoft will follow SCO's lead, but WHEN.

Re:The next (1)

Znork (31774) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714855)

Of course, at that point we can also expect to see the EU Directorates get into a fullscale civil war between the DG Markt, Comp, InfSo and some others, over wether IP law is in any form compatible with anti-trust and a competetive market.

Indemm (1)

TheGreatDonkey (779189) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714781)

I think the bigger news from this article is the fact that RedHat is now offering indemnification for its customers. They slipped this into their FAQ now as well ( http://www.redhat.com/promo/believe/ [redhat.com] ). While I think their hand was forced a bit on this one in order to remain competitive with where the market seems to be going, its still welcome news. This has been a significant hurdle for many companies even considering whether to adopt open source. As it becomes more widespread and "the norm" that you do not need to worry about legal hassles for running Linux, more companies will consider the switch.

Re:Indemm (1)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714823)

I think the bigger news from this article is the fact that RedHat is now offering indemnification for its customers.

So what, people have one of two choices now? Novell/Microsoft or Red Hat? Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me. But then again the American people are happy with it for their government, so I suppose they'll be happy with it for their operating system.

Re:Indemm (1)

houghi (78078) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715855)

So what, people have one of two choices now? Novell/Microsoft or Red Hat?


No, they have three choices. Novell, RedHat or Microsoft. Ther only thing that has happend is that Novell and Microsoft will be working together to get better interoperability.

If you don't want or need that and if it is something that only Novell has, that no problem. Choose what you want.
If it is something you need, the chances are high that Novell has brought it back to the OSS community and you can still select RedHat, through Novells work.
If it is something only Novell has, because others don't want to implement it, you still have two choices. Either use that software or don't, like you don't use it now, because it doesnt exist yet.

the real reason for the MS Novell deal .. (1)

rs232 (849320) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714797)

"now only Novell's SUSE Linux customers are the only Linux vendors that have any assurance that Microsoft won't sue for patent infringement..." Steve Ballmer

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=200611032 01234813 [groklaw.net]

Laughing At The Mono Idiots (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16714809)

So much for the idiots claiming that mono garbage had no patent problems...

Idiots.

Now you're fucked. Congrats!

Re:Laughing At The Mono Idiots (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16714975)

Jesus.... go outside or something.

Trustworthy? (1, Interesting)

Decaff (42676) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714829)

Think back to the Microsoft/Sun announcement from a couple years ago, and today, you haven't seen any of the promised technical collaboration from that partnership whatsoever.

This comment alone makes me sceptical about this article, as it is not only incorrect, but easily shown to be false. Just to give one example, anyone who has been following the development of the latest Java release (6) knows that there has been considerable technical collaboration, one result of which is that Java on Vista will be fully integrated with the GUI. Another result is the much enhanced Ms Office compatibility of Star Office. Other results are better networking between Solaris systems and Windows.

No matter what anyone's views are of Sun, Microsoft, or Java, or Solaris or Star Office, to say that the technical collaboration can't be seen is nothing more than strong marketing spin by a commercial Linux vendor, and does not inspire confidence in anything else that is said here. Linux needs better support that this!

Earth shatering stuff! (1)

jotaeleemeese (303437) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714909)

The specialized media has been aghast with the result of such fruitful collaboration.

People are clamoring, no, begging, for more of it.

Re:Earth shatering stuff! (1)

Decaff (42676) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715155)

The specialized media has been aghast with the result of such fruitful collaboration.

People are clamoring, no, begging, for more of it.


The strange thing about supposedly ironic and sarcastic comments is that very occasionally they are, in contrast to the intentions of the author.

One of the results of the collaboration has been Java 6 integration with Windows. No matter what the common belief, Java desktop development is widespread, but what is really needed is GUI integration and performance that makes it comparable to other Windows applications. This has been one of the areas of collaboration, with Sun providing, in Java 6, such capabilities.

Here is one such 'specialised media' article:

http://www.devx.com/Java/Article/30722 [devx.com]
"Java SE 6 First Impressions: A Desktop Winner"

here is another:
http://www.builderau.com.au/program/java/soa/Java_ SE_6_in_a_nutshell/0,339024620,339266522,00.htm [builderau.com.au]
"Java SE6: A Desktop Revolution?"

So yes, there is publicity about what this collaboration has delivered for desktop Java. And many developers have indeed been 'begging' for it; Java on the desktop has been held back, many say.

So, before posting ironic comments, it is a good idea to make sure you have your facts straight....

Re:Trustworthy? (1)

canuck57 (662392) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715081)

results are better networking between Solaris systems and Windows.

Does than mean IPec on Windows now works? Heck, I have BSD, 2 Linux and 2 Solaris doing IPSec natively and together but getting Microsoft Windows OS to do it is a nighmare nemisis. But not holding my breath. But it is about the only reason to upgrade to Vista I can think of.

Re:Trustworthy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16716223)

The GUI integration has nothing to do with this technical collaboration and everything with Sun feeling .NET heat.

The SUN "vision" for Java was server-side or metal purple till MS kicked their butt. Had it been otherwise Java would have integrated with the GUI on platforms MS was not witholding info about years ago. Hint 1 : it didn't. Hint 2 : the eclipse guys proved it could be done without any special agreement years before SUN bothered to.

Not only does the Microsoft/Novell agreement... (1)

DiamondGeezer (872237) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714867)

...mean nothing but Slashdot is forgetting history. Despite commanding market positions and unique opportunities, Novell has consistently fucked up every single time without fail. Most of their managers can't scratch their own arses without two mirrors and a searchlight.

Think Novell won't fuck this up again? Wrong.

Amen to that, brother... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16714993)

Companies like novell really make one wonder why some people bother with trying to get it right... if you can so obviously survive for decades by screwing up practically everything you touch.

Re:Not only does the Microsoft/Novell agreement... (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715023)

A better piece of history to remember is how Microsoft ripped off Novell back in the OS/2 days. Network manager was supposed to be a joint project. Microsoft has done a good job targeting Novell's netware ever since.
I just can not think this is a good thing.

Re:Not only does the Microsoft/Novell agreement... (1)

canuck57 (662392) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715091)

Think Novell won't fuck this up again? Wrong.

Your quite right on this. Novell bought XIMIAN, a key component to really making a serious run at Microsoft's desktop but when it came to marketing it they fell right down without so much as gasp. Self destructive.

Give it a year and ... (1)

quiberon2 (986274) | more than 7 years ago | (#16714887)

Sony Playstations will have displaced Lenovo Personal Computers as the hot-selling technology item.

As far as I know, Microsoft Windows doesn't even run on the Sony Playstation.

Linux does, though.

Re:Give it a year and ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16715099)

.. wait for novell suse for xbox360

Re:Give it a year and ... (1)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715555)

If Sony doesn't succeed in the PS3, they may soon fold as a company. I can see WalMart buying Sony at a firesale price, just for the name. Then WalMart will simply replace the Durabrand logo on their low-end product line with their new Sony logo.

Yeah, but... (1)

ZoneGray (168419) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715041)

>> In one year, Red Hat will be all that remains of commercial Linux

Sure, but what will remain of Red Hat?

And who needs "commercial Linux" anyway?

Hey, I don't dislike Red Hat, in fact it's my favorite distro. But the idea of running a standalone Linux vendor is history. It is a dead parrot. It's nailed to its perch. It has shuffled off this mortal coil, etc. etc. etc.

Re:Yeah, but... (1)

ZoneGray (168419) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715389)

To clarify... Red Hat could continue to operate at modest profits on their current business model... but the stock market (ie, the owners) aren't going to allow it. A private owner might settle for it, but the market has been sold the stock on the basis of a growth story that no longer exists. Management will be pressured to restructure or be acquired.

It's not hopeless for them, but it's time to just completely forget the 90's business model of making money by selling a branded OS. Shucks, even Microsoft can barely pull it off nowadays. Apple uses their OS to sell hardware. Oracle plans to use Linux to sell databases and CRM. See the trend?

Meanwhile Red Hat is using Linux to sell... Linux support? Somebody will eventually find a more worthwhile use for RHEL.

Re:Yeah, but... (1)

BokLM (550487) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715679)

And who needs "commercial Linux" anyway?

"commercial Linux" contributes a lot of code to Linux and other open source projects. Linux wouldn't be what it is today without RedHat...

Re:Yeah, but... (1)

mikesd81 (518581) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716175)

Funny, I thought it was the kernel developers that make the vanilla code and other software developers that Red Hat modifies for their use?

Re:Yeah, but... (1)

BokLM (550487) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716483)

Who do you think is "the kernel developers" ?
It's mostly RedHat, Novell, and many other companies ...
And there's many other important free software that every distro include which are mainly developed by RedHat employes.
Have a look at http://www.redhat.com/truthhappens/leadership/osde velopment/ [redhat.com]

Re:Yeah, but... (1)

Poppler (822173) | more than 7 years ago | (#16717027)

Funny, I thought it was the kernel developers that make the vanilla code and other software developers that Red Hat modifies for their use?
Red Hat contributes back to vanilla. I'm grateful for what they've done, and I don't use their distro or any of its derivatives.

$ grep -r Red\ Hat /usr/src/linux

Red Hat has been very good to the Linux kernel.

Linux will be darn hard to kill (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16715161)

The one company that nobody seems to be paying attention to here is IBM. They seem to have bet the farm on Linux. They have deep pockets and they have shown a willingness to fight to protect their position. They also know that they can't survive in a Microsoft only world. So, Microsoft has IBM to contend with even if IBM doesn't have its own distro.

The other thing is that if Microsoft actually identifies a patent infringement, the community will patch around it in short time. The only way Microsoft can make this work is by never making a specific complaint. They're sort of like SCO in that respect. Maybe what Judge K. does to SCO and their lawyers BSF will make Microsoft a little more careful.

Microsoft also has the problem that their protector in high places has become intensely unpopular. Microsoft has to tread very carefully or their anti-trust penalties will be reinstated.

The situation is not nearly as gloomy for open source as some people make it out to be.

BTW. Does anyone know where the Democrats stand on software patents?

Re:Linux will be darn hard to kill (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16715215)

Linux in that form is just impossible to kill. But it doesn't mean it can't be made impractical. If a patent which Novell licenses or manages jointly with Microsoft is infringed on, they might plausibly be able to obtain injunctions against rivals commercially distriubuting their enterprise products, or forcing them to withdraw support or disable functionality related to the patent. The nightmare of dealing with such headaches, and shifting foundations would certainly give people a moment of pause when considering how their going to use Linux, even the if is a foregone conclusion. Like Micheal Jordan, you can't stop Tux, but you might be able to contain him.

Re:Linux will be darn hard to kill (1)

b0s0z0ku (752509) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715881)

If a patent which Novell licenses or manages jointly with Microsoft is infringed on, they might plausibly be able to obtain injunctions against rivals commercially distriubuting their enterprise products, or forcing them to withdraw support or disable functionality related to the patent.

Remove the functionality, then make sure that the code and packages "leak" out for free and are easily available on sites hosted in friendly countries i.e. those that don't have the same level of patent stupidity as the US.

-b.

The Democrats? Please. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16715391)

This is capitalism. The Democrats and anyone in the political class stand with the Republicans on every single issue except "who should be taking home congressional paychecks."

Re:Linux will be darn hard to kill (1)

idonthack (883680) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715623)

The other thing is that if Microsoft actually identifies a patent infringement, the community will patch around it in short time.
I'm not sure how true that is going to be. Since software patents don't cover an algorithm but the end result of the algorithm, it's not like they can write the software to just do it a different way. They will have to actually remove functionality to escape a patent lawsuit.

There are limits on patents. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16716715)

You can't use patents to forestall all methods of doing something. So, if Microsoft asserts a patent claim, someone else CAN write new non-infringing code as a matter of law.

The link below shows that there are strict limits on what a patent holder can do. Since Microsoft already has antitrust convictions their ability to kill linux with patents is constrained.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/matters/matte rs-9208.html [tms.org]

"In a case involving hydraulic pumps for use in oil wells, one company purchased 72 dominant patents in the field; the court ruled that it was not possible for someone else to make a competitive product without infringing one of the patents. The court stated that while there was nothing inherently wrong with purchasing a patent and enforcing it against an infringer, the intent and underlying purpose of accumulating such a large number of patents amounted to a violation of antitrust laws and patent misuse." So, you can have a valid patent, but if you're coming to the court with unclean hands, the court will reject your claim.

with blinders on... (about linux) (1)

3seas (184403) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715167)

good thing there is no more space for others to surface in competition.

---surface----
you can bunt too.

Come on guys,,, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16715193)

Anybody with any spirit would be echoing the MS/Novell deal. Imagine a lawfirm announcing that some mom and pop computer supplier was the exclusive licensee of their clients patents patent portfolio. That Windows vista potentially infringed on thousands of patents and the only place you can buy it from and benefit from legal protection is this one store. It need not be an isolated incident, multiple stores could probably in-fight and get an injunction to delay Vista until the courts sort it all out. MS indemnify customers upto the purchase price of the product, there's your per-user license fee.

the reason (1)

pair-a-noyd (594371) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715369)

would be because M$ is going to ass rape Novell Suse Linux into oblivion with a flaming chainsaw.
M$ is going to pollute Linux with their poison code then sue everyone else out of existence.

I've been a loyal Suse user for a few years now, I PURCHASE, use and resell Suse Linux.
I have advocated and pushed Suse Linux commercially and personally to customers, friends and family.

But this is the end of the relationship. It is time to part ways with Suse now.
I don't want to update machines only to later discover they've been tainted by M$ code.
I am now actively researching the distros for a good Suse replacement.

I see this M$ / Novell alliance as the worst thing that could happen.
This will put an end to a consumers right of freedom to choose.
Up next, M$ buys Intell, AMD, Award & Phoenix. And for desert, M$ plans to have a double helping of Apple pie.

Suggest Debian/Progeny (1)

YetAnotherBob (988800) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716517)

Progeny only sells support/services. If you can do the support, so much the better. Debian, while 'old' is rock solid stable. If you want 'newer' then go with testing. Also, 'old' isn't really old. It's just not the 'latest version'. That is because testing takes time.

Xandros, Mepis, Ubuntu, Knoppix and etc. have all shown that this is the way to go.

Loosing RPM Hell is a good benefit too.

Certification might be a bugaboo for you though.

Excerpt from a business story that doesn't exist (1)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715449)

CEO of Acme Inc: Our business model is seriously flawed, and these new competitors of ours are kicking our asses in the marketplace. We have serious concerns about the future performance of our stock, and we are unable to succeed at new product development.

Aren't they humble. (4, Insightful)

Junta (36770) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715479)

"Between last week and this one, it is clear that the two largest software vendors in the world perceive Linux to be at least on the same plane as them. They have got to respect what we have done."

So Linux is good, and it's *all* thanks to RedHat? No one else deserves credit.

"We still believe that we will be the dominant player in the Linux market, because by that time there won't be any other Linux players."

Do they have to take it to the point of saying 'there can be only one'? I mean that is the whole problem with MSOFT, a homogeneous market. If he stopped before the because, that would have been sufficient and appropriate, but that last bit fuels the flames of those who proclaim RH wants to be the MS of Linux. Whether or not they can is another matter, but it sounds like for this person, this is a confirmed desired path for RH's future.

Re:Aren't they humble. (0, Redundant)

houghi (78078) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715897)

As noboy seems to get any modpoints anymore I will do it this way:

+1 insightfull

(I wish I could give more then just one point)

Re:Aren't they humble. (1)

asuffield (111848) | more than 7 years ago | (#16717285)

So Linux is good, and it's *all* thanks to RedHat? No one else deserves credit.


Well, when you're only considering Redhat and Novell/SuSE, only Redhat deserves any credit. All SuSE ever did was create proprietary applications and package other people's work - this isn't a *bad* thing to be doing, but they certainly don't deserve any credit for it. They've become a little less irrelevant in recent years, but haven't done anything special in that time.

It's also true that Redhat does a lot of good work on developing essential free software (linux itself, glibc, gcc, etc) - depending on how you count, they're probably responsible for something on the order of 10% to 50% of the work on the "core" components of the system. That's far more than any other single player. It's not a *majority* of the work done (individual developers, with no particular corporate affiliation, as a group do more work than Redhat), but no other entity can claim to have done any more work than they have - which appears to be the point they're making here.

we == OSS community (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16717327)

Don't blame RedHat for identifying with OSS community. They are one of most active supporters of OSS, if not THE #1 supporter. Like their commercial activity or not, if you use Linux/OSS, you owe them a lot, their code is present in most of significant projects and tools developed in past few years.

Article content is interesting, but... (1)

BlabberMouth (672282) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715515)

what comes to my mind is another blow at Red Hat's business coming on the heels of Oracle's announcement that it would undercut Red Hat's linux support pricing. I've got three words for Red Hat stock holders, sell, sell, sell. Red Hat really needs to enter a joint venture with or sell out to nother bigger company who is or wants to get into the linux business.

Re:Article content is interesting, but... (1)

PMoonlite (11151) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715799)

Red Hat really needs to enter a joint venture with or sell out to nother bigger company who is or wants to get into the linux business.

Which bigger company would that be, exactly? And what would they get from their purchase that they don't already get from the existance of Linux and Red Hat? How would they assimilate Red Hat's radically different culture and ideology without destroying all the value they've purchased?

Please be specific. There are a very limited number of bigger tech companies with any interest in linux, so you can't apply generalizations here.

Otherwise, admit you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

RedHat sounds arrogant... (2, Interesting)

porkThreeWays (895269) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715687)

Red Hat sounds really arrogant in the article. However, much of it is basically true. I was a long time Novell/SuSe support after the acquisition. I use products from both companies on a daily basis. In the past few months I have pretty much left the suse train and jumped on the red hat one. Why? All this Oracle, Microsoft, Novell news is great for market analysts who never actually will ever use any of their products. But for someone who uses them on a daily basis, red hat's products and support are far superior.

The stock can take a major hit in the short term by this sort of news, but quality products and good management (both of which red hat has) is what will keep the company alive in the long term. One year is much too short a timeframe for all this to pan out. Three years is more realistic. Oracle linux will turn into Sun's java desktop. The Novell/MS partnership will have yielded little/no technology advances. And Novell as a company may or may not have enough steam to keep on chugging in general (non-linux related activities).

A tin-foiled hat comment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16715927)

What would prevent under-cover engineers for, say M$, to deliberately contributing poisoned code to various (key) linux/OSS projects? Why would they need Novell for that? For many projects, a frequent submitter could get their patches applied withour ever revealing more than a screen name of their real identity. //T

Debian derivatives/Ubuntu/Kubuntu (1)

b0s0z0ku (752509) | more than 7 years ago | (#16715969)

*Those* are the distros that M$ should be shitting their pants about, since they actually are competitive to Windows on the *desktop.* If anything, an Ubuntu installation is easier than a comparable Windows and MS Office install. No licensing/key crap to worry about, and (if anything) a larger selection of built-in drivers is available. My last install of Ubuntu (on my dad's computer) took about 30 min tops, start to finish. The only slightly tricky part was installing the wlan card driver - had to use ndiswrapper. But the wlan card actually works better than under Windows now - it seemed to drop connections periodically under Windows and take 30 sec. to reconnect.

-b.

RedHat, the last Linux Distro Vendor ??? LoL (1)

wizkid (13692) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716671)


So RedHat is going to be the last redhat vendor? BULLCARP!!!! I personally believe Ubuntu is in the running, and if oracle puts out a distro, they won't just put it out and forget it. IF oracle puts one out, I hope they do a better job of patching then they do with their database products!

I have influence on what products my company supports, and I've been kinda pushing that someday we should support SUSE. Well, that recommendation ended yesterday. I'm going to recommend we NOT support SUSE from now on. Anytime $M gets involved, the only one that wins is $M. SUSE has just flushed themselves down the toilet. The Lawyers at $M are drinking champaine tonight!

Better name than 'Microvell' (1)

mergy (42601) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716695)

How about 'Nosoft'

Well, now. . . (1)

Hamoohead (994058) | more than 7 years ago | (#16716921)

I can only think of one reason why Microsoft would change from their hard-tack "Open source is evil" philosophy to embracing Novell and OSS. When it comes to competing products, MS has always tried to buy, litigate, or FUD the competition. Why should this be any different? MS doesn't want to further open source any more than it wants to distribute its own source. What MS can't invent, they buy. What they can't buy, they FUD. What they fail to FUD, they disallow. I doubt they're playing fair. Remember the old saying? "DOS ain't done 'til Lotus won't run." Looks like the wolf has got a new wool cardigan.
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