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Auto Install of IE 7 Delayed In Japan

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the for-reasons dept.

201

filenavigator writes "Microsoft has delayed the automatic install of IE 7 in Japan. There's an an interesting response in one of the MSDN blogs. IT pros are saying that they have done this because business users asked it to be delayed. It seems to me many business users here in North America wanted it to be delayed as well, but were forced to scramble and deploy IE 7 blocking software. This looks like more proof that the IE 7 automatic push was more for marketing reasons, than security. If it were a security issue, than why wait on the Japanese push?" Does anyone know the 'technical' reason that the autoinstall was delayed?

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totally not front page worthy (0, Flamebait)

mack knife (96580) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720067)

Why is this on the front page? Because there may, possibly, theoretically, be some angle that makes Microsoft look bad? ZOMG!!@@!

This concerns a lot of Japanese people. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720133)

I take it you're an American, so you likely don't know where Japan is, let alone how many people live there. The July 2006 estimate from your own CIA's World Factbook is 127,463,611 [cia.gov] .

That's over 127 million people, just so you know. Of course, there are many more people around the world who have Japanese as their first or their preferred language. Many of those people are users of Windows. A large portion of those users do use Internet Explorer, and are planning on upgrading to IE7 as soon as it's possible. So of course any delays will be of great interest to them. The best thing Slashdot could do is tell the rest of the world about their plight.

Re:This concerns a lot of Japanese people. (1)

MyLongNickName (822545) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720665)

The best thing Slashdot could do is tell the rest of the world about their plight.

Errrm. There is nothing preventing them from getting IE7. It just won't be automatic. Any Japanese person can download IE 7 right now.

Re:This concerns a lot of Japanese people. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16721075)

"are planning on upgrading to IE7 as soon as it's possible"

Of course your single voice is speaking for 127E6 poeple in Japan? What's the friggen rush. It only took one forever and two eternities for IE6 to be upgraded. A few more years won't matter to IE users. It's not like anyone has not had an alternative to hold them over while waiting for this marginally more complient browser from Microsoft.

Re:totally not front page worthy (1)

pilgrim23 (716938) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720713)

Our business relys on our page. It worked fine for many functions on Firefox (and Camino), Opera, IE 6, Safari, and others. It breaks in two important aspects on IE 7. I am no html expert to know why, I just know the bill pament function ain't workin and that DOES effect business. Thanks Redmond!

Re:totally not front page worthy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16721181)

So why didn't you test with the RC and fix it?

IE7 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720069)

yeah because it took half an hour to install and then refused to work, had to revert back to IE6 :o(

Oh. My. God. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720075)

Zonk, seriously babe. You do realize that you don't have to leave the submissions in an utterly unintelligible form as submitted right?

Re:Oh. My. God. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720709)

The learning curve must'vemade you slide like an SUV in third grade. This is not illegible.

Different countries has different situations (3, Interesting)

3770 (560838) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720077)

Oh come on, it isn't always black or white.

It is very possible that Microsoft wants IE7 to be installed for security reasons, and that there are no reasons that are important enough to outweigh that in the U.S. But lets say for example, that the language support in IE7 is broken for Japanese in some weird and newly discovered way, and that a large portion of Japanese web sites don't function properly.

So, see? While the security situation is the same in all countries, other issues may not.

Re:Different countries has different situations (2, Interesting)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720175)

The "security reason" is Microsoft's financial security. Firefox is showing people that IE is one more piece of the Microsoft software stack they can do without.

Once they discover openoffice, most of them won't need Windows except as a gaming box - and the Wii looks more interesting to a lot of people.

Re:Different countries has different situations (1)

gsonic (885510) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720261)

"Once they discover openoffice, most of them won't need Windows except as a gaming box " That is such bullshit. Everybody in my office would be extremely frustrated by OpenOffice's inferiority to Microsoft Office. You can scream as loud as you want in your little care abour the supposedly superiority of "open source", it doesn't change the fact that OpenOffice today is what Microsft Office was a decade ago, at best.

Re:Different countries has different situations (1)

WilliamSChips (793741) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720379)

Office 2000 may be better than OpenOffice. But Office 2003 is such crap that OpenOffice easily beats it. Actually, I think 2000 is pretty much the best release of all Microsoft's stuff.

Re:Different countries has different situations (1)

TheSeer2 (949925) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720655)

Says he who hath an anti-microsoft sig.

Re:Different countries has different situations (1)

laffer1 (701823) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720743)

Funny, I think that Office 2003 is better than 2000 especially after supporting both. OpenOffice isn't that good, but there are only a few open source office productivity suites available. People like it because its one of the best pieces of software in that genre that is free. That does not make it good. Personally, I'd rather use Apple Pages or Mac Office 2004 for word processing than anything else. The real problem is that open office, word perfect and a slew of other apps tried to duplicate office 97 or 2000's appearance. Some suites are moving away from that, but I find it irritating. If it is going to look like office, it better damn well be identical. Every feature better act the same and be in the same place. If they can't do that, then make it feel unique. I'd rather use lotus smartsuite which looks like crap but works ok than to try to use something that is a wannabe MS product. I feel the same way about KDE although I have to say KDE works well. I also say this as someone trying to create a GNUstep based desktop system. My intention is to give it a unique gui eventually but at first it will suffer from what I described above. At least I admit I am doing a wannabe product,

Re:Different countries has different situations (1)

dfgchgfxrjtdhgh.jjhv (951946) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720997)

97 was the best release of ms office

Re:Different countries has different situations (1)

Ethan Allison (904983) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720987)

You obviously haven't seen the 2007 beta.

Re:Different countries has different situations (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720187)

A senior productive manager of Windows in Microsoft Japan clearly stated that the delay was made for the marketing reason. They got hundreds of complaints from many *corporate* customers after the push of WinXP SP2 from. Well, at least they can learn, sometimes.

For those who can read Japanese, here's the link to a related article [impress.co.jp] .

So, what you're saying is... (1)

empaler (130732) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720735)

... it was delayed to let the rest of the world test it before it was released in Japan, so as to avoid any issues occuring in the first major release version of IE7?
Makes sense if the Japanese market is so sensitive to them that they'd risk losing business customers.

Re:Different countries has different situations (1)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 7 years ago | (#16721069)

So wait, Japanese businesses complain, they get delayed. American businesses complain, they get told to go fuck themselves? Sounds like what the summary said.

Re:Different countries has different situations (1)

h4rm0ny (722443) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720205)


It's also not always Microsoft's fault. I work in the NHS an in Primary Care (GP surgeries amongst others), many places are under strict orders to block the upgrade because clinical software has been written in such a way that it works only with IE6. And there is also the issue that vital software hasn't passed conformence testing with the new version, yet.

It's pretty piss poor that the third party software is so non-standards compliant that this is the case, but, and I say this as someone without a Windows machine in her house, it's hardly Microsoft's fault.

Are they just trying shit stir with this story or what?

Re:Different countries has different situations (1)

potHead42 (188922) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720399)

It's also not always Microsoft's fault. I work in the NHS an in Primary Care (GP surgeries amongst others), many places are under strict orders to block the upgrade because clinical software has been written in such a way that it works only with IE6. And there is also the issue that vital software hasn't passed conformence testing with the new version, yet.
Wait a minute... clinical software written for IE6? It already scares me when I hear about critical stuff running on Windows, but this is absolutely horrible! Please tell me at least the backend runs on something more trustworthy...

Re:Different countries has different situations (1)

kryten_nl (863119) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720633)

Please tell me at least the backend runs on something more trustworthy...

The thoroughly tested Window 95. Does that put your mind at ease?

Re:Different countries has different situations (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720793)

I worked in an NHS IT department. Patient data was handled over non-encrypted browser sessions to backend systems written in ASP VB with gaping sql injection mechanisms. We also had a wireless lan with no WEP on it. I brought these to the IT head's attention. I don't work there any more. The network manager who put in the wireless does, as does the guy who coded the web applications. Go figure.

Re:Different countries has different situations (1)

alchemy101 (961551) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720375)

I too thought it might have been a language support problem. It could be perhaps a documentation problem?

Re:Different countries has different situations (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720657)

"It is very possible that Microsoft wants IE7 to be installed for security reasons, and that there are no reasons that are important enough to outweigh that in the U.S. But lets say for example, that the language support in IE7 is broken for Japanese in some weird and newly discovered way, and that a large portion of Japanese web sites don't function properly."

You're going on faith there as nothing is proven.

There were WMDs in Iraq so we had to go in, honest guv! ;)

Same logic.

BSD v. GPL: The Fundamental Difference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720859)

BSD: "I don't like telling other people what to do, so I won't."
GPL: "I don't like people telling other people what to do, so I'll tell them exactly what they can and can't tell other people to do."

Fuck that hypocritical bullshit. Intelligence is GPL-incompatible. Use BSD instead; abandon self, and you shall achieve nirvana.

First post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720079)

First post muthafuckers !@1!!!!!!!!!

Re:First post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720129)

Maybe you meant: First Muthafuckers' post!

Oh, man, you fail it (0, Offtopic)

empaler (130732) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720773)

Yup=teh sukc.
Besides, first post is no excuse for not getting laid nor not having a job.

Automatic installation of a different browser? (1)

marcello_dl (667940) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720081)

Wait a minute, is ie7 100% backwards compatible with ie6? I seem to recall it isn't. Then, how can Microsoft push it in updates? what about people relaying on the browser for intranet web apps that can break?

Re:Automatic installation of a different browser? (3, Funny)

York the Mysterious (556824) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720165)

It's not backwards compatible and this breaks a lot of Intranet sites. My Univerity (shitty Humboldt State University in CA) uses a system (being phases out) called Banner for managing class registration, payments and just about everything else you could imagine. There's been lots of problems in the latest and greatest banner with IE 7. It's going to be very interesting to see if these problems cause any large scale issues come registration time. There's also been issues with Universities not using the latest and greatest version of Cisco's Clean Access network management software. Any student with IE 7 installed are unable to gain access to the Internet at school's employing those version of Clean Access. That's been lots of fun as admins at those schools are creating exceptions left and right and at this point are probably just turning Clean Access off until they can deploy the latest version. Wells Fargo isn't working with IE 7. I had a wonderful conversation with a buddy of mine that works at their online banking call center. She wants to kill Microsoft right now. There are plenty of problems all over the place.

Re:Automatic installation of a different browser? (1)

MustardMan (52102) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720273)

Lots and lots of colleges use banner to manage all things electronic... this is the first time I've heard about it breaking in IE7, but I haven't really followed it. At my undergrad school, banner did a pretty good job of breaking all by itself, no matter what browser you used.

Re:Automatic installation of a different browser? (1)

marcello_dl (667940) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720407)

Well this is exactly the problem. Even well done web apps can misbehave with a new version of an incompatible browser. So what about those sticking to poorly coded ones?

Re:Automatic installation of a different browser? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720355)

You blame Microsoft for upgrading their browser, but the reason that the sites are breaking is because IE7 is much more standards compliant. Developers all over (including myself) rant on endlessly about IE6's horrid standards compliance, and I for one am happy to know that the work I put into making all sites I worked on function in *all* browsers has paid off. Anyone who was still building exclusively for IE6 in the last couple of years will now have to pay for their foolish and shortsighted mistake. If the site doesn't work in IE7, does it work in FireFox, Opera or any remotely standards compliant browser?

Plus, wouldn't you rather see users forced to upgrade to a more standards compliant browser so that developers can almost immediately move away from having to put large ammounts of support for IE6 in their code?

I hate to be a jerk at this point... (1)

tkrotchko (124118) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720751)

But if people hadn't coded their web sites so closely to IE5/6 then they probably wouldn't have a problem with IE7. I mean, it would probably take a little longer to make it work with Firefox and IE, but the result is they aren't tied to a single vendor's implementation.

But that's the past. Will the people who got so burned by this learn their lesson and make their sites cross browser compatible? Or will they repeat the same mistake except with IE7?

Something to think about, anyway.

Re:Automatic installation of a different browser? (1)

goofyheadedpunk (807517) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720841)

> She wants to kill Microsoft right now.

Microsoft probably did this just to fuck with your friend's mind. She is a most powerful Admin, after all.

SCENE: Your friend and Microsoft are standing in Microsoft's office. Your friend has her light saber drawn in an offensive stance while Microsoft stands rather tensly in front of your friend. Microsoft's fear is carefully hidden. Its back is to your friend.

WF_ADMIN: I won't be a pawn in your political game. Wells Fargo is my family.

MICROSOFT: Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Admin. Learn to know the dark side of the Source, Admin, and you will be able to save your banking application from certain death.

WF_ADMIN: What did you say?

MICROSOFT: Use my browser, I beg you . . .

WF_ADMIN: You're a convicted monopilist!

MICROSOFT: I know what has been troubling you . . . Listen to me. Don't continue to be a pawn of Wells Fargo! Ever since I've known you, you've been searching for a life greater than that of an ordinary Admin . . . a life of significance, of conscience.

WF_ADMIN: You're wrong!

MICROSOFT: Are you going to kill me?

WF_ADMIN: I would certainly like to.

MICROSOFT: I know you would. I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger.

(In case anyone is curious, no, I didn't need to look up the script. Yes, it's sick. And, yes, I know that Anakin ignites his saber after "You're a Sith Lord!", not before. Yes, that's sick too.)

Re:Automatic installation of a different browser? (1)

k12linux (627320) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720471)

Our accounting software vendor warned us last month that we had to block IE7 because the web interface to accounts (which is heavily used here) breaks utterly even though they use MS libraries and components to make it from what I understand.

Re:Automatic installation of a different browser? (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 7 years ago | (#16721095)

> ...breaks utterly even though they use MS libraries and components to make it
> from...

"Even though"? You write that as if you are suprised.

Re:Automatic installation of a different browser? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720613)

Latrobe University in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia issued an email to all 12,000 of its students telling them NOT to install the latest IE7 because their website wouldn't be compatable with it.

There's a bazillion reasons why IE7 is pushed (1)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720091)

Yes, marketting is one of the reasons. Security is however, another one (is the browser perfect? HELL NO! Is it better than IE6? HELL YEAH). The main one, in my opinion, is to get rid of IE6 as quickly as humanly possible. And this, the slashdot crowd, especialy the ones who do commercial web design, should appreciate it. Freagin FUD. Yes, Microsoft is evil blah blah blah: Doesn't change anything. The internet will benifit from being rid of IE6, even if it means another IE replacing it.

Re:There's a bazillion reasons why IE7 is pushed (1)

jlarocco (851450) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720393)

I don't see the point. I don't do web development, but I have heard the new IE is just about as bad as the old IE when it comes to standards compliance. It's just bad in different ways. So won't web developers have to throw away tons of information on IE6 incompatibility, just to figure it out all over again for IE7? Sounds like a lot of wasted time.

If security is really the issue, shouldn't they remove IE altogether?

Re:There's a bazillion reasons why IE7 is pushed (1)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720467)

IE7, while still crap, is lighyears better than IE6 when it comes to standards. I have done a few things on IE7, which I tend opened in Firefox, and often it worked on first try. Sometimes I had 1-2 things to fix. Its not -perfect-, but it can literally slash in half the time it takes to make things cross-browser, if you work in a world without IE6. Also while IE7 isn't perfectly secure, it is still a lot more, and on Vista, it is sandboxed (so again, not perfect, but easily an order of magnitude more secure than IE6, or IE7 on XP). So it is a required upgrade, unless you figure out a way to move everyone to Firefox tomorrow

All the issues people are having are bad. But if an application is made IE6 only, what do you think is harder? Fixing it to work in IE7, or fixing it to work in Firefox? If these people are freaking out over IE7, its gonna take them decades to fix their apps for a true compliant browser... This was needed.

Re:There's a bazillion reasons why IE7 is pushed (1)

mattpointblank (936343) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720739)

How do you literally slash time in half? Quantum physicists would like to know.

Re:There's a bazillion reasons why IE7 is pushed (1)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720763)

Its an feature in Windows Vista. All programs => Accessories => Accessibility => Time Manipulation

someone give him a one (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720871)

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

short, but teh funnee!

Now I have to trawl the repos looking for the linux equivalent!

Re:There's a bazillion reasons why IE7 is pushed (1)

jlarocco (851450) | more than 7 years ago | (#16721183)

So it is a required upgrade, unless you figure out a way to move everyone to Firefox tomorrow

Why don't people just use this as an opportunity to switch to Firefox or Opera? If a whole bunch of sites are already breaking with IE7, why not just go all the way for full standards compliance? Don't most people make sites that work in Firefox/Opera and validate, then hack them for IE?

All the issues people are having are bad. But if an application is made IE6 only, what do you think is harder? Fixing it to work in IE7, or fixing it to work in Firefox? If these people are freaking out over IE7, its gonna take them decades to fix their apps for a true compliant browser... This was needed.

If I had to guess, I would say going from IE6 to IE7 would be harder than IE6 to something standards compliant. The web standards are fairly well documented by w3c. The bugs and incompatibilites in IE7 are not.

Re:There's a bazillion reasons why IE7 is pushed (1)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16721289)

Don't most people make sites that work in Firefox/Opera and validate, then hack them for IE?
The peanut gallery in their spare times do. A -couple- of significant companies. Go on any mainstream web site, and right click and look at the source. Its about 50/50, give or take. Last I checked, Google didn't even have a freagin doctype.

If I had to guess, I would say going from IE6 to IE7 would be harder than IE6 to something standards compliant. The web standards are fairly well documented by w3c. The bugs and incompatibilites in IE7 are not
Actualy, Microsoft is fairly decent at documenting that stuff. My point though, is if you have a 600+ individual pages made for IE, or you are using the MSHTML rendering engine (a LOT of applications do that you wouldn't expect to use anything like that), fixing a few things for IE7 (which is probably just switching a doctype, and a couple of fixes... over 600 pages its significant, but its still better than nothing) is a lot easier than moving everything to standard compliance. I expected the hit, so as much as I could, I kept my code (even in IE-only apps) relatively close to standard, so fixing things for Firefox was a matter of changing a few shared javascript functions, and a bit of CSS in specific sections. Same with IE7, so I was ok. Some companies have millions of lines of old HTML/CSS to fix... moving it to IE7 is a lot easier, trust me.
Why don't people just use this as an opportunity to switch to Firefox or Opera
Time and ressource restrictions (and in some cases, lack of knowledge)

No I don't! (5, Funny)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720107)

Does anyone know the 'technical' reason that the autoinstall was delayed?

Answer: No I don't!

Disclaimer: I do not know what I am talking about.

Easy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720123)

"Does anyone know the 'technical' reason that the autoinstall was delayed?"

Moderate this post as Flamebait.

It's a display problem. (0, Troll)

Fonce (635723) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720149)

Easy. Being the Japanese version, people could only see a small, horizontal cross-section of all pages until Microsoft could put out a patch to enlarge the eyeslits.

Am I going to hell now?

Re:It's a display problem. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720217)

LMFAO!!! Please mod parent up!! firefox has released rubberbands to counter Microsoft's patch.

Re:It's a display problem. (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720233)

Am I going to hell now?

Dude, pay attention, you've been there for years already. Didn't you get the memo? Now, about those TPS reports. . .

KFG

Re:It's a display problem. (1)

Fonce (635723) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720505)

I've got my copy of it right here and I already fixed the one that got sent out, so it's not even really a problem anymore.

Re:It's a display problem. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720531)

Am I going to hell now?


Yes, I hope so.

Re:It's a display problem. (1)

stu42j (304634) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720807)

If you are going to be offensive, at least be funny too.

Because in .jp, Apple has its largest marketshare (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720195)

Hence all the fiber got teh AIDS.

This didn't happen overnight! (3, Informative)

im_thatoneguy (819432) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720201)

Microsoft has been pushing IE7, even while it was in beta. It's not like these IT managers just heard about it a couple of weeks ago. They've had months to ensure and prepare for its release.

Re:This didn't happen overnight! (2, Insightful)

noctrl (452600) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720353)

yes, it did not :)

We got the message Thursday from two of our application providers;
"IE7 will not work, please wait for fix from us!"

Things like this use quite a bit of time to go thru the system.

Re:This didn't happen overnight! (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 7 years ago | (#16721123)

So it was your application providers that were asleep. And, of course, you had no reason at all to test the apps yourselves.

Why not just use Firefox? (1)

mattbode (827019) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720211)

You could all join the people who don't care about IE and install Firefox.

Re:Why not just use Firefox? (1)

k12linux (627320) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720517)

If so many interactive intranet app developers didn't use activex controls, MS tools and MS libraries that only work with IE then more would. We have FF installed and set as the default browser throughout our organization and almost all Internet sites our users need work just fine. A few do not. Our 2nd most used intranet app, however, only works with IE. (And not with IE 7)

Delayed scheduling? (1)

aitsu (592587) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720225)

Not sure why but last time I checked (which was some time last week), the Japanese version was only available as an RC. Just checked again now and noticed that the final version's available. So anyway it looks to me like the release schedule for the Japanese version is a couple of weeks behind that of the English version.

It's not a coincidence.. (3, Insightful)

aero2600-5 (797736) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720255)

From what I understand, IE7 is being removed from corporate systems just as quickly as it's being installed. IE7 is breaking applications left and right. Macromedia's Dreamweaver won't operate properly if IE7 is installed on the same computer. There are other applications as well. Payroll software, punch clock software, etc.. It's apparently breaking all sorts of things.

At my friend's company, there was a corporate wide memo stating that no one was to install IE7 except the "new media" departments, because they do all the website work and need to be able to test how IE7 slaughters their HTML and CSS. Even the new media departments were told to install "At your own risk".

I don't think it's too far fetched to believe that the Japanese market caught word of how IE7 is breaking all sorts of other software and asked Microsoft not to push it. I think the response in the IE blog is bullshit. The Japanese don't want IE7. Not if it's going to break everything.

Aero

Re:It's not a coincidence.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720285)

Macromedia's Dreamweaver....
That's Adobe's Dreamweaver, you insensitive clod!

Re:It's not a coincidence.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720397)

Tried it on a couple of new builds at work. Wouldn't let me load Outlook 98 with IE7 installed, another example of Microsoft forcing us all to upgrade?

Re:It's not a coincidence.. (4, Insightful)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720425)

Its kind of funny. Usualy we hear about how its the developer's fault that they are writting "non-standard compliant" code, and that they deserve what they get if it breaks in Firefox, or whatever... Now though, since code break because the code isn't standard compliant enough (while IE7 isn't very good still, it does a much better job rendering standard CSS than it does randering IE6 targetted crap) in a microsoft browser, its Microsoft thats evil :)

A lot of the software that are breaking which are not related to web, however, do so because of their use of the MSHTML rendering engine... In a -lot- of cases, just changing the doctype tend to make things -relatively- OK. For the rest...well, IE7 has been in beta and RC for how long now? I know that IT stuff doesn't happen overnight, but Microsoft gave as much warning as they possibly could. If stuff broke (and I'm guilty of that, some web apps I wrote did break, and I didn't take time to test it in IE7), its the developer's own damn fault. They had like a year or something. Jesus...

Re:It's not a coincidence.. (2)

wycats (956943) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720443)

IE7 does *not* slaughter HTML and CSS. It breaks hacks that worked in IE6 because of unimplemented features there (or just plain bugs in IE6). Anyone who wrote HTML and CSS in standards-compliant ways, and worked around IE6 with conditional comments (and *not* by using hacks) will find their pages working smoothly. There's a substantial *improvement* in CSS support, but it's obviously not 100%.

Re:It's not a coincidence.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720497)

Yeah, it's broken several things here too. I know it breaks some AutoCAD related soft, and my DB2 installer stopped working after installing IE7. And it's not exactly totally secured/bugfixed yet (too early for me to consdier deploying it). And the GUI is weird (menu bar below address bar by default?), is a far heavier on resources, needs WGA installed on all your desktops across your corporate LAN to install (scary thought). It breaks more things than it fixes, only to bring tabbed browsing. Hell, it shouldn't be on auto-update ANYWHERE!

And the IE blog responses aren't too bad, except for that one noisy Japanese guy that just can't shut up. Like the world's coming to an end, how they're teh racist and driving asia's entire economy right into the ground, because some existing and unnecessary update isn't on auto-update. Doesn't matter that they already have a working browser, that they can download the updated version manually, or a variety of other browsers that support various languages. What a fucking idiot!

Re:It's not a coincidence.. (1)

bcrowell (177657) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720901)

At my friend's company, there was a corporate wide memo stating that no one was to install IE7 except the "new media" departments, because they do all the website work and need to be able to test how IE7 slaughters their HTML and CSS.
IE6 has horrible CSS support. IE7 has pretty decent CSS support. If someone's coded their site so it doesn't work with a browser that implements CSS in a standard way, then they're idiots for doing that, and they've already got problems with any customer-facing stuff, because they're turning away customers who use Firefox.

Last I heard, everyone on Slashdot was screaming bloody murder because IE7's CSS implementation didn't pass the Acid 2 test. Now we're upset because it implements the CSS standard better than IE 6 did?

Re:It's not a coincidence.. (1)

Lewisham (239493) | more than 7 years ago | (#16721083)

You have this the wrong way round. IE 7 has actually gotten better at rendering. Its breaking things because the dodgy hacks that had to be put into code to get it working right with IE 6 (rightly) no longer work.

We've had a couple of things "break" in our office, and had the webmaster go through the old code. I stopped counting the times I heard him tell people on the telephone "well, yes, it shouldn't have worked in the first place."

Microsoft got themselves into this hole, and now they are realising that IE 7 needs to dig itself out from the problems they caused.

Who backs business in the US (1)

Archfeld (6757) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720347)

besides business ? In japan the government and the mega-corps speak as one generally. For good or bad, this lends weight to their demands.

other countries (1)

Verunks (1000826) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720383)

also here in italy microsoft didn't put ie7 on windows update for what i can see

Are You Kidding Me (3, Insightful)

wycats (956943) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720403)

For crying out loud, this is the sort of thing that really bugs me. I was recently asked, publicly, what my #1 web development annoyance is. I answered IE6. So I don't have any love for Microsoft. I also own a Mac Pro and a Macbook. So I've spent good money on Apple. And I like my machines. But there's a seriously painful double standard here:
  • Every incremental feature update of OSX costs $130. Incremental feature updates to Windows are free (by incremental, I mean ones where the underlying OS is the same, but features are added. Think OSX and Windows XP)
  • Firefox has an automatic push feature that automatically downloads and offers to install the new version of FF. So does IE.
  • You can only install OSX on Apple hardware. Any licensing restrictions on the use of Windows causes a serious outcry here.
  • Steve Jobs has openly said his iPod marketing strategy involves building iPods in such a way that forces users to buy new ones every year. Imagine if Microsoft said something similar about Windows (never mind that there *is* a new version of OSX that you have to buy every year or so if you want the newest features)
  • Firefox recently got into a licensing dispute with a Linux vendor who wanted to use its name but not its logo. Firefox legally blocked them (relatively minor, but still)
  • The bottom line is that lately, MS has been behaving fairly well. I think that's clear. They've executed legally binding agreements not to sue based on certain patents it holds, implemented very impressive CSS improvements to IE, and brought the Firefox crew over to Vista headquarters to help them make the transition to Vista. We should step back for just a bit and let Microsoft get IE7 and Vista out. Quite frankly, the day IE7 kills IE6, I will be a very happy person. And so will many, many web developers. The "push" is actually a pretty good thing, in the end. Until the day that I start seeing people attacking Apple for Jobs' "reality distortion field" and practices that sometimes closely mirror the actions of Microsoft, I'll look dubiously at posts like this. Frankly, I'm getting tired of them.

Re:Are You Kidding Me (1)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720551)

Finally, I'm not alone feeling that way.

Very, very well said... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720557)

no text

Slashdot in 10 easy steps (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720579)

You're new here, aren't you?

There are no "double standards" here, just a few simple rules to follow, so that we may all enjoy /. in heterogenous bliss:

1. OSS good
2. Proprietary bad
3. Google good
4. Apple very good
5. Sony bad
6. Microsoft very bad
7. If you disagree with what I post, you're a troll (regardless of what recreational substances I was using while writing the post)
8. If someone interprets something MS or Sony did in the worst possible light, and you disagree, you're astroturfing
9. Bill Gates drinks the blood of puppies to ease the pain of bluescreens
10. Steve Jobs is either a design genius or a cult leader; pick one. If the latter, unless you own a Mac or an ipod you're a troll

See? it's not so hard.

Re:Slashdot in 10 easy steps (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720867)

But, if you say "I know I'm going to get modded down for this", no matter how pro-Microsoft or anti-Slashdot you are, you get modded insightful. Problem solved.

Re:Are You Kidding Me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720661)

Every incremental feature update of OSX costs $130. Incremental feature updates to Windows are free (by incremental, I mean ones where the underlying OS is the same, but features are added. Think OSX and Windows XP)

When's the last time an incremental upgrade of Windows actually added new features?

Firefox has an automatic push feature that automatically downloads and offers to install the new version of FF. So does IE.

Firefox upgrades don't break things. Here's where not having the browser integrated into the OS is a good thing.

Personally, I'm not too concerned with this whole upgrade mess because anything that relies on IE6 is already broken in my book. And I couldn't care less about what happens with Mac/iPod users -- you can work that out with Apple.

Re:Are You Kidding Me (1)

DannyO152 (544940) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720679)

But IE6 won't be killed. It's going to be around as long as people are using Windows 2000, at least.

I have no point of view about automatic updates and Microsoft vs. Firefox, except, I really suspect that the Mozilla/Firefox api is far more orthogonal to customers' systems and applications than IE. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, if I'm not, it's because Microsoft chose for it to be that way and therefore does have more responsibility for thinking twice before pushing something down the line.

As for the Microsoft-Novell thing, it sure looks to me like Microsoft is tossing a skunk into the room; time will tell.

As for OS X upgrades, I haven't spent the $130 (it's more because I get the family license) since April 05 and I'm guessing there's another 4 months before Leopard ships, which means I've had two years to save the $130.00. I also think that "Microsoft updates for free" is a classic false economy. I'm also used to the concept that higher quality tools require higher investments for maintenance.

Re:Are You Kidding Me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720789)

I've used XulRunner to deploy applications before. It allows you to install a separate, application-specific version of XulRunner, which you can deploy on pretty much any version of Windows, with any version (or no version) of Internet Explorer, and get consistent behaviour. And on Linux and MacOS X, of course.

When they get around to doing a formal release (with the XulRunner-based Firefox 3 and Thunderbird 3), XulRunner will still allow applications to select which version of the Gecko engine they want to use if they're using the system-installed XulRunner. So if your app is tested against one version of XulRunner, it'll continue using that one version of XulRunner.

The upshot is that upgrading the browser can not interfere with third-party applications, even if they make huge changes that totally break backwards compatibility. The app is independent of the system.

That's not the case with Microsoft's MSHTML engine, or HTA applications. You need to test those on just about every possible combination of Windows and Internet Explorer. If you want to support back to Windows 98 with IE 5, you need to test on Windows 98 with IE 5.0, IE 5.5, IE 6.0, Windows ME with IE 5.5, IE 6.0, Windows 2000 with IE 5.5, IE 6.0, Windows XP with IE 6.0, IE 6.0 SP2, and now IE 7.0. Considering the number of applications that use the MSHTML engine, it should be obvious how much of a disruption upgrading to IE 7 can be.

And that's not counting all the IE-only intranet apps out there.

Re:Are You Kidding Me (2, Insightful)

mr_matticus (928346) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720949)

If it's an incremental update (your first contention), then your fourth contention is in direct opposition--incremental updates don't proffer "new features." With the exception of Windows SP2, when was the last "free" update to Windows known to provide new features and critical technologies? SP1? SP1a? W2K SP3? None of these are equivalent to new iterations of OS X.

Compare Apple's update cycle to Microsoft's, prior to their "we're done with Windows!" release of XP. You had Windows 95B, Windows 98, Windows 98SE, Windows ME, Windows 2000, and Windows XP all released (for pay) in a roughly four year period (early 1997 to October 2001). Since 2002, there have been 3 updates to OS X for pay. I don't know about you, but the jump from 10.2 to 10.4 seems much more worthwhile than the jump from Windows 98 to ME (ME's atrocious quality and reliability notwithstanding).

Apple provides free updates to their OS, too--several of them, much more rapidly than Microsoft offers service packs, but more slowly than MS security fixes. Will XP SP3 introduce new applications and important features useful for developers or users? I wouldn't count on it.

I can tell you why (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720409)

because IE6 is such a cluster fuck that any business applications specifically developed for it fall over flat on their face under IE7 because of all the IE6 specific work-arounds they had to use. Lock-ins a bitch and gives as well has it takes. Fuck Microsoft, Fuck IE. Firefox/Mozilla Rule!

WSUS? (1)

insomniac8400 (590226) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720441)

Businesses should be using WSUS, so why do they need a tool to block it?

Not newsworthy (1)

Werrismys (764601) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720465)

IE7 is M$ and Winblows-only, so it is not newsworthy at all. It only runs on crap spamstations.

Endusers (1)

WiFireWire (772717) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720527)

We blocked the auto-install on our school district simply because the security in IE7 is much too complicated for our typical end users to deal with(teschers, principals, etc) All of the web-based applications that we use simply DO NOT work out of the box....significant security modifications are needed just to make the apps function. Our standpoint was a training standpoint. Once the training and testing is done WE will control the deployment of IE7, not microsoft.

Re:Endusers (1)

empaler (130732) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720853)

Congratulations, you've made one of the most intelligent and relevant posts in the debate so far.

Microsoft made available tools to control the deployment of IE7 (of course, up to a certain date, then you will be forced AFAIR), which should have been used by the server admins in businesses (schools count as a business here) where such a change could negatively affect productivity.
Good sysadmins test and test and test. Also, as you mention, the users are used to the old software; the new software is very different and they should be prepared for it.
I remember my IT teachers in high school teaching extremely basic computer stuff by reading aloud from presentations prepared or purchased for them.
It's not because these people are stupid, it is because this is not their field. To them, computers are a tool.
Bleh. This became a bit ranting, sorry for that.

2 cents from the online media camp (1)

IronChefMorimoto (691038) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720583)

I would bet that there were things in Japanese sites (CSS?) that would've been broken, perhaps?

The fact of the matter is, when IE7 came out here in the US (still haven't seen an AUTO INSTALL on WinXP SP2 on my home machine?!), the newspaper company I work for scrambled to fix all of its sites to handle some odd CSS issues in IE7 that had been resolved in IE6. Web-based admin tools that our newspapers use, as well as the newspaper websites themselves, had to be examined from front to back to make sure that IE7 didn't break anything.

I know that the easiest fix for some of our tools was switching over the method for AJAX. I think IE7 became MORE standards compliant in that regard? However, lots of CSS nav had to be re-worked on websites for things like pulldown menus and such. Advertising as well.

This is just my company's single experience with the release of IE7. I can imagine that, in Japan or any other country faced with an auto-install of IE7 that could affect a large percentage of the browsing public, there would be some concerns about the impact of the web browser coming out automatically.

I want to say, too, that my company was well prepared for IE7 -- we learned of the MSDN blog entries that announced the mid-October release and set up 2-3 task forces to manage issues. So far, it's been smooth. But that preparation time was important. I'd suspect the situation would be the same in Japan.

My 2 cents...

IronChefMorimoto

Knowing Japan.. (1)

musakko (739094) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720609)

I don't know the specific technical reasons why IE7 has been delayed in Japan, but I have worked in Japan and with Japanese clients in the IT industry for 12 years and I can tell you that while American and western users might like to think that they hold high standards for software quality, that is NOTHING compared to what Japanese companies and users expect. There is a tradition of service (at ridiculuos cost to the provider). If I was running a software company, I'd outsource all the QA work to Japan. That's how thorough and picky they are about small issues. I wouldn't be surprised if some IE7 issues which US and other users complained about but were basically willing to let go weren't raised as a red-flag-production-down-critical in the Japan and that was the reason for the delay.

Re:Knowing Japan.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16720819)

at ridiculuos cost to the provider


I wouldn't..that's a pretty large caveat if you don't have to (unless you're selling to Japan).

That's why I like Nintendo (1)

empaler (130732) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720885)

Stuff that comes from Nintendo just works.
Granted, some of the games are a bit weird [nintendogs.com] , but they are very good at what they do.
They must be insanely hard on the programmers every time they get an bug report from the QA team (No sleep for a month to you!) because there are so few glitches.
I was moderately surprised to find out that the Wii was going to be firmware upgradable because I did not expect it to be necessary at any point.

PC Relocator by AlohaBob. Au Revoir Bob by Microso (1)

Jon-Paul R (1022859) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720621)

I've been using PC Relocator 6 (which use to be by Aloha Bob) for almost 2 years now. It's a great program that has allowed my clients to move from one old PC to another new faster PC when the time comes. PC Relocator allows me to transfer their files, settings and programs almost flawlessly. It's been a life and business savior for many of my people. I was at a customer this week that needed to get a new PC. I went to the Aloha Bob website to see if there was some information on how to tansfer a certain type of program. Upon going there, the site was.... useless. MICROSOFT BOUGHT THEM! Here's what Microsoft said, "Microsoft's acquisition of Apptimum, Inc. will not result in significant changes for current customers of Alohabob products. Customers will continue to receive the product support they were entitled to, and there have been no changes to the support policy. Customers should continue to contact support in the same ways they are accustomed to, by following the links provided on this website. Microsoft does not plan to continue selling the existing Apptimum products." NO CHANGES MY ASS! I knew they were up to something right then and there the moment I read that. Microsoft doesn't by a company like that for no reason.... After installing all the latest Windows updates, I tried to move only a few programs from the users computer to the new system. GUESS WHAT. PC Relocator was USELESS. It could not function because it did not recognize the latest version of IE (Internet Explorer 7) and guess what, Microsoft has killed the product. There are no new updates ever coming out and no new versions. Au Revoir Bob. :-( Jon-Paul R Inventor: www.wintiles.com Musician: www.smoothjazzfusion.com

Yes. Because it doesnt work on Japanese system (1)

Riquez (917372) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720671)

I installed IE7 on it's day of release on a Japanese PC in our office. The Laptop was out of the box & only a few days old - not even in use by anyone.
Anyway, the result was that IE7 froze & lockedup the PC into 100% CPU useage.
Over the past few weeks I was surprised not to hear others with this issue, so I began to assume it must be a incompatibility with the Japanese language version of Windows. From the topic of this item, looks like that could be right.

digging a grave ? (1)

Tom (822) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720829)

I wonder if this is MS digging the grave of IE.

Look, IE7 is largely incompatible with IE6. So lots of websites will have to be redesigned now. If they have to be reworked anyways, you can do it with proper HTML and CSS support, getting rid of the proprietary IE crap. Which means Firefox, Opera, etc. will work just as well.

This is NOT an auto-install (1)

ThinkFr33ly (902481) | more than 7 years ago | (#16720953)

Just to be clear, Microsoft is NOT automatically installing IE 7 on people's machines.

The "critical" Windows update is simply an installer shim which first prompts the user [msdn.com] and asks if they want to install IE 7. They can say yes, no, or not now (remind me later.)

Re:This is NOT an auto-install (1)

Oswald (235719) | more than 7 years ago | (#16721051)

Well that answers the burning question "Why do I still have IE 6 even though I have auto-update running on my WinXP boxes?" I was starting to feel left out.

I wonder if this was just Slash-hysteria all along, or if MS changed their minds about how to handle the updates. I guess if I'd bothered to read the articles when this story first came out I might know.

Re:This is NOT an auto-install (1)

ThinkFr33ly (902481) | more than 7 years ago | (#16721203)

This has always been the plan. Since Microsoft first announced they would distribute IE7 via Windows Update they have consistently maintained it would be optional and would always ask the user for permission.

Like many other Microsoft-related stories, the Slashdot crowd tends to prefer making up their own facts and ignoring reality if that reality happens to show Microsoft in a less than satanic light.

HP... (1)

MindDelay (675385) | more than 7 years ago | (#16721061)

i know the IE7 push is causing problems with some HP software now. i wouldn't be surprised if it's causing problems with lots of other company's software too and people are getting fed up. i hope they stop this autopush or whatever. would make my life easier for the time being.

The great part of IE7 (1)

RzUpAnmsCwrds (262647) | more than 7 years ago | (#16721155)

The best feature of IE7 is that it makes it easier to use Firefox. No, really. With IE7 installed, when you enter a URL into a Windows Explorer windows (as I frequently did as a mattter of habit when I was using IE6), it launches the default browser (Firefox in my case). With IE6, it just turns the Explorer window into an IE window - convenient, but a pain in the neck when you realize that you've been using IE.

seriously (1)

minus_273 (174041) | more than 7 years ago | (#16721247)

IE 7 IS better than IE 6. That alone makes it a security update. If it were named ie 6.x with tabs, better security and standards, you wouldnt see this article at all. this is the same as XP SP2 being delayed in some environments for testing.
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