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IT Worker Shortages Everywhere

kdawson posted more than 7 years ago | from the when-i-grow-up-i-wanna-write-programs dept.

480

Vicissidude writes with news from the IT front in India: "The software industry body Nasscom has warned that India faces a shortfall of half a million skilled workers by 2010. The country will need 350,000 engineers a year, but no more than 150,000 of the most highly skilled engineers will be available each year." This shortfall is fueling a new development, the exporting of Indian tech jobs to the US. But will there be workers in the US to do those jobs? Reader Jadeite2 writes with a word from Bill Gates, speaking to a business forum in Moscow, who said: "There is a shortage of IT skills on a worldwide basis. Anybody who can get those skills here now will have a lot of opportunity."

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Those of us who supported outsourcing... (4, Interesting)

geoffrobinson (109879) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755839)

or at least the freedom to outsource were confident that, ultimately, outsourcing would be a net benefit for everyone. For India and for America.

This seems to be confirmation of that.

Re:Those of us who supported outsourcing... (4, Informative)

rovingeyes (575063) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755927)

I have a friend who works in Google India. And when I asked about this new phenomenon, he said that there is no shortage of applicants, but there is a shortage of "qualified" applicants. For every software engineering position they anounce, thousands of resumes are received, but none of them meet their requirements. So this shortage is not some random IT position but very specific skilled positions that the Indian tech populace is unable to fill.

Define qualified (5, Insightful)

plopez (54068) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755979)

In the US the phrase 'lack of qualified applicants' came to mean 'lack of qualified applicants who were willing to work for what we were willing to pay.'

Large difference.

Re:Define qualified (5, Insightful)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756237)

Considering some of the wildly inflated salary demands I've heard from people in relation to their actual deomonstrated ability, I'd say adjustments need to be made on both sides.

Re:Define qualified (2, Insightful)

Panaflex (13191) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756693)

Google has a strange hiring practice - they purposfully set the bar higher than the position may actually require - and that's going to be more expensive overall.

They require many interviews to prove your capacity - and honestly a lot of professionals with many years of experience aren't going to go for that if there are other good paying jobs available. Me included.

Re: "Qualified" applicants (5, Insightful)

greyparrot (895758) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756179)

Because employers (not just in India) have no long-term commitment to the employees, and thus the employees have no reason for loyalty, the employer searches for a fully mature and qualified employee, able to perform instantly (in the current quarter) to satisfy the current requirement.

This used to require a consultant. But no, consultants are too expensive. Besides, with the falling apart of the markets, consultants have gone into other lines of work.

What's left? Dragging a net through the pool of recent graduates who studied CS, fewer every year as their older siblings tell them it's a lousy market out there.

My heart cries for you!

Re:Those of us who supported outsourcing... (1)

Fezmid (774255) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756057)

My theory (which may or may not be correct) is that a lot of people dropped out of IT because of the outsourcing. I seem to recall reading several /. articles stating that enrollment in IT classes was dropping rapidly, and that's to be expected if people think all the good jobs are going overseas.

Now that overseas is running out of qualified applicants, they're trying to come back to the States, but the pool here has been drying up.

That's my take on it; could be wrong though.

Re:Those of us who supported outsourcing... (1)

creimer (824291) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756577)

What I noticed over the years in Silicon Valley is that a lot of students are stampeding out of I.T. into health care since that's supposed to be the hot money-making industry. I think that trend is starting to reverse itself now as I'm seeing more students. Which is good since I been waiting several years to complete my programming associate degree; I'm two advance classes short and those kept getting canceled due to low enrollment.

Re:Those of us who supported outsourcing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756397)

Well, confirmation that the employment situation is improving, anyways. India and China are not "outsourcing" to the US, they are expanding into the US market. Unlike when American companies laid off thousands to outsource their jobs overseas, no Indian or Chinese person is losing their job to an American.

I guess in the end whether this is a "good thing" depends on if you actually care what country's businesses come out on top, and how long it'll take the US Govt to start taxing the hell out of them when it realizes that its American corporate tax base is starting to shrivel up as the "other half" (ie, actual GDP instead of loans) of the money starts flowing overseas.

Hey! (4, Funny)

gEvil (beta) (945888) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755857)

Most IT workers aren't short all over. They're only short where it counts...

Re:Hey! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756571)

... patience for your shenanigans?!

Maybe.... (1)

otacon (445694) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755859)

Maybe the companies that outsouce IT jobs to companies in India will outsource the job's due to lack of staff back to the United States.

Re:Maybe.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756667)

I think more likely they will outsource to former soviet block countries (where there is great education and low wage expecations). Or maybe mexico.

Well, I'm glad I'm out of IT except for my own personal support.

Shortfall? (5, Insightful)

Mydron (456525) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755871)

Lets be clear, no market, including the labour market, suffers a "shortfall". When industry types parade around the notion of a "shortfall" what they really mean is that they anticipate having to pay higher prices (or wages in this case). They do this to drum up support for government policy which will effectively suppress prices/wages.

I welcome such a shortfall.

Re:Shortfall? (1)

WPIDalamar (122110) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755943)

And with those higher wages come higher costs to the US companies doing the outsourcing, and less of an incentive to outsource. Yay.

Efficient market hypothesis? (1)

Mateo_LeFou (859634) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756019)

I thought that had been pretty-much refuted...

Re:Efficient market hypothesis? (1)

Threni (635302) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756135)

The EMH relates to the stock market, not the job market, and is still looking pretty plausible to me...

Re:Shortfall? (1)

fudgefactor7 (581449) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756115)

How to fix that issue: pass a law that you have to pay any employee or contracted employee a sum that is at least the prevailing wage for the area in which the company is located, and national laws also must apply.

This benefits the offshored people because all of a sudden not only must they receive the minimum wage that is accepted by law, but they must get all the benefits and the prevailing wage of their parent company's home. Short term, they make out like a bandit; eventually, the companies find it hard to justify the additional cost to offshore and bring the job back home (wherever that might be). Local economy goes up, and the formerly offshored workers now have valuable skills that they can use locally to improve their overall situation. Everone wins.

Re:Shortfall? (1)

n2art2 (945661) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756339)

All that would do is cause large companies to move their "home" location to some obscure 3rd world country, where they pay a few peanuts to some secretaries that forward calls and paperwork, back to the executives "personal" offices back in the states, and then the company would only be required to pay the peanuts that this new 3rd world local's regular wage is, allowing them to keep their current pay practices in effect, and then de-value other jobs that rely on the "minimum" wage of their original local, because now that doesn't apply.

It's a circular thing. So, no everyone does not win.

Re:Shortfall? (1)

Qzukk (229616) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756441)

All that would do is cause large companies to move their "home" location to some obscure 3rd world country

So? Most of the larger ones already have, to get out of paying taxes.

Re:Shortfall? (2, Funny)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756415)

How to fix that issue: pass a law that you have to pay any employee or contracted employee a sum that is at least the prevailing wage for the area in which the company is located, and national laws also must apply.

Cool! All the outsourced Indian IT jobs for Americans, at minimum wage, you can eat.

KFG

Re:Shortfall? (5, Funny)

EatHam (597465) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756427)

How to fix that issue: pass a law

If by "fix" you mean "create a giant clusterfuck", then yes, that would fix things nicely.

Hopelessly naive solution (2, Insightful)

Kombat (93720) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756595)

How to fix that issue: pass a law that you have to pay any employee or contracted employee a sum that is at least the prevailing wage for the area in which the company is located, and national laws also must apply.

I'm not sure if you realize this or not, so don't take offense, but I want to make sure you realize that US laws don't apply in other countries. Hopefully, you understand that the country "passing the law" that you're suggesting would have to be the "poor" country being outsource to, since any laws passed in the "rich" country being outsource from do not apply. The US doesn't run the world. They just act like they do.

That said, your solution has several major problems, but the most obvious one is, "why would a country that desperately needs foreign investments pass a law that would discourage companies from investing in their workers?" Why would India pass a law requiring foreign companies to pay their Indian workers outrageously high (by Indian standards) salaries, with the obvious result of said companies simply packing up and moving to a country without such laws?

Re:Shortfall? (1)

Sqwubbsy (723014) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756705)

at least the prevailing wage for the area in which the company is located, and national laws also must apply.

Er, right. Where did you study economics? Hint: if India wants the same laws as the US, they'll enact them.
On a micro level, this is why Philadelphia is losing jobs to Wilmington, DE. Folks can deal with Philly's red tape and high taxes, or they can go someplace less constricting. That's why it's called a free market.

Re:Shortfall? (0)

mi (197448) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756309)

Lets be clear, no market, including the labour market, suffers a "shortfall".

Wrong. Wrong and not at all "insigtful". What you are referring to, is the market's ability to correct such problems quickly and automatically: a shortfall causes the prices (salaries) to rise, which

  1. increases supply
  2. switches resources (workers) from other areas, less paying.

The 2. helps determine (automatically), which areas get the available supplies (of "talent"), but there is still a shortfall, until 1. kicks in (a few-years process)...

I welcome such a shortfall.

I — being in this case a supplier like yourself — welcome it too. I hate it in just about any other area, though...

Solution: hire the botnet spammer guys (3, Funny)

fudgefactor7 (581449) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755891)

(See previous story). What this will do is (A) give those spammers a legit job, and (B) take the operators of the spam-bots out of the mix, and (C) keep them busy with other things so they can't be bothered to spamminate the 'Net, and (D) solves the problem of the shortage in that particular area.

My get-rich scheme (1, Insightful)

qwertphobia (825473) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755923)

1. Quit.
2. ???
3. Get re-hired.
4. Profit!

Woohoo!

Re:My get-rich scheme (1)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756201)

1. You've got #2 and #3 backwards.

2. #3 should be "For more pay!"

3. You'll do even better if you eliminate #1...

"Why yes, my name is Suresh Gauri Shah Babu Ajay Subra Dinesh Bob!"

[...]

"Bob?"

[...]

"He's the guy we outsourced to in America. There's a talent shortage, you know."

but will it translate? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16755931)

Anybody who can get those skills here now will have a lot of opportunity

But can said skills pay the bills? /farnsworth

Re:but will it translate? (1)

creimer (824291) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756689)

My help desk job in Silicon Valley is paying enough. I spend one-third on renting a nice studio apartment, one-third on monthly expenses, and one-third on savings and reducing debt. The best part is I'm only working 40 hours a week so I can have a social life! ;)

India needs to outsource... (3, Insightful)

i_want_you_to_throw_ (559379) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755933)

to Vietnam or China. Always seems to work that way in outsourcing. Outsource to a place that's cheap and then they outsource to a cheaper place.

Might be a few years before you see an IT industry in Niger though.

Re:India needs to outsource... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756405)

exactly what my family was discussing over past weekend.

Re:India needs to outsource... (2, Funny)

Apocalypse111 (597674) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756641)

Yeah, the only people who have any IT skills in Nigeria are all trying to get help moving their vast fortunes to the US, and only need a little help from some willing citizens (who will be handsomely rewarded) to do it.

Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (4, Insightful)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755957)

I have a BSIT degree with a 3.5 GPA, but without real world experience in an IT department, it's impossible for me to find anything in IT that pays above tech support!

I'm tired of the chicken-egg thing. If I don't have experience I can't get the job. If I can't get the job, how am I supposed to get experience? /rant off

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (2, Insightful)

grasshoppa (657393) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756087)

I have a BSIT degree with a 3.5 GPA, but without real world experience in an IT department, it's impossible for me to find anything in IT that pays above tech support!

Too good for tech support eh?

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (2, Interesting)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756193)

Too good for tech support eh?

Yes and no.
Yes: I've done TS for over 10 years so I feel it's time to move on. With 10+ years experience and a degree, I feel I'm too good to TS. When I started, TS was a way to get your foot in the door to an IT job. That ended shortly after I started.

No: With my experience, TS jobs pay quite well, but not as good as mid-level IT. With a new baby at home and a wife who is no longer working, I can't afford the pay cut it would take to be entry level IT. So, I'm not too good for TS as I'm doing it now, while I dabble at home in higher technology (Linux, JSP, AD and so on).

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (1)

nojomofo (123944) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756291)

Why do you expect to get a mid-level IT job with no relevant experience? Just about everybody starts at the bottom. If you're good, you won't stay there for long.

Your problems are not your employer's concern (1)

everphilski (877346) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756343)

With my experience, TS jobs pay quite well, but not as good as mid-level IT. With a new baby at home and a wife who is no longer working, I can't afford the pay cut it would take to be entry level IT.

That is your concern, not your employers. Take the job that feeds your family and get over yourself.

That being said... are you looking in the right places? Willing to relocate? Willing to get a masters? Both will greatly increase your earning potential.

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (1)

pixelpusher220 (529617) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756445)

Most TS companies have *some* level of in-house development. See if you can get assigned to that even on a part-time basis. The company should like it because they'll pay you your current (below IT) rate, while you gain the experience you need.

If you company doesn't have any development oppurtunities...well it's time to look outside and yes you may need to take a pay cut short term to do this.

And many new Mom's do go back to work, it may be that you need to rethink that part of the situation. My brother's wife has been working since about 4 months after my niece arrived. Granted my preference is Mom or Dad at home (just like I had) but it ain't always in the cards financially. So if that's your situation, then suck it up for now in your current job till she can go back to work You'll have additional income to tide you over while you get experience in the lower paying intro-IT positions.


Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (1)

LOTHAR, of the Hill (14645) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756541)

So do you have 10 years experience or no experience? You may be your own worst enemy. If you were in TS for at 10 years, you had to as least been a team leader or group manager.

If you actually do have experience, take your resume to a pro and get some career counselling. Work on interview skills that'll let target yourself to the job you want.

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (3, Interesting)

cliveholloway (132299) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756657)

"I've done TS for over 10 years so I feel it's time to move on. With 10+ years experience and a degree, I feel I'm too good to TS."

And there is your problem. From that sentence alone, you say you feel entitled, yet you've not done anything about it. TS is only an entry to other positions if you push the envelope. One of our best sysadmins came from tech support. He was hungry to learn. Every night he'd stay after work for an hour or two to play with Linux/FreeBSD/Qmail etc. If I got your resume, I'd be looking at anything that shows you have a passion for the work - Open Source involvement, tech communities (hell, I link my Perlmonks node from my resume, warts and all - same username as /.). If your resume just says "Tech Support", you've dug your own hole. Get passionate about your work and the money will follow.

I personally spent 5 years teaching myself and setting up my own business (I failed at that) before I started earning anything near a respectable salary. For the first 2yrs, I was on around $100 a week, living in my girlfriend's mother's house.

Incidentally, out of the 6 devs here, only one has a CS degree. To me (though not my boss, note), degrees mean Jack Shit in the real world - especially ten years later. I did a Pure Math degree and I can't remember any of it (except the odd gem).

Don't "dabble" at home. Actually build and release something useful. Commit to where you want to be and start climbing. It's not going to just come and drop in your lap.

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (1)

miyako (632510) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756103)

As I understand it, you have to either: A: get exceptionally lucky, or B: take a job doing tech support and keep looking for something better.
Personally, I worked on F/OSS software during school, which gave me some solid experience to point to when it came time to interview.

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756121)

...but without real world experience

impossible ...to find anything ...that pays above tech support!


There is your answer. Get a job that pays whatever until you get the real world experience to get the salaray you want. If you can't afford that...find a new career. Welcome to adult life

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756127)

Location, Location, Location?

PS: I have a login, I'm a genuine coward.

Get real (1)

plopez (54068) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756157)

I started out in tech support. Probably most of the technical people on this board started there as well. Take it. Get 1+ years experience, some good references and then move on. Perhaps consult or do some pro bono work on the side to get your chops up.

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (2, Insightful)

Phisbut (761268) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756285)

I have a BSIT degree with a 3.5 GPA, but without real world experience in an IT department, it's impossible for me to find anything in IT that pays above tech support!

Then get an IT job with a tech support pay, get experience, then renegociate the pay. A degree is useless without experience, and an IT graduate without experience is not worth more than tech support pay, no matter the GPA.

I'm tired of the chicken-egg thing. If I don't have experience I can't get the job. If I can't get the job, how am I supposed to get experience?

I'm tired of those new graduates that all go like "I have a degree, I deserve a high paying job right now even though I have no experience whatsoever". You *can* get the job, simply not at a senior-programmer salary.

I got my first experience in a lousy job (VBA... *shudders*), with a lousy pay, but that got me the required experience to prove my worth, and get a pretty good job later on. Not everybody gets to be lead programmer on a multi-million project as soon as they graduate.

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (1)

pushf popf (741049) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756337)

Take an interesting job, regardless of what it pays. Stay for a while, suck up all the experience you can get, then go find a job that requires "experience".

Nobody wants an inexperienced recent grad because they're useless. The world is full of messy, poorly defined requirements that involve huge numbers of incompatible systems and people. It is not based on anything learned in college.

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756355)

Take a job that pays peanuts, but let you learn and get real world experience, and then get a job that pays once you've proven yourself. I started out in a low paying non-profit foundation, but I got to do real programming and learned a hell of a lot. Five years later I got a job that pays twice as much.

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (1)

19thNervousBreakdown (768619) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756399)

Your problem exists because I'm still cleaning up the mess the kid right out of college made of our network. I would have never believed a tiny 100-ish person 20 server network could be so screwed up. Get your colleges to stop graduating people who don't know what they're doing and this problem will go away.

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (1)

dave562 (969951) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756423)

You're on the opposite side of the equation from me. I have 10+ years of real world IT experience but no degree or certifications so no one wants to hire me, despite the fact that I have demonstrated proficiencies in the field.

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (3, Interesting)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756475)

That's funny. I know guys without the degree but 20+ years as advanced IT, sysadmin, etc.. they can outright smoke any college edu-ma-cated kid on the PC, DBA, etc... yet they have trouble finding jobs because most places are asking for ridiculous things like MASTERS in CS and 5+ years experience willing to take $35,000.00US a year. These places want $100+K quality for newbie salaries.....

It sucks in IT and CS kid.... you picked the one career that is in the most turmoil right now. best bet is to start consulting on your own, you can count that as experience on your resume.

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756509)

The other side of that equation is no better. I have less education than you but 12 years real world, shipping applications architecting and development *and* I live in silicon valley. I haven't had a job since July, and the only reason I've heard why I don't get hired is because I am "not technical enough" - meaning I don't have a degree they think is apropos. (Which is reason #1 why I say Google can go fuck themselves in the ass with rusty nails). I've heard that phrase at least 4 times in as many months.

Welcome to IT in the US.

Should have gone to a better school (2, Informative)

haplo21112 (184264) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756549)

Should have gone to a school with internships and/or work study as part of the course work. We recently hired a college grad here and he was looked on favorably due to the industry expirence that he got while in school. He has proved a valuable addition to the team. I pushed for his hire over another canidate due to his prior work on his work study/internships. He has been very valuable to me as I know only do the work of two people instead of 3! He probably makes 1/3 of what I do, but thats more than the Tech support guys are making most likely.

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (1)

flyingfsck (986395) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756583)

Careful, with too much experience, it is also difficult to get a job. The solution: Write a creative resume...

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (1)

uberCHIEFTAIN! (972422) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756609)

thats because you need to move to india. didn't you read the article?

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756691)

take the low pay job for one year - I had to do it too - now I make 3 times that amount

Re:Then why can't I find a friggin job?!!?! (2, Insightful)

businessnerd (1009815) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756735)

First off, if you see a listing that says x - x+2 years experience and you have none, apply anyway. "Experience" does not always mean "I have been out in the working world with a 9-5 job doing X for Y years. Sometimes it means that you have been using the technology (paid or unpaid) for that number of years.

Next, if all you do in College is get your degree with good grades, it will not do you any good. People all say "just get the piece of paper, that's all that matters", but that is complete BS. If you get internships for one or two years of your college career, you are in good shape. You have EXPERIENCE! You have a FOOT IN THE DOOR (it's not always what you know, but who you know). Plus you have had practice with interviewing, so when it comes time for the big ones, you will be more prepared.

Finally, tech support is not the only thing out there, not by a long-shot, for the fresh out of college. The path I took was consulting, and man was that a good decision. I was MIS, graduated last spring and had a job lined up since last thanksgiving. Consulting firms have a high turnover of people, which is good for the recent grad, cause that means they want YOU! As far as money, you are very likely to be making more than 40k, but not limited to. That's actually about the lowest I have heard from fellow grads going into consulting. The best part, is most consulting companies have a clear path defined for promotion/raises, so if you are committed, you will rise up quickly.

A few caveats for consulting though. Travel- it's pretty much 100% unless you are lucky enough to have a project you can commute to. Currently I'm on such a project which is nice, but otherwise, you will be in a hotel monday through thursday/friday and home on the weekends. The hours can be crazy, but that is also dependent on the project and ALL IT jobs can be like that. Like I said earlier, the turnover in consulting is higher than other IT areas and many people get burnt out from the travel/hours and leave after maybe two years, but by that point, you have gotten exposure with a bunch of companies and gained that valuable experience you are seeking.

Shortage smortage (5, Insightful)

J.R. Random (801334) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755959)

A "shortgage" of labor simply means that businessmen have to pay people more than they would prefer. There is always a wage at which any "shortage" disappears, but that is not the fix prefered by the business class (importing more cheap labor or outsourcing is). You never hear about a CEO shortage even when they make millions a year.

Re:Shortage smortage (4, Informative)

Bryansix (761547) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756241)

Actually there is one field where the is an actual shortage. That is in Nursing. You see when a shortage in any other field occurs two things happen. The first is that people have to be paid more. The second is that because of the first less people are hired. So the company does a little less business because it doesn't have as many people to provide the service or make the product. But in healthcare you don't have the choice of doing less business. Your business is defined by an acute need of the public at large that has nothing to do with your ability to meet the need. In addition healthcare is not elastic. If prices rise, people still need care so you can't just raise prices to drive down demand. So in the field of Nursing there really is a shortage. How does that affect things? Well more and more nurses are prepared on the community college level with an associates degree. Also, nurses get stuck with a higher patient count then they should be. Both of these things lead to shitty care. So the Nursing shortage is real and it affects everyone.

off topic (1)

plopez (54068) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756317)

But as good an analysis I've seen as to why free market forces don't apply to much of health care.

Re:Shortage smortage (1)

J.R. Random (801334) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756497)

The higher wages paid to employees when there is a shortage may result in higher prices that reduce overall demand for the product (and thus reduce the demand for the labor). But that depends on the price elasticity of the demand. In situations where there is little elasticity (as in health care) increasing wages relieves the shortage not by reducing the end product demand but by encouraging more people to go into nursing in the first place.

I guarantee that if nurses' wages were doubled the "nurse shortgage" would vanish within the time required to achieve certification as a nurse. (The shortage would actually decline prior to that time as people who left nursing because it wasn't worth the stress and hassle would get back into it.)

Actually, you DO hear about CEO shortages (1)

Ungrounded Lightning (62228) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756613)

You never hear about a CEO shortage even when they make millions a year.

Actually, you DO hear about CEO shortages. Whenever somebody complains about how much CEOs get in pay and benefits. B-)

No shortage of qualified people (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16755961)

There's no shortage of qualified people, IMHO. There's just a "shortage" of qualified people willing to take the ridiculously low pay tech jobs offer. $12/hour is the average for tech support/hardware repair in ON, Canada, for example. As a comparison "food service" (ie: McDonald's, etc) workers earn about $10/hour.

Myself, I plan to leave tech forever for an electrician apprenticeship. (*crosses fingers*)

Re:No shortage of qualified people (1)

flyingfsck (986395) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756623)

Yup, my son is working as a security guard. That way, he can get $12 per hour for doing nothing and reading/studying. That is much preferred over actually having to do real work for $12 per hour.

Maybe business might have to pay IT people (5, Insightful)

Black Art (3335) | more than 7 years ago | (#16755977)

The reason that IT jobs were exported to India in the first place is that US employers did not want to pay US wages. It is the same reason the want exemptions to import workers. So they can pay them sub-standard wages and deport them if they get uppity.

Until employers get over the slave owner mentality and start paying people fairly for their work, they are going to have a hard time finding good people.

Re:Maybe business might have to pay IT people (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756625)


Until employers get over the slave owner mentality and start paying people fairly for their work, they are going to have a hard time finding good people.


I have your answer.... small business. I dropped my career at a major telcom company and went for less pay at a really small shop and never been happier.

Bosses treat you well, you get paid decently, get fringe benefits like living 15 minutes from home, able to telecommute 1 day a week, free donut fridays, etc....

you are not going to get the $150K sysadmin or IT job, but you will get treated like a human, actually like your job and the rare thing.... when you get up in the AM you want to go to work because the boss says "roll in at least before 9:30, but no hurry." you can leave at 3:30 because work is done today, or it's nice out... etc...

Working for a big corp to get the big $$$ so I can drive 3+ hours a day in my BMW that is depreciating faster than electronics because it noew has 180K on it and was only for impressing the suits anyways is not worth it in any way shape or form.

The good at his job IT guy will not be manager or director... only the guy with a business degree or rubs elbows with the upper managers get that position, and typically they are the most incompetent... (Hi Anil!) they dont want someone that knows what he is doing to get management jobs at corperations because it's a buddy system.

If you like corperate life and corperate polotics.. please go that way... you get paid decently some places but get treated like crap and have no life.

Go for the small business, live in rural towns and be happy.....

Yeah, right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756003)

As an "IT" worker with experience in US, can't find a decent job in SF bay area. In interests of fairness, have to say that I declined jobs like this - hands on technical manager position that paid around 55 grand for managing 20 people. Sheesh.

Does that mean... (1)

IANAAC (692242) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756033)

that I can now get a helpdesk position here in the US?

"Hello, mhy name is Rajesh, how may I help you?"

Relax. Just laugh.

Don't be fooled! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756035)

When I started college in the mid-late 90s, that was all the talk - a big need in the tech industry. Tons of jobs available! By the time I graduated 4 years later, I was amazed to see how many CIS graduates were having a hard time finding a job or having to settle for some $20,000 - $30,000/yr tech support job with long hours.

Horsefeathers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756059)

"Job Shortage" is an employer myth. All employers would love the supply of labor to go up so that wages will go down. We've had a "nursing shortage" for about 60 years now. Funny thing is, when they raise nurses wages, more people get trained to be a nurse and more people find the time to put in nurses hours. Funny thing about wage incentives.

Supply and Demand, Econ. 101, remember? Let supply/demand settle wages and numbers of workers without special targeted, non-citizen, employer holds the visa H-1B work programs. Capital mobility and citizenship track immigration will address the imbalance without subsidizing the wealthiest companies in America.

Want more tech workers? Hire them and train 'em on the job.

Not a shortage of IT workers.... (3, Interesting)

sharkb8 (723587) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756065)

There's not a shortage of IT workers in the U.S., there's a shortage of IT workers who will work for $25K a year in the U.S. Want a native English speaker with .Net programming skills, it'll cost more than that.

Besides most universities don't teach practical IT skills. Rarely did I ever see a class in Visual C++ or in .Net. Want to learn compiler design theory or advanced data structures? no problem. Want to learn how to set up a WIndows server? that's where ITT Tech comes in. And tech schools in the U.S. have a stigma attached to them where most who are qualified to go to a 4 year university would attend a tech school. I got my EE degree, but learned command-line Pascal in an elective. I had to learn Delphi, .Net, C++ and PHP on my own. The people who are motivated to learn on their own have some drive and expect to be promoted at some point, not to get 4% raises every two years for the rest of their lives.

Gates needs to be a good little capitalist and pay the market rate.

Re:Not a shortage of IT workers.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756401)

Quick question: did you expect to learn .Net, Delphi, etc. in an EE program? Because if you did, you chose you major extremely poorly.

Re:Not a shortage of IT workers.... (2, Informative)

calcutta001 (907416) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756467)

Yes there is a shortage if IT workers. I started my consulting company two years after graduation (2004) make $200/hrs. The thing that I am most great full for are the compiler design, the distributed systems, the graph theory classes that I took in college. One has to understand computer science in depth. If you learn to use Windows server you skills will be obsolete in few years, if you learn how servers are built, you will be ready no matter what comes along.

My biggest gripe is people think they are know IT, after learning to type on a keyboard. Yes you can program by drag and drop, yes you can install a web server and create applications with that .net crap. But understand you are setting yourself to become obsolete in few years. There is a difference between a mechanical engineers and auto repair guy. Don't complain about engineering schools when all you want to become is a mechanic. Dont expect an engineer's salary when you are repairing cars.

At work (Oakland, CA) we see a glut of talent (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756085)

Every time we post an opening, there is a storm of resume submissions, and the quality of the top 20% is extremely good. So for each position, we get about 200-500 resumes, of which 40-100 are insanely great. And we are a non-sexy company, with ho-hum pay.

Talent shortage? I wish. If there were, I would quit and look elsewhere!

Outsource where now? Angola? Vietnam? (3, Insightful)

gelfling (6534) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756113)

What that means is that India is experiencing its own outsourcing dilemma. Rates are actually too high for India. So they are looking to outsource their development to even less developed countries such as Vietnam, Angola, Malaysia. Even Africa. Those jobs are NEVER coming to America. NEVER. If they can't afford rates in Mumbai they certainly can't afford Research Triangle Park, NC or even Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

How about companies... (1)

RRRobotHouse (949354) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756147)

Be more realistic about their workload and what they can do. How about a little priortization? Instead of throwing more bodies at the problem, how about scaling back or being more innovative with how you implement an IT project?

Job shortages (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756173)

There is never a shortage of labor at the right price

No short fall, just picky employers... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756185)

Here in NZ there is apparently a short fall of IT staff, which is a load of BS, employers are after people with 10 - 15 years experience, and thats where the fall is.
Most employers here see that people have the degrees/qualifications but appear to ignore it.
I had to fight for my current job as a PC tech, I have a BIT and 2 years employed experience as a sysadmin, other years were spent studing.
The only reason Im not a sysadmin an more is that the company was taken over, and disbanded.

Empolyers need to get there finger/fists out of there ASSES and employ grads. how else is one suppose to get experience?

I am 6' 1''. (1)

agent (7471) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756239)

Six foot one inch is not short; it is well above average!

Not surprising... (2, Interesting)

creimer (824291) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756265)

I went back to school part-time and started earning my certifications over the last five years when the handwriting was on the wall and everyone was stampeding out of I.T. into health care field instead. Southeast Asia will never supply all the I.T. workers in the world when their economies start booming and they have their own internal needs. With the all the baby boomers retiring over the next 30 years, there's going to be a lot of U.S. jobs but not enough people. I'm looking forward for a long and rewarding career.

It's the salaries (1)

heroine (1220) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756313)

There's not a shortage of workers. There's a shortage of salaries which can provide a decent living. Been at the same job for 5 1/2 years because the modern salaries are nowhere near what they were in 2001.

Re:It's the salaries (1)

westcoastken (980697) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756473)

That's true -- my salary inflated to $115K during the Dot Com then quickly deflated back down to $90K after March 2001. I have been an I.T. Manager/SW Dev. since 1996 and a programmer for 15 years before that. (SF Bay Area) Job openings here get a ton of resumes, and like was said, top 20% are VERY qualified to get the job -- the ones who DO get the job are the ones that can communicate at interviews; can write a cover letter; and can handle simple stress of a tech quiz. Easy!

It's a shortage of cheap IT workers, stupid! (1)

Ranger (1783) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756323)

It was never about a shortage of IT workers. It was always about a shortage of cheap and stable source of labor. I'm shedding big crocidile tears right now over this so-called shortage. It's not like like I'm a disgrunted IT worker that took four years—3 of which were stuck in a call center hell—to find an IT job making half what I was during the dot-com boom. No that couldn't possibly be it.

Re:It's a shortage of cheap IT workers, stupid! (1)

KokorHekkus (986906) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756559)

Bingo. And the shortage is going to be filled by the cheapest supply available. If they can't get cheap labor in India... watch them comb through low-income eastern european countries next.

Please also say WHAT is in short supply (2, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756375)

What's really rare these days is someone with 10+ years of experience in C++, Java, C#, SQL, can show experience with libraries for Windows, Linux, PalmOS and Symbian, has experience as a team leader, is able to speak 3 languages fluently, is willing to relocate to the other end of the world, is "flexible" (read: Doesn't mind 60+ hours a week) and expects less than 2000 a month.

Yes, those people get fewer and fewer every day. But they're in demand, I tell you, you only gotta read the job ads!

That glass is half empty... (1)

LaRoach (968977) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756379)

As an IT worker I'm okay with this for me, but I also remember the dot com days when people like my bicycle repairman roommate suddenly became a Network Engineer. After the boom I spent most of my time fixing stuff that people like that "implemented".

My question is... (1)

bjk002 (757977) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756395)

Where after Vietnam, Africa, etc...

I mean, are we going to begin some type of ridiculous loop, chasing the cheapest labor around the globe with the hope of shaving a few bucks off the bottom line?

This is quickly becoming absurd.

Re:My question is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756539)

What you are describing is known in economics as a race to the bottom. Welcome to the new global market where all that matters is preserving the profit margins for the investor classes.

Fool me once... (1)

ancient_kings (1000970) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756419)

shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Not going to fall for that bit again....

Yeah right, shortage (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756433)

So, there's a shortage eh? well, here's a word of advice for employers:

first, stop asking for 5 years of experience even for manual testing. take time to compose job requirements, interview, and find out if the candidate can actually do the job instead of having a buzzword resume.

oh yeah, do not let the HR bimbo to screen the resumes, she lacks the intelligence to sift through them. Even better do not let the grumpy HR granny do it either.

Stop taking bribes from recruiters who 'assist' you in finding a contractor with that beefy resume and 5 years experience in XDRSVT tool (could be any random combinatin of letters). In the end all they will give you is a desperate Indian/chinese/russian guy, subcrontracted from another company for a tiny fraction of what you are paying, and whose resume has been through the middlemans creative hands. Poor guy will slog and get things done somehow, but you will do everyone some justice if you interview him directly and are reasonably open about your expectations.

Oh, treat those Indian/chinese/russian consultant as a human, not some kind of machine with no life. Stop baking 'WHAT' at them whenever they ask for some clarification. Often, your docuemnts/specs are quite muddled and reflect your inner confusion quite well. He's just being polite when he's keeping that 'what an idiot' to himself.

stop being a slave to wallstreet. IT/computing is not something that you should *only* outsource. A number of permanent techical employees whom you hire and keep happy can only add value to your company. And make it a point to hire some entry level candidates whom you allow to grow, as well.

Re:Yeah right, shortage (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756513)

WORD...

Sweet... (1)

eko33 (982179) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756499)

Mabybe I'll finally land a job.

Skills != Experience ! (1)

Programmer_Errant (1004370) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756529)

When they say skills, they really mean experience. And rather specific experience at that. Even entry level positions want at least 2 years experience in certain skillsets. This industry trade association propaganda gets really tiresome at times.

The Last IT Job in the US (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16756597)

As an American IT worker, when the last IT job is sent to India...

I'm going to move there and open a convenience store.

Oh good! (1)

Doctor Memory (6336) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756607)

I was worried that the IT worker shortage was going to drag on for months, but now that it's all over I feel better. I just hope that my salary doesn't get cut, what with supply finally meeting demand and all...

the world is backwards! (1)

dolson (634094) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756647)

WTF is going on with this world? Microsoft re-selling Linux, and now this? Now how will we know what is real and what is not on April 1st?

There is no "shortage" (2, Insightful)

Jack Sombra (948340) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756661)

Unless you call "shortage" a low supply of qualified people willing to work at appropriate rates for under-qualified people

I know tons of people who left the industry when the crash happened, not because they could not find jobs or did not want to work in the industry any longer but because they could not find jobs that gave adequate compensation for their skills and experience. Those people are still out there and if rates increase enough they will return

There is something very wrong with a sector when there can be jobs advertised that require 5/7 years plus experience in multiple tecnologies that offer rates equal to that of a fast food resturant manager (or even less)

HR's fault... (1)

Beefslaya (832030) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756695)

Most of the HR hiring manuals need to be re-written.

There is some misunderstanding that a grad out of a 4 year college with a Computer Science degree has more knowledge then a Sys Admin with 3-5 years experience. They are smoking crack. (Not to insult those that spent or borrowed good money to get that piece of paper, but everything you learned in your first 3 years is already obsolete)

They have ignored the need for so long that they don't know what they want.

IT Worker PAY SHORTAGE everywhere (0, Redundant)

Martin Marvinski (581860) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756729)

The only reason there is a shortage of IT professionals is there is a PAY shortage! Fix that and you will have more IT workers.

Shortage of Senior level IT people (2, Interesting)

JetUX (1024197) | more than 7 years ago | (#16756731)

It's only Sr. level people that we are looking for in the U.S. I've worked for a major IT outsourcing company for 10 years now as a Sr. UNIX SA. I can say that it is rare that we ever fill an open position on the first interview. When the job description clearly states that we are looking for senior level UNIX admins and we get people that don't can't read cidr notation, don't know how to manage a cluster, don't know the difference between RAID, SAN, and NAS, etc... We get plenty of applicants that I would consider junior, or total newbs. Unless you're planning to move to India, work for 5 years, and then come back as a senior-level engineer, don't believe this article. Run Away!!!
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