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New Mono 1.2 Now Supports WinForms

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the who-doesn't dept.

304

smbarbour writes "The Mono project (the open-source .NET compatibility library acquired by Novell when Ximian was purchased) has released version 1.2. They are now including support for WinForms. Ars Technica has a detailed rundown on the new release. The Mono project supports Visual Basic.NET as well, so developers that use VB.NET now have the possibility of directly porting applications to Linux." From the article: "Relatively high memory consumption and performance bottlenecks are commonly perceived as being amongst Mono's most significant weaknesses. Some critics frequently refer to various performance issues to support arguments against broader adoption of Mono technology in open source projects, most notably within the GNOME community. The performance improvements in Mono 1.2 could potentially address such criticisms, but it is likely that a lot more work will be required before the problems are completely resolved."

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304 comments

So what? (1, Insightful)

sproketboy (608031) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799538)

Who uses this?

Re:So what? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16799624)

developers that want true write-once, run anywhere without being limited to crappy languages (eg, Java).

Re:So what? (1)

ramunasg (973228) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800100)

And how is .NET better?

Re:So what? (2, Insightful)

XMyth (266414) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800890)

Properties (well that's how C# is better).

Re:So what? (1)

doktorjayd (469473) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800368)

crappy languages like java?

as opposed to real-world languages like VB?

Re:So what? (2, Interesting)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799644)

If you use Beagle for searching you do.
There are some cool mono projects out there. Now if they would just create a native compiler for mono programs so I don't have to have the entire run-time installed that would be great.

Re:So what? (1)

LiquidCoooled (634315) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800176)

I keep trying it.
I have attempted to kick start it a number of times and really hope this project reaches its full potential.

My current language is classic VB but would gladly approach another language if the IDE were right.
I don't like the new VS IDE, it feels like all new Microsoft applications - slow and fumbly and they all act like a webpage (clicking between folders in outlook is awful you see emails displayed from the previous panel and everything - express was instant.

Re:So what? (1)

oohshiny (998054) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800466)

Chances are, you do. It ships with several Linux distros, and some Gnome apps are written in it.

Great, even more ways for MS to kill it (4, Insightful)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799554)

So now not only do we have to wait for submarine patents on C# and the runtime, now they can hit us on anything in their API as well. Especially with the Novell deal, people ought to realize that MS is just waiting for a chance to use their patents against open source. This is turning a bad idea worse. Just say no to Mono.

Re:Great, even more ways for MS to kill it (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799688)

I tend to agree totally.

While the concept of what mono offered was a great idea, the risks are far greater. just choose something like python instead. Its also cross compatible and i dont think the rug can be pulled out from underneath you at the last minute.

Re:Great, even more ways for MS to kill it (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16799694)

Could patents be used to completely disable Mono?

First some background information.

The .NET Framework is divided in two parts: the ECMA/ISO covered technologies and the other technologies developed on top of it like ADO.NET, ASP.NET and Windows.Forms.

Mono implements the ECMA/ISO covered parts, as well as being a project that aims to implement the higher level blocks like ASP.NET, ADO.NET and Windows.Forms.

The Mono project has gone beyond both of those components and has developed and integrated third party class libraries, the most important being: Debugging APIs, integration with the Gnome platform (Accessibility, Pango rendering, Gdk/Gtk, Glade, GnomeUI), Mozilla, OpenGL, extensive database support (Microsoft only supports a couple of providers out of the box, while Mono has support for 11 different providers), our POSIX integration libraries and finally the embedded API (used to add scripting to applications and host the CLI, or for example as an embedded runtime in Apache).

The core of the .NET Framework, and what has been patented by Microsoft falls under the ECMA/ISO submission. Jim Miller at Microsoft has made a statement on the patents covering ISO/ECMA, (he is one of the inventors listed in the patent): http://web.archive.org/web/20030609164123/http://m ailserver.di.unipi.it/pipermail/dotnet-sscli/msg00 218.html [archive.org] .

Basically a grant is given to anyone who want to implement those components for free and for any purpose.

The controversial elements are the ASP.NET, ADO.NET and Windows.Forms subsets. Those are convenient for people who need full compatibility with the Windows platform, but are not required for the open source Mono platform, nor integration with today's Mono's rich support of Linux.

The Mono strategy for dealing with these technologies is as follows: (1) work around the patent by using a different implementation technique that retains the API, but changes the mechanism; if that is not possible, we would (2) remove the pieces of code that were covered by those patents, and also (3) find prior art that would render the patent useless.

Not providing a patented capability would weaken the interoperability, but it would still provide the free software / open source software community with good development tools, which is the primary reason for developing Mono.

The patents do not apply in countries where software patents are not allowed.

For Linux server and desktop development, we only need the ECMA components, and things that we have developed (like Gtk#) or Apache integration.

With the new Novell/Microsoft agreement, will the patent policy change?

Mono is a community project, and as such, we will continue to implement the policy of not integrating knowingly infringing code into Mono.

And we will continue to follow the steps outlined in the previous topic if code that potentially infringes is found: finding prior art, finding different implementation techniques, or if none of those are possible, removing the code from Mono.

Re:Great, even more ways for MS to kill it (3, Insightful)

Richard W.M. Jones (591125) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800232)

Can someone please tell me, which patents is Microsoft alleging that Mono infriges? Patent numbers please, not general assertions or FUD.

Rich.

Re:Great, even more ways for MS to kill it (4, Interesting)

segedunum (883035) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800506)

The .NET Framework is divided in two parts: the ECMA/ISO covered technologies and the other technologies developed on top of it like ADO.NET, ASP.NET and Windows.Forms.
NO. Microsoft has made it abundantly clear that when you implement the the ECMA stuff, and your own CLR, you are entering into a RAND agreement with Microsoft, and they have patents essential to the running of it:

http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/mai n/0,14179,2887217,00.html [zdnet.com]

This was pointed out years ago. No, how long does this agreement last? The answer is, as long as Microsoft wants it to. Should Microsoft revoke this agreement, or initiate a revocation, then the worst that will happen is that the ECMA standards will be revoked. The ECMA wording on this is pathetically weak and under no circumstances gives a legally binding long-term guarantee. This is why we had all that rubbish about a 'letter from Microsoft' that didn't materialise some time back:

http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/codeofco nduct.htm [ecma-international.org]

The whole 'ECMA is safe' thing is what the Mono people would have you believe. It isn't. The RAND stuff is double speak, because Microsoft do have patents that are specific to implementing .Net, CLR, the ECMA stuff etc. Not Java or anything else - just .Net. The e-mail quoted above basically means nothing.

It's actually more likely that the Microsoft specific stuff like ADO.Net, ASP.Net and Windows.Forms are safer since these are only namespaces in an API, although their patents basically say that if you're implementing .Net stuff and running it in a CLR then it applies. Fairly clever actually. They're saying that if you want to implement some of the stuff in a JVM or something, then that's OK, but if you're cloning a Microsoft compatible .Net then it applies to you.

Re:Great, even more ways for MS to kill it (2, Interesting)

RealSurreal (620564) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799706)

A week ago I would have said you were a paranoid, FUD-spreading nutjob but now I have to agree with you. Novell have sold themselves out and I'm going to be deeply suspicious of anything they do from now on.

Maybe that's why they signed the agreement with MS (1)

Martin Marvinski (581860) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799808)

Could this be the reason Novell signed that agreement with Microsoft?

Re:Great, even more ways for MS to kill it (2, Insightful)

debackerl (1025744) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799898)

Stop spreading FUD about patents. Microsoft will likely never attack because Novell could counter-attack using the Open Invention Network. If you never heard about OIN, just google for "Mono patent OIN". Also up to now Microsoft has never been hostile to this new implementation. Of course this does not mean they would never attack, but they know what would happen to them in that case. Also Mono take care of doing clean-room implementation to have a pretty clean implementation.

Re:Great, even more ways for MS to kill it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16800346)

Why would Novell do that? They just entered a deal with MS that gave them clear light to use their patents. Mono + Novell is a great combination, patents on Mono are only a problem if you want to run your mono application on another Linux distribution. Do you really think Novell is going to care if Redhat or Ubuntu customers get sued?

Clean room implementation help against copyright infringement but not patent infringement.

Re:Great, even more ways for MS to kill it (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16799904)

Mod parent troll. MS has released all patents relating to the .NET framework for public use. The Mono website itself even mentions that specifically.

Stop the FUD.

Maybe I can Finally Get Imeem Running ON Linux (1)

illectro (697914) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799592)

Since the linux version is forever a 'coming soon' rumour, maybe mono will let imeem work on my Ubuntu box.

Re:Maybe I can Finally Get Imeem Running ON Linux (1)

speculatrix (678524) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800290)

yeah, right about the time the new Duke Nukem is released for quad-core x86-64 technology with support for 3D holographic displays using quantum computer acceleration units.

Very good! (4, Interesting)

Orion Blastar (457579) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799596)

I want to be able to develop applications in both Windows and Linux. VS.Net and Mono allow me to use the same code with very little tweaking between platforms and keep using my Visual BASIC skills I learned over a decade ago.

Windows Forums means I don't have to rewrite part of the program that uses forms for Linux.

I hope this gets more VS.Net developers porting over to Linux using Mono. Linux can really use more easy to use and easy to develop applications without having to learn kernel hacking and methods that exist only for Linux. This is a good thing and maybe the corporations will decide to have some Linux workstations if they can develop VB.Net applications for them the same way they develop them for Windows.

Re:Very good! (1)

febuiles (743020) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799752)

Mmm, maybe its just taste or being just too tied to one platform, but I for one find development on Linux/BSD OSs much easier than Windows. I like to fire up Emacs and just start producing, knowing that I'll have autotools, my compilers (or interpreters) ready, not having to use some bloated solutions like MS Visual Studio, Borland tools or even worse, having to download a bunch of Cygwin packages just to "feel like home". Tastes I guess.

Re:Very good! (1)

Tim C (15259) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800832)

I like to fire up Emacs and just start producing, knowing that I'll have autotools, my compilers (or interpreters) ready, not having to use some bloated solutions like MS Visual Studio, Borland tools

Yes, that's a matter of personal taste. Me, I do Java development, and if pressed can do so using nothing more than vi and ant. I'll take Eclipse over that any day of the week, though. Similarly, I work with people who are the exact opposite, using Eclipse only when they absolutely have to.

Re:Very good! (1)

Orion Blastar (457579) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800968)

Point is you already know the environment and languages you work in. I am talking about convincing people used to Windows and VB.Net to start developing on Linux that don't have your knowledge or skills. They'd get lost in Linux if they were forced to use and learn EMacs, Perl, and GCC and a brand new IDE that they don't know how to use yet. There is a learning curve there that keeps them away from Linux, and Mono helps them use an environment they are already used to using.

Re:Very good! (4, Insightful)

EvanED (569694) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801460)

You know, I'm a huge fan of Emacs... I use it as my primary editor, I'm running Emacs 22 from CVS with the Emacs Code Browser. But it might just be because I'm new at using ECB and Semantic and those types of tools, but I'd take a full-fledged IDE any day. I like being able to right click on an identifier and go right to its definition, and not have to worry that TAGS didn't understand what was going on, or that it was in a file that's almost the same but in a different directory. I haven't even figured out how to click on an include file and jump to it. (BTW, like I said, I'm new at this, and I haven't really found a good "here's how to set up this tool" page. It's mostly along the lines of a lot of Unix documentation where it almost seems like to understand what it says you already have to know what it's talking about. So if you know how to set it up so that I can do these things, please let me know. If you want, give me an email and I can give you more information about my setup.)

Let alone the other things that a good IDE will give you like refactoring support.

Re:Very good! (1)

shura57 (727404) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799786)

I want to be able to develop applications in both Windows and Linux. VS.Net and Mono allow me to use the same code with very little tweaking between platforms and keep using my Visual BASIC skills I learned over a decade ago.

The python + gtk allow you to do the same. Why hold on to Visual BASIC, if it's shitty in the first place?

Re:Very good! (5, Insightful)

RealSurreal (620564) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799832)

<Devil's advocate> Have you looked at job ads lately? Hundreds of VB(.net) jobs for every Python job. </Devil's advocate>

Re:Very good! (0, Troll)

qbwiz (87077) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799990)

And not one of those VB jobs that I would want to work on. Of course, I may not always get the choice...

Re:Very good! (1)

Orion Blastar (457579) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801036)

Well then I hope you don't mind unemployment. Some of us like to have steady paychecks and be able to pay our bills and own a house and raise a family. I mean maybe you can code Python for food some day and some open source dotcom will take pity on you and hire you, until the public investing in them notices that they have an Underpants Gnomes Business Plan:

#1 Develop hot new technology in Python.
#2 ?
#3 Profit!

Then you'll all be on the street with "Willing to code Python for food" signs and living in cardboard boxes with your "Visual BASIC sucks" T-Shirts.

Re:Very good! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16800086)

Wait a minute... are we talking about what people should learn in order to get employment on an existing legacy project, or what they should use in order to do a job (assuming they're in the position to make that decision)?

You kind of changed the subject there.

Re:Very good! (1)

McNihil (612243) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801306)

It is a poor programmer if he/she/it only programs in one language.

Re:Very good! (2, Insightful)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800560)

VB.NET isn't VB6. Its a totally different architecture, with a (rarely used, aside when porting apps) compatibility layer (not an emulator or anything, just stuff to make syntax work), and similar keywords. The language, constructs and syntax structure is so similar to other languages (especialy C#) that you can use javascript applets on the net to convert between the two

VB6 and previous were shitty. VB.NET is good stuff that looks shitty.

Re:Very good! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16800790)

u're shitty.
no linux solution can even touch vb.net or even c++ from VS.NET

Re:Very good! (1)

shura57 (727404) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801322)

Says who? and by what criteria? BTW, I didn't call you names. I guess I should have.

Re:Very good! (1)

Orion Blastar (457579) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801000)

Because if I entered the Python market, I'd be a beginner and not be able to get a job with it until I get experience with Python. But seriously who is going to hire a Python developer with less than a year's experience anyway? I got over a decade and a half with Windows and Visual BASIC and a ton of knowledge and experience that I cannot just throw away because someone who cannot even find a job that gets paid as well as I do with Visual BASIC, is trying to tell me that Visual BASIC sucks. I mean really, you want me to give up $150,000USD a year contract jobs with Visual BASIC, just to get those $30,000USD a year jobs with Python? Now which one sucks?

Re:Very good! (1)

shura57 (727404) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801408)

I don't want you to do anything. You said that you want to develop cross-platform and I pointed out that Python does the job. Nowhere in your original post was money an issue.

I guess 30K sucks compared to 150K, but this is irrelevant to languages themselves.

Re:Very good! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16799892)

I want to be able to develop applications in both Windows and Linux. VS.Net and Mono allow me to use the same code with very little tweaking between platforms and keep using my Visual BASIC skills I learned over a decade ago.

or... you can learn Java, Ruby, Python, Tcl/Tk, or (god forbid) C++! and improve your skills in the process. Ah, and you can always use Gambas and learn nothing.

Re:Very good! (2, Informative)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799900)

"Windows Forums"?

You know, this has been my major concern with Mono -- moronic Visual Basic programmers migrating to Linux. And if spelling isn't enough:

Linux can really use more easy to use and easy to develop applications without having to learn kernel hacking and methods that exist only for Linux.

Most software I use can be compiled with very little modification between Linux or OS X (using X11). I'm a Linux developer and I rarely touch kernel code, and then, only for fun. We have a local radio station that's running entirely on Ubuntu, without touching the kernel.

Implying that Linux development requires kernel hacking is worse than moronic -- it's infectiously moronic. You're spreading FUD, intentionally or not.

And may I ask, what is it that's stopped you from doing exactly what you described, but with Java instead of Mono/.NET?

Oh well, there's always the decent stuff: Beagle.

Re:Very good! (0)

Orion Blastar (457579) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801100)

Java, performance issues, and Sun suing any company that tried to have their own version of Java. Plus Java apps are really buggy in IE and Firefox.

I tried to learn Java with 1.1, and then 2.0 came out, and then Java started to release a lot of upgrades and updates.

I've actually compiled some C++ programs in Linux using gcc, stuff like modem drivers that require kernel headers that don't compile correctly without some tweaking. Other programs as well, forcing me to download the RPM tarballs because I don't know enough about the Linux kernel to make changes to those kernel header source code files. Then when I do upgrade the kernel, the programs I had before are now broken and need to be recompiled. It is not FUD, it is facts and I have experience with Linux since 1995. I would have developed in Linux already with gcc and Java, but my bad experiences with those languages has sort of scared me away from them. Plus when I went to ask for help on forums, I got called a n00b and was called a lot of bad names and flamed to death. So trying to get decent help from the Linux community, did not work out for me very well. So I went back to the basics, Visual BASIC.

Re:Very good! (1)

HiThere (15173) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799936)

If that's what you want, use Java, Ruby, Python, or some other approach.

This one looks too dangerous to risk. It *MIGHT* be safe... but "do you feel lucky?".

MS has issued a clear warning that is some project becomes popular, they will bankrupt it. Exactly which patents might be used aren't obvious, but there have long been suspicions that MS has some patents covering parts of .net which are ostensibly "Well, the API is open. Build it if you can." This contract with Novell right before the release of a version of mono with WinForms rather suggests that Novell is being used as a stalking horse.

Re:Very good! (0, Troll)

AJWM (19027) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800018)

I want to be able to develop applications in both Windows and Linux.

Then learn some standard languages (Perl, Python, C++, Java...) and portable toolkits (Qt, Wx, etc), not Microsoft's proprietary stuff.

Visual BASIC skills

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Linux can really use more easy to use and easy to develop applications without having to learn kernel hacking

Uh, right. Not sure where you get the idea that developing apps using the IDEs, languages and toolkits available for Linux has anything to do with kernel hacking. Have you ever even used Linux?

Python is much better that VB (1)

OshEcho (971542) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800600)

Then learn some standard languages (Perl, Python, C++, Java...) and portable toolkits (Qt, Wx, etc), not Microsoft's proprietary stuff.
I agree.

Visual BASIC skills

Isn't that an oxymoron?


Of course its not. To get VB to do what you want you really have to work it:)

I'm a java troll. (1)

khundeck (265426) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800584)

Seriously though.
Kurt

Re:Very good! (1)

Johnno74 (252399) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801176)

Don't count on your visual basic skills you learned "over a decade ago" helping you out much. VB.Net syntax is similar to old-school vb5-6, but writing apps for the .net framework is a completely different kettle of fish. The difference between C# and vb.net is tiny compared with the difference between vb6 and vb7 (vb.net)

You can still hack something ugly together with vb.net (or c#) in a hurry, but if you want to do it right you have to take a different approach.

Re:Very good! (1)

Quarters (18322) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801278)

What good are your decade old Visual Basic skills when the entire concept and syntax of the language changed between VB6 and VB.NET? They're entirely different. VB.NET shares more in common (quite a lot, really) with C# than it does with VB6.

It's about fucking time (1)

tehdely (690619) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799602)

How long did it take them? 3 years?

Meanwhile Mono and .NET both grow less and less relevant.

LOL @ N, failures (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16799640)


 

Indeed. (4, Interesting)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799606)

This is a pretty cool project, and its coming along nicely. I really want to see it succeed, because that would allow me to spread my skills to a wider array of customers. Unfortunately, in its current state, MONO is only a partial implementation of .NET 1. And honestly: .NET 1 was garbage, and the vast majority of software that had the unfortunate badluck of being developped under it have been upgraded to the excellent .NET 2 by now (it is rare that apps get updated that quickly, for example between different java version.).

And now with .NET 3 out (which is only an extension of .NET 2, not an actual new version of the framework...dumbass marketing idiots at microsoft), .NET 2 is even more important.

Re:Indeed. (2, Informative)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799648)

Ok, before someone wacks me with a stick. Seems like Mono after all does have partial .NET 2 features. They should be careful though...I see on their roadmap ASP.NET 2.0... while C# and such are under ECMA standards (I beleive), ASP.NET technologies are partially patented and not given out as a standard for anyone to play with. Playing with fire there.

.NET 3 (2, Insightful)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799712)

its not just an 'extension', its a vehicle to kill off pre XP machines.

Re:.NET 3 (0, Troll)

maxume (22995) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800914)

Yeah, those jerks at Microsoft kill binary compatibility with almost every release. Sure, having the source so you can recompile is better, but Microsoft has done a pretty good job with making old stuff work on new stuff.

I guess you are complaining about new stuff not working on old stuff, but I wouldn't be working real hard on supporting people on anything less than a pIII either.

Re:.NET 3 (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801050)

The difference in support from XP to 2000 is minimal. It was a management decision not to support 2000 ( actually, the plan wasnt to back port to XP either and force everyone to vista/2003, but that plan fell thru due to a tad bit of common sense ) in order to kill the product off. It was not a techincal decision.

2000 is a viable, stable useable product, and the fact people dont 'have' to upgrade cuts into their bottom line. This was seen as a way to get those users to upgrade.

Its not like i was complaining they arent supporting it on 98 or something.

Re:.NET 3 (1)

maxume (22995) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801224)

Yeah, I still have windows 2000 running on my other computer. It's a pII-333. Two things though: Microsoft doesn't consider win2k viable, they aren't selling it much. Also, supporting 2k or not is at least slightly a technical decision, depending on whether you consider expending qa resources a technical decision. It is very much a financial decision(income expense), but anybody doing business knows to expect that from other businesses.

Microsoft could have gone on supporting windows 2000 for a long time, it is pretty solid. I'm not upset that they don't though, XP is a lot nicer, assuming it is running on reasonable hardware, which most people(especially the ones Microsoft cares about) end up purchasing every 5 years or so anyway. I guess there is some merit to not wanting to spend $50 extra(or $100, etc.) for an updated OS with the new hardware, but it doesn't bother me very much.

Mostly, I'm not real convinced that the .net3 experience would be all that good on older hardware, and I'm not surprised that Microsoft doesn't care about people that want to move their older os to new hardware; the benefits of upgrading are real, more stuff 'just works' and the like.

And yes, they could spend the money on improving old stuff, but Microsoft is really, really good at making a profit, so perhaps they see marketing upgrades as a more profitable venture than giving them away for free. The linux people have it right, if you don't like it, move on.

Indeed, this is NOT NEWS (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799960)

People around here are acting like Mono supports WinForms for the first time.

Apparently, these people either never heard of Mono before, or assumed it was an STD. Really, nothing has changed -- it's just getting a little better and a little more complete. Basically, it's like Wine, only it might take on a life of its own outside of simply allowing Windows programs to work elsewhere.

I doubt it, though. Right now, my money's on Perl6.

Re:Indeed, this is NOT NEWS (1)

ClamIAm (926466) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800352)

Apparently, these people either never heard of Mono before, or assumed it was an STD.

Well, when you think about the potential of getting fscked by an MS patent, the two seem sorta similar...

Remember kids, practice safe hex!

Re:Indeed. (0, Offtopic)

rkcth (262028) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800788)

I'm a developer who uses both .NET 3.0 and previous version. I'm very glad that they decided to call it .Net 3.0 and not just an extension to 2.0. It makes it much easier to explain to customers.

Seriously, the memory thing is pretty bad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16799620)

I just bought a new laptop with 2 gigs of RAM. I kinda want to have that for increased performance when I need it. Not just to let developers write heavier apps.

We can all live in pease (1)

martin_b1sh0p (673005) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799638)

Were I work we are a half MS shop and half Unix like shop (i.e. VxWorks and Linux). I personally started out on the MS side, but I'm not on the embedded unix side. Since I've seen both sides of the coin I keep trying to tell everyone here that we can all live together in peace. But my comments always fall on deaf ears. Maybe now they'll start to believe me. p.s. is this first post??? No Way.

Re:We can all live in pease (1)

martin_b1sh0p (673005) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799664)

Ugh I was so excited to perhaps get first post that I just realized my post is full of typos....Were = Where and I'm not should be I'm now. Anyway, you get the point.

Nono (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16799650)

This is Monkey business.

Good for development purposes? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16799656)

Anyone have success using Linux/mono to develop ASP web apps that will be deployed to MS servers? I may need to work on a legacy ASP app and was hoping to be able to do it on my Linux pc.

Re:Good for development purposes? (2, Informative)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800478)

legacy ASP can run on Linux using third party tools. However, Mono, as far as I can tell, is unrelated to it. ASP and ASP.NET are about as close to each other as Java is to Javascript.

What about shady Novell-Microsoft dealing? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16799668)

Until we know all the details of that shady Novell-Microsoft deal [groklaw.net] we are planning to avoid anything that relies on Novell, as much as possible.

Personally, I'd go further and say this is Microsoft language designed to kill the GPL and the FOSS development method, whether consciously or unconsciously. Why? Because if you can't share your software with anyone for fear of a patent infringement lawsuit, in what sense is it GPL? How are you part of a community, all building a common pool of code anyone can freely use? That is one of the main purposes of putting software under the GPL in the first place. It's also why Linux development was so much faster than proprietary software development ever can be. So who is going to stay within the lines of this so-called safety from being sued by Microsoft? Obviously nobody in the FOSS community. Microsoft gets to claim it has offered something wonderful, but in reality no one can actually benefit from its pledge without ceasing to be a member of the FOSS community.

On the other hand, I do hope Sun will release Java under GPL soon.

Sharp Develop (2, Interesting)

dedalus2000 (704571) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799708)

so does this mean sharp develop will now run on mono?

Re:Sharp Develop (1)

oohshiny (998054) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800614)

Of course, Linux has MonoDevelop, which is great for developing Linux apps and can be used for developing Windows apps.

However, I think there is some merit to the question. Sharpdevelop on Linux could be a good choice when people need to develop applications targetted at Windows, but when they prefer developing on Linux. The advantage of Sharpdevelop for that purpose would be that its primary platform is Windows, so you're less likely to incorporate Linux-specific features in your apps. (In a sense, Mono is the embrace-and-extend strategy of the Linux community.)

So, does anybody know whether Sharpdevelop runs on Mono 1.2?

Re:Sharp Develop (4, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800716)

SharpDevelop currently uses Windows.Forms 2.0, which Mono currently does not support.

We will start work on Winforms 2.0 soon, SharpDevelop should work when Mono 2.0 comes out.

Re:Sharp Develop (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16800740)

> SharpDevelop should work when Mono 2.0 comes out.

Will that be before or after your pals at Microsoft start suing end-users?

Query: (1)

Morphine007 (207082) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799824)

I haven't really been following Mono, or .NET, but upon reading this I was suddenly reminded of the story from a couple days ago about Novel and Microsoft getting into bed together. [slashdot.org]

Now, I'm sure a number of anti-microsoft fanboi-types will automatically jump all over this, but I'm hoping that someone who isn't a member of that group can explain to me if .Net (and sorta by extension, Mono) is a big enough deal to Microsoft that they would worm their way into this solely for the purposes of shitcanning Mono. Is it big enough? Is it possible? Would they even want to?

Re:Query: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16800602)

I don't believe "shitcanning" Mono was ever the plan, if FOSS developers had taken the Mono bait then MS would have exerted it's patent rights and claimed ownership of desktop linux. The FOSS community always regarded Mono with Ackbar-like astuteness, so MS and Novell changed the original plan and now we trust them even less.

Be careful who you kiss.

Re:Query: (1)

McNihil (612243) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801264)

I wouldn't say that they need to. Mono (and my experiences with beagled) is a dog.. pun intended too.

What Microsoft could do is to actually make a fast runtime for Linux so it can compete against Java.

Microsoft is ~8 year behind though if they wanted that so its most probably moot.

Here's a better suggestion... (1, Insightful)

Chabil Ha' (875116) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799868)

Dump VB.NET in exchange for C#. You'll get more supporters on an open source system if you move to language that more closely resembles C, C++, Java. Sure they're compatible on a Windows box, but C# seems like a better choice between the two on Linux.

Re:Here's a better suggestion... (4, Insightful)

thechronic (892545) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800152)

One of the major points of the .NET framework is having multiple languages being able to compile to same bytecode. The implementation of Mono or .NET has nothing to do with which high-level languages utilize it, therefore dumping VB.NET over C# doesn't buy you anything. In fact, having more languages to choose from encourages development using Mono...and if you don't like VB or C# or managed C++, you can make your own language, as long as it can be described by the semantics of the CLR.

Re:Here's a better suggestion... (1)

maxume (22995) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801300)

It buys you C# coders...

Re:Here's a better suggestion... (2, Insightful)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800458)

The "real" .NET framework supports C/C++, but also a total of, at last count, 44 languages (give or take a few since last i checked). Removing any of them really goes against the whole idea.

Re:Here's a better suggestion... (1)

Chabil Ha' (875116) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800738)

The idea is not to remove them, but to place greater emphasis on C like languages. In my opinion, emphasizing .NET C++/C# increases the maintainability of the code because there is a lower learning curve associated with them. Going from C++ and Java to C# was a snap because most of the syntax was the same. Granted, there were a couple of things that kinda chaffed, like the capitalization of methods ( Foo.Bar(int baz); ) Aside from that and a few others, it wasn't a bad transition at all, when compared to VB.

Re:Here's a better suggestion... (1)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800846)

Makes sense. I felt like they were putting a lot of emphasis on C#, though. The case of methods is indeed a bit confusing. Microsoft tends to make its environments with Visual Studio in mind, so most .NET developers actualy never notice, since Intellisense catches it all. When you have to edit code in VIM though because you're at the customer's site and you realise there's a bug in your code behind (which can be modified without having to recompile manually), and you fight to figure out the case, its a mess, hahaha.

That being said, VB.NET is literally... Casting is done with CType(object,type) instead of (Type)object, conditionals and loops use words instead of brackets, and you have a few syntax sugars that are totally optional, and...thats about it, really. Most .NET programmers tend to be able to switch between the two on the fly without much notice, from my experience. The two languages are really just there for handling different legacy code more than anything, as they are heavily redundant.

Good news (1)

A Friendly Troll (1017492) | more than 7 years ago | (#16799950)

I develop ASP.NET apps at work. I truly like the platform, and chose it myself when given green light by the boss to start on the project; I could choose any OS+platform, but I needed to get away from incompetent coworkers who (ab)use PHP (in other words, I needed peace, quiet, and well-written code - I couldn't have that unless I did it all by myself). Before I leave the company, I can tweak the apps to work with Mono, so the people in my department can take them over for maintenance on the Linux servers (there shouldn't be any more coding required, so they shouldn't have a big chance to screw things up).

Really good news. I hope we will see more cross-OS-platform apps in the future.

oh noes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16799956)


its a .TRAP!

Whats wrong with Java? (0, Offtopic)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800060)

It uses less memory than Mono and has very mature gui compoenents in swing and awt that just work across platforms.

Re:Whats wrong with Java? (1)

adinu79 (860333) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800204)

Don't get me started on java, the most resource hungry platform I've ever seen in my life.

I personally have been using mono for the last 2 years, mainly for Web Service Creation and it was so easy to integrate with Winforms Clients that wanted to consume them. The release of Mono 1.2 means a lot of code I had running on Windows can now be executed without modifications on Linux. Well, I guess I can say that we have a completely portable Application at this moment, which makes me very happy.

BTW, I live in Europe, and if we don't let our greedy politicians get bought up by the American greedy corporations, I will be able to not give a dead rat's ass by any patent that MS wants to throw at me.

Re:Whats wrong with Java? (1, Informative)

Tony (765) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800552)

Don't get me started on java, the most resource hungry platform I've ever seen in my life.

You obviously haven't used .Net, then, nor Mono, which is worse.

Java is a tiny little resource-miser compared to .Net, and Mono is worse than .Net for resources.

But you are right. Java is no slim jim compared to even C++ or Objective-C, let alone pure C.

Re:Whats wrong with Java? (2, Interesting)

SnprBoB86 (576143) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800870)

FUD.

My anicdotal evidence suggests that .net's memory consumption is very reasonable and we all have anicdotal evidence that Java is a memory hog.

Let's see some benchmarks to support your claims.

Re:Whats wrong with Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16800844)

swt

Re:Whats wrong with Java? (3, Informative)

Ash-Fox (726320) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800540)

It uses less memory than Mono and has very mature gui compoenents in swing and awt that just work across platforms.
I still have problems with awt under Mac OS X's Java framework. So many years and still the same problems exist.

I don't care if the code is aged, I want it to work.

Re:Whats wrong with Java? (4, Informative)

oohshiny (998054) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800568)

It uses less memory than Mono

I get a 22M RSS (280M total) for a Java application showing a single JButton in a JFrame; I get 7M RSS (22M total) for the same Gtk# application.

and has very mature gui compoenents in swing and awt that just work across platforms.

When I run a Swing application with Gtk LAF on my Linux box using Sun Java 5, it fails to pick up the Gtk theme I'm using, the menu buttons disappear when I click on them (because foreground/background seem to fail to pick up the right colors) and the menu shortcuts use the wrong font and wrong text. And that's just for starters. There is nothing "mature" about Java 5 on Linux, nor does it work in any form.

Java has its place in the world, and so does Mono, and they largely don't overlap.

Re:Whats wrong with Java? (1)

oohshiny (998054) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800638)

Oops, I meant "nor does it 'just work' in any form". What I'm saying is: Java runs cross-platform, but the user experience is bad and a lot of things don't work quite right.

Re:Whats wrong with Java? (1)

Ant P. (974313) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801010)

A lot of cross-platform interfaces are pretty terrible. All the Mozilla-based apps I have use an apparently random mix of GTK controls, things that look like GTK but aren't on closer inspection, and other stuff that's something completely different, and the resulting mush just about manages to pass for a native GTK app. And that's an example of a GOOD cross-platform interface where they've actually tried to blend in with the OS!

Misleading title, support is still incomplete. (2, Informative)

kelk1 (660671) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800120)

From mono 1.20 release notes:

ADO.NET, ASP.NET, System.Configuration, and Windows.Forms only contain partial support for 2.0 APIs, full support will only be available in Mono 2.0.

How partial is that support?

First try:

$ mono Test.exe

** (Test.exe:6411): WARNING **: Missing method System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem::set_ImageTrans parentColor(Color) in assembly /usr/lib/mono/gac/System.Windows.Forms/2.0.0.0__b7 7a5c561934e089/System.Windows.Forms.dll, referenced in assembly /path/to/Test.exe

Unhandled Exception: System.MissingMethodException: Method not found: 'System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.set_ImageTrans parentColor'.
    at
    at kk1.Test.Test..ctor () [0x00000]
    at (wrapper remoting-invoke-with-check) kk1.Test.Test:.ctor ()
    at kk1.Test.Program.Main () [0x00000]

Second try:

$ mono /mnt/win/Program\ Files/kk1/anotherprog.exe
Segmentation fault (core dumped)

So it seems that the header should really be "Mono now PARTIALLY supports WinForms".

Appropriately enough, the confirmation word is "roughly"

Re:Misleading title, support is still incomplete. (4, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800750)

The Winforms application that you tried to run is a 2.0 Winforms application, as the error reports: /usr/lib/mono/gac/System.Windows.Forms/2.0.0.0__b7 7a5c561934e089/System.Windows.Forms.dll, referenced in assembly /path/to/Test.exe

Re:Misleading title, support is still incomplete. (2, Insightful)

ir (104) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800834)

That EXE file extension is a humourous anachronism on Unix. Now I know how the Mac people feel....

Novell Sell Linux Out, But They're Our Friend (1)

mrmdls (684047) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800192)

Let me guess, It's okay by the press for Novell to sell us out to Microsoft (and we're suppose to get warm fuzzy feelings about Mono) because the press states they still have a love fest with Novell... But, It's not OK for Sun or any other company to have survived to have signed an Agreement with the Evil Empire. Oh hell, I forgot about Apple, back awhile ago..........That ruins my thoughts.

No thank you (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16800382)

Given Novells recent faustian pact, you may as well just buy Windows to run your .NET apps. Thanks to fucking Novell we could all end up paying an MS tax anyway.

Mono is malware, a way for MS to infect unix and the Novell/Microsoft deal just underlines the fact.

Who gives a shit? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16800526)

Mono will always be playing catch-up, if you want to do .net you should just drink the microsoft kool-aid..

How do you uninstall Mono? (0, Offtopic)

pair-a-noyd (594371) | more than 7 years ago | (#16800670)

I took a shot at removing Mono from a Suse 10.0 (retail) system and it informed me that removing it would break almost every package.

Mono is latched into Suse like a tick. Can it be removed at all?
Or do I need to just reinstall from scratch and deselect mono during the setup?

I really resent this entire situation.
I do NOT want M$ compatibility or inter-operability.
I LIKE the incompatibility and non inter-operability. To me, that's the best thing about Linux.

Re:How do you uninstall Mono? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16800962)

You apparently have no idea what Mono is. Come back and complain when you get a clue.

A framework of our own? (2, Interesting)

caudron (466327) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801090)

I'm a developer. I've made considerable money as a .NET developer, specifically, and while I am fully entrenched in the Free Software camp, I admit that I like the.NET framework overall. That said ... ...The open source community has some of the best and brightest minds in the software world involved in its improvement. So the question that naturally follows is, "Why haven't we designed and implemented our own framework?"

Seriously, we spend endless hours debating which is less evil---java or mono---and we complain that both don't offer us the flexibility we have grown accustomed to in the F/OSS world, so why haven't we just started from scratch and done our own linux-centric framework to ease RAD work and simplify the task of getting started in Linux development.

I'm not suggesting it has a place everywhere. Certainly most kernel work and most driver work would need to stay C-based, but if we had a framework designed from the ground up to open Gnome and KDE devlopment (well, userspace development in general, really) it would get used. There's obviously a market for it. Developers argue over Java and .NET/Mono endlessly as to which is best for Linux development, which is faster, which is easier, which is just plain better. Write in whatever language you want, but write to the framework that best opens Linux up the developer. Without question, that would be the framework that was written specifically for it.

I dunno. There may be good reasons, but I don't see them from my vantage point.

Til I see a solid and Free alternative, I'm gonna stick with Mono (which I'm impressed with so far), but I'll keep my eye out.

Tom Caudron
http://tom.digitalelite.com/ [digitalelite.com]

Re:A framework of our own? (1)

Ash-Fox (726320) | more than 7 years ago | (#16801170)

So the question that naturally follows is, "Why haven't we designed and implemented our own framework?"
Python is one.
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