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More Next-Gen Console Smack-Talk

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the because-that-never-gets-old dept.

Microsoft 123

With the PS3 now out the door in Japan, Nintendo and Microsoft are engaging in what is essentially the last moment for smack talk before everyone's cards are on the table in the U.S. On Microsoft's part, they're complaining in Europe that they want to go head-to-head with the PS3, and can't until next year. Xbox EU Boss Neil Thompson says: "In a lot of ways we'd like people to put the system side-by-side and see whether people want a platform where they're paying for Blu-ray straight away." Meanwhile, Nintendo is taking shots at both companies, saying that the next-gen DVD format war is bad for consumers. Says Nintendo Canada's Pierre-Paul Trépanier: "I think forcing a decision on consumers would certainly not be part of Nintendo's strategy, because we want to get more people into gaming and we want to make it affordable. Forcing people to adopt a technology and a model that's proprietary and still not established is unfair to gamers."

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I do not think it means what you think it means (5, Interesting)

Control Group (105494) | more than 7 years ago | (#16825946)

I don't see how M. Trépanier's comments qualify as "taking shots at both companies." He's saying that forcing unproven, proprietary formats on consumers is a bad decision. As far as I know, only Sony is "forcing" such a format. The HD-DVD add on to the 360 is just that, an add on, and won't even be used for game content (unless there's been news to the contrary that I've missed...?). So the 360 is using DVD as the medium for its core functionality (games), just like the Wii is.

(Or is it "Wii are"?)

Either way, I'm going to be one of the losers in line hoping for a Wii this weekend. Hopefully, the combination of deer season and a Wisconsin November will keep them short for me.

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means (1)

bym051d (980242) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826010)

That's exactly what it means. But look at it this way, if Blu-Ray fails, your PS3 is still an incredible game machine. If HDDVD fails, your XBOX360 add-on is a useless piece of plastic. Obviously, Sony is pushing Blu-Ray because of the upside for their A/V business. Obviously Microsoft is doing the same with HDDVD since they're one of the founders (and because Sony supports the other).

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means (2, Insightful)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826212)

"But look at it this way, if Blu-Ray fails, your PS3 is still an incredible game machine."

But with the 360 you have the option of waiting to see how it will all shake out. With the PS3 YOU HAVE TO BUY the Blue-Ray.

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means (3, Insightful)

Control Group (105494) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826222)

But you're comparing the PS3 to the HD-DVD add on, which just doesn't hold water. If Blu-Ray fails, the PS3 is still a great games machine. If HD-DVD fails, the 360 is still a great games machine.

What you're doing is equivalent to: "if Blu-Ray fails, the PS3 is still a great games machine, but if HD-DVD fails, your Toshiba HD-DVD player is a useless piece of plastic." The two statements are unrelated, except that the HD-DVD add on for the 360 is cheaper than the Toshiba was in the first place - so, if anything, you're better off with the add on (assuming you've got a 360).

Sony opened themselves up for this by including the Blu-Ray drive as part of the core machine. MS avoided this by making it an add on. By the same token, of course, Sony has set themselves up to be successful if/when game developers start utilizing the extra storage capacity of the format, while MS has precluded themselves from so doing.

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means (1)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826320)

The proper response was:

o_O i c wut u did thar.

It actually sums up everything you said and also jabs them a bit about their inability to think it through. I quite like it.

Format Wars and Useless Plastic (1)

norminator (784674) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826394)

But look at it this way, if Blu-Ray fails, your PS3 is still an incredible game machine. If HDDVD fails, your XBOX360 add-on is a useless piece of plastic.

But the question is, does the Blu-Ray make the PS3 an incredible game machine, or is it the other technologies (cell, etc.)? If the Blu-Ray isn't adding that much to the gaming experience, then it's just adding extra cost to the customer. Some people are saying that developers are already filling Blu-Ray discs for individual games, but I wonder if that's because they're just not compressing anything, or what the deal is... I haven't heard any complaints that the XB360 discs are filling too easily, though, so is the expense of Blu-Ray really worth it?

Also, I understand what you mean about the HD-DVD add-on for the XBox, but at least that $200 cost is optional. It's just for watching movies, so if you are worried about HD-DVD failing, you can not buy it at all. From a larger perspective of HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray, though, I feel comforted by the fact that HD-DVDs can be manufactured with a DVD side, so I could buy the HD-DVD discs now, even though I haven't moved up to a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player, and whatever happens in the format war, I'd still have the DVD disc at least, so it's not a total loss. Of course, when I was browsing the HD-DVD titles at Target the other day, I didn't see any that made use of the hybrid DVD feature, so that may be a moot point anyway.

Obviously Microsoft is doing the same with HDDVD since they're one of the founders (and because Sony supports the other).

I believe Microsoft was not a founder or original member of the HD-DVD group at all, but that they aligned themselves with HD-DVD later on. I could be wrong, though.

Re:Format Wars and Useless Plastic (2, Informative)

7Prime (871679) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828166)

Correct, Microsoft has nothing to do with the HD-DVD standard. HD-DVD is largely a Toshiba endevour. Microsoft did, however, throw themselves entirely behind Toshiba in this, so they have quite a bit to lose if it doesn't pan out.

Re:Format Wars and Useless Plastic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16828960)

One of the reasons why I don't want a HD-DVD unit is that it's base on some proprietary and incompatible Microsoft codec.

Re:Format Wars and Useless Plastic (2, Insightful)

amuro98 (461673) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828232)

What it really comes down to is:

IF Blu-Ray is successful, then the PS3 has a big leg up, as it already includes the means to play Blu-ray movies.

IF, on the other hand, Blu-Ray is not successful, Sony must still support it for the PS3, just as Sony must still support UMD for the PSP because both mediums didn't just play movies, but are used for software (the games) as well.

Sony is gambling that the higher prices NOW will pay off in the future by launching Blu-ray into millions of homes, striking a large blow against HD-DVD.

As for games, it's yet to be shown how Blu-Ray adds anything to them, other than providing tons of extra space for those long, beautifully rendered, non-interactive CGI movies Square so loves using in their Final Fantasy games and other RPGs. I've not heard of any game filling a Blu-Ray disc. Supposedly the developers of 'Resistance...' were claiming each level was going to use up 4GB of space on the Blu-Ray disc, but later it was shown the entire game fit into 12GB (down from their initial claims of 24GB) While still larger than a dual-layered DVD, there's not much real information on how that space is being utilized (is it multiple versions of the cutscenes? is it uncompressed texture and graphical data? etc.)

Personally, I could care less what format the games used. And I'm not going to get interested in next-gen DVDs until the format war has gone away, or multi-format players are readily available and under $500. I figure that's a good 2 years away.

--
Win cash and giftcards just for clicking your mouse!
http://www.netwinner.com/?signupCode=amuro98 [netwinner.com]

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826922)

That's exactly what it means. But look at it this way, if Blu-Ray fails, your PS3 is still an incredible game machine. If HDDVD fails, your XBOX360 add-on is a useless piece of plastic. Obviously, Sony is pushing Blu-Ray because of the upside for their A/V business. Obviously Microsoft is doing the same with HDDVD since they're one of the founders (and because Sony supports the other).

And if neither fails? Then you have to buy the one you didn't get anyway, or miss out on half of the movies.

Or you wait until a dual-format player becomes available. Frankly I see both the PS3-as-Blu-Ray-player and xbox HDDVD add-on as dead-ends. Both have roughly equal levels of support and neither proponent is going to simply give up as soon as their opponent gains a slight market share advantage. Therefore we'll end up with a divided market, one part HD-DVD, one part Blu-Ray. At which point they either relax the license restrictions against dual-format players, or they accept that their formats will never become mass-market. The early adopters with enough money to blow on an HD setup today may be willing and able to afford two players, but no way will the average consumer buy an HD player that plays half of new releases nor will they shell out for two players to replace their one DVD. I expect that either dual-format players will be released, or HD formats will remain a niche market until at least the next generation.

Which means in terms of the current choices, I see the xbox hddvd as being the most useless, since all it does is play half of next-gen movie content. PS3, as you say, at least plays games. Which it could have done without Blu Ray, leading back into the "why does my PS3 cost so much?" discussion.

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827470)

And if neither fails? Then you have to buy the one you didn't get anyway, or miss out on half of the movies.

Aside from exclusives intended to push one format or the other, do you really think that the majority of movies will be coming out on only one HD format?

Which means in terms of the current choices, I see the xbox hddvd as being the most useless, since all it does is play half of next-gen movie content.

All Blu-Ray does is play half of next-gen movie content (actually more than half) and allow developers to be lazy, wasting space. Any content that needs to be streamed off the disc usually has to be compressed, because the data transfer rate is slow (and these are first-generation, extra-slow devices) and if you want the data to come quickly, assuming you can decompress it quickly enough, compressing it to half the size is like doubling your transfer rate.

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827786)

Aside from exclusives intended to push one format or the other, do you really think that the majority of movies will be coming out on only one HD format?

Right. The studios could also get around the fatal split-market problem by releasing all their movies in both formats. I notice that some already are released in both, but some of the biggest studios are backers of a single format. Multi-format releases are not a great solution anyway, because it increases costs for movie studios who have to press two versions, complicates supply management for the retailers and increases their shelf space requirements, and it complicates things for consumers because they have to buy the right version for their player (so they have to know and care what version they use, as do any friends/relatives intending to buy them an HD movie as a gift). Dual format players solve all these problems because consumers buy the one "next gen DVD player" and then don't have to care what format movies come in. This is why I think dual-format is what the market will settle on, because it's the only one that doesn't present extra barriers to acceptance.

All Blu-Ray does is play half of next-gen movie content (actually more than half) and allow developers to be lazy, wasting space.

The percentage of movies played isn't the point, it's that if you want to play Hit X you might need HD-DVD and to play Blockbuster Y you might need Blu-Ray.

But yeah, developers get to be lazier. Isn't that what all technology advancements are for? :)

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means (1)

GreyyGuy (91753) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828514)

If Blu-Ray fails, then there will never been an increase in Blu-Ray production, meaning that the component price will not drop nearly as quickly as expected (if at all), and it is possible that since it would then be a niche item that it might even increase in price. As would the games that need to be produced on Blu-Ray discs that no one else would be using.

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means (5, Insightful)

HappySqurriel (1010623) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826104)

Nintendo is a very classy company by most standards and tends not to make (unreasonable) negative comments about their competition; in almost all cases of negative comments made by Nintendo about their competition you can interpret what they're saying as "We respect what are competition is trying to do, but we do not believe that this is the best strategy for Nintendo to try to achieve our goals at this time". On another note, it is always interesting to watch reporters get Nintendo to talk trash about Sony and Microsoft; you'll see someone ask Nintendo whether they think that it was a huge mistake for Sony to release so few PS3s in Japan and Nintendo would say "We understand the difficulty of maintaining a decent supply of systems, but our goal is to try to expand the market and we believe that the best strategy for that is to ensure that someone can buy our console in a store for the MSRP" ... or something like that

It's all about having space for game content. (1)

MikeFM (12491) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827878)

So the PS3 has enough room to provide massive content in it's games.. and XBox and Wii don't. To me that's all I need to know. What's the point of a next gen console that can't even provide more detailed and massive enviroments to game in? A graphics boost is nice as is improved controllers but I want better gameplay and that means more data available to the games, better physics, better AI, etc.

I'll get a PS3 but I have no plan at all to upgrade my movie buying to HD-DVD or Blue-Ray or to use my next gen console for playing movies. The biggest deciding factor for me as to when I will switch to a HD movie format is when the format is cracked so that the security measures no longer work. I won't buy movies I can't copy and modify (removing menus, etc).

Re:It's all about having space for game content. (2, Insightful)

7Prime (871679) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828392)

Physics, AI, etc. have almost NOTHING to do with disc capacity. These things are dry code, which takes up an insignificant amount of drive space. A good 95% or more of a disc goes into graphics and sound. Code for most contemporary games could still fit in an N64 cartridge. Maybe this is an exaduration, but not by much. All the disc capacity is for is for "pretty". Disc capacity has NO overarching effect on gameplay, WHAT SO EVER. Now, I'm not saying that disc capacity is pointless. Graphics and sound enhance the atmosphere of the game, making it more immersive if used well (which most HD games, I would argue, do not). So if it's gameplay you are concerned about, do not worry, the Wii will probably have the best gameplay (AI, Physics, etc.) since companies are being persuaded to concentrate more on that than "oooh... pretty".

This is coming from a person who thinks that the game with the best graphics, that I've ever seen, is Okami, a PS2 game. I don't believe that most developers have come to terms with the graphical capabilities that they had with the last generation, let alone the current one. Graphics are only as good as the artistic vision of the creators. Although, I will admit that Shadow of the Collosus is one example of a game made painful because the creators surpassed the capabilities of the machine, and the game was increadibly choppy because of it.

Re:It's all about having space for game content. (0)

MikeFM (12491) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828710)

Maps and a wide range of objects DOES take up disc capacity. If you want massive worlds you can spend hundreds or thousands of hours exploring you need the disc space to store all the information. Maybe you're happy with repetitive textures and a limited number of different objects but I love to see huge and diverse worlds. You can have diverse and flexible AI by using that disc space to put many different personalities (or whatever you want to call different AI) in the game. The bare executables may not take that much space but you need all kinds of information to make those executables do something interesting. Making executables do something interesting is what makes gameplay interesting.

I want to see games so large and interactive that I can spend years just wandering around discovering new things. I'm thinking of games like GTA except where every building is accessible and you can explore every room and play with objects and meet people and everything is unique. When you reach city limits you should be able to get in a car and drive to the enxt town over and explore it too. They need to be able to cram a full world on a disc.

The Wii doesn't have the processing power for impressive physics or AI let alone enough disc space to really make full-sized worlds. If anything the PS3 is still underpowered and doesn't have enough disc capacity and it leads the pack.

Re:It's all about having space for game content. (1)

Yvan256 (722131) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831212)

Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2 are good examples of huge worlds to explore, but each game fits onto a small DVD for the Gamecube.

If those worlds aren't big enough, then try Final Fantasy XI. This game is huge, the maps are numerous and quite huge too, not to mention dungeons, etc. And it still fits on a regular DVD-ROM, even with 3 expansion packs.

I'm still predicting the same old "let's fill the rest of the disc with FMV" crap, even though this new generation should be able to render cut-scenes in real-time (even the previous was able to do that, and the one before that too, to a certain point).

Re:It's all about having space for game content. (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831612)

Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2 are good examples of huge worlds to explore, but each game fits onto a small DVD for the Gamecube.

Although I would agree, we're talking with someone who's on a whole different level of "need to walk everywhere" syndrome. Did you notice his "like GTA but where I can walk into every building" comment? I mean, sure it would be nice... but... why? If the creators did that, then they won't have the time to put any time into making those buildings interesting, or at all inspired. You're basically asking a group of game designers to recreate New York City for you. Fuck disc capacity, the design capacity just isn't there. Why not have designers concentrate on smaller things that they can put a lot of subtlety and creativity into? The last thing I want to have happen is designers creating an endless amount of content while sacrificing any kind of artistry or creative thought. There's always a price to pay.

I suggest, to this guy, that he try playing Metroid Prime, which, although probably not up to your graphical standards, has an incredible amount of thought put into every room in the game, to the point where it's extremely interesting to explore, even just a small area. On the flip side, most urban architecture is quite boring. Sky scrapers basically repeat the same floor over and over again for 80 stories, with subtle changes in interior layout. Do we really want this to become the new standard in video game design?

The "let me go everywhere" attitude is a bit selfish, IMHO. Games are an entertainment/art form like anything else... sure they're interactive, but within the confines of the vision the creators wanted to portray. It's like if I wrote a symphony, just to have one of the audience members yell at me because they want to hear their favorite musical theme in retrograde inversion performed on the english horn and harmonized by the horns and low strings. There's an infinte amount of variation, but, I mean... gaahhhh... doth one not appreciate the art of editing? I mean, exploration is one of my favorite aspects in games, but only if there's something WORTH exploring. Wind Waker gave me a huge world with nothing but endless, repeatitive, open water... geee, that was FUN.

Re:It's all about having space for game content. (1)

Control Group (105494) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828452)

That's all well and good, to be sure...but what does it have to do with my comment, that Nintendo's criticism only applies to the PS3, not to both the PS3 and the 360, as the blurb indicates?

Re:It's all about having space for game content. (3, Interesting)

HappySqurriel (1010623) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828560)

So the PS3 has enough room to provide massive content in it's games.. and XBox and Wii don't. To me that's all I need to know. What's the point of a next gen console that can't even provide more detailed and massive enviroments to game in? A graphics boost is nice as is improved controllers but I want better gameplay and that means more data available to the games, better physics, better AI, etc.

I'll get a PS3 but I have no plan at all to upgrade my movie buying to HD-DVD or Blue-Ray or to use my next gen console for playing movies. The biggest deciding factor for me as to when I will switch to a HD movie format is when the format is cracked so that the security measures no longer work. I won't buy movies I can't copy and modify (removing menus, etc).


In the previous generation (PS2/XBox/Gamecube) most of the games produced easily fit on a single layered DVD, with only a few requiring a double layered DVD and (almost) none requiring multiple dual layered DVDs; in fact, most games were easily ported to the Gamecube on its single layered (1.5GB) optical disc. The Wii (we assume) now has about 6 times as much storage as the Gamecube did without requiring much more data in game (because of it's modest graphics).

The XBox 360 may not have the storage capacity of the PS3 but that shouldn't be too big of a problem because FMV should be far less necessary on a next generation console (the few double layered DVD games for the PS2 were mostly filled with MPEG-2 encoded FMV) and the XBox 360 can handle much greater compression on FMV than the XBox could, the XBox 360 can handle greater texture compression than the XBox could, and most polygonal data can be stored as a spline on the disc and polygonalized in memory; I know someone will say that polygonalizing a spline would take longer but the reality is that (with how slow optical drives are) it is much faster to store a model as a spline and then polygonalize it then to load a polygonal model from disc.

Anyways, I'm not so sure you will see more detailed massive environments then are already being provided on the XBox 360. the more detailed the enviroment becomes, or the more massive it becomes, the more people are required to produce the content; if game budgets are already in the $20-$40 Million range (requiring 1 to 2 Million sales to break even) I doubt you will see many game budgets explode to $40-$80 Million (requiring 2 to 4 Million sales to break even) to produce your massive detailed worlds.

Re:It's all about having space for game content. (1)

MikeFM (12491) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828954)

Most games are crap anyway so I'd never think that most games will take full advantage of the system they are on. The really impressive ones though are the ones that push the system to the limits. A bunch of FMV isn't a very useful way to use disc capacity given the quality of graphics on next gen consoles but you have a lot of other possible uses for disc space.

I won't quite agree that more people are required to produce larger and more detailed enviroments. You only have to carefully craft the parts that are important to gameplay. Even that isn't that important given the open nature of many of today's games. Most of the expanded maps and certain ranges of objects can be produced algorithmicly. A lot of things such as textures, sounds, and object primitives can be copied from title to title. A little work on world-generation and source materials such as textures and developers can let game worlds largely create themselves if they have the processing power and disc capacity needed. The fun thing about such worlds is that you can end up with unexpected twists that developers may not expect and which gives players that explore the worlds chances for a lot of alternative ways to play the game.

It's harder and more expensive to develop in a limited system than it is when you can just throw more work at the processing power of the system and not worry about storage capacity.

Re:It's all about having space for game content. (1)

HappySqurriel (1010623) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829292)

I won't quite agree that more people are required to produce larger and more detailed enviroments. You only have to carefully craft the parts that are important to gameplay. Even that isn't that important given the open nature of many of today's games. Most of the expanded maps and certain ranges of objects can be produced algorithmicly. A lot of things such as textures, sounds, and object primitives can be copied from title to title. A little work on world-generation and source materials such as textures and developers can let game worlds largely create themselves if they have the processing power and disc capacity needed. The fun thing about such worlds is that you can end up with unexpected twists that developers may not expect and which gives players that explore the worlds chances for a lot of alternative ways to play the game.

It's harder and more expensive to develop in a limited system than it is when you can just throw more work at the processing power of the system and not worry about storage capacity


You're correct that you can produce content using an algorithm, but developing the algorithms is very expensive. At several universities the graphics programs are focused on procedural content generation of plants and trees; at one well known University they have been working on this problem for 10 years with several PHD researchers (and their students) and have yet to perfect the method. In the near future procedural content generation is (mostly) going to be very limited in scope.

Now, you could use greater power and greater resources to reduce the cost of game development (say if you continued to produce 2D games on the PS3 using SVG rather than pixelmaps) but that never happens. There is a reason why it is so much less expensive to produce a DS game compared to a PSP game, and why people are reporting that Wii games are so much cheaper than PS3 games, and that is mostly that you can say "it can't be done" when a marketing manager "asks" you to include into your game. When you have a limited scope, and limited requirements, in anything you produce you will usually have a much less expensive (much higher quality) product; greater resources tends to increase the scop and increase the requirements of any product and thus makes it much more difficut to produce.

Re:It's all about having space for game content. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16832284)

"In the previous generation (PS2/XBox/Gamecube) most of the games produced easily fit on a single layered DVD, with only a few requiring a double layered DVD and (almost) none requiring multiple dual layered DVDs; in fact, most games were easily ported to the Gamecube on its single layered (1.5GB) optical disc."

Actually, I read that Burnout 3 wasn't available on Cube purely because the media size was too small, and the game design required being able to play any level at any time (so disc swapping would have been very annoying). Other cross-platform games required more than one Cube disc, e.g. Resi 4 and Killer 7. This shows pretty clearly that the limit was reached in the lifetime of the Cube.

However, IMO it was worth it - the smaller discs allowed for higher speed and shorter load times. I hate load times.

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means (1)

Fozzyuw (950608) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828414)

Props, to my fellow Wisconsinite. Where you around for the snow store that blew through the SE on Friday? Just to let you know, Wal-Mart has listed in their latest flyer that they will sell at 12:01am the day of. They also claimed (strangely enough) that all stores will have a minimum of 20 Wii's and 10 PS3.

Good luck. I'll be at Wally World only to pickup 2 extra controllers, since GameStop isn't pre-ordering them anymore and I stupidly thought the classic controller was a stand-alone, when it's just a Wii mote attachment (oddly enough?).

Cheers,
Fozzy

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means (1)

Control Group (105494) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828566)

Sure was; got to watch that roll through pretty much just in time for me to leave my office in Madison.

Good to know on Wal-Mart. Looks like I'll be doing what I did when I picked up my 360 (albeit a couple months after launch): find a Wal-Mart that's halfway out in the sticks and take my chances. I expect 20 Wiis to last a lot longer in, say, Dousman than in Madison.

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means (1)

Kuukai (865890) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830516)

Actually, the medium used for core functionality is irrelevant. Nintendo's games have been on weirdass proprietary media since... forever... The only "format-pushing" is in the movie-playing function. Really though, each company has a decent justification: Microsoft isn't forcing you to buy it, and Sony's games will actually use it. Yes, the motive behind each offering is ultimately to get you to buy a bunch of movie discs in their format, but if you just ignore the entire format war you won't be too hurt. The Blu-Ray is a huge part of the cost of the PS3, but extra space might actually add to the gameplay experience... (No real telling either way yet, but it does have greater potential than DVD imo)

lets hope (0, Offtopic)

thejrwr (1024073) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826004)

lets just hope that the wii will have some good games, i could only find 5 games that i liked and those where muti-system anyway

Re:lets hope (1)

thejrwr (1024073) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826138)

edit:
lets just hope that the wii will have some good games, i could only find 5 Gamecube games that i liked and those where muti-system anyway

Re:lets hope (3, Funny)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826200)

i could only find 5 Gamecube games that i liked and those where muti-system anyway

I wasn't aware that Star Fox, Mario Party, Smash Brothers, Mario Kart, and F-Zero had been ported?

Re:lets hope (1)

HappySqurriel (1010623) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826366)

I don't know what types of games you like ... but here is a list of games that were pretty good

  • Star Wars: Rogue Squadren 2/Star Wars: Rogue Squadren 3
  • Super Smash Bros: Melee
  • The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker
  • Eternal Darkness
  • Resident Evil 0
  • Super Mario Sunshine
  • Pikmin
  • Animal Crossing
  • Metroid Prime/ Metroid Prime 2
  • F-Zero


None of those games were on the PS2/XBox 360 and all of them were enjoyable ...
Many games (like Resident Evil 4 and Soul Calibur 2) were best on the Gamecube ...

Re:lets hope (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828438)

Not to mention, it had two of the best RPGs of the generation: Tales of Symphonia and Skies of Arcadia (sure, a DreamCast port, but only after the DreamCast had died, and was greatly improved).

Re:lets hope (1)

cableshaft (708700) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828548)

Of the exclusives, I found four worth the purchase:

Super Mario Sunshine
Zelda: Four Swords
Super Smash Brothers
Mario Party 4

Then there were four others that were multi that i just happened to get for the GC:

Sonic Mega Collection
Viewtiful Joe
Alien Hominid
Super Monkey Ball 2

If I had paid more than $100 for the system I probably would have been really disappointed with my purchase. But I played these enough that I got my moneys worth, and some of the multi-platform titles were exclusives when I picked them up, and had influenced the purchase of the console. That said, that's still pretty bad considering I bought about three or four times more XBox games and even though I never owned a PS2 I purchased 4 games for that as well to play on friends' systems. Out of all the consoles I've owned, the Gamecube is the one I've purchased the least number of games for, and that's including the NES, which I had when I was 8-11 years old and only making about $5-$10 a week in allowance.

Re:lets hope (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16826170)

Wulfram 2 -- Free Online 3D game, Runs on a PII !

You know, after the release of the Wii, I will never look at the acronym for the Pentium II the same way again.

Re:lets hope (1)

thejrwr (1024073) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826318)

reminds me of Windows XP, *think chat smiles* XP

Re:lets hope (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827242)

Yeah, I remember way back when I first heard about it on IRC, they said "My dad just installed a beta Windows XP" and I said "Yeah, I hate windows too".

it still amuses me to think of it as "Windows Blech!"

Re:lets hope (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16826332)

i could only find 5 games that i liked and those where muti-system anyway

You don't like Zelda???

Re:lets hope (1)

thejrwr (1024073) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826352)

i do and i dont, i only like the older ones, the new "Wind Waker" kinda sucked

Re:lets hope (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16826442)

I'd rather it was actually affordable.

Re:lets hope (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16826676)

muti-system = ? ID10T.

Re:lets hope (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16826928)

If none of the games that you like on a Nintendo console are produced by Nintendo themselves, then I'm afraid that your taste in games is terrible.

Some good and some bad. (2, Insightful)

MikeFM (12491) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828072)

I bought Paper Mario a while back and I just have to say that I loath that game despite all the rav reviews I saw for it. It's boring with lame puzzles that require mostly trial and error or repetitive tasks than actual thought or skill and the dialog is so lame as to be a crime. I love the Mario family of games and RPG style games but Paper Mario is just a mockery of both.

I do like the Skies of Arcadia remake for Gamecube (a bit better than the Dreamcast version) and the Gamecube I think is the choice platform for party games. I think Nintendo is making a mistake by choosing a design for the Wii that looks more like the PlayStation instead of keeping the easily portable little cube design of the Gamecube.

I'd like to see Nintendo shrink the form factor of the Gamecube further and bring it's price down to around $50 as I think they could really hit the market for younger kids and party players if they did. Maybe add some Wii-like controllers while their at it. I think a smaller, cheaper, and improved Gamecube could sell better than the Wii. The Gameboy isn't all bells and whistles like the PSP but it consistantly sells better than the PSP and similar expensive rivals. I think the Wii price is to high for the market it's going after.

Re:Some good and some bad. (1)

Minced (871651) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831958)

Congratulations, you've described what the Wii basically is, a smaller GCN with remote support and slightly enhanced RAM and graphics. Thats it. Honestly it is, just go back and read other /. stories about developer responses.

The 'choice' (4, Insightful)

steveo777 (183629) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826206)

I think /. as a whole tends to agree with Trépanier. Don't FORCE proprietary media formats at us through a console. In the end it comes down to what the consumer spends their money on. A good percent of people know they're getting a Blu-Ray player and that it's non-gaming functionality directly competes with HD-DVD if they purchase a PS3. I'm sure a lot of them see the Blu-Ray as a bonus. But I'd say even more people are outraged that Sony is offering them a product that is overpriced because of functionality they don't want or need. The consumer has a right to be angry, too. I know I wanted to play the next Gran Turismo, but now I doubt I ever will.

Re:The 'choice' (1)

NineNine (235196) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827156)

You had it half right. Nobody knows what Blu-Ray is or that it's included in the PS3. But I'd also say that people aren't "angry" about the price. If people think it's too much, they just won't buy it. But, all of the armchair punditry in the world is all pointless. We'll see if they'll sell. Personally, I'm excited as hell about the PS3, and I'm buying one ASAP.

Re:The 'choice' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16827176)

. Don't FORCE proprietary media formats at us through a console

That's idiotic - Blu-Ray is the game format. Your complaining is as pointless as bitching about Sega "forcing" GDROM on people, or Nintendo with their endless array of proprietary cartridge formats. In other words, B-R is a fundamental part of the PS3 - and certainly 50GB is much better than the 9GB you get with DVD.

Not too mention that you're complaining about something as trivial as overpriced electronic games for children. You won't get to play some racing game? Christ, get over it.

Slashdot needs a serious sense of perspective.

Re:The 'choice' (1)

C0rinthian (770164) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827672)

There is a big difference between cartridge formats and Blu-Ray. Carts were all proprietary, and were never expected to become 'industry standard' for anything. Sony wants Blu-Ray to replace the DVD as the standard media format used by everyone, and they are using the PS3 to try and swing consumer interest to that format.

Carts were games only. Blu-Ray is a lot more than just games.

Re:The 'choice' (1)

tbannist (230135) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829510)

So Sony is "evil" because the format of their game storage mechanism *can* be used to play movies and *might* become a new standard.
They would be less "evil" if their format could not be used to play movies and therefore could not become a new standard?

Is this some new world where a console that costs just as much, but does less is better than the one that does more?

Sony screwed up on the Blu-Ray for sure, I'm sure they expected prices to have already fallen on the components when they started designing and building the PS3. But criticising them because it does play movies, just seems to be sour grapes.

Re:The 'choice' (1)

C0rinthian (770164) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829666)

I never passed judgement, just pointing out that you can't draw a comparison between the two.

Sony using their console to push their chosen standard makes perfect business sense. The PlayStation brand has a lot of leverage, and Sony would be stupid to not utilize that.

The real question will be if it works or not...

Re:The 'choice' (1)

hal2814 (725639) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828118)

"Your complaining is as pointless as bitching about Sega "forcing" GDROM on people"

From what I remember, Sega put a GD-ROM in the system and still sold it for $200 and sold games for $40 to $50 each. If the PS3 could do that with BluRay, then you'd hear no complaints.

"and certainly 50GB is much better than the 9GB you get with DVD."

Your definition of certainly differs from mine. If the games don't use that extra 41GB, then it's of no use and currently there aren't a whole lot of games that span more than 1 DVD. That may change but it may not. It's hardly "certain." I'd give you "likely" at best.

Re:The 'choice' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16828252)

Sega or nintendo never released mainstream movies on thier systems. So the argument is completely different.

Apples to oranges, IMHO.

Re:The 'choice' (1)

ThosLives (686517) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827278)

Don't FORCE proprietary media formats

An honest question: at what point do formats cease being 'proprietary' and become 'open'? At some point in history, even DVD was 'proprietary' - the average consumer did not have tools to generate content and store it on that medium. And what about the old cartridge-based consoles - those were 'proprietary' media as well, and not many people complained about that.

There is really nothing new about companies choosing different formats for their devices; I don't understand why there is so much deliberation at this particular instance. If it is a question of price, then the market bears that out.

I personally feel that all other discussion is really just people hearing themselves speak, because media choice doesn't have more than a secondary effect on quality of content (only where media limits data quantity and access rates is there an effect - the rest is up to the skill of the content creators).

Re:The 'choice' (1)

Sinistar2k (225578) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827714)

Actually, when the N64 stuck with the cartridge format, there was plenty of complaining. Publishers were hyped by the fact that pressing CDs for the PS1 was going to be incredibly cheap while publishing for the N64 required exorbitant royalty payments to Nintendo along with the high cost of cartridge manufacture.

Gamers complained, too, because the use of the cartridge jacked up the price of the games. It was not uncommon to drop $70 for a title, a price that now brings wailing and gnashing of teeth from the masses (even though it is now the normal price for "collector's edition" releases).

There were pro-cartridge folks. Their main argument in favor was the reduction of load times and the inherent durability of cartridges in the hands of children and clumsy adults.

Re:The 'choice' (1)

Control Group (105494) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827826)

Honestly, I don't think it's the "proprietary" nature of it that's irksome in itself, it's that it's proprietary in an effort to lock you in outside the realm of the console. A proprietary format that was only going to be used for PS3 games would probably draw some ridicule (see the GameCube's disc format), but not such contempt.

The problem is that Sony appears to be pushing a format that makes the console more expensive, that is suspected of not particularly enhancing the games, but that they're pushing for reasons of their own. It makes people feel cheated, like they're being asked to foot the bill for Sony's strategy in the movie industry when all they want is to buy a games consol.

This level of vitriol didn't exist for previous consoles because Nintendo (for example) didn't try and sell movies on cartridges. So at least, insofar as you were paying for the proprietary format, you were paying for it solely for how it affected the gaming experience.

At least, that's my take on it.

Re:The 'choice' (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828622)

Nintendo had a very legitimate reason for staying with cartridges. It probably wasn't the best decision, as they lost the entire RPG market, but they did have a few very good reasons for the direction they took, which you outlined above. Some PS1 and PS2 games are incredibly painful to play because of their load times (Suikoden V, for example). But Nintendo's constant concentration on decreasing load times has lead them to be fairly good even when they switched to optical media, much better than Sony or Microsoft, anyway. I worry that Sony is going to uphold status-quo with the PS3s load times, the increase of loading speed being directly proportional to the capacity of the disc, which would be quite obnoxious. I think Nintendo probably should have gone optical back with the N64, as they would have put a lot more pressure, than Sony did, on developers building good code into their games so as to limit load times (like they did with the GameCube). Sony's problem is that they don't police their developers enough. Nintendo makes sure the developers don't make their systems look bad, and the consumer wins because of it

Re:The 'choice' (1)

thatguywhoiam (524290) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827944)

I think /. as a whole tends to agree with Trépanier. Don't FORCE proprietary media formats at us through a console.

If you are making the argument that the cost of the Bluray laser is not worth the price, I understand that argument. But these formats are all proprietary. Every one of them. I can't do anything with a 'Nintendo DVD' or a 'Playstation DVD', even though they are in fact on DVD media.

Really, it doesn't matter if they sell games printed on sponges or in vials of liquid or anything, as long as the games have what they need, right? (again excepting the cost argument). I really don't care if Nintendo (or whomever) is saving money; that's their problem.

In the end it comes down to what the consumer spends their money on. A good percent of people know they're getting a Blu-Ray player and that it's non-gaming functionality directly competes with HD-DVD if they purchase a PS3. I'm sure a lot of them see the Blu-Ray as a bonus. But I'd say even more people are outraged that Sony is offering them a product that is overpriced because of functionality they don't want or need. The consumer has a right to be angry, too. I know I wanted to play the next Gran Turismo, but now I doubt I ever will.

Ah, but I dispute your 'functionality they don't want or need'. It will have a huge impact on games, something they very much want. Developers agree with me.

Re:The 'choice' (1)

steveo777 (183629) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828704)

Oh, I don't disagree that the BR drive is an amazing piece of equipment. I'd really be interested in read-times and seek-times for the drives. One thing I don't like is that it can't be considered reliable right now (especialy after all the PS2 drive failures).

But what I really don't like is that Sony is using PS3 to drive/push their format through. I understand and totally agree that they have every right to use whatever media they want for their games. But it's very frusterating considering the history of thier products, and the price is too much. I admit BR could give them the edge, but I won't be part of that edge until the price falls to or below 300 bucks.

Re:The 'choice' (1)

tbannist (230135) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829658)

I'm prefectly fine with Sony using the PS3 to push their format, it's a product they built, and using the same technology for their next generation DVD players is pretty much common sense for them. Microsoft was going to do it too, but figured out that HD DVD drives would delay the launch and they desperately wanted to be first to market.

What I don't like is Sony passing on the cost of the Blu-Ray drive to the customer. Everything else is just people griping because they want something to gripe about. Removing the ability of the PS3 to play movies won't make it a better gaming system for anyone.

Re:The 'choice' (1)

ClamIAm (926466) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831774)

But what I really don't like is that Sony is using PS3 to drive/push their format through.

Hey, guess what I heard? Nintendo is using the Wii to push their Wii format through. Focusing on Bluray ignores the reality that all these formats are proprietary, which is exactly what the parent said. And by "all" formats, I don't mean just video discs: I'm including the games themselves. Hell, the formats for PS3/X360/Wii games are even more locked down than say DVD, as the game formats are controlled by one company which can act much more arbitrarily than even the collusive multinational agreements that exist for DVD.

Re:The 'choice' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16832128)

It's not the format for games that's the problem - its the format for everything else. Do you hear people bitching about the DS's tiny cartridges, or the GameCube's nonstandard discs? No, of course not. Those are console games - all they're supposed to do is run in the console. But the problem is proprietary general purpose media. If the Blu-Ray discs are to be used for everything from movies to data, and the machine can only read Blu-Ray discs, and the system is being touted as a media center, we should be able to put our own content on those discs. This is something the iPod Generation has come to expect.

Proprietary Models (4, Interesting)

TPIRman (142895) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826228)

Nintendo is a great gaming company, and I'm excited about their resurgence with the DS and the Wii, but it will be a long time before I'm willing to hear someone from Nintendo lecture the industry about a "proprietary model." The Wii's support for DVD is one of very few times that the big N has strayed from its defining "not made here" syndrome. Have we already forgotten Nintendo's numerous examples of proprietary lock-in—one example that comes to mind being the GBA-SP's notorious "headphone jack [wikipedia.org] "?

Re:Proprietary Models (1)

kannibal_klown (531544) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826420)

The main thing is "not established." Where-as Big N has used MANY proprietary doo-dads in their products, none of them was something along the lines of the whole BluRay/HDDVD fiasco. There's a difference between them using small discs or funky headphone jacks, relatively cheap/minor nuisances, and picking an expensive disc player (for movies) that may become the next BetaMax.

Honestly though, I have to say I'm surprised at Microsoft during this whole thing. I was expecting them to be as assinine as Sony, but they're relatively tame in comparison.

Re:Proprietary Models (4, Insightful)

chrismcdirty (677039) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826678)

Don't forget, Nintendo as run by Iwata is much different than Nintendo as run by Yamauchi. Iwata seems to be more in touch with the people who play games, whereas Yamauchi was a crazy old man, rumored to have five heads.

Re:Proprietary Models (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827026)

"Have we already forgotten Nintendo's numerous examples of proprietary lock-inone example that comes to mind being the GBA-SP's notorious "headphone jack"?"

How is that lock-in? It says right there in the article that it was a form factor limitation.

Re:Proprietary Models (3, Insightful)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827198)

Yeah, the GC mini-DVDs are also a nice example. Dragged kicking and screaming into the world of optical media, they still couldn't go with something mainstream. Most of their weird proprietary decisions seem to involve preventing piracy and enforcing their licensee agreements -- the GBA-SP thing was at least allegedly a form factor issue, though I don't buy that it would have been impossible to use a normal jack. Anyway, the point is that Nintendo has always been weird and supported strange proprietary tech, but only for purposes of locking down their own console. Sony and MS use proprietary tech as a lever to force consumer's to do things in other markets. This has always been the difference to me: Nintendo's megalomaniacal urges seem to only run as far as ruling video games with an iron fist.

Re:Proprietary Models (1)

LordKronos (470910) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827846)

the GC mini-DVDs are also a nice example. Dragged kicking and screaming into the world of optical media, they still couldn't go with something mainstream.

Yeah, and you also couldn't play your PS2 games on your XBOX. What does it matter that your games use a format that won't work on another console or player? The point with the GC was that they were keeping it's cost down at the expense of being able to play movies. They weren't trying to sell anything more than a game system.

With the Wii, they've added DVD support (presumably because by now the cost impact is minimal) but are abstaining from adding support for an unstandardized movie format (and the added expense that comes with that).

Re:Proprietary Models (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827986)

Yeah, and you also couldn't play your PS2 games on your XBOX. What does it matter that your games use a format that won't work on another console or player? The point with the GC was that they were keeping it's cost down at the expense of being able to play movies. They weren't trying to sell anything more than a game system.

It doesn't matter. It was an example of Nintendo's fetish for strange proprietary formats and hardware. And I doubt it kept costs down to use non-standard DVD players, particularly for those manufacturing media, but the GC was affordable enough regardless, and the form-factor issue (the GC would have had to be larger to fit a full size DVD) was probably more important. Oh, and it's harder to pirate mini-DVDs, which is the main reason Nintendo makes all their weird hardware decisions.

"They weren't trying to sell anything more than a game system" was the whole point of my post, so maybe you should read it again. Or not.

With the Wii, they've added DVD support (presumably because by now the cost impact is minimal) but are abstaining from adding support for an unstandardized movie format (and the added expense that comes with that).

Really I have a hard time believing that DVD support was a signficant cost at any point in time over using mini-DVD. The only difference would be how far the laser has to track, big deal. I bet Wii supports DVD not because of cost, but because mini-DVDs were pretty cramped in the GC generation and full DVD is a big capacity upgrade.

Obviously a next-gen format that requires an expensive new laser is a different story.

Re:Proprietary Models (1)

thatguywhoiam (524290) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827822)

The Wii's support for DVD is one of very few times that the big N has strayed from its defining "not made here" syndrome.

No kidding. That's an argument that I've never understood - often employed in the whole Bluray discussion. "If it doesn't catch on, its useless to consumers". Well its not like I can take a Nintendo 'DVD' or a Playstation 'DVD' and do anything else with it, is there?

Nintendo used to sell games in boxes of RAM. Doesn't get much more proprietary than that.

Zune not so soon (-1, Offtopic)

zero-one (79216) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826238)

Microsoft may mock Sony as they haven't managed a world wide launch but at least the PS3 has a European launch date unlike the Microsoft Zune which doesn't look like it is going to be on sale in Europe any time soon.

Re:Zune not so soon (1)

revlayle (964221) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826344)

Because we know the Zune has so much to do with the PS3.

????????

Re:Zune not so soon (1)

Kazzahdrane (882423) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826672)

There is no European Launch Date for the PS3, only a vague launch window of March 2007. Also, if you've read the latest interview with Phil Harrison you'll know he carefully avoided answering the question of whether they'd make that date. Certainly the retailers here in the UK aren't holding their breath, they're telling customers that it might be March, maybe not.

BetaMax vs VHS All over again (1)

LordHotDog (831575) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826296)

and remember Sony originally backed BetaMax....

Re:BetaMax vs VHS All over again (1)

hansamurai (907719) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826392)

So HD-DVD will win even though Blu-Ray is the superior product?

*That's history talking, not me.

Re:BetaMax vs VHS All over again (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828688)

So HD-DVD will win even though Blu-Ray is the superior product?
Yeah, probably.

Re:BetaMax vs VHS All over again (1)

jdgeorge (18767) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826510)

and remember Sony originally backed BetaMax....

Great Scott, you're right! That amazing coincidence nearly slipped past us, in the same way that a steamroller nearly slips past the tar in a freshly poured road surface!

Re:BetaMax vs VHS All over again (1)

Control Group (105494) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826656)

+1 Good use of "Great Scott"

Re:BetaMax vs VHS All over again (1)

Osty (16825) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827780)

and remember Sony originally backed BetaMax....

Sony didn't just back BetaMax, they created it. It was just the first in a long line of media duds for Sony: BetaMax, MiniDisc, Memory Stick, UMD, and soon to be Blu-Ray. Sony just doesn't learn. It's like the entire company is operating under a Kutaragi reality distortion field where they honestly believe they've won all of the past media wars.

Re:BetaMax vs VHS All over again (1)

VJ42 (860241) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828300)

It's like the entire company is operating under a Kutaragi reality distortion field where they honestly believe they've won all of the past media wars.

Either that or "if a first you don't succeed, try, try and try again" was drummed into him really hard as a child.

Not quite exactly... (1)

DrYak (748999) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828274)

Except that back then, it was EITHER betamax OR vhs. 1 was bound to superceed the other.

Whereas today, while Microsoft and Sony kill each other in a blood bath, the consumer will only start buying once no-name asian constructors bring to market dual standart recorder that records both HD-DVD and BlueRay.

It's more "DVD-R vs. DVD+R vs. brand-less multi-standarts".

Huh? (0)

twosmokes (704364) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826512)

Having mostly ignored the format wars I don't understand Nintendo's statement. For consoles the disc media is meaningless, no? I mean it's not like I can take a Wii game and stick it in my computer and play it.

The only format forcing is the one that's always been there. If you want to play Nintendo games, you buy the Nintendo hardware. Same for Sony and MS.

The HD-DVD add on is optional and the ability to play Blue-Ray on the PS3 is just a bonus.

I don't see the problem.

Re:Huh? (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826596)

The problem is that fans of Sony (there are stilla few, despite their recent displays of Evil) would love to buy the latest version of their game console, but don't want to shell out the rediculous price dictated by the forced inclusion of a Blu-Ray player. Sony still insists it's for game content, but we all know it's to get their latest format picked up by the masses.

Re:Huh? (1)

Tainek (912325) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826714)

The problem is a blue-Ray Player, and the blue ray Media are both extreemly expensive, and the consumer has to pick up the Tab, even if he doesnt want a Blue-Ray Player

Re:Huh? (1)

twosmokes (704364) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826820)

I still don't see it. $399 for the higher end Xbox vs. $599 for the higher end PS3. It's not like the only difference there is the Blue-Ray.

You're getting a larger HD, Wifi support (which MS charges $100 for), and flash card readers. Obviously the price is higher, but the features (even ignoring the Blue-Ray) are there to support the price.

I won't be buying either system until there's some/more games for them, but the prices are comparable.

Re:Huh? (1)

MeanderingMind (884641) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827050)

The issue is that not everyone wants Blue-ray, and the inclusion has had two undesirable affects on the PS3.

1. An increase in price.
2. A decrease in supply.

The lasers for Blue-ray are both difficult and expensive to manufacture. Because of this, we have fewer PS3s at a greater price.

The argument for Blue-ray is largely for the 50GB of space it provides. This is compared to DVDs with a max of 9GB.

What people seem to forget is that the Gamecube's small discs had a maximum storage capacity of 1.5GB. That's exactly 1/6th of what the PS2 and Xbox had availible, yet we were delivered a number of incredible games (Resident Evil 4, Crystal Chronicles, Metroid Prime, Windwaker, Super Smash Bros and even Twilight Princess). 9GB is slightly more than 1/6th of the 50GB that Blue-ray offers.

The point is that because of facts such as these, the cut scene CG craziness many games employ, and general skepticism of the potential success for Blue-ray, many gamers are not exactly thrilled with it. Those who wanted to play Blue-ray movies may be, and some who don't as well, but a fairly large number don't feel happy about being used as a stepping stone for Sony's plans of market domination.

Re:Huh? (1)

twosmokes (704364) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827590)

Maybe the price is an issue, maybe not (see my other reply). Supply issues will eventually be resolved. There's always supply problems at a console launch. But price and supply have nothing to do with the article.

Trépanier said "Forcing people to adopt a technology and a model that's proprietary and still not established is unfair to gamers."

I don't see how. How does only allowing only one type of MOVIE to be played on a system have anything to do with gaming?

And don't they both offer DVD playback out of the box?

Re:Huh? (1)

NineNine (235196) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827330)

For consoles the disc media is meaningless, no? I mean it's not like I can take a Wii game and stick it in my computer and play it.

Not quite. It makes a tiny difference. Those people who get thier game boxes modded/chipped/whatever you want to call it, can make backups of their games, and use those. For the PS2, it's standard DVD. You want to make a backup of God of War? Put it in your PC. Copy it to a regular ol' DVD (+/- R doesn't matter), and play that in your PS2. If PS3 games come on a blue-ray disk, or the XBox 360 games come on an HD disk, then that effects those people who like to do backups. It's tiny. It probably doesn't matter. I just hope (for my sake) that the PS3 games don't all come in Blue-Ray format.

Re:Huh? (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827562)

the ability to play Blue-Ray on the PS3 is just a bonus.

A $200 bonus.

I don't see the problem.

The problem is that Sony wants half my rent for the month for a feature I don't want and which won't make the games any more fun.

Better article and ethical purchasing (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16826570)

Sony products == non [thebestpag...iverse.net]
Microsoft products == non
Nintendo's wii == oui!

Choice? (1)

testudorex (1019214) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826664)

I love how nintendo fans can so eloquently tell everyone that sony forces new technology people don't want, and that with nintendo, there's choice.
How many people plan on buying a wii with 1 controller, anyone? Didn't think so, that'll be $60 for each other player.
How many people plan on playing VC or GC games on the wii, anyone? Yeah, that's $20 for each player.
How much space of memory you think the wii comes with, enough? Well you can all ways "choose" to buy an extra sd card.
Don't you love the illusion of choice?

Re:Choice? (1)

joshetc (955226) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827678)

Hmm? Half of those questions can be asked about 360 and PS3 as well though.. how many controllers do those come with? Also AFAIK you dont HAVE to use the wii-mote which means you dont have to pay $60 per players. I plan on using the gamecube controllers I already have...

Re:Choice? (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828136)

"I love how nintendo fans can so eloquently tell everyone that sony forces new technology people don't want, and that with nintendo, there's choice."

All of your examples are not only examples of choice, but amazingly, they apply to the competitors as well.

i love nintendo, but.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16828694)

"Forcing people to adopt a technology and a model that's proprietary and still not established is unfair to gamers."

that statement sounds awfully funny coming from a company that has always pushed their own proprietary formats. has everyone forgot about those cartridges that made the price of n64 games balloon to $60+ in the 90s? correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe the gamecube's discs are proprietary as well. even if the gamecube discs were standard, nintendo is still out of line with that comment. nintendo is the anti-standard, which is good in some ways and bad in others. mark my words, if they get burnt this go round for the Wii's lack of HD compatability, the next console they make will have a proprietary "HiiiD" holographic display.

Re:Choice? (2, Interesting)

Ash-Fox (726320) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831372)

How many people plan on buying a wii with 1 controller, anyone?
I probably will.
How many people plan on playing VC or GC games on the wii, anyone?
There are two games I want to play from the GC, a few SNES games and so on. I never got those consoles, because I couldn't justify it.
How much space of memory you think the wii comes with, enough?
I don't know.
Well you can all ways "choose" to buy an extra sd card.
Seems fair enough, after all. I don't have to buy from Nintendo -- do I? Then again, theres the xbox, which required that I obtain a harddrive from Microsoft somehow, or use some horrible hack to use a generic one, which would void the warranties, xbox live agreements yadayadayada.
Don't you love the illusion of choice?
I choose Wii, after most of my life, not owning a console. I cannot justify getting a xbox, if I have to pay for xbox live so I can host my own servers for online play, to play on games online I already paid for on my own resources. Plus only having one [gamespot.com] game I'm interested in playing on the platform isn't much justification either.

I cannot justify getting a Sony product, simply because most of the hardware they sell have had so many issues, I don't want to, on that alone. Nevermind the fact that I don't find the need in high resolution TVs or a RSX processor that can apparently shuffle pictures on the screen that I've been doing for years on my amiga1200. Nevermind the fact there is no game I can think of that I want on the platform, and for that obscenely high price to get the console, there better be.

I want network play, I like the idea of forming a wireless neighborhood gaming network... Not really much of a choice, but there you go.

And I'm not really a gamer, all this crap over the years I keep experiencing, from things like Steam to CD protections wrecking my DVD drives has put me off playing many games.

Oh, so it's not *the* Smacktalk.. (2, Insightful)

Channard (693317) | more than 7 years ago | (#16826872)

.. and here was me thinking this was news that there was a PS3 of the Smacktalk being released. Which is, for anyone who's not heard of it, a device that sits between the 360's headset and console and lets you assign swearing and sound samples to various buttons. I'd buy one to assign a bunch of Dr Weird voice samples to if they weren't so expensive, and if they were actually available in the UK.

Yeah, but the cheapest solution is... (2, Insightful)

Hitto (913085) | more than 7 years ago | (#16827496)

Wii and a 25$ divx player.

I mean, c'mon guys. I know the next-gen storage format war is important to movie enthusiasts and people who have huge storage needs, but the rest of us are still happy with our "old" technology, and don't see (or care about) the artifacts or "bad quality" of the image. I mean, there's being interested in bleeding-edge, and then there's being anal about a percent performance increase.

I thought we geeks cared about content, low prices, and squeezing the most life out of any piece of kit, however old it may be. What's the rest of /.'s opinion on this, I'd love to know.

And on the upcoming games front? Personally, I am not interested by either the Xbox 360's or the PS3's offerings, even though I enjoyed the main franchise games on both consoles' predecessors. We have already witnessed how the cheaper, innovative console is more fun in many ways to the expensive, state-of-the-art piece of hardware that "isn't a console". (yes, I am in eternal love with the DS)

You may now post your best "Wii is barely powerful enough to run MARIO PONG : kidz version" flames... :)

Yes, Blu-ray is a the next DVD (-1, Flamebait)

Frobozz0 (247160) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828326)

For the confused or misinformed-- the general public who purchases a HDTV will ask themselves a question: how do I get high definition movies? The answers right now are HD-DVD and Blu-ray. Both cost the same, but one comes with a next-generation video game system attached.

The people pissing and moaning about not having choice-- namely Microsoft, are the very people who lock you out of options for the Zune, Windows, Internet Explorer, and Windows Media Player. Don't believe that they've changed their heart. They're arguing this point to further their position in a market they do not control. They are confusing customers with HD-DVD and prevent game makers from using the medium to deliver games. If it doesn't come standard, it won't be done on the 360. Period. That goes for ALL consoles, not just the 360.

Nintendo? They've just released a GameCube with a new arthritis-inducing controller that has almost no media options built in. Of course they'll argue you don't want to confuse the two. They can't afford to compete in that space and they rightfully chose NOT to. Kudus to Nintendo-- but they really painted themselves into a dead-end architecture IMHO. No DVD. No CD. No next-gen anything. I'm still baffled, but I certainly don't want Nintendo to do poorly. They just aren't competing against Sony if you ask me.

Now let's look at Sony. The pioneer and co-inventor of DVD. Do you think it was coincidence that the PS2 came shipped with a DVD player and that DVD sales exploded when the PS2 came to the market? The PS2 single handedly made DVD a new standard. When DVD players became a commodity, people then bought them as stand alone players, but the PS2 started it.

Sony made DVD a standard and Blu-ray will, aside from an unprecedented problem occurring, be the new delivery media for high definition movies. Why would last generation be any different than this one, barring a huge screw up?

Despite the fanboys on each side of the debate, consumers will make blu-ray the de-facto standard. Nobody currently debating this topic will be. We're the early adopters. We're simply going to tell our neighbors to get a PS3 to watch HD movies. We're the ones that will get the ball rolling, but we sure as hell aren't going to be the 100 million units sold. We're easily 1/10th of that.

Re:Yes, Blu-ray is a the next DVD (2, Funny)

GrayCalx (597428) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828888)

Sony made DVD a standard and Blu-ray will, aside from an unprecedented problem occurring, be the new delivery media for high definition movies.

I definitely agree with you. In fact, so much so I'd like to subscribe to your podcast, could you ship me one on MiniDisc?

'presh.

Re:Yes, Blu-ray is a the next DVD (1)

lkeagle (519176) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829230)


>> Sony made DVD a standard and Blu-ray will, aside from an unprecedented problem occurring, be the new delivery media for high definition movies. Why would last generation be any different than this one, barring a huge screw up?

Precedent is not set by a single iteration. I would ask what reasoning would lead you to believe that the next generation would be the *same* as the last. Also, your correlation is flawed. Why would you believe that the PS2 created the DVD standard? DVDs had been out for quite some time before the PS2. I would argue that the boom of digital video created a huge surge in PS2 purchases, not the other way around. Now that everything is digital, the only benefit consumers can see from any next-generation standard is capacity. HD-DVD and BluRay have about the same capacity, so where is the drive to choose one over the other?

Besides, the Xbox360 with HD-DVD beat the PS3 to market by a decent time margin, whereas the PS2 beat the Xbox to market by a huge margin (in my memory at least). What about the present situation makes you think that the playing field is at all aligned with the same forces that were at work 5-6 years ago?
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