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Some Back Compat Problems For PS3

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the going-back-in-time dept.

138

Via Opposable Thumbs at Ars Technica, the news at IGN that there are some annoying backwards compatibility issues with the PS3 and the PS2. Specifically, there are about 196 games that are experiencing issues. From the article: "In response to these issues, Sony's PR department pointed out that it, from the start, expected backwards compatibility to be less than 100%. It was also good enough to point out that some people can put up with playing games that lack sound. Regardless of this somewhat arrogant response, an official statement issued at the PlayStation.com site states that Sony will fix the problems with a future system update, and may even resort to individual patches for certain titles. When this will happen has yet to be specified." Qj.net has a list of some of the problem games, with their specific issues. It sounds bad, but to put this in perspective I believe there are still far more PS2 games playable on the PS3 than there are Xbox games playable on the 360.

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i wonder (2, Insightful)

thejrwr (1024073) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828112)

i wonder tho, why was the ps2 so good at playing ps1 games

Re:i wonder (2, Informative)

Mursk (928595) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828222)

I'm sure someone with superior technical knowledge on this subject will correct me before long, but I believe it's because they were able to essentially include much of the original PS hardware on a single chip in the PS2. It's not quite at the point where they can emulate the PS2 the same way.

Re:i wonder (2, Informative)

HappySqurriel (1010623) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828276)

IIRC the Playstation processor was included on the PS2 as the sound processor ...
Currently the Emotion Engine has been included in the PS3 in a similar way ...

Personally, I would suspect that much of the non-CPU related functionality of the PS2 is being emulated on the Cell processor but the emulation is incomplete

What about PS1 games? (1)

BigDogCH (760290) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829856)

So, does this mean that the Ps3 can't play Ps1 games? If the ps3 struggles with the pas2 sound, then that it surely wouldn't play ps1 games which ran on the sound chip inside the ps3, right?

Re:What about PS1 games? (3, Funny)

Hennell (1005107) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830144)

yeah, I'm sure people are really spending $600 to play upscaled PS1 games...

Re:What about PS1 games? (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831110)

If I was dumb enough to spend $600 on the PS3, I would SURE AS FUCK expect it to play my PS1 games in addition to my PS2 games. I have a PS2, and PS2 games, and I still spend more time playing PS1 games on it. I have two PS1s (a PS1 and a PSOne - I have the PSOne because I got it when I didn't have my PSTwo (slim) yet, and I still have the PS1 because it supports the game shark) and I use the PS2 because I don't want them taking up space. I have a switchbox, but why have more hardware out there when the PS2 will do the job?

On the other hand, freeware PS1 emulators are getting better all the time, and the box runs Linux, so I guess you could play the games there.

Re:What about PS1 games? (1)

HardSide (746961) | more than 7 years ago | (#16832436)

I would expect to play both PS1 and PS2 games when I buy the PS3, thats one of the reasons im buying it.

Re:i wonder (2, Informative)

RzUpAnmsCwrds (262647) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828618)

I'm sure someone with superior technical knowledge on this subject will correct me before long, but I believe it's because they were able to essentially include much of the original PS hardware on a single chip in the PS2. It's not quite at the point where they can emulate the PS2 the same way.


Actually, that's exactly what Sony did with the PS3 - the PS3 motherboard contains the same EE+GS chip that powers the slim PS2.

You can see it on the left side of this photo [impress.co.jp] .

Re:i wonder (1, Insightful)

trcooper (18794) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828340)

The PS3 uses software emulation. The PS2's IO processor was basically a PSX as I remember, and they were able to leverage it to run old games.

Since they're using software emulation now, they're in for the same issues that the 360 has. I don't think the issue to the consumers will be how many games work, but which games work. Few people will care if Madden '99 runs on the PS3, but they might be upset if their recently bought FF XII wouldn't.

Re:i wonder (2, Informative)

bile (169020) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828584)

Actually they planed on software emulation but were unable to create the emulator in time so each PS3 actually contains an EE/GS chipset as used in the new PStwo's. At some point if/when the full software emulator is finished they will remove the EE/GS to save money.

Re:i wonder (1)

octopus72 (936841) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830446)

So even Sony can't create an emulator for PS3 :)
Maybe PCSX2 folks should lend them a hand...

Re:i wonder (1)

NemosomeN (670035) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831950)

Funny that you say that. They were looking to recruit _DEMO_.

Re:i wonder (4, Informative)

Rufus211 (221883) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828852)

Wrong.

If you look at the pictures there are 4 chips. Cell (the main CPU), RSX (the GPU), EE/GS (the PS2), and an unmarked I/O chip.

They plan on doing software emulation at some point in the future, and when they do they'll drop the PS2 chip and RAMs from the board. Untill then there's a full hardware PS2 in every PS3.

Re:i wonder (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16828374)

Because the PS2 used the PS1 processor as a coprocessor.

Re:i wonder (2, Interesting)

UbuntuDupe (970646) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828420)

All I know is, whenever I ask on a forum why emulation is so hard if you have the specs for the thing you're emulating, and designed the emulating system and thus can "translate" the new OS commands, I get a vague explanation from "experts" on the matter. Then when I ask clarifying questions about the explanations, they take it as rudeness and refuse to give any information that would reveal understanding of console architecture.

Simple answer is. (5, Informative)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829560)

If it was simple then they wouldn't be having all these problems.
The hard answer is it depends.
1. Did the program use some strange feature or bug that you are not emulating? This can cause problems even for hardware. You do a new rev of some chip and a program that uses some strange workaround fails. This was a major problem for Apple when they created the Apple IIc. It used the 65c02 which fixed a lot of bugs in the 6502 that some software depended on. It was also a problem for some Amiga users when they upgraded to the 68010 or higher.
2. timing. This can be a real pain since on a modern CPUs you can not cycle count. On a modern CPU the amount of time an instruction takes is not fixed. Again did the software you are tying to emulate do something really odd with timing? Sound issues are often caused by this.
3. Bugs. No program is perfect. Emulators tend to multiply bugs. One bug my effect a dozen games.
4. Lack of documentation. Even if you have perfect documentation for the hardware specs that isn't enough. Some developer somewhere will go outside the specs and try something strange just to see if it will work. When it does they will leave it in. Unless you have the source for every program you intend to run on your emulator the odds are pretty good you will miss something. Even if you do it is unlikely you will go through every line of code.
What developers like about consoles is that you can program right down on the hardware to get the maximum performance. You know that each and every console will have exactly the same hardware.
What emulator writers hate about consoles is that console developers program right down on the hardware. If you make the smallest mistake it will come back and get you.
Just a short list of reasons.

Re:Simple answer is. (1)

Carnildo (712617) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831052)

Another major factor is speed. You can do cycle-perfect emulation -- most SNES, NES, and similar emulators do this -- but at major cost to speed. Or you can translate functionality -- most PSX and PS2 emulators translate graphics into OpenGL or DirectX calls -- but at the cost of accuracy.

Re:Simple answer is. (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831156)

It was also a problem for some Amiga users when they upgraded to the 68010 or higher.

68010 was not a big problem, it's so similar to a 68000. 68020+ is much more problematic, to the point where some emulators allow you to start up on the original CPU.

timing and bugs in the other hardware are a much bigger deal, though of course I am not saying you are wrong.

Re:i wonder (2, Informative)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830942)

The answer is actually amazingly simple. Programmers. Damn their souls. They find ways to trick the hardware into performing better, or at least APPEARING to perform better, that wasn't designed by the original hardware engineers. They use little-explored functions for un-imagined uses. They generally just use the system hard until you have to emulate the original hardware bug-for-bug or SOME game will fail horribly. There will always be a crazy programmer that managed to make bug X actually be a useful thing.

Of course, there's also those idiot programmers that had NO idea how function Y was supposed to work, used it wrong and got a 'meaningful' answer somehow. Maybe it rounded the float early and shouldn't have, but his code now relies on that bug. Maybe he used it BECAUSE it does that. Who knows.

In the end, it has nothing to do with the hardware and everything to do with the software used on that hardware, and that's why those 'experts' can't answer your question.

Re:i wonder (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16828538)

Because what used to be the PS1 was the I/O subsystem in the PS2, a pretty smart move if you ask me.

Re:i wonder (1)

JordanL (886154) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829014)

I wonder why people are forgetting the graveyard of broken promises that the X360 has yet to fulfill...

Re:i wonder (1)

MaineCoon (12585) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830076)

Because they're plowing the ground for the graveyard of broken promises the PS3 will fail to fulfill.

Re:i wonder (1)

abandonment (739466) | more than 7 years ago | (#16832452)

By the end of September 2006, there were 8,181 PS2 titles released worldwide (4,554 in Asia, 1,319 in North America, and 2,308 in Europe),[7] accounting for cumulative production shipments of 1.127 billion units.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_2 [wikipedia.org]

Having issues with 130 or so games is PRETTY GOOD as far as backwards compatibility goes. Compare this to the 'how many?' original xbox games that play on the 360 - even now. Not to mention the fact that Microsoft's version of backwards compatibility is a hilarious, hideous implementation...

You're still looking at just over 1% of ps2 games having issues...basically a rounding error - but NOOO the media (and xbox fanboys) will grasp at any straws that they can in order to try and make sony sound bad..

So funny.

Re:i wonder (1)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829140)


i wonder tho, why was the ps2 so good at playing ps1 games


It's because the PS2 actually included PSX hardware in it. There's a adjunct chip addtached to the Emotion Engine called the IO Processor, which is used to handle all the I/O in the system (controllers, DVD-ROM, sound, etc), very DMA-ish. This I/O processor basically includes the central processing core of the PSX as well - in PSX mode, the Emotion Engine would basically end up (with the Graphics Synthesizer) acting as the graphics chip, while the I/O processor became the main processor. That's why the graphics were "upscaled" a bit, but the games worked quite well provided they didn't do anything funny.

What I find interesting is that in the PS3 teardown photos, there's a chip besides the Cell/BE (Cell Broadband Engine) and RS (Reality Synthesizer), called EE/GS (Emotion Engine/Graphics Synthesizer), which would imply the guts of the PS2 are embedded in the PS3... which should result in a lot of games working. Especially important ones like Guitar Hero.

Unlike the Xbox360, which has NO adjunct x86 processor, and instead relies on the 3 PowerPC cores to emulate the x86 CPU and translate graphics calls to the ATI GPU. Hence why backwards compatitibility is awful on the 360.

Re:i wonder (1)

thejrwr (1024073) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829550)

i think the ps3 will have better compat for xbox games then the xbox360 (enmu software under linux)

Re:i wonder (1)

ClamIAm (926466) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831142)

My guess: the PS1 is a lot less complex than the PS2. The more complicated the system, the harder it is to emulate 100% correctly.

Another thing is that, with the PS2, Sony was not able to stream software updates over the internet onto peoples' hard drives. The PS3's storage and connectivity abilities allow them to be "lazier" in getting the bugs out of the system, just like Microsoft with the Xbox and 360.

196 (1)

stoolpigeon (454276) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828186)

so does that mean the other 800 or 900 work fine? i don't own a ps2 or ps3 - i own a gamecube, but when i go into a gamestop (or something similar) it feels like there are thousands of play station games out there, me i've just got to look for the little bitty gc section.

Re:196 (1)

Ohlmy1 (1023549) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828288)

Perhaps they should relate the percentage of backwards compatible games between the 2 systems. Would things look more even then? BTW, is anyone really that excited about being forced to use Blu-Ray technology anyway? Does anyone remember Betamax? Expect Blu-Ray to go the same way.

Re:196 (1)

j00r0m4nc3r (959816) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828434)

Yeah, there are 900 games you would never want to play.

Re:196 (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828440)

Well according to Wikipedia, Playstation [wikipedia.org] has about 1400 games, while the GameCube [wikipedia.org] has about 700 games. So, there's plenty of games for both systems, although Playstation has twice as many games. The difference you see in stores is due to the fact that there's many more people with a PS2, so the decide to dedicate more space to PS2 games. However, Being a GameCube owner I find that GameCube probably has as many good games, if not more than Playstation. Remember it's not the number of games that matter, but how good the games are. I would buy a system that only had 20 games if I thought every one of those games was amazing. I've never even owned more than 20 games for any 1 system anyway.

Re:196 (1)

alphaseven (540122) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828460)

so does that mean the other 800 or 900 work fine? i don't own a ps2 or ps3 - i own a gamecube, but when i go into a gamestop (or something similar) it feels like there are thousands of play station games out there, me i've just got to look for the little bitty gc section.

There are about 16'000 different PS1 and PS2 titles, counting all regions... source [scei.co.jp] .

Re:196 (1)

_Hiro_ (151911) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828654)

Funny, every time I walk into a gaming store I'm reminded of how many cool games are available for GCN and I have a PS2.

That's why I'm getting a Wii. Now I can play PS1, PS2, GCN, and Wii games all with only two consoles. If only someone would work in Saturn / Dreamcast / Sega CD support, I could unhook all these other disc-based consoles I own...

Re:196 (1)

tbannist (230135) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829246)

Funny, I have a GameCube and a PS2 and every time I walk into a gaming store, I'm reminded of how many cool games are not available for the GameCube.

Frankly, most of the GameCube games seem to be rubbish.

Re:196 (1)

Carnildo (712617) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831216)

That's why I'm getting a Wii. Now I can play PS1, PS2, GCN, and Wii games all with only two consoles. If only someone would work in Saturn / Dreamcast / Sega CD support, I could unhook all these other disc-based consoles I own...


It's why I've got a Linux PC: Now I can play PS1, N64, XBox, SNES, NES, DOS, Windows, 68k Mac, C64, etc. games all on one box.

Re:196 (1)

octopus72 (936841) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830668)

Most problems are minor glitches video, sound glitches and sometimes screen gets corrupted (apart from games that use PS2 HDD). Some bugs are even fixed with 1.10 firmware. I suppose that 80%-90% of those games will be resolved with firmware updates (which console can download str8 from SCEI web site).

no sound? (5, Funny)

c0reboarder (885528) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828214)

Who needs sound for guitar hero or DDR, seriously?

Re:no sound? (4, Funny)

lpangelrob (714473) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828348)

Who needs sound for guitar hero or DDR, seriously?

Real DDR players step to white noise. Expert players don't even need their PS3 to output a freaking video signal.

Re:no sound? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828456)

Real DDR players step to white noise.

Don't tell me someone made a StepMania simfile to "Onderheynah" [pineight.com] .

Re:no sound? (1)

bym051d (980242) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828804)

Guitar Hero's not playable on PS3 anyway since the controller won't work. DDR might be if you have a USB controller.

PS2 Hard Drive (1)

Reapman (740286) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828298)

I remember reading recently that any PS2 hard drive based games like FFXI and some others will not run on the PS3 for now, but there is a future patch coming down.

They expected it, but did they point it out? (1, Insightful)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828338)

"In response to these issues, Sony's PR department pointed out that it, from the start, expected backwards compatibility to be less than 100%"

So Sony's PR department expected backwards compatibility to be less than 100% from the start.

Did Sony's PR department point out that backwards compatibility would be less than 100% from the start?

I'll admit I haven't read every PS3-related press release, but have they been informing customers from the beginning that they too should not expect 100% compatability? I don't remember reading anything like that, and based on the good backwards compatability of PS1 games on PS2 I expected the situation to be the same. So if they expected these problems but just didn't tell anyone.. that's supposed to make them sound better?

Re:They expected it, but did they point it out? (2, Interesting)

ivan256 (17499) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828380)

I don't remember reading anything like that, and based on the good backwards compatability of PS1 games on PS2 I expected the situation to be the same.

There was PS1 -> PS2 incompatibility as well to the tune of a couple percent of the overall title list. The compatible titles differed even from revision to revision of the PS2. It sounds like the situation is the same.

Obvious. (2, Interesting)

MikeFM (12491) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828494)

Anyone who buys a first version of a product has to expect bugs. If they don't then they obviously don't understand technology and consumer products. It sounds like they plan to offer free fixes as they discover and fix these little bugs so what's the big deal? If you don't want to help debug the product you're buying then wait until the third major release. It'd be different if they weren't going to offer free fixes for the problems.

Re:Obvious. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16829104)

Why should we have to debug a product we paid for. Being a software engineer, I understand that bugs exist, but god damn is it ever annoying to be testers, that are not only not getting paid, but are also shelling out several hundred dollars for the "privilege." When is it acceptable to have bugs in live software/hardware? Would it be acceptable if your car had a bug where it would deploy the airbag if you opened the trunk and the doors at the same time? No? Why is it okay in software then, to have such "fatal" bugs? Why is okay in consumer electronics, from which 90% or more of the time, you're NOT going to get updates as they roll out, and if you're out of warrenty, tough shit...

Re:Obvious. (2, Insightful)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831242)

Would it be acceptable if your car had a bug where it would deploy the airbag if you opened the trunk and the doors at the same time?

Okay, look. I am hereby putting you on official notice. Do not use automotive metaphors if you know fuck-all about cars. That is approximately 99 & 44/100ths percent of all the people who try to make them on this thing. Just STFU right now, kthx.

What you apparently don't know, because your mother's basement is so warm and cozy, is that cars have serious design defects all the time. It's simply a fact of life. Sometimes they're the fault of the manufacturer and sometimes they're the fault of a supplier. In the case of the Ford Explorer/Firestone Tires thing, it was both; the tires were defective AND they were underinflated.

My 1989 Nissan 240SX has two safety recalls. One is that the fuel injectors are known to leak all over the top of the motor. The other is that the seatbelt button mechanism for the front seatbelts can fail. These are both potentially life-threatening issues. Nissan is still in business, albeit 33% owned by some Frenchmen. This is one of the most reliable cars I have ever owned or driven and an absolute joy to work on as rice burners go, but if the service recall had not been done (it has) then it could have caught fire and killed me or something.

So yes, it is acceptable for cars to have serious defects. Why do you ask?

Re:Obvious. (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829300)

My dad always says the same about cars. Don't buy a new model the first year it comes out, or after they do a major overhaul. Buy a car where they haven't really changed anything in the last couple of years and you'll have a lot less problems.

Re:Obvious. (1)

stevesliva (648202) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830722)

Buy a car where they haven't really changed anything in the last couple of years and you'll have a lot less problems
If they haven't changed anything, how did they fix the problems?

Re:Obvious. (1)

MoriaOrc (822758) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831504)

"Haven't really changed anything" says to me that (warning: car/software analogy .. though in reverse) as in software, when they've spent the last few months/or more doing minor bug fixes, it'll be alot more secure then right after a major new version.

Take Firefox (even though it's fairly secure), 1.5.0.7 has been around for a while, and since the 1.5 major release, "nothing has really changed" .. all the new releases have just been small performance improvements or bug fixes (which is, of course, why they result in such a low order change to the version number). With 2.0 (or maybe 3.0 would be better, since 2 has actually been around for a while), there may be some new, as-of-yet unkown bug in one of the big new features, say a buffer-overflow attack involving the spell-checker that allows remote execution (of course I'm just making up an example ... *wink*), but since the feature is relatively new and hasn't spent that much time really in the wild, it hasn't been discovered yet. When such a hole has been, hopefully a patch will be released soon (see: the post somewhere around here about recalls on parts) and the problem fixed once it is identified, but you'll still be vulnerable untill then.

This isn't to say that FF1.5.0.7 doesn't have some security holes or other problems (certainly the bug count isn't down to 0 quite yet, nor will it ever be), but likely most of the bugs, and all of the major ones, have been found by now. They're known, and the big ones are fixed. Even though nothing much has changed since the 1.5 major version release.

But enough of my overly-long, horrible car/computer analogy filled response to your nit-picky misinterpertation of the GP's post...

Re:They expected it, but did they point it out? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16828582)

The IO processor was changed in a later revision of the PS2 (silver slim). Games which didn't follow the TRC requirements mis-used the old functionality and broke when new functionality was introduced. The situation is still far better than the 360, ~30 games broken out of 2000 versus 300 games working.

Re:They expected it, but did they point it out? (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828692)

The IO processor was changed in a later revision of the PS2 (silver slim). Games which didn't follow the TRC requirements mis-used the old functionality and broke when new functionality was introduced. The situation is still far better than the 360, ~30 games broken out of 2000 versus 300 games working.

So those games break on the later versions of the PS2 also? Interesting. You'd think Sony would do what all the x86 manufacturers have had to do: Make all future hardware bug-for-bug compatible with old hardware based on the behavior programmers coded to. But that's probably a lot tougher without x86's extensive history.

Yeah it's a better story than the 360, but that's damning with faint praise, since they have to individually fix and port each game.

Re:They expected it, but did they point it out? (1)

dknj (441802) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829188)

x86 is a horrible mismash of backwards compatibility. the day we have to wipe the slate and start over will be the day x86 stability improves 10fold.

Re:They expected it, but did they point it out? (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829544)

x86 is a horrible mismash of backwards compatibility

My only disagreement with this statement is that you didn't use enough superlatives and explitives.

the day we have to wipe the slate and start over will be the day x86 stability improves 10fold.

Are you talking about software stability? I highly doubt ISA backward compatability is a significant source of instability. Old software may be unstable, but it would be unstable on old hardware or new. Windows backward compatability causes instability because it prevents them from re-writing or getting rid of insecure and unstable interfaces, but the ISA isn't the problem.

Besides, one nice thing is that when a new operating mode is introduced it provides an opportunity to drop old features, except in compatability modes. E.g., x86-64 (mostly) doesn't have segmentation, it doesn't have undefined flag values, it doesn't have some of the stranger and more useless instructions. Sure if you switch to 32-bit or 16-bit mode it does, but new software isn't encumbered with the cruft. And hardware designers are free to make the old cruft slow so as to discourage it's continued usage. :)

Re:They expected it, but did they point it out? (3, Insightful)

TGTilde (874930) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828924)

Actually they did state this. In fact they specifically stated that any game that didn't follow Sony's TRC (technical requirement chcklist) in creating PS2 games would NOT work on the PS3. They also said any game that needed a new peripheral, such as Guitar Hero, would NOT work. They didn't need to state specifically "We did not expect 100%" because the above infers this to be true. Source: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/41353 [shacknews.com]

Re:They expected it, but did they point it out? (1)

ClamIAm (926466) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831252)

They also said any game that needed a new peripheral, such as Guitar Hero, would NOT work.

I really wish Sony made some PSX -> USB dongles to get around this. The whole idea of backwards compatibility is to not need every system you've ever bought. Of course, I have no plans to buy a PS3 anytime soon, so it doesn't really affect me; however I do still have my Gameboy Color, for the few games that require either its formfactor or its IR port.

Why the bad press? (1)

Frobozz0 (247160) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828372)

I'm confused. If you need to play a PS2 game on the PS3, and it doesn't work well. WHY NOT PLUG IN YOUR PS2? I'm assuming you didn't purchase a bunch of PS2 games to sit on a shelf and collect dust. There must have been a PS2 in your greasy palms at some point.

The PS3 is likely emulating a PS2 through a combination of hardware and software. Since 99.99% of the people buying a PS3 will want to play PS3 games on their PS3, this really isn't an earth shattering issue. For the small remaining crew, they have a PS2 they could hook up until the firmware updates roll out to correct it.

Re:Why the bad press? (2, Insightful)

PrescriptionWarning (932687) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828448)

the way I see it, is that people don't need several consoles hanging around the house, when instead they could have one or two that can play em all. If it were a perfect world, a PS3 could play any game ever made on CD or DVD, same with the xbox 360. That is, if they were more like PC's instead of proprietary pieces of hardware that they try to lock you in with the purchase of one over the other, or in the case where you're willing to blow more money, all of the above.

too bad it ain't a perfect world. In the meantime, just pay the money and enjoy the ride :)

Re:Why the bad press? (1)

Jace of Fuse! (72042) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829900)

In a really weird world, though, the Xbox 360 would play PS2 games and the PS3 would play original Xbox games. :)

My Nintendo Polyhedron that fell back in time, however, plays all games from all systems currently out and some that aren't out yet.

The problem is it requires the user to smoke lots of Hash and drop some Acid before it becomes visible. Strange device, this future Nintendo machine.

Oddly enough Windows games keep crashing on it.

My huge and amazing library of linux games run flawlessly, though. Mac, too.

Re:Why the bad press? (4, Insightful)

fistfullast33l (819270) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828510)

Since 99.99% of the people buying a PS3 will want to play PS3 games on their PS3, this really isn't an earth shattering issue. For the small remaining crew, they have a PS2 they could hook up until the firmware updates roll out to correct it.

While I agree with you that it's not earth-shattering, I'll also point out that there will be people who are trading in their PS2 to lower the price of their PS3, so it might not be a feasible option for everyone.

Re:Why the bad press? (1)

Frobozz0 (247160) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828778)

Not any more! They'll kept that sucker. Haha.

How much do you honestly think you can get off a PS3 for a PS2, like 5 bucks? I'm seriously asking b/c I don't know if the value-proposition is worth it. If you can keep a working PS2 for a second TV or something, the tiny trade-in value might not be worth the loss of functionality.

Re:Why the bad press? (1)

Theaetetus (590071) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829898)

How much do you honestly think you can get off a PS3 for a PS2, like 5 bucks? I'm seriously asking b/c I don't know if the value-proposition is worth it.

No idea, but with the PS2-PS1 trade in, you could take $100 off the price of a PS2 by trading in your old system. I can't find anything official, but it looks like Gamestop will give you $60 for a PS2.

Re:Why the bad press? (1)

Kazzahdrane (882423) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830222)

I work for a games chain in the UK and at the moment the trade on a PS2 is about £45. The PS3 will cost about £425 here at launch, so people would save around 10%.

Re:Why the bad press? (2, Insightful)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828590)

I'm confused. If you need to play a PS2 game on the PS3, and it doesn't work well. WHY NOT PLUG IN YOUR PS2?

Because your PS2 is broken, and instead of buying a new one you've been waiting for the PS3 to come out so you can play both next gen titles and your current library? All optical drives fail, original PS2s had many problems and even the slim ones seem to have (though mine is still running fine), so I'd wager there's actually more people in this category than you think. Sony must think so, because they bothered to add it to the console.

I'm more or less in the same boat. My GC has given up the ghost; even after replacing the failed fan it still gives disc read errors. So for me the GC-compatability of the Wii is a major feature. I'll personally be rather pissed if it turns out Nintendo "from the start, expected backwards compatibility to be less than 100%" and just forgot to mention it next to the backward-compatability marketing bullet point.

touche! (1)

Frobozz0 (247160) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828734)

Yeah I see that point. My PS2 is certainly on it's way out.

But I have to believe this is a matter of firmware updates and time-- not a permanent problem.

Re:touche! (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828914)

But I have to believe this is a matter of firmware updates and time-- not a permanent problem.

Hopefully. It may end up like the 360 where you need to download a per-game patch, but hopefully a system-wide patch will fix the problem. I think this will mostly just ruffle the feathers of those who bought into Sony PR. Yes, that is foolish, but I don't think that means we should let the PR firm off the hook for being misleading either. If they jump on fixing the problem (instead of making dismissive statements), then it should end up being a non-issue.

because (2, Insightful)

everphilski (877346) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828716)

... you sold your PS2 and gave blood plasma for the past 6 months to finance your PS3 :)

Re:Why the bad press? (1)

whoop (194) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829200)

As someone who hasn't gotten around to getting a PS2 or GameCube, I'm still interested in the Wii/PS3 compatibility. There are huge libraries there for the picking, much cheaper than the new games. If you've never played the games, they're as good as "new."

I'm more likely to get a Wii (price, looks a lot more fun). I can pick up Zelda, maybe one other Wii game, then hit the used stores and buy a buttload of $5-15 Gamecube games.

Hmm, I suppose it's asking too much if the PS3 emulates PS1 games too?

Because you only have so many ports (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829766)

When I get a PS3 (not this year, probably next) it will replace my PS2 because I have a lot of devices vying for video connections - even with a switchbox in place. Not to mention space devoted to various consoles, which females in the household seek to minimize.

My PS2 still works just fine but it does have some problems with a few newer games that use blue discs, in particular Lego Star Wars. So I would love to have a PS3 that could also play a few current games I couldn't get to work on my existing box (borrowed a friends PS2 just to finish that game).

Re:Why the bad press? (1)

Saffaya (702234) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830450)

"If you need to play a PS2 game on the PS3, and it doesn't work well. WHY NOT PLUG IN YOUR PS2?"

Because the PS2 is an inferior product, as 99.99% of it's games can't be run on a progressive display ?
Compare that with the 98% DreamCast games that ran fine with a VGA cable.

You will then understand why I said for years that I would play PS2 games the day I have a PS3, to finally be able to play them not in a crappy interlaced format.

   

Re:Why the bad press? (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831306)

Compare that with the 98% DreamCast games that ran fine with a VGA cable.

Just to pick a nit, out of the 40 or so games I've tried with my VGA box, four or five of them did not support VGA output.

The pural of anecdote is not data, and perhaps I just got "lucky" and found all the games that don't have VGA support. But I disagree with your numbers.

Luckily, Record of Lodoss War supported VGA, and that's the one that mattered most.

Not too surprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16828396)

This has been a subject of discussion at Beyond3d's forums [beyond3d.com] for some time now. What people have speculated there is that the compatibility issues are on par with those that the slim ps2 had.

Moreover, it seems many/most of the problems don't severely implicate those games which have compat. issues in the first place. Some games are merely not playing BGM correctly. Regardless, the ps3 has a 97%+ compatibility rate, which is quite good considering the umbrella of games it has.

Most importantly, there's a software solution being refined for emulating the ps2 on the ps3 rather than using the built in hardware. Currently, Sony basically integrated the ps2's hardware into the ps3 (probably adds $30 or so to the price tag). When a software solution is finalized, you'll see ps3s without ps2 hardware, and possibly slightly lower prices. Not to mention that since it is emulated, there's the chance that games might see enhancements like AA or filtering.

More GH problems (2, Insightful)

chrismcdirty (677039) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828412)

I read on another site (possibly Destructoid) that Guitar Hero was having problems, due to the fact that you needed to hit a specific button (let's say 'X') that doesn't exist on a GH control. Then if you try to hotswap controls, you're told to turn on analog control, another feature which the GH control doesn't have.

Of course there is also the fact.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16829172)

That they [ign.com] were using a unofficial Playstation-controller --to-- PC USB dongle in a way it wasn't meant to be used.

Still, Sony should have had an official USB adaptor device upon the PS3's release. Seeing as how this actually worked, surprisingly enough, there is probably a good chance of one getting released.

As for backwards compatibility I am not too disappointed, things seem to be about the same as with the PS2. From back then I had the understanding that games were not 100% backwards compatible, but for the most part the stuff I used on the non-slim worked fine --save for maybe one game not recognizing the memory card once in a while.

Plus with the PS3's online connectivity those issues can easily be fixed unlike the PS2s. And I haven't been paying much attention, but I don't recall any promises that the PS3's backwards compatibility would be 100%....

Too many words... (3, Funny)

ivan256 (17499) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828470)

Really, what Zonk meant to say was:

It sounds bad, but to put this in perspective I believe there are still far more PS2 games playable on the PS3 than there are Xbox games.

All kidding aside, though... That list makes it look like the problems are minor... Basically HDD games aren't supported (They aren't supported on the actual PS2 anymore either) and some cut scenes have audio problems. Oh well.

And HDD games supported in later update (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829700)

There are only a handful of games that use the hDD, but already Sony has announced future support for Final Fantasy VII (or whichever one it was that ran on the PS2 HD). No way they could let that market drop!

Re:And HDD games supported in later update (1)

paitre (32242) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831118)

FFXI, I believe, and Square-Enix made it quite clear that THEY weren't going to support the PS3, since porting would require a straight rewrite, and they weren't willing to to that for an MMORPG that's now 5 years old, and showing it's age. /shrug.

Unfamiliar Games? (1)

ack154 (591432) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828490)

I think I recognized 5-10 of the games in that list. Given, I'm not a "hardcore" gamer by any definition... but are most of these games in Japan or something and the info is from that release and the trouble Japanese people are having? I didn't really notice if TFA said or not, so someone correct me if it didn't.

Basically though, how many people in the US will this really impact? I'm certain that most of the other PS2 gamers out there have heard of and/or played more of those games than I've heard of... but I don't see too many (of what I would consider) big names on there (except maybe GT4, FFXI, Tekken 5, and a couple other debatable ones). Will the majority of gamers really have that many problems?

(i'm not trying to say it's insignificant or anything, i'm really asking)

Re:Unfamiliar Games? (1)

*BBC*PipTigger (160189) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830772)

I was working on the PS3 earlier this year as part of small contract employment with Sony's U.S. R&D. I don't speak for Sony and don't know much definitively related to emulation (as I was mostly working on building PSGL and COLLADA code and samples for the CEB and DEH SDKs).

While there, I was under the impression that the backwards-compatibility (i.e., PS2 emulation) software (including the small wrapper around the embedded PStwo chips that are planned to be phased out as soft-emu improves) has been developed almost exclusively in the U.S.. There was this brilliant emulation expert named Stewart who could regularly be found burning midnight oil to resolve the latest conflict. There were a bunch of other cool engineers in that section of the department too. The point being, our title library was admittedly massive but it was also expectedly U.S.-centric. I didn't see many of the more esoteric imports in the gigantic game library there so this may have limited what titles could be verified and validated for conformance, stability, etc. by the team responsible for the task.

I wasn't directly involved, so I can't say for certain, but it would seem quite likely to me that PS2-compatibility quality issues are going to be substantially more prevalent when trying to run typical Nipponese titles on a PS3 than when running average PS2 titles that have originated here (just due to availability for testing).

Of course perfect downward compatibility with every system ever throughout antiquity would be a panacea of gaming-goodness for us hardcores... and I think we'll get damn close in the future if DRM doesn't close up PCs and Free Software. I'm just wanting to share maybe a bit of inside perspective that the problems being encountered in Nippon right now are not necessarily representative of the paucity of the situation we are likely to face here at the end of this week.

Even with all the problems everywhere, throughout the game industry and the rest of the world, with so much that deserves copious criticism or wholly vitriolic disdain... it's still a kick-ass time to be a gamer! ;) I'm looking forward to this weekend and the upcoming holidays. I know we're predisposed to geeky pedantic flame-wars, being fanboiz, justifying our "hardcore"-ness, hating corporations and publishers, resenting quantity over quality, or maybe just being generally "Grumpy Old Gamers" or something... but don't forget to play and have fun too! Dude, it's all about the gameplay! ;)

Sincerely,
-Pip [pipforpresident.org]
HTTP://PipForPresident.Org

compatibility never 100% (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16828500)

there are still many PS1 games that don't play correctly on the PS2. after a system has been out for a couple years, people stop caring. with online updates the PS3 has a much higher chance of supporting more backwards compatibility than the PS2 ever did.

OMG PONIES (1, Funny)

wampus (1932) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828608)

Can I still play Barbie's Horse Adventure?

Re:OMG PONIES (1)

pdxmac (460696) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829686)

it's sad the mods don't get the joke [penny-arcade.com] .

uummmmmmm, WHAT!!?!?!? (1)

turbopunk (806995) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828676)

Wait, didn't Sony include the PS2 hardware into the first gen PS3s percisely so this wouldn't happen?

How can they not get 100% backwards compatibility when PS2 games run on the PS2 hardware?

The solution (4, Funny)

InfinityWpi (175421) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828680)

Sony needs to hire those guys from Bleem! to finish their emulation software! It's perfect for them!

(This post has been modded -1: Way Too Dated A Reference)

Re:The solution (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16829000)

You're dating yourself. But at least you're dating someone.

Re:The solution (1)

lavid (1020121) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830632)

That was my first thought too! IIRC, the bleem! guys, before they went under, pointed out that their emulator did a better job emulating the PSX on the PC than the PS2 did emulating the PSX. That said, bleem!'s demise was due to Sony lawsuits, along with minimal updates and I'm sure they still harbor some resentment.

List not that bad (3, Informative)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 7 years ago | (#16828946)

I have about 20 PS2 titles, and only one is on that list (Devil May Cry, attract mode sometimes freezes) - IGN has a better version [ign.com] of the list listing the games most people would care about, and also with more generic issues (like some USB device support in PS2 games being flaky, like microphones).

As least you don't have older versions of popular games not being supported in order to push newer titles (Ridge Racer was not on that list).

Also noted is that the PS3 does not support the multitap - but it does support multiple controllers directly in PS2 games (since the PS3 can support up to seven wireless controllers at a time).

Re:List not that bad (1)

jizziknight (976750) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829314)

the PS3 can support up to seven wireless controllers at a time
I'm curious about this, and I hope someone can fill me in on it.... why 7? Why not 8? Or some other EVEN number so that if you have a group of people over you can have even numbered teams without using an AI player. To me this is just stupid. If you can support 7 controllers, is it really that much harder to support 8? And if it is, why not just drop it back to 6? I just can't rationalize the decision to support 7 controllers. Anyone have a good explanation?

Re:List not that bad (2, Informative)

k_187 (61692) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829394)

a bluetooth network can only have 8 devices on it. One is the PS3. Thus, 7 controllers maximum.

Correct (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829642)

Just wanted to weigh in and note that is the correct answer, thanks for filling it in.

Re: 7 controller potential for the Wii. (1)

trdrstv (986999) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831664)

Just for the record, this also means that despite it having controller lights for Controllers 1-4 (like the PS3's controller); the Wii can support up to 7 controllers, as the Wii-motes are Bluetooth as well.

Re:List not that bad (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829448)

I'm curious about this, and I hope someone can fill me in on it.... why 7? Why not 8?
My entirely-in-the-dark guess would be that somewhere in the support for wireless controller there is a byte used to identify a group of controllers that are being addressed, and that one bit is used for some special related purpose, so that there are only seven bits available to identify whether a particular controller is or is not included in the set, and therefore it supports up to seven controllers.

Fuck You - I Mean That In A Good Way (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16829152)

That was a stupid joke that would not go away back in high school. If you're going to spread FUD about the PS3 Zonk, at least be a fucking man about it and stop trying to pretend your 'softening the blow of bad news'.

The PS3 has about 98 percent BC for PS2 and PS1 games. And the number games in that 2 percent that don't actually work are tiny. Other than harddrive games and the Guitar Hero controller problem, a glance at the list should give everyone a good idea of how good BC turned out to be on the PS3.

Valkyrie Profile woes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16829354)

I'm not surprised the Valkyrie Profile games have problems. The first game used special algorithyms to compress both the graphics and sound. The first VP had problems running on PS2s in the first place so incompatibility on PS3 is no new surprise. I'm betting VP2 uses compression for the audio similar in function to the first game. It's a hallmark of games members of the former Tri-Ace team have worked on that allows them to cram more samples into a game.

Therefore you better expect all Tri-Ace team or sound compressed games to have problems. This includes Star Ocean 2 (Tri-Ace) and Alundra (sound compressed). Wild Arms 2 may have issues as well.

never buy sony at launch, but this isnt a big deal (1)

marcybots (473417) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829598)

Never buy a sony console at launch, there are always bugs. I had to replace both my original playstation one and two. However, this really isnt that big a deal, 196 games out of a library of three thousand or more games isnt so bad, and I bet sony will eventually fix most of these issues in an update , or it will be fixed in a later revision of the hardware unfortunately for early adopters (like the ability to read cd-r and dvd-r disks and adding progressive scan was in the playstation 2).

Re:never buy sony at launch, but this isnt a big d (1)

king-manic (409855) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830434)

Never buy a sony console at launch, there are always bugs. I had to replace both my original playstation one and two. However, this really isnt that big a deal, 196 games out of a library of three thousand or more games isnt so bad, and I bet sony will eventually fix most of these issues in an update , or it will be fixed in a later revision of the hardware unfortunately for early adopters (like the ability to read cd-r and dvd-r disks and adding progressive scan was in the playstation 2).

expand this to include all consoles. The NES had huge issues with v 1.00 as did the xbox, ps2, xbox 360. There are others but they didn't get as much press.

Sony can't even catch a break. (1)

kinglink (195330) | more than 7 years ago | (#16829832)

Sony brags "our PS3 will be 100 percent backwards compatible because we are including a PS2 emotion chip in there". Oops. guess not.

Sony brags "we'll have more than enough systems at launch". HA! if you believed that one I got a bridge to sell.

Sony brags "Our system is best" are we going to listen?

The problem with Sony is no one would care if you only could player 1200 out of 1400 games. However Sony can't stop hyping their system to the point where they promise so much that of course they are going to screw up. They now claim PS3 Killzone is beating expectations? That sounds great right? Until you realize the Ps2 was going to have no FMVs, everything was going to be real time rendered.

What's killing sony right now is not production problems or system problems, or delays. It's that they can't keep their fucking mouths shut. And that swear is necessary because it's so obvious why the media is hating them. People know when they are being lied to or forced to make a hype piece about something that doesn't deserve it.

If Sony kept low key til September it would really have helped them by wheting our appetites at E3, and letting us simmer. However since March we have not had a week with out one story about their system, and I'm sure that's why we're getting a bunch of bad press for them. Because we keep finding out they are bullshitting the media and bullshitting the people who buy their system.

Nintendo on the other hand kept quiet, did a couple announcements and arn't hyping the system, they just meantion good news "oh by the way, the Virtual console? It's also going to do Genisis games" and we are happy. They don't try to over hype the people, and they are acting like they are telling us breaking news so it sounds like "hey I just learned this". These deals probably were made before the original announcements but they are playing with the media just right, keeping the media interested, but not overselling their position.

Sony should lose just for the amount of hype they put out. Last time this level of hype was in the air Daikatana was coming out. And the parellels might not end there. I guess we'll see if "Sony will make us it's bitch"?

Updated title list (1)

TypeC (975677) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830102)

From the source:
Ultimate Hits Front Mission 2 - Not yet tested. Otome no Jijou (Budget) - Certain movies do not play properly. (Firmware 1.10 verified to fix problem) Otome no Jijou (LE) - Certain movies do not play properly. (Firmware 1.10 verified to fix problem) DMC PlayStation 2 the Best - Title demo sometime freezes Phantom Brave 2 Shuume Hajimemashita PlayStation 2 the Best - When you move the characters ingame, the screen messes up. Jissen PACHISURO Hisshou Hou! Hokuto no Ken SE (Regular Ed.) - Sometimes pressing the stop button has lag. Koei Tenban Series Shin Sangoku Musou 3 - In certain scenes the BGM messes up. Sometimes the demo movies/pictures freeze. School Rumble Nigakki Kyoufu no (?) Natsu Gasshuku! Youkan ni Yurei Utsuru!? Otakara wo Megutte Makkou Shoubu!!! no Maki - Title Movie messes up with HDMI out. (Firmware 1.10 fixes problem) School Rumble Nigakki Kyoufu no (?) Natsu Gasshuku! Youkan ni Yurei Utsuru!? Otakara wo Megutte Makkou Shoubu!!! no Maki (LE) - Title Movie messes up with HDMI out. (Firmware 1.10 fixes problem) Duke Nukem Forever - Screen is blank ... Oh yeah.... Ultimate Hits Valkyrie Profile - Valkyrie Profile - Some BGMs/sound effects don't play right during gameplay Ultimate Hits Star Ocean Till the End of Time Director's Cut - Movie playback sometimes experiences audio problems. Final Fantasy XI Atorugan no Hihou Kakuchou Data Disk - Currently PS2 HDD games aren't supported. Play Online / Final Fantasy XI One Pack 2006 - Currently PS2 HDD games aren't supported. IF Collection Spectral Force Chronicle

oh no they didn't (1)

ILuvRamen (1026668) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830640)

was also good enough to point out that some people can put up with playing games that lack sound
If the original Dance Dance Revolution for the PS1 is in that list of ones that don't work or at least don't have sound, fat but surprisingly athletic people are going to be throwing their PS3's at him for saying that.

Oh no! My copy of Daito Giken doesn't work... (1)

Hamster Lover (558288) | more than 7 years ago | (#16830770)

My copy of "Daito Giken Premium PACHISURO Collection Yoshimune" won't work on my new PS3. I am pissed. Um, could anyone tell me what "Daito Giken Premium PACHISURO Collection Yoshimune" translates to in English? Thanks.

Re:Oh no! My copy of Daito Giken doesn't work... (1)

patio11 (857072) | more than 7 years ago | (#16832064)

Daito Giken is the name of a particular manufacturer of gambling machines (you can see which at www.daitogiken.com). Pachisuro is short for Pachinko/Slot. Yoshimune is another name. So, basically, a forgettable bargain basement gambling game.

...and games that require Rumble? (1)

r_jensen11 (598210) | more than 7 years ago | (#16831186)

I know Metal Gear Solid 2 requires the rumble feature for when you get the cell phone, otherwise you never know when to answer it. What're they going to do to solve that? Whenever I get my PS3 (probably after next Christmas,) hopefully I'll be able to use my Playstation(2) USB adapter I have for my computer....
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