Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Mark Shuttleworth Tries To Lure OpenSUSE Devs

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the trolling-for-talent dept.

SuSE 258

polar_bear` writes "A lot of developers are angry at Novell for its deal with Microsoft, but is it fair game for other vendors to try to capitalize on dissatisfaction with Novell? Apparently, Mark Shuttleworth thinks so. Shuttleworth sent an invitation to the openSUSE developers list inviting developers 'concerned about the long term consequences' of Novell's deal to participate in Ubuntu Open Week and consider jumping ship to Ubuntu. OpenSUSE and Ubuntu developers are not amused."

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Bad Call (2, Insightful)

person132 (986809) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989260)

The idea of inviting developers to jump ship is too... un-Linuxy. OSS in general is not about getting the most developers, nor is it about sucking projects dry when they make an alliance with the heart of all computing evil. OSS is about choice. If developers are really unhappy with the alliance, they will jump ship themselves.

Re:Bad Call (2, Insightful)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989294)

Maybe he was insinuating the fact that he (Mark), does not have developers as good as those at Novell. Frankly, I find Canonical's latest Kubuntu release rather wanting and disappointing.

Folks at Ubuntu should borrow a leaf from Xandros and Freespire. These distributions actually work as advertised.

Who modded this up? (1)

msaver (907214) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989380)

Maybe he was insinuating the fact that he (Mark), does not have developers as good as those at Novell.


No.

Frankly, I find Canonical's latest Kubuntu release rather wanting and disappointing.


Ubuntu is the most successful distro. Not by accident either.

Folks at Ubuntu should borrow a leaf from Xandros and Freespire. These distributions actually work as advertised.


You're kidding, right?

Interesting rebuttal you have there (1)

CDMA_Demo (841347) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989626)



"No"

....

"You're kidding, right?"

"Ubuntu is the most successful distro. Not by accident either."

Care to elaborate?

Your Bad Call was... (1)

towsonu2003 (928663) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989740)

Folks at Ubuntu should borrow a leaf from Xandros and Freespire. These distributions actually work as advertised.
You should have known that mentioning Freespire or Linspire or (god forbid) Lindows as model distros in Slashdot is karma suicide... And not unfairly so...

Re:Your Bad Call was... (0, Offtopic)

mikeisme77 (938209) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989948)

Linspire/Freespire is the only Linux distro that I am currently willing to recommend to people who aren't tech savvy (at least when I don't want to, or am unable to, set it up myself). It works and it's similar enough to how Windows works that people who haven't used anything else ever are comfortable enough to use it. And now they no longer charge for access to their CNR basic repository (which has software that they never should have charged people to have access to). The distro sucks for geeks, but for the non-tech savvy it still can't be beat. Ubuntu is sort of close... but by refusing to have anything proprietary it will never "just work" because graphics drivers and such aren't free as in beer yet.

Re:Your Bad Call was... (1, Offtopic)

frup (998325) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990144)

Yeah and just look on their forums how bad their support is. Only in August of this year were they getting XGL and Compiz working, and when one of the people had left his xorg.conf with 32 bit depth, the maintainer of the package didn't say hey you're meant to change that to 24 (like the error message he posted indicated) but hey ho rum tum tum to effect of something useless. That distribution doesn't work... their "famous CNR" is piece of crap with out dated software and breaks very easy. Linspire was the first distro I tried, mainly because I got a free coupon from some random site and had just got broadband... I stayed with it for less than a month because it was so useless. Ubuntu was like a breath of fresh air. Apt-get worked properly on it and CNR is no better than synaptic, just with far less software. Linspire is only better because it comes with codecs... which I only use now to play stuff from my ipod. I don't know why anyone would seriously think that Linspire works better than Ubuntu. Sure I recommend it as an option to idiots but they usually prefer Ubuntu anyway.

Re:Bad Call (5, Insightful)

FateStayNight (1000465) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989310)

inviting people over is an act of courtesy though. It not like he threatened them or made false statements about Novell's future.

Re:Bad Call (3, Interesting)

elysiuan (762931) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989654)

It was a timing and tone issue. And the post to the opensuse dev list was just uncalled for, his widely syndicated blog would've been sufficient. He could have done all the same things, the same Open Ubuntu summit, and explain Canonical/Ubuntu's position on patents as the catalyst without taking this to such a personal level. Shuttleworth has done a lot of good, and he's an intelligent guy. I don't think he should be burned in effigy for this, but it was a bad call.

Re:Bad Call (4, Insightful)

pyite (140350) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990030)

And the post to the opensuse dev list was just uncalled for

Don't have an open mailing list for OpenSUSE if you don't want to deal with sometimes unwanted comments.

Nu-uh (5, Insightful)

msaver (907214) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989334)

Certainly, some developers are not at all pleased with the Microsoft-Novell agreement. Mark is just letting them know they're welcome :P

Anyway, I don't see why this is 'un-Linuxy'. Competition helps OSS thrive, and if you can convince developers to work on your project, why wouldn't you?

The GPL is a Virus (1, Troll)

CDMA_Demo (841347) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989584)

And like most other self replicating life forms infected with "other" viruses, anything infected with the GPL becomes its carrier. The survival of the carrier, and hence the future of its DNA, can easily be attributed to the evolutionary decisions it makes. Think of the GPL as an umbrella under which competing Linux companies are occupied in an evolutionary race, where the viral GPL itself plays the role of a gene, a symbiotic relationship if you prefer. What happens to Linux companies who shoot themselves in the foot? Well, the genes responsible for this behavior cause the demise of said companies, and in the process get wiped out themselves (Lawyers?). These genes are most likely exceptions to the rule because such behavior is not widely observed. The GPL though, has enough hosts already. Move it!

Re:The GPL is a Virus (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989918)

And like most other self replicating life forms infected with "other" viruses, anything infected with the GPL becomes its carrier. The survival of the carrier, and hence the future of its DNA, can easily be attributed to the evolutionary decisions it makes. Think of the GPL as an umbrella under which competing Linux companies are occupied in an evolutionary race, where the viral GPL itself plays the role of a gene, a symbiotic relationship if you prefer.


Michael Crichton?

Is that you?

I think I read pseudo-scientific b.s. like that in Sphere.

Re:The GPL is a Virus (1)

harveyswik (592377) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989960)

People have been saying the GPL is a virus [friday.com] for a real long time now. I tend to agree.

Re:The GPL is a Virus (4, Insightful)

mark-t (151149) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990054)

The GPL doesn't self-replicate. To be passed on, it requires that a programmer invest time and energy to invent a derivative work of a GPL project.

Derivative works of copyrighted works are not allowed at all without permission of the copyright holder anyways... the fact that the copyright holder says that derivative works can be freely created without royalty as long as they are put under the same license is not denying anybody any rights they would have otherwise had. People who bitch about how viral the GPL is should take a long hard look at this fact.

Besides, since the GPL's strength comes from Copyright, and Copyright can't protect ideas, so there's nothing to stop you from learning something from a GPL'd work and then reimplementing the ideas yourself, free of any constraints of the GPL, as long as you don't actually copy any previously copyrighted content that was covered by the GPL (but that has more to do with copyright than the GPL).

Re:Nu-uh (2, Interesting)

krmt (91422) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989590)

Because we're all on the same team. Poaching people from other projects simply isn't done not only because their work will benefit you even if they're working elsewhere, but also because it shows a lack of faith and friendship with other projects who depend on those people. What Mark did was very tacky, and anyone who doesn't recognize why probably isn't involved in any substantial way on a large free software project.

Re:Nu-uh (1, Troll)

houstonbofh (602064) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989728)

Posted on the Ubuntu servers it would be fine. But going into someone elses business and poaching employees is just not right. And in OSS the mailing lists are the "offices" of the distribution.

Re:Nu-uh (0, Flamebait)

killjoe (766577) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990128)

Employees? Offices?

No the mailings lists are not offices. Why would you say such an absurdly stupid thing.

Re:Nu-uh (1)

jack_csk (644290) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989742)

True. When you sleep with a pig, you would smell like the pig.

Anyway, Novell should accept the consequence of having a pact with the devil.

Re:Bad Call (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989338)

The idea of inviting developers to jump ship is too... un-Linuxy. OSS in general is not about getting the most developers, nor is it about sucking projects dry when they make an alliance with the heart of all computing evil. OSS is about choice.
And a choice is exactly what he offered.
 

Re:Bad Call (2, Insightful)

bcat24 (914105) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989878)

Umm, that may be, but the OpenSUSE mailing list is not the place to make that offer. Posting it on his blog is cool. Posting it on another project's developer mailing list is trolling.

Re:Bad Call (5, Insightful)

Daniel Phillips (238627) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990062)

Posting it on another project's developer mailing list is trolling.

Oh, like when Linus posted about Linux on the Minix list?

Re:Bad Call (4, Insightful)

Schraegstrichpunkt (931443) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989482)

Um, what? Who made you the authority on what OSS is "about"?

Also you contradict yourself. You say "OSS is about choice". News flash: Jumping ship is about choice. Mark Shuttleworth is reminding the openSUSE devs of one of the choices available to them.

Also, OSS is very much about attracting developers. Projects without developers don't go anywhere. Projects that have developers do, almost without regard to technical merit (cf. PHP)

Re:Bad Call (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989556)

I would mod you up if I wasn't such an anonymous coward.

I'm getting tired of people saying that OSS is about freedom of choice, and then blasting other developers in the next sentence over choices they've made.

Re:Bad Call (4, Interesting)

jlarocco (851450) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989638)

Also you contradict yourself. You say "OSS is about choice". News flash: Jumping ship is about choice. Mark Shuttleworth is reminding the openSUSE devs of one of the choices available to them.

So, let me get this straight. The openSUSE developers are smart enough to work on openSUSE, smart enough to be welcome to other distros, but too stupid to realize they can work on another distro if they want to?

Whatever OSS is about, Shuttleworth comes off as condescending. The openSUSE developers aren't idiots. If they're unhappy with Novell, they don't need to be reminded of their options.

Also, OSS is very much about attracting developers. Projects without developers don't go anywhere. Projects that have developers do, almost without regard to technical merit (cf. PHP)

Newsflash: Ubuntu is currently one of the most popular Linux distros around. They're not exactly hurting for developers. Certainly not enough to necessitate stealing developers from other distros.

With Ubuntu's questionable inclusion of non-GPL, "binary blob" and closed source drivers, maybe Shuttleworth should worry more about his own distro, and let the openSUSE developers worry about theirs.

Re:Bad Call (4, Insightful)

kz45 (175825) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989994)

"So, let me get this straight. The openSUSE developers are smart enough to work on openSUSE, smart enough to be welcome to other distros, but too stupid to realize they can work on another distro if they want to?"

Not stupid, just ignorant of other options. As long as he wasn't an asshole about it, I see it as fair.

It seems to me that many of the complaints here are due to fear. You are afraid people will actually take him up on the offer.

"With Ubuntu's questionable inclusion of non-GPL, "binary blob" and closed source drivers, maybe Shuttleworth should worry more about his own distro, and let the openSUSE developers worry about theirs."

What you don't realize is that this is the only way a linux distribution has a chance at competing with Windows. Shuttleworth is a (smart) businessman and knows this as well.

Re:Bad Call (1)

slack_prad (942084) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990022)

Mark Shuttleworth is reminding the openSUSE devs of one of the choices available to them.

If they are in a distro developer community they would know about ubuntu and how it works. Novell works on many upstreams(Evolution for one). If people wanted to quit and join ubuntu they would have done that anyway. There was no need to post such an invite. It was cheap.

The article missed this: a reply [ubuntu.com] from one of the open suse devs to the ubuntu=devel list.

Re:Bad Call (1)

pavkam (947790) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990120)

-1 flamebait? Strange sense of perception for someone.

Microsoft developer community? (3, Funny)

feranick (858651) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989282)

Why not targeting many Microsoft developers instead? That would help everybody in the FOSS community.

No - it would do the opposite.. (4, Insightful)

cheros (223479) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989362)

Would you really like to invite MS to sue the crap out of every ex MS developer claiming code taint?

No? Didn't think so either. :-)

Re:No - it would do the opposite.. (1)

feranick (858651) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989418)

If you develop for MS Windows, using your own code, I really don't see what Microsoft has to do with it... Are you saying that every piece of code developed for windows is "property" of Microsoft?

Semantic difference :-) (1)

cheros (223479) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989444)

I read "MS dev" as "dev working for MS", you took the (more sensible) option of "dev working ON MS".

In that case it gets more complicated, because the whole library porting problem shows up. But no, obviously your code is your code..

Re:No - it would do the opposite.. (1)

Ambush Commander (871525) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989452)

Yes. Ever heard of "work-for-hire"?

Re:No - it would do the opposite.. (1)

Ambush Commander (871525) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989464)

Gah, nevermind. You know the saying: if you think someone said something unbelievably stupid, you're probably misunderstanding.

Re:Microsoft developer community? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989384)

Because Microsoft developers are used to getting paid?

He's trying to convince volunteer developers for OpenSUSE to spend their time on Ubuntu instead. He's not trying to poach Novell's developers.

Re:Microsoft developer community? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989414)

Good point.

Most Microsoft developers don't realize that it's only a matter of time before Mr. Ballmer and friends show up to claim their work as Microsoft IP. That's no joke. Microsoft does not play nice with anyone. [PERIOD]

They *will* subtly change the MSDN licenses (they have already) such that *anything* you produce *will* be theirs ... because they *patented* everything in anything that's supplied to a MSDN developer.

Time will tell all. Anyone who has not judged them or is not aware of their (Microsoft's) previous actions is doomed and/or a fool.

GNOME is essentially funded by Microsoft. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989600)

Much of the GNOME development is heavily funded by Novell. As we now see, Novell is heavily funded by Microsoft. Unfortunately, GNOME is also the default Ubuntu desktop environment. So in a way, Ubuntu is directly using software developed by Microsoft.

I'm thankful that Shuttleworth and Canonical support Ubuntu as well as they do. And I'm thankful that they're against this nonsense that Novell has gotten themselves into. Frankly, I'd like to see them take it a step further, and eliminate GNOME as the default Ubuntu desktop. It will, of course, be easily installable if one so chooses to do so. But they should switch to a default desktop environment whose development isn't mainly funded by tainted money coming directly from Microsoft. Not only is it the morally correct thing to do, it also helps eliminate some of the uncertainty that the whole Novell-Microsoft deal has brought to the table.

KDE is the obvious environment to use instead of GNOME. Luckily, the Kubuntu effort has done much of the work towards integrating it with Ubuntu. Many people even find it to be of a higher quality than the default Ubuntu distribution. So in reality, it would not be a very difficult switch to make. Some GNOME fanatics would continue to use GNOME, but the rest of us would end up getting a default Ubuntu desktop environment that works very well, offers a high level of performance, and most importantly is free from the taint and uncertainty that Novell brings to the development process of GNOME.

Re:GNOME is essentially funded by Microsoft. (1)

Mike Savior (802573) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989870)

I believe you're misunderstanding of the situation. Novell and Microsoft buddying up isn't necessarily the best plan, but that is just an extremist RMS-level move you're suggesting. I'm so very glad you posted what you did as AC.

GNOME is funded by *everybody* (4, Interesting)

eklitzke (873155) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989952)

Much of the GNOME development is heavily funded by Novell. As we now see, Novell is heavily funded by Microsoft. Unfortunately, GNOME is also the default Ubuntu desktop environment. So in a way, Ubuntu is directly using software developed by Microsoft.

For better or for worse, GTK is a very attractive GUI toolkit for commercial developers to code with. Hence, Sun, Redhat, and (recently) Novell all write their apps in GTK and use Gnome for the desktop environment. In fact, until very recently Suse was a holdout to this rule, and was very KDE and Qt centric. I would wager that Gnome has seen much more code from Redhat (and Sun) than it has from Novell. And Gnome is still very much a free desktop environment.

As an aside, I would like to point out that despite great protest from KDE fans, it looks like Gnome is winning the desktop wars. Trolltech aside, Gnome and GTK have the most commercial support behind them, and that support is really translating into a huge amount of momentum for Gnome. I have long been a Gnome user, and I remember just a few years ago when the number of KDE users vastly outweighed the number of Gnome users, and now it seems just the opposite. Given this trend, and they heavy investment that Canonical has made in Gnome, it really doesn't make sense for them to switch desktop environments.

KDE: now with more FUD (1)

oohshiny (998054) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990194)

So in a way, Ubuntu is directly using software developed by Microsoft.

That's total bullshit and pure FUD. I guess now that they've run out of technical arguments, the KDE zealots are changing their strategy and spreading FUD about licenses.

KDE is the obvious environment to use instead of GNOME.

KDE is a non-starter for commercial desktop environments because of the cost of Qt for commercial users: that's why Sun, IBM, Ubuntu, RedHat, Eclipse, and SuSE are all basing their major products on Gtk+, not Qt.

Why (Re:Microsoft developer community?) (2, Insightful)

kaiwai (765866) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989776)

I've spent a good weekend of my life trying to get the wireless working with Fedora Core 6, along with Ubuntu; you're really going to attract developers with the half assed, half baked crap that seems to being pushed out by the opensource developers? get the damn product working properly, then maybe those "Microsoft developers" will view Linux as a viable platform to develop on, rather than some operating system for those who wish to waste a whole weekend on trying to get the damn parts working properly.

As for Shuttleworth, its about bloody time he piped down from his grand standing and actually got his damn distribution working correctly out of the box rather than jumping on every Microsoft and competitior bashing bandwagon that goes past his doorway, and instead, actually correct the deficiencies in his distribution; like the lack of WPA configuration and setup - no wpa-gui sucks, its broken and doesn't work.

The day I can dump a ditribution on his oh-so-generic laptop (Toshiba A100) and everything works out of the box, without distorted sound, constant wireless network dropping - then Linux will have made a success on the desktop, until then, it'll be relegated to the server and the desktops of those with way too much time on their hands.

Yeah, I'll get marked down, and a jihad declared on my ass because I *dare* question the almighty penguin agenda, but for christ sake, part of being an adult is accepting praise as well as acknowledging deficiencies and correcting them as they arrise - something which the Linux/OpenSource community is no very good at.

Re:Why (Re:Microsoft developer community?) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16990034)

wireless bridge and ubuntu wpa instructions (assuming you have the right hardware, if you don't, you won't *ever* gett it running).

http://www.debianadmin.com/enable-wpa-wireless-acc ess-point-in-ubuntu-linux.html [debianadmin.com]

i also am upset about lack of wpa support, but i'm not upset with linux or OSS devs. that's dumb. it is the h/w mfrs that screw over the linux distros by not making drivers - or at least allowing the OSS devs to do so.

are you mad at a rock or the guy who threw it at you? you sound like the kinda guy who'd be mad at the rock.

good luck.

Re:Why (Re:Microsoft developer community?) (2, Insightful)

kaiwai (765866) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990104)

Just a couple of points (no necessarily directed at you):

1) Who ever the coward who marked me down, show your face, or are you yet another Linux fanboy unwilling to accept a little criticism of your beloved OS; I have no love for Windows, Linux or what have you; I use what gets the job done, out of the box, with minimum work required; and if Windows does that, then so be it; stop the religious jihad, and start focusing on the problems.

2) Why isn't that WPA information on the ubuntu website? the ubuntu documentation is absolutely crap - would I help out to fix it up? yeap, but not if it requires me to jump through hundreds of hoops just to get something in there.

3) The ipw3945 driver has been available for quite some time; sure, you can distribute the firmware, but there is nothing stopping a distribution like Fedora from including it with their kernel binary; also, why don't they set things up so that when the firmware is installed, you don't need to edit 1/2 dozen files just to make sure that the regulatory daemon loads before the wpa_supplicant, but at the same time, ensuring that the wpa_supplicant is excuted before the eth1-up script is executed.

Its about making sure that your configuration is wise enough to take into account when new drivers are added, and how to handle those new drivers that have been added, so that the different parts are loaded in the correct order - if MacOS X, Windows and others can do the job, why can't Linux?

4) The problem with Linux, more correctly UNIX is that documentation maintainers make grand assumptions, assuming that everyone has atleast 2 years of UNIX under their belt and a keen interest in tinkering around with their system to get things working - the fact is, those who are like me, sure, we have the technical know how, but at the same time, we don't want to sit there for ages trying to get something working, we just want to follow some instructions, and voila, it works.

New distro (5, Funny)

thedarknite (1031380) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989304)

If any number of them were going to jump ship, wouldn't they just create a new distribution. They could recruit people from the Fedora team, Trustix Secure Linux, and Ubuntu.
I'd call it STFU linux.


--
Sometimes people are as stupid as they look.

Re:New distro (1)

jpardey (569633) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989830)

I'd get Arch Linux and Debian in there too...

Re:New distro (2, Funny)

mackyrae (999347) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990032)

One of my friends wants to make STFURMS Linux and make it a Linux/BSD hybrid thing.

one word for Novell: "consequences" (3, Insightful)

toby (759) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989314)

Did you really think there wouldn't be any?

What's the problem? (5, Insightful)

stox (131684) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989326)

I don't see an issue with this. Mark's note was well written, and simply mentions that there are alternatives. It was not malicious or derogatory. As for trying to poach developers, you don't think the like of Novell and RedHat aren't doing that all the time? At least Mark is doing it out in the open, instead of using agents, ie. recruiters, to do it.

Re:What's the problem? (2, Interesting)

iamnafets (828439) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989462)

I don't know if that necessarily is true. I'd much rather leave the back alley poaching "behind the scenes" so to speak. It's kind of like prostitution. You know it's happening, but a lot of times, you just don't want to have to look at it.

Re:What's the problem? (1)

stox (131684) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989790)

Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree. One of the primary attributes of Open Source is the fact that everything is above board and on the table. All of it is open for inspection and critique. This is what makes Open Source better. Mark has fulfilled these criteria, and I commend him for it.

I mostly agree. (1)

khasim (1285) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989842)

As for trying to poach developers, you don't think the like of Novell and RedHat aren't doing that all the time?

To me, it does not matter what someone else did/does. It doesn't make it right if it was wrong to begin with.

But I don't see any problem in letting people who MAY be unhappy with the current situation know what your views on the subject are and that they may find employment with you if they believe that your views more closely match their's.

Hell, we've had this discussion before. What if Microsoft managed a hostile take-over of Red Hat? Would you expect the coders to just accept that or would you expect them to take their knowledge and skills and move to a different distribution?

And would anyone be upset then that Mark was offering employment to them? I would not.

When the company you work with signs deals that you are opposed to (for whatever reason), then there is nothing wrong with someone else offering you a job.

No big deal (2, Insightful)

NineNine (235196) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989330)

No big deal. I mean really, they're not trying to hire them. They're trying to convince these guys to work for them for free instead of the other guys. The "invitation" is an invitation to go to some classes so people can learn how to get accepted to work for free. I can't believe people do this.

Re:No big deal (4, Informative)

digidave (259925) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989442)

A lot of people get paid for it. Many paid Linux developers start by contributing some of their free time, then they are hired by a commercial Linux company. Both Novell and Ubuntu pay many developers. I'm sure Mark is interested in volunteer programmers, but it's also quite possible that he'd hire programmers away from Novell. Don't you think if Miguel de Icaza decided he wanted out of Novell because of this that either Red Hat or Canonical would hire him in an instant?

Re:No big deal (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989518)

Why is this idiot marked up? NineNine is simply the local MS FUDer who runs a bad porn site. Even the post is nothing but a troll. As it is, he makes the distinction between Pay vs. Free. Yet these are paid, just with different money.

Re:No big deal (4, Informative)

Schraegstrichpunkt (931443) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989540)

I can't believe people do this.

And yet it happens enough to cause projects like Linux, KDE, GNOME, OpenBSD, Apache, and so on, to get off the ground. Get used to it.

Michael clearly understands that $20m $368m (1, Insightful)

ezh (707373) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989356)

Mr. Cosmonaut clearly understands that Novell will get a tremendous money advantage over the next few years. It would be enough to lure all bright developers that remain in Debian/Ubuntu world to SUSE. Even RedHat should be aware... Ubuntu needs a big push to get its place under the sun. Currently RedHat and SUSE control the enterprise Linux market. That's why Ubuntu guys want to make it pretty, and even agreed to include binary modules - the goal is to win at all costs. After than they can get more generous and fair, and finally close their bug #1.

damn you slashdot... (1)

ezh (707373) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989372)

damn /. for not being able to edit comments!
Michael == Mark
$20m $368 == $20m lot less than $348

Re:damn you slashdot... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16990014)

Mr. Spacedman, you have heard about "Preview" buttons, right?

Re:damn you slashdot... (1)

chromatic (9471) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990140)

RedHat == Red Hat

I don't see the problem (1)

div_2n (525075) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989366)

In previous posts, I've made it very clear how I firmly disapprove of Novell's selling of their soul.

That being said, I see no problem with this. With the likelihood of developers on the project scratching their heads and wondering what they should do, he extended an invitation. It's up to them whether to accept. It isn't surprised that some on both sides would disapprove and feel threatened.

I can see where some would think this is in bad taste, but letting them know they have a place to go if they want one is a good thing IMO.

More developers is good... (5, Insightful)

Bob54321 (911744) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989370)

I don't think that Mark was saying "Hey, come to Ubuntu, we need more developers" or "You should leave Novell now!". It appears to be more of "Hey, if you're leaving, our distribution has got big fast and there is always an opening for someone we know is good at what they do". Well at least it appears that way to me - just a statement made with good intentions that may have been interpreted by others in a different way. Happens all the time...

I wonder... (1, Interesting)

AVonGauss (1001486) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989390)

I know this is an open invitation for flame bait, but what the hell... I wonder if opinions would change if Novell took a substantial portion of the money Microsoft is giving for pre-purchased SUSE support licenses (say $250 - $350M) and divided it amongst the open source community. Would that make Novell not-so evil and just a little dirty instead?

Re:I wonder... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989534)

What's the point of this unsubstantiated and highly unlike speculation?

If you think it will attract flamebait, are you already admitting you are trolling?

Re:I wonder... (3, Informative)

bl8n8r (649187) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989670)

There's more at stake with the Patent Agreement than just some money changing hands. From what I understand, under the MS/Novell agreement, there would be a potential opportunity for maliciously inserting copyrighted material into the codebase of whatever OSS projects Novell is working on. The codebase could find it's way into other projects too, creating an unintentional derived work off proprietary code. This is why everyone is getting so pissy about the whole thing. There's an Open Letter to Novell on Bruce Peren's website filled with a bunch of sigs of people telling Novell they want nothing to do with them because of this. I posted this link in another comment yesterday. I'm not affiliated, I just think it's worth knowing about, and signing if it suits you. http://techp.org/petition/show/1 [techp.org]

This is about Freedom, not money. (2, Insightful)

khasim (1285) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989936)

Microsoft cannot defeat FOSS through their traditional means.

Microsoft has to, somehow, put a cage around it. It can be a big cage. It can be a HUGE cage. But Microsoft needs to put a cage around it.

Microsoft is trying that with this "patent agreement". It (with Novell's support) splits FOSS into two groups: "Microsoft supported" and "lawyers may sue you".

That gives Microsoft another chance to move the people from the "lawyers may sue you" group into the "Microsoft supported" group. And once they're there, they're in the cage and Microsoft can alter the rules how ever they want, whenever they want.

Which is why I have a problem with Novell's "patent agreement" with Microsoft. Particularly with how Novell is marketing it in Europe where they are pushing the "patent protection" as an important "feature" of SuSE.

Misunderstanding? (1)

apharmdq (219181) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989400)

I'm guessing that Shuttleworth was merely making an offer to any disillusioned developers for openSUSE who may have been considering leaving anyway, in essence offering them a place to go if they do leave. As far as I know, a developer jumping ship from one distro can't just sign on to another distro all that quickly (at least, not for the larger ones), and this offer would just be to inform the developers that they're welcome to work on Ubuntu. After all, the Shuttleworth was polite in the offer, only questioning Novell's business decision rather than the quality of openSUSE. Granted he goes into detail on the structure of Ubuntu's community, but better to give some information than none at all.

But then, I'm rather ignorant of the politics between distros, so perhaps I missed something . . .

Re:Misunderstanding? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989628)

You did. Developers are emotional children, and they act like it.

Well... (4, Insightful)

Godji (957148) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989408)

On one hand this post is blown out of proportion, probably just because it was written by Mark Shuttleworth. Whether he actually intended in his post to lure devs from openSuse to Ubuntu is hard to tell... If he had only posted "Hello", the fact that it's the openSuse list and the poster is the Big Man of Ubuntu would still make people believe he had an evil agenda, or whatnot.

On the other hand, as you will find out if you follow all those links in TFA+TFS, it appears *someone* at Ubuntu decided to ship binary drivers by default (!) in the next version of the OS. Now that is just wrong, for so many reasons. In any case, it doesn't show Ubuntu a pure-FOSS supporting distro. Some claim the decision was made with little or no community input.

And while the Novell/Microsoft deal is little more than corporate FUD, the binary driver issue and the world's most popular desktop disto's handling of the matter, is crucial. We need to pressure the hardware companies to release drivers, and Ubuntu may soon brutally undermine those efforts.

Mark, leave openSuse alone and do something about the binary driver issue. Please.

Re:Well... (3, Interesting)

Handover Phist (932667) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990178)

the binary driver issue and the world's most popular desktop disto's handling of the matter, is crucial. We need to pressure the hardware companies to release drivers, and Ubuntu may soon brutally undermine those efforts.
NVidia, the folks with the currently best closed binary driver, is considering releasing the source after seeing what market there is. Getting others to release a binary driver may open their eyes too by just introducing them to the market. Inclusion is good thing. Besides, releasing binary only is their choice.

Mark Shuttleworth is filtering messages (3, Interesting)

Espectr0 (577637) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989410)

I am amazed that comments on his blog post are being deleted. I posted one around noon remembering him that ubuntu 6.10 uses novell software (gnome 2.16, which includes mono) and that he should be pushing novell to back out of the patent deal with microsoft instead of luring opensuse developers.

Response (5, Interesting)

fabioaquotte (902367) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989412)

Someone sent an amusing response to the ubuntu mailing list:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/200 6-November/022578.html [ubuntu.com]

Re:Response (1)

AVonGauss (1001486) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989498)

Thanks for the link, that was actually interesting and funny. Personally, I would like to think Mark meant well, but in my opinion it was a little bit tacky for the founder of a competing distribution to post an open invitation to join on their mailing list.

Jury still out on this for me... (1, Interesting)

bealzabobs_youruncle (971430) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989420)

I've been an avid Ubuntu user since Breezy and really like the distro and was enamored with Mark's persona early on. Most of his public statements seemed to really back up the Philosophy section of the Ubuntu web site as well, so like many Ubuntu users I felt pretty secure I had made a good choice. But lately I have grown a little concerned with some behavior...

-Recent announcements that closed source drivers would be default installed in Feisty Fawn is a concern for me, this is truly the edge of the slippery slope in some respects.

-The debacle with the art team and Edgy Eft (somewhat explained but I felt maybe a little too much of the SABDFL side was employed, similar to the proprietary drivers in Feisty)

-Now the open letter to OpenSUSE devs, that depending on how you read it might come across as a little disengenuous?

I can't say I'm totally turned off on Ubuntu, and the beauty of Linux is that there is always a distro to scratch your itch, but I am now waiting to see how Mark and Co handle the next few weeks/months to follow up with some of this behavior. I'm not jumping off any cliffs and I am definitely not assuming the worst about all of these things, but they do give me reason to pause.

For the first time in a while I'm distro shopping again, have to see how my laptop likes Fedora Core 6 one of these days. Or maybe things will play out and I"ll be handing out Feisty Fawn CDs to friends, time will tell...

Re:Jury still out on this for me... (1)

ClamIAm (926466) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989770)

I have to say I agree. While I really think it's cool that Ubuntu is basically Shuttleworth paying people to hack together a good distro, the binary drivers issue is a real sticking point for me.

As with most any problem, there are multiple solutions. For this particular problem, one solution would be to support or fund development of reverse-engineered drivers for 3D cards that are currently unsupported in x.org, DRI, etc. Of course, this solution would take time and money, and has elements of uncertainty. I guess Mr. Shuttleworth decided that instead of doing things the hard (read: right) way, it's more important to get uber-leet 3D desktops, while at the same time selling out the community that has insisted on Free drivers.

Re:Jury still out on this for me... (1)

bealzabobs_youruncle (971430) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989852)

I guess the reason it is a big sticking point for me is because Fedora has managed to get it right (with Beryl as a default for supported cards) and not include the proprietary stuff. Like you said, there is more than one way to do this, why not do it in a technically and philosophically correct manner? Help improve the current state of binary driver installs, but don't load them by default.

Hold off? (1)

invisik (227250) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989430)

Is there no wait and see how this turns out, or at first sign of a problem are people really bailing? Sure there's commercial interests vs non-commercial which make the initiatives and reactions different, but come on.

Maybe join one of the independent projects that support all distros if you really disagree....?

-m

Relax, people (1)

straponego (521991) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989440)

Mr. Shuttleworth was not being in the slighest bit inflammatory. I think we're all rational people here, and it's perfectly reasonable to point out that, while this in no way reflects on the many excellent and ethical OpenSuSE developers, Novell has, in fact, been corrupted by NAZI MORMON MICROSOFT POD PEOPLE FROM THE BEYOND! DISCONNECT NOW OR BE ASSIMILATED!

Re:Relax, people (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989568)

'Nazi' and 'Mormon' are about as far apart as any two words can be. Unless you meant 'Moron'

Re:Relax, people (1)

quonsar (61695) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989942)

clearly, you do not live in utah.

Old man? (0, Offtopic)

ebasconp (881992) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989454)

Hi dude!

44 years old and you think you are getting older?

Come on! maybe at 70 years old you can say something like that but not at 44!!!

Stop your arthritis and keep playing Pacman, MoonPatrol, Phoenix, Galaxian, Mario Bros, Doom, Medal of Honor and DotA :) you have all your life on front of you to keep on playing!

They forgot to link to... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989500)

The best part; OpenSuse's satirical response [ubuntu.com] _____________ Kubuntu Edgy User

It's not all that easy. (1)

Asrynachs (1000570) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989514)

I've been in the software development buisness for nearly 14 years now. I have to tell you, we generally try not to burn our bridges. I'm sure it's easy for a lot people who aren't in the biz to go and say that something is 'un-linuxy' but when the bottom line is you either starving to death or scuttling a potential contract because you feel a particular kinship so some piece of software I think you should probably re-evaluate your priorities. Mind you, the whole thing goes the other way, in a sense. I've walked out on several potentially lucrative contracts in my carrear just because I wan't in the mood for all the software and platform changes that came with it. Those were in the early days though. By god in those days were were kings among men!

FOSS is not to be fragile (1)

cyberjessy (444290) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989564)

To be successful, one thing you need is the 'Freedom to make mistakes'.

Perhaps Novell made one, perhaps it did not; it depends on your perspective. But should that one action cause such wide-spread criticism, and calls to abandon the distro and the developers who worked behind it? Even while I have no comment on whether the Novell-MS deal was appropriate, I feel such a reaction is very sad. Is Open Source so fragile?? A fully commercial vendor meanwhile can make its mistakes, learn from it, correct it, move on.

For all the work the guys at Novell have put in (Gnome, Mono, ....) this certainly is silly.

I have been a SUSE user for many years now, and _personally_ I find it the best. I have never really contributed to openSUSE, now I am thinking about how I can help the team in any small way I can.

Why (1)

mikesd81 (518581) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989570)

Is he calling the developers to come because of the ethics of the deal OR selfishness reasons that they need developers?

Re:Why (1)

Zellis (103288) | more than 7 years ago | (#16990124)

Both of course.

Slow news (0, Redundant)

mldqj (779952) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989574)

Next day there will be a slashdot story title "Shark Muddleworth Tries to Lure Ubuntu Devs" about this letter titled "Invitation to ubuntu developers" sent by a "Shark Muddleworth" to the ubuntu-devel mailing list:

Canonical's recent decision to include proprietary GPL violating drivers in the default install, circumventing the copyright framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an ubuntu developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this fact, you may be interested in opensuse

We would be happy to help people who want to join the openSUSE community - in any capacity, including developers and package maintainers. If you want to find out how openSUSE works you can communicate with the community (see http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate [opensuse.org] ). A special introductory session is being organised for mid December, watch this space.

openSUSE is structured to empower our community to get things done, and to maximise the opportunity for collaboration between teams that share a common vision. Such tools as the openSUSE build service (http://build.opensuse.org/) help empower our community.

If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of GPL violations, and focussing on creating the most usable Free software desktop, then please do join us.

I know that posting this message to an ubuntu list will be trolling^WControversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of excellence in the Ubuntu product and community and have no desire to undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position taken by Ubuntu leadership in their inclusion of non-gpled kernel modules linked to the GPLed kernel is disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL kernel programmers and contributors to Ubuntu, and I know that many are looking for a new place to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive intervention. openSUSE is one option, as are Fedora, gnewsense other communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.

Some openSUSE members

_

Disclaimer:

Response to http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg0376 5.html [opensuse.org] , intended to highlight the inappropriateness of the original mail. Although based on facts, the above content is intended satirical and not to attack ubuntu or offend.

Do it Mark (1)

Xisiqomelir (735729) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989656)

You have the user-friendly distro. (Awesome) You have the distro that gearheads recommend to non-gearheads (I switched 2 off XP) You have a solid release schedule (Take THAT PHBs!) Grab the techies and take Ubuntu to that next step. I have to assume that SOME of them drink the Kool-Aid and are religiously anti-M$/Pro-FSF/YAYLINUX etc (Goddamn) You look kinda cool.

Corel/Microsoft & Novell/Microsoft - look deep (5, Informative)

lotusleaf (928941) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989666)

Did Microsoft hold secret talks with Novell prior to any public announcement to any agreement?

If so, I would hope openSUSE developers would be more concerned about this, rather than a clearly *open* offer from Shuttleworth. I used SUSE for several years prior to Novell coming into the SUSE picture, before I switched to Ubuntu Linux.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I think Mr. Shuttleworth is brilliant.

Look, if Microsoft wanted to bring Windows and Linux together, why didn't they do it when they partnered with Corel around six years ago? (if, indeed, it was a partnership, correct me if I'm wrong please) Does anyone remember Corel Linux? It, like Ubuntu, was a Debian based Linux distribution, with an easy to use graphical installer! And this was around six years ago! (There was even a Corel Linux for Dummies book, check Amazon dot com and see for yourself) Anyone who wants to gain an enlightened perspective can google about Corel Linux and Microsoft and inform themselves. Here are a few important articles:

"Corel Sells Out To Microsoft" [forbes.com]

"Interview: Corel's Linux VP on the Microsoft deal" [cnn.com] @ CNN 10/16/2000

"Microsoft Faces New Antitrust Probe Over Corel Deal" [washingtonpost.com]

"Government lawyers want to know more about a deal in which Microsoft gave Corel, perhaps best known for its WordPerfect program, $135 million in exchange for 24 million shares of Corel stock last October." "After the investment, Corel announced it would retreat from developing software designed to run on the Linux operating system, which competes with Microsoft's Windows operating system." - quotes source [washingtonpost.com]

"Microsoft Litigation" [groklaw.net] List - Educate yourself

I ask you: Who do YOU trust?

Do you want open meetings and discussions? Isn't that what an open source community thrives on? Or do you want secret meetings?

For those of you who would rather crack chair throwing or developer jokes and ignore the issue, read for yourself in an interview with Bill Gates dated 11/17/2006 where he mentions Novell, indemnification, and the word pioneering all in the same reponse to a question:

"Gates on Vista, Linux and more" [com.com]

History repeats itself, and I believe, in my opinion, we're seeing it happen right now. IMO the Corel/Microsoft events in history should not be ignored. In fact, I suggest they be looked at again closely and compared to the present Novell/Microsoft events for educational purposes. :) Google for yourself and see, there are a lot of juicy articles out there on this. And yes, I know about Xandros, my point is about where Corel Linux was headed.

It is a positive development. (0)

Frosty Piss (770223) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989682)

It is a positive development. (Although I am no fan of Ubuntu - because I am no fan of Gnome - or even of Kubuntu, which I tried.)

I have a fantasy in which OpenSuse collapses and the Novell BOD comes to its senses, fires Hovsepian, and repudiates the deal with MS. I would love to see something like this because I like Suse a lot.

I see nothing wrong with this! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989688)

Blog for Burgundavia wrote - "I feel that Mark's mail (and subsequent blog post) were not called for. Stuff like what Mark did is simply not done. I believe Ubuntu to be the technically better distribution but I absolutely respect the OpenSUSE people and the awesome work that they are doing. There is no need to poach developers and users from each other, especially in this manner."

First of all I never remember reading the Holy Linux Distro Guide to Distro Etiquette or the reference that says such activity is "is simply not done" or "thow shalt not poach another distro's coders" ... This is scatimonious blather that has no basis or reference point. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with Mr. Shuttleworth's actions. One is free to participate, code and have freedom of association - WITHOUT the approval of others. Mr. Shuttleworth does not need this man's approval.

In fact I have enjoyed Ubuntu and Debian and I have not really cared for Redhat/Fedora and Suse (mainly because I find apt technically superior and I have DLL hell with Redhat/Fedora - another rant which has been well covered).

By all means I hope he snarfs all the Suse coders ... no one should have to translate the writing on the wall ... meanwhile I hope that their distro is note divided and given to the Medes and Persians :D

blog quote made me lol (4, Funny)

bunions (970377) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989712)

Stuff like what Mark did is simply not done.

his emphasis

Ok, there's two, warring stereotypes here. First:

Did anyone else picture that being posted by Sir Fauntleroy Etherbottom III directly after his monocle flew right off into the crumpets?

"I dare say, this Shuttleworth fellow is the worst kind of bounder. This sort of thing is just not done!"

Second:
"Stuff like what Mark did"

Ok, Cletus, simmer down! Y'know cousin Mark ain't been right lately, not since his ol' smell hound done up and runned off.

Wonder what Miguel thinks about that... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989720)

Why does that whole thing remind me of the Gnome announcement posted on the KDE mailing list on Aug 15 1997... Now that Miguel works at Novell would be interesting to hear what he thinks about that post :-)

Peter.

Infighting within the linux communities... (2, Insightful)

dr_strang (32799) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989822)

... is EXACTLY what would benefit Microsoft the most. Sowing the seeds of paranoia and distrust WITHIN your enemy's community is a classic tactic.

Say what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16989910)

MS/Novell offered a punch in the face to most linux users, blatantly, followed up by a threat of some unspecified legal action in the future. Shuttleworth offered an up-front hand out in friemdship. This is some how wrong? How?

I don't even use ubuntu but I can't see this as anything but a sincere offer. That some are seeing this as an insult might go to show how they are in shock and still in complete denial over what happened, that maybe they picked the wrong company to support. Stuff happens, things change, and a responsible adult will recognize when they have been shafted/conned and move on. Novell and MS are the bad guys here, maybe it's time for the "insulted" ones to drop the cognizant dissonance stance?

Want an obvious parallel where a lot of "true believers" finally had to recognize they had been conned and swallowed their false pride and moved on because they at least make an attempt to be responsible adults? The last US election. Millions of neocon supporters finally got adult enough to realise they had been conned by *liars* and didn't vote for those they might have voted for before, because data and events had finally come to a head and it was obvious who the bad guys were/are.

It's the same here lately in linux-land. Live in denial of the obvious data, or be a responsible adult and realise who your real friends are.

There's no shame or embarassment in being conned one time, it can happen to anyone, but to keep falling for the same con despite having the evidence shown to you that it is happening falls into some destructive cult-like behavior.

Go back in computer history and see what association with microsoft has done to company after company. Do you like what you see, or does it look...wrong?

Learn from history and move on, or keep falling for the con, a binary choice there. It might be a hard decision for some, but it is not hard to see..not hard at all.

Relax (1)

BroadbandBradley (237267) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989946)

how's he hurting anything? not like he's poking fun at them for being in bed with the enemy.

really, I mean people love to get worked up over the littlest things, how dare he suggest that I co-operate with someone else!!!!!

Seems to me... (4, Insightful)

Eric Damron (553630) | more than 7 years ago | (#16989950)

Mark said something a little brassy that needed to be said.

Each of us must decide if the Novell/Microsoft deal changed the way we fundamentally view Novell and Suse. That is even more true of anyone developing a platform that is a part of this deal.

Maybe they can help (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#16990150)

Maybe the people jumping ship can help Ubuntu. Ubuntu is a good distro, but it still needs some work. For one it is ugly as hell. SUSE was very nice looking and well just pretty. The ones jumping ship can help make Ubuntu nicer looking, pretty. Although under no circumstances allow them near the update managment package system for Ubuntu. Granted Ubuntu needs some work with its update managment package system, but it is far better than SUSE. We dont want another fiasco happening to Ubuntu like SUSE with the 10.1 release.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?