Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

John Dvorak On Vista's Launch

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the he-said-lunch-not-launch dept.

Windows 382

An anonymous reader writes "John is at it again, this time with his take on the launch of Microsoft's Vista operating system. John covers the reality from a market perspective, looking at whether the release will affect PC sales, peripherals ... or even Microsoft." From the article: "While there is no way that Vista will be a flop, since all new computers will come with Vista pre-installed, there seems to be no excitement level at all. And there does not seem to be any compelling reason for people to upgrade to Vista. In fact, the observers I chat with who follow corporate licensing do not see any large installations of Windows-based computers upgrading anytime soon. The word I keep hearing is 'stagnation.' Industry manufacturers are not too thrilled either. One CEO who supplies a critical component for all computers says he sees a normal fourth quarter then nothing special in the first quarter for the segment. Dullsville."

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Dvorak... Reality... ??? (5, Funny)

Kelson (129150) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053068)

John covers the reality from...

Is this the same Dvorak we've all come to know and love [slashdot.org] ? Who thinks Microsoft should buy Opera [slashdot.org] , that CSS doesn't work [slashdot.org] because he couldn't figure out what "cascading" meant, and admits to trolling Mac users [slashdot.org] ?

Oh, wait, he's making disparaging remarks about Microsoft! I'm sorry I ever doubted you, John!

Actor Edward Norton dead at 37 (-1, Troll)

NosTROLLdamus (979044) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053322)

LOS ANGELES, Nov. 30 (AP) -- Actor Edward Norton has died of cancer. He was 37.

Norton starred or appeared in more than 25 films in his short career, which spanned only a decade, the Hollywood Press reports.

Norton was famous for his acting flexibility, playing the roles of haughty aristocrats as well as middle-class men and others.

One of his most famous films was the controversial "Fight Club," in which he played an insomniac who starts a club with a dangerous hobby.

Re:Dvorak... Reality... ??? (0, Troll)

nadamsieee (708934) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053526)

John Dvorak [google.com] is a troll. Nuf' said.

Re:Dvorak... Reality... ??? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053606)

So...? Why shouldn't Microsoft buy Opera? They could use an updated, standards-based rendering engine... and CSS could use a lot of fixing and the use of the word cascading is somewhat ambiguous when you live next to the Cascade mountains. At least he invented a kick ass keyboard [wikipedia.org] . Give the guy some credit.

Re:Dvorak... Reality... ??? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053676)

Oh, wait, he's making disparaging remarks about Microsoft! I'm sorry I ever doubted you, John!

Hey, even a stopped watch is right twice a day.

Stop linking Dvorak (2, Insightful)

Mateo_LeFou (859634) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053094)

Blatant Shill. Stop linking him. Stop completely. Please

Re:Stop linking Dvorak (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053182)

perhaps we need a Santorum-esque redefinition of the word Dvorak.

Re:Stop linking Dvorak (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053694)

perhaps we need a Santorum-esque redefinition of the word Dvorak.
The word/name Dvorak already rings up bias in my mind. I don't know if it is the religion (defined by belief in a product/company) or the pseudo-science (called science) which bugs me more. Either way, the articles are either +5 Funny (how could this be written) or +5 FlameTroll (again, how could this be written). Either way, the articles are not intellgently designed.

Re:Stop linking Dvorak (3, Insightful)

WED Fan (911325) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053460)

This from tolerant Slashdotters.

I love how if an opinion goes against The Accepted Slashdotter Standard (A.S.S.), the cry goes out to mod down or refuse to publish.

Re:Stop linking Dvorak (3, Interesting)

Mateo_LeFou (859634) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053546)

Wrong. Dvorak persistently gets fundamental, entry-level facts wrong about the matters he reports. There is also a video (I'm too lazy to link it) in which he confesses that his main purpose in writing is to piss people off and drive traffic.

Paul Thurott is an example of someone with a favorable opinion of MS, whose opinion is generally respected here because it is usually well-researched

Re:Stop linking Dvorak (2, Insightful)

s20451 (410424) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053642)

There is also a video (I'm too lazy to link it) in which he confesses that his main purpose in writing is to piss people off and drive traffic.

If true, that makes him a polemist, not a shill.

Same with everything (2, Insightful)

El Lobo (994537) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053154)

Actually, to be honest, there is no **REAL** reason to upgrade to the new Linuz kernel either, or to get the new OS X Felis Domesticus for some houndred bucks whatever the bloat they decide to add, and so on. people will upgrade if

* They just get a new computer

* They just (like me) are willing to upgrade (I'll get Vista the day it gets out)

* They will have the need to upgrade to run new specific stuff

* Or just because.

Re:Same with everything (2, Insightful)

Mateo_LeFou (859634) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053232)

You're right, the reasons to upgrade your kernel are not always obvious (until e.g. a 2.6 major release version or something) and the benefits are not always tangible.

But the good news is that upgrading the various Linuces is pretty much as easy as "yum upgrade" or the equivalent. So you don't have to fret and stress over whether it'll be worth it.

When nobody knows how the internals really work, the process involves considerable risk.

Re:Same with everything (2, Informative)

august sun (799030) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053490)

But the good news is that upgrading the various Linuces is pretty much as easy as "yum upgrade" or the equivalent. So you don't have to fret and stress over whether it'll be worth it.

*cough* [slashdot.org]

Re:Same with everything (1)

AusIV (950840) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053806)

You just linked to an article about upgrading from Dapper Drake to Edgy Eft. There's a difference between the kernel and the version of your distro. In fact, I believe Dapper and Edgy use the same version of the kernel (if you've let Adept automatically update your kernel). I didn't even notice when my kernel got upgraded.

The line you quote makes it sound like you're talking about upgrading the distro, but the parent was talking about the kernel, which is quite simple to upgrade.

Re:Same with everything (1)

smitty_one_each (243267) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053302)

Actually, to be honest, there is no **REAL** reason to upgrade to the new Linuz kernel either
I suppose if security isn't high on your requirements list, or new drivers, then what you say is true.
Then again, you could go retro chic and just run Lotus123, WordStar, and Paradox on an old DOS 3.3 box.
d00d! You'd be teh untouchable! (In the security, Costner [imdb.com] , and Dalit [wikipedia.org] senses of the word.)

Re:Same with everything (-1, Troll)

otacon (445694) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053370)

Aside from the fact that the newest Linux kernel comes with a variety of new features and changes, a kernel upgrade is easy, and oh yeah....Free. Upgrading to Vista costs money. I'm actually glad you will be upgrading to Vista on day 1, because only a fool would pay someone to use software that raped their system resources. Wrong audience MS fanboy

Re:Same with everything (2, Insightful)

Yusaku Godai (546058) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053652)

To be fair, the new version of the kernel in Vista has some interesting features and changes as well. I don't have time to enumerate them right now, but it's worth saying.

However you're certainly right that upgrading my Linux kernel is generally easy, and can be done without updating the entire OS. This is one of many things that makes Windows annoying >:(

Re:Same with everything (5, Insightful)

suggsjc (726146) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053928)

Wrong audience
That is what is wrong. The parent posted FACTS (that he was going to get Vista, along with most everyone else) and since it isn't pro-FOSS its considered fud.

I like /. because I can get tech news with some occasional informed/insightful debate on the topic. However, I'm reading the comments less and less because of people like you that can get modded insightful for comments that have ZERO pertinence to the topic. Its no wonder that every year is the "year of the linux desktop" on /. because you have a safe little niche of like minded zealots that will agree with you unconditionally.

Its narrow minded sentiment like this that actually keeps people from switching to linux and its surrounding projects. You called the man a fool for stating a FACT. Instead of negative sentiment about M$ why not just give the reasons/FACTS of why linux and FOSS is a better solution. The results might surprise you, unless the only result that you expect from your generosity is for the people you to help to gain your zealotness.

Go ahead and mod me whatever, I've got karma to burn from making insightful posts...

Re:Same with everything (1)

Slime-dogg (120473) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053446)

*An exploit is found, which requires a new kernel. MS needs a hook. The PS/2 had a DVD player in it. That was a hook. There is no hook for Vista, and it's difficult to comprehend the type of "killer app" which would use it over any other iteration of Windows.

Re:Same with everything (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053870)

The PS/2 had a DVD player in it.

Now there's a trick, a DVD player in 1987.

Re:Same with everything (2, Insightful)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053486)

Actually, to be honest, there is no **REAL** reason to upgrade. . .

Yes, that's the point. You're not supposed to even be able think that to point it out. Microsoft sells sizzle, not steak. They need people to care, or the whole thing comes tumbling down.

KFG

Not true, useful features compel upgrade (1, Insightful)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053502)

Each version of OS X has shipped with a number of things that were productivity boosters - Spotlight and Dashboard in Tiger, and with Leopard you are going to see things like Time Machine which brings version control to the masses!

Similarily with Linux updates have included ever more useful windowing systems and application software - you could of course have added parts piecemeal but it's pretty handy to load a whole distro.

The problem with Vista is that it doesn't even offer anything as compelling as a new Linux distro would have - basiclly the insides have been re-worked to some extent, and the window manager is improved. But it's not like you need Vista to run the new Office. The only thing you do need Vista for is DirectX 10, and most games are probably going to still support DX9 for some time as it's a huge market.

So what would be the reason to move to Vista over something offering real features like Leopard or even the latest Red Hat?

Re:Not true, useful features compel upgrade (1, Offtopic)

El Lobo (994537) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053730)

Well, if you add Spotlight and Dashboard to your list and consider it a worth upgrade then I consider the following to be worth an upgrade too:
*Windows Aero
* Shell stacks
* Breadcrumbs view
* Per-user UI language
* Desktop Search
* Sidebar
* New driver model (including DX10)
* Protected-Mode IE
* BitLocker Drive Encryption
* Smart cards to store Encrypting File System etc.

Re:Not true, useful features compel upgrade (1)

traindirector (1001483) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053882)

Each version of OS X has shipped with a number of things that were productivity boosters - Spotlight and Dashboard in Tiger, and with Leopard you are going to see things like Time Machine which brings version control to the masses!

While Vista isn't very exciting, you apparently don't know much about it. I would contend that more features useful have been added than in any single point upgrade to OS X. Probably even two of them. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windo ws_Vista [wikipedia.org] .

The problem with Vista is that it doesn't even offer anything as compelling as a new Linux distro would have

It would be much more apt to compare the release of Vista to a new version of an existing Linux distro. A new Linux distro is expected to bring something new and worthwhile to the table...

Re:Same with everything (3, Interesting)

Fulkkari (603331) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053646)

I disagree. Let's take the two latest and the upcoming release of OS X as an example:

  • 10.3 Exposé, FileVault
  • 10.4 Spotlight, Dashboard
  • 10.5 Time Machine, Spaces

Every new release have had tons of new features that have actually been useful. If Microsoft has troubles adding new useful features to their OS, that does not mean that others have the same problem. Don't judge other operating systems based how Microsoft is doing.

Re:Same with everything (3, Interesting)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053794)

Assuming you started with 10.2 and not 10.1 that means over $300 worth of updates if you did them all. Were those features worth $300? Just askin'...

Re:Same with everything (1)

rising_hope (900951) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053868)

Good luck! Better test RC1 public beta first before you buy. Driver support is still shaky and many applications simply refuse to install correctly. Personally, I wouldn't upgrade - I'd buy new hardware that I knew would actually work. All in all, though, it's a cool OS, but I largely decided I'll wait a year until software and hardware vendors have time to catch up on everything.

PS (4, Funny)

Mateo_LeFou (859634) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053166)

Firefox prevented this site from opening 3 popup windows.

Isn't that the problem? (2, Insightful)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053188)

When you have an entire industry where pretty much only one company supplies a critical part, the entire industry is dependent on that one company. It would be nice to get away from the single-supplier issue, much like there are two major suppliers for processors, a half-dozen dozen chipset makers and so on.

Re:Isn't that the problem? (2, Insightful)

TerminalWriter (953282) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053712)

"It would be nice to get away from the single-supplier issue, much like there are two major suppliers for processors, a half-dozen dozen chipset makers and so on."

As nice as that thought is, how would you go about forcing another OS vendor on the market to have an impact?

Microsoft needs a better marketing strategy... (3, Funny)

creimer (824291) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053200)

Windows Vista Premium with a free high-end computer to run it on.

effect != affect (0, Troll)

dircha (893383) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053208)

"whether the release will [a]ffect PC sales, peripherals ... or even Microsoft."\

Re:effect != affect (1)

bidule (173941) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053500)


But it started so right! It *will* "effect PC sales", it may even cause peripherals (to come to life). But Microsoft? Whatever "effected" Microsoft has come to pass more than a score of years ago.

The current score is: Grammar nazis: +Inf, submitters: 0.

Everyone knows (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053216)

Windows is the most serure OS

Re:Everyone knows (1)

thepotoo (829391) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053392)

Everyone knows Windows is the most serure OS

If everyone really knew, you wouldn't have to post that as an AC.

Re:Everyone knows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053952)

Ya know what? I've been trying to pronounce that word for the past 5 minutes, and the closest thing to a real word is 'sewer'. So,

Windows is the sewer OS.

Yup, couldn't agree more.

And yet, someone mod'ed this redundant.....

Let me guess... (1)

dedazo (737510) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053280)

Last week Dvorak was an idiot, but today he's the best tech columnist in the world.

Re:Let me guess... (5, Funny)

CodeArtisan (795142) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053414)

Last week Dvorak was an idiot, but today he's the best tech columnist in the world.
Even a broken watch is right twice a day.

Re:Let me guess... (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053450)

Even a stopped clock is right once a day. Or, like Dvorak, once if it's digital. Except "day" in this case is more like the "days" in Genesis... And I'm talking about the bible, not the band. Or the Star Trek plot device.

Re:Let me guess... (3)

Shawn is an Asshole (845769) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053552)

He's an idiot every week. Some less than others. Slashdot needs to stop promoting every article he writes, though.

Though he's right (4, Informative)

abradsn (542213) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053296)

I've seen and worked with vista already. Here were my impressions.

It is really hard to lose your work. It is really easy to find your files.

It is a lot prettier.

The GUI for the system has been re-engineered and it is easier to use. Other applications have been rewritten to have the same look and feel so that the system as a whole will be easier to use.

It was not stable when I used it.

Re:Though he's right (4, Insightful)

jimstapleton (999106) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053356)

my question:

How does this
It is really hard to lose your work.
fit with this
It was not stable when I used it.
without creating a universe-shattinger paradox?

WHAT? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053624)

i used in for some times and you know what, it SUCK you may ask why oh god why you are so nasty... first everything point to the mothership whatever you will be doing, lets say searching with IE 7 you know what by default it links to where windows live, then you have all those crazy defenders, offenders apps all over including windows marketplace wtf click here to determine best software for your computer then you end up where fucked microsoft site and dont get me started with DRM and 30 days or no computer to start... yes maybe gui is nice but open a terminal and then will will talk, i call it load of crap from microshaft!

peace!

Re:Though he's right (1)

Kelson (129150) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053892)

How does this
It is really hard to lose your work.
fit with this
It was not stable when I used it.

Hmm, no experience with it personally, but here's a possibility:

Unstable OS + good crash recovery = crashes, but doesn't lose your work?

Re:Though he's right (1)

thepotoo (829391) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053518)

It is a lot prettier.

The GUI for the system has been re-engineered and it is easier to use. Other applications have been rewritten to have the same look and feel so that the system as a whole will be easier to use.

It was not stable when I used it.

That is, in effect, Microsoft strategy. They think that if everyone likes how their desktop looks, they won't mind that their box is a zombie spewing worms to all the other computers.

That's the entire reason Microsoft's empire will probably collapse over the next 10-15 years: linux focuses on security and stability (reading 6 months uptime with no problems here), while its GUI looks like, well, to put it bluntly, we're competing with windows 98 on looks. But under the hood, Linux is far, far better than Vista.

Hopefully customers will realize this.

Re:Though he's right (1)

Prophet of Nixon (842081) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053828)

I wouldn't say Linux looks that bad... I don't even really like Linux, but I think the last 2 default Gnome GUIs in Fedora have looked much nicer than Windows XP or Vista (granted I've only used Vista briefly with some sort of mostly black interface; though it was quite ugly). I'd like to see those skins on Windows.

Re:Though he's right (0, Flamebait)

HolyCrapSCOsux (700114) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053876)

It's not really up to the consumers. Unfortunately.
Linux needs:
  Quickbooks (not Gnucash)
  World of Warcraft
  Photoshop (not Gimp)
  MS-Office (or OpenOffice with 100% interoperability and renamed symlinks with "Word" substituting "Write" etc.)
  an IE clone that LOOKS ans ACTS the same as IE (including the bad stuff)
  etc.
  etc.

Users are used to Windows. They are used to the programs that they use in Windows. Why should they change? they don't buy Windows, they buy a computer...with Windows.

If they got a Linspire machine or whatever, they would be mad when the kid's game that came in the box of Life Ceral they bought yesterday doesn't work.

The DEVELOPERS need to make the switch before anyone else can.

Re:Though he's right (1)

0racle (667029) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053750)

Heres mine: It pissed me off. That is the second most irritating OS I have used, this morning it refused to open the control panel and WIndows Defender popped up to tell me nothing every few minutes. Though to be honest, I haven't used it all that much.

Just for the record, the most irritating is currently SCO OpenServer.

why is slashdot, a news site, posting that... (1)

jimstapleton (999106) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053312)

"people aren't interested in vista"

In the words of Carlos Mencia...

THAT'S NOT NEWS!

Re:why is slashdot, a news site, posting that... (1)

Kelson (129150) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053834)

THAT'S NOT NEWS!

But is it stuff that matters?

"there seems to be no excitement level at all" (4, Interesting)

sottitron (923868) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053316)

I think Microsoft made a big mistake by releasing Vista to businesses first. I think consumers are somewhat excited about Vista or will be when the majority of them actually see Aero in action. In general, businesses don't need Vista or care about the new thing because however you want to package it, its going to cost them more money. The only thing accurate about this article is that Vista will not be a flop because it won't be long before you can only buy a new computer with Vista on it. As that happens, and as more computers get into the hands of consumers, business will have to catch up.

Re:"there seems to be no excitement level at all" (2, Insightful)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053596)

I think Microsoft made a big mistake by releasing Vista to businesses first.
Is it still a mistake if you consider the corporate customers as beta testers?

I'd hope that this corporate pre-release makes for a much smoother public release of Vista.

Nit pick (1)

jacem (665870) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053710)

Businesses do a lot of word processing and some spreadsheet and DB stuff. From the business point of view windows 3.11 and a WYSIWYG word processor is about all I need. As a business person I haven't been excited about any new features in productivity ware since about 1992.

JACEM

Re:"there seems to be no excitement level at all" (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053744)

> Vista will not be a flop because it won't be long before ...

Vista can be the Edsel of computers.

The Edsel was the best Big American Car. It had all the features and acessories that were available, including some that were novel. It was overhyped and was delivered late.

The problem was not so much the car itself, or the marketing, but that the public decided it did not want a Big American Car, but wanted a compact or a foreign import, or more to the point, two small cars instead of one big one.

Vista is trying to be everything - a computer, a media centre, a games machine, internet access, telephone, all in one with every feature.

But only one person can use it at a time. Just like a Big American Car it lacks flexibility because it can only have one driver. For the same price as one 'all doing' Vista machine with Office and all the bells and whistles, you should be able to buy 2 or more 'foreign imports' (linux) or 'compacts' (like a miniMac) and/or recycle existing machines and link them together so that the family can all access everything they want without queuing for it.

Some years ago Bill Gates noted a survey that found that in most homes the TV and the computer were in the same room. He concluded that this meant that people wanted these to be integrated as one unit. No. Bill, it is because most families don't have 22 room mansions and because _some_ want to watch the one TV while others use the one computer, they don't all have a TV and a computer each.

Re:"there seems to be no excitement level at all" (1, Redundant)

yodleboy (982200) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053824)

i agree, i've been running the final build of Vista Ultimate since it was released to MSDN subscribers a couple of weeks ago. I wouldn't go back to XP (although i do have a ghosted pre-vista copy of my pc handy). most of the new features or enhancments are not earth shattering, but taken as a whole, they provide a much improved windows experience. search is light years ahead of XP. Aero is not a revolution, but it is nice. no complaints on stability either at this point. If you ever thought 'damn, xp is so close', then move to vista. is it perfect, no. but it's a positive step forward. i wouldn't consider my pc 'high end', and i get great performance in vista. Athlon64 3200+ 2x 250 GB 7200rpm Maxtor 1GB PC3200 DDR Geforce 6600GT 128MB and no, i'm not just checking email, these apps work as well or better: HL2 & STEAM,Prey,FEAR,CIV3, Photoshop CS, DVD Decrypter,DVD Shrink, AVAST!, Firefox, NERO 7, TMPGenc, Newsbin Pro. i will file a complaint about 'plays for sure'... my Creative Zen don't connect to my PC anymore. damn you vista. why does dvorak use so many buzzzzz words. i used to like his articles, but it's getting harder to stand him. he sounds like a commercial.

I think they needed too (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053984)

Although it is rarely mentioned anymore MS sold a lot of companies some kind of software assurance policy or whatever. Rather then just buy a specific piece of software you paid a higher fee but that would give you ALL the new releases for a certain period.

The problem? No new releases within that period. Vista's business launch I think is designed to still fall just inside that period so that MS doesn't look like it screwed its customers over, and all those IT heads who bought this software assucrance crap don't look like complete and utter morons.

Note that business as a whole doesn't like to adopt new software, especially MS software, at launch so not many businesses will actually install it. Hell, the birmingham opensource story mentioned windows 3.1, that should give you an idea about how urgent some business places consider upgrading.

But MS meets its promises, even if no company can actually risk making use of it, it makes the headline that Vista is out while in reality it buys another few months of testing before the real launch and the real test.

MS doesn't do the seperated launch for any other reason that they ain't got a choice. A, they need to give their business customers their promised free upgrade and B, Vista just ain't ready for consumers yet. (nor for businesses users either but see point A)

Zonk does it again! (4, Interesting)

smooth wombat (796938) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053320)

Is it really that difficult for you to give credit where credit is due, Zonk? Not only did you take the exact same title as my journal entry [slashdot.org] , you put the submission down to an anonymous reader. Throw in that you kept the exact same first line I used and your bias shows through.


Seriously Zonk, if you're never going to accept stories from me while you're on duty, at least have the guts to email me and tell me. It will save us both time and effort. This nonsense is just childish.

Re:Zonk does it again! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053778)

Yes, Zonk is an ass. But really -- why do you care? Why do you waste your time on a site like this? It's been shown, over and over, that the "editors" have no interest in anything except generating page hits. Have you really not figured that out yet? This site is good only for humor (such as laughing at the stupidity of the editors and posters) and to relieve monotony on the job.

A lack of new features? Good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053368)

In most offices, the OS is just an app loader. It's used to load the accounting system, parts lookup system, word processor, etc. That's it. We don't want photo albums, animated icons, or a mouse pointer that has 3000 add-in widgets. Just load the apps and stay out of the way.

Effectively... (3, Insightful)

drsmithy (35869) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053378)

The lack of "buzz" around Vista and apathy towards upgrading - despite its myriad improvements - are a tacit acknowledgement of just how good Windows 2000 and XP were(/are)...

Im not so sure (3, Funny)

also-rr (980579) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053402)

All the pointy hair types I meet seem to know all about it. Was there a massive golf and martini day I wasn't told about somewhere in the UK? Has there been one day recently when *all* of your senior management - and everyone else's - went missing?

I'd call it brainwashing but that isn't very plausible considering the target audience ;)

Took a while for XP also (3, Interesting)

revlayle (964221) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053410)

A lot of corporate entities didn't upgrade to XP from 200 for a few years either. Some places STILL run a significant number of 2000 workstations and some servers.

Re:Took a while for XP also (1)

superpulpsicle (533373) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053662)

Processing power is expensive in a datacenter and windows 2000 IMHO was the last version that did a decent job of not sucking all of it up. Vista just sounds like another processor/ram hog like 2003.

I'd be impressed if they ever came out with another OS the speed of windows 95 to tell you the truth.

Re:Took a while for XP also (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053812)

We finally got rid of 98 boxes last year. It will be at least 3 years and probably more like 5 years before we move to Vista. Everyone I have talked to dreads it, no one has figured out why we need to "upgrade" when it doesn't gain us anything except a need to retrain several hundred users. I could see us never upgrading to Vista as long as products like Dreamweaver and Creative Suite continue to be released for XP. Office2003 is good enough for everything we do.

Re:Took a while for XP also (1)

Methuseus (468642) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053832)

I worked at a company after Windows XP came out that was just starting to look at the possibility of upgrading from NT4.0 to 2000. They literally had just installed their first 2000 test workstation about 6 months after XP was released.

This looks right - why bad mouth it? (3, Interesting)

leegaard (939485) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053436)

Ok They are not hyping the launch They are not trying to stuff it down your throat They are making an OS that takes advantage of next gen hardware to improve performance further Why is all this a bad thing that deserves to be berated like Dvorak does?? I am writing this on Vista, and as far as I have seen and read - this seems like a pretty solid release (where things are done right albeit the microsoft way) with lots and lots of potential.

It's the applications, stupid (4, Interesting)

Mark Programmer (228585) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053456)

At the end of the day, the operating system's purpose is really to give me access to my programs. On Windows, that means a lot, but I'm fairly happy with the way XP does it. The people who should care about major OS changes ought to be the developers; a new OS changes the rules of the game they play. In general, I don't want to shell out $200 for another OS, as long as the one I have is doing its job.

I've talked to a couple of my friends, and they are not very impressed by what they see in Vista in terms of new tools for the developers. Major changes, yes, but few of them practically interesting, in the sense that they either serve such a small subset of programs that they won't be used by the average developer or there already exists a perfectly reasonable way to do the job in Windows XP. Just as I don't want to buy a new interface if my current one is acceptable, they don't want to have to re-invent wheels just because all the 'fooX' functions are now 'barX' functions.

GNU/Linux is a little different; since the operating system is available cost-free, there's no disincentive to immediately adopting upgrades (except for instability, which is probably the biggest issue with new developments and is also shared by the must-be-purchased OS's). But with Windows, they need to really convince me that there's some truly profound new way of talking to my applications that I just gotta try.

I feel like we've reached a design plateau with both Windows XP and MacOSX these days. They both do what they do extremely well, and most of the other needs can be satisfied by the applications themselves without changing the OS. Until I'm given a very good reason to pay money to learn a new way of talking to my programs, I'll hold off, thanks.

XP doesn't suck as much as previous versions (2, Insightful)

GoatMonkey2112 (875417) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053462)

Since Windows XP doesn't suck as much as the previous versions of Windows that users were dying to get rid of there will not be that much excitement about it.

Who is John Dvorak and why should anyone care? (1)

xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053494)

Help me out please; I've only been in the software industry 14 years. Who is John Dvorak and why should anyone care what he says?

Re:Who is John Dvorak and why should anyone care? (2, Informative)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053912)

He's an asshat who used to make up wild predictions for Byte magazine in order to help sell copies. Now he makes up wild predictions for lots of people in order to help get ad impressions. I really like the title of this column, though: "JOHN DVORAK'S SECOND OPINION" I wonder what his first opinion was?

Ill give you a reason for upgrading... (1, Insightful)

Splab (574204) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053496)

Crysis. Have you seen the eyecandy in that game?

(Crysis is based on directx 10, and last I heard there wasn't going to be any upgrades to XP - granted if I can get directx 10 Ill stay with XP)

Re:Ill give you a reason for upgrading... (1)

RealSurreal (620564) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053768)

Isn't that what happens to your liver when you drink all day every day?

Re:Ill give you a reason for upgrading... (2, Informative)

HAKdragon (193605) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053836)

Crysis also has a DirectX 9 rendering path.

Every OS release cannot be a revolution (2, Insightful)

traindirector (1001483) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053538)

Dvorak's take on public interest in the Vista release seems about right, but I don't understand why he thinks this is a problem. Does he look forward to OS releases because he enjoys the buzz, talk, and excitement? He seems to be of the opinion that every major OS launch needs the marketing and fanfare of Windows 95.

There have been some major Windows revolutions - new versions that significantly added value since previous versions. Windows 95 was one. Windows 2000 was another, although the excitement of that was split between Windows 2000 and XP - XP wouldn't have been big at all if 2000 had been meant for home users. Windows 98 was not exciting. Windows ME was not exciting.

Perhaps the Vista launch would have been a big deal if the team had accomplished more of their original goals. But as it stands, even though a good deal of it was rewritten, Vista is not that much of a jump from XP. I guess Dvorak is sad that there's no revolution and fanfare. Boo hoo. Every release can't be a major step forward and a huge party.

Use linux! (1, Insightful)

tickle (1033964) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053550)

Why are you guys still using Microsoft stuff? It is out-of-date. Linux is the best way to go! I know my wife still use XP though :(

Hasty Web Site (1)

imgumbydamnit (730663) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053570)

Um, this would be a nit if Microsoft were not a 900 Gorilla with a brand new t#&d to throw, but if you go to their Vista launch site (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/experiences /default.mspx), select "Get Ready" from the nav menu, then select "Windows Vista Editions", you get a broken link. This does not bode well. ;-)

t#&d? You can swear here, you stupid fucking (1)

MondoMor (262881) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053782)

And stop using "Um" to start your sentences, for fuck's sake. You read like a braindead teenager.

Re:Hasty Web Site (1)

Gramie2 (411713) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053872)

What is this 127.0.0.0 place in your sig? I'm not familiar with it.

Reaslly ? (0, Flamebait)

gx5000 (863863) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053572)

"While there is no way that Vista will be a flop,
since all new computers will come with Vista pre-installed"

Right, I've never bought a New PC and wiped it....never..
EVEN if it came with XP Home and I had three Full XP Pro licenses, I would
STILL use the crappy install that came with the PC as installed by the OEM...
Riiiiiiiiiight !

SO I guess what you are saying is that just because it will be shipped out
with XXX number of PC's, they will be counting those as successes ??!!
Riiiiiiiiiight !

Re:Reaslly ? (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053966)

This is a stupid argument because you are statistically insignificant. The vast majority of home PCs will be run from the stock install and no significant settings will ever be changed. If something happens to the system it will be reloaded from the OEM install CD, assuming it even came with one; otherwise it's going to the PC shop to be reloaded from their media.

Waiting for Vista SP3 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053576)

By then the bugs should be resolved.

Translation (3, Interesting)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053622)

While there is no way that Vista will be a flop, since all new computers will come with Vista pre-installed, there seems to be no excitement level at all. And there does not seem to be any compelling reason for people to upgrade to Vista.

Looks like MS will have to rely on their monopoly alone to sell Vista. Their marketing can't help them this time.

In fact, the observers I chat with who follow corporate licensing do not see any large installations of Windows-based computers upgrading anytime soon. The word I keep hearing is "stagnation."

Corporations don't see any benefit to upgrade either. They've been burned by SA and security issues. They've gotten their Windows environments stable and they are not going to mess with them.

Industry manufacturers are not too thrilled either. One CEO who supplies a critical component for all computers says he sees a normal fourth quarter then nothing special in the first quarter for the segment. Dullsville.

There's not much for them to sell to the consumers either. "Look a new Start menu!" isn't getting much interest.

This is further complicated by a confusing array of Vista offerings. There is Vista Home Basic, Vista Starter, Home Premium, Business, Enterprise, and Ultimate.

Simplicity sells better to the average joe. That's why the iPod has the click-wheel. That's why auto makers have only one model in each category.

One of the interesting things I'm seeing is the relative ignorance of the computer-using public in general about the system requirements for Vista.

The public doesn't know (and MS probably does want them to know) that to really see the benefits of Vista, they can't use the basic $500 computer. They need the $2000+ model.

I for one... (4, Interesting)

ObiWanStevobi (1030352) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053658)

know our company will not be upgrading soon.

First of all, we wait for at least a year of patching before trusting a MS product. Second, Vista is a huge resource hog. We see no reason to waste that much RAM, CPU cycles for prettier windows that don't do more. Third, price. The costs to upgrade company wide a effing astronomical. For what, a bug-filled (I'll call it a safe assumption) resource hog?

This is also coming from someone who is generally likes Windows XP. XP has become a pretty stable OS that is familiar and works well. So far Vista has offered nothing that makes us want to even know more about it. Heck, you could figure out how to display the desktop in 5D or shut it down 42 different ways for all I care, I want my RAM back!

So What Dvorak Is Saying Is... (1)

Deinhard (644412) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053660)

...nothing to see here. Please move along.

Check out Microsoft's wrongdoing! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053690)

Right here, pardner! http://malfy.org/ [malfy.org]

Visa = ME (2, Interesting)

DeadboltX (751907) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053752)

Vista, to the average consumer, is just a visual upgrade from XP and with large performance hits to boot.

This is just like Windows ME was comparatively to Windows 98; a few extra features with nothing noteworthy, and performance hits.

If history repeats itself then a new server edition of windows will come out in about 2 years and then 2 years following that we will have another version of Windows whose features and stability will be welcome by all (except the obligatory anti-windows folk)

Upgrade-worthy features are aimed at end users (2, Interesting)

Niten (201835) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053766)

Most of the new features in Windows Vista that (I would argue) make it worth upgrading to, are not aimed at enterprise users, but at the average home PC user. Although most of the really interesting new stuff in the user interface was ripped straight out of OS X 10.4, these changes alone do mark a major improvement over XP. Quartz's ability to offload to the GPU much of the processing needed for window management was a major factor in my switch to the Mac a few years ago, and it's nice that Windows users will finally have something similar (albeit apparently more resource-hungry) on their machines.

While the new security features of Vista (especially the 64-bit version) are a good thing all-around, they're more of a factor for home users of the operating system than they are for large companies with corresponding IT departments to carefully secure and administer their computers. Microsoft's built-in malware scanner and improved firewall are a big step forward for Mr. PC Owner, but any decent enterprise deployment of Windows should already be behind a firewall and an anti-virus system. And in fact, insofar as most corporate Vista deployments will require a licensing server to keep Microsoft placated (bringing with it the looming possibility of a WGA malfunction), Vista is in some ways a step backward for enterprise users.

I think the general public reception of Vista will be positive - partially due to the "Oh, it's so shiny!" factor, and partially due to some real improvements under the hood - but I agree that enterprise adoption of the operating system will probably start slow.

John is at it again? Well, so is Slashdot.... (4, Interesting)

King_TJ (85913) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053776)

But considering they've yet again linked to useless Dvorak drivel, I guess I'll comment on the topic.

John is treading in pretty "safe" territory with these comments. Vista really isn't exciting very many people. But at this point in the game, does it make any difference? Microsoft could release practically anything as a new OS update, and within 2-3 years, the majority of computer users will be running it - even if absolutely *none* of them voluntarily purchased it as an upgrade. As long as it comes preloaded on the vast majority of new computers purchased (and it does), they're keeping users on their migration path.

I just got out of a technical meeting at my workplace this morning, and one of our discussions topics was the I.T. budget for 2007. It was universally agreed (with very little debate) that there's nothing compelling about spending money to upgrade our computer hardware (all Pentium 4 class systems with between 512MB and 1GB of RAM). We also agreed that it would be wasteful to spend money upgrading to Vista in 2007, since we're currently on XP Pro and it does everything we need. In the case of Office 2007, the only reason we'd upgrade to it is in response to receiving too many documents from our customers that were created in Office '07. Until that happens, it's a total waste of money for us to move to it.

I can't see how many businesses out there would conclude otherwise? With the migration from Windows 2000 to XP, there were a few "drivers" that compelled people. One big one was better, more user-friendly wireless networking support. That, alone, made my laptop upgrade from 2000 to XP a big improvement. (You still can't even use WPA type wireless encryption in Win2K without 3rd. party software add-ons.)

But with Vista, you've got new toolbars and eye-candy (some of which costs extra in terms of higher-end gaphics hardware to make use of it), and apparently a more complicated and restrictive EULA to boot. The things that would have cost-justified the product, at least in the eyes of corporate customers, were largely canned (such as the initially promised "revolutionary new file system"), and instead, we get things like more restrictive DRM for digital music. This makes it an upgrade you're forced to accept, rather than one you *want*.

I have to agree (1)

Tarlus (1000874) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053784)

As a sysadmin for a department with roughly 100 WinXP workstations, I would have to agree that Vista just isn't that exciting.
  1. It would cost a lot of money to get a license that size.
  2. Each of those machines would have to be upgraded.
  3. Things will undoubtedly break, need to be reinstalled, etc.
  4. People would need to re-learn a lot of it.
  5. As a new OS, there's no telling what could suddenly go wrong and result in major losses of data.
  6. Vista offers nothing beyond XP that people here currently need.

I don't say all of this because I'm a lazy person (although that would be a ton of work). I say this because it would be inefficent, and an unnecessary waste of a lot of time and money for something that nobody really needs. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Until there is software that explicitly requires Vista, which I don't foresee any time in the next 5-10 years, I will continue to use XP in this department. It's tried, it's true, and it works. (Works for the average users... I stick to Kubuntu myself!) ;)

BJ's. Lots of BJ's (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053848)

How does Dvorak talk when Bill Gates' dick is in his mouth?

Vista IS making a difference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053864)

I have just bought a new machine and will be buying a couple others in the next month or so - why? Exactly because they *wont* have Vista on them. The sys reqs. for Vista are just daft - if it requires that much (this is without the aero front) then all it is doing is taking resources away from apps. - so for the same dollar I will be a *less* powerful PC in a couple of months time when Vista comes preinstalled on every machine.

That rationale is ignoring the other big time issues on the horizon - the first year of any OS is going to see bugs, incompatibility (some of which will just never be fixed - I have comp. games that just don't work with XP, end of story) and security flaws. The OS is hyped for the extensive beta program and the "impentirable" security layout - but it is crying wolf - "it will be different *this* time" has been said by MS for the last 5 OS's they have released - I see no difference this time (especially when you realise that a shutdown menu containing a couple hundred lines of code suffered from the strains of a bureaucracy almost beyond satire - yeah that is a recipe for a sucsessful and secure product right there).

Vista in the SMB market. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17053888)

I work with Vista (and BSD and OS X) and am dreading the day.

The product seems fine. I don't mind that. It's the overly sensitive 'security' features that bother me.

To connect to a wireless network I have to find it. I click either Manage Networks or Connect to Network. Both seem to do the same thing. After typing in the new WEP I am asked if this is a public, home or office connection. Home and Office seem to do the same thing. Their descriptions are the same.

Having been in the SMB market for the past 7 years I find that people are less knowledgeable. I won't say stupid because they run businesses that leave me wondering how they are profitable (all honest folk too. I just don't understand accounting).

I can only imagine that, if I stay in the market, we'll get 30x the calls re: Windows Security.

It SHOULD be seamless. It is not. This saddens me as Vista has proven pretty, updated and except for one NIC driver, stable. I don't know much about programming but UI is what makes or breaks most introductions. I like that I can hit WINDOW KEY, type in MSTSC and bam, control a computer. That's cool. What's NOT cool is being told I need administrative rights to COPY a file from an external HD to a folder. Why? Copy isn't destructive. It wasn't overwriting anything.

This, like the ZUNE, may be an initial nightmare. After the inital testing phase (public release), they'll release SP1 and 'fix' all the crap that people hate, doesn't work and is misunderstood. I hope so.

As I see it now, Vista isn't ready for Christmas. And that's a GOOD thing. Let's say someone buys a $2300 laptop with all the fancies. Sweet. They get Vista and hate it. They return it and buy a Mac. The home user will be much happier because the learning curve will be the same, but without the headaches.

Sorry for being an AC.

Vendor Lock In, why? (1)

RichMan (8097) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053916)

Why is it that manufacturing can move heaven and earth to avoid vendor lock in yet process/plant/assets is quite happy to be lead around by the nards year in year out.

I have heard of manufacturing
1) requireing a single source vendor to license IP to a second company. Then purchases were made from both suppliers.
2) going with a less desirable but second sourcable alternative

hmmm (1)

TradingSystem (1033974) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053946)

Veni, Vedi, Vista? I don't think so!

Education sector definately not considering it... (3, Interesting)

Omicron32 (646469) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053950)

I work in a school, and as such we have an MS Schools License Agreement, which entitles us to all the latest Microsoft software for a reletively cheap price (I think £30ish a workstation).

We're expecting delivery of our Office 2007 and Vista discs in either the December or January licensing packs. While we may test them around the office, a network-wide deployment (about 350 machines total) of Vista won't even be considered till after SP1 is released. Not to mention all the poorly-written educational software that will need compatability testing on the new OS. Due to the training requirements of Office 2007 I probably can't see that being rolled out till 2008 at the earliest either - especially with the admin staff, since a lot of their applications tie directly into Office and they use it all day, ever day. The training requirements for that alone would cause so many headaches for us to support.

Many people I know who work at other schools in our area aren't even considering an upgrade yet or in the near future. XP works just fine for now and the forseeable future. My school is lucky in that we have a large IT budget and have mostly up-to-date PCs (enough for what they do on them anyway), other schools in my area are still running 333MHz/128MB RAM machines - not exactly the powerhouse needed to run Vista at a reasonable level.

Why is it that every time Dvorak writes some... (1)

thomasdn (800430) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053962)

Why is it that every time Dvorak writes something someone at Slashdot thinks we need to know about it? There are a lot of idiots out there. Dvorak is one of them. The only reason to why his articles are submitted to Slashdot all the time is, as I see it, because he has the same name as a keyboard layout. But please. Though this maybe is kinda cool but not an excuse to link to his articles all the time. Please stop submitting Dvorak-crap.

wow - it looks even more retarded than XP (1)

Ralph Spoilsport (673134) | more than 7 years ago | (#17053982)

Jeepers - that website for Vista really is awful. Yuk! And it looks like yet another triumph for Microsoft's chronic case of cranio-rectal inversion.

However, I guess we'll all just have to "get used to it". It's like getting Herpes. It's ugly, uncomfortable, and won't go away. I hope it comes with a "classic" option so I can tone down the "we hired our OS designers from AOL" style and get it back to a standard, innocuous, and useful Win95-esque style.

RS

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?