Beta

Slashdot: News for Nerds

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

cancel ×

303 comments

Simple Solution (5, Funny)

Duds (100634) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173534)

Remind people Microsoft support HD-DVD!

Re:Simple Solution (4, Insightful)

UbuntuDupe (970646) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173546)

Or that you shouldn't fall in love with any new movie format until it is to DVD what DVD was to VHS.

Seriously, I'm going to upgrade my collection every time you add a zero onto the storage capacity?

Re:Simple Solution (5, Insightful)

Threni (635302) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173676)

> Seriously, I'm going to upgrade my collection every time you add a zero onto the storage capacity?

Exactly. I don't give a shit about high def - I can afford but can't justify the cost of the tv/player/disks. DVDs are good enough for me, and I imagine it'll take longer for the price of this new stuff to come down in price because it'll be like the video equivalent of SACD disks - it solves a problem that simply doesn't exist for most people.

Re:Simple Solution (3, Insightful)

Ucklak (755284) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174162)

I think right now there is no need for any of the Hi-Def formats.

Personally, I think both formats will fail for mainstream acceptance and the HVD format will most likely be the winner by the time it matures in about 6 years. By the time it's ready, the market will probably have a need for terabyte storage media when it happens.
Hi Def DVD will need to come up to the 1080p60 standard and HVD can definitely handle the storage needs.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will be like the Laserdisc; niche market.

Re:Simple Solution (4, Insightful)

plover (150551) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174224)

I think the problem companies like Sony and Microsoft have is that they recognize their profits come from churn. Come out with X-Box 360 and the loyal X-Box owners will buy it. Come out with PS2 and loyal PS1 owners will buy it.

But that only works for a limited set of people with enough money, and that's not even half of America any more. It is a great theory for products like games and laptops, because they're already owned by the rich half who can afford to play the churn game. But it doesn't work as well on mass market items such as TVs and DVD players. Look at how long it's taken to replace VCRs with DVD players. Most people consider a TV a "big-ticket" item, and expect them to last 20 years or more. And nobody with a non-HD TV has any reason to consider an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player.

Churn is great for cell phones, where they can continually "upgrade" them by adding more and more crappy features, and give them away (with expensive contracts.) But churn is not going to sell HDTV sets to everyone across the nation, and HDTV is a prerequisite to selling HD players.

Re:Simple Solution (4, Insightful)

Xolom (989077) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173884)

Yes - remember the original reason why DVD was pushed so hard - unlike VHS, it was supposedly "uncopyable." But we all know how that's turned out. Now they're pushing another propietary, "uncopyable" format. Is it actually about better quality? I think not.

Re:Simple Solution (4, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174066)

DVD had a big advantage over VHS that looked like a disadvantage at the time; DVD players can't play VHS tapes. Now, however, BluRay and HD-DVD players can play DVDs.

When DVDs came out, you had the choice of buying DVDs and knowing that they would keep working, or buying VHS and knowing that it would become increasingly difficult to find hardware that would play them. Now, you have the choice of buying DVDs, which will keep working with your next player, or buying an HD disk that will also work, and will probably look better, but costs more. Until HD disks are close to the price of DVDs, there isn't much point in buying them.

Re:Simple Solution (1)

itlurksbeneath (952654) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174356)

Dead on the money. I remember when DVD's were all the rage. Players cost 500 bucks and when you went to the movie rental store, they had maybe a shelf or two of DVD's you could rent - the world still revolved around VHS. Now when you go into a rental place, it's filled with DVD's and hardly a VHS tape to be found.

I think the sweet spot for me was when they would release new movies to DVD and VHS simultaneously in the video stores. My first player cost about 350 bucks (but it was a 5 disk changer, too).

Give it time. Prices will drop. A 900 dollar player today in a year will be half that, or less.

Personally, I'm crossing my fingers for Blu-Ray. I don't particularly care one way or the other for Sony, but I definitely don't like Microsoft and their tactics. I mean, really, Microsoft went with HD-DVD why? Because Blu-Ray supported Java? Blu-Ray has the potential to be a friendlier (DRM aside) medium both for video and as a PC drive from what I read. Either Microsoft has it's head up its rear (again) or sombody's in bed with the big media conglomerates up to their eyeballs.

Re:Simple Solution (3, Interesting)

medlefsen (995255) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174458)

I honestly don't think MS cares how well HD-DVD does. They have no stake in this format war at all. What they do have a stake in is the console war where Sony is pushing blu-ray big time. If MS supports HD-DVD, even if it loses eventually the damage to blu-ray and Sony from the format war alone is worth it to MS. It's quite clever if you ask me.

Re:Simple Solution (1)

itlurksbeneath (952654) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174492)

Kind of a crappy first shot in the format war when the drive that comes with the XB360 is a regular DVD drive, don't you think?

Re:Simple Solution (3, Insightful)

Duds (100634) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174532)

Not really because that lops a 1/3rd off the cost of the 360.

And once you've GOT a 360 when you do eventually decide to go next-gen for movies that makes it £129 for HD-DVD (new drive for box you have) vs the full £425 for a PS3 for blu-ray.

And if blu-ray does win there's zero stopping them just bolting a blu-ray drive onto the 360 the same way they have with HD-DVD.

Re:Simple Solution (1)

CPMO (1013807) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173596)

It is Certainly lame that they couldn't agree on a single Proprietary format. But Microsoft won't be the deciding factor here: it will be the Ordinary domestic players that will decide who wins the battle. In fact I suspect both formats will exist in parallel until some completely new technology supercedes them.

Re:Simple Solution (2, Interesting)

Duds (100634) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173598)

Well the one thing that's decided me is the lack of region encoding on HD-DVD. It's a huge advantage for the format and I can't believe it's not being talked about more.

Because it's not true, maybe? (5, Informative)

KingSkippus (799657) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173766)

I'm going out on a limb here, but maybe because it's not true [reghardware.co.uk] ?

Some of the early players didn't recognize or support region coding. That doesn't mean that the format is incapable of it. And trust me on this, it is unfortunately going to be with us for a long time to come.

Re:Because it's not true, maybe? (1)

Duds (100634) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174502)

The 360 one doesn't recognise region coding and disks will always work on region free players.

To all intents and purposes that makes it region free regardless of any stable door closing.

Re:Simple Solution (4, Insightful)

legoburner (702695) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173630)

I agree with the parent post. The percentage of people who benefit from blu-ray or HD-DVD (users of HD TVs with decent home cinema setups and expendable money to buy everything they already bought on DVD) is considerably less than the percentage of people who benefitted from the upgrade to DVD from VHS (anyone who likes movies, hates rewinding and has some expendable money for entertainment). I would normally make some comment such as 'at least it can be used for backups or data' but it really is beaten by hard drives and simply installing from multiple DVDs right now. There is simply no killer app like there was for DVD.

Re:Simple Solution (1)

SunTzuWarmaster (930093) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173976)

I bought a DVD/VHS combo player after they had been out for a year and a half for 50 dollars on sale, and it had no issues with my TV. Why haven't I converted to HD-DVD yet? I need a new TV to play the format, and a new player to play it, and still have to have my old one. Total - over $1000, easy. Seriously, when it drops to $100, I'll start considering it.

Re:Simple Solution (1)

gEvil (beta) (945888) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174346)

...and expendable money to buy everything they already bought on DVD...

I'm curious as to the rationale for this argument because I see it mentioned everytime an article on HD is posted. You do realize that nobody is forced to rebuy stuff they already have, right? Sure, some people will, but it's not like our existing DVDs are suddenly obsolete because we upgraded to HD-DVD/BluRay. Going forward, yes, I will buy some new things on HD-DVD. I may even rebuy a movie or two that I already have. All the while, I'll still continue to purchase regular DVDs, depending on the movie and price. All of this is purely my choice and is in no way forced on me. So give up with the "but you have to buy everything again" argument, because it is pathetically weak.

Re:Simple Solution (1)

cp.tar (871488) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173646)

To me it seems like they've rushed both of these new "standards"...

I do wonder, though, how many more times will Sony have to lose because of their stubbornness before they realize it might be more beneficial playing nice with others... ah, well...

Completely offtopic: why can't I reply directly to the article anymore? What happened to the RSS feeds from Google? I'm away for a few days and all hell breaks loose...

Re:Simple Solution (5, Informative)

The PS3 Will Fail (998952) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173904)

"I do wonder, though, how many more times will Sony have to lose because of their stubbornness before they realize it might be more beneficial playing nice with others... ah, well..."
I dislike Sony as a company but they are certainly not the only ones pushing Blu-Ray; the Blu-Ray Disc Association board also includes Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Pioneer, Koninklijke Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp and Apple. I think it's rather deceitful to act as though Sony is the only company that has a hand in Blu-Ray (or you're simply not aware of this fact, in which case I hope I have enlightened you).

Re:Simple Solution (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17174108)

Remind people that Microsoft (Gates) also supports ridding of TB around the world...and then boycott against that too!

Re:Simple Solution (0, Troll)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174336)

All a PR stunt and tax scam.
An attempt to appear generous, and buy some goodwill, while actually profiting in the background through tax breaks, free advertising and increased market share.
Not saying that their actions don't have positive side effects, but the primary reason they're doing it is to benefit their own business and you shouldn't lose sight of that.

Re:Simple Solution (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17174522)

Remind people that Microsoft (Gates) also supports ridding of TB around the world

Damn I thought he'd gotten over the whole 640K thing but now he wants to ban terabytes? He's gone too far this time.

Not helpful solution - no microsoft! (1)

drewzhrodague (606182) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174416)

Yay, Microsoft supports HD-DVD. How does this help me at home with everything running GNU/Linux?

On a related note, I don't care about HD-DVD, SACD, or even Blu-Ray. They can all take their overly priced DRM-infected machines, and just sit on 'em. Why do I need Blu-Ray? I can't think of a single reason. In fact, after my experiences with the Playstation2 (We bought it as a DVD player -- it does not play most DVDs), I am very unlikely to buy any Sony product ever again. Hay, and where the hell are all the space games?

Blu ray DVD technology search on Omgili (5, Funny)

spale (1009629) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173606)

Yep, just made a search on Omgili about Blu ray DVD technology - and the first result was "Screw Blu-Ray"
Many other interesting discussions as well:
http://www.omgili.com/omgili.search?q=Blu+ray+DVD+ technology [omgili.com]

Marketing (2)

Slimnaper (971797) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173622)

I don't think many will argue that Betamax was better technology than VHS. For mass consumer products, best marketing strategy, not best technology wins, simple as that. Just ask M$.

Re:Marketing (-1, Offtopic)

CPMO (1013807) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174014)

Hi Slimnaper

I notice youre comments have been getting some unfair modding-down recently. Have you considered joining the CPMO movement? (http://slashdot.org/~CPMO/journal/). We're trying to put a stop to unreasonable modding-down. Check it out.

Signed, CPMO

BROD ? (5, Funny)

Rastignac (1014569) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173624)

BluRay is dead. We hate it. So Sony's marketing division must do something.
My idea: Sony must change the technology's name to something funny like "BROD: Blu-Ray Of Death" ;)

Re:BROD ? (-1, Offtopic)

CPMO (1013807) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173682)

Hi Rastignac

I notice your comments have been getting unfair bad moderations for some time now. Why not help us even the odds by joining the CPMO? See http://slashdot.org/~CPMO/journal/ [slashdot.org]

Signed, CPMO

Way too much blueray bashing (4, Insightful)

Raisey-raison (850922) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173636)

HDVD is also a competing format and that family of companies is just as intransigent as the Blueray in refusing to compromise in the creation of a single format. So intransigence is on both sides here. Secondly I don't understand why people oppose this format because of prior format problems. Judge this one on its merits. Thirdly I try to look at what are the technological advantages of one format over another. Of course cost and availability of DVDs matter a lot too. But I never heard that mentioned as a negative yet for blue ray. Its not like there are such a plethora of movies on one format and not in the other yet. As far as betamax goes, it was the better technology. We would have been better off had it won. Bottom line: This one is way to early to call.

Re:Way too much blueray bashing (4, Interesting)

Afecks (899057) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173776)

Judge this one on its merits.

Sounds wise, doesn't it? Until you realize it will cost you a small fortune to get a chance to judge Blu-ray. So maybe it might also be wise to remember past performance too. Minidisc, rootkits and will Blu-ray be the third strike?

Want to know why I want Blu-ray to win? It's easier to say...

Re:Way too much blueray bashing (1)

h2g2bob (948006) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174140)

Want to know why I want Blu-ray to win? It's easier to say...

There are only 17,500 three letter acronyms -- looks like we've run out already.

and not enough HD-DVD bashing (1)

KonoWatakushi (910213) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174418)

Parent is spot on with regard to judging Blu-ray based on its technical merits. At least it has *one* merit, and that is capacity; HD-DVD has none. As has been evidenced by the cost of dual-layered (writable) DVDs, per-layer capacity should not be dismissed.

HD-DVD is just as crippled by DRM, and for video, I sincerely hope that they both fail. I will be patiently waiting for the HVD [wikipedia.org] . In the mean time, HD-DVD is far too small of an improvement for the cost (in terms of storage) to even bother.

Re:Way too much blueray bashing (1)

The-Bus (138060) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174462)

Blu-Ray has two, and only two advantages over HD DVD:
  • Broader studio support. Blu-Ray has three major and one minor supporter HD-DVD lacks: Buena Vista (Disney), Fox (and MGM), Columbia Pictures (Sony), and Lions Gate. It has been heavily rumored that LG and BV might add HD DVD in the next year, but the bottom line is this: companies go where the money is. Right now, HD DVD far outsells Blu-Ray. The studios are not going to leave money on the table for long.
  • More storage. While 50GB > 30GB in the data world, this may not have much impact on movies. There's already been one movie (Mission:Impossible III) that's been released on two discs on both formats. Consumers have learned that: more discs = more value. In the home video world, it's not that much of an advantage.

And that's it. In every other department (price, quality of releases, quantity of releases, sales) HD DVD handily beats Blu-Ray.

Sony's dumb decision, with historical precedent! (4, Interesting)

KingSkippus (799657) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173638)

How many ways are there to say it? Sony is stupid.

You would think it would learn from its mistakes. It tried to push out its proprietary format with Betamax, and it failed miserably. (I know, I know, "superior format" and all that, but it doesn't change the fact that VHS won the battle of the formats in consumers' living rooms.) It tried to push out its proprietary format with the MiniDisc, and it failed miserably. It tried to push out its proprietary format with UMD, and it failed miserably. Now, it is trying to push out its proprietary format with Blu-ray.

How many miserable failures is it going to take for Sony to realize something that, at least to me, is pretty freakin' obvious and stupidly simple: people do not want to get locked into proprietary formats controlled by one company. The thing that's so maddening is that when Sony does embrace non-proprietary formats, they have wild success. Their Walkman products sold like there was no tomorrow. Their CD and DVD consumer electronics have always been well-respected.

It's more than a little ironic, I think, that while Sony is trying desperately to convince people that they should be buying a PS3 for the Blu-ray drive, in fact, people are avoiding the PS3 specifically because of the Blu-ray drive! I mean, I don't know many people who actively don't want a Blu-ray drive, but it is definitely, at least indirectly, responsible for their woes:

  • The Blu-ray drive is heinously expensive. People don't want to pay over $500 for a gaming console, even if they can also watch a few movies on it. If they had sold it without the Blu-ray drive, it would be much more competitive with the Xbox 360 and the Wii.
  • The Blu-ray drive is hard to manufacture, which is causing Sony's dismal supply. If they had sold it without the Blu-ray drive, they could have made a lot more of them, and average little Timmys all over the world could have one under their Christmas tree instead of only the little Johnnys who happen to have parents that are very, very rich.
  • There wouldn't be a so-called "format war" which has turned into, basically, Sony vs. the rest of the world. Getting people to switch from standard DVDs to high-definition DVDs is already going to be a daunting task, since there's not that much addition of quality and people are generally happy with DVDs. Still, I think it could have been pulled off if all manufacturers, publishers, and marketing companies were on board with a common format. As it is, though, people aren't going to invest in a new library of movies as long as there's any question over whether they'll have to throw it away. No one wants to end up being the only person on their block with a Betamax player. And their squabbling in this delicate time when they should be pushing a new common format will allow alternate media delivery mechanism creep up and make both formats obsolete. (Online delivery of HD content [xbox.com] , anyone?)

I could go on listing items, but you get my point. Everyone that said and signed on with, "I have an idea, let's use the PS3 as a launching platform for Blu-ray!" should be fired, because they just don't get it. People will buy a game console that happens to also play movies, but they're not going to be force-fed a whole new movie format just to own it. And I may end up eating crow for saying it if history proves me wrong, but I think that when all is said and done, people are really going to resent Sony imposing such a high premium on their gaming for something that has nothing to do with gaming. I really think that five or ten years from now, people are going to look at Sony's die-hard pushing of Blu-ray at the expense of its consoles as the thing that killed its dominance in the gaming console market.

It's too bad, too. Nintendo, while clever, just isn't set up to own the hardcore gamer market. And while I'm not big fan of Sony, I'm certainly not a big fan of Microsoft, either. Still, it looks like Sony is bound and determined to hand Microsoft the console victory crown on a silver platter with this foolishness.

Re:Sony's dumb decision, with historical precedent (1)

cp.tar (871488) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173654)

people do not want to get locked into proprietary formats controlled by one company
I only have one Word to say to that.

Re:Sony's dumb decision, with historical precedent (2, Insightful)

KingSkippus (799657) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173710)

I only have one Word to say to that.

The Word proprietary format is a lot different.

For one thing, people didn't have a choice between the Word proprietary format and another format that was agreed upon by the rest of the word processing industry. People only had a choice between the proprietary Word format and the proprietary WordPerfect format. Picking one over the other didn't really make much difference.

Second of all, early versions of Word were rather handily compatible with opening WordPerfect documents, so if one chose the proprietary Word format, they weren't locking themselves out of other formats as well.

Third of all, it's not like there aren't other formats out there that people use. For document publication, I think that HTML and Adobe's PDF formats are way more popular. People chose the Word proprietary format mostly for using their own proprietary software.

Fourth of all, after all these years, we're finally seeing an effort to create a new non-proprietary format for documents to be saved and loaded in. It's just going to take a little while for it to catch on and get popular since other formats have had a couple of decades of head start.

Re:Sony's dumb decision, with historical precedent (4, Interesting)

timjdot (638909) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174114)

Open Document format is supported by OpenOffice.org's Writer very well. They moved to it from their native format as the default a while back. KOffice and others support it too. Softie stil refuses to do so! Even a plugin for it made by someone else was made to not work from what I remember. Microsoft and Sony have a dream to lock out competition through proprietary formats. To me, learning the Open Source way follows steps like:
0) Belief in Communism (as practiced), MNC's, and Wealthy Over-lords. Here is Sony. Clearly Sony's rootkit showed they believe they operate above the law. Similar for monopolistic practices elsewhere.
1) Blind belief Sony and Microsoft are the leading creators of technology (the norm). For examples simply look at the recent discussion on Microsoft research team where many praised them despite Google's clear leadership and Microsoft's clear copy-ovation and buyout-ovation rather than innovation.
2) Thinking softie and sphoney are needed to keep the world running. This is evident in wanting to dual boot, running a doze Lose32 API layer SW, or emulate.
3) Realise the overlords are not the innovators. Once you realize this then you turn off your Windows box for good. No good can come of worshiping at the feet of the ultra-wealthy. Their interests are not those of yourself or any other commoner.

Sony is no different than the Plantation Owners of the Old South. Many slaves escaped to freedom. Softie and Sony slaves have a underground railroad to freedom as well. The greed of the English Kings allowed many indentured servants from the old world to become bona fide citizens by owning land because the King of England said serfs could become tree farmers after years of indntured servantdom as he wanted more longleaf yellow pine as needed to build his Navy. Once the serfs became citizens (voting and legal protection) then they never were to return to serfdom and, thus, won the freedom we all apprecate in the Revolutionary War. Likewise, Open Source pushed technology from the grips of the ovelords. Proprietary formats are one simple way the overlords hope to stop innovation. I personally believe they will fail. We can only hope our country will lead the innovation rather than see it happen elsewhere. The ability to look up land ownership in a ruling class stifled Europe for millenia and the ability to lock up innovation has stifled technology for a decade.

The strong legal system in the USA is a relic. The lack of international respect for copyright and patent law leave the USA at an unsurmoutable disadvantage on the world market. Either the Chinese come clean and pay up or the USA will have to eliminate such practices. Sony and others cannot both hope to run their business on illegal grounds (china et al) yet use legal grounds as foundations for their business in law abiding areas (usa etc).

Open Source is one innovation which removes the problem. Open Source is a return to before the Legalism Era when innovation was made for the sake of innovation rather than the sake of making competition impossible. The patent system of the USA is designed to disallow innovation in the USA; thus the antithesis of what it is supposed to be. Sony is so far from what is happening in the ground swell of Open Source that one can easily foresee Sony being cut down to size within a decade. Microsoft as well. The monkey business with Novell should be a nail in the coffin for the belief they had any redeeming contribution to make to innovation and technology. Seriously, does it take Billions in profits to write a Word Processor or come up with a 50G burnable disk? No. Look at OpenOffice, KOffice, GO (GnomeOffice), PlataSoft, and more. I suspect any of 1000 or so engineers and physicists in this country could come up with a 100G burnable disk within a year for under $500k. Sony's activity in the market is simply a reflection that the men who run Sony believe they are a class above those who buy their products. They are paid to innovate, not stifle innovation. Like the VHS, the cheapest and most useful alternative will win. Probably that's going to be large disks and the download medium may be the Net. The era of fixed media could come to an end. For instance, I have about 3TB of disk space here at my house. Of course most of it is empty.

Just some thougts I've had. Maybe refinement. Best,
TimJowers
http://www.serviza.com/ [serviza.com] . Serviza Linux Computers. Fully Loaded with Innovation. 2007 is the Year of Open Source. Make it what YOU will.

Re:Sony's dumb decision, with historical precedent (1)

kristnjov (1012063) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173664)

INDEED! That's all.

Betamax vs. VHS (4, Interesting)

DingerX (847589) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173698)

Betamax may have been the "superior format", but not in all ways. You could record six hours on a VHS tape long before you could do anything similar with beta. A 2 hour tape meant you could get most (but not all) movies, and very few sporting events. 6-hour tape meant you could leave that sucker in there. You could also tape a daily show for a whole week and watch it on the weekend.

Those little technical differences gave VHS an edge in the home market. Plus, Sony's excluding Porn from Betamax really screwed them.

Yeah, no love for Sony on this one. Everyone wants to bring up the M$ is teh evil argument, but come on: Sony's trying use their dominant market position as leverage into another sector. That's one of the reasons why people hate M$. Hate the game, not the players.

Re:Betamax vs. VHS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17173924)

There is no such thing as a 6 hour tape, it is a 3 hour tape using low quality mode moving the tape slowly past the recorder's heads to extend recording time.

Re:Betamax vs. VHS (1)

DingerX (847589) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174330)

Yup, and producing crappy quality. But that was good enough for most people.

Re:Sony's dumb decision, with historical precedent (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17173726)

Even if the Sony-Bony Pixelation Station 3 were being given away rather than being sold at such a high price I wouldn't take it. Hell, even if they were to pay me $600 I still wouldn't take their shit. With the dangerous rootkit they developed as a result of them thinking we are all theives, I want absolutely nothing to do with Sony-Fucking-Bony. They should be fucking banned from doing business anywhere in the world.

Re:Sony's dumb decision, with historical precedent (4, Interesting)

Vreejack (68778) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173890)

Sony insisted on using a proprietary format for flash memory modules: the "Memory Stick." My Vaio has a port for them. Those memory sticks are the reason I bought a Canon SLR camera instead of anything made by Sony.

Having experienced the agony of a failed flash memory module while far from home, I would gladly pay more for a module with a better track record, but the lack of interoperability is fatal, especially for flash modules. My USB memory card reader will accept half a dozen formats, but not Sony's. I do not understand why they insist on proprietary formats when they clearly affect primary hardware sales.

Re:Sony's dumb decision, with historical precedent (0, Troll)

Woogiemonger (628172) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174086)

I could go on listing items, but you get my point. Everyone that said and signed on with, "I have an idea, let's use the PS3 as a launching platform for Blu-ray!" should be fired, because they just don't get it. People will buy a game console that happens to also play movies, but they're not going to be force-fed a whole new movie format just to own it.

To be honest, I disagree with what you say based on my own experience. I did the whole home theater setup in my house, and when deciding between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, I find the choice pretty easy. I'm not really THAT into video games, but they're nice at times and I figure I'll buy a console that also plays one of the HD formats. I see the hodge-podge XBox 360 + HD-DVD add-on available now, or I can wait for the slightly more future-proofed PS3 with Blu-Ray. I can honestly say I probably would have gone with the Nintendo Wii already if not for the PS3's Blu-Ray.

laughing out loud (1)

gumpish (682245) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174284)

the slightly more future-proofed PS3 with Blu-Ray
LOL

That is all.

Re:Sony's dumb decision, with historical precedent (1)

BladesP9 (722608) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174334)

How many miserable failures is it going to take for Sony to realize something that, at least to me, is pretty freakin' obvious and stupidly simple: people do not want to get locked into proprietary formats controlled by one company. The thing that's so maddening is that when Sony does embrace non-proprietary formats, they have wild success. Their Walkman products sold like there was no tomorrow. Their CD and DVD consumer electronics have always been well-respected.

Tell that to Apple Computer which is doing pretty well with it's proprietary format and proprietary hardware. The PS3 is too expensive. Can you even buy a BluRay DVD player stand-alone? It may or may not fail for any number of combined reasons, I don't think you can pin it on any one thing at this point.

Re:Sony's dumb decision, with historical precedent (2, Interesting)

DrXym (126579) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174494)

The Blu-ray drive is heinously expensive

As was the DVD player in its day. So what? Prices for players will fall through the floor in the next few years. Doubtless the PS3 will sink in price too over time.

The Blu-ray drive is hard to manufacture

As I'm sure the DVD player was hard to manufacture in its day. Doesn't mean that it is hard now. The component that was (and probably no longer) makes the Blu-Ray hard to manufacture is the blue laser diode. This is a component shared with HD-DVD. So Blu-Ray's teething troubles are also HD-DVD's teething troubles.

There wouldn't be a so-called "format war" which has turned into, basically, Sony vs. the rest of the world.

Except it isn't Sony vs the rest of the world. Blu-Ray has more backers than HD-DVD. Blu-Ray also has many more players in the hands of consumers thanks to the PS3. The reality is that unless MS stick an HD-DVD into their XBox 360 or the PS3 tanks it is hard to see how HD-DVD can possibly win.

People will buy a game console that happens to also play movies, but they're not going to be force-fed a whole new movie format just to own it. And I may end up eating crow for saying it if history proves me wrong, but I think that when all is said and done, people are really going to resent Sony imposing such a high premium on their gaming for something that has nothing to do with gaming.

The lower PS3 is only only $100 more that the premium XBox 360. For that $100 you get free online access, a blu-ray movie player, more content for your games, bluetooth, HDMI, web browsing, video playback (from disk), region free games, Linux support and a bunch of other bits and pieces. $100 is not much more for all that. Personally I don't think what the 60Gb version offers justifies another $100 expense unless you need wi-fi.

Now even if you think it is too expensive, consider Blu-Ray for what it offers games. The 360 & PS3 output in HD and need 4 times as many polygons, textures and other graphical content to cover the screen. Which means 4 times the disk storage. Then you have HD FMV at 10x NTSC, localization, sound effects and so on. Microsoft chose to constrain their device to DVD-9 discs. That means they get 2 times the disk storage capacity of the last gen for content that needs at least 4 times the space.

Obviously many games won't fill DVD-9 so it makes no difference but those that do will have to span multiple disks. Or they'll slash the content. Or they'll put episodic content up for download (for $$$). Already Blue Dragon needs THREE DVDs and it's likely that other games will need it too. What will it be like in 3 years on from now? Will "please insert disc 2" become a familiar sight half way through 360 games? Even if MS chose to put an HD-DVD into their XBox 360, they can't abandon DVD-9 for games because of the 8 million non-HD-DVD consoles out there.

Sony put themselves in a world of hurt by forcing Blu-Ray into the PS3, but that is because it has a massive potential payoff. Not only is it good for games, but every PS3 is a Blu-Ray player to boot. So Sony scores sales of BD movies, as well as sales of HDTVs to watch them on. The downside as you say is production issues and increased cost. Assuming the Sony can overcome the obstacles it will make a lot of money, most of which wouldn't have materialised if they had stuck with DVD.

That's because... (5, Funny)

redblue (943665) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173652)

wii hatessss it!

EVD in China (1)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173662)

If Sony doesn't get their act together and bring HD-DVD down to a reasonable price (in all respects), then they're going to run massive risk to standards like China's EVD [itwire.com.au] . Now only will they lose the licensing in the Chinese market but EVD has no copyright protection scheme--which means it's buy and burn. I think that in China, a different strategy on HD-DVD is in order although with the way Sony runs its business, I wonder if China is even a viable market at all to Sony.

Re:EVD in China (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17173696)

Oops, where I said "HD-DVD" replace that with "Blu-Ray DVD" ...

Re:EVD in China (1)

KingSkippus (799657) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173822)

EVD has no copyright protection scheme

I don't know anything about EVD, but if this is true, it means that movie studios most certainly won't be releasing EVD discs with their movies on it. In places like China where piracy is rampant, people won't care too much, but in other places like the U.S., I just don't see people going out and buying a special player (which, if EVD actually becomes popular, will probably be made illegal) just to watch illegal copies of movies and television shows.

If someone does try to sell illegal copies of movies and/or television shows here in the U.S., they'll be promptly sued and likely also arrested and thrown in jail.

Re:EVD in China (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174354)

"I don't know anything about EVD, but if this is true, it means that movie studios most certainly won't be releasing EVD discs with their movies on it."

You really think movie studios want to cut themselves out of the Chinese market?

Well, I guess you may be right, they've done stupider things in the past (like opposing VHS when it became a vast money-earner for them).

too different, too soon. (4, Insightful)

geoff lane (93738) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173688)

Most people are wondering how long their VHS tape player will last and if they can transfer all their tapes to DVD or hard disk.

Asking them to buy a DVD replacement when they've only just bought a boxed set of Friends DVDs is asking a bit too much of the marketplace.

Mod Parent Up (1)

Hawthorne01 (575586) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173882)

That's both the reason why HD-DVD/BluRay came out in the first place and why both will fail.

I'm smack dab in the middle of the target market for this, a movie freak with a good job and a penchant for the latest gadgets.

But I have no desire to replace my hundreds of DVD's just to get 1080p. My 60" (insert Darth Vader's Theme here) Sony (gasp!) tv and upconverting DVD player do a bang-up job of recreating the movie theatre experience in my home. Anything more isn't missed, I'll be hanged if Sony and the rest of the studios are going to force me to switch when I don't want to. I'll move to BitTorrent before I do that.

Re:Mod Parent Up (1)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174256)

I have several monitors that will handle HDTV resolutions, but no actual HDTV...
Is there any way to convert HDTV signals to work with a VGA, 13W3 or DVI monitor? I don't want to buy a whole new TV just to play a few videogames and watch a small percentage of movies...

Re:Mod Parent Up (1)

yabos (719499) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174470)

Any HDTV receiver will either have HDMI or Component out or both. HDMI to DVI adaptors exist for a low price. HDMI carries sound and video whereas DVI is only video. HDMI is higher bandwidth than DVI. So there's no real converting to be done you can just get an adaptor and there's gotta be some component to DVI adaptor/interface box as well.

Re:Mod Parent Up (1)

Mark Maughan (763986) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174600)

I can only speak for the Comcast cable service I have in my area.

The HDMI/DVI out of the cable box is HDCP enabled, so unless your monitor supports HDCP, then no for regular viewing.

However the cable box also has firewire out with HDCP disabled for regular viewing. You get no menu with this and you can't view PPV or onDemand media.

HDCP is a big ass raping. Instead of being able to use a $200 KVM switch to switch between various DVI sources, you have to get a $500+ piece of specialized junk to do it. HDCP doesn't prevent you from copying shit, it merely forces you to buy expensive electronics to do it.

Re:too different, too soon. (0, Flamebait)

KingSkippus (799657) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173992)

Well, here's how it was supposed to have happened.

HD-DVD becomes the new standard format for HD content. People will go out and buy HD-DVD players as either their old ones break, they grow up (i.e. graduate and get jobs, or get raises and have more disposable income), and the players come down in price. Don't worry, those fancy new HD-DVD players will still play your box set of Friends DVDs, it's all compatible, and everyone's happy.

As more and more people buy HD-DVD players, the studios start releasing more HD-DVD movies and television shows. They invest millions into advertising, and billions into getting their HD-DVD discs out there for everyone to buy. Maybe you do own the box set of Friends on DVD, but do you own the box set of Seinfeld? If you're going to buy it, and now you have the choice between HD-DVD and just plain old DVD, are you really going to just buy the plain old DVDs if you have an HD-DVD player? Nah, because the quality is better, and everyone (studios, manufacturers, and advertisers) agrees that HD-DVD is the way to go!

And so HD-DVD is propagated, and eventually, everyone is buying HD-DVD players and HD-DVD discs instead of the old DVD stuff.

But thanks to Sony, that's not what's going to happen.

No, Sony decided that it wants everyone using its proprietary format instead of the format that most of the other industry players out there agreed to, and now we have a so-called "format war." Now, people aren't going to buy HD-DVD players, because what if Blu-ray wins? Do I really want to be stuck with the modern-day equivalent of a Betamax player? People aren't going to buy Blu-ray players either for the same reason. Sure, people will have them with their PS3s, but without a clear winner in the market, studios aren't going to be investing a lot in releasing very many Blu-ray movies, and people aren't going to be buying many Blu-ray movies. And not to put too fine a point on it, these people are going to be using their PS3s primarily to play games, not watch movies.

As a result, it's likely that both formats are screwed, when one would have succeeded just fine.

Thanks, Sony.

Re:too different, too soon. (1)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174240)

Let's not forget that microsoft are doing the same with OpenDocument and OfficeXML...
Opendocument came first, was agreed upon by multiple vendors, and microsoft were invited to join the committee that defined the standard and contribute towards it... They refused, and later created their own format, which is just going to hurt both formats and the consumers.

Re:too different, too soon. (1, Informative)

xero314 (722674) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174518)

No, Sony decided that it wants everyone using its proprietary format instead of the format that most of the other industry players out there agreed to...
By everyone I assume you mean "An exceptionally small subset of the media and technology industry" that includes, and only includes, according to Official HD-DVD site [thelookand...erfect.com] :
HP, Intel, Microsoft, Paramount, Toshiba, Universal, Warner, HBO and Newline.

This is as opposed to the companies that are part of the Blu-Ray Consortium [blu-raydisc.com] :
Apple, Dell, HP, Hitachi, LG, Mitsubishi Electric, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, Sun Microsystems, TDK, Thomson, Twentieth Century Fox, Walt Disney, Warner Bros., Adobe Systems, Almedio Inc., Alticast, Aplix Corporation, ArcSoft, Inc., ATI Technologies Inc., Atmel Corporation, AudioDev AB, Broadcom Corporation, Canon Inc., CMC Magnetics Corporation, Coding Technologies GmbH, Cryptography Research Inc., CyberLink Corp., DATARIUS Technologies GmbH, DCA Inc., Deluxe Media Services Inc., Dolby Laboratories Inc., DTS, Inc., Electronic Arts Inc., Esmertec, Fuji Photo Film Co. Ltd., Fujitsu Ltd., Gibson Guitar Corp., Horizon Semiconductor, Imation Corp., InterVideo Inc., Kenwood Corporation, Lionsgate Entertainment, LITE-ON IT Corporation, LSI Logic, MediaTek Inc., Meridian Audio Ltd., Metta Technology, Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co.Ltd., Mitsui Chemicals Inc., Moser Baer India Limited, NEC Electronics Corporation, Nero, Optodisc Technology Corporation, Paramount Pictures Corporation, Pixela Corporation, Prodisc Technology Inc., Pulstec Industrial Co., Ltd., Ricoh Co., Ltd., Ritek Corporation, ShibaSoku Co. Ltd., Sigma Designs Inc., Sonic Solutions, Sonopress, Sony BMG Music Entertainment, ST Microelectronics, Sunext, Taiyo Yuden Co., Ltd.,, Texas Instruments, Inc., Universal Music Group, Victor Company of Japan, Ltd., Visionare Corporation, Zentek Technology Japan, Inc., ZOOtech Ltd. , Zoran Corporation, Alpine Electronics Inc., Asahi Kasei Microsystems Co., Ltd., ashampoo GmbH & Co. KG, Bandai Visual Co. Ltd., BASF AG, Basler Vision Technologies, BenQ Corporation, B.H.A. Corporation, Bose Corporation, B&W Group, The Cannery, Cheertek Inc., Cinram Manufacturing Inc., D&M holdings, Inc., Daewoo Electronics Corporation, Daikin Industries, Ltd., Daxon Technology Inc., Degussa, Eclipse Data Technologies, Elpida Memory, Inc., ESS Technology Inc., Expert Magnetics Corp., Fujitsu Ten Ltd., Funai Electric Co., Ltd., GalleryPlayer Media Networks, Gear Software, Hie Electronics, Inc., Hoei Sangyo Co., Ltd., IMAGICA Corp., INFODISC Technology Co., Ltd., Infomedia Inc., Intersil Corporation, Kadokawa Holdings Inc., Kaleidescape, Inc., Kitano Co., Ltd., Konica Minolta Opto Inc., Laser Pacific Media Corp., Lauda Co. Ltd., Lead Data Inc., LEADER ELECTRONICS CORP, Lenovo, Linn Products Ltd., LINTEC Corporation, M2 Engineering AB, MainConcept AG, Mitsumi Electric Co., Ltd., Must Technology Co., Ltd., MX Entertainment, Netflix Inc., Newtech Infosystems Inc., NEXAPM Systems Technology Inc., Nichia Corporation, Nikkatsu Corporation, NTT Electronics Corporation, nVidia Corporation, OC Oerlikon Balzer AG, Omnibus Japan Inc., Onkyo Corporation, Online Media Technologies Ltd., Ono Sokki Co., Ltd., OPT Corporation, Orbit Corp., Origin Electric Co., Ltd., Osmosys SA, Pinnacle Systems, PoINT Software & Systems GmbH, Pony Canyon Enterprise, PowerFile, Primera Technology, Inc., Quanta Storage Inc., Realtek Semiconductor Corp., Rimage Corporation, Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd., Dr. Schwab Inspection Technology GmbH, Shinano Kenshi Co. Ltd., Singulus Technologies, STEAG ETA-OPTIK GmbH, Sumitomo Bakelite, Tao Group Limited, Targray Technology International Inc., TEAC Corporation, Teijin Chemicals Ltd., THX Ltd., Toei Video Company Ltd., Toho Company, Ltd., Toppan Printing Co., Ltd., TOPTICA Photonics AG, Trailer Park, UmeDisc Ltd., Vivendi Universal Games, Yamaha Corporation, Yokogawa Electric Corporation, 1K Studios, LLC,

Now would you like to retract your obviously inaccurate statement?

Re:too different, too soon. (1)

mgblst (80109) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174022)

I find it quite disconcerting that we have to rely on people who buy box sets of friends, to choose the next format.

Bloggers != Consumers (5, Insightful)

Espen Skoglund (204722) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173692)

Right. So (most) bloggers have a strong dislike for Sony and everything they do. How is this news? This is akin to having an analysis of Slashdot postings concluding that most Slashdotters dislike Microsoft. As it turns out, neither bloggers nor Slashdotters give an accurate picture of the demographics of regular consumers. And given that people with a grudge against some idea or company -- in this case Sony -- are always the ones who cry out the loudest, I'm actually surprised that the "analysis" didn't come out even more slanted in HD-DVDs favour.

And what's the deal about 21 percent of the online consumers disliking Blu-ray because Sony included it in the PlayStation 3? I can see several reasons why poeple might resent Blu-ray, but this is definitely not one of them. The only conceivable explanation I can see behind such reasoning is peoples aversion against anything that is Sony.

Re:Bloggers != Consumers (1)

in2mind (988476) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174098)

Exactly.

Most of the articles/blog posts about Vista in the internet show dislike/strong criticism.But that doesn't mean Vista will fail!

And,as you said, there is not much content out there that shows support for HD-DVD either.

Re:Bloggers != Consumers (1)

buckadude (926560) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174194)

thank you for that. This type of reality check seems to be few and far between recently when this subject comes up.

Re:Bloggers != Consumers (1)

Hieronymus Howard (215725) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174200)

And what's the deal about 21 percent of the online consumers disliking Blu-ray because Sony included it in the PlayStation 3? I can see several reasons why poeple might resent Blu-ray, but this is definitely not one of them

Really? Not because Blu-Ray adds a considerable amount to the price of the PS3? Not because the lack of blue laser diodes means that the PS3 is in very short supply? Not because Sony is using the PS3 to try to win the format war against HD-DVD by trying to make the consumers choice for them?

Re:Bloggers != Consumers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17174296)

Sorry, but there is actually more support for HD DVD from the industry.

http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm [thedvdwars.com]

Not yet giving up on Blu-ray... (4, Interesting)

JaredOfEuropa (526365) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173734)

... and for one simple reason: the name. As one hip youngster pointed out to me, the name "HD-DVD" definitely lacks a cool factor. And it's such an ungainly mouthful: "Aich Dee Dee Vee Dee", yech. Nopes, "Blu-ray" rolls off the tongue much nicer.

Seriously, if there is no huge gap between the two systems in terms of available titles or choice of equipment, then Sony might just win on simething as silly as the name alone.

Re:Not yet giving up on Blu-ray... (0, Redundant)

Rahga (13479) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173792)

These days, "Betamax" sounds more like an office supply chain more than anything else, but it's always been smoother than "Vee Aitch Ess"... Didn't help back then, either.

Re:Not yet giving up on Blu-ray... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17173972)

People did not often refer to it as a VHS -- they said "let's record it on the VCR".

VHS and Betamax are VCR's.
PC's and Mac's are computers.
Where is the generic term that encompasses HD-DVD and BluRay? Nowhere, that's where. If you choose the alternative to BluRay, you are forced to speak all the letters in "H" "D" "D" "V" "D".

Re:Not yet giving up on Blu-ray... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17173986)

on the other hand it is much more clear for someone who is not that that much into all this technobabble, that an HD-DVD player is a DVD player for his new HD television set.

Re:Not yet giving up on Blu-ray... (1)

Shabbs (11692) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173998)

Are you kidding? The huge gap is in price! They both offer equivalent quality, yet one is almost twice the price as the other... guess who wins? Until BD players are the same price as HD-DVD players, HD-DVD is going to take the cake. All that extra "space" on the BD discs ain't gonna save it.

Re:Not yet giving up on Blu-ray... (1)

zoftie (195518) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174026)

Just talking to my girlfriend about blogging, she asks what is in that awful name too. Perhaps more elegant name shall be selected so masses can join in...

Re:Not yet giving up on Blu-ray... (2, Insightful)

Rayonic (462789) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174196)

Except that I keep hearing people refer to Blu-Ray as HD-DVD. Blu-Ray may be a sleeker name, but HD-DVD is more straightforward. It has a much larger presence in the public consciousness.

I mean, you play a DVD on a TV, so you'd play an HD-DVD on an HDTV. The prefix "HD" has become common.

Re:Not yet giving up on Blu-ray... (1)

novus ordo (843883) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174302)

Until you realize that you are saying "blurray" as in a Canadian version of blurry.

Re:Not yet giving up on Blu-ray... (1)

Charcharodon (611187) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174586)

A turd by any other name is still a turd.

I think people are actually getting sick of the blue led everything. It's almost like XTREME marketing.

People don't understand it, and if they did, they certainly are not going be willing to bring a wheel barrel full of money to the electronics store that you'll need for the equipment to play it, the movies themselves, and the HD 1080p tv's that for the most part are not even available in most stores. Those things that have the $2500+ price tag on them are not considered TV's by most of the sane world.

It'll be two or three years before the price will drop enough that people might be interested, that is a LONG time in the world of technology. On the other hand a little company by the name of Tivo is about to sneak in and eat their lunch, dinner, and breakfast. People understand Tivo's you hook it up and click on the menu and when your show comes on it records it. Play back is just as simple. Well harddrives are big and cheap NOW and the next generation of TV's are on their way. So instead of just recording your show when it comes on, instead you just select the show and when it's available to downloads straight to your box as soon as it's available. You know what it also happens to look quite good on the other, other HD format 768p which happens to be what you get 90% of the time when you walk into a store and request a HD TV. Again it's available now, and it's affordable now. The magic of it all Tivo could easily offer a 1080i or 1080p solution without any change in what the customers sees and the way it works as well as incorporate all those bigger and bigger harddrives that are available.

So pretty much the format war was already over before HD-DVD and Blue-ray even got started. If they had half a brain cell they'd hurry up and release the burners and media to computer users before they become ilrelevant. Oops too late. Already have an external harddrive that is 10x bigger than anything they offer and the 20x ones will be available in a few short months.

Digital age? (2, Insightful)

DynamicPhil (785187) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173820)

Physical formats?
HD-DVD? Blue Ray? EVD? (last option chinese format)

Last time I checked, we were living in the digital age.

This means that at least I won't be buying *anything* where the bits are locked to the media, and non movable - and I'll enlighten, family, relatives .. ok, in fact anyone who wants to know - that if they do, they will be buying their media collection all over again when new formats arrive.

It will be the "Video is dead - buy movies you already own again on DVD, chuck your LP's and get the same stuff, again, e.t.c." situation again.

Better quality as an argument to upgrade? Nahh, think about it.... People will watch almost anything in bad choppy webcamquality, just think about YouTube!

/Just my 5 cents ....

Re:Digital age? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17174160)

Even if you go digital you'll still be buying media over and over again thanks to drm. That's what it's there for after all.

horrible research (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17173838)

It's pretty lame a market analysis firm claims to have "research" based on such fanboy territory as game consoles, and such flamebait territory as forum posts. How more biased can you get?

Disruptive technology waiting in the wings? (5, Interesting)

AlzaF (963971) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173848)

Isn't the decreasing cost of increased broadband bandwidth and increased hard disk space will eventually make HD disc formats obsolete?

It's just a matter of ignorance (5, Insightful)

FunkeyMonk (1034108) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173880)

My wife and I recently saw a TV commercial for a movie "now available on DVD and Blu-Ray." She said: "What's Blu-ray?" That's exactly the problem with both formats.

Nobody in the non-geek world knows what they are, so nobody cares.

Re:It's just a matter of ignorance (1)

joe 155 (937621) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174214)

To some extent that might be true of "Blu-ray" but I think people really get what HD-DVD is. I'm not sure about where you are but in England we've recently been getting blitzed with adverts for HD TVs and what have you and there is a "HD ready" sticker on pretty much all new TVs now; I think people have got what it means and it has a genuine mind-share now.

After all, if you've just bought a £1500 HDTV then you NEED a HD-DVD player, right?

EVD anyone? (4, Insightful)

Cadallin (863437) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173900)

There's always the possibility the Chinese will come in and eat everybody's lunch, and given their much greater tendency (compared to the US government and others) to tell the various IP oligopolies to go fuck themselves, I'm all for it. I'd be perfectly happy to have a Chinese EVD player/recorder for my HD material, to go along with a Chinese Dragon Dream MIPS box running linux.

Re:EVD anyone? (2, Interesting)

yabos (719499) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174526)

The Chinese format does seem better in those aspects but the only thing missing from it is content. What movie studio is ever going to release content on an EVD disk? I also bet it wouldn't be allowed to be sold in the U.S. because the movie studios are in bed with the government to influence copyright law.

If either standard is to take off (1)

Adult film producer (866485) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173954)

Then remove all the DRM garbage, copying restrictions and whatever else is present that limits what the consumer can achieve with these products. If I were able to buy a blu-ray movie disc and make a copy for my mom or brother, you can bet they'd have one ASAP, I'd probably even buy my parents one. It needs to be as flexible as VHS when recording television programs. Is the consumer really anxious for blu-ray/hddvd recorders making the decision as to when commercials can be fast-forwarded though? what programs can be recorded, how many times it can be played, whether or not it can be lent out to a friend.. All of the above is just nonsense that nobody really wants, not even the executives at these big media companies.

Looking at the current crop of "next generation" dvd standards makes me wonder why they would expect any kind of success with such crippled junk. Sony and Toshiba need to relax and accept piracy for the fact that it is.

Bias Poll (0)

kbox (980541) | more than 7 years ago | (#17173958)

They only asked Steve Irwin fans, And they got it confused with the sting-ray.
(c'mon, It can't *still* be 'too soon')

Sony doesnt like sharing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17173980)

Kinda off topic but interesting (/me waves hand in air, mod this +5 interesting) is that Sony has now made it so that you can not share/trade psp game saves as of 2.8 firmware.

Sony isn't that stupid (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17173988)

I think some people forget Sony is a big format giant. They have made a whole bunch of formats that I actually like (mini disk, Blu-ray). What I think people are forgetting is that Sony had made the compact disk. So I really must say that Sony isn't stupid, they only made the most popular form of disk known to man. I really hate to see people forgetting or even being ignorant of that when they start lashing out and call Sony stupid. Maybe now Blu-ray isn't the hot hit, but I would much rather be working with Blu-ray on my computer rather than HD-DVD. Blu-ray has other advantages BEYOND movies and games (who'd thunk it?!). When I decide to back up media I have saved to my PC (3D models, Z-Brush files, textures, movies, games) I would save them on a Blu-ray disk. Faster reading/writing and with some Blu-ray PC disk trays they have support for CD, DVD, and Blu-ray. When it comes down to it I would pick Blu-ray. As much as I support Microsoft (Zune, X-Box 360, X-Box, windows, vista, DOOM ect.) Blu-ray works on their OS so I might as well use it, if only for superior storage space.

Re:Sony isn't that stupid (1)

LordKaT (619540) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174566)

I thought Philips had a much larger role in developing Red Book than Sony did, whereas Sony supported the format with their devices?

ZONK BASHING SONY AGAIN!!!111one (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17174038)

oh, wait...

I don't agree (1)

smoker2 (750216) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174068)

From what I can see, you can't actually buy a HD-DVD writer for the pc yet, whereas blu-ray writers have been available for sometime, along with related media. Personally, I don't care about the hi-def video aspect of this technology, just the larger capacity writable media.

A Blu-ray writer [svp.co.uk] that can also write to all other optical disks (apart from HD-DVD of course) is coming in cheaper than the first gen cd *players* did. Give them a year or so and they will be affordable enough to be included in all OEM pcs.

I could only get one search result [theinquirer.net] for an available HD-DVD writer (stand alone device), and it turned out to be Blu-ray !

I call astro-turf! (1)

Bobzibub (20561) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174118)

Microsoft is just warming up their blog-o-sphere marketing engine again. I guess that's where Vista's marketing budget went. = )

And why wouldn't they? They've done it with other products previously. The threat is that as soon as Sony (finally) sorts out their production issues, Microsoft will have to eat hd-dvd's development costs. Sure they'll sell a few Xbox 360 HD-DVD attachments, but with no hdcp, I doubt the studios will cozy up to the format w/o a kickback. Sony will eventually, slowly, sell a lot of PS3s. Every single one a good quality blue ray player.

Don't like either format (1)

failedlogic (627314) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174134)

IMO, I don't like either format. While I expect the price of the players for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray to come down in the next few years, I don't want to pay a $10 to $15 premium (in CAD $) for the movie just becuase its in a higher definition content. A movie is still only as good as its actors, script, etc - the sum of its parts. Its still the same content I'm paying to watch, and I don't believe it ever will deserve premium money.

A premium, I think, should only be earned if the content is truly spectacular and a new experience - like virtual reality type stuff.

Simple thing (1)

Quiet_Desperation (858215) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174276)

I refuse to support any format where the playback device ever has to tell me "Operation not possible". Skipping an ad or just getting to the bloody movie, for example.

I don't copy DVDs because I'm a cheap bastard. I copy them because I can strip out all the crap that way, and just have the movie on the disc. I don't even have to recompress them anymore with dual layer burners available now.

Re:Simple thing (4, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174424)

"I refuse to support any format where the playback device ever has to tell me "Operation not possible". Skipping an ad or just getting to the bloody movie, for example."

Agreed: I'm so tired of sitting through several minutes of bloody trailers and anti-piracy ads _ON A DVD I'VE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR_ every time I put it in the damn player. At least on my PC I can skip over that crap.

Competiiton vs cooperation (1)

maximthemagnificent (847709) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174404)

The underlying issue here with all of this next-gen DVD format stuff is that the old system of
competion between formats has supplanted cooperation on formats. The DVD format was a
cooperation, and IBM was called in to decide who's submitted format would be best. They
determined that a combination of the features of the two formats would be best, and that's
what we got (Divx aside). I'm not saying the DVD format doesn't have it's limitations, but the
end result of competition in the design phase and cooperation during the production phase
beats the hell out of what we're seeing now.

Oh yeah, and it's too soon for a next-gen DVD anyway. I don't own a HDTV. Most of the world
doesn't either. They keep forgetting that in many ways, the extra features of DVDs, not just the
higher quality were a big selling point.

DVDs came too late, HD-DVDs are coming too early, IMO.

Maxim

Astroturf Alert (1)

Salamander (33735) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174422)

The talking points in this story so exactly mirror those I've seen in the last couple of days elsewhere (especially the "angry about other formats" one and the overuse of "negative buzz" just like on digg yesterday) that coincidence seems an unlikely explanation. Somebody's trying very hard to "get the word out" on blogs and forums, and probably being paid to do it. It's not clear whether Cymfony merely failed to notice the astroturf or are complicit in it but, since they call themselves a "market influence" (PR) vendor, active involvement seems a whole lot more likely than naivete. Either way, Slashdot shouldn't be posting disguised press releases. Full disclosure: none to make. I don't own Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, or even an HDTV. I don't intend to own any of those things soon, either, and I have no other financial connection (that I'm aware of) to any of the organizations that do have a horse in this race. I just really hate astroturf.

Sony's death rattle (1)

prtsoft (702850) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174456)

Sony can't seem to win for losing. They were doing ok, at least in my mind, until the DRM root kit, and it went downhill from there. Blu-ray is just another straw on the camels back. I have to wonder, how much more can the market take?

Stupid war (2)

gspawn (703815) | more than 7 years ago | (#17174598)

Random points that have been said before:

-Downloads and on-demend viewing are the wave of the future. Both Sony and Microsoft recognize they're moving toward content download, and both companies wonder if their next game console will need discs at all. Don't forget that both satellite and cable services already provide on-demand viewing. See also: Downloadable movies and TV on Xbox Live a model for the future?

-High definition doesn't matter to most consumers. Most people don't even know what the heck "HD" really means anyway. Think Wal-Mart customers, here. Heck, even rabbit ears for those still afraid of cable continue to sell pretty well.

-HDTV penetration is still terribly low. Even after this Christmas, the industry would probably be amazed if 20% of homes were HD-ready (players/providers and TVs).

-Combine this with people CLEARLY valuing content over quality. Look at the amazing success of YouTube, and any attempts to argue that customers are hungry for quality over mass content availability is ridiculous. People want content on demand, which satellite (and cable and downloads) can provide.

-Combine with all of the above, DVD is really in the prime of its life. VHS has only just been declared officially dead to most outlets, and even elderly consumers are really getting into DVD. Specifically, DVD-R/VHS combo players that allow archiving VHS to DVD are a supreme luxury purchase for many elderly consumers. You have to see the glow in an elderly person's face when they hear they can archive their tapes forever without quality loss to truly appreciate how far DVD has come.

-Which leads to the conclusion that now is NOT the time for a next-gen format war. DVD is going to own the market for years to come, and when it's finally failing us, content download will have enough experience to pick up and move us into the future. Next-gen DVD is just a temporary patch to get us over the hump. And even if people were ready for next-gen DVD (which they're not), they're going to be confused as hell as to what a "BluRay" or an "HD-DVD" is, or why the hell 1080 matters more than 720.

-And let us not forget, the next-gen war might already be over! Hybrid discs and hybrid players are already preparing to make the format war a moot point. Not to mention holographic storage that makes both of these formats look ridiculously underpowered. Low supply of PS3 and BluRay over the holiday season has led many consumers to pick up HD-DVD, potentially meaning HD-DVD already has the install base to win over the war. And even Microsoft admit that they're not really worried about the format war- before the launch of their the HD-DVD add-on, Gates himself was quoted as saying that if BluRay took off, they'd just make a Bluray accessory for the 360 as well. And even if BluRay truly picks up, if BluRay wants to be installed in computers, it's going to have to be sold in Microsoft-powered PCs if it wants to take the market. Oh, the humanity!

Personally, I think this format war will go down as nothing but senseless. Both sides already hope to move beyond optical storage. More promising formats (holographic, download) are going to reach practicality soon. Format-busters are hitting the market soon (hybrid players and discs).

What was the point of even engaging in this war, anyway?
Oh, right, because a few videophiles are terribly worried that they can't get optimal movie delivery for their 60", $5,000+ plasma from only one DVD per movie. Bu bu bu. The other 90% of us... really don't care. And even if we did, we still only own SDTVs.

And to quash a counter-point:
If you have the money for an HDTV, you probably also have the money and/or resources for broadband, or satellite, or on-demand HD cable, or (etc). Why do you need discs anyway? Most consumers don't have access to those things... but they also don't have HDTVs, and they also don't care.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...