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Debian Delayed by Disenchanted Developers

CmdrTaco posted more than 7 years ago | from the look-at-all-that-alliteration dept.

Debian 329

Torus Kas writes "Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 was supposed to be due by December 4 and development is currently frozen. Apparently the saga was triggered by disenchantment towards funding of $6,000 for each of the 2 release managers to work full-time in order to speed up the development. Many unpaid developers simply put off Debian work to work on something else."

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Don't forget... (1, Funny)

SCO$699FeeTroll (695565) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316234)

...to pay your $699 licensing fee you cock-smoking teabaggers.

I... I love you.. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316324)

where.. where have you been?

MOD PARENT UP [nt] (-1, Troll)

Nimey (114278) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316344)

en tee

Re:Don't forget... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316580)

I know I shouldn't be encouraging a troll but holy crap that was funny. I may have peed a little.

Dumb Editor (5, Interesting)

Alphager (957739) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316248)

The development is NOT frozen. The Packages going into Etch are frozen, meaning that the current versions will get into etch with all the necessary bugfixes. development is on full steam.

Re:Dumb Editor (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316316)

This is why Linux will never catch on. "Packages going into Etch"?? WTF does that mean? If a well-educated slashdot reader has no clue what you're talking about, how is the general public, let alone my grandma, supposed to use Linux?

Re:Dumb Editor (1, Troll)

drxenos (573895) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316358)

I understood what he meant, and I rarely use Linux and have never used Debian.

Re:Dumb Editor (5, Insightful)

Cocoronixx (551128) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316388)

Understanding (or not) the behind the scenes nomenclature of a development environment has no bearing on your ability to use the final product.

Re:Dumb Editor (1, Funny)

wumpus188 (657540) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316406)

General public, let alone your grandma, is supposed to use Ubuntu. Fuck off.

Re:Dumb Editor (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316454)

Appendly, you are the one is NOT well educated. Does you or your grandma have to worry about the release process for Windows?

Dumb editor, but there is an issue. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316510)

The problem is that dunk-tanc.org really is splitting the community. What they're providing is valuable to some - and does indeed help some problems - but unfortunately it's counterproductive to others people's needs and wants.

You've now got a subset of Debian guys motivated by money, and the rest of them still motivated by making a quality Linux distribution. Sometimes those interests are aligned (as the guys who set up dunc-tank observed) but sometimes those interests are NOT (as the guys who started Caldera and Novell now see when Microsoft can easily use the motivated-by-money lever to change the course of the projects).

IMHO, Debian should stay Debian - and stay as far away from money and paid work as possible -- and let organziations like Ubuntu build the corporate bureacracy stuff like release schedules, support contracts, etc. I hope Ubuntu buys dunc-tank.org and takes those employees with them -- because they and their work are useful for corporate marketing -- but do more harm than good to Debian development.

Re:Dumb editor, but there is an issue. (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316796)

So what you're saying is that Debian is for fucked-up smelly hippies who just can't handle the idea that people need money to live? Debian is too "pure" for anyone to get a pittance for their contribution? If you want your work accepted in Debian you'd better be independently wealthy? Oh fine. Sure sounds like the GNU ideal to me.

Update and modest suggestions (4, Insightful)

HighOrbit (631451) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316284)

There is an update on Andreas Barth's Blog [turmzimmer.net] that says "Update: There are media rumours floating around that "[Etch has] been delayed because some developers have deliberately slowed down their work". This doesn't reflect what I said."

The article did not say what packages were delayed specifically, but Debian is known to have an insane number of packages. Perhaps some culling is in order. I'm not part of the project, just an appreciative user, but here are my two cents.
  1. Cut the distro down to what will fit on one CD (two max). That will reduce a lot of Debian's headaches. Less for them to maintain and less to test between releases. Everything else can be put into contributed non-official repositories
  2. Don't be so anal and patch-happy with mainstream packages. Big projects like Gnome and KDE already do extensive testing upstream. Those packages should be able to move more quickly through the unstable-testing-stable cycle without sacrificing stability or extensive patching. How much of the debian patching on these type of big projects is *really* functionally necessary versus "I 'm the debian package mantainer and I want to put my mark on it".

About the project being "frozen", I don't know about that. I have a laptop running etch-testing. I did an apt-get dist-upgrade in mid-Nov , put it away for a few weeks and ran it again in early-Dec (don't remember exact dates). Something like 70 packages needed upgrades.

Re:Update and modest suggestions (5, Informative)

inigo_jones (1041346) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316416)

>> "Cut the distro down to what will fit on one CD (two max)...."

dont do it Debian... its great to be able to apt-cache search and apt-get install almost anything. such a huge collection of available software that JUST WORKS is great. a little (or lot) longer release cycle doesnt really effect the bulk of users who just use "testing" anyway.

my 2 cents. Debian's base of huge packages, and apt are great assets. apt-get into it :-)

Re:Update and modest suggestions (1)

HighOrbit (631451) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316496)

I think the apt-cache search function will work on any repository (official or not) in your apt sources list. My point is to let the maintainers do what they want, but don't let them act as a drag on the whole project.

Re:Update and modest suggestions (2, Informative)

bubkus_jones (561139) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317280)

Apt works with non-official repositories. What the parent wants is the official, default, debian sources to be slimmed down to something more managable, the main packages people use, while the rest of it can be set to third-party repositories that people can add in (or activate) as they need. Hell, they could be included in the sources.list file, just commented out until those who need them activate them (like Ubuntu does).

Re:Update and modest suggestions (2, Informative)

gek (634926) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316466)

Cut the distro down to what will fit on one CD (two max). That will reduce a lot of Debian's headaches. Less for them to maintain and less to test between releases. Everything else can be put into contributed non-official repositories

I don't agree with you on this one. The biggest power of Debian is that most packages, even obscure one, fit into one distribution with all the testing and dependancies being resolved. I have experience with Red hat, Suze, and solaris (ouch on that one) systems where installing off the beat application can sometimes be hell. Debian provides a quick way of testing application before deciding to start a buld process where you get to spend half your evening building the newest of the newest libraries. Been using Debian since Hamm and I hav gotten used to delays... If you feel lucky you can always dist-up to Unstable.

Re:Update and modest suggestions (4, Interesting)

und0 (928711) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316618)

Don't be so anal and patch-happy with mainstream packages. Big projects like Gnome and KDE already do extensive testing upstream.

You sure about that? I've read recently from an upstream Gnome developer that GTK lacks maintainers ( http://blogs.gnome.org/view/timj/2006/12/20/0 [gnome.org] ), Etch will ship Gnome 2.14 because of unresolved GTK bugs, so what you're saying seems quite wrong...

Re:Update and modest suggestions (2, Insightful)

timeOday (582209) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316682)

Debian is known to have an insane number of packages. Perhaps some culling is in order.
IMO, the value of a distribution is almost nothing but the number of supported packages, and how up-to-date they are. (Granted there is tension between these two). Even gentoo is struggling, as seemingly half the time, the package I want to install is masked.

Linux would be so much better if there were a single de-facto package management system, and vastly fewer dependencies between packages. The license is free! If you want to depend on something, just dump the code into your package. The few megabytes of drive space conserved isn't even nearly worth the hours of hunting for packages and resolving dependencies between them.

And don't say it's as easy as yum/apt-get/emerge xxx. Sometimes it is, but only in the best case. Just as often there is no package for the software you want, or it's hopelessly outdated, or it uses a different version of libC from the other 4999 packages installed. All of these problems are caused or aggravated by the hunge number of inter-package dependencies.

Re:Update and modest suggestions (3, Informative)

Kjella (173770) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316744)

About the project being "frozen", I don't know about that. I have a laptop running etch-testing. I did an apt-get dist-upgrade in mid-Nov , put it away for a few weeks and ran it again in early-Dec (don't remember exact dates). Something like 70 packages needed upgrades.

Well, debian goes through a few stages of freeze. Base freeze was some time ago, general freeze was Dec 11th, but still there's something like 130 RC bugs that needs to be solved. I think the original plan called for something like 1.5mo of freeze, so probably sometime in January.

In any case, this is not what I call a big delay, it's maybe a month behind a release schedule of every 18 months, whereas the last took something like three years. 18 months is basicly the same as Ubuntu LTS and many other server oriented distros, if you want quicker updates go for (K)Ubuntu.

From what I gather the Debian system does a lot more than simply packing up whatever upstream does, but I think they could differentiate on levels of support. For non-server software I imagine that for many of the packages, there's no upstream support for so old versions anyway.

Re:Update and modest suggestions (4, Insightful)

nine-times (778537) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316864)

Cut the distro down to what will fit on one CD (two max). That will reduce a lot of Debian's headaches. Less for them to maintain and less to test between releases. Everything else can be put into contributed non-official repositories

I think that what's really great about Debian is that it has such wide support for everything. If there's a distro capable of being anything to anyone, and still doing everything pretty well, it's probably Debian. There are plenty of other projects that do just what you're talking about. They take Debian, reduce the number of packages to what makes sense for a particular purpose, and that allows more work to be done on fewer packages in less time, creating a distro that's more specialized. Why would you want Debian to do that, too?

Re:Update and modest suggestions (1)

HighOrbit (631451) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317432)

I think that what's really great about Debian is that it has such wide support for everything. If there's a distro capable of being anything to anyone, and still doing everything pretty well, it's probably Debian. There are plenty of other projects that do just what you're talking about. They take Debian, reduce the number of packages to what makes sense for a particular purpose, and that allows more work to be done on fewer packages in less time, creating a distro that's more specialized. Why would you want Debian to do that, too?

You can turn that argument on its head. Maintain a high quality core, and let specialized users add their special packages on top as they please in contributed respositories. I'd do that to make the core better. You could still apt-get gObscureFoo.deb after it was moved into a contributed repository. It just means that delays in gObscureFoo isn't holding back the core OS.

Re:Update and modest suggestions (3, Insightful)

Hatta (162192) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317152)

Debian is known to have an insane number of packages. Perhaps some culling is in order.

You're crazy. The whole point of debian is so that you can apt-get everything in the freaking universe. I never have to go hunting down packages, that means a lot to me. Sure 90% of users only use 10% of the packages, but it's never the same 10%. So if you start just dropping packages, you're going to piss people off.

Cut the distro down to what will fit on one CD (two max). That will reduce a lot of Debian's headaches. Less for them to maintain and less to test between releases.

And less reason for anyone to use debian. If you want something that's pared down to a CD and doesn't offer you a lot of choice up front, try ubuntu.

Re:Update and modest suggestions (2, Interesting)

asuffield (111848) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317222)

Cut the distro down to what will fit on one CD (two max). That will reduce a lot of Debian's headaches. Less for them to maintain and less to test between releases.


That will accomplish nothing. You clearly don't understand how Debian is developed. Each package is maintained by people who care about getting that particular package in the next release. If it's working at that point, it goes in. If it isn't, it gets thrown out, and nobody else wastes any time on it. There is no conceivable reason why throwing out the stuff that already works would make things any easier - and the stuff that doesn't work is already thrown out. Size is not the problem.

Don't be so anal and patch-happy with mainstream packages. Big projects like Gnome and KDE already do extensive testing upstream. Those packages should be able to move more quickly through the unstable-testing-stable cycle without sacrificing stability or extensive patching.


You have clearly never attempted to maintain them downstream. All that 'extensive testing' they do upstream? It's on Redhat, or SuSE, with their own extensively patched versions, tested for the purposes which their paying customers just happened to be using. Fine if you're doing the same thing as them. Useless if you aren't. Does not even attempt to fix the huge numbers of bugs introduced with each new upstream release of these projects.

Redhat and SuSE find loads of bugs with their testing, and send the fixes back upstream.... to be included in the next release. Which has had more new bugs added. Nobody serious ships the unmodified upstream code, it's just used as a common base for patching and propagating patches between distributions.

How much of the debian patching on these type of big projects is *really* functionally necessary versus "I 'm the debian package mantainer and I want to put my mark on it".


Almost every single patch applied to a Debian package is made in response to bug reports filed by Debian users (most of the remaining handful is for policy compliance, portability, or licensing issues). Debian maintainers are far too lazy to go inventing new work to do when there are thousands of outstanding bug reports against these 'extensively tested' packages, listing all the ways in which they suck and need to be fixed.

(I'm an ex-Debian developer who quit for personal reasons)

Re:Update and modest suggestions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17317246)

Cut the distro down to what will fit on one CD (two max). That will reduce a lot of Debian's headaches. Less for them to maintain and less to test between releases. Everything else can be put into contributed non-official repositories


This would strip debian of that which makes it great. It is the effort and discipline of those package maintainers to test and properly build everything that allows you to apt-get install whatever without descending into dep hell.

Yes debian is slow. That is a good thing. It means that it works. If they pushed new releases out every six months, not only would everybody get tired of the headache of constantly upgrading (especially in the non-enthusiast group, like corporate people or people who just want to use their PCs with little effort), it would be full of bugs and there would not be very much supported software.

Re:Update and modest suggestions (4, Insightful)

arivanov (12034) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317332)

You have just described RedHat. No thanks.

I would rather have Debian release schedules, but have all the packages that are in it. Most of the sysadmins out there who deploy debian do it exactly because "Resistance is futile, you shall be packaged" and because "apt-get install light" works 99.99% of the time.

As a result there is a working platform on which to build services and commercial software regardless of what insane libraries your developers have chosen this time. Whatever it is, it can be apt-get installed. In the very rare cases you sometimes have to backport a version from testing, but someone has already solved most of the dependencies for you.

Trying something similar with RedHat quickly brings you into the land of RPM hell. I always love watching sysadmins suffering while trying to support development in a RedHat shop (especially where developers have su/sudo access). It is immensely entertaining to watch the network fall apart and be reduced to a random collection of machines all different from each other and each in its own circle of the RPM hell none being able to produce a release build.

So from the perspective of someone who has been running Debian driven networks for 6+ years and with 5+ years of supporting Debian as a base for commercial development I can say - no thank you, you misunderstood what brings most sysadmins to Debian. It is the best *nix development platform out there.

Re:Update and modest suggestions (1)

Chandon Seldon (43083) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317438)

Why would you want Debian to reproduce Ubuntu? Ubuntu already exists!

Debian's really great because it's Debian. It has packages for everything, and it has extensive testing that produces super-stable server releases. Everything fits together well because the developers are willing to patch stuff to make it work the way they want it to.

Interesting... (5, Funny)

Otter (3800) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316318)

My first reaction to the headline was to wonder why this is news. If anything, it's "Debian developers pause mailing list flamewar, release software" that would be newsworthy.

But it's actually a fascinating case of unintended consequences -- hiring some full-time workers seems to have had precisely the opposite effective of the intended. It's a lesson worth considering before deciding that, say, what some third world country really, really needs is millions of laptops dumped on their children.

Re:Interesting... (2)

gt_mattex (1016103) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316428)

hiring some full-time workers seems to have had precisely the opposite effective of the intended

What I want to know is, who can afford to live on 6K fulltime?

Is there a zero missing?

Re:Interesting... (1)

Qzukk (229616) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316528)

who can afford to live on 6K fulltime?

They're being paid for a month or two, not a whole year.

Re:Interesting... (2, Insightful)

Jherek Carnelian (831679) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316858)

What I want to know is, who can afford to live on 6K fulltime?

In the Philippines the average yearly salary for software developers was right at $6K, last time I checked. I expect that other 3rd world countries are similar.

Not that deb guys were filipinos, just answering the more general question.

Re:Interesting... (2, Informative)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316564)

hiring some full-time workers seems to have had precisely the opposite effective of the intended.

not workers... managers. I think most technical/coder/slashdot types have the same general opinion of managers and management (*cough* parasites *cough*). Many open source projects have paid individual programmers with no backlash. And many companies pay for programmers to write open source code. Sometimes it doesn't work out (ie, the XEmacs/Emacs split), but it doesn't usually outrage other developers.

The lesson here is: (1)

spun (1352) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316612)

Never try to help anyone but yourself. Trying to help yourself is noble and good. Helping others is based on the delusion that you can even try to put yourself in another's shoes and understand what they need or want. It will only lead to heartache. Selfishness is next to Godliness. Which is next to sarcasm, in case you couldn't figure that one out.

Re:Interesting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316642)

Give money to management, expect developers to work for free. Who would've thought that that could backfire...

Pffft (4, Interesting)

phrostie (121428) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316334)

i've been running debian/etch(testing) for ages. the whole freeze thing doesn't matter to me.
i don't know what everyone else has their apt sources pointed at, but the rate of updates haven't changed any that i can see.

take your time, make it stable.
then i'll switch to what ever the next one is.

Re:Pffft (4, Insightful)

croddy (659025) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316448)

I'm not even sure who's clamoring for Etch to release. Anyone who needs the latest toys can run it already, and anyone who really needs the stability of Debian Stable knows that it will be released when it's ready.

It's the other distros that seem to be in a huge hurry. To each his own; that's why we have more than one distro.

Which part is delayed? (3, Funny)

Wee (17189) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316348)

Is it the "GNU" part or the "Linux" part that is going to be delayed?

I kid because I love. :-)

-B

Should be "Disenchanted Developers Delay Debian" (4, Funny)

ishmalius (153450) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316350)

Now -that- is how to write an irritating alliterative headline! ^^

Re:Should be "Disenchanted Developers Delay Debian (4, Funny)

akpoff (683177) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316574)

An annoyingly alliterative announcement.

The title of parent post should be: (2, Funny)

Trails (629752) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316696)

Alliterative Article Appelation Aggravates Argumentative Arbiter of Arbitrary And Academic Article Arrangement

Re:The title of parent post should be: (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17317042)

Fuck you, you fucking fuck.

I can baet taht! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17317328)

More Funds for the Dyslexic

Re:The title of parent post should be: (1)

grcumb (781340) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317400)

Alliterative Article Appelation Aggravates Argumentative Arbiter of Arbitrary And Academic Article Arrangement

Er, that's not alliteration, that's assonance [wikipedia.org] . Pronounced ASS-onan-ce. 8^)

Who needs it. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316366)

Why would anyone touch or get involved with a distro known mostly for the petty bickering of its pretentious and self-absorbed developers. People like this are not just what's wrong with Debian, but the "Open Sores" pathos in general.

Heirarchy and human nature (4, Insightful)

heroine (1220) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316382)

Funny isn't it, how no matter how many times humans start over with a utopian system, they end up concentrating their wealth into a small number of strong leaders and leaving a large number of impoverished citizens. We really are programmed to institutionalize.

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (2, Insightful)

NDPTAL85 (260093) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316558)

If is funny. The question now is where do we go from here? Continue to be ashamed of our intrinsic natures and stick to faulty societal models (socialism) or accept ourselves as the selfish beings that we are and finally become comfortable with capitalism?

Of course this is all assuming you accept the premise to begin with, which I do.

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (1)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316750)

I almost feel enlightened for having embraced capitalism at such a young age.

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (4, Insightful)

suv4x4 (956391) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316776)

If is funny. The question now is where do we go from here? Continue to be ashamed of our intrinsic natures and stick to faulty societal models (socialism) or accept ourselves as the selfish beings that we are and finally become comfortable with capitalism?

You see, both models are actually part of our intrinsic nature. As separate beings, capitalism makes sense. As cogs in a large system (or cells in an organism if you will), socialism makes sense.

Since we're currently on the borderline between separate beings, and part of one "uber-being" (society), such conflicts will always arise again and again.

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (1)

Zonnald (182951) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317414)

I think I agree; It is are selfish nature that makes us want to embrace socialism. By embracing socialism, we ensure that we (our community) look after ourselves (individual).

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (1)

12ahead (586157) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316784)

I guess in the spirit of the grandparents comment, the current form of capitalism neets to be tweaked a little to make it even more ideal for humans. Get rid of the last traces of democracy and create a total dictatorship, economically and politically. 95% of the people do not care and are happy to follow. The other 5% will dedicate their lives to the opposition and fight the system. Add to that a technologically advanced and strong military/police, combine that with fearmongering through corporate media - voila 95% are happy by default, the other 5% dream of martyrism and soon-to-come change and live in their own bitter happiness.

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (1)

corbettw (214229) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317116)

So, you're suggesting that the real key to controlling the population is choice. As long as the 95% choose to accept the system, even if on an unconscience level, they'll be able to live happily? And then the other 5% is like a pressure valve, so to speak? And they're allowed to "wake up" and fight the system, maybe even run off and create some kind of Utopian society that gets destroyed by the powers-that-be every few generations, but even then it's just another level of control?

Why does that sound so familiar?

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (2, Insightful)

siufish (814496) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316868)

It is also interesting to see how the leading capitalist economies moving from laissez-faire to mono/oligopolistic capitalism, and then also a large increase in government legislation and expenditure since the Depression.

Maybe neither pure socialism or pure capitalism is the answer?

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (4, Insightful)

the phantom (107624) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317036)

Honestly, I question the sanity and/or sincerity of anyone who claims to believe that any pure system is "the answer," be it capitalism, socialism, communism, Christianity, Buddhism, atheism, or anything else.

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (1)

SharpFang (651121) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316890)

You can be sure whoever gets the short end of the stick in capitalism, won't be comfortable with it. And if you take care so that nobody does, you get socialism. Capitalism is based on a constant struggle, the strong and rich try to exploit and squash the poor and weak, and the poor and weak try to pull them down and grab a handful for themselves. If they all start working towards equality, capitalism ends, socialism begins. If the rich lose, you have a revolution and anarchy, if the poor lose, you have feudalism or similar.

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (1, Insightful)

NDPTAL85 (260093) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317054)

You are correct that in capitalism competition occurs. You are incorrect on where it occurs however. Its not between the poor and the rich. Its between two peoples of any walk of life. There is no limit on how many times you can try again. Those who are on the bottom are those who constantly fail and hardly ever succeed or those who don't even try to begin with. No one wins or loses all the time but some do win or lose most of the time. Each matchup carries potential victory for either side but if you have no skills, ambition or education then you will fail more often or not. This can make it seem like the rich always win but thats not always the case, its not that simple.

Capitalism is the fairest system though. If you are getting the short end of the stick, then improve YOURSELF. Go to school, change careers, make drastic life changes. Its either that or start your own revolutionary army because life in general is not going to improve for you just because you may be bitter and or envious. You'll have to work hard, AND smart, for what you want.

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (1)

Jherek Carnelian (831679) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317016)

Of course this is all assuming you accept the premise to begin with, which I do.

It's not clear exactly what your premise is, but if it is that software ownership can be defined in terms of socialism and capitalism, then that would be a bad assumption to make.

The conflict between the two economic philosophies is mostly about the management of rivalrous resources, i.e. stuff that gets used up. Software is inherently non-rivalrous so any direct application of the ideas of either economic philosophy to software would be analogous to applying them to something (almost) as non-rivalrous as air.

On the other hand, the labor involved in the creation of software is rivalrous. But that is a wholly separate matter from ownership of software. Unless you advocate slavery, labor can not be "owned" in a concentrated form.

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (1)

NDPTAL85 (260093) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317180)

I don't think its a bad assumption to make at all. People assume that since software is a digital product and copying it is almost without expense that it is a totally non-scarce material.

Once it has been made, this is true. But the development of said software still depends on limited resources, skillful programmers. Then once it is made it needs skillful maintainers. A few thousand open source contributers does not equal either. Their skill livels MAY be as good as the original developers, most often its not.

So now, Debian Linux, one of the "free'est" of the Linux distributions is demonstrating to the world the true cost and expense of developing and depending on free/open source software. The real resource is as with proprietary software, the developers and at any time in free software they can just become disenchanted or "bored" and just walk away from a project and leave it hanging. Its pure, cinderella-type fantasy to assume that every open source contributer in the world can or will even WANT to step right in and pick up the slack. We're this a company, replacement programmers could be hired and trained to take over. There's no such system in place with free software/open source. Its all so haphazard.

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (1)

Jherek Carnelian (831679) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317218)

That's great and all, but what exactly does socialism vs capitalism and concentration of wealth have to do with what you wrote?

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17317382)

The question now is where do we go from here?

If you believe in science then everything that happens, including "where we go from here", is dictated by the laws of physics. Basically, we'll go wherever the laws of physics make us go.

Continue to be ashamed of our intrinsic natures...

You mean wanting to be rich without doing any work? I'm not ashamed of feeling that way but a lot of Republicans seem to think I should.

...and stick to faulty societal models (socialism)...

If socialism means being forced to pay for a war that I'm opposed to, then let's do away with socialism. If the government wants a war then they should have to hold a bake sale. If I should have to pay for the war because I benefit from having it forced on me then let's talk about how you benefit from being forced to help the poor.

...or accept ourselves as the selfish beings that we are and finally become comfortable with capitalism?

The key idea behind capitalism is that people earn money according to the sum of

  1. The value of the work they do themselves (labor).
  2. The value of the work done by the machines they own (factors of production).

Eventually, all work will be done by machines so if the machines are owned equally then everyone will earn money equally and if the machines are not owned equally then some people will earn more money than others. Either way, no one will be doing any work.

In theory, it is possible to buy a share of the machines now. In practice, when you buy stock, your rights are so limited that the top management takes all the profits for themselves and, on balance, you lose money to inflation. Even the banks only pay about 5% or so which doesn't really keep up with inflation. Unless you loan the money yourself and get in on the 10% loan rates then it's the top management of the banks that are taking all the profits.

That's just how it is and, if you don't like it, you can take it up with the laws of physics.

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (1)

zo1dberg (939135) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316904)

I, for one, welcome...

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (1)

venicebeach (702856) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317030)

I think this shows something slightly different. Not that there is something in our nature which compels us to concentrate our wealth, but that rather it is something of a forced move -- even when our nature inclines us not to arrange our institutions in this way, obstacles arrange themselves such that this choice is compelled.

Re:Heirarchy and human nature (1)

bwy (726112) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317160)

no matter how many times humans start over with a utopian system

That is funny, my idea of a utopian system is where everyone who works gets compensated. I am not a fan of servitude, although our leaders (most recently Clinton and Bush) encourage it. It sounds like what happened with Debian is a perfect example of the system you favor breaking down. It is hard to convince people to work for free (thus taking away time from their family/friends or other interests) but rewarding them with compensation works. I'd much rather explain to my kid that I don't have time to play with him because I'm making money to help put him through college than explain how I'm ignoring him so that that stuff I'm working on can be used by a bunch of strangers who want to use a free OS.

At least at this point our society and leaders only try to strongly convince people to participate in servitude. Eventually, the act of convincing becomes a lot more effective because the barrel of a gun becomes involved.

nope its status anxiety (1)

crabpeople (720852) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317376)

I think its actually a perfect example of status anxiety. People were all happy when they were working (or percieved to be working) for the same wage (free) and a measure of equality. But as soon as some were elevated above the others, anxiety took root. Theres a book and a 2004 documentary film on the concept. It really is a perfect example.

You work for free, or... (1, Redundant)

Ice Wewe (936718) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316390)

"Many unpaid developers simply put off Debian work to work on something else."

Please, correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't the whole point of Open Source to contribute code for the betterment of the community? Which, as it happens, means not getting paid to write code. So, unless these unpaid devs have it in writing, --that they were going to be paid for their work-- I don't think they'll get paid.

Re:You work for free, or... (5, Informative)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316508)

open source is often made by paid developers, including major chunks of the Linux kernel. Open source just means you get the source code to modify or inspect, nothing to do with compensation or lack thereof.

Re:You work for free, or... (2, Insightful)

archen (447353) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316568)

Open Source can mean a lot of things, not just for the community. I'm sure it's not uncommon for someone to improve packages for themselves.

The problem with open source projects such as Debian is that they're volunteer and that people need to have continual interest in it in order for it to survive - with pay developers or no. That may sound like a obvious point, but it seems that more than a few open source projects are stagnating because of waning interest. NetBSD also comes to mind. What happens to Debian will be interesting not only because of Debian itself, but because the "waning interest" scenario will happen to many open source projects in the future that look perfectly healthy today. I guess I'd say it's a point of maturity we haven't really reached before.

Re:You work for free, or... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316614)

In typical Slashdot spirit, you didn't RTFA, did you bonehead?

Re:You work for free, or... (4, Interesting)

DrDitto (962751) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316622)

There comes a point where working on open-source software can no longer be a hobby done in spare time. I would think that lots of open-source coders reach this point. Then either you find a company to pay you (e.g., Redhat), or you stop doing it. Software is getting more and more complex requiring more lines of code and more development. Unless one is rich and is doing it for a hobby, people need to get paid for their 8+ hours of work a day. Can complex software really be done in your spare time?

Ideologically, I support Microsoft rather than Linux because Microsoft allows people like myself to make a living. Granted lots of people do get paid to work all day on an open-source project...companies wouldn't do this unless it gave them a competitive advantage (i.e., Redhat can sell an OS by leveraging the work of others).

Apples and oranges (1)

MarkByers (770551) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317022)

I support Microsoft rather than Linux

Microsoft is a company. Linux is a product. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Do you mean:

I support Microsoft rather than Debian

or

I support Microsoft Windows rather than Linux

or

I support Microsoft rather than the people that donate their time to work on Linux

Whichever way you put it your comment doesn't really make sense and needs more explanation. How does Microsoft help you make a living in a way that Debian can not do?

Is it just that you can make more money selling a product for Windows than a similar product for Linux? Is your ability to make a profit a result of the fact that Microsoft pay their developers, or is it just because Windows currently has more market share? If Windows was open sourced would it hinder you in making a profit?

Please try to make your comment make sense because I am sure that you have an interesting point but I think you forgot to say what it is.

Re:You work for free, or... (4, Insightful)

davek (18465) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317064)

Can complex software really be done in your spare time?
That really is the question, isn't it? If the answer is "no," then it seems like open source software is what the critics say it is: an anomaly created by the birth of the internet, and it will die out like any other fad; leaving established, commercial software as the primary source of usable software technology.

Let me be crystal clear: THIS IS NOT TRUE!!

What is happening is the value of software is shifting. In the future, you won't have to work on open source software "in your spare time." You will be paid to work on open source software by the company you work for, because they have a stake in the software's success. Software is a living thing and must be maintained. If my business directly depends on... say... Asterisk running correctly, then I'd better have at least one OSS hacker who knows the Asterisk source code... get it?

Remember the old mantra: Free Software was never intended to be free-as-in-beer. You still have to pay for it if you want any real commercial use out of it. Companies will slowly realize they don't have to pay a monopolistic empire for all their software needs, but rather can hire their local blue-collar OSS hacker. Only then will the economy make some progress...

-dave

Re:You work for free, or... (5, Insightful)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317010)

"Many unpaid developers simply put off Debian work to work on something else."
Please, correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't the whole point of Open Source to contribute code for the betterment of the community? Which, as it happens, means not getting paid to write code.

Open Source is a development methodology. Free Software is a moral standpoint. Neither one says that you can't get paid. Neither one, in fact, says that you must do anything for the betterment of the community - once the appropriate license is used, EVERYTHING you do with the program that is legal contributes to the betterment of the community.

In fact what you and many other people miss is that no one does something for nothing. Sometimes they do it just because they are addicted to the good feeling that they get when they do something altruistic, but at the base level, they are feeding a stimulus-response pattern in their brain that causes them to want to do that. They are being paid in good feelings.

If I am contributing work for which many people get paid, and then I see that someone else is being paid for work which many others contribute, I may come to the realization that I need to pay my bills and they cannot be paid with good feelings which are unfortunately non-transferable and not considered legal tender for any but the most private of debts, if you know what I mean. Or maybe I'll just turn into a stingy bitch who wants some of that or y'all can fuck off. Either way, the contributions don't get made.

Ultimately, if you're going to have a release schedule and you plan to stick to it, you're going to either have to pay some people, or make sure some people don't need to get paid, which boils down to supporting those people, which is a form of pay even if you don't give them actual money. Otherwise you will have problems because people will have other motivations. This will continue until the cost of living drops so far through technology that people no longer have to work. Then we will have new problems.

This seems odd (1)

Kelson (129150) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316426)

Many other open source projects -- distributions included -- are developed by a mix of full-time paid contributors and unpaid volunteers. And yet they manage to keep things going.

I know Debian is all about the Free, but it seems odd that paying a couple of people would cause problems with volunteers.

Re:This seems odd (2, Insightful)

abradsn (542213) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316778)

Welcome to the land of software development idiocy.

This is where you have a bunch of people on one side of the fence yelling that there is perfectly viable bussiness reasons to adopt open source... and on the other side of the fence you have even more people that wouldn't pay for surgery that could save their own life. (Since practically no one pays for anything open source, no one really makes much money from it.)

Then you get people that start out with open source projects, and then turn the project into a commercial venture... thereby ticking off everyone that helped for free because they wanted a free solution. I speak from experience here. I've been ticked off on occasion, after helping with a project that was then turned into a closed source program and sold as the main product for a company. What's that I hear??? Oh... You should sue... Give me a break. That would cost more money than I would get back, and with that, we've now reached the full circle of stupidity here.

By the way... I'm not angry or bitter about this... It happened a few years ago now. I'm just trying to make a point about the sometimes strange dynamics of large groups of people working on a software project. If you change a couple of minor details then you can easily apply the same kinds of arguments to closed source software too.

Nexus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316432)

Do you get Nexus from disenchanting developers ?

Mod parent funny (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316846)

No one gets the WoW reference? I thought it was somewhat witty.

And... (1)

PHAEDRU5 (213667) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316514)

"Stix nix hix pix" to you!

Debian is my favourite (1)

DaMattster (977781) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316590)

While I primarily use FreeBSD, I have a Debian box to run Scalix Community Edition for email. Of all the Linux distros out there, it is the tightest. I sure hope they get past their current problems and get Etch released.

Straight From Debian Lists (5, Informative)

mpapet (761907) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316602)

This email from October 26 is pretty darn informative when it comes to dunc-tank. http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/10/msg 00260.html [debian.org]

This email from November 16 will pretty much bring everyone up to date on Etch status: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006 /11/msg00004.html [debian.org]
Since its publication, Etch has gone into bug-fixing only.

Nice little bonus for debian users on the end if you read it all the way through.

Please, please /.ers just go straight to http://www.debian.org/News/weekly/ [debian.org] and get the news. I certainly wish the editors at /. would.

Re:Straight From Debian Lists (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316958)

Please, please /.ers just go straight to http://www.debian.org/News/weekly/ [debian.org] and get the news. I certainly wish the editors at /. would.

Right. Just go to the Debian Pravda to get your propa^H^H^H^H^Hnews. I'd rather get my news from somebody less biased than Dunc-Tank supporters.

Was ESR right? (0)

Trogre (513942) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316606)

This sounds worryingly like what ESR predicted might happen if you start paying OSS developers without extreme caution.

It's somewhere in The Cathedral & The Bazaar.

Re:Was ESR right? (2, Interesting)

heroofhyr (777687) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317084)

I think you're talking about this:

If the conventional, closed-source, heavily-managed style of software development is really defended only by a sort of Maginot Line of problems conducive to boredom, then it's going to remain viable in each individual application area for only so long as nobody finds those problems really interesting and nobody else finds any way to route around them. Because the moment there is open-source competition for a `boring' piece of software, customers are going to know that it was finally tackled by someone who chose that problem to solve because of a fascination with the problem itself--which, in software as in other kinds of creative work, is a far more effective motivator than money alone.

and/or this:

Indeed, it seems the prescription for highest software productivity is almost a Zen paradox; if you want the most efficient production, you must give up trying to make programmers produce. Handle their subsistence, give them their heads, and forget about deadlines. To a conventional manager this sounds crazily indulgent and doomed--but it is exactly the recipe with which the open-source culture is now clobbering its competition.

The quotes in themselves aren't fully summing up the idea, but I didn't think it would be wise to cut and paste the whole chapter(s) in this post. The first quote is from the chapter "On Management and the Maginot Line" in tC&tB [catb.org] . The second quote comes from the chapter "Gift Outcompetes Exchange" in Raymond's Homesteading the Noosphere [catb.org] .

Meeting deadlines costs money... (2, Insightful)

bre_dnd (686663) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316658)

... if you're working on an open source project for "fun", being pestered around by a release manager to hurry up might not be as "fun". Most open source developers probably have a day job that's got enough deadlines to meet and managers to please -- so joining an open source project gives some fresh air, not being told what to do and being able to run your own show.

Bringing in managers, paying them, getting people on your back telling you what to do and when to do it, when you were doing this as a "hobby", is a bit erhm -- turning the hobby into a chore. You want a job done, on time, when you want it, sure. Pay for it.

"fire" them (0, Flamebait)

asv108 (141455) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316668)

If the release managers are getting what amounts to insubordination, then find people to replace the protesting developers, and move on. If replacing the people who are insubordinate is impractical, then work out a compromise.

I personally don't see anything wrong with people getting money to spend more time on open source projects. Its not a two tiered system, any Debian developer can throw up a website that solicits donations so they can spend more time working for the greater good.

A group of 17 developers, led by well-known Debian maintainer Joerg Jaspert, issued a position statement in October citing its disenchantment with Dunc-Tank. It read, "This whole affair already hurts Debian more than it can ever achieve. It already made a lot of people who have contributed a huge amount of time and work to Debian reduce their work. People left the project, others are orphaning packages...system administration and security work is reduced, and a lot of otherwise silent maintainers simply put off Debian work (to) work on something else."

The dunc-tank concept is not hurting Debian, its the reaction by a small group of developers that is hurting Debian. Stopping work to protest dunc-tank, is the equivalent of cutting your hand off because of a finger sprain. I already have a hard enough time getting Debian used in enterprise projects because there is no company behind it. Now every time Debian is suggested, someone is going to say "Well what happens when the devs go on strike again?"

This incident is not just hurting Debian, its hurting every fully community based project that could be used in enterprise environments.

Re:"fire" them (2, Insightful)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317062)

This incident is not just hurting Debian, its hurting every fully community based project that could be used in enterprise environments.

Hence the reason why fully community-based projects are not suited for mission-critical applications, unless you are willing to support your own use of it.

Some people are, so that kind of software is fine for them. Others are not, and so it is not. It's just that simple.

Re:"fire" them (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17317076)

The dunc-tank concept is not hurting Debian, its the reaction by a small group of developers that is hurting Debian.

That kinda is the point: If that small group of developers is important enough, then why are these people not getting paid as well? Is your work more important than mine? As long as there is no money involved, the whole thing is mostly a meritocracy, but with money a relatively small committee gets to decide who is going to be paid, and that means many other factors decide on the "importance" of certain tasks. As soon as people get paid, there is an incentive to reach a certain position in the group of developers which is decoupled from the goal of the project. These positions attract manager type personalities, people who have their own gain in mind and see the project as a means to achieve that. But a project cannot exist with just that kind of people. You need developers who do the grunt work and the fact that this equally important work goes unpaid indeed causes the community to split. As a volunteer developer, I don't want to fight to get my rightful share of the money. If I wanted to be in that kind of environment, I'd just work longer hours in my normal job.

Re:"fire" them (1)

n00854180t (866096) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317138)

They shouldn't be paying any managers anything in the first place. If they want paid development work, pay the developers doing the work, not some morons that are just going to annoy the people actually making the product. It's very very little wonder this has pissed people off. It's essentially the same as having a layman (i.e., not someone educated in development in any form) take the "lead developer" position (at 6000% of the normal devs' pay), and then the managers ("lead dev") trying to tell all the devs that they need to work harder. I don't know about anyone else here, but I'd quit immediately if a layman were posted above me at 6000% of my salary, and probably also hurl copious insults.

Re:"fire" them (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17317250)

This incident is not just hurting Debian, its hurting every fully community based project that could be used in enterprise environments.

You can take your "enterprise environment" and shove it up your ass. Corporations who don't appreciate free software can just go back to getting raped by Micro$oft's garbage. The Linux community doesn't need enterprise support; in fact they would be harmed by it. For example, corporations would likely demand DRM, adware/spyware, "Linux Genuine Advantage", Treacherous Computing, and the like. Enterprise Linux is an oxymoron and always has been.

belly ache setting in (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316726)

If development is going to be voluntary in basis, time will come when a major project falls apart due to the conflict of interest between mind workers and their need for basic sustenance. This point is hardly here or there, generally speaking, save in the case of decision makers looking for dependability. If a platform provider has some trouble with implementation, say in the case of Vista, at least the company can fire, hire and re-deploy resources as needed to get the problem solved. There may be a delay, but ultimately it gets done.

In the case of debian, frozen code or no, there is at the very least a perception of massive disaffection and and uncontrollable tail spin that would make any responsible boss leery. How could a person justify moving their outfit to a platform with such fundamental development issues hinting at this sort of disaster?

I can hear the (practical) response of an advocate... "Why is an upgrade important anyway? stick with the old debian until this get sorted out, or try ubuntu or any of the other important distros. heck, switch to red hat if you need to upgrade for some compelling reason. that's the magic of open source! there's always several robust projects being maintained, all of them more or less the same. don't worry your pretty little head over this"

Well, I can tell you, when you are responsible for the sustained functioning of complex business operations, and you are faced with the choice of boring, stable commercial software versus this mad anarchy of unaccountable developers, pinning your hopes on the plan to have them volunteer contributions, the choice is easy: safety first. Switching to some unknown platform may very well work in principle, but when you have 50+ machines running a crucial suite of software, even the smallest changes can turn in to huge headaches with giant price tags. This is true no matter what sort of software you run, but anything that reduces stress around here is gold. knowing that Microsoft has spent billions making sure that backwards compatibility is a priority is a lot more reassuring than knowing that Debian is about to implode because they couldn't pony up a measly $12,000.

Re:belly ache setting in (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17317060)

Grownups at work use Redhat.

Leave the Debian and Gentoo "leet" distros to the college kids and mom's basement dwellers.

12,000$ to kill Linux? (5, Funny)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316786)

OMG! wait till M$ hears this. All they have to do is to donate some 1000$ to a few developers in each Open Source to project, and all other devlopers will quit because they are jelaous and these few will retire happily using those 1000$ or 2000$ handout. All Open Source projects will grind to a halt! Wow! That is Steve Ballmer's dream. He might actually sit on a chair or two now.

Disenchanted... (1)

-kertrats- (718219) | more than 7 years ago | (#17316874)

Did they at least get a Nexus Crystal?

Re:Disenchanted... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17317150)

Fucking lame. How many more WoW nerds are going to post that exact same nerd joke?

Re:Disenchanted... (0, Offtopic)

-kertrats- (718219) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317186)

3.

Disenchanted? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17316886)

Why? Did they ever expect to have a check? I thought the developers where there for their love to Debian and expected nothing but other developers' respect and personal satisfaction out of it.

On the other side, managers...Mmm we know that kind...

They have to eat! (1)

anss123 (985305) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317002)

$6,000 does not sound like a whole lot; hell £6,000 does not sound like a whole lot. Here in the old world $6,000 is bellow minimum wage, way bellow, so with $6,000 they would probably have to live in a tent and do their 'management' from internet cafés.

Re:They have to eat! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17317136)

What is your whisper minimum wage? That's more my speed...

Re:They have to eat! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17317442)

I am not sure what part of the old world you live in, but here in belgium 4500 is pretty damn good.

Release managers worth 6000x more than others? (1, Insightful)

dircha (893383) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317034)

The release managers are not worth 6000 times more than the developers.

Why should the release managers be surprised? Afterall, they were paid money to improve their own work ethic. Are the developers, who are arguably doing more *actual* work, not worth as much as the release managers, or held to a higher standard than the release managers?

If they can't find developers to replace those who have reduced their contributions, and the lack of development contributions is the primary cause of the delay, then very likely the developers ARE worth more than the release managers. So you can suggest they just replace them all you want, but I hope it won't come as a surprise to you that the free labor market isn't exactly full of high quality talent willing to work long hours to come onto an already late project.

Perhaps the release managers should distribute some of their new found resources to developers in exchange for additional contribution.

even MORE alliterated (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17317320)

"Disenchanted Debian Developers Delay Distro"

WIR (5, Informative)

Digana (1018720) | more than 7 years ago | (#17317322)

Debian ships When It's Ready.

But for those of us who are holding our breath for release time, a good and rough indicator of when it will ship is the number of release critical bugs [debian.org] . When the number hits zero, Debian is (almost?) ready. Since the etch freeze was announced about a week ago [debian.org] , the number of release bugs has wavered around 130, with a slight downward trend. This is the stock market of the free software world. :-) The etch freeze means that no packages can move down from unstable (sid) to the current testing (etch) automatically anymore (normally, packages in unstable are automatically moved down to testing by a script if no bugs are filed against them for some time, several days, iirc). Packages can still be moved from unstable to testing, but only manually if it's clear that they are stable enough for the next release.

The dunk-tank drama in the Debian mailing lists [debian.org] is old news. Yes, some developers expressed concerns about the dunc-tank project [dunc-tank.org] , but I would hardly call this "frozen development". Developers are working hard to get the Debian release. I estimate January or February at the latest will be beer and pizza party time for all the Debian developers that have produced the largest binary free GNU/Linux distribution amongst which so many other distros depend [ubuntulinux.com] .

Personally, I'm very excited. I'm not sure how much truth there is in this, but Ubuntu has probably put pressure in Debian to more timely releases, and this release will be much more in time than the previous sarge release was. I've been given permission to install Debian in 20 workstations of our local network, and I'm waiting for the stable release and the renowned Debian quality and security to do so. I'll probably be tracking the next testing release after I install them, though, since testing works well for desktop use and workstations.

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