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Sun Releases First GPLed Java Source

CowboyNeal posted more than 7 years ago | from the beginning-of-an-era dept.

Java 206

An anonymous reader writes "You can now get GPLed JVM sources from Sun. Everyone seemed to be expecting the desktop version (J2SE) but J2ME has been released first. It looks to be buildable for Linux x86, MIPS, and ARM platforms. Sun now calls it 'phoneME.' Enjoy."

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Nobody (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335570)

will ever need more than 640K.

    - Bill Gates

Re:Nobody (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17336350)

oh my god i wet my pennds i swear i wet my pennds lol gpl my black ass

Re:Nobody (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17336616)

cyborg_monkey?

phoneME (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335576)

...as opposed to phoneFE?

Re:phoneME (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17336902)

or even better Phone-E...

hahaha....i kill me!

Too little - too late (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335580)

Marry Xmas all Java'ers

Re:Too little - too late (3, Informative)

bigtomrodney (993427) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335594)

Not for enterprise or OEM Linux. It can now ship out of the box without any legal or community concerns, right on time for the "2007 will be Linux on the Desktop" comments. Isn't this what was wanted all along? finally it happens and everyone criticises it. At least it wasn't CCDL.

Re:Too little - too late (-1, Flamebait)

jimstapleton (999106) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335788)

LOL, as if Linux doesn't already ship with non-OSS installed in many distros.

I'm just glad of this because it means I probably won't have to jump through hoops to get Java working on my BSD machine anymore.

And it makes me think of my favorite irony... GPL prohibits non OSS software to be bundled tightly with GPLed software, but Linux bundles such anyway.

The BSD license says "We don't care as long plagiaries, or ask permission to not plagiaries", but FreeBSD will not put binary stuff in with their distros, and make you download it manually/separately, if it isn't OSS

Re:Too little - too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17336316)

GPL prohibits non OSS software to be bundled tightly with GPLed software

Apart from the fact that you're a troll, I'm replying to a troll, and you're wrong: what the fuck is "bundled tightly" supposed to mean? Redhat wrap the box in duct tape?

Re:Too little - too late (1)

Da_Weasel (458921) | more than 7 years ago | (#17337104)

I always thought that "bundled tightly" was the condition in which your undergarments got lodged in your nether regions and was beyond any degree digital dexterity and grace to extract. The condition of "bundled tightly" requires that the offending garment be removed and completely reapplied to the body.

Brings a whole new meaning... (1, Funny)

baldass_newbie (136609) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335582)

...to "can you hear me now?"

phoneME? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335586)

Whatever happened to 'hopscotch pheromone sidewinder'?

Hello? (-1, Offtopic)

xk0der (1003200) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335616)

....(blah ... blah blah) ... Wrong number! >:)

Happy holidays!

Phone ME? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335640)

Well yeah, phone you too!

Java died years ago (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335642)

Dead languages belong in *BSD. Hey Sun, send your corpse of a language to mortuary@freebsd.org.

Linux is great and all (1, Informative)

agent dero (680753) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335660)

Where's the love for FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD? :)

As for the "from the beginning-of-an-era dept", give me a break. This is nothing more than Sun trying to ensure that Java stays relevant, with the greatest stability of other toolkits, Mono, Qt, GTK, wxWidgets, etc. I don't have to go through hell and back agreeing to page long license agreements trying to get Mono, or Qt installed/bundled with a Linux distro.

Sun, you're a bit late.

Re:Linux is great and all (5, Funny)

EGSonikku (519478) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335688)

Pfft, you've got the source, get to work!

And I also want this running on the Super Nintendo this time tomorrow, *snap *snap

Re:Linux is great and all (3, Interesting)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336742)

And I also want this running on the Super Nintendo this time tomorrow, *snap *snap

To be serious for a moment, I honestly hope that this encourages ports to the Wii, XBox 360, and PS3. Java is an extremely capable game programming language at this point, and could potentially save programmers a great deal of development and debugging time. In fact, the only thing that's been holding developers back from using Java is that it doesn't port to the major consoles. If that were to change...

Re:Linux is great and all (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | more than 7 years ago | (#17337268)

Porting the full Sun Java to the PS3 would be great, but for real development you'd need Sony (or NVidia)'s help getting the OpenGL acceleration working.

I play Wurm Online [wurmonline.com] , a fairly involved persistent online fantasy simulator which runs in Java and JOGL and games like it could easily be made to work on the PS3 with PS3Linux, if the OpenGL acceleration were available.

Re:Linux is great and all (1)

Xymor (943922) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336846)

How about porting to the ps3 so efficiently, that you could run an emulator written in java that could run nintendo 64 games. That would be impressive.

How about the mono crowd develop an interpreter layer, to convert in real-time cli to bytecode, to run .Net apps in the JVM. That would be cool too.

Re:Linux is great and all (1)

bberens (965711) | more than 7 years ago | (#17337134)

Once the jvm is ported to the ps3 or other systems it's not really a stretch. In fact, many developers would love to write console games in java. Remember, the GPU is doing most of the work. The fact that java is slower than C/C++ doesn't mean anything because that's not where the bottleneck is. It's at the GPU. I really hope the JVM comes standard in the next gen consoles. Game development time to market would improve greatly. It would also encourage more small-time gaming companies to produce games.

Re:Linux is great and all (5, Insightful)

IversenX (713302) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335714)

You are really, really, really comparing apples to oranges here.

Mono is comparable, yes.

However, Qt, GTK and wxWidgets are all just GUI toolkits! You still need a programming
language (Pascal, C++, Perl, even Java(!)) to use these. Installation will be easier,
though. I'm personally looking forward to "apt-get install sun-java" or somesuch.

Also, it will soon (when J2SE comes out) be possible to write better integration with existing
apps, such as better (faster, more modern) browser applet plugins. That, I'm looking
forward to.

(Oh, and now that the sources aer GPLed, it should be really easy to make this thing run on *BSD if it doesn't already)

Mono is not compareanble either (4, Insightful)

brunes69 (86786) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335782)

While I applaud the Mono team for all their hard work, it is not comparable to Java. Hell, Microsoft's .Net is not comparable to Java yet. With Java, you have a 10+ year old tried-and-true platform. You have 10+ years worth of class libraries written, most Open Source, that eliminate 50%-75% of your workload when writing any application..

Sure, .Net does some things better than Java, like Windowing. But Mono's Windows.Forms is brand new and hardly what I could call enterprise-ready.

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (5, Funny)

alexhard (778254) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335890)

While I applaud the Mono team for all their hard work, it is not comparable to Java. Hell, Microsoft's .Net is not comparable to Java yet. With Java, you have a 10+ year old tried-and-true platform. You have 10+ years worth of class libraries written, most Open Source, that eliminate 50%-75% of your workload when writing any application..

Sure, .Net does some things better than Java, like Windowing. But Mono's Windows.Forms is brand new and hardly what I could call enterprise-ready.
And You have 10+ years of waiting for java apps to launch!

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (5, Funny)

repruhsent (672799) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336302)

The 90s called; they want their joke back.

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (1, Interesting)

eno2001 (527078) | more than 7 years ago | (#17337036)

Sorry... while I might be in favor of opening Java, it IS very late in the game. And Java apps generally suck ass no matter what platform you run the JRE on. I've had to deal with many java apps that are total shit in terms of quality and performance:

1. HP Commandview SDM (for managing an HP VA7410 array)
2. Cisco ASDM (for managing Cisco firewalls. As of 5.0 they finally got it somewhat right, but it took nearly five years for what I consider a critical app. See my rant below.)
3. Rio Music Manager Lite (for managing the music on my Rio Karma in Linux)

They ALL suck. I mention just those three to illustrate just how broad a sampling of Java applications I've dealt with. The HP Commandview SDM application needed a few HP-UX kernel tweaks in order to perform fairly. Really. Kernel tweaks for a userspace application that SHOULD be part of HP-UX to begin with. Pathetic. I can't even rant about the Cisco ASDM app sufficiently to talk about how much... Let's see, where do I begin?

In the beginning I was handed a Cisco PIX to manage. It was all telnet. Life was good. Then there was an upgrade to the IOS that included a new Java based management tool called ASDM (it was actually called something else at first but I can't remember the name). It was meant to make life "easier". So I tried it. It looked OK. Now I had a GUI to manage the firewall and could potentially do things faster than before at the telnet prompt. Or at least that was the theory. So I had an IP network migration to work on moving one class C network to four class C networks. I couldn't afford downtime. Against my better judgment, our new network person suggested that we just use the GUI to take care of. Halfway through the renumbering the Java app lost it's network connection to the PIX due to exceeding some kind of timeout. That was all she wrote... The config was totally hosed. We lost half of the original config and only had half of the new config. We could restore from our backed up config but we'd lose the entire night's work and have to start over. It had already taken a good six or seven hours to get where we were.

Having had a good deal of experience with the telnet interface and knowing the wonders of X window system's cut and paste I thought that I'd just telnet in and alter the existing rules that way. Wrong answer. To accomadate some new fields that the GUI utility needed, the config format was changed into this horribly broken format that really forces you to use the GUI. The old config format used to contain all pertinent information to a NAT or port fowarding on one or two lines. Now there were multiple lines that gave the IP addresses "friendly" names. bascially labels with ID numbers. And the rules used the ID numbers or friendly names instead of the IPs. The lines that all related to one host or network's configuration were strewn about in the different blocks. So you'd have to find your actual rule, figure out what the ID or names were, see if that matched up to the IP you wanted to edit the rule for, etc... and it you did it wrong, you ended up with duplicate rules in the firewall with only the GUI created one showing up in the GUI and the CLI created one being largely invisible outside of the telnet interface.

So back to the Java GUI. We wound up having to read the old config in a text editor and then poke through even slower than before adding the rules that were now missing. In total we were up and working on this thing for 20 hours straight with downtime for multiple locations that extended four hours into their workday. The reason it was so slow was that the GUI kept crapping out every hour or two and we had to keep picking up slightly behind where we were each time. We saved the configs as we went along but that only shaved off a little time. When waiting for the changes to be applied by the Java GUI we were loathe to just kill the Java app when it took a long time because it gave us no indication as to how far it was in the application of the new rules. And before anyone says that it wasn't Java's fault, that it was very likely the network, we went as far as moving into the server room itself and plugging into the core switch that the PIX interface is plugged into and verified that we had good cables. The plain truth is that it was a crappy Java application.

Commandview SDM... When it works, it's fine. When it doesn't it can be disasterous. I use some of the CLI apps (also Java) to create and delete business copies. This generally works well too. But sometime in the summer of 2006 (during my vacation) I got a call from work saying that the nightly procedures hadn't worked. I checked and sure enough the deletion/creation of business copies (basically a lot like LVM snapshots) was failing with all sorts of odd Java errors. I contacted HP support and they connected me with one person after the next who pointed me down the wrong path. The support folks almost went as far as talking to developers assuming some kind of bug. Then, luckily, this one clueful female support person pointed me in the direction of looking at the HP-UX kernel parameters. This seemed unrelated in any way, but I looked. It turns out that the third-party vendor of the main app we have th HP-UX server for made some kernel parameter changes that were detrimental to Commandview SDM. Why is it that this even matters to a Java app? Why do I need to tweak kernel parameters to support a Java app? I'll tell you why... because Java is a piss poor environment as it stands. The idea was great but the implementation sucks and has sucked for a long time. And don't even get me started on iPlanet (now SunOne) Messaging server and it's Java based GUIs that REALLY perform poorly on an exported X display. The only way to really use them on a headless server is to run an Xvnc server and then make the app think it's running locally. In fact most Java apps tend to barf on remote X connections.

And finally, the Rio Music Manager Lite (RMML) application. I've had a Rio Karma for the past two years and I only use Linux on the desktop at home and at work. So, the only option I had for a while was RMML. I downloaded the latest/final version (as it seems to be a dead app) when I bought the Karma and use it with the latest Java. It seemed to work OK. In fact the one change in Java apps I've seen in the past four years is that they finally perform better but I credit that to the fact that we are all running systems with much more RAM and CPU than in 1999. It worked OK except for... the damn network timeouts it would experience even if the Karma was hooked directly to the machine managing it. And the file transfers to the Karma were DAMN SLOW which I put the blame squarely on Java for. As of this past summer, I started using the Karma support in the Linux kernel + the omfs file system driver + Fuse + lkarmafs (the Fuse userspace filesystem tool) to present my Karma as a folder on my Gnome desktop. One of the things I discovered about the lkarmafs tool is that it can access the Karma via the network as well as the USB port. And... compared to RMML, even via the network file transfers are faster using lkarmafs. So, I don't use RMML anymore nor do I expect to ever again. I don't fault the RMML developer, I fault Java.

So there you have it. My rant on why I HATE Java and avoid it at all costs. And I've only scratched the surface of the crappy Java apps I've had to endure. The only thing I've ever seen Java work OK at is stupid little web applets. Not too useful really.

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (1)

richlv (778496) | more than 7 years ago | (#17337232)

the thing, there is no java fault that most developers are shitty. i also have experienced crappy java apps from lucent/avaya, ibm and other "big brands" - on the other hand, i also have seen very nicely coded software that was like "wow. and this is done in java ?".

on example (that i have used only a couple of times) - azuerus. it's fast, it's responsive (especially for java app ;) ).
then there's tribal trouble - 3d strategy game. yep, that's right, written in java.

i am sure there are many more good examples, so don't judge whole platform bu the worst examples.
of course, i have hopes that opensourcing of java will help it to become more stable, faster and so on :)

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (1, Funny)

jimstapleton (999106) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336044)

Java is hardly what I would call enterprise ready either.

I've gotten better stability and cross-platform operation out of basic .NET/Mono apps than basic Java apps (that I have had to deal with).

You are right, Mono/.Net aren't comparable to Java, they don't suck nearly as hard.

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (5, Informative)

molarmass192 (608071) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336096)

Java is hardly what I would call enterprise ready either.

Man ... that's a +5 Funny if I've ever read one. You obviously don't work in an "enterprise". Take it from someone who does (telco), Java is used in massive deployments where Mono/.Net doesn't even make the faintest blip on the radar. There are production Java apps running with 5-9 uptimes that have been going for years.

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (2, Insightful)

jimstapleton (999106) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336162)

Actually, I do, and I am forced to work with the steaming pile all the time, as it is deployed by many enterprises I've dealt with. Popularity can be because of a good product or good marketing - and I'd blame the latter on Java from most of the software I've dealt with made in Java, including enterprise software.

Actually, the software I administrate is a Java application, it's probably the ONLY Java application I've dealt with that hasn't been a royal piece of shit. Most in house development stuff here seems to be .NET now.

So, just because I'm not you, and don't agree with you, doesn't mean I don't have a clue. Get over yourself.

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (1)

GrueMoon (990213) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336214)

I think it's the steaming pile of bad programmers that you're having problems with, not Java.

> Actually, I do, and I am forced to work with the steaming pile all the time

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (3, Insightful)

samkass (174571) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336244)

A language and toolkit can't compensate for the people who build and maintain the software. Java is easily the best language out there for writing stable, maintainable systems if you use the right tools and know your domain. .NET isn't bad, but IMHO its one big advantage over Java-- the ease with which one can integrate "native" code-- is also a big weakness in potential stability.

.NET and Java in the enterprise (4, Insightful)

jimfrost (58153) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336868)

Frankly speaking, .NET is a Java fork. Right down to the bytecode and up through the class libraries. If you are familiar with JDK 1.1 class libraries you'll find practically everything in them in .NET, usually with only package name and method capitalization changes. .NET added a lot, particularly in terms of XML, SOAP, HTTP, and GUI support, and fixed some seriously stupid stuff in Java like classloaders, but it really is a fork.

It's kind of amusing, when you think about it, that what Sun really got out of their lawsuit against Microsoft for their (really, really minor, especially relative to stuff like what Netscape did) modifications to Java was a pure competitor in .NET.

You mention .NET's ability to easily (I'd say "relatively easily") link to native code as a big detriment, but in many .NET implementations that's not used at all. It's easier to work with disparate code like that through a SOAP or database interface. In practice you see a lot of .NET front-ends to traditional servers via a SOAP integration. You see less of it used as a replacement for traditional MFC code, the kind of thing where such integration would be most useful.

But getting back to the enterprise, .NET's largest problem in terms of enterprise software is not that it's less mature than Java (in many ways I'd say that Microsoft took the good stuff from Java and improved it a lot) but rather that it's locked to Windows. Maybe you haven't noticed, but Windows is not a very good server operating system -- not very reliable, not very fast (except in very specialized situations), certainly not scalable. It's all very well and good that you can drop a couple of hundred boxes in there to scale to huge applications, but when you could run the same application on a single Sun you're really not making a cost-effective choice. (I wish I were making that up, but it is actually pretty typical to be able to replace as many as 100 Windows servers with a midsize Sun or two, and that is true not only of stuff like IIS/ASPX versus Apache/whatever that are differentiated by more than OS but also for directly comparable stuff like databases and ETL). Push Windows hard and it will break, often. It's nuts to put it in critical places (although that is done, a LOT, and people pay the price in ongoing maintenance).

Having said that, .NET is probably the single best GUI implementation framework I've seen yet (although that may be damning it with faint praise), and Windows, at least aside from the malware issue, is a pretty fine desktop. In that domain it shows what Java could have been if Sun had been even remotely competent (rather than giving us stuff like AWT and the Swing abomination). We're going to see a lot of .NET on the desktop because it is pretty much best-of-breed. More power to it.

Java is today, and has been since at least the late '90s, often used in enterprise situations. Whether or not it's appropriate in a lot of those situations is debatable, but it is deeply integrated into the core operations of a lot of companies at this point. Personally I feel that JMS is not very good at its job and J2EE as a whole is a steaming pile of dung designed by people who wouldn't know a good application architecture if it ran over their foot, but Java as a whole and these things in particular are out there and being used by a lot of people -- and at least in some cases doing a good job.

It is certainly possible to build robust, reasonably efficient large-scale Java applications. It is even easier to do that in Java than it is in C++, especially if you avoid some of the more ridiculous parts of J2EE. But that doesn't mean it's easy to build that kind of thing, and as you might expect there are a large number of really awful Java applications out there (just as the majority of large applications built on all the other languages out there are really awful). It is not surprising, therefore, that there are people who think Java sucks for that kind of thing -- because, from what they've seen in practice, many Java-based applications do in fact suck.

Anyone with broad industry experience knows that you could replace "Java" in that last statement with any technology you please, though, so that isn't really a measure of whether or not it's a decent technology for the task. It seems to me that people have been somewhat more effective at building large-scale applications in Java than in its precursors, but admittedly I never did a scientific survey to verify this opinion and maybe it's the result of having gained experience in previous failures that allows more Java applications to succeed.

In summary, I think we're going to see .NET limited in its impact in the enterprise mostly by the fact that Windows isn't very well suited for large-scale tasks; in and of itself .NET is remarkably mature, owing largely to the fact that it started out life as a Java reimplementation. If Microsoft were to deign to support other operating systems they'd have a smash hit in that domain, given that their tools are rather nice (relatively speaking), but it's probably not in their best interests to do so and I don't expect to see it anytime soon. Java will be with us in the enterprise for a good, long time because for the most part it does a decent job at it, or at least a better job at it than many other languages (particularly C++). We can only hope that the upcoming trimming-down of J2EE makes those applications less balky.

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (1)

(A)*(B)!0_- (888552) | more than 7 years ago | (#17337088)

"Actually, the software I administrate is a Java application, it's probably the ONLY Java application I've dealt with that hasn't been a royal piece of shit."
And why is it better than all the others? You make a lot of snide little comments but you don't state any specific problems you see with Java.

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (2, Interesting)

Creepy (93888) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336800)

I'm stuck in the "write once, test everywhere" world of Java. It's amazing how little things slip through the cracks on some platforms. One bug I hit just last week involving focus listeners on a popup window (dialog) was reported against Windows, fixed in Windows and HP-UX, but never tested or fixed on Solaris and Linux until a bug was written against those platforms. You'd think something like that would get heavy testing, but it still slips into production code.

On the plus side, at least java mostly runs on those systems, which is more than I can say about .NET (mono might be available, but I doubt I can convince anyone to use it in a production enterprise environment, even if it were good). We do use .NET on our "Windows initiative," but I'm mostly out of the loop on that one.

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (3, Insightful)

Shaper_pmp (825142) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336176)

"Comparable" != "identical to"

Comparable means you can compare the two things - one might be wonderful and the other total shit, but they exist on the same spectrum.

Apples and oranges are (canonically) not comparable because they're different fruit, so they have different criteria to be fairly judged on.

You can compare a nice apple with, say, a shitty, maggot-ridden one - they both have the same criteria, so comparison is valid.

So, on the basis they're both managed programming environments, both compile to bytecode, both tackle the same kinds of tasks in a similar way, you can compare Mono, .NET and Java.

You might believe one is better than the others, but that doesn't make them incomparable.

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17337164)

Comparable means you can compare the two things - one might be wonderful and the other total shit, but they exist on the same spectrum.

Apples and oranges are (canonically) not comparable because they're different fruit, so they have different criteria to be fairly judged on.

You're just redefining the spectrum however you like. Apples and oranges are both fruit. That's a perfectly valid spectrum of comparison. Would you like a sweet, crunchy fruit or a tart, juicy fruit?

Comparing Mono and .NET is like comparing apples, comparing Java, Mono and .NET is like comparing an orange and two apples. And a car, because this is Slashdot and every analogy needs a car.

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (1)

bytesex (112972) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336676)

10+ years ? Are you one of those people that advertise for java developers - must have 10+ years experience ? Java was still called 'oak' 10+ years ago, and all you could do with it was hack a few native gui widgets together. I know - I was there.

Re:Mono is not compareanble either (1)

PaneerParantha (713034) | more than 7 years ago | (#17337126)

You have 10+ years worth of class libraries written, most Open Source, that eliminate 50%-75% of your workload when writing any application..

If time is the argument you want to advance, then what about COBOL, Fortran and C/C++?

When Java came out they said it's good because it's new and others, especially C++, are bad because they're "legacy." Now Java has become "legacy."

Re:Linux is great and all (1)

rjshields (719665) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335920)

I'm personally looking forward to "apt-get install sun-java" or somesuch.
You can do this already in ubuntu and probably debian. Just enable the multiverse repo and do a "sudo apt-get install sun-java2-jdk". You do have to agree to the license, but it's not really that hard.

Re:Linux is great and all (1)

just_another_sean (919159) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336026)

Yes, in debian you need to add non-free to your list of repositories.

Slightly offtopic, Etch seems to have lost support for OpenMotif. I used to install this and
then the Citrix ICA Client for Linux. Well that doesn't work anymore.

But, installing Sun Java, Apache and the Java ICA Client works quite well. Sure it's a lot of
closed source but Citrix just happens to be one of those "I'd always use Linux if it would just
run..." apps for me at the moment so Sun's Java really helped me in this case.

A couple more months, Etch (or Lenny maybe) should get a nice Free version packaged and ready
and I'll be able to run one less piece of closed software on my system. Virtual RMS will be
so happy! :-)

Re:Linux is great and all (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335720)

You cant compare mono with the sun reference java implementation.

Saying that mono was "open" before java is utter nonsense. Mono is a community effort to create a compatible .net implementation according to the .net spec. Mono is comparable to GCJ and other open source java implementations.

The official microsoft .net implementation isn't opensource, is it ? But official java implementation of sun is.

See the difference ?

Re:Linux is great and all (2, Informative)

bky1701 (979071) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335748)

"Where's the love for FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD?"

Have you actually tried to compile it? I compile for my architecture (64) all the time with things that aren't made to support it. Sometimes I have to make small changes to strings, but it can't be THAT much worse installing on BSD.

Re:Linux is great and all (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335752)

What in gods name are you speaking about? Toolkits, Widgets in comparison to j2me?

Helloooo?! Mcfly?!

The captcha I have to enter is "delrium" which is quite timely as you're obviously experiencing some :-)

Re:Linux is great and all (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335762)

Neither J2SE or J2EE is very strong anymore. Both for desktop apps and for server apps there are many more better alternatives than Java. However, J2ME more or less has a monopoly on embedded devices. You HAVE to use Java if you want to make applications for mobile phones. Making J2ME free software ensures that the situation will stay that way. It also means that all other J2ME JVM implementations except for Sun's one becomes irrelevant. In this move, they have both killed off all Java competitors and ensured that Java will stay relevant for many years (decades?) to come.

Re:Linux is great and all (1)

bsharitt (580506) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335956)

I agree that J2ME is probably one of the brightest spots of Java crown, but I wouldn't count J2EE just yet, though J2SE is probably relegated to web plugin status alongside Flash.

Re:Linux is great and all (1)

bsharitt (580506) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335996)

Holy crap, I left a couple of words out the post, maybe I should put down the egg nog.

Re:Linux is great and all (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335968)

Neither J2SE or J2EE is very strong anymore.
Incorrect information. Java is alive and kicking, despite of what a few scripters would like to think.

Re:Linux is great and all (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17336014)

Sun, you're a bit late.
Fanboys will always be fanboys. Why don't you just say "I like .Net better and that's why I am trying to scare everyone away from Java, so I have a chance"?

Sun did what nobody expected, opensourced its greatest (both in terms of size and of completeness) and industry leading development platform. Now productivity at the grasp of even the most rabid opensource zealot.

Now what? You are going to tell it's "too late"? I will tell you what is going to happen, Mono has just lost any reason to exist and to be used. It will always be an outdated and slow piece of software, always playing catch up with the latest features of .Net and always "almost compatible" with the Windows version.

And if you want to play with it now... MIDPath (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335662)

Looks like this was released back in November with the full Java GPL announcement according to the official announcement [sun.com] .

And people already started hacking it and combining it with all kinds of interesting existing free java projects to product MIDPath [thenesis.org]

Seems the GNU Classpath, Kaffe, GCJ, etc projects really want to Collaborate [wildebeest.org] and work together [wildebeest.org] with Sun according to their latest release notes [gnu.org] . 2007 might be a pretty interesting year for Java and GNU/Linux (and mobile devices!)

Collaborate/Party at Fosdem (1)

mjw_wildebeest (1042728) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335972)

GNU, Sun, Debian, Fedora, etc will have a party (serious collaboration effort) at Fosdem this year. Looks like it will be an interesting event [wildebeest.org] . And Sun is a sponsor this year and will have Simon Phipps from Sun speaking on GPL Java [fosdem.org]

Re:And if you want to play with it now... MIDPath (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335984)

Looks like this was released back in November with the full Java GPL announcement [...]

Looks like the new files were released yesterday.

The previous version was released on the 9th of November. But all files available now are tagged "21_dec_2006", like for example phoneme_feature-mr2-dev-src-b04-21_dec_2006.zip. Just look at the list of files available for download and you will see...

Re:And if you want to play with it now... MIDPath (1)

LarsWestergren (9033) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336046)

Another project which might be fun is this one [pspstart.de] porting J2ME to the PSP. I'd like to see one for Nintendo DS even more, but maybe that is coming. :-)

Re:And if you want to play with it now... MIDPath (3, Interesting)

Chief Camel Breeder (1015017) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336144)

"Seems the GNU Classpath, Kaffe, GCJ, etc projects really want to Collaborate [wildebeest.org] and work together [wildebeest.org] with Sun according to their latest release notes [gnu.org]. 2007 might be a pretty interesting year for Java and GNU/Linux (and mobile devices!)"

If SUN Java is GPL'd, why would anybody carry on with an alternative version? Do they really thing that they can do better than SUN? Usually they do worse.

Kaffe in particular has been a problem for my project because it lacks some of the library classes that are an assumed part of the platform. Kaffe with SUN's libraries would be much better for us. However, I've yet to see evidence that Kaffe with complete libraries would be better than SUN's own JVM.

The only reasons for continuing that I can see (other than inertia and possibly hubris) are (a) to have alternate reference implementations for bug comparisons (is it really worth the effort); (b) in case SUN change their mind and close the source again (unlikely, and one can always fork the last free version); (c) in case SUN discontinue their own Java product. Maintaining their own JVM must cost SUN billions and doesn't generate revenue directly. Could they be planning to cease development?

Re:And if you want to play with it now... MIDPath (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17336484)

Do they really thing that they can do better than SUN? Usually they do worse.

I dunno, I like gcc over Sun's C and C++ compilers. Sun's compilers probably produce faster binaries in the end, but gcc's has better documentation, better integration with gdb and gprof, and can be made to cross-compile. KDE certainly is nicer than NeWS, CDE, and whatever else Sun pushed for their desktop over the years.

Sun does some nice things, sure, but the F/OSS folk have done pretty good too.

Re:And if you want to play with it now... MIDPath (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17336820)

You forgot the most important reason: "Just because".

so how long till... (2, Interesting)

SpaceballsTheUserNam (941138) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335678)

i can install java without adding extra repositories/setup? can i expect this to happen anytime soon with the major distributions?

Re:so how long till... (1)

lanc (762334) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335910)


in ubuntu I'm sure you can find it then pretty soon, maybe next release.
in Debian - well, sure. Until the next release comes out they definitely have time :)

Re:so how long till... (1)

anarxia (651289) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336802)

It's already in the non-free section for Debian in both testing [debian.org] and unstable [debian.org] . So it should be included when etch is released (early next year probably).

What? (2, Funny)

Evil Sheep (26815) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335696)

phoneME? phone MicroEdition? Some kind of really small phone? Perhaps, a...micro phone?

Re:What? (2, Funny)

mangu (126918) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335816)

phone MicroEdition?


No, I believe "ME" stands for "Millennium Edition".

Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (1)

DeadSea (69598) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335728)

Its not responding. Are there really enough slashdotters awake at 7:00 AM (EST) to bring down something from Sun?

Or is it just so large that the two people that are downloading it are now sucking up all the bandwidth?

In any case, anybody have a torrent?

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (4, Insightful)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335756)

Hint: the rest of the world doesnt go on EST. Its not 7am where I am, its halfway through the working day for me - try to think outside your own country, Java usage isnt limited to the US.

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (-1, Troll)

minus_273 (174041) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335838)

yeah but most people who go to slashdot are in the US (see how it says slashdot.org and not slashdot.eu ) and EST is ahead of all other timezones here

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (4, Insightful)

DjReagan (143826) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335914)

And here was me thinking that the domain name would be more relevant to where the server was hosted/run rather than where its users came from.

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (1)

Arielholic (196983) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336520)

And here was me thinking that the domain name would be more relevant to where the server was hosted/run rather than where its users came from.
So it is running on .NET then?

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (2, Informative)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335924)

Based on the fact that theres very rarely a drop off in number of comments being posted while the US is asleep, I dont see how your argument is valid.

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (1)

joshetc (955226) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336318)

I don't see how that is a valid arguement (not saying Slashdot is primarily US based). It is a geek site though, I'd imagine most of us from the US either don't work and are up all night or have IT jobs and are at our place of business / getting ready for work at 7AM EST.

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336656)

Or using Occams Razor - there are as many people outside the US taking part in the Java download as there is within.

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17335938)

yeah but most people who go to slashdot are in the US (see how it says slashdot.org and not slashdot.eu ) and EST is ahead of all other timezones here
I call bullshit.

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (2, Interesting)

Curtman (556920) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335966)

most people who go to slashdot are in the US

Says who? Show me something that says more than 50% of Slashdot visitors are in the U.S. please.
see how it says slashdot.org and not slashdot.eu


And how do you figure .org is exclusive to the U.S. ?

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (1)

lahvak (69490) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336208)

Well, this is "news for nerds". Everybody knows that USA is the only country that has nerds. We European geeks are all really cool and not at all nerdy, and the same goes for geeks from Asia, Africa, Australia, South and Cental America and Canada, and Antarctica. That's why we never read Slashdot... oops!?

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (2, Funny)

Mikelikus (212556) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335766)

You do know there's a whole world that wakes up before 7am EST right?

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (2, Informative)

CortoMaltese (828267) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335800)

There's a whole world of slashdotters very much awake at timezones other than EST, you insensitive clod!

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (1)

Hektor_Troy (262592) | more than 7 years ago | (#17337074)

Now, I realise that I am a rather strange individual, but I tend to be awake when I'm awake, no matter what timezone you make reference to. For instance, if you're in EST, I'm still awake as I write this little post. Same if you're in CET. Or PST. Or GMT+11. Hell, even GMT-11.

But I'm sure you meant something completely different.

Re:Its 7:00 AM and its slashdotted (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17336130)

Java servers

Congratulations to Sun and Thank You. (5, Interesting)

dwalsh (87765) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335896)

Congratulations to the Sun people who have made this a reality.

They are freeing up the crown jewels, and the significance of that fact should not be underestimated. Free as in 'gratis' and free as in 'libre' [wikipedia.org] .

I am not a Sun employee, but I am a Java dev., and I would like to remind people of Sun's contributions to open source over the years. While the press communications of executives have muddied the waters, Sun have done more in the past for open source than a certain "Think Free" company. That company pressed for open sourcing Java and then bitched about the choice of the GPL.

I would love to see the source to Websphere (not the Geronimo 'Websphere' product, but the real deal).

... for laughs if nothing else.

Re:Congratulations to Sun and Thank You. (5, Insightful)

tygerstripes (832644) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335960)

Just wanted to say "hear hear". It took 20 posts before somebody actually had the decency to say Thank-you-this-is-a-good-thing, most of those 20 straying into completely niche related topics. I'm not saying they weren't all relevant or interesting points, but thanks for actually saying thanks.

As far as I'm concerned: the short-term impact of this will be decent as people start getting their teeth into the source (as they have done since November), but the long-term impact will be fucking huge. I don't have a lot of personal experience, but this announcement combined with the fact that so many CS degrees start with OOP by teaching in Java means that people will routinely be encouraged to appreciate the power of FOSS from the start, before they get used to the limitations that its absence imposes.

To reiterate: This-Is-A-Good-Thing.

Re:Congratulations to Sun and Thank You. (3, Funny)

dwalsh (87765) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336024)

-- Subtle recursive jokes in sigs are not funny.
I don't get it. Is there some recursion in your sig? If there is, it is too subtle. It is not funny.

Re:Congratulations to Sun and Thank You. (1)

tygerstripes (832644) | more than 7 years ago | (#17337172)

I'd mod you up, but there's no "Fulfilling" modifier.

Re:Congratulations to Sun and Thank You. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17336382)

Most CS degrees start OOP the proper way ... with C++

Re:Congratulations to Sun and Thank You. (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336746)

It took 20 posts before somebody actually had the decency to say Thank-you-this-is-a-good-thing, most of those 20 straying into completely niche related topics. I'm not saying they weren't all relevant or interesting points, but thanks for actually saying thanks.

I'm waiting until I can actually apt-get install java and have it work before I'm too thankful.

Re:Congratulations to Sun and Thank You. (1)

quiberon2 (986274) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336016)

If you want the source to Websphere, then you either have to apply for a job with IBM, or come up with several billion dollars to buy its freedom.

Either one will work.

Re:Congratulations to Sun and Thank You. (2, Funny)

dwalsh (87765) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336048)


If you want the source to Websphere, then you either have to apply for a job with IBM, or come up with several billion dollars to buy its freedom.

Either one will work.


Negotiable at all? I have a bag of magic beans here. Would they take them?


When you apply for a job with IBM, do they show you the Websphere source? Why?


What is this supposed to do for their recruitment efforts?

Re:Congratulations to Sun and Thank You. (1)

Hawke666 (260367) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336394)


When you apply for a job with IBM, do they show you the Websphere source? Why?
 


What is this supposed to do for their recruitment efforts?

The GP didn't say that applying is all you have to do to get the source to Websphere. But I expect it is a prerequisite.

Re:Congratulations to Sun and Thank You. (1)

Scarblac (122480) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336196)

With Solaris, Java and Open Office, I believe Sun is the biggest contributor to free software now, by far. Thanks Sun!

Something real good I guess! (3, Interesting)

freakxx (987620) | more than 7 years ago | (#17335988)

I dont have much idea of licensing issues associated with JAVA and GPL but I think it is going to change the things drastically. I guess all the difficulties in making JAVA work properly on a system is only because the open-source vendors can't implement JAVA so freely in contrast with other real open-source things like mono... I hope the JAVA will come properly installed on systems from now onwards and one doesn't need to dig around sun's website to download binaries and then follow some tutorial on internet to set the variables appropriately !

phoneME? Not Java? (0)

lousyd (459028) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336002)

PhoneME? This doesn't sound like an open sourcing of Java. It sounds like we get the code to what was Java, but it's now it's own project, and Sun is left free to take the real "Java" anywhere they want to. And since it's "Java" that powers phones, PDAs, applications, and so on, we've lost the advantage. Sun will still be free to keep modifying Java in a different way than the phoneME source, and we're still not gonna know what's powering our cell phone, et al.

The name is important too.

Re:phoneME? Not Java? (0, Flamebait)

jrumney (197329) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336114)

The name is a trademark, and I suppose Sun want to keep it for compliant implementations, as has been the case since they started licensing Java to other companies for implementation. The problem is that a restriction that you cannot change the APIs to make them incompatible with other Java implementations would not be compatible with the GPL, so the only way around this for them is to change the name for what is released under the GPL.

Re:phoneME? Not Java? (3, Informative)

mhall119 (1035984) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336508)

The name is a trademark, and I suppose Sun want to keep it for compliant implementations, as has been the case since they started licensing Java to other companies for implementation. The problem is that a restriction that you cannot change the APIs to make them incompatible with other Java implementations would not be compatible with the GPL, so the only way around this for them is to change the name for what is released under the GPL.
PhoneME is Sun's name for their implementation of the Java ME specification, not a renaming of Java. Glassfish is Sun's name for their implementation of the Java EE specification, which is also being released under the GPL. Sun will use it's trademark rights to the Java brand to ensure that only compatible implementations can call themselves Java, this is not a violation of the GPL. Anybody can fork the GPL'd source, make it incompatible, redistribute it, and call it anything they want except "Java". You will find this is the case with nearly all open-source products.

Quality of the code? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17336038)

I don't have time to look for myself, but what's the overall quality of the code? Is it something that the open source community will actually be able to contribute to?

I mean, when the Mozilla source code was first released, the quality was sub-par. It was outright shitty, actually. That's why they needed to take some time and rewrite large portions of it. I know that Netscape 5 was still under development, but that's no excuse for the poor quality of the code we saw. Java is an actively developed and widely used platform, so I would expect the code quality to be somewhat higher.

Re:Quality of the code? (3, Insightful)

bobaferret (513897) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336228)

The quality of the code varies from source to source. Thus making it sub par. Their documentation is okay, since it's produced from the source code and is shown to the public. Atleast on the .java source. But overall I think their code it crap, but not nearly as bad as Mozilla was. The really irritating thing with the rt.jar source code, which has always been viewable, is that they don't follow their own java formatting conventions. There's going to be a lot of available "Janitorial" positions available once all the code get realeased in March (I think they said march). The only thing that really worries me is the JCP process. Linux works well, because in has a benevolent dictator at the top. Translation, it has a vision/direction. JCP's are commitiees, and that will slow down OS/FOSS development efforts. I imagine/hope that ClassPath will stick around and add features/ be the eqivilent of a development branch. There are things I'd like to see added to that language that would never make it through a commitiee (I just can't spell that word this morning, sorry). But by having a development unstable branch, maybe some of these things can be tried out and proven in the field, then added back into the mainline trunk. The JCP seems to work well, but I'm really curious to see if it can keep up with OS development.

requirements: (4, Informative)

DrSkwid (118965) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336040)

To properly build executables for the Linux/ARM target platform, a Linux/i386 build platform must meet the following requirements:

        * Red Hat Linux distribution version 7.2 - 9.0
        * Java 2 Platform, Standard Edition (J2SE(TM)) Development Kit (JDK(TM)) version 1.4.2
        * GNU Make version 3.79.1 or later
        * GNU Cross Compiler (GCC) 3.4.6 or later
        * Doxygen version 1.4.1
        * Development Kit for the Java Card(TM) Platform 2.2.1

To set up the Linux/i386 build environment, you must do the following things:

        * Acquire Monta Vista Developer Tools
        * Set Linux platform environment variables

Acquiring Monta Vista Developer Tools

To build phoneME Feature software for the Linux/ARM (P2 board) target platform, you must acquire the MontaVista CEE 3.1 ADK developer tools. [mvista.com]

Re:requirements: (4, Insightful)

lisaparratt (752068) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336290)

Welcome to the Real World of Embedded.

Nearly everything is targetted toward Monta Vista, these days. Being fair on them, it's because they were one of the few embedded Linux distributions that managed to put together something with all the neccessary patches to be actually capable of performing well in an embedded scenario.

A new hope ;-) (1)

sid77 (984944) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336164)

Eh, I really hope there will be a linux/powerpc release for java now that's GPLed.

Java for OpenMoko a step closer then (1)

mjrauhal (144713) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336258)

This seems good for the upcoming OpenMoko [openmoko.com] -based ARM smartphone; although the project emphasizes native app development, fact is, there's a lot of mobile Java apps floating around. So once this is ported to OpenEmbedded/Moko, it should boost the platform's usefulness for many users.

So thanks, Sun, for this Christmas present. (Now just waiting for the phone to actually come out... :)

zip instead of tar.gz/tar.bz2 (1)

julie-h (530222) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336370)

... is not a good sign for source code archives for Linux =)

Re:zip instead of tar.gz/tar.bz2 (1)

Laebshade (643478) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336864)

Oh you mean because permissions/ownership properties aren't retained? Ah well, it's still fine.

moOd down (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17336700)

Thank you Sun (5, Insightful)

wikinerd (809585) | more than 7 years ago | (#17336712)

I am very happy that Sun Microsystems [sun.com] open sourced its Java and OpenSolaris products. If I buy my own server hardware, I will certainly prefer Sun. Contrast this with Microsoft, which is known for its Embrace-Extend-and-Extinguish practices, its preference to its own shared source licences for the very few lines of code that they ever made public, their aggressive hiring of some open-source people (why? to silence them with dollars?), and shadowy agreements with GNU/Linux vendors. Sun initially tried to use CDDL, but now took a bold step by adopting GPL and releasing actual, useful, working code under it. This means that Sun has open-minded people in its management.
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