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Vista and the Music Industry

kdawson posted more than 7 years ago | from the locked-down dept.

Windows 438

BanjoBob writes "Vista locks down all the DRM functionality and actually reduces the quality of playback of some media. This includes both audio and video content. As a company creating music and video products, how can we use Vista to create, distribute, and use legal media? I have read nothing to indicate that Vista has a model to allow 'authorized' use without causing problems. Currently we use Windows 2000 and Linux products. If what we understand is true, Vista and future Microsoft products won't be viable options for us since prior to publication, media must be copied multiple times, edited, moved around, re-edited and often modified into various forms (trailers, etc.) before, during, and after production. This naturally includes backups and recovery. If Vista is intent on prohibiting these uses, then Microsoft is intent on keeping their products out of the realm of content creation and editing. How do others deal with these issues?"

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Switch to a Mac (0, Redundant)

suyashs (645036) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420460)

Switch to Macs and use a virtualization solution (Parallels) or Boot Camp to test on Windows systems.

Re:Switch to a Mac (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420546)

duh? how does that help? bootcamp to boot what? vista? thats the whole point retard

Re:Switch to a Mac (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420654)

You don't get how it works. Some mac zealot submits a story attacking Microsoft, then some mac zealot replies by saying "get a mac", regardless of how off-topic it is to say that. Sometimes the first step can be done by an OSS zealot (that I am proud to be), but normally it's a mac zealot.

I think you misunderstand (5, Informative)

dtfinch (661405) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420464)

DRM is a just tool for content producers. Unprotected media should be entirely unaffected by it. I'd be surprised if the quality reduction wasn't an opt-in feature that only applies to protected media where the producer chooses to enable it. I haven't used it, but I doubt Vista can or would try to prevent an app from decoding and displaying an unprotected video in full quality.

Re:I think you misunderstand (4, Insightful)

dtfinch (661405) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420530)

I should add that I switched to Linux in early 2004. I support the right to use DRM like I support the right to commit suicide. If publishers want to cut off their revenue with stupid restrictions then let them.

That's true, but... (3, Interesting)

mrchaotica (681592) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420590)

...if people want to spread anti-DRM FUD, I say we let them! : )

But seriously, you're absolutely correct that Vista won't screw with non-DRM'd media. The flip side of that, though, is that Vista's DRM "support" won't do him any good either. Even though Microsoft has been claiming that the DRM will help producers of content like him, I think it's obvious that it'd be just too damn inconvenient.

Re:I think he doesn't misunderstand (0)

darkonc (47285) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420594)

Unprotected media might be unaffected by Vista DRM, but the only way to find out for sure is to risk your (possibly multi-million dollar) project and see if it turns out OK.

Part of the problem is that when, where and why Vista will degrade your media in transit isn't (and can't be) properly documented. It depends among other things, on security by obscurity. If people understood precisely how the system worked, they might be able to circumvent it ... so if your income depends on the quality of your media not being degraded, you're going to be holding your breath the entire time that you're using Vista. You might get away unscathed, or you might not.

If it only 'rarely' degrades your 'unprotected' media (say 1% of the time) that means that, in a 90 minute video you're going to find 1 minute of degraded video times the number of times that you duplicate or edit your product while using it. -- and if you don't notice that a critical part of your video got squashed in the final downmix before you rushed your (hopefully) award-winning project into the hands of the waiting courier, you're gonna be soooooo unhappy 3 days down the road when you finally recover from the rush and figure out what happened.

That's the worry that Vista's "trusted computing" will create for high-end content producers.

Re:I think he doesn't misunderstand (1)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420706)

"Unprotected media might be unaffected by Vista DRM, but the only way to find out for sure is to risk your (possibly multi-million dollar) project and see if it turns out OK."

You've never heard of pilot project or testing? I imagine you'd only risk some worthless sample and a few hours of your time to find out "if it turns out OK".

Re:I think he doesn't misunderstand (1)

darkonc (47285) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420770)

Have you ever been involved in actual product development? I don't know how many times I've seen people get the final result out the door while the second hand ticks.

Yeah, they may have gone over it dozens or hundreds of times -- these people are often perfectionists. That's why the get the big bucks, but if some unexpected glitch causes Vista to spuriously trash the quality of your product on the final production run, 5 minutes before the courier has to get back to his truck, even catching the glitch might not be enough to save your ass.

And it doesn't have to happen always, either. One mangled video might be all it takes to trash the reputation of an up-and coming company. They'll never have the chance to figure out what hit them.

Re:I think he doesn't misunderstand (1)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420794)

"Have you ever been involved in actual product development?"

Yes, for over 20 years. Since you bring it up, how many years of product development do you have?

"That's why the get the big bucks, but if some unexpected glitch causes Vista to spuriously trash the quality of your product on the final production run, 5 minutes before the courier has to get back to his truck, even catching the glitch might not be enough to save your ass."

Ah, yes, the hypothetical glitch rears it's ugly head once again. The great thing about the HG is that you don't need Vista or any particular OS or system because the glitch always does exactly what the personal proposing it imagines.

daaaaa (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420466)

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Don't listen to the FUD (4, Informative)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420470)

Sounds to me like you've gotten caught up in the anti-Vista FUD machine. There's aren't evil DRM gremlins in Vista that are going to try to screw you over and mess with your media. All the DRM stuff is of no consequence if you don't choose to use it. Old apps run fine, I've used Sony Vegas at work and it works as it always does (well, you have to screw around to get it to install since it checks for .NET 1.1). There's no problem importing and messing with un-DRM'd audio and video.

So you can continue to use DRM free tools to your heart's content. The only time you need to start worrying about it is if you want to release content that's protected using the new DRM. Then you'll need to consider what tools you'll need to get for that, what restrictions it'll place on you, etc.

However you needn't worry about an evil gremlin applying DRM to your files while you sleep. Gutmann is just one of the many out there that dislike MS and are spreading FUD related to Vista. It may indeed be true that the DRM'd media files will suck and be low quality, however if you just don't use them then you'll never have to care.

Re:Don't listen to the FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420656)

Sounds to me like you've gotten caught up in the anti-Vista FUD machine. There's aren't evil DRM gremlins in Vista that are going to try to screw you over and mess with your media. All the DRM stuff is of no consequence if you don't choose to use it.

You are wrong... as usual with this crap. You apologists have no understanding of the toll that the DRM in Vista will take on the system. Just because you CHOOSE (and you do not choose, Windows chooses for you) not to use the DRM features does not mean that they are disabled. For example, your content suffers whether it is unDRMed or not if the driver doesn't like the environment (see "tilt" bits/driver revocation etc). This doesn't even consider the additional costs of DRM on device makers etc... EVEN IF YOU DON'T USE IT. I assume you haven't read the recent skewering of the various DRM features in Vista, or you wouldn't have made such as ass of yourself. Consider the ZUNE, which is Microsoft's favoured model for DRM -- any content is DRM wrapped when it is transmitted via wireless... YOU HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER.

So what were you saying about choice again?

Re:Don't listen to the FUD (2)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420778)

Yes and no.

If a product doesn't support DRM then Vista may not allow it as a valid application (and can in fact remove the ability of applications to run *after* the fact when they are identified as a problem.)

Vista can revoke the rights to your editing software when they find out it allows ripping and the authors don't immediately close the hole.

Re:Don't listen to the FUD (5, Insightful)

Stephen Samuel (106962) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420822)

The problem with Vista isn't that it will mess with your unprotectd media, but rather that it might mess with your unprotected media, and when and why that happens cannot always be that predictable or the DRM features that MS has been touting to the big media producers (and being coy about when talking to consumers) will be too easy to break.

This problem will be especially pronounced for professional content creators because they're going to have a higher than normal probability of needing to (legitimately) work with protected content -- whether it's their own or somebody else's. Again, this is very unlikely to always happen, but it doesn't take that many 'unfortunate coincidences' to turn your average high-strung artist into a paranoid schizophrenic.

News Flash (4, Informative)

jfclavette (961511) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420472)

Media DRM on Vista is optional. If you don't like it, don't use it. No, your mp3s won't degrade. And you can copy them as often as you wish.

If you want to spread FUD, at least don't make up EVERYTHING.

DRM doing what it's supposed to do (1)

PurifyYourMind (776223) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420476)

It sounds like what might happen is the big players (huge music labels, etc.) will just pay MS to expedite their company's files and processes, but companies who actually have to compete, and offer real value to their customers to create an alternative get shafted. I guess it's time to popularize the super open formats with average users so we can sidestep this lock down nonsense.

Just use a Mac... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420480)

As a long time ac hater, I now have one. It works great for these things.

Do you need to upgrade? (2)

Mogster (459037) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420482)

You say you are using Win2k and Linux, however you don't state any reasons as to why you need to move to Vista.
As the old saying goes: If it ain't broke don't fix.

I thought everything was Opt-in ... (2)

figleaf (672550) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420484)

and there is no effect on content which is doesn't require provider authorization.

Is this a new feature?
Vista can playback a music file with reduced quality if you don't have rights to it.
I can find no reference to such a feature on Microsoft site. Please post relevant links.

Previous operating systems completely denied music playback if you didn't have rights.
Its actually super cool if you now actually play non-authorized files, albeit with reduced quality. /.

Re:I thought everything was Opt-in ... (1)

darkonc (47285) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420704)

and there is usually no effect on content which is doesn't require provider authorization.

Unfortunately, there may also be situations in which a driver isn't able to prove that it's got clean media and will, therefore set a 'trouble bit' to indicate that it's 'worried'. This can cause the degradation of the affected media, whether it's properly DRMed or not.

Part of the problem is that secure DRM is going to essentially require that every step in the chain can prove that it's handling the data correctly. According to at least one document, issues of uncertainty are to be resolved by presuming the worst (that someone is attempting to game the system). Under such uncertain conditions, loss of quality is a serious possibility -- whether the data being processed really is protected or not.

A really bad case might be a compressed or encrypted backup data stream causing a media device to think that it's getting 'cracked' DRM media. The device 'degrades' the "media", resulting in the irreversible scrambling of your backup. Something like that may be rare, but it only has to happen once or twice to critical data for a company to get a really sour taste in their mouth.

well (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420488)

Short answer: OS X. Long answer: Linux, assuming "better" support and/or a "blessed" hardware configuration -- perhaps a "digital media" distribution (yeah, it's been done) that's got more emphasis on high-end audio and video interfaces. Note that OS X has/will have "better" DRM "interoperability" since it's a closed enough platform to make the asset holders comfortable.

Re:well (1)

Divebus (860563) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420698)

Short answer: OS X

Amen to that, brother. Working for a place that does high end broadcast television work, most of the company moved from "why use a Mac?" to "why in the hell would anyone use Windows?" All it took was installing a few G5 workstations and within a year, all the Windows zealots were buying their own Macs.

They rib me by saying "you turned me into a Mac head!" and my answer is, "no, all I did was install the tools and you decided that yourself."

Selective degradation? (2, Insightful)

Sparr0 (451780) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420492)

Maybe it is FUD, maybe not. I have not heard or seen conclusive proof either way. The "FUD" in question here is the oft-repeated 'fact' that if you play DRM'd content under Vista over a non-DRM-capable connection, such as VGA, DVI, or SPDIF, then *ALL* content going over that connection will be degraded.

switch to linux (1)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420502)

Linux audio/video support is much better than Windows audio/video support (I'm sure we've all had the frustration of dealing with unsupported hardware). I suggest installing the real-time linux patches to decrease latency.

Re:switch to linux (1)

Mogster (459037) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420510)

Currently we use Windows 2000 and Linux products.

Re:switch to linux (1)

scdeimos (632778) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420608)

Linux audio/video support is much better than Windows audio/video support You've obviously never tried to install drivers for the latest ATI Mobility cards (for notebooks, you've heard of those right?) under Ubuntu so you can crank up xgl.

Re:switch to linux (1)

FlyingSquidStudios (1031284) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420774)

That must be why all of us video professionals work in Linux. Oh no wait, we use Macs.

Re:switch to linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420790)

sorry, typo. What I meant was:

That must be why all of us turd burglars work in Linux. Oh no wait, we use Macs.

Err... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420504)

DRM is opt in. If you own the content, don't opt in and you'll be fine. Honestly, it sounds like you don't really understand what Vista will and won't do.

I don't understand the problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420506)

If you're not using DRM (which is what it sounds like), how would Vista restrict what you're doing? It has a newly-rewritten audio stack for low-latency processing and new video stuff too. I'm pretty sure MS has actually indended Vista for professional multimedia production use.

dom

You Cna't (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420508)

Vista locks down all the DRM functionality and actually reduces the quality of playback of some media. This includes both audio and video content. As a company creating music and video products, how can we use Vista to create, distribute, and use legal media? I

The fact of the matter is; you can't!

The decisions made about where and when that content may be degraded is not yours, but Vista's. How can you possibly create any creative work and be guarenteed that it is yours and not Vista's? Once they deceide to downgrade your resolution, how can you gaurantee that they won't edit your content, as well? Whatever it is, you can guarantee that it is not your vision, but Microsoft's , that is displayed!

Fuck 'em; just fuck 'em!

Re:You Cna't (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420542)

Not that I ever expected this post to be visible; I nnever expected it to be modded into oblivion on the get-go.

Shame on you, /. You have obviously caved to the M$ machine. Nothing will ever see the light of day that doesn't praise M$ in some way!

Re:You Cna't (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420604)

Microsoft may be treacherous and lacking all morality, and cheap on development and testing, but they're not stupid. DRM is opt-in, specified by the media file.

Re:You Cna't (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420788)

...but they're not stupid. DRM is opt-in, specified by the media file.

Oh, is it?

http://www.medialoper.com/hot-topics/music/zunes-b ig-innovation-viral-drm/ [medialoper.com]

They have already made their decision! They know better than you what should be protected and what shoudln't!

Be an asshole on your own time!

Re: Vista and the Music Industry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420512)

It appears that Vista only perform quality reductions for premium ("protected", or DRM-ed) contents played on certain (primarily analog, "unprotected" devices) devices. Users can create their own contents (record sounds, take photographs, record home videos, etc.) without any quality reduction whatsoever.

Re: Vista and the Music Industry (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420582)

...It appears that Vista only perform quality reductions for premium ("protected", or DRM-ed) contents played on certain (primarily analog, "unprotected" devices) devices. Users can create their own contents (record sounds, take photographs, record home videos, etc.) without any quality reduction whatsoever.

and the problem is that, to insure that no piracy happens, all content will be assumed to be premium very soon. Even if not, how about "fair use rights"? Those rights where we can take existing "premium" content and perform mods on it to make satire, etc to mock it? Gee, that is "de-facto" prohibited, ain't it?

The point is, it is not under your control at all, anymore. It is under Microsfot's control. And we all trust Microsoft, don't we? After all, they have proven themselves so trustwothry in the past, haven't they?

Simple (1)

Rendo (918276) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420514)

Don't use M$ products if you can afford to. Don't support them and voice your opinions to others in your field. Perhaps enough noise will grab the attention of the PR department and get it changed in the future.

I personally would avoid anything M$ related and find other ways to get your work done, even if it means paying a premium for a MAC.

Wow... (1)

Rosonowski (250492) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420522)

Do people really care that little about this article, or is this place that dead? I was half-considering going for the "frosty piss", but damn. This is just sad.

Anyway, is Vista so locked down that you can't have ANY non-DRM'd files? Sounds a bit weird to me...

Re:Wow... (1)

darkonc (47285) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420646)

No. You can have unprotected files, but there are certain conditions under which Vista (and it's drivers) will "magically" downgrade the quality of any media going across certain paths. Mostly, it should only occur if you're trying to use protected media under 'improper conditions', but sometimes it can occur if the system just thinks that 'something may be wrong'.

That something wrong might be you trying to tamper with the DRM system, or it might just be because a capacitor someplace got too warm and went out of spec.

Possible worst-case scenarios are: your business partner sends you a video clip in the email, not knowing that it's DRMed. You open the email while waiting for the final render of your $.5M video clip, and the presence of the 'unauthorized media' causes Vista to degrade the quality of the render for 30 seconds. If you're lucky and catch the problem, your QC people may spend hours unsuccessfully trying to track down the source of the problem.

More ominously, the installation of a new piece of equipment next door (say, an X-Ray machine) might cause a finicky board to sporadically set the 'trouble bit' and cause degradation whenever the new equipment is running. It could take you months to figure out why supposedly perfect renders go south at random times. .... and everybody involved in the creation of the errant drivers or hardware will point to the EULA that tells you to expect these things to happen from time to time.

Obligatory (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420528)

I for one welcome our DRM overlords.

Time to change platforms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420532)

Well, duh! If a Microsoft platform won't work for your needs, move to something that will. The Mac is particularly strong for content creation, editing, and management so I'd look at that first. A few nice shiny Mac Pro's (which can run Linux and Windows if they must) would be a great addition to your workflow :)

Ummm.. Obvious? (1)

weasello (881450) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420536)

Vista restricts playback of *some* media. Media flagged as DRM controlled, in whatever internal fashion that is.

For those businesses or persons wanting to use it as an industry app, it's easy - just use the raw files your obtained from your source. Because in my industry, I get those files all the time, and if you aren't they have some 'splainin' to do.

1st Post 2007!!! (1)

Fallen Kell (165468) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420540)

WOOHOOO...

Now that said. How do we know it will reduce quality of works created on the system itself? From my understanding, unless the media files themselves have a form of DRM on them, they won't be treated any differently then any other normal file. If you create it yourself as it seems that you would be if you are a marketing/promotion firm, then the protection is whatever you decide the protection will be. Just like in Linux/Unix, if you give it world read/write, well then anyone can read it and modify it. If you lock it down, well, then it is locked down.

Alternates (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420544)

I'll show my stupidity here. I thought most of the A/V industry used other hardware/software like Mac. Of course, I could well be wrong in that thought.

Re:Alternates (0, Flamebait)

Divebus (860563) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420722)

I thought most of the A/V industry used other hardware/software like Mac.

No, only meaningful work with competent creatives is done on Macs.

First Post of the new year!!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420556)

First Post of the new year!!!!

Huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420560)

Last time I checked (just now) Vista didn't do anything of the sort to my files.

Weird.

you fucking linux zealots (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420562)

jews did wtc nevah forget

how long is longcat?

Hasta la vista who? (1)

polemistes (739905) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420564)

Good programs for content creation are: Ardour, Rosegarden, Kino, Cinelerra, Avidemux etc.
To use them, you should install Gnome/ gtk / KDE / QT / xorg / GNU / Linux etc.
This is old news. Why are people still talking about this Vista thing?

This FUD is all bad taste, it's like saying about a still born child:
He'd have become a villain if he'd ever grown up.

Simple... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420570)

...Don't use Vista.

that link is misleading (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420572)

Vista doesn't force DRM onto all media, it just provides a "protected" path for media that does have DRM present. If you are a studio, you aren't going to have DRM on raw video and sound feed. It's not going to affect you until you DRM the content for distribution, if you choose to do so.

Sweet (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420574)

My big raging cock awaits all of your silly little OSS mouths.

Don't be idiots. You always have the option for whatever encoding technology you wish to use for the end product.

You could use Bias Peak, ProTools or Audition for all I care. And all of those products have a footprint in whatever camp you want.

As a studio (albiet, small studio) owner, you can do whatever you want with whatever camp you choose.

By the way....

Happy new year.

Suck it up waffle mouths.

FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420578)

What kinda crap is that? Vista won't prevent any normal editing or duplication of non-drm wave files. I think the editors are drunk.

Re:FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420640)

Yeah, right!

Just like Zune will permit sharing of non-drm files for more than 3 days or 3 plays. They just don't care about user's rights! Only ??AA's rights!

First Post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420584)

These are very scary times in the computer industry. I can see my rights and freedoms being sucked away by corporation. I'm glad I use OSS, especially Linux. But, if this [auckland.ac.nz] is true then it doesn't really mater what you run, everyone will suffer.

It doesnt work that way (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420586)

If I'm correct the reduction in quality ONLY happens if there is some premium (DRMed) content playing at that time.

Re:It doesnt work that way (3, Interesting)

ewhac (5844) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420776)

...the reduction in quality ONLY happens if there is some premium (DRMed) content playing at that time.

Since Vista's desktop sound effects are all supposed to be copy-protected (read: defective), doesn't that mean that Vista is always running in degraded mode?

Schwab

Come on now (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420588)

Someone must have something to say

With all this DRM hardware proposed (1)

nurhussein (864532) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420592)

What of us who use Linux and don't have our OS implement any DRM against the will of the user whatsoever? What's preventing us from doing whatever we like even with "protected" media files (once the system is cracked)?

Re:With all this DRM hardware proposed (1)

darkonc (47285) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420742)

You mean besides the law?

In theory, once the DRM is cracked, either Linux or Windows should be able to do whatever they want with it, but the DMCA says that you'll be looking over your shoulder a lot if you're intending to put the results of that crack out in public view.

DRM will mostly just prevent honest people from doing dishonest things -- unfortunately, those aren't the kind of people that you have to worry about most.

There 'always' have been, and probably ever will be professional pirates who will break DRM in ways that Microsoft's '(un)trustable computing' will never catch. I still remember the friend of mine who, in 1982 had a cracked copy of a 'heavily protected' game, 2 weeks before it was even released.
Oh yeah, DRM's gonna stop him, today ..... Yep. Yep. yep.

number1 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420598)

number1

Simple... (0, Redundant)

Shashvat (676991) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420602)

Get a Mac.

Re:Simple... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420828)

I have never had a positive experience with a mac. Ive used them (or tried to) on several occasions & they have always ended up with me giving up & looking for a PC.

There were the macs in high school with the mysterious buttonless floppy drives. Every desk had a drawer full of paper clips so you could fish out your disk after the damn thing crashed.

There was the time in college where I had an English professor who was a mac zealot & always led us to the mac lab. I dont think they ever did get that printer to work with appletalk. I ended up emailing my stuff to myself so I could print it later in the PC lab. Most of the rest of the class ended up saving to floppy so the prof could print it on her own mac at home, or typing their papers up all over again.

There was the client who needed their documents transferred over to their new mac. You would think there would be some way to make old macs communicate with new ones, and maybe there is... I ended up yanking the HDD out (no simple task in itself) putting it into a PC with SCSI card, then burning them to CD with a little help from some odd (and expensive) conversion software.

Then there was the co-worker who let me (try) to use their macbook to look something up on the web, i dug around in that insane gui for awhile, widgets here, popup toolbars there, trying to find safari, firefox, opera, IE, anything that would get me on the web, whats wrong with a simple desktop icon? It sure was pretty, but damn impossible to get anything done.

When i want to get something done I look for a PC because it just freakin works. You click on something & it works, if you need to do something else with it, right click on it. The GUI does what you need it to & nothing else. Mac people like to brag about their lack of viruses, who needs a virus when the OS itself constantly gets in your way.

When macs start running windows ill think about getting one, until then its just a really expensive headache with a pretty gui.

Format (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420610)

I guess in the software you use, you can still choose the format you which to save to.
So you choose to save to a format that does not support DRM.

This article sounds like FUD. It's not like Vista will put DRM on everything you make.

Duh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420612)

Vista is not going to suddenly reach out and use DRM on a file that's not flagged for DRM. If you don't want to use DRM, don't enable it on your authoring software for whatever you're working on.

This is a no brainer.

Omg (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420616)

First of the New Year?

How long... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420628)

How long could we maintain, I wondered. How long before one of us starts raving and jabbering on this forum? This same lonely desert was the last known home of the Manson family.

Would they make that grim connection when my attorney starts screaming about bats and huge manta rays coming down on the car?

If so - well, we'll just have to cut their heads off and bury them somewhere. Because it goes without saying that we can't turn them loose. They'd report us at once to some kind of outback Nazi law enforcement agency, and they'll run us down like dogs...

Jesus! Did I type that?

Or just think it? Was I typing? Did they hear me?

MS Response (1)

xrayspx (13127) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420630)

"Holy crap, good point" -- S. Balmer

Don't musicians use macs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420632)

I thought "creative workers" (artists, musicians, etc) used macs. I guess now is a good time to switch.

Re:Don't musicians use macs? (5, Insightful)

Divebus (860563) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420760)

All our high end graphics and compositing moved to Macs from Windows a few years ago and 98% of our daily problems went away. Now, when the artists hear about other people's problems with Windows environments, they consider it an odd duck operating system from Mars. Guess what... it is now. Once you get over the relatively small orientation hump on the Mac, you'll wonder why you wasted your time screwing with Windows for so long.

Re:Don't musicians use macs? (1)

MrWGW (964175) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420800)

I run a design firm primarily using XP boxes, as I prefer to have a choice when it comes to what hardware I run my business on. With OS X I'm forced into only using Apple hardware, which imposes unacceptable limitations (no 8-12" laptops, no tablet PCs, very expensive workstations, limited parts availibility, et cetera). Windows can be a pain, but the added freedom and broader software library I get with it makes it worthwhile. I'm sure that the musicians asking us in this thread feel the same way. The really annoying thing about Vista in this context is that it now forces us to choose between a locked hardware/software platform (by a company that is not exactly known for stellar support of legacy products), an OS that has an infuriating amount of use restrictions and DRM, and then Linux/BSD/etc, which are great operating systems that are sadly not supported by the majority of commercial software firms, forcing the use of open-source alternatives that are quite frequently inferior to their closed-source breathren. I see myself slowly migrating my firm to Linux as the applications improve, while continuing to use XP for running things that won't work in Linux/WINE/et cetera.

The uninitiated get burned (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420634)

Very obviously, content won't be protected until the final masters are rolled, and of course content producers will be using their own tool suites that don't downsample or resize video or any of that nonsense. What will happen, is John Q. Sixpack will get burned when he tries to send some photos to his sister in Phoenix, or perhaps is unable to copy a CD/DVD for their buddies. Probably what will happen is protected *.wm* files will get downsampled/resized and all the wonderful content on Bittorrent will remain in its 640x480, 44.1 khz glory. I can't say I feel sorry for ppl, thats why they get for using MS's codecs and purchasing from MS stores. So honest ppl get punished while ppl like me who are a part of the problem won't even notice. People might even notice and tie up MS's call centers wondering why their new computer does less than their old one, but I won't hold my breath for that.

          Now the performance issue, if its bad(and its probably REALLY bad based on all the DRM support in Vista) is totally unacceptable. I can imagine trying to play a Hi def video(Full hi def, none of this 940 x 544 BS that noobs call Hi def) in a modern codec, say H.264 ;), and just experiencing stuttering because the CPU is locked up trying to stop you from copying WMA files. Or trying to game on it and having the game stutter when there is too much physics voodoo going on. Fun for the whole family...

WTF (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420636)

How long does it take for a post to show up?

Beyond Ultimate? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420642)

Perhaps somewhere beyond Vista Ultimate for $399, Microsoft is readying a $1000 Vista Functional edition.

fp 2k7 (1)

Angry Black Man (533969) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420650)

!first post of 2007

What's the need? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420668)

If Vista doesn't work for you and you can do what you need to do with your current setup, then why "upgrade" (really downgrade) in the first place?

In a word, you can't. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420670)

The hardware will be built such that if you play or have DRM'd content anywhere on the computer, it will automatically reduce the quality of everything you happen to be doing. Microsoft says this won't get in the way. The rest of us know better.

You think music exeuitives are the only ones that are going to have issues? Try webmasters and digital artists. Many of them work off of machines purchased at the local store, and when their customers start saying "hey, everything you're putting out looks fuzzy, we're going with this other client", guess who loses money and starts going crazy when all the data they ported over mysteriously prints out funny. Try game makers; like your textures appearing fuzzy and not crisp? How about testing them in a game when the computer is purposfully fuzzifying any image that comes out, keeping you from doing vital visual tests?

How about pornographers, who in one word, rely on photoshop and video editing to keep their very compeditive business alive.

The only possible way of actually working around digital rights enslavement is likely going to be to, well, use your own DRM on your own products during production as a way to stop the DRM subsystem from screwing everything up,

The fact of the matter is simply, people are more empowered than ever and they are failing to realize that I, you, and everyone else won't put up with this shenanigans. Bill Gates built his monopoly through providing a product which any idiot could use, illegally forcing it to become a world standard, then kept that standard going while providing just enough to keep us happy over the years. In the future, microsoft knows that they can no longer compete. It'll make sense, all of a sudden, to dell to produce their own version of linux or make their machine mac-os complaint and sell it and when competition sets in, microsoft _will_ be crushed under it's own weight. Microsoft spends about 20% of it's budget on OS and assorted application developement; the rest goes to projects such as the XBox that would've failed miserably years ago and have, in truth, never turned much of a profit. When all of a sudden, that income gets cut by say, 10%, or 20%, what do you guys think is going to happen? The warchest is something like 50 billion, sure; they can hold out for awhile and make a few more Beefed up Os's, but eventually they're going to divest and likely dump NT and start over from scratch. They aren't going away, but the MS monopoly is going to fall soon.

Incorrect (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420672)

What you understand isn't true. Vista only does this to DRMed files. Unless you are in the habit of putting restrictive DRM on your raw/source material, you won't have any problems. And as to why you're using materials DRMed by someone else, that's another issue entirely.

In fact, the way the description is worded, it's clearly intended to be flamebait and spread FUD about MS.

Hang on... (3, Insightful)

AmiMoJo (196126) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420678)

This is tagged "fud", and yet has still been posted to the front page... It is obviously a troll post. Any reasonable person could easily discover that Vista only implements DRM for DRM protected media, not for every random file you create.

Editors, please... edit?

We..... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420680)

Don't use vista whatsoever. Every great empire has a tragic ending. Microsoft's fate is coming soon.

I think your overreacting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420682)

Vista only degrades protected HD media. If you are making your own media you should have no problems.

Could it be? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420686)

Eff Pee?

This has got to be... (1)

Rendus (2430) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420702)

The dumbest, most misguided argument ever.

There's no DRM in your .wav. There's no DRM in your .mp3. There's no DRM in the CD you burned. There's no DRM in anything that you didn't buy from a DRM-using source. There's no DRM in anything you didn't yourself digitally lock down. There's no DRM in the way to lock you out of content you yourself created, unless you're such a fucking moron that you're going to DRM yourself out of your own content.

But.. You are dumb enough to ask this question. It is entirely possible you are dumb enough to choose to store all your content, that you yourself created, in signed, encrypted, restricted use Windows Media 10 files.

Re:This has got to be... (2, Informative)

ewhac (5844) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420802)

There's no DRM in your .wav. There's no DRM in your .mp3. There's no DRM...

You haven't been paying attention.

When you "squirt" a song from a Zune, the recipient is only allowed to play it three times, whether the song is Defective Recorded Media (DRM) or a plain, unencumbered MP3.

Prove that this defect in the Zune will not be "back-ported" to Vista. (Answer: You can't.)

Vista is untrustworthy. Install and use at your own risk.

Schwab

why upgrade? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420710)

"How do others deal with these issues?"

By sticking with XP. I have yet to see any compelling reasons to upgrade.

how can media companies use Vista? (5, Funny)

Weirsbaski (585954) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420712)

As a company creating music and video products, how can we use Vista to create, distribute, and use legal media?

You could always buy the development version of Vista. I believe the working code-name was "OSX Tiger".

Re:how can media companies use Vista? (1)

edwardpickman (965122) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420758)

I hear the version after Vista is code named Leopard.

a monkey is not you (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420716)

weeeeeeeeee~ a poo o' both ye houses! D:

Don't Use Vista (3, Insightful)

AC5398 (651967) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420728)

If Windows Vista and its DRM can harm your business, don't use them as your OS. Use MACs, or try Linux. Or go with an old version of Windows - XP or ME if you can't get over the Windows addiction.

How could anyone own their own content? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420730)

Let alone need to edit it!!

I think its not a good idea... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420732)

I think Vista will make every legal production methods much harder. so it would be best to just stay away from it..

Slashdot is fucked (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420738)

I've submitted two comments already and nothing has showed up. I guess thats what your media will be like.

Inverse of the slashdot effect.

stating the obvious (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420750)

Acquire your source video in a non-drm format.

Er, duh. GET A MAC. (2, Insightful)

seebs (15766) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420768)

"How do others deal with these issues?"

They use a mac for their production work.

Duh.

p.s.: Dear lameness filter: I know it is like yelling, THAT'S WHY THAT WAS IN ALL CAPS.

drunk (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420772)

If I want to post drunk or a little tipsy you show the post. None of this hidden bull shit.

Slashdot requires you to wait between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.

It's been 15 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment

Am I... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420792)

the only loser with nothing to do new year's eve? This page's been blank for an hour! Come on you slashdotters, I'm disappointed.

Get a Mac? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17420796)

I'm neither a Jobs fanboi nor a creative professional, but really -- isn't it worth the built-in Apple tax to know that your content - your professional face to the world - is not being adulterated in ways that you're maybe not aware of after reviewing something you're editing, bleary-eyed and facing a deadline, for the 500th time?

Do you even want to spend five minutes contemplating such questions?

It's gotta be worth the added expense just to not have your peers able to eyeball or hear your stuff and immediately know you're a lightweight, using TinkerToys for something you have to live in. MS doesn't care about the pro market, so spend your time developing an exit strategy and considering the most important questions you really have to consider in building a toolbox.

First Post (1, Offtopic)

phalse phace (454635) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420798)

I have no life.

ASIO drivers? (1)

PhilDEE (1016409) | more than 7 years ago | (#17420820)

Don't audio producers use ASIO to bypass what Windows does with audio? I'm not sure on the specifics of the new Vista driver model, but surely the equivalent to XP's KMixer can be bypassed.
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