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A Sneak Preview of KDE 4

CowboyNeal posted more than 7 years ago | from the pretty-gooey dept.

KDE 350

An anonymous reader writes "In recent times, a lot of discussion has been generated about the state of KDE version 4.0 and as Linux users we are ever inquisitive about what the final user experience is going to be. This article throws light on some of the features that we can look forward to when KDE 4.0 is finally released some time this year. The article indicates that the most exciting fact about KDE 4.0 is going to be that it is developed using the Qt 4.0 library. This is significant because Qt 4.0 is released under a GPL license even for non-Unix platforms. So this clears the ideological path for KDE 4.0 to be ported to Windows and other non-Unix/X11 platforms."

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Memory (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471246)

"For instance, Qt 4 is designed to save lots of memory and will perform faster."

They need to work more on that cause thats the reason why I'm not using KDE. I like the UI but KDE is just to bloated so I use Gnome instead, even though I hate most of Gnome's UI.

Re:Memory (5, Informative)

Frekko (749706) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471302)

This http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmar k.html [kde.org] article from 2006 shows you how much memory Gnome/KDE use. Even though it is written by a KDE member I can't see why he should have messed with the numbers. As you can see KDE actually uses a bit less (not much though) memory than Gnome.

Re:Memory (0)

BigZee (769371) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471448)

Call me a cynic but as anyone other than a KDE user, I can.

Enough of the waffle (1)

Epeeist (2682) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471544)

Show us the numbers.

Let's see your results for the same scenarios or, if you don't think his scenarios reflect usage, some other typical usage patterns.

Re:Memory (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471558)

I'm not calling you a cynic, I'm calling you ignorant and prejudiced. IF you'd actually used KDE, and ONLY KDE, you'd know you can have a full *basic* KDE session running in ~ 75 MB ram. (No user data loaded obviously.) Just stop believing the FUD.

Re:Memory (5, Informative)

jcupitt65 (68879) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471796)

Here's an update written by a GNOME person:

http://spooky-possum.org/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/kde vsgnome.html [spooky-possum.org]

tldr: they have (essentially) the same memory requirements.

Re:Memory (1, Troll)

diegocgteleline.es (653730) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471982)

So wait - all this hard work that the gnome guys did during the last year to improve gnome resource usage only was able to bring it at the SAME level than KDE?

Unimpressed...KDE 3.X is in a "mainteinance" state because most of the KDE guys are working in KDE4, still gnome only was able to "catch up". And one of the reasons to use C instead of C++ (besides the "easier to make bindings" reason) wasn't that C++ was more "heavyweight"?

great (2, Insightful)

mrsev (664367) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471254)

Ooooh... Kreversi, KMajhong.... both essential components of my desktop experience. The article is a little thin to say the least.

Re:great (1)

PatrickThomson (712694) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471346)

As a 6 month gnome user and semi-power user who's recently switched to KDE, I can actually say that the desktop games are about the only thing that I feel was superior. Probably reflects the way that gnome is going, I suppose.

I'm not picking sides, it's just that KDE is genuinely better *for me*. I'd of course stick parents, mac converts, etc on gnome in an instant. And I won't recommend what I don't use, so I guess I'll be spending half and half from now on...

Re:great (1)

noigmn (929935) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471384)

KDE games run in Gnome, you know?

Re:great (1)

noigmn (929935) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471402)

oops...if you meant Gnome games were better, same deal applies.

Re:great (1)

PatrickThomson (712694) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471862)

Got it in one. I know they do, but they load slower :(. Anyway, point is I'm in the KDE user demo, so I *don't* play toy desktop games very often. I'm usually wine-ing up steam or deus ex or firing up UT2K4, you know?

Re:great (1)

ctzan (908029) | more than 7 years ago | (#17472012)

yes, iagno.

and neither the kde nor the gnome drones were able to write a decent tetris clone,
that does drop & shift, like the original Pazhitnov's.
or a terminal emulator (just try kterm, gnome-terminal and xterm on a remote X11
session, through a ssh channel).

kde/gnome are good for presentations - to show that 'linux' is 'like windows'.

they're unix tools in fact - they do one thing well (look like Windows), and JUST that.

Re:great (1)

noigmn (929935) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471362)

I'd have to agree (even if sarcasm :)). They are far more preferable time wasters than the Microsoft games. And they have quite good AI players which is the important part. Nothing is more frustrating than owning the AI after a few games and finding there is no more challenging setting. I played reversi on the last aeroplane I was on and the AI was bad enough that the only fun way to play it was try to win outright by running the AI player out of pieces. In linux from memory I think beating the hardest level of AI borders on impossible.

Re:great (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471498)

I guess you've never heard of "proof of concept" or even had the thought that you'll see simple applications ported first rather than the complicated ones crossing your mind.. Duh.

What is thin about it? (4, Insightful)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 7 years ago | (#17472074)

It shows some graphical pics of games that have been converted to SVG (nice to say the least). Then in the article, it talks about the various projects that are working on core libs. Once those are fleshed out, then more apps will come into focus. I would say that this is actually a pretty good preview of very unsettled work. As to the desktop, well, there will be more.

Performance (4, Interesting)

bcmm (768152) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471288)

It should also be pointed out that the port to QT is expected to very noticeably improve performance.

When was the last time a new version of Microsoft Windows came out with a faster user interface?

Re:Performance (5, Funny)

eclectro (227083) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471298)

When was the last time a new version of Microsoft Windows came out with a faster user interface?

When you bought the new computer?

Regedit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471630)

Go to HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Desktop and change MenuShowDelay to a lower number
Now, it seems so fast! ;)

Re:Performance (0, Redundant)

jackharrer (972403) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471304)

When I upgraded my computer from Pentium I to Pentium III. I was noticeably faster.

Re:Performance (2, Informative)

urbanradar (1001140) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471308)

It should also be pointed out that the port to QT is expected to very noticeably improve performance.

Maybe it's a typo, but just to clarify: KDE is already based on QT. It's just that KDE 4 will be using QT 4, whereas the current KDE uses QT 3.

Re:Performance (1)

bcmm (768152) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471348)

Heh. You beat me to it.

Re:Performance (1)

bcmm (768152) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471320)

Sorry for typo. Obviously, I meant the port to Qt 4.0.

Re:Performance (1)

richlv (778496) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471714)

obviously, you meant port to qt 4.2 :)
summary is wrong.

Re:Performance (2, Informative)

zlogic (892404) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471436)

Uhm, Vista runs the GUI faster that WinXP if you have a decent GPU. Just like QT4's Arthur, it uses hardware to do rendering, which is great because even when the system is under heavy load you can still do basic tasks like moving and minimizing windows. The system feels much more responsive.

Re:Performance (5, Interesting)

diegocgteleline.es (653730) | more than 7 years ago | (#17472062)

It's not about "using the GPU", QT4 is just much faster and eats less resources.

"When Qt designer was ported to Qt 4.0 - only the neccesary changes to make it compile - the libqt size decreased by 5%, Designer num relocs went down by 30%, mallocs use by 51%, and memory use by 15%. The measured Designer startup time went down by 18%"

Now try to imagine the savings for the whole KDE desktop

Re:Performance (1)

andypflueger (240121) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471582)

Exactly! If you want to see bloated OSes, check our Windoze. :)

LOVE the sig, btw. My RAM has llamas too. Oh yes, I just HAD to try to run the command, LOL.

Re:Performance (1)

bcmm (768152) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471856)

When KDE is ported to windows, I wonder if they will simply make kdelibs work so you can run KDE apps? Or will they let kdesktop run as an explorer replacement (explorer replacement are possible in XP. Dunno about vista)? That would go a long way towards making windows work at usable speeds.

Of course your RAM has llamas. You viewed a webpage with my sig in then typed it into a terminal.

However, it's worrying how many llamas can't be explained that way, isn't it?

From dot.kde.org (4, Informative)

strider44 (650833) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471292)

I monitor dot.kde.org pretty closely and there's a few things notable here. Firstly if you look at KDE at the moment it doesn't look much different to KDE 3.x. This is because the frameworks are currently being finished and polished - the interface will be the *last* thing to be finalised - remember guys tip of the iceberg - there's a whole lot more code that you don't see than you do see.

Also, with this article specifically, a few of the graphics are temporary, most notably the background that's pretty obvious in ksysguard. Yes it's horrible for that app, no it won't be there in the finished version. It's a temporary background being used in several apps at the moment for a placeholder.

Also, the start menu isn't finalised yet from anything I've heard, that's the start menu designed specifically for Suse - it's been on Slashdot before.

KDE looks like it will be coming together quite quickly and quite soon. Several major components are pretty much complete and are being polished now. Looks like pretty fun stuff - don't believe anyone who says it's vapourware.

Re:From dot.kde.org (5, Informative)

strider44 (650833) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471306)

Also, a similar KDE article is at http://dot.kde.org/1167723426/ [kde.org]

Read the comments there as well for some interesting info.

Re:From dot.kde.org (2, Insightful)

Wanderer2 (690578) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471376)

Also, the start menu isn't finalised yet from anything I've heard, that's the start menu designed specifically for Suse - it's been on Slashdot before.

Glad you mentioned that before I posted! I was about to rant about how much I hate the look of that start menu. It looks too similar to the Windows XP, expanding-to-fill-the-screen-with-icons-all-over-t he-place one which drives me mad. That said, I do occasionally have trouble finding seldom-used stuff within my KDE start menu (is $APP under Settings, Utilities or System?), so I know my current set-up isn't brilliant either.

Re:From dot.kde.org (1)

It'sYerMam (762418) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471592)

Settings/Utilities/System seem to be placed without rhyme or reason. I thought I'd worked out something logical, but apparently not, because there's always something that bucks the trend. I also don't like the WinXP style "change where everything lives every two seconds because $THING knows best." If that's not If I can't turn that off, well.. it'll be a big turn-off.

Re:From dot.kde.org (1)

richlv (778496) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471734)

i've tried the one in opensuse 10.2 - it does not expand all over the screen :)
i didn't like that tabs were switched on mouseover instead of a click, and applications were 'sliding' instead on click of opening on mouseover (makes navigation much, much slower).
but, on the other hand, you customise your favorites list, which is most you ever need - and for other things you can use search bar at the top.

suse linux upto opensuse 10.2 (i think 10.0 and 10.1, maybe others) had a classical start menu with a filter field at the top. writing in this field would filter the start menu, shading out menu an program entries that would not correspond to what you had entered. a really great way for finding that ksnapshot, kcalc or superkaramba entry :)

i'm still not sure which one i would prefer in a long run. if i could get tabs on mouseclick and applications popup on mouseover like in the classical menu (even if they pop out of that start menu window), i would seriously consider the new applet (named kickoff, by the way).

for now, i'm on slackware with the classical menu without filtering capabilities ;)

Still not there yet.. (1)

FrostyCoolSlug (766239) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471294)

Although the 'titbits' are nice, I'm still waiting for some full screen shots go as far as eye candy goes, but I get the feeling that along with the eye candy comes overcomplexity, I hate that 'Start Menu' design, it lacks intuitiveness, and seemingly ease of use. (It also has the SuSE logo all over it).

I don't care about how the internals of my GUI work, all I care is that it's fast, intuitive and easy to use. It looks like KDE are finally working on the 'Fast', but as far as the others, I'm going to reserve judgement at this point.

Ooooo eye candy! (1)

EmbeddedJanitor (597831) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471334)

What a crock. Eye candy is completely pointless for its own sake. I'd rather that people fixed some real bugs than put on pointless makeup..

You should not have to wory about how your GUI is built, but it does matter that it works better (which just happens to be achieved by building it differently).

Re:Still not there yet.. (5, Interesting)

rucs_hack (784150) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471360)

Funny how everyone says 'SUSE' these days to rhyme with 'traitorous scumbags' :-)

I'm a new convert to KDE, after years of predominantly fluxbox usage, with the odd dabble into Gnome. This is mainly because I principally used Linux over VNC or ssh, so KDE was out of the question, too slow over the network.

Now I have the novelty of a fast local Linux box, and decided to try out these fancy Graphical Desktops a bit more. The new Gnome is good, but I must say I am becoming more and more impressed with KDE as the days go on. I still like my fluxbox though, simplicity does have it's appeal sometimes. Can KDE ever be that fast though, I doubt it. Not that I care much about load times on KDE, 99% of my computer usage is text editors and the console. Those are two things that run fast on any system.

KDE on windows? Sounds interesting. Windows is just a games environment or dumb terminal into my linux cluster for me normally, I'd love to have KDE on XP. A fast KDE frontend for Vista might actually make me consider buying that heap.

Re:Still not there yet.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471530)

Nope Never gone happen, they are only going to port some applications. The real desktop experience won't be running on Windows....

Guess some Virtualisation is the only way out for the current time

Re:Still not there yet.. (3, Insightful)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471782)

If by KDE you mean 'KDE, all the apps hosted on the KDE site, and all the features of KDE like the FISH protocol' then I am -so- with you. If apps like K3B would run also, nothing could stop me from buying it.

But if you mean just the window manager and such, and not Quanta/Konqueror/Konsole... I'd have to pass. KDE is useful to me. It's not about looks.

Re:Still not there yet.. (1)

Maelwryth (982896) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471548)

I am using that start menu at the moment (openSUSE 10.2) and it's......ok. The main adjustment I found was that I had to know where everything was before I could find it. I am quite used to it now but I don't think someone who wasn't used to the KDE menu groupings would find it very easy at all.

10.2 is the best distro I have used so far. It is solid, easy to use, and has a nice interface. My only complaint is that it mapped my SATA drive nvidia_bcfceabd for reasons I haven't ascertained. But I haven't had much time to look into that yet.

Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (2, Insightful)

DrXym (126579) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471318)

KDE is a very slick desktop, but it doesn't seem to know when "less is more". The control center is probably the worst, most confusing configuration application of any desktop I've ever seen simply because the options that 99% need to get at regularly are mixed in with options that only 1% / nobody ever needs to touch. Then you have various K apps such as Konq or KMail where you might have up to SIX different preferences menu items to choose from to configure the app.

I wish they'd follow GNOME or Firefox and realise that overloading the senses with tabs, buttons and checkboxes does not make for a pleasant desktop experience. I'd be happy if all KDE 4 consisted of was a rationalisation of the menus and prefs to slash out most of the crap, or at least move it into an advanced mode where only masochists could see it.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (5, Interesting)

strider44 (650833) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471424)

It's funny that that's the reason why I detest Gnome - for some reason they got the idea that removing all the options that only 5% of users use is a good idea. Of course all the other options are used by a different 5% each time so in the end you've got the majority of users upset because the option they want has been removed. Note: Put to the side with an unknown and unguessable key combination counts as removed.

But that's OK because Gnome isn't for me.

Please, Gnome is a slim pick up and go desktop for new users, KDE is a customisable and flexible desktop for power, business or techie users. I like it this way, it gives everyone a desktop that they are comfortable with. As a techie, I want KDE to stay the way it is, please don't try to change it to something it is not.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (2, Insightful)

DrXym (126579) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471556)

Please, Gnome is a slim pick up and go desktop for new users, KDE is a customisable and flexible desktop for power, business or techie users. I like it this way, it gives everyone a desktop that they are comfortable with. As a techie, I want KDE to stay the way it is, please don't try to change it to something it is not.

No it doesn't give everyone a desktop they're comfortable with. If you put twice as many options in a user's face than they would reasonably expect or ever require they are going to get confused. They'll be scared of even opening prefs or menus for fear of trashing their app or desktop. As I said, if somebody in the minority absolutely needs all those options, create some tool for them to get at them or implement an advanced mode that shows them. For example, I can type about:config into Firefox and fiddle with all the options, without inflicting them on regular users. And Windows has TweakUI and regedit.

There is a very good reason that the likes of Apple, and to a lesser extent Windows & GNOME hide options - it makes the desktop more accessible, more productive and easier to use for everybody. Expecting the vast majority to wade through crap makes for a terrible user experience. Regardless of what advantages KDE might offer over GNOME in other ways I know which side my money would be on in a usability lab.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (1)

strider44 (650833) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471588)

I don't think you read my message very closely. KDE's not for everybody. Neither is Gnome. That is a good thing since people are different. If you want to change KDE to be just like Gnome then that would defeat the whole purpose of the choice of difference desktop environments.

Your solution, especially for Windows, involves huge difficulties for me as an advanced user. You're actually suggesting that if you use Windows and want to do something the least bit advanced then I should buy a new program or use a piece of shit like Regedit? I like KDE making it easy for me to do advanced things. You don't. As I was saying before, it's OK that Gnome hides advanced options since I don't use it. You obviously don't do many advanced things with your computer, but that's OK - KDE's obviously not for you.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (1)

DrXym (126579) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471648)

I'm not saying KDE should be like GNOME. My original message said I'd be happy if they only thing changed in KDE4 was to simplify it.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (1)

strider44 (650833) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471662)

But the usability guidelines are the main thing that differentiates Gnome and KDE. I'm sure most Gnome users think that KDE is a bloated piece of crap, while most KDE users think that Gnome is a toy system that lets you do fuck all. Simplifying KDE will make it more like what current KDE users hate about Gnome.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (3, Insightful)

Octorian (14086) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471642)

Windows doesn't hide all the advanced options. Many are still easily accessible from the GUI. MacOSX, however, hides them so deep that you need to drop to the command like to tweak them. (Heck, Apple's complete hiding/elimination of options is why I ditch Apple's packaged apps whenever I find a suitable alternative, even if I used MacOSX every day at work)

Likewise, GNOME hides the options so deep as well, that only a poweruser spending the day on Google is ever going to even figure out how to get to them.

At least KDE (and Windows) put the options where you can find them using just the normal flow of the GUI.

This whole "assume the user is a drooling moron or an ubergeek, with *nothing* in-between" really puts off a lot of "competent" Windows users.

Just a bit of a windows bashing... (1)

xtracto (837672) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471896)

At least KDE (and Windows) put the options where you can find them using just the normal flow of the GUI.

Yeah you bet, every advanced option you can imagine is on plain view for you to change your GUI based
REGISTRY EDITOR
KEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Curren tVersion\Explorer\Advanced
in the registry and add the following DWord value
CascadeFolderBands and set it to 1.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (1)

RzUpAnmsCwrds (262647) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471744)

It's funny that that's the reason why I detest Gnome - for some reason they got the idea that removing all the options that only 5% of users use is a good idea.

Those options aren't gone, they are just exposed in GConf. People who complain about a lack of configurability in GNOME haven't figured out how to use gconf-editor.

Please, Gnome is a slim pick up and go desktop for new users, KDE is a customisable and flexible desktop for power, business or techie users. I like it this way, it gives everyone a desktop that they are comfortable with. As a techie, I want KDE to stay the way it is, please don't try to change it to something it is not.


GNOME is for system administrators, general users, and anyone who doens't want hundreds of preference screens. KDE is a support nightmare because there are so many ways to screw with it (GNOME unfortunately isn't great in this regard either). Everyone has their damned KDE desktop configured differently - it's always fun when I have to adjust to someone's desktop because they changed the focus behavior or the positions of the window controls.

GNOME releases regularly and gets new features out into general use quickly.

Don't generalize about GNOME, capitalize it correctly, and learn how to use GConf. KDE is a fine desktop in many regards. But don't assume that GNOME is as "dumbed down" as you think.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471898)

Gnome is good in very many ways. Gconf in my opinion is not one of them.

People who complain about a lack of configurability in GNOME haven't figured out how to use gconf-editor.

Have you used it? Have you been on the gconf mailing list? Have you read the docs that exist? It doesn't work very well, is very poorly documented and can't really be used to import and export settings - the Sabayon project is an application designed to meet the import and export problem - so it won't always be like this. The current gconf people are doing a decent job with something I consider was originally a truly stupid implementation of a bad idea from a guy that thought a registry must be fantastic becuase Microsoft use it - then abandoned the whole thing to try to copy .Net leaving others to sort out the mess. I can also only assume that many in the gnome team also have an ideological opposision to the *nix idea of manual pages and the gnu idea of info.

Flat text files such as in KDE and many other applications make it trivial to move a user to another machine or to apply the same setings to other users. Gconf is the twenty minutes with a GUI for every user solution.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (1)

xtracto (837672) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471794)

Please, Gnome is a slim pick up and go desktop for new users, KDE is a customisable and flexible desktop for power, business or techie users.

Just a clarification here. While i agree that Gnome is a good desktop for new users I need to make clear that not everyone who preffer Gnome are new users. I am not a new user and I preffer Gnome against KDE any day of the week.

This reminds me of the time when someone on slashdot told me that I should not be using XUBUNTU because it is for people that is supposed to know "what they are doing"... Xubuntu's objective is to have a slim desktop or from the xubuntu.org page: "It is lighter on system requirements and tends to be more efficient than Ubuntu with GNOME or KDE, since it uses the Xfce Desktop environment, which makes it ideal for old or low-end machines, thin-client networks, or for those who would like to get more performance out of their hardware.".

Similarly, Gnome follows some specific guidelines. There are some newbies and some hardcore geeks that will like or dislike the guidelines but it does not make you a noob (or a 1337) use one or another.

Some criticism of gnome mostly past (5, Informative)

dbIII (701233) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471822)

I hate gnome due to the cretinous idea of implementing an obfiscated MS Windows style registry on what was at the time a non-portable linux environment - and having one of these registries per user spread over multiple files named after the three stooges and others (not kidding) in a form where you cannot export the settings to another user let alone another computer. This has been fixed to a degree, not everything needs gconf anymore and with Sabayon many of the settings can be exported. However it remains an environment where a user can render their laptop unusable via a screen resolution applet which sets stuff in the weird registry instead of in the X windows configuration files where it belongs. Try fixing that over a bad mobile phone link to a remote area some time. Cretinous behaviour like making things executable without permission also occured at one time, but I believe was fixed rapidly.

Fortunately the people that wanted a version of MS Windows that they wrote themselves running on linux (only) but not understanding the features of the platform have moved on - leaving us with two fairly decent environments with just a few remaining flaws.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (5, Insightful)

Chris_Keene (87914) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471836)

"Please, Gnome is a slim pick up and go desktop for new users, KDE is a customisable and flexible desktop for power, business or techie users."

Disagree.

I use Gnome because I have a million and one things to do and so long as the interface isn't annoying, looks ok and doesn't get in the way, then it's good for me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a power, business and techie user. When KDE 1 came out I spent loads of happy minutes changing every setting just to how i liked it on my home PC. Partly because I could and partly because I found the default kde setup annoying.

I now use Ubuntu (at work) and have never felt the urge to change a single option. Now, the techie in me wants to do cool things at a PC, not change how the taskbar looks.

Mod parent up! (1)

Xolotl (675282) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471916)

Exactly. I'm getting tired of this 'Gnome is for newbies, KDE is for power users' argument that gets trotted out over and over again. I'm a 'power user', I've tried every KDE version to date and always gone back to GNOME, because it just works the way I want it to without having to change anything, and stays out of my way. KDE 3.3 and beyond are much better than older versions, but still I prefer Gnome. But then I always preferred MacOS over Windows.

Sometimes, I get the impression that the bulk of KDE fans are the same sort of people who load up Windows with all sorts of extensions, cursor animators, funny fonts and the like, which to me are just distraction.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (1)

value_added (719364) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471894)

It's funny that that's the reason why I detest Gnome - for some reason they got the idea that removing all the options that only 5% of users use is a good idea.

I agree, and I don't doubt that opinion is widespread. I tend toward installing Gnome for others because it gives the appearance of simplicity and it's generally less annoying looking than KDE (I think the operative word kids use today that would describe it is less "gay"). But dear Lord, Gnome is as dumbed down and featureless as Windows, if not more so. The documentation/help system consists solely of instruction of what to click and where, and the configuration options are limited at best. And gconf? I'd rather deal with the Windows registry; at least it has features. Things do generally work, however, so I guess it's appropriate for the average user. That said, I do understand why others may consider KDE the better choice.

Me, I couldn't stand to use KDE, and Gnome, well, when it occurred to me how much of a pig gnome-terminal really is (among other things), I just threw up my hands and installed Fluxbox and went back to using xterms and screen. What more does anyone need, right? ;-)

As for KDE on Windows, that should be regarded as an interesting but slightly bizarre concept. I could be wrong, but I guess the thinking is that it will be used to replace the Explorer shell (Windows term for the desktop, taskbar, systray, etc.) a la LiteStep and similar shell replacements. If that's the case, then I can tell you from years of experience that doing so can be a bitch, and one can never trust Explorer to go away and stay away like you told it to, or even that things will work normally. Getting a functional pager on Windows wouldn't hurt, though.

Whatever the situation or one's opinons, it's good to see continuing development and the accompanying buzz for KDE. A refreshing change from the onslaught of stories about Vista.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (1)

Psychotria (953670) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471512)

Less is not more if there is no option to view more detail. This is Gnomes worst "feature". Apps are able to fail and get away with displaying error messages like "Application Failed to Load". How is this helpful?

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (1)

DrXym (126579) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471574)

If there is indeed an app in GNOME which says that, it sounds like a bug that you should be reporting. I strongly doubt that the HIG requires apps to report "Application Failed to Load" when a more helpful, descriptive message might say what the issue is.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (2, Insightful)

Godji (957148) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471564)

I understand your concern, but on the other hand, KDE is right now the only desktop which allows me to customize EVERYTHING I could ever want to customize WITHOUT going into config text files or the source code itself. This is exactly what I like most about it!

Have you ever had the feeling that "this program is awesome, but there's this really annoying tiny thing I wish I could easily change"? I had a couple of these with GNOME last time I tried it, and I've never had this with KDE 3.x.

GNOME is already a good, clean desktop. KDE is the good, customizable desktop. It's better to have one of each, rather than two of the same, don't you think?

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (1)

DrXym (126579) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471626)

I don't really give a damn about the deskop. To my mind, the desktop should be something which is easy to configure, let's me organise files'n'stuff and run apps. It should do this with the minimum of fuss. I might want to set it up with some applets, change the locale, mouse speed and a few other bits and pieces, but other than that it really should sink into the background. Every second I waste trying to configure it, is a second lost doing what I bought my computer for. Every second I waste changing weird default behaviour is a second lost doing something productive.

A classic example from KDE - A while back I installed SUSE 10 and it defaulted to that stupid "single-click-launches-apps" behaviour - a behaviour so roundly savaged back in 1996 when MS introduced it that they promptly dropped it but still apparently favoured by KDE. So I spent the next 30 minutes trying to disable it since I knew there must be a way. After rooting around a morass of settings under desktop, themes and various others places I EVENTUALLY discovered that single-click behaviour was under the mouse panel. WTF? I wasted 30 minutes to disable a broken click behaviour which shouldn't even have been turned on in the first place.

It's not just the desktop. The same laissez faire attitude affects Konq and KMail where there can be up to six menu items all starting with "Configure" under one menu item. If Firefox can manage a single "Options..." with context sensitive "Customize..." for toolbars I fail to see why Konq needs to inflict pain and suffering on all those who choose to configure it.

It's just sloppy and probably the reason that KDE is losing mindshare to GNOME. KDE apps are arguably nicer to use than GNOME apps in various ways. QT is arguably more sophisticated than GTK. But GNOME is putting serious effort into usability and it is paying off in spades. I occasionally hear people bemoan GNOME being favoured over KDE in enterprise. I expect that usability has a hell of a lot to do with it.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471718)

I think it would be easier to give KDE a nip-and-tuck in the "options" department than it would be to bring GNOME and its apps up to KDE's level of functionality. By an order of magnitude. Heck, if LiveUI takes off, then distros wouldn't even have to alter a line of code!

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (1)

extern_void (1041264) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471874)

I think there is something wrong with almost all linux desktops. It is hard to them
to get the middle point of quality, when you have all the features you need
and leave the dirty features you would never use. Sometimes you get it very simple, in case of
Blackbox and sometimes you get it very confuse just like KDE and Gnome.

I believe that KDE is still the desktop environment that is closer to this middle point.
But still has a lot of work to do.

Re:Less of the kitchen sink would make KDE better (4, Insightful)

Mjlner (609829) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471986)

"I wish they'd follow GNOME or Firefox and realise that overloading the senses with tabs, buttons and checkboxes does not make for a pleasant desktop experience."

Hear hear!

You're so right! I wish the KDE team would realise that a pleasant desktop experience involves editing .gtkrc-2.0 by hand and adding stuff like

binding "gaim-bindings" {
bind "Return" { "insert-at-cursor" ("\n") }
bind "<ctrl>Return" { "message_send" () }
}
widget "*gaim_gtkconv_entry" binding "gaim-bindings"
This is Clearly preferable and more easily understandable compared to having to click a check box, as you had to do in the bad old days of Gaim.

Kstill Ktoo Kmany Koptions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471324)

Is it really so hard to strike some middle ground between no options and so damned many you can't find the one you're looking for?

Re:Kstill Ktoo Kmany Koptions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471386)

They prefix everything with a 'K' so that you know that they are all Krap.

Re:Kstill Ktoo Kmany Koptions (3, Insightful)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471524)

Is it really so hard to strike some middle ground between no options and so damned many you can't find the one you're looking for?

Yes.

KFG

You know that... (1, Troll)

OpenSourced (323149) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471352)

... a software package will suck when the most exciting fact about it, is its new license.

Re:You know that... (5, Insightful)

strider44 (650833) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471538)

Only when it means Amarok on Windows and Macs. That's a good feature of KDE 4.

Re:You know that... (1)

RLiegh (247921) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471950)

....only to people who run windows or MacOS. KDE 4: "giving you less reasons to use Unix"

Didn't anyone learn from OS/2's mistake? Don't make your OS irrelevant!

KDE4 will be the turning point (1)

MrSmileyJr (981125) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471358)

I dunno about the rest of you windows users, but it looks like kde4 will be the time when I finally switch to linux. I have always wanted to, but the ugliness has always made me hesitant. After doing some research I found that it can be made much nicer, but still, I really don't want to spend tons of time tweaking to make it look nice. If kde4 delivers, it might even be good enough to get lots of people to switch. If its so good that it looks awesome without any tweaking.... well then it might be good enough to compete with Mac's "just works, looks awesome."

I can't wait.

Re:KDE4 will be the turning point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471410)

Ugliness kept you on windows? When has ever windows been noted for prettiness?

Re:KDE4 will be the turning point (1)

MrSmileyJr (981125) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471438)

the smooth edges of winxp defenitely make things look nicer than what linux has generally been until recently. Regardless, win xp is nice enough on the eyes to keep you from running away from it, and linux just isn't appealing enough in terms of eye candy in order to make you switch. - as an example - mac os is actually cool looking enough to get you thinking....

Re:KDE4 will be the turning point (0)

RajivSLK (398494) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471908)

I agree. Especially with the windows vista upgrade looming. If KDE4 delivers I may not ever even bother to try to "upgrade" to vista.

I have switched to linux probably 4 or 5 times in the last 10 years; always switching back in 3 or 4 months. This time it might just stick.

Linux GUIs are like Korean cars while windows is more like Chevrolet. Over the last 10 years the Korean's have just kept plugging away producing cheap no nonsense cars, copying the successful looks and styles of the leaders. Slowly becoming more and more polished, until now, suddenly they have started to innovate and surpass. While Chevrolet is, ummm , well, Chevrolet.

(Oh, and in this metaphor OSX is a finely crafted European car, you guessed it, a jaguar [but with only one pedal... and you must open a terminal window to change gears]).

Hmm , let me guess... (-1, Flamebait)

Viol8 (599362) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471392)

... let me see , what have the KDE team done so far. Err , copy the windows look and feel , and .... umm , no thats it. So what will KDE 4 be? A knock-off of XP with a few Vista features they've found out about thrown in for good measure?

Sorry , I'm not trolling but KDE really is just a windows clone even down to the style of the main menu. It has zero originality so why should anyone expect this to change with 4? Other window managers have come up with new and interesting ways of doing things so why the hell does everyone fawn over KDE? Even though Gnome is kind of a windows-a-like its at least different enough to stand on its own merit and not just be a hand-me-down in spirit from Redmond.

Re:Hmm , let me guess... (1)

strider44 (650833) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471520)

I like it when trolls say they're not trolling. If you've never used KDE before don't bother commenting on it. I made a comment before showing a screenshot of KDE looking exactly like Windows XP then another one showing KDE looking exactly like Vista then another one with KDE looking exactly like Mac OS-X. I don't think I'll bother here.

Re:Hmm , let me guess... (1)

El Lobo (994537) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471576)

Oh, so much innovation! I'm speechless!

Re:Hmm , let me guess... (1)

Viol8 (599362) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471586)

"If you've never used KDE before don't bother commenting on it."

Thats right I never used it in the 2 years I had it as a desktop in my last job. I love it when people karma whore but pretend they're making a valid counterpoint.

Re:Hmm , let me guess... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471646)

Liar, liar pants on fire. No way you seriously used KDE for two years and walked away thinking it's a windows clone. What did you do? Click on the "K-menu" to start Firefox so you could start your astroturfing for the day?

Re:Hmm , let me guess... (0, Troll)

Viol8 (599362) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471686)

It has a start button and menu.
It has a control panel.
It has a task bar.
It has clickable icons in the task bar.
It lines up its main icons on the left by default.
It even implements global icon grab in the same way.
Right click for desktop properties.

I'm sorry , in what way does the above differ from the main features of the windows desktop? Stop kidding yourself that KDE is anything other than a windows rip off.

Re:Hmm , let me guess... (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471938)

I'm sorry , in what way does the above differ from the main features of the windows desktop? Stop kidding yourself that KDE is anything other than a windows rip off.

CDE - the common desktop environment as seen on Solaris is so old now that the above poster cannot be accused of being a clueless newbie - just a loud idiot talking about something they know nothing about. KDE got it's name from the similarity to CDE - which I believe predates Windows95. It is not original but is certainly not a MS Windows ripoff - there are many differences and the similarities are seen in a lot of desktop environments.

Re:Hmm , let me guess... (5, Interesting)

ErroneousBee (611028) | more than 7 years ago | (#17472030)

Stop kidding yourself that KDE is anything other than a windows rip off.

Actually its a CDE [wikipedia.org] ripoff.

CDE predates win95, and was based on the many desktop WIMP environments around in the late 1980s, such as HPs VUE.

A lot of the things you imagine are Windows interface paradigms are actually basic HCI stuff (Fitts law, Roman language left-right convention, and whatnot) that pretty much dictate colour schemes, icon size, icon behaviour, left to right conventions, etc.

The only thing I can think of that is a Windows thing is the position of a main menu button in the bottom left, its easier to mouse to the top of the screen than to the bottom because of the way the muscles in the hand/arm work. In truth the KDE button can be located anywhere, its just the default themes that just happen to position it there, cos that's where most computer users look to find a central control.

Re:Hmm , let me guess... (1)

mrchaotica (681592) | more than 7 years ago | (#17472050)

then another one with KDE looking exactly like Mac OS-X

Okay, but did it act like OSX? And do you have a link to some instructions on how I can configure it that way? Out of the four major desktop environments (Windows, OSX, Gnome, KDE) I like OSX the best, but my new computer isn't going to be a Mac so I'll have to switch...

how would a windows port work? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471398)

How would you turn off the windows GUI, how does that work? or would you have to run it on top of everything?

Re:how would a windows port work? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471540)

Er... replace explorer.exe? It's been done.

Windows port ? (1)

Meltir (891449) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471472)

My god, people wait a minute.
Sure - the gui lib will be gpl'ed.
The rest of kde is and will remain opensource too.
But i can not comprehend someone actually rewriting all of the system to make it run on windows.
There are just too many *nix connections in kde to make it run smoothly on windows.
MacOS ? Sure, its based on bsd.
Linux ? Sure, thats where they designed it (thou im sure some of the kde dev's use macOS or just *bsd too).
But windows ? Code can and should be portable.
But when you work on such a large scale - things tend to break.

Besides - by the time kde4 will be ready vista will actually be rolling out.
Nobody has the full specs for that system yet.

So - do they port it to XP ? Maybe. How long will it take ? (...)
How long will it take to make a vista port ?...

And no - i dont consider cygwin a real solution here.
Imagine the overhead of running a DE on top of a layer on a already blated OS.

The real news here is the new features of kde4 which look nice.

Re:Windows port ? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471764)

Er ... KDE4 already works on Windows. Sure, it's not 100% complete, but it's nowhere near the Herculean task you're making it out to be. KDE has always been extremely good at the Once-And-Once-Only rule, so most of the changes required are localised and very little "rewriting all of the system to make it run on windows" was required. And no, KDE4 is and will be native - no cygwin required.

http://people.mandriva.com/~lmontel/screenshot-kde 4/images.html [mandriva.com]

KDE to exhibit at SCALE 5x in Los Angeles (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471474)

KDE will be exhibiting at SCALE 5x [socallinuxexpo.org] in Los Angeles next monh.
SCALE [socallinuxexpo.org] will be held on Feb 9-11, 2007 at the LAX Westin, in Los Angeles CA.

KDE on MacOSX (2, Interesting)

hritcu (871613) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471484)

I can hardly wait to be able to run KDE apps on MacOSX without having to start an X server, and have proper copy-paste support, correct window stacking and native look an feel. There are KDE applications like Krusader [sourceforge.net] for which there is hardly any alternative on the Mac [mucommander.com] .

KDE vs. Gnome (4, Insightful)

Psychotria (953670) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471500)

At the risk of being labelled a troll, I have a few obversations to make. I yearn to return to Gnome (I made the switch from Gnome--which I'd been using for 3 years--to KDE about a year ago. I'm not sure if it's a "feature" of Gnome, but when Gnome apps (at least on my systems) fail, they don't even give a reasonable error message. This may be a design feature, to make it "easier", but, in fact, makes things stupidly difficult. If something fails, then I want to know WHY (at least give me the option of more detailed error messages). KDE is consistent. Gnome isn't (yet). 3 years ago, I would laugh at KDE users, because I knew that "Gnome was best". These days I take a more pragmatic view. Ideoligally, Gnome may be better. In practice, KDE takes the cake.

Re:KDE vs. Gnome (5, Funny)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471628)

This may be a design feature, to make it "easier", but, in fact, makes things stupidly difficult.

Troll or not I think you have just pegged the perfect Gnome slogan:

"So easy it's stupidly difficult."

KFG

Re:KDE vs. Gnome (1)

RzUpAnmsCwrds (262647) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471792)

If something fails, then I want to know WHY (at least give me the option of more detailed error messages).


No you don't. Application "failures" are almost always memory protection errors. There is no useful error message to provide unless you compiled the app with debugging symbols - and then, you're probably going to be working with the corefile anyway. Looking at an out-of-bounds memory address isn't going to do you any good.

Wow (-1, Flamebait)

El Lobo (994537) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471566)

(sarcasm)Cant't wait. KDE on Windows or Mac. (/sarcasm).

Really, it's like driving a Ferrari with a Yugo steering wheel and Control Panel. Just what we need.

Re:Wow (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17471652)

More accurately, Windows is like a Yugo that costs as much as a
Ferrari due to monopolistic abuse.

Question: When will it be released? (1)

hritcu (871613) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471622)

Do they have any kind of official roadmap for KDE4 ? Looking at the not-updated-in-agesFeature Plan [kde.org] and yet-to-be-written Release Plan [kde.org] makes me doubt that they plan to ship anytime soon. Are you guys sure that it's going to be "some time this year" as the article states?

NOOOOOO....... (4, Interesting)

advocate_one (662832) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471674)

Plasma will provide the next generation desktop experience in KDE 4.0. It is planned to integrate three separate applications namely the Kicker (Panel), KDesktop and Super Karamba (Widgets) into a single application. And the surprise of all things is that it will be possible to run the beautiful Dashboard widgets of Mac OSX in KDE 4.0.

I like things as they are with separate applications. If Kicker hiccups and falls over I can relaunch Kicker, if Super Karamba falls over, then I can simply restart Super Karamba, if the desktop falls over then I can restart the desktop... if the "all in one app" Plasma falls over, than what??? do I have to restart KDE? I don't want flaky Super Karamba widgets threatening the entire desktop... and I only want to run Super Karamba if I want to, not by default...

Re:NOOOOOO....... (1)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471968)

This wouldn't be so much of a problem (but still a problem) if they ran each app in it's own thread, or even better process.

Kool! (5, Funny)

glavenoid (636808) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471852)

KNow,if Konly Kthey Kwould Kstop Kalling Keverything KSomething or Kother!

Re:Kool! (2, Funny)

Stevyn (691306) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471972)

I GNOw what you mean

... don't like Oxgen (1, Flamebait)

Qbertino (265505) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471926)

I don't like the Oxygen Icons. To many look tacky - probalby on purpose. How that is supposed to be a 'new user experience' I can't tell. I think we've got enough rull-color range Iconsets by now. They should put the work into refining and variation of what's there.

Both ways? (1)

douglaid (897645) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471928)

The article says that Qt4 can be used under Windows. Will that make it easier for Windows viruses to migrate to Linux in a double-boot system?

Abstract handhelds (1)

spectrokid (660550) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471952)

Apparently, they will be doing a lot of work on PIM data. I, for one, look forward to the day where mobiles and handhelds will be hardware abstracted, just like printers. Instal your Nokia whatever driver, and it synchronises agenda, contacts, pictures and music, in exactly the same way as your iPod and your Palm.

Is KDE 4 really based on Qt 4.0? (1)

Tanuki64 (989726) | more than 7 years ago | (#17471964)

Hope not, a bit outdated this version. The stable version is 4.2, which is much superior to 4.0. Gentoo currently uses a 4.1 version.
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