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Apple Reverses G4 downgrade

Hemos posted about 15 years ago | from the put-things-right dept.

Apple 119

puck13 writes "According to MacInTouch "Apple has reversed the cancellation of existing Power Mac G4 orders, according to impeccable sources, and is calling back customers to explain. The Apple Store will honor existing orders for the previous configurations at the previous prices. People who ordered the G4/500 model that cannot be produced due to Motorola's production issues, will be offered a choice of the original G4/450 configuration at the original price or a discount on their G4/500 configuration, as if it had been ordered custom-built with a 450-MHz processor selected. " Check out yesterday's story for more information.

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Good Thing About The Mouse (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613259)

I developed SERIOUS wrist strain with the old ADB mice that came with older Macs, which were of the "traditional" type. I was taking a class using Hyperstudio and it was really taking a toll on me.

I lost most use of my right hand, but then I bought an iMac, with the "evil" mouse and the probelms went away in two to three days.

Don't miss the story here... (2)

kaphka (50736) | about 15 years ago | (#1613260)

Apple's reversal only applies to folks who have already placed orders. (And I suspect that their lawyers may have had more to do with it than the public outcry.)

If you decide that you want a G4 today, you'll still be getting 50 MHz less than you would have gotten yesterday for the same price.

Maybe this was Apple's plan... They raise prices and try to screw their customers, then they announce that they're not to screw their customers after all, and everyone on Slashdot ignores the ridiculous price hikes and praises them for "doing the Right Thing."

Re:People are very generous here (1)

mattreilly (33603) | about 15 years ago | (#1613261)

I head people say this "we've got to push Apple, force them back into cloning" and I think to myself. What are they smoking? What are you pushing Apple with? Your decision not to buy any more of their computers? Well, if enough people did this it would put them out of busniness. But so would allowing other companies to skim the cream of their hardware business while Apple pays for all the R&D. What's that you say? Forget about hardware and just do what it does well, the MacOS? Sorry to bring reality into this discussion but the MacOS doesn't have enough marketshare to enable Apple to survive on software alone. To win in the OS only business you've got to have a monopoly or be free. Apple needs its hardware as much as its software. That's a part of its success, its an integrated package, that is why it does what it does very well. cheers, Matthew Reilly

Re:still not gonna buy one (1)

mattreilly (33603) | about 15 years ago | (#1613262)

Apple really could/should slap that ATI bitch around some...

Well, I was about to take what you were saying seriously but then you come out with this teenage loser comment. Apologies to all the teens out there to aren't losers.

Re:What can I say? (1)

gsfprez (27403) | about 15 years ago | (#1613263)

>>Warning: Heavy Sarcasm
Gee, I dunno, you could, I suppose, call them or something...

sure. Give it a shot. 800-795-100

Doh! (Jim Rome =+5)I hate to break it to you, but *CHOKE*. They don't have the pieholes to take the call on my rig. You're OUT.(/Jim Rome)
___
"I know kung-fu."

Re:What can I say? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613264)

I was in the exact same position as you up until about a half hour ago. I ordered a 400 last night as soon as I heard my original was cancelled, just so I could have a place in the new line.

Well, the guy I talked to this morning at Apple (after waiting over an hour) told me I wasn't going to get a 450 at the original price, so just stick with the 400.

Then I see this rumor flying around all day. So I try maybe 35 times to get through to the Apple Store, and FINALLY I make it to HOLD! That took an hour and a half to get through, and finally when I did, this is what happened:

We cancelled my new order of the 400. The guy added a new 450 system and new monitor to the _original_ order, so I'm hoping I still have my original place in line. All at the original price, thank goodness.

They _might_ automatically fix your order, but I wouldn't count on it. Go to the Apple Store web page, and check out your order history (you'll need your Apple ID and password). Look at your original order. Is there a new system, and a total price that matches the original? If so you're probably in luck.

You'll still need to cancel the 400, though. Man, what a mess.

-Nick

MACS RULE (0)

Sparke023 (42024) | about 15 years ago | (#1613265)

Besides the fact that i cant run Netscape and Codewarrior at the same time on my G3, i love it! Only w/ a MAC can you have a nice pretty case AND a mouse with only one button!

Re:MACS RULE (1)

Darchmare (5387) | about 15 years ago | (#1613266)

The fact that you spell 'Mac' in all caps pretty much gives you away. Go away troll.

(BTW: I'm running CW and Netscape at the same time - maybe the problem with your machine is operator error?)


- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net

Apple makes me happy (2)

Slur (61510) | about 15 years ago | (#1613267)

Apple sent me the cancellation email yesterday, and I wasn't very upset at all. I had the sense that rising RAM prices and the earthquake in Taiwan would make my purchase of the G4/450 a steal for me, and a loss for Apple. So I didn't feel bad, just figured I could re-order as soon as the original configuration returns. Which it will soon!

HOWEVER: Today I received the following email...

Dear Apple Customer,
The following products have been shipped and are expected to be delivered on 10/16/1999.
_________________________
Z01B POWERMAC G4 1 2,848.00
With the following configuration:
PROCESSOR ............ 065-1744 450MHz G4 w/1MB L2 cache
MEMORY ............... 065-1608 256MB SDRAM/1 DIMM
HARD DRIVE ........... 065-1956 20GB Ultra ATA drive
CD/DVD ROM ........... 065-1902 DVD ROM drive w/DVD Video
REMOVABLE STORAGE .... 065-1911 Zip drive
HIGH SPEED MODEM ..... 065-1821 56K internal modem w/FAXstf
GRAPHIC SUPPORT ...... 065-1820 RAGE 128 GL card/16MB SDRAM
HIGH SPEED NETWORKING: 065-1623 10/100 BASE T Ethernet
SCSI SUPPORT ......... 065-1696 Ultra SCSI PCI card w/adapter
KEYBOARD ............. 065-1995 USB Keyboard
ACCESSORY KIT ........ 065-1732 ACCESSORY KIT
OS LANGUAGE .......... 065-1984 MAC OS
COMMUNICATION CARD ... 065-1899 No AirPort Card
_________________________

Looks as if Apple is doing the right thing, at least for those of us who ordered the G4 on the day it was announced! As for all the whiners out there, isn't screaming about it just the "adult" version of bawling yer poor little eyes out?

Yeah, I'm a Mac programmer. You got a problem with that?

Re:Screw apple (1)

TheInternet (35082) | about 15 years ago | (#1613268)

Why not wait for IBM's new ATX motherboard that accepts a Gx proccessor? This will alow people to get the best of both the pc and the mac worlds.

Let's see, it doesn't run any Mac apps?

- Scott
------
Scott Stevenson

Re:Good Thing About The Mouse (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613269)

Just chiming in again, this time with a account...

At first, the mouse seemed to be very uncomfortable, but soon I was used to it and with my wrist healed I put plans to buy a replacement mouse on hold.

I would like a mouse with two or three buttons, but none of the USB replacements offer the unique shape. However, with the current law of the land at Apple being "Whatever Steve wants, Steve gets", there is some hope of that changing, since Jobs wanted a 3-button mouse on the first Mac, but was talked out of it in an attempt to make it easier for newbies.

Since most people had never heard of a mouse, throwing in 3-buttons was considered too much for the GUI impared to deal with.

That was a good move then, but OS X will add a entirely new realm of options to the Mac user in terms of interface, and one button won't be able to cut it. IMO

Definition of overclocking (1)

TheInternet (35082) | about 15 years ago | (#1613270)

Their next move will probably be to overclock 450MHZ chips to 500MHZ.

That's not really overclocking. That's just "clocking." :) It's only overclocking if the user selects the speed higher than recommened.

The chips do, in fact run at 500mhz, but not without a bug that Motorola recently discovered that only occurs at that speed.

- Scott
------
Scott Stevenson

You're missing the point (1)

TheInternet (35082) | about 15 years ago | (#1613271)

If any business let something go like this I'm sure they would see a lot of law suites for false advertising. You just can't treat customers like that or you're going to get burned.

Apple is not the first company in the world to ever offer preorders on a product, then not have its suppliers able to fill demand. False advertising involves claiming something that you cannot or have no intention of delivering. Apple wants to ship these things just as much as customers want them.

The main problem is that Motorola isn't that great at fabricating chips. Motorola said they'd ship something, but they couldn't and apparently not without an "errata." That's why Apple asked IBM to step in.

They were completely within their legal rights to cancel the orders, but there was more backlash then they expected.

- Scott

------
Scott Stevenson

Obj-C vs. Java - Quality vs. Quantity (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613272)

Well, I have used both Objective-C & Java. If you know Java you will have no problem picking up Objective-C and after you use it once, you will never want to go back. Also, with Objective-C you can import ANY ANSI-C code you want. Objective-C is fully supported by GCC/EGCS.

Java is getting somewhat better and it is easier to get jobs doing Java. But, NEVER forget that Sun intentionally made certain fundemental design decisions to help them sell big expensive hardware at the expense of Java as a language. Compared to Objctive-C Java limits a programmers productivity and handicaps you in your design flexability.

Seriously, how many of you have read Design Patterns by Gemma et. al. and Patter Hatching by Vlissides? Those are required reading (yea yea yea, never mind the fact that the examples are in C++ - bleh!). Those books were all based on work by the NeXT people. Those patterens were derived from the work that NeXT poured into its core libraries in Objective-C. You can easily use the full range of design patterns in Objective-C (in fact most are pre-built already in one of their libraries "Foundation," if I'm not mistaken). A simple problem in Java is object message forwarding. Easy and build into Objecive-C. Very powerful and lets you do more with less code. A great tool for improving abstraction and encapsulation.

There has to be a 10,000:1 ratio of Java programmers to Objective-C programmers.

So fscking what. There has got to be a 10,000:1 ratio of lawers to brain surgeons. You want to hire a lawyer to do your brain surgery. I go with the HR drone to colleges to techincally screen applicants. And I have got to tell you that so many of today's college undergrads expect you to kow-tow to them just because they've read Java's AWT API and made their pc dual boot Linux & NT.

Well boo hoo, show me that you have a clue and a brain, then I'll hire you. You can learn what you need. I don't care if you don't know Java/Obj-C/Python, etc .... just please have a brain. Just because Java is a "trendy / hot" language right now, doesn't mean that its good to use or that those people learning it have any idea how to program.

Re:ATM (1)

marmoset (3738) | about 15 years ago | (#1613273)

The Apple technote is here [apple.com] . The condensed version: at the price of breaking a few pieces of software that relied on an undocumented API call, the open file limit went from 348 to 8169.

Re:Hard to cheer? No it's not! (1)

lamz (60321) | about 15 years ago | (#1613274)

"But what was the last revolutionary software product to come out first on the Mac platform? Sure, the hardware is much improved cost and feature-wise, but why bother with such poor software selection?"

BBEdit
Bryce
Poser
Final Cut
AppleScript
Mac OS

Oh wait, you asked about things coming out first, and I went and made a list of Mac-only things. Sure, there are 50,000 or so programs for Windows and only 10,000 or so for Macs, but if BBEdit is not one of the 50,000 for Windows, then I don't give a crap about the rest!


"...why bother with such poor software selection?"

Poor software selection is better than a selection of poor software.

benevolent underdog? (1)

Aighearach (97333) | about 15 years ago | (#1613275)

It's always been my observation that apple isn't percieved as a "benevolent underdog" based upon any of their OWN actions, but rather on people's inherent dislike for the Big Company. I mainly base this on apple's higher prices and unwillingness to allow clones[read - "competition"].

Re:Good Thing About The Mouse (1)

jafac (1449) | about 15 years ago | (#1613282)

oddly enough, that's not the first time I've heard this story. And I have a touch of wrist-tendonitis as well, probably caused by mousing, possibly aggrivated by typing. Maybe I *should* try this iMac mouse - but when I've played with store demos, I just hated them.

"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."

Re:still not gonna buy one (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613283)

1) Yes Java is total crap. Objective-C is a mature object oriented languge with ANSI C compatiblity. Java is a mere Platonic shadow of Objective-C with C++ style syntax. Objective-C has true dynamic runtime that Java lacks with Message forwarding too. Another things that really rocks for Obj-C is the libraries that they have. When I used to use the NeXT libraries, I haven't ever, even today, seen any Java libraries that measure up to their Foundation or Database libaries (very cool object-relational maping libaries).

2) ATI is OK. I agree that the drivers are the real problem.

3) Logitech mouse $30

4) LOL: "this is in support of broad market acceptance, not penis length comparisons with celery. "

5)Don't use ATM. QT is ok.

- the original AC

ATM (1)

Pope (17780) | about 15 years ago | (#1613284)

If I'm going to have to pay Adobe several hundred to upgrade my ancient copy of ATM Deluxe which works FINE on 8.6

Well, look how long it took for Adobe to come out with a 8.6 compatible version of ATM 4.5!
Adobe is one of the worst companies for keeping up with Apple these days, now that they make a lot of money on the Windez market.
Acrobat 3.0 shipped with numerous features Windez-only, as did 4.0.
Buncha mooks, you ask me.

The ATM/OS 9 conflict involves OS 9's ability to have more open files, which is a Good ThingTM for sure.
Why does Adobe drag their feet on this shit when they are one of the top Mac developers?

PPoE

Re:Stock still up... (2)

Pope (17780) | about 15 years ago | (#1613285)

I've always maintained that the Stock Market has little if any relation to what happens in Real Life.

ie. company fires a lot of people to save money, but the stock goes up because the company is now profitable on the books

Apple has been profitable,Macs are selling well (so well, in fact, that Apple can't meet demand, as usual!) they look like they will still be profitable next quarter/next year, so they're a good investment, regardless of how you FEEL about the company.

The thing that pisses me off the most about the computer media is that they still think that Windez is the only possible market, and that Apple is going to go away RealSoonNow. How can you say that about a company whose products are back-ordered to kingdom come because of outrageuous demand?

Thank goodness I was waiting 'til February to buy a G4. By that time, they might actually have some in stock! :P

PPoE

Re:check out g4 buy page (1)

just someone (13587) | about 15 years ago | (#1613286)

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/A ppleStore?family=G4

Nothing on Buy.html, Cause there was nothing there to start with.

Apple... (1)

crayz (1056) | about 15 years ago | (#1613287)

is sort of like a little kid. Their hearts are in the right place most of the time, but every once in a while, they do something stupid. If the customers just sit back and let it happen they'll do it more.

If they complain mildly, Apple will issue a press release and let their decision stand.

To get the kid to shape up, you gotta give him a nice smack on the head. Same with Apple. A bunch of people who were ordering G4s were talking about a boycott or about buying Althons, and they were totally swamping any Apple e-mail address or phone number they could find.

Well Apple took the hint.

Re:Hard to cheer (1)

cowboy junkie (35926) | about 15 years ago | (#1613288)

I dunno. When was the last time you saw a revolutionary software product anywhere? Actually, I think part of the Mac's appeal to a lot of people is that they don't have to worry about rebooting^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H having to use some "revolutionary software product" de jour.

I don't think there have been any paradigm-busters like PageMaker was on the Mac platform (one I sadly left out) lately, but I guess what worries me about the Mac is that so little new development is happening at all. Without anything like 'killer apps' to differentiate the Mac from Windows, there's fewer and fewer reasons to stick with it.

Oh, but what's with the weird examples? I don't know what Premiere is, but I don't see how Photoshop or Excel could be viewed as innovative. (?) They had reputations as pretty good products, but was either of them something new?

Premiere - important video editing software.
Photoshop - THE original killer app for the Mac. There's a reason why Photoshop benchmarks are what they use primarily to compare the PowerPPC and Pentium chips...
Excel - Before Excel came around, everyone used something called Lotus 123. How many alternative spreadsheets have you seen lately?

BTW, I'm skeptical that this seguey into the topic of Mac desirability actually has anything to do with the recent price scandal... but I guess everyone (even Mac users) have to let off a little AppleSteam now and then. That company sure makes a lot of ... interesting ... decisions.

I guess for me, at least, it's relevant because folks are so willing to cheer or jeer Apple without considering the reasons why the Mac succeeded in the first place, and why it's still headed downhill. Whether it's Windows, Mac, Linux, or BE, a platform succeeds or fails ultimately because of the software you can run on it. Anyhow, it's not a jihad...it's a tool. Use whatever gets the job done (which is why I have boxes running NT, 98, Linux, *and* the Mac OS).

Re:still not gonna buy one (2)

Anonymous Shepherd (17338) | about 15 years ago | (#1613289)

Are there actually any powerful OpenGL cards in consumer space that isn't targetted for games? Because those would be the ones that should be 'ported' to the Mac, right?

I guess Permedia?

Gamers are a different issue altogether, and my feeling on that is that the gamer niche is small enough that going with ATI is actually not a bad call. By going with ATI's Rage Fury chipset Apple get's a DVD ready solution with excellent video quality and decent TNT level OpenGL performance. This, I believe, is more than enough for 90% of users out there, and the other 10% would buy V3 boards or something.

How about the iBook vs any WinTel notebook? I think Apple has the price/performance curve beat right there. Comparing an iMac C2 with a PC requires a system with DVD, Firewire, and movie editing software, which will add an additional $300 to the price outright. I don't see that there is a disadvantage in buying Mac, as far as price performance goes. Considering the following:

ATI Rage Fury = $60
64MB Ram = $180
17" monitor = $350
10GB HD = $120
Speakers + Sound Card = $120
FireWire card = $200
Ethernet = $35
Modem = $75
Win9x = $60
Movie Software = $140
price = $1340

Price drops if you go for a lower quality monitor, smaller 15" monitor, of course, but the Apple iMac C2 is still pretty competative; nothing compared to a scratch built bargain basement, but many don't have the skills or resources to build one of those!

-AS

Rephase (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613290)

How about:

4. Reach performance/price parity with Intel AND AMD

Re:still not gonna buy one (2)

Mad Browser (11442) | about 15 years ago | (#1613291)

Due to the increase of file handles in OS 9, you can have 4 times as many fonts in your Fonts folder...

if (nt == unstable) { switchTo.linux() }

Re:Hard to cheer (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613292)

Hotline is a poop poor example. Lets talk Media 100 or Painter or InDesign. Sure lots of apps are cross platform published but these are made on macs and then poorly ported to PC. And as we all know about ports of these types never work as well on the non-native systems!

$1699 system not equal to the $2500 system (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613293)

The mother board for the $1699 is the YIKES variation without AGP and a slower bus. The $2500 system is the SAWTOOTH UMA board. Lets look at facts before we shoot our mouths off :)

There is so much misinformation here (4)

TheInternet (35082) | about 15 years ago | (#1613294)


I can't believe how many people are willing to fly off the handle without understanding what they're talking about.

Major points:

  1. DRAM prices have doubled more or less in the last few months. Meanwhile, Apple's prices remained constant.
  2. The stock price is up nine points for two major reasons:
    1. IBM is going to making Motorola's G4s (HUGE!)
    2. Apple has $700 million in product backlog
    3. Apple CFO Fred Anderson was not shy about the fact that Apple's December quarter numbers will be substantially higher.

  3. The G4/400 was not just increased in price. Virtually no one realizes it, but this is a NEW G4/400 model. A bit of background is necessary to explain:
    When the G4 first came out, the 400mhz version was the only one available. But it was not much more than a G3 in G4's clothing. This "low-end" G4 had a G4 CPU, and a G4 casing, but the motherboard was basically a G3. This motherboad is codenamed "Yikes." The "real" G4s use a motherboard called "Sawtooth." With this motherboard, you get:
    • AGP (instead of PCI)
    • twice the memory bandwidth -- 800MB/sec vs. of 400MB/sec
    • 1.5GB total RAM capacity vs. 1.0GB total RAM capacity
    • A Ultra ATA/66 interface
    • An internal FireWire port, in addition to the two external
    • Two independent USB buses
    • AirPort capabilities o Wiring to support Apple Cinema Display

    The old G4/400 has none of this. So although the G4/400 started out life as a Yikes based machine (a revamped G3), Apple just graduated it to a Sawtooth machine overnight, with significant enhancements. As such, the price increase is actually justified, particuarly when taking into account the RAM issue.

    So whoever preorded a G4/400 prior to all this is probably going to get much more than they originally bargained for -- at no additional cost.


- Scott
------
Scott Stevenson

It ain't three times faster! (2)

ToLu the Happy Furby (63586) | about 15 years ago | (#1613295)

They're already at price/performance parity, more or less. The G4 is roughly triple the speed of a P3, and this is using Intel's own benchmarks, mind you. We're not talking Bytemarks here, boys and girls, we're talking benchmarks no one dares discredit.

Oh lord. Another one falls for the Apple FUD.

No, we're not talking Bytemarks here; this one, if you can believe it, is even worse. You see, at least Bytemarks is a benchmark. It's about 10 years old and has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the performance of a modern CPU, but at least when they came up with it, someone was trying to get an idea of how fast a chip would run.

These 6 tests are not benchmarks, in any normal sense of the word. Benchmarks measure how long it takes for a computer to perform a real-world task. These tests (Apple's got 'em posted here [apple.com] ; scroll to the bottom) measure the speed of individual ops.

That's right: the G4 performs 6 specific operations an average of 3 times faster than a P3. We're talking things with names like "1024 dim. DotProd" and "256 Pt. Complex FFT". The G4 can take a dot product 3.68 times faster than a P3. Oh wait--not even that; a dot product in a specific dimension. Whoopdee. A 128-bit unit can do operations on very large numbers faster than a 32-bit one. Wow. This is like posting the fact that a 64-bit CPU can add two 64-bit numbers faster than a 32-bit one. Who would have thought.

And yes, these benchmarks were "published on Intel's own website." Of course they were. In the technical specs on the SSE core. Deep in the technical specs on the SSE core. Where information that is completely useless to anyone not planning on optimizing a compiler belongs.

Essentially, this benchmark is as misleading as quoting MFLOPS (oh yeah: Apple stooped to that one too...). Except that usually when you quote MFLOPS you at least generally need to average over the entire set of floating point ops. Not here folks. They picked out their favorite 6.

Oh wait--here's another difference: when you quote MFLOPS, you actually need to, uh, benchmark the thing. These numbers are all theoretical--just compare the number of clock cycles it takes to do an operation, and multiply by MHz. Now, it turns out they'd probably be even more in the G4's favor in practice--if I remember correctly, the AltiVec unit has a much better designed pipeline than the P3's SSE unit. But still, these numbers are absolutely, completely, worthless.

I don't have the URL offhand, but I've seen the Intel page they copied these tests from, and there were literally hundreds for them to choose from.

The point is, you can always find an operation that is carried out in less clock cycles on one particular archicture as compared to another. Always. Now it turns out that, in this case, the AltiVec apparently really is vastly superior for the sorts of things it does when compared to Intel's SSE or AMD's 3DNow. (Of course, it also takes up half the chip. Any guesses as to why they can't fab any 500's??)

However, the fact is that except for very specific applications (SETI@home in particular, and some signal processing stuff, IIRC), it doesn't make all too much of a difference. A 700 MHz Athlon will smoke a G4 450 or 500 or whatever on your basic integer stuff, and a 600 MHz P3'll be right up there with it. For the stuff that can be done with AltiVec, the G4'll certainly come out ahead, but for general floating point work, again, they're about equal. It goes without saying that, at this point, nothing crunches graphics like a year-old PC with an NVIDIA GeForce in it (except maybe something from sgi)--which, of course, is about the only thing the average user needs good float performance for anyways.

In the end, the G4 is just a decent chip with a neat vector processor that's proving hard to fab. Is it damn fast? Yes. Is your new G4 450 going to touch the Coppermine P3 733 that's shipping by the time yours actually ships? Nope. Is it "two or three years ahead of its time" like Stevie says? No way.

-Dave

P.S. And yes, you can sell them to China as well. As much as I want to like Apple these days (a simplified vertically integrated product line is a very good idea in many cases; OS X just might be incredible; and geez--did you check out the new iMac subwoofer??), the fact that every single word out of their marketing department/CEO's lips is a baldfaced lie...gives me pause.

Re:$1699 system not equal to the $2500 system (0)

cancrman (24472) | about 15 years ago | (#1613296)

Have you ever paid $700 for a motherboard upgrade? If you have, well I'm sorry.

Pete

Screw apple (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613297)

Why not wait for IBM's new ATX motherboard that accepts a Gx proccessor? This will alow people to get the best of both the pc and the mac worlds.

Re:$1699 system not equal to the $2500 system (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613299)

maybe not $700 for just a new motherboard but check the full system - new motherboard, 50 MHz faster, go from a PCI video card to a AGP video card (also freeing a PCI slot), double the amount of ram, double the size of the Hard Drive, add a zip drive and swap the CD rom for a DVD rom w/ video. So again - get the facts straight before you post. Dan

Why not overclock the chips? (1)

ndnet (3243) | about 15 years ago | (#1613301)

Apple has gotten into quite a mess this time. Their next move will probably be to overclock 450MHZ chips to 500MHZ. The effect of this would be sad, because the Mac empire is bad enough off already. Poor Steve...

PLEASE VISIT http://www.ndnet.org/!

I can confirm it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613303)

I just got off the phone with Apple, and yes, they are reactivating the orders that they canceled yesterday.

The rep apologized for all the problems and my order is once again active. I am getting the same system I had ordered, for the original price.

I'm glad that they are honoring the orders they had already acepted. Unfortunately the people placing new orders will have to pay the new higher price.

of course they did (1)

sbuckhopper (12316) | about 15 years ago | (#1613311)

If any business let something go like this I'm sure they would see a lot of law suites for false advertising. You just can't treat customers like that or you're going to get burned.
---

What can I say? (2)

Millennium (2451) | about 15 years ago | (#1613312)

(besides FIRST POST! that is :) )

Honestly, I'm glad to see Apple listening to its customers. I doubted they could really be stupid enough to pull a stunt like that, and I'm pleased to see I was right.

Let's just hope they keep this idea of listening to the customer going in the future.

Re:What can I say? (1)

ChristTrekker (91442) | about 15 years ago | (#1613313)

Agreed. It was simply too bone-headed a decision to last.

I can see them changing prices for future Macs, maybe, but cancelling existing orders? No way. It would have ticked too many people off.

CT

a different Apple? (1)

eshefer (12336) | about 15 years ago | (#1613314)

If this is true then their might be hope yet..

Sounds like a good call by Apple managment, and another true sign of how this company changed from the bonehead Scully-Spindler-Amilleo days of old.

Making fast smart decisions is what revived apple, glad to see that they realise and rectify the mistakes they make fast too.

--------------------------------

Re:Not So Fast (2)

substrate (2628) | about 15 years ago | (#1613315)

Try checking out Macintouch, they need 24 to 48 hours to finalize everything, you'll get an email. Ric Ford verified it with Apple, it is happening.

The phone peon probably hasn't even heard of the reversal yet, Steve Job's may have a Reality Distortion Field but he's never been known to have telepathy. Communication takes time.

Oh, my! (2)

jht (5006) | about 15 years ago | (#1613316)

Apple actually did the Right Thing for once - be still my beating heart!

For all their neat hardware and unique software and "cool" consumer appeal, Apple has a long and distinguished history of doing things that really piss off customers (the 1988 price hike, the cancellation of Performa free tech support, the PowerPC upgrade fiascos, etc.) yet they miraculously retain goodwill despite that. It's fine if Apple wants to change the base configs in order to ship product (they actually added RAM to a couple of them in this action), but cancelling existing orders was pure foolishness. It's good they saw the error of their ways. Were I Jobs, I'd have changed the speeds on the base models, filled all the existing orders except the G4-500's, and then asked the customers for those if they wanted to wait or if they wanted a 450 with more RAM instead. That's the only fair thing to do. I'm glad Apple finally seems to have gotten it for once.

- -Josh Turiel

Not So Fast (3)

etherwalker (78824) | about 15 years ago | (#1613317)

After I read the Macintouch article I called Apple to see if they were really going to uncancel my order (placed early last month.) They weren't sure, but said I might be one of the "lucky ones" whose orders had already been sent into production.


Doesn't sound like much of a reversal to me, if everybody who ordered after mid-September is still sh!t out of luck.

Hard to cheer (1)

cowboy junkie (35926) | about 15 years ago | (#1613318)

It's hard to cheer when a company basically tries to pull a fast one and reverses itself only when it gets called on it.

Anyhow, am I the only one that doesn't understand why folks are so bully on Apple these days? I used to be a Machead myself years ago, when it was a platform of innovation (with stuff like Photoshop, Premiere, Excel, etc. being born and raised on it). But what was the last revolutionary software product to come out first on the Mac platform? Sure, the hardware is much improved cost and feature-wise, but why bother with such poor software selection?

Re:What can I say? (1)

eo (7103) | about 15 years ago | (#1613319)

Well, Apple has listened before. For example, when they came out with a new version of AppleShare IP (v6.2) earlier this year, they wanted to charge the same price ($499) for upgrades as for a new copy. Customers cried out, and Apple dropped the upgrade charge altogether.

http://www1.macintouch.com/asip62up.html

It was just another of those boneheaded moves that seem to happen to every company.

-eo

I wonder... (1)

TeddyR (4176) | about 15 years ago | (#1613320)

if slashdot is read by people at apple...

rob: You have access to the web logs... so.... how many hits from .apple.com?

:-)

Who brought the smart kid? (5)

cancrman (24472) | about 15 years ago | (#1613321)

There's nothing like massive consumer & media backlash to make someone change their mind, huh?

But the fact that they seriously thought that they could get away with it really bothered me. "Oh hey, we're Apple so you know that G4 400 that we said was going to cost you $1600? Well now that's gonna be a 350. But you can still get the 400 for $2,500 if you want." Total insanity. At least they got wise. I guess they banked on the fact that the Macintosh faithful are probably some of the most loyal consumers out there and thought that they could ream them just a little bit more.

I can't believe I'm saying this but - Way to go angry Mac users!

Pete

Pete

Great news (1)

substrate (2628) | about 15 years ago | (#1613322)

I'm glad Apple did this, I want a G4 running MacOS X alongside my PIII 450 runing Linux. Once MacOS X rolls out I'll buy a midrange G4 nicely equipped, whatever midrange means at the time.

Re:I wonder... (1)

Coretti (17558) | about 15 years ago | (#1613323)

I think it's worth noting that all the major Mac websites had this up as well yesterday, and a *lot* of people who had preorders were steaming on the message boards I've seen.

Good business (2)

bjk4 (885) | about 15 years ago | (#1613324)

I'm very suprised at Apple's actions today. Most people whould be able to tell you (meaning a corporation) that raising prices while lowering quality would piss a customer base off. I know that according to economics, raising price can raise profits even though it lowers the number of customers you have. However, in the PC market, the number of customers also affects the quality of the product (by enticing companies to write progams for it.) It also affects the customer satisfaction, which is incredibly important these days. Overall, pissing off so many people at once is a really bad idea.

I am impressed that Apple has reversed their decision, but Apple is beginning to act more and more like a mindless, heedless corporation than the benevolent underdog of a company Apple used to be.

-B

I take back what I said, then. (2)

Wakko Warner (324) | about 15 years ago | (#1613325)

Seems Apple's got some sense after all. Props for reversing the cancellations, and mad props for actually calling their customers to explain -- I've never had that happen with anything I've ever ordered.

This is the proper way to do business.

- A.P.
--


"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad

still not gonna buy one (2)

jafac (1449) | about 15 years ago | (#1613326)

until:
1. Ship Mac OS X already!
2. Unbundle ATI video
3. Ship Pro models with Pro keyboard and Pro mouse instead of crappy iMac kbd&mouse.
4. Reach MHz/price-parity with Intel.
5. Fix QT 4.0 and Sherlock UI.


"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."

Jobs' Reply (2)

Darchmare (5387) | about 15 years ago | (#1613327)

Looks like this is legit. Apparently S. Jobs' email has been flooded with hate mail (heh), and he has been replying to customers saying that it will be 'set right' tomorrow.

- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net

Re:What can I say? (1)

gsfprez (27403) | about 15 years ago | (#1613328)

>>I doubted they could really be stupid enough to pull a stunt like that

really?

Not only did my G4/450 order get cancelled, i stupidly then ordered a G4/400 - i need a machine here, folks - this morning.

Now, i'm reading all over the place that they are not cancelling the orders, and are, reinstating them...

So now, either i'm getting no machine or two machines... i guess we'll just have to see what happens
___
"I know kung-fu."

Steve is a big man for admitting he was wrong (2)

CokeBear (16811) | about 15 years ago | (#1613329)

I think the quarterly profits got Steve in one of those PowerTrip moods and he started barking orders without really thinking about them. Customer response was swift, and he realized very quickly what a disaster this could turn into. It takes a big man to admit he's wrong, especially with so much at stake. Kudos for that...

Steve has a unique management style, and although some dislike him personally, it is obviously effective. Check out the two year stock chart [yahoo.com]

In other news: IBM is now also making G4 chips (*with* AltiVec) which should help to get the G4s out the door faster. If I was a gambling man (i.e. if I had any money) I would be putting all I could into AAPL. If the current backlog of orders is any indication, the next quarter could be the most profitable yet... and investors will reap the rewards. (Along with the Mac faithful who are rewarded with that Good Feeling(TM) ;-)

Great work Steve... just dont let it go to your head.

Re:still not gonna buy one (2)

Millennium (2451) | about 15 years ago | (#1613330)

1. Ship Mac OS X already!

Get it through your skull: good software takes time to write. Linux was not written in a day, so it's lunacy to believe that OSX could be. Yeah, we joke about all the delays in Microsoft's stuff, but even M$ under the same burden (that is, before they finally decide to skip quality control just to get the product out the door). Better to wait a few more months than to get a buggy piece of crap.

2. Unbundle ATI video

And replace it with... what? You need video, most users can't be bothered to slap a video card into their machines (most users would probably mess it up anyway, as any tech support rep can tell you), ATI still makes some of the best video cards out there (notice I didn't say the best; I don't want to start a flamewar), and no other company is as good when it comes to Mac support.

3. Ship Pro models with Pro keyboard and Pro mouse instead of crappy iMac kbd&mouse.

Agreed, totally. I hate the iMac keyboard. I couldn't care less about the mouse (I use trackballs anyway), but the keyboard is simply too small.

4. Reach MHz/price-parity with Intel.

They're already at price/performance parity, more or less. The G4 is roughly triple the speed of a P3, and this is using Intel's own benchmarks, mind you. We're not talking Bytemarks here, boys and girls, we're talking benchmarks no one dares discredit. MHz-wise, I do see the psychological value of a 600-MHz G4, but please realize that this isn't Apple's fault. Apple doesn't make the chips; all it can sell is what it gets from Motorola and IBM.
As for price-parity, why should Apple be forced to charge less than the machine is worth? You get what you pay for, simple as that; Apple deserves a higher price point. The machines are simply better in terms of performance, reliability, ease of upgrading and servicing, and even aesthetics. I might also add that studies show the average Mac to have twice as long of a useful life as the average Intel-based box. It's a question of value, and you get it from a Mac.

5. Fix QT 4.0 and Sherlock UI.

Agreed. At least to the point where you can see the names of stuff in the drawers, and preferably by scrapping the interfaces completely and going back to real MacOS interfaces.

Anyway, I'm not going to buy a G4, but for a totally different reason: I'm satisfied with my beige G3 as it is, at least for the time being. Though I hope they don't end the trade-in programs anytime soon...

Re:ATM (1)

jafac (1449) | about 15 years ago | (#1613331)

eh - I'd moderate you up "informative" for that.

I didn't know about the more open files with OS 9.

How many more? I've got a LOT of fonts.

- -
Yes, Adobe has produced a LOT of suckage for the Mac market lately, (especially with their stubbornness on DPS, which was a big reason why OS X is delayed, because Apple had to roll their own display system, Quartz, which is arguably better, but still - is OS X going to ship in my lifetime? I've been waiting for Copeland since 1994 dammit!)

Symantec has also greatly SUCKED as far as keeping up to date. How long did it take for them to support HFS+? Even tho HFS+ was available as beta to developers for like a year before it shipped.

Um. Let me see, what other Mac software vendors SUCK. Intuit. Um, Hasbro. Um. NOvell, (not an accidental typo), Apple (can you say Cyberdog? OpenDoc? QD3D?). How about Palm - or whomever is responsible for that Palm Desktop attrocity, that we have to PAY EXTRA for, okay 2.x is much better, but why must we pay? I paid thru the NOSE for my meager Palm III hardware, software should NOT be extra. Ooops - the company I work for (which shall remain nameless).

Damn, I'm just in a shitty mood today. Everywhere I look. Heads up asses.

"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."

apologies? (3)

mcc (14761) | about 15 years ago | (#1613332)

ok.. so apple makes a kind of bad decision that annoys some of its customers. by 24 hours later, it has realized its mistake, listented to its customers, and done something rather nice to everyone who had ordered a 450 model. (in the process giving up quite a bit of money..)

after apple makes the mistake, slashdot is flooded with people flaming apple. Apple is arrogant, apple is screwing its customers, apple is nonresponsive, apple is self-destructive and stupid. Almost none of these people posting were affected in any way by the order cancellations. The people posting who _were_ affected were just kind of calmly shrugged it off.

so now that apple has actually _listened to its customers_.. what happens? do the slashdot posters come back and appologize for being too hasty to flame? well, no. instead what we get is.. more apple bashing. people say "well it's a good thing apple is doing this", and then immediately go right on with the flaming. Mostly saying the exact same thing they were after yesterday's article. What is this? How many other companies would _do_ this? If compaq cancelled a bunch of orders and said "i'm sorry, we can't fufill these, you'll have to reorder".. would _they_ have listened to any customer complaints? (Compaq being a hypothetical example.. i've never dealt with them)

Oh, and btw i think i can say with almost absoloute certainty that apple did _not_ make the decision to give discounts to the people who had originally ordered 500s based on anything related in any way to slashdot. And the downgrade wasn't covered by any other "media" sources except macintouch/macnn. Apple based what they did on customer feedback..

meanwhile, other people in the current thread are complaining that apple effectively raised the prices for people who are going to buy new G4s after that. um, so? are you going to be buying a G4? if not why are you complaining? shouldn't apple have the right to charge what they like, especially if (because of rising DRAM prices) it is costing them more to make the product then it was awhile back? it's amazing the people who don't care about or pay attention to apple _at all_.. except when there's a /. posting about some mistake apple made, and then suddenly they're experts..
there are times when slashdot is full of interesting people with great technical knowledge and a willingness to share it, and informed insights on the thing being spoken on. These times almost never occur if apple's involved in some way. oh well. i'm done ranting now.

-mcc-baka
(this message sent from LinuxPPC r5)

I am quite upset (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613333)

I do not like the actions apple has taken but it is really the fault of MOT because they were given plenty of time to get everything right and they failed at apple's expense. This goes back to the fact that Jobs has to make up for the loss of sales. I am upset with MOT, but now that IBM is back I am sure they camn fab the chips better because they have a generally better facility and are not shifting around with restructureing

Re:Oh, my! (1)

FrodoB (74622) | about 15 years ago | (#1613334)

With 13% of iMac buyers having bought their first Mac having previously owned PCs (and a goodly number more having bought their first computer period), I should daresay that Apple is getting new customers. The iMacs increased market share for Apple. They certainly didn't cause it to dwindle (it outsold all other low end computers for months, and still continues to sell well).

That's the way it goes I'm afraid (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613335)

It seems a company can only remain young and vital so long as they are also small and the underdog. As soon as a company starts to get big they just loose that spark that made them special. Good example: 3dfx. They rocked the world with Voodoo technology and then upped the ante with Voodoo2. What have they done since then? Well, not much really. I mean the Voodoo3 is cool and all (I own one) but it's just not the groundbreaking technology the Voodoo was. Or actually, mroe appropriately it IS the same technology as the Voodoo. 3dfx hasn't really changed techonology since they first invented it (yes the orignal Voodoo1 could do multi-texturing, Quantum3d made a multi texture version). They've just made it faster and smaller. That's well and good, but in that time other companies have surpassed them. Now I think they are mostly rolling on name alone. Same thing with Apple, they revolutionized computer interfaces by bringing the GUI to the mass market but they really haven't DONE anything since then. Coloured cases, ya well, big deal. Their OS? It suffers from 3dfx syndrome (using old technology) which they plan to fix with OSX, but still. When you're little you have to fight in the only way you can and that is to be better than everyone else. The only thing that matters is succeeding through excellence. Once you get big, all that matters is what your stock does, and many companies, including Apple it seems, wiill do whatever it takes to make that stock go up.

Re:Hard to cheer (1)

FrodoB (74622) | about 15 years ago | (#1613336)

>Photoshop - THE original killer app for the Mac. There's a reason why Photoshop benchmarks are what
they use primarily to compare the PowerPPC and Pentium chips...

Funny. I could have sworn the reason was that it sucked so much CPU that it made testing insanely easy (because discrepancies are quite apparent). :)

I still consider WYSIWYG printing to be the Mac's killer app. Imagine, in 1984, being able to print to a printer exactly what you saw on your screen. What a novel concept that was! :)

Yes, call them (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613337)

Yes, I was in the exact same position as you are. Call them up. They will reactivate your old order and cancel the new one you placed on Wednesday. You will keep your original place in line. Or at least that is what I was told by two different reps I had a chance to talk to.

Re:Hard to cheer (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613338)

Umm, Can you say Hotline being the most significant piece of software. It is an underground community of active traders, and it also came first on the mac, among other things.

where (1)

Pierre (6251) | about 15 years ago | (#1613339)

Where have you been hiding these?

I know that IBM released some specs for a PowerPC chip. Did this spec include the G4?

I have an bunch of old parts sitting around a P133 that would be happier stuck on one of these boards but I'll wait to see some products before I start looking for my screwdriver....

Re:still not gonna buy one (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613340)

MacOS X may not be ready, but it damn well should have been ready by now. Apple has spent far too much money & time incrementally upgrading dead technology (the current MacOS). There are probably a lot of other ex-Mac owners like me who are too spoiled by OSs like Linux, FreeBSD, and even NT to even consider Apple again before MacOS X is released.

Porting video drivers just isn't that terribly hard. If Apple wanted to sell systems with different cards to meet different markets, the card manufacturers would be happy to write drivers. Apple's exclusivity agreement with ATI saves them a couple dollars per unit at most. In return Apple looses at least two important potential markets:

1. 3D modelers and designers, who need powerful OpenGL cards and are willing to pay a premium for high end hardware

2. Gamers, who are generally upgrade fanatics

Right now, graphics is moving faster than any other segment of the computer market. Apple should have seen that as a reason not to tie their hands with ATI.

I agree that MHz/price parity is irrelevent. However, performance/price parity would be nice. There are a lot of crappy x86 PCs on the market, and some of them aren't even price competetive (especially Gateway). There are also a lot of good quality PCs on the market that have Apple-like price/performance (IBM, Compaq, Dell is getting close). However, you can still find a lot of vendors that build quality PCs with good components _and_ offer a lot more performance for the dollar than Apple. In my mind, you are paying a premium for the privelege of running MacOS.

Also, what exactly do you mean by "desktop graphics ready". If you think that having a G3 processor with an ATI card qualifies, then by that standard the vast majority of new x86 PC sold are "desktop graphics ready".

Right now, Macs are a tough sell. The hardware is overpriced, the OS is somewhat unstable and lacking in features, and the 3rd party software and hardware market is dwindling. Releasing MacOS, equalizing price/performance with Dell, and treating their customers right would bring a lot of customers back into the Apple fold.

It Wasn't that bad... (3)

HerrNewton (39310) | about 15 years ago | (#1613341)

I haven't read through the whole discussion here, so please excuse me if this is has already been said. I just feel the point needs to be made!

When Apple decided to charge the 500MHz price for the 450MHz system, they also threw in 128MB of RAM--for free--to compensate. At current prices, that just about makes up the original cost difference between the 500MHz and 450MHz model.

From MacNN: [httpp]

From: "Brad Bradley"
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:50:03 -0600
To: general@macnn.com
Subject: The reality of the price thing

Something to try...

I went to the Apple Store and custom built a G4-450(G4/40/128/20GB/DVD-ROM/Zip/modem/AGP) like the one that I currently have on my desk. The total tab was $2849. That is $350 dollars more that I paid for my computer. Now factor in the problem created with rising RAM prices and another rise in chips that took the Tiwan earthquake hit and I think that Apple is doing the reasonable thing considering the market prices it has to pay for parts. They have to pass the price along to the consumer. The hit looks really big if you only price the pre-built configurations form Apple. The reality is that it is not nearly as bad as most are making it sound.

Oh, and for those that don't believe me I will gladly purchase your working 128 meg PC100 RAM modules from you for last summers prices of $122.00 so you can go purchase new ones form the Chip Merchant today for $342.00

Let me say that I'm not condoning Apple's handling of this matter. They should have contacted the affected customers via, first, email, and then if no response within 48 hours, telephone, asking them if they wanted to "trade" 50MHz for 128MB of RAM added to their system. As it is now, Apple can't deliver the 500MHz chips; if they'd asked their customers if they would be willing to trade MHz for MB, I'm positive that the reaction on Slashdot would have been damned near positive!


Re:The evil mouse (1)

HerrNewton (39310) | about 15 years ago | (#1613342)

I don't think the mouse is that bad... once you have a realization and find that it works better as a fingertip-only mouse, rather than full-palm, it becomes a joy to use!

Re:of course they did (0)

infojack (25600) | about 15 years ago | (#1613343)

Put a 700mhz pentium next to an apple, click on netscape or whatnot on both at the same time, and watch which one open first. Now realize that waiting for an apple instead of ordering a pc and getting it the next day is proportional to the amount of time it takes each computer to start netscape. And for those who say that starting programs is no way to measure the speed of a computer your full of it. So unless you want to bubble sort really fast (integer sort), then get a PC. The neat thing about pc's is that many many people make them, so you don't have to wait for them.

Re:Hard to cheer (1)

HerrNewton (39310) | about 15 years ago | (#1613344)

But what was the last revolutionary software product to come out first on the Mac platform?

Oh... I dunno. There was that whole Mosaic web browser thing, but I don't know what those guys were thinking... beat the PC version onto the Internet by two weeks. And then there's that Myst game... made entirely on Macs (Quadras at the time, actually), running StrataStudio.


NOT even CLOSE to Microsoft's Acquisition Lineup (1)

memoryhole (3233) | about 15 years ago | (#1613346)

>like they did to Power Computing, Newton Inc., Claris (oops, it's starting to sound like Microsoft's lineup of acquisitions, isn't it?).

Um, just thought I'd mention, Newton Inc and Claris were both Apple spin-offs. Every Newton I've ever seen has had an Apple logo on it, and Claris? Well, it was originally a combination of the MacDraw, MacWrite, and othe Mac* programs. I don't think this even comes close to Microsoft's lineup of acquisitions.

If this news story shows one thing, it's that Apple changes its mind whenever it pleases. It changed its mind when clones started leeching sales, it changed its mind about spinning out the Newton (to kill it, basically), it changed its mind about Claris (because it was offering the same software functionality and ease to Windows, AFAIK), it changed its mind about 33.6 modems in iMacs, it changed its mind about charging for AppleShare IP upgrades...when you think about it, Apple changes its mind A LOT. It responds to the market. People don't like something and make motions about it (the iMac modems, AppleShare IP, etc.) it changes.

Blame the right company...Motorola! (1)

chriswaco (37809) | about 15 years ago | (#1613347)

This fiasco is only partially Apple's fault.

The real problem lies with Motorola. As far back as I remember, Motorola has never delivered a CPU on-time and in quantity.

The only reason this is Apple's fault is because they should know better than to trust Motorola. The 68020 was amazingly late. The 68060 was so late that Apple abandoned the chip family. Their biggest mistake was not going with Intel when they had the chance.

Don't get me wrong -- I much prefer the 68K architecture to anything Intel ever created. Especially the nice, clean instruction set. But Intel has consistently outperformed Motorola in getting chips out the door, at the fastest possible speed, and in quantity.

X should not crash the OS... EVER (0)

BitS (8087) | about 15 years ago | (#1613349)

Reguardless of whether or not X, netscape or AccelX crash... they should not, in ANY WAY take down the whole machine... this is a flaw in the OS itself, NOT the application.

I've never seen X take down a solaris box, but I assume its happened, I have seen it take down a linux box, and its done it more then once on my FBSD boxes... however... The entire point of having kernel land and userland is so that if something in userland breaks... that part breaks... and its stops there...

X taking down the OS is no different then windows gpf's in kernel32.dll... both are results of bad code... (Not that I could do any better, I'd rather play with kernel drivers then the X source tree :)

No chips means no chips (1)

TheInternet (35082) | about 15 years ago | (#1613351)

The neat thing about pc's is that many many people make them, so you don't have to wait for them.

If you'd kind notice that the G4 shortage is a Motorola problem. It can't make enough chips to fill demand.

If Intel delayed a chip, no amount of Compaqs and Dells would make it ship faster. What might happen is AMD would step in and take up the slack, which is exactly what IBM is doing for Apple.

- Scott
------
Scott Stevenson

Re:Hard to cheer (1)

gsfprez (27403) | about 15 years ago | (#1613352)

>>But what was the last revolutionary software product to come out first on the Mac platform? Sure, the hardware is much improved cost and feature-wise, but why bother with such poor software selection?

um.. because for the consumer, the only other alternative is Windows 98.
___
"I know kung-fu."

But we've been here before... (2)

catseye (96076) | about 15 years ago | (#1613353)

I'm also glad to see Apple listened, but as to your comment "I doubted they could really be stupid enough to pull a stunt like that..." Some of us have been here before.

Around April of this year (I think? Maybe earlier...) Apple issued a bug fix/maintenance release of their AppleShareIP small office file/web/mail/print server suite (version 6.2). These maintenance releases had always been free, until this one which they wanted $499 for.

Needless to say, a lot of us Apple admins bitched very loudly. Within a week, they had done a similar reversal and the update became free for all of us that had 6.0 or 6.1. A much more equitable solution.

I'm glad Apple did the right thing with the G4 processor squeeze and I remain that most rare of slashdotters, a relatively content Apple user :-). But I'm sensing a trend here of testing customers and pulling back only if it looks like the water's too cold.

-A.

Re:still not gonna buy one (1)

Kintanon (65528) | about 15 years ago | (#1613354)

4. Reach MHz/price-parity with Intel.


This is unnecesary as every Equivelant MHZ Mac has been able to trash the hell out of its Intel counterpart. So paying for that 400mhz Mac is closer to paying for an 800mhz intel chip.

Kintanon

Re:Hard to cheer (2)

Sloppy (14984) | about 15 years ago | (#1613355)

It's hard to cheer when a company basically tries to pull a fast one and reverses itself only when it gets called on it.

Agreed. It's not like they did something good -- they simply changed their mind about doing something bad.

Anyhow, am I the only one that doesn't understand why folks are so bully on Apple these days? I used to be a Machead myself years ago, when it was a platform of innovation (with stuff like Photoshop, Premiere, Excel, etc. being born and raised on it). But what was the last revolutionary software product to come out first on the Mac platform?

I dunno. When was the last time you saw a revolutionary software product anywhere? Actually, I think part of the Mac's appeal to a lot of people is that they don't have to worry about rebooting^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H having to use some "revolutionary software product" de jour.

Oh, but what's with the weird examples? I don't know what Premiere is, but I don't see how Photoshop or Excel could be viewed as innovative. (?) They had reputations as pretty good products, but was either of them something new?

Sure, the hardware is much improved cost and feature-wise, but why bother with such poor software selection?

Er, wait a minute... what poor selection? It might not have as many open source projects going for it as some of the Unixy systems, but it has plenty of "mainstream" products, and that type of selection seems to be acceptable to the 'Doze users.

BTW, I'm skeptical that this seguey into the topic of Mac desirability actually has anything to do with the recent price scandal... but I guess everyone (even Mac users) have to let off a little AppleSteam now and then. That company sure makes a lot of ... interesting ... decisions.


---

Re:still not gonna buy one (5)

Sloppy (14984) | about 15 years ago | (#1613356)

4. Reach MHz/price-parity with Intel.

If this is one of the things holding you back, then you may have made a very foolish decision.

First of all, when was the last time you needed a certain clock rate? Are you trying to listen to your computer on the radio, and your radio only receives the 500-600 MHz bands? Isn't it enough that the Macs have already met and exceeded the performance you can get with Intel machines?

As for price, I can see your point and have sympathy. But keep in mind that a lot of people who buy Intel machines also end up using Microsoft software, thereby getting trapped in the annual or biannual software rental process (a.k.a. the "upgrade path"). For most people (granted, I'm not counting the Linux users), Macs are cheaper than their Intel counterparts. One of the reasons that the Mac appears so expensive at first is that they come bundled with an OS that you have to mostly pay for "up front".


---

Re:still not gonna buy one (4)

um... Lucas (13147) | about 15 years ago | (#1613357)

1 - OS X will ship when it's ready. Do you want them to pull a Microsoft and ship it sooner and then augment it with service packs to get it to a useable state?

2 - Apples just not large enough to offer a wide variety of video cards... They commit to buying all their chips from ATI and presumably get a huge discount because of that...

3 - I have to agree with that... Those keyboards suck

4 - Is a non-issue... Only someone that has no idea as to how the innards work and that is resistant to having it explained would really request this. If Apple can achieve equivilant performance with 1/2 the MHz, what do i care?

5 - I haven't seen Sherlock 2 yet (OS 9 apparently kills ATM, and i can't have that!) but let apple do whatever they want with their bundled apps... It's not terribly difficult to develope a quicktime player using Apple's API's and overlaying an interface of your choice on top of it.

Re:still not gonna buy one (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613358)

True, but for the price of a 400MHz G4 I can build a dual PIII-500 SCSI-based system with more bells & whistles, & a better monitor. For the (admittedly well-parallelized) stuff I do, it'll kick the single G4 up & down, especially with the G4 saddled with a slow OS.

People are very generous here (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613359)

Even though Apple changed their mind, they cannot get a way with the fact that they tried to deceive loyal customers. That is VERY VERY WRONG. People here in slashdot is very generous. I decided not to purchase iMacDV and I won't purchase Apple for sometime.

If angry Mac user can do this, why not we can get togather and push Apple to open up clone and MacOS ROM license?

This is SINGLE MOST important thing for Apple consumers.

Re:still not gonna buy one (1)

TWR (16835) | about 15 years ago | (#1613360)

1 - I want Apple to FORGET Carbon, forget Java in yellowbox -er Cocoa. And ship the technology they HAVE, excuse me, HAD a year ago. They're delaying it to polish Carbon integration, and converting Cocoa over so you can code in Java instead of Objective-C, which, IMO, is complete excrement.

If Apple wants to attract programmers, it should expose its interfaces via languages that most programmers use. There has to be a 10,000:1 ratio of Java programmers to Objective-C programmers.

And the difference between OSX Server and OSX is a LOT more than Carbon/Cocoa. There's a different interface (Apple is porting the Finder to a new OS). There's the small matter of porting ColorSync and AppleScript. There's a completely new graphics system (built on PDF) that remove the royalty-laden (and never-upgraded) Display PostScript.

2 - Yes, but why can't they unbundle the ATI cards, and say, hey, if you want to BTO a box on our site, we'll ship you a box w/o this substandard peice of crap (well, my big gripe is with ATI's drivers), and you can order one from a third party, or hey, we'll ship you a Doodoo 3 with our outrageous markup (which would still be preferable to paying the outrageous markup for the ATI crap which would just get chucked anyway).

Apple is NEVER going to unbundle those ATI cards. The entire goal of their product line is simplicity. It makes products cheaper, and it makes it easier for consumers to understand what they're buying. Giving the rare case (you) greater choice means making everything more expensive for everyone else. Sounds like poor economics to me.

5b - OS 9 kills ATM. Same reason I'm not going to buy OS 9. If I'm going to have to pay Adobe several hundred to upgrade my ancient copy of ATM Deluxe which works FINE on 8.6, then I'll wait until OS X comes out and breaks it again, so I don't have to pay for two ATM upgrades in 1 year. Perhaps this was technically unavoidable.

Turns out that ATM 3.9 works fine with OS 9. If Adobe releases crappy software, this is Apple's fault?

-jon

Re:Good Thing About The Mouse (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613361)

Have you guys ever seen an old DECstation (MIPS/Ultrix machine) mouse? It looked like an oversized iMac mouse except for the three buttons on the front. Although it looked clumsy it was actually fairly comfortable to use. The new top of the line Logitech mice are also strange looking but quite comfortable.

Re:What can I say? (1)

izzylobo (97456) | about 15 years ago | (#1613362)

Warning: Heavy Sarcasm

Gee, I dunno, you could, I suppose, call them or something....

I personally don't think this was the smartest thing Apple ever did, myself, but really, complaining about something that can be fixed with a simple phone call (admittedly, possibly with a wait on the phone) isn't exactly the greatest thing in the world either.

But, I suppose, that's just me....

I'll tell you why no apologies (1)

FatSean (18753) | about 15 years ago | (#1613363)

'Cause what apple pulled was so blatantly obnoxious and insulting that they never ever should have done it in the first place. Then they reversed the descision and began running their business with at least a hint of ethics...that is what we EXPECT. Should we say "Sorry Steve Jobs for calling you nasty names for pulling a crass and high-handed move"? I don't think so...

Plus, they hadn't taken your money yet... (1)

eswierk (34642) | about 15 years ago | (#1613364)

Seems to me that the other main reason why Apple backed down (in addition to the large backlash) was because they hadn't yet taken customers' money and thus still had an incentive to please them.

My own experience in dealing with store.apple.com a few months back is that the salesdroid was willing to bend over backwards to please me only until the moment my credit card was charged. While writing up my order she claimed her computer "wasn't letting her" put in the price she'd quoted me a day earlier, but my credit card would be refunded the difference.

Well, the computer arrived and of course my card was charged the higher price, sans refund. I called the salesperson, who was apparently overcome with amnesia, claiming that the price in the computer was the final selling price and that I'd have to provide written documentation of any promised refund. Hello? Written documentation? They didn't even send me a written receipt until two months later!

Anyway, I'm still an Apple fan but would think twice before ordering from store.apple.com again. Congrats to those who were un-screwed in the latest fiasco.

The evil mouse (1)

copito (1846) | about 15 years ago | (#1613365)

Maybe the fact that they're annoying to use encourages one to use it less and hence experience less RSI. :-)

But seriously, I like my iCatch [macsensetech.com] .
--

Re:still not gonna buy one (1)

copito (1846) | about 15 years ago | (#1613366)

Apple is NEVER going to unbundle those ATI cards. The entire goal of their product line is simplicity. It makes products cheaper, and it makes it easier for consumers to understand what they're buying. Giving the rare case (you) greater choice means making everything more expensive for everyone else. Sounds like poor economics to me.

I agree with you with respect to the iMac, but the G3's and G4's are expensive enough that they should really be more configurable, especially in video, a comparable performance PC workstation would certainly be configurable.
--

Re:still not gonna buy one (1)

jafac (1449) | about 15 years ago | (#1613367)

"There has to be a 10,000:1 ratio of Java programmers to Objective-C
programmers."

If Apple would promote Objective-C instead of burying it - that ratio would be different. Everything I've heard about Objective-C is that there's literally no learning curve if you understand OOP, and know C well.

Other points about differences between OS X Consumer and Server are taken. ColorSync would be an issue - however that's a Moot point if Apple loses that lawsuit. :) I would argue that Apple could have/should have slapped that Adobe bitch around some regarding DPS. AppleScript could have been abandoned in favor of - gasp! Shell Scripting/Perl - since it would have BSD underpinnings - though this may be a naive opinion.
All of your points are really valid, despite my arguments and protestations. I say again: I've been waiting for Copeland since 1994 dammit!

"Sounds like poor economics to me"
Apple really could/should slap that ATI bitch around some, and get them to write decent drivers, or release technology that's up to par with the rest of the world. Rage128 was da shit when they announced it, and when it was first released to reviewers, but - HOW long did it take them to actually release that card? Then how long did folks have to wait until we could get one other than the B&W model? By that time, Rage128 was 5 minutes ago technology. Now it's not even that.

"Turns out that ATM 3.9 works fine"
oh - thanks, I didn't know that. I guess my bitching about OS 9 is pretty much unfounded. Does this apply to ATM Deluxe? No, it's not really Apple's fault Adobe is sticking them with a strap-on. But like I said above, I wish Apple could slap these bitches around like they did to Power Computing, Newton Inc., Claris (oops, it's starting to sound like Microsoft's lineup of acquisitions, isn't it?).


"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."

Re:Hard to cheer (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613368)

About no innovative software for the Mac: Well, that isn't quite right. Here's some of the software why I am settled on using a Mac for a lot of stuff: MachTen (http://www.tenon.com) - a full BSD-Unix running on top of the MacOS. PopChar Pro - Haven't seen anything on any platform to replace this productivity booster ColorIt! (http://www.microfrontier.com) - sort of Photoshop Lite, runs in 2 Megs of RAM, excellent performance, excellent price. NIH Image - I know of labs that have Macs just to run this program ATM/ATR - I don't think these have worked as well under Windows BBEdit - the closest rival I have for this package is emacs; but the interface is still inscrutable relative to BBEdit. AppleScript - getting better and better. I don't think there is a platform with as good an integration between scripting languages; I could be wrong. But AppleScript, UserTalk (Frontier), MacPerl, Tcl/Tk...all together...

Re:still not gonna buy one (1)

jafac (1449) | about 15 years ago | (#1613369)

"sounds like poor economics to me"

ooops - what I meant to say is, you portray my opinon about Apple and ATI as a minority one, but I hear this complaint all over the internet. I don't think anybody wants Apple to ditch ATI wholesale, but all I'm asking for is a choice.

Maybe when I buy my G4, there will be an AGP Rage128 for sale on eBay. . .

"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."

Re:Oh, my! (4)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about 15 years ago | (#1613370)

The problem for Apple is that they aren't likely to ever attract a significant number of new customers until they change their business practices.

That is a rather fanstastic assertion given the fact of the matter is that 50% of iMac sales are first time Apple customers.

Re:still not gonna buy one (1)

jafac (1449) | about 15 years ago | (#1613371)

Okay, I can see how I came off as one of those "jerks who don't know PPC is twice as fast - because of RISC - etc."

Not the case- but here's why I still think it's necessary.
G3 came out.
Apple said "twice as fast". Used ByteMark. Inteliots said ByteMark sucks, use SPEC.
G4 came out.
Apple said "twice as fast". Used SPEC.
Now "they" say that benchmarks don't mean anything, hardware's still closed (IBM's POP), overpriced (difficult price/performance comparison), OS sucks (X), etc. etc.

MHz is the language the computer market understands. You can't convince people with something as esoteric (even though they mean well) as benchmarks. As soon as intel gained dominance in the 80s, and they latched onto MHz as a metric, as bogus as it is for x-platform comparison, the game was intel's. Now intel has been able to totally sit on their ass, as long as they can stay ahead in the MHz game. And that's what really sucks.
Now, not that I really care that my PPC runs at the same 700MHz as some intel "coppermine" (disclaimer - does *NOT* contain copper wiring!), nor do I care for bragging rights. A 700MHz G4 would be kick ass. And Moto SHOULD be able to deliver it (and I believe they are fully capable of doing it) if they didn't have their heads up their asses about what consumers want, and would pay TONS of money for, and what would put Motorola in Intel's current and enviable position in probably the space of 6 months.

Then I wouldn't have to worry about hiccups like this threatening the life of my favorite platform.

"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."

First the G4 rom block & now this. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 15 years ago | (#1613372)

All they're doing is trying to please the most pissed off consumer (folks who had them on pre-order weeks ago) right now while still screwing over people who thought about buying a G4. This reversal changes nothing as consumers will still have to pay higher prices for slower machines. This amounts to bait-and-switch, something no consumer is ever gonna fall for, Apple is gonna have a tough time trying to sell these configs. Its very possible that they're wont a be Xmas in Jobsland. There were plenty of ways Apple could have avoided this PR nightmare, but no they waited until they announced their quarterly earnings (which beat expectations) to announce the "Re-configurations" Look at the stock right now, its going up! Wall Street wont pay any attention to this because what matters is the quarterly earnings. The next quarter will be a different matter because im still see'ing pissed of Mac users on various forums.

Re:Steve is a big man for admitting he was wrong (1)

jafac (1449) | about 15 years ago | (#1613373)

No, Steve used quarterly profits as a smokescreen to try to pull some shit. Didn't work. Then again, have you seen AAPL's stock price? Whoo!

"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."

Re:still not gonna buy one (1)

jafac (1449) | about 15 years ago | (#1613374)

1 - I want Apple to FORGET Carbon, forget Java in yellowbox -er Cocoa. And ship the technology they HAVE, excuse me, HAD a year ago. They're delaying it to polish Carbon integration, and converting Cocoa over so you can code in Java instead of Objective-C, which, IMO, is complete excrement.

2 - Yes, but why can't they unbundle the ATI cards, and say, hey, if you want to BTO a box on our site, we'll ship you a box w/o this substandard peice of crap (well, my big gripe is with ATI's drivers), and you can order one from a third party, or hey, we'll ship you a Doodoo 3 with our outrageous markup (which would still be preferable to paying the outrageous markup for the ATI crap which would just get chucked anyway).

3 - only Steve Jobs would disagree with this one.

4 - I explained myself with another post. I only sound ignorant of the PPC advantages - but really, this is in support of broad market acceptance, not penis length comparisons with celery.

5 - I have not read one positive review of the UI for QT 4.0 and Sherlock 2. What are they thinking, anyway? They sometimes listen to their customers, but often they don't.
5b - OS 9 kills ATM. Same reason I'm not going to buy OS 9. If I'm going to have to pay Adobe several hundred to upgrade my ancient copy of ATM Deluxe which works FINE on 8.6, then I'll wait until OS X comes out and breaks it again, so I don't have to pay for two ATM upgrades in 1 year. Perhaps this was technically unavoidable. It's not really Apple's fault that ATM Deluxe costs way, way too much, but then again, it's Apples fault anyone should NEED ATM Deluxe, because of the crappy OS reliance on file handles for loaded fonts (what, I can't have more than 200 or so fonts in my Fonts folder? I have 2000 on my NT box at work!)

"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."

Re:still not gonna buy one (2)

Anonymous Shepherd (17338) | about 15 years ago | (#1613375)

Mac OSX is not ready. DO not ask for it if all it is going to do is break your, and everybody else's, hearts.

Apple has no choice, I suspect, except to bundle ATI video. They need a supplier who is willing to work closely with Apple and write drivers; 3dfx? NVIDIA? Matrox? Who?

I agree with your Pro announcements -)

I don't care about MHz parity; Price parity is non-existent because most Intel machines are crappy. Add in quality components and a Intel machines starts to approach the cost of a Mac machine. Almost every Mac is desktop graphics ready out of the box, or very nearly so, if I am not mistaken.

No comment possible on QT4 or Sherlock, never used them.


-AS

check out g4 buy page (1)

harhar (91353) | about 15 years ago | (#1613376)

www.apple.com/powermac/buy.html [apple.com]

nothing there as of 1:47 pacific western time

Stock still up... (1)

rjreb (30733) | about 15 years ago | (#1613377)

4:01PM 73 3/16 +9 5/32 +14.30%

in addition to this news also reports of shortages?!? WTF?

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