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Some 'Next-Gen' DVDs May Not Work With Vista

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the that-seems-like-an-oversight dept.

Windows 293

schnikies79 wrote to mention an article on the Times Online site, where they report that a 'substantial number' of Vista PCs will be unable to play HD-DVDs or Blu-ray discs, as a result of DRM requirements made by the operating system. From the article: "Dave Marsh, the lead program manager for video at Microsoft, said that if the PC used a digital connection to link with the monitor or television, then it would require the highest level of content protection, known as HDCP, to play the discs. If it did not have such protection, Vista would shut down the signal, he said."

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MSFT Development Cycle (4, Funny)

HangingChad (677530) | more than 7 years ago | (#17523966)

Ready!

Fire!

Aim!

Re:MSFT Development Cycle (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524034)

guess that means your gearing up for a second shot?

Re:MSFT Development Cycle (0)

vought (160908) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524656)

Nice. On the same day Apple announces appletv and iTunes-style playback of HD-quality movies through a wireless tv/media hub.

I knew that someday Windows would collapse under it's own weight - I just didn't think it would be this soon.

Paging DVD Jon (4, Funny)

Weaselmancer (533834) | more than 7 years ago | (#17523968)

DVD Jon to the white courtesy phone, please.

Re:Paging DVD Jon (1)

Spritzer (950539) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524068)

"Jon here."....."I see."
"Talk to this kid [playfuls.com] . He says he has it under control."

Re:Paging DVD Jon (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524146)

No, please don't. Making stupid DRM'd technologies acceptable to the average end user by hacking them really does more harm than good.

I'm actually hoping the technology advances to the point where it can enforce the letter of the license *EXACTLY* so people wake up to how oppressive the various license agreements (both the Windows one and the ones for the music and movie media) are.

If people had any idea how bad it was (can't show a DVD on a college dorm shared TV because that's a public display that the DVD doesn't give you a license for ; can't install windows on VMs for testing without paying more ; etc) - they'd object much more strongly.

The current situation where it's easy to break Windows and DVD licenses just advantages unethical companies and people and hurts the ones that attempt to be law abiding.

Re:Paging DVD Jon (3, Funny)

iminplaya (723125) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524648)

picks up the red phone

"No, the WHITE phone"

Re:Paging DVD Jon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524756)

"OK, give me Hamm on five, hold the Mayo.."

Hopefully (0)

wingerhopper (1047306) | more than 7 years ago | (#17523974)

It will be hacked to hell or they'll realize the absolute idiocy of content protection that effectivly hobbles the usefulness of their system.

Who stream copies anyway? (3, Informative)

TheAxeMaster (762000) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524548)

Seriously, does anyone actually take the computer/DVD player output (s-video or whatever) and capture it with something else? I thought that went out along with dubbing VHS's as soon as we could get DVD drives for PCs. I realize that this is just trying to close the analog hole, but NOBODY copies DVDs this way, why do they think people will do that with high def DVDs?
 
The future of media cracking isn't signal capture, its firmware hacking DVD drives (if that much effort will even be required).

Re:Who stream copies anyway? (1)

wingerhopper (1047306) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524708)

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought that the issue was that if someone bought a new disk and thought that they could play it on their computer, they wouldn't be able to because the encoding on the disk wouldn't be right.

Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (5, Informative)

Renegade Lisp (315687) | more than 7 years ago | (#17523978)

For anyone who's been following the recent debates about Vista, this is already old news. But now the mainstream seems to be picking up on it.

What the article doesn't mention is that, probably precisely for this reason, there seems to be an agreement between Sony and Microsoft that HDCP protection won't actually be required by Blu-Ray discs until at least 2010, maybe even 2012. [arstechnica.com] Remember, it's the disc that actually needs to require it, the operating system only provides this as an option.

That doesn't make the system anymore pleasing though. I wonder how far Microsoft will actually get with it. Customers do seem to get upset with this, and it wouldn't be the first time Microsoft has had to make "concessions" because of public criticism.

Peter Gutmann's paper [auckland.ac.nz] on Vista's content protection is really recommended reading, even if it's a bit polemic. And nothing beats Microsoft's own document [microsoft.com] , written by the same guy that was interviewed for Times Online.

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524070)

What the article doesn't mention is that, probably precisely for this reason, there seems to be an agreement between Sony and Microsoft that HDCP protection won't actually be required by Blu-Ray discs until at least 2010, maybe even 2012. Remember, it's the disc that actually needs to require it, the operating system only provides this as an option.

To me this raises two questions. 1) what about HD-DVD? 2) is this so-called agreement on paper?

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (1)

Renegade Lisp (315687) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524170)

To me this raises two questions. 1) what about HD-DVD? 2) is this so-called agreement on paper?

I can't comment on the first, but as to the second point: This is essentially a rumour that was "leaked" at a conference, and picked up by journalists. Read the arstechnica article linked above. It links to a German article that is the original source for this "rumour". Conveniently for Sony and Microsoft, now everybody seems to be assured that all of this won't be real for a while. I doubt you'd get anything on paper.

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (1)

iainl (136759) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524262)

HD-DVD is in a similar situation to Blu-Ray, except more so, if anything. Right now, some embarrassingly large percentage of HD-DVD players are the XBox 360 HD-DVD add-on drive (though not quite as many as the 95%+ of all Blu-Ray players that are PS3s). These 360s are outputting the HD signal over analogue output, because there IS no digital output on the 360.

So turning on ICT would break the HD image for the majority of viewers; a pretty silly thing to do.

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (-1)

Moofie (22272) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524528)

And neither Microsoft nor the "content providers" would ever do anything silly, would they?

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524164)

Does anyone know if current HD TVs are capable of playing HDCP DRMed content from Vista (or any other source)? I know that that HDREADY logo is supposed to mean that the answer is yes, but it's common for computer equipment (e.g. networking gear) to be incompatible even though all the kit is supposed to support the same standards. Does anyone have any practical experience with getting HDCP to work? Does anyone know if the standard is precise enough that early implementations are likely to interoperate?

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (1)

iainl (136759) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524234)

"Does anyone know if current HD TVs are capable of playing HDCP DRMed content from Vista (or any other source)?"

Yes, for the most part. I know some people have had problems, but these are usually solvable by either returning the faulty hardware, or in some cases people are just running really long cables to front-projection units, and had to use shorter ones to ensure the handshaking was good enough.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are pretty minority products right now, but loads of people have DVD players that upscale over HDMI.

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (1)

Renegade Lisp (315687) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524240)

Does anyone know if current HD TVs are capable of playing HDCP DRMed content from Vista (or any other source)? I know that that HDREADY logo is supposed to mean that the answer is yes, but it's common for computer equipment (e.g. networking gear) to be incompatible even though all the kit is supposed to support the same standards.

Peter Gutmann has stated that your concerns hit the nail on the head. There are at least some monitors that are definitely not HDCP-enabled, even though the manufacturer claims otherwise. Plus, this is an issue that can't easly be rectified. You can't just buy an add-on device for HDCP, it has to be right inside the monitor, because the data stream must be encrypted right until it reaches the pixels.

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (3, Funny)

nuzak (959558) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524370)

> There are at least some monitors that are definitely not HDCP-enabled, even though the manufacturer claims otherwise.

[CUT TO: the Construct (empty but for Neo and Trinity)]

"'kay, so whaddya need?"

"Lawsuits. Lots of lawsuits".

[Immediately, the construct is filled with endless rows of grey-suited lawyers with briefcases]

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (5, Insightful)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524608)

Yeah, but it's not just monitors. Like the parent said, every piece of equipment that the data passes through must be HDCP-enabled, right? And this situation isn't entirely Microsoft's fault, now is it? The OS claims support for HDCP, so it must fully support the standard.

What people are whining and complaining about is that Microsoft is actually following a standard. These same people are the ones that complain when Microsoft doesn't follow other standards like CSS2. It's just that the standard they are following happens to be one that implements DRM, and now they're going on about how "Oh, gee, they fully-implemented the standard!"

*sigh*

Here's the answer: don't buy HD-DVDs and BDs that require HDCP. Duh. Vote with your feet. If enough people really put their money where their mouth is (as opposed to what they normally do, which is just paying lip-service), and truly advocated that others do the same, it will make a difference. Sadly, most people are so weak in their convictions that when their favorite movie comes out requiring HDCP, they will just buy it no matter what.

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (1)

Lehk228 (705449) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524696)

You can't just buy an add-on device for HDCP, it has to be right inside the monitor, because the data stream must be encrypted right until it reaches the pixels.

just like you can't buy an addon to play burned PS2 or xbox games?

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (3, Informative)

robosmurf (33876) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524508)

There is a lot of confusion about this still, but I don't think what the ars technica article says is what you think it means.

What the article says is that there is an agreement not to implement the Image Constraint Token (ICT) yet. This is a token that forces a downgrade of analog signals. This is why the Xbox 360 can have a HD-DVD add-on without a HDMI port.

This does not apply to digital output. Even if the discs don't have this set, you still need HDCP if you want to get a digital link to the monitor.

So, if you are using VGA to the monitor you are ok for the moment, but stuffed if you are using DVI or HDMI without HDCP.

Of course, this understanding comes from reading the AACS licence agreement (freely available from the aacsla website). Unfortunately, this agreement is as clear as mud, so I may be wrong.

Either you are mistaken or Marsh is mistaken. (3, Interesting)

dpbsmith (263124) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524562)

Microsoft's representative could easily have chosen to say "In the future, by the year 2010, HD DVD and Blu-ray disks will certainly require such protection."

What he DID say according to TFA [timesonline.co.uk] was "At the moment HD DVD and Blu-ray Discs certainly require such protection."

I don't know why he would be misinformed, or why, given the importance of this issue to Microsoft, he would be less than careful about what he said.

Most likely, current disks really don't play, because of some complexity in the interaction between Vista's DRM software and hardware that results in an illogical and unintended consequence.

If current disks will play, why on earth wouldn't he have taken great pains to say so and to stress the point.

Re:Either you are mistaken or Marsh is mistaken. (4, Informative)

robosmurf (33876) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524760)

Without the Image Constraint Token (which is not yet implemented), you can get full resolution output over analog (e.g. VGA or component).

However, even if the disc doesn't have this set, you still can't get unencrypted digital output (such as DVI without HDCP). Unencrypted digital output is simply not one of the allowed output formats of AACS encrypted media.

Thus, you will be able to currently play discs at full resolution over VGA, but (without new HDCP capable hardware) it simply won't work over DVI.

Brothers and sisters, we must spread the gospel! (1)

ClamIAm (926466) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524612)

there seems to be an agreement between Sony and Microsoft that HDCP protection won't actually be required by Blu-Ray discs until at least 2010, maybe even 2012

So basically what this means is that we have three (or at most six) years to get Joe Sixpack pissed off about this. All of us Slashdotters love to bitch and moan about the MAFIAA, but if we got off our collective asses and started making noise about this, we could probably prevent them from ever enabling this.

As for how to do this, well there's no one right way. Defective by Design [defectivebydesign.org] is obviously relevant, as is the EFF [eff.org] . I think it would be effective for people to develop a little presentation that could be given to people, so those of us who belong to e.g. civic organizations could give a little talk to people about this stuff. Writing your elected officials is probably a good idea as well.

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524738)

Remember, it's the disc that actually needs to require it, the operating system only provides this as an option.

Sorry, I don't understand. How can the disc require HDCP? The OS is the only thing that can enforce such a requirement... how can the disc know that the computer does or does not have HDCP? The disc isn't software, it's data the OS reads and does with as it pleases, whether that be enforcing DRM standards or not. So I'm missing something.

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (1)

Dachannien (617929) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524888)

My question (modulo a sibling post explaining that this is actually about clenching shut the a[nalog]-hole via ICT) is how Microsoft will implement such an agreement with Sony if/when it comes into effect. Will this be a forced patch of some sort, or does Vista phone home every time you play a Blu-Ray disc to see whether the ICT agreement is now being enforced?

fr1st ps0t (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17523980)

fr1st ps0t

Again the same mistake (-1, Redundant)

robcfg (1005359) | more than 7 years ago | (#17523992)

Haven't they learned already that DRM and other protection schemes are pretty useless and they only damage the legal consumer? If they like to overprotect the data, I'm not buying it, it so easy.

Re:Again the same mistake (1)

Sancho (17056) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524242)

It's not a mistake.

They can use legislation and bully tactics to reduce filesharing networks. They can't do much to stop casual copying, except through these technological measures. They're fighting against both forms of copyright infringement doing this.

I'd say that fair use gets killed in the crossfire, but when you get right down to it, they don't care about your fair use rights and probably wish that such exemptions to copyright didn't exist, anyway.

Re:Again the same mistake (1)

EggyToast (858951) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524770)

If fair use truly comes under fire, there'll be far more of an outcry than what we hear now. Hopefully, at least. I will admit that when I was in college I had a few professors who had "booklets" that were simply photocopies of recently published works that cost dozens of dollars, to cover licensing fees. But it's for educational use, and therefore should be exempt.

Reviewers would be the next party to worry, but they usually get things for free in order to pump up promotion.

Hmm, now that I mention it, their slow widdling away at fair use seems to be working surprisingly well...

Re:Again the same mistake (1)

Luscious868 (679143) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524560)

If they like to overprotect the data, I'm not buying it, it so easy.

You may not but plenty of consumers have already proven they will. [apple.com] .

Yet another reason... (0, Flamebait)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 7 years ago | (#17523994)

...yet another reason to RUSH right out, and buy Vista!!!

Boy, they just keep offering compelling reasons to rush out and be an early adopter don't they kids?

Re:Yet another reason... (1)

figleaf (672550) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524216)

What is your point? It won't work in any other operating systems either.

If the content provider has flaged that content protection is required then you can only play it in full fidelity with a protected path.

Re:Yet another reason... (-1, Troll)

Sparr0 (451780) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524268)

Yeah, right. How's the weather in SonyMicrosoftLand?

Re:Yet another reason... (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524808)

Cool. So, sign me up for the content protected discs that I can play without HDCP. Go on, show me some. Or are we just... what's that word, oh yes, trolling?

Re:Yet another reason... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524520)

Why do comments like this get modded up? This is an obvious troll with absolutely no point and all it's doing is attempting furthering a biased opinion.

What if.... (3, Funny)

SuperStretchy (1018064) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524008)

Yikes! I'll give it about a week for someone to crack it, but in the mean time, I'd like to know if this also restricts divx encoded avi's and/or games outputted to the tv. I love watching my downloaded copies of Sponge Bob and playing Hello Kitty Island Adventure on the big screen!

Typical (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524096)

I love watching my downloaded copies of Sponge Bob and playing Hello Kitty Island Adventure on the big screen!

Whenever there is an article critical of Microsoft, there is always some astroturfer pointing out how it is a good thing.

Re:What if.... (1)

Spritzer (950539) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524114)

No. The disc itself sets this optional disfunctionality. The OS must be told to require HDCP by the media itself.

Re:What if.... (1)

SuperStretchy (1018064) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524206)

ty for the clarification. The impression that came through was that the OS req'd the disk to be HDCP'd. Ironic since some networks require everyone to be DHCP'd

Re:What if.... (1)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524372)

Whatever definition of irony you used to construct that sentence should be stabbed, burned, and dipped in strong acids.

Re:What if.... (1)

SuperStretchy (1018064) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524430)

by reversing the order of the first two letters of the anagram it reverses the role of who's in charge in another system.

Stating the Obvious (1)

Zaphod2016 (971897) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524012)

DRM, and other artificial technologies designed to protect intellectual property, hinder growth, both economically and technologically.

Viva los FOSS anarchistas! Viva el revolution!

Re:Stating the Obvious (1)

Salsaman (141471) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524128)

I think you'll find it's *la* revolucion.

YARNTBV! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524014)

Yet Another Reason Not To Buy Vista!

Article subject is wrong (5, Informative)

the computer guy nex (916959) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524036)

"Dave Marsh, the lead program manager for video at Microsoft, said that if the PC used a digital connection to link with the monitor or television, then it would require the highest level of content protection, known as HDCP, to play the discs. If it did not have such protection, Vista would shut down the signal, he said. "

The next-gen DVD's will work with Vista, but you need to have HDCP compatible hardware if the HD DVD has the HDCP flag.

Plus, AFAIK, there are 0 HD DVD's that have this flag enabled. Rumored it will not be activated on any disc before 2010, if at all.

Re:Article subject is wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524178)

...but you need to have HDCP compatible hardware...
Only for a retarded definition of "need".

Re:Article subject is wrong (5, Informative)

Andy Dodd (701) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524224)

"Plus, AFAIK, there are 0 HD DVD's that have this flag enabled. Rumored it will not be activated on any disc before 2010, if at all."

It may be disabled for Blu-Ray, but it is definately enabled for HD-DVD, which is exactly why the guy that wrote BackupHDDVD did it - his computer wouldn't play his HD-DVDs in their original format, despite a brand new monitor and a less-than-a-year-old video card.

Re:Article subject is wrong (1)

powerlord (28156) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524796)

Wait ... let me get this straight.

Sony is working with the Blu-Ray group to push their standard, which decided (as a group), that they weren't going to enable the flag (just yet), so that people could get used to the format, and so as not to penalize early adopters on HD (TVs, Computers, etc.).

MicroSoft is working with the HD-DVD consortium, who decided "screw the early adopters", upgrade your hardware, or take a hike.

So what you're saying is that on Vista, MicroSoft's "Next Gen" operating system, Sony backed Blu-Ray disks are more likely to work than MS backed HD-DVD.

Re:Article subject is wrong (5, Informative)

robosmurf (33876) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524238)

I don't think that's true. If I recall correctly, the Image Constraint Token (which is what is not yet activated) affects only the analog outputs.

Even if the disc doesn't have this set, you'll still need HDCP if you want a digital link to the monitor.

Re:Its a scam (5, Insightful)

goodtim (458647) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524710)

This is slashdot, and still we aren't really sure how HDCP works. I fear the worst for Joe Blow consumer.

Re:Its a scam (1)

robosmurf (33876) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524816)

My information comes from reading the AACS and HDCP licencing agreements.

Even having done that, I'm still not sure what the requirements actually are.

The current HD standards are a complete mess. For instance HD-DVD still hasn't sorted out whether it will have region-coding. This is despite HD-DVD devices already shipping.

Re:Article subject is wrong (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524320)

The next-gen DVD's will work with Vista, but you need to have HDCP compatible hardware if the HD DVD has the HDCP flag.

Get a clue. This isn't just about DVDs.

From the article here: http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp x?ArticleID=8498&PageNum=2 [emedialive.com]

As a consumer, you have no control over when HDCP is used to encrypt content between your display and cable/satellite set-top box. In fact, even the movie studios don't have explicit control over HDCP activation. The real power broker in the HDCP sweepstakes is your cable or satellite provider. The content owner may place the Redistribution Control Descriptor (aka Broadcast Flag, RCD) or DTCP descriptor into the stream, but it is the provider that controls what security protocol is enforced when these flags are detected in the stream [see "Checkered Flag," www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?Artic leID=5098].


Then you know something Microsoft doesn't know (1)

dpbsmith (263124) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524408)

...because TFA says that according to Marsh, "At the moment HD DVD and Blu-ray Discs certainly require such protection."

"At the moment" are his words. He could have said "in the future" but he said "at the moment."

uhuh (2, Funny)

scenestar (828656) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524038)

And we can also be sure that Some 'Potential-customers' May refuse Work With Vista as well.

Re:uhuh (1)

solitu (1045848) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524290)

This is not particular to Vista. Every OS is required the follow the DVD forum's requirements otherwise you get degraded playback on every OS.

Migrate to GNU/Linux, not Vista (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524040)

Our company did last year, cities of Vienna and Munich did, French parliament did, it should work out very nicely for you too. Our former XP users love KDE.

No need to put yourself through pains when you can improve security, save money and achieve a good deal of vendor independence all at the same time. Why support the Microsoft monopoly by paying ridiculous prices for bug ridden software with DRM restrictions, when you can run Free software on the industry standard (and thus inexpensive) hardware?

Knowing everything I know now, I only regret that we did not migrate to GNU/Linux sooner.

Re:Migrate to GNU/Linux, not Vista (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524668)

On Windows, the content may not run if your PC does not meet the security standards set by the content provider. On Linux, the content will not run. From the user's standpoint, the 'DRM' on Linux is far, far worse.

Orwell was right (4, Funny)

macadamia_harold (947445) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524046)

If you want a picture of the future, imagine DRM stomping on a human face -- forever.

Re:Orwell was right (1)

zesty42 (1041348) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524862)

Only in this case, the human is handing over money to continue it.

except.... (2, Insightful)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524048)

If it did not have such protection, Vista would shut down the signal, he said.

At least until that crack hit's the bittorrent sites that disables this "feature".

Stupid! (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524098)

Just stupid...

Oh noes! (3, Funny)

nacturation (646836) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524106)

No Next Gen? What will I do without being able to watch Picard and crew?!?
 

Recent Headlines (5, Insightful)

flickwipe (954150) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524138)

Some 'Next-Gen' DVDs May Not Work With Vista

EMI Considers Abandoning DRM on CDs

No Ceasefire in DVD Format Battle



Today is a good day for DRM to die...

Re:Recent Headlines (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524452)

DRM: "So DVD John do you expect me to die?"
DVD John: "No Mr DRM I expect you to crack .. then be a cheap funeral." *evil laugh*

Re:Recent Headlines (1)

iminplaya (723125) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524798)

Today is a good day for DRM to die...

Don't bet on it.

"Sometimes the magic works. Sometimes it doesn't."

Title... (1)

appleguru (1030562) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524140)

Yes can someone please fix the incorrect title?

"the studios' new operating system" (2, Interesting)

nickos (91443) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524144)

Microsoft has built a component into the studios' new operating system, Vista

I think that just about sums it up. Why is MS in the studios' pockets anyway?

Re:"the studios' new operating system" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524532)

Because being able to play "next-gen" video content makes it sound like Vista is a compelling upgrade?

I mean, there aren't any other reasons to upgrade, are there?

It's a bullet-point, plain and simple.

Re:"the studios' new operating system" (1)

AArmadillo (660847) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524800)

I don't know about 'aren't any other compelling reasons to upgrade', but as far as being able to play next-gen video content, that's entirely correct. With these regulations in place, content providers will feel safe releasing content at will for the Vista platform. More interesting -- content providers will not feel safe releasing content for other platforms, unless they implement similar protections. In essence, you will only be able to play this content legally on Windows Vista. Good luck getting someone to switch to Mac or Linux if they want to play high definition video using their computer.

Re:"the studios' new operating system" (1)

powerlord (28156) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524884)

Good luck getting someone to switch to Mac or Linux if they want to play high definition video using their computer.


You know that Apple is part of the group behind Blu-Ray, right?

I bet they start including Blu-Ray drives "Real Soon" as an option.

Lawsuit! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524210)

Then when a crack is published we'll hear about lawsuits and litigation for days, weeks, months and years from its release.

Bill should just save us the trouble and buy us all neural implants so they can delete our memories after watching movies so we have to watch them again.

Slow news day? (2, Insightful)

yesthatmcgurk (1011297) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524252)

Speculation about a yet-to-be-released operating system not being compatible with yet-to-be-released video discs on yet-to-be-released hardware? Here's a news bit for you--monkeys may fly out of my ass. News at 10 on /.

You mean Peter Gutmann was RIGHT? (3, Insightful)

dpbsmith (263124) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524272)

Mind-boggling.

I have to admit that even though Peter Gutmann is a respected computer security expert while I know virtually nothing about Vista, I was inclined to think his analysis [auckland.ac.nz] just had to be wrong. He had to be misunderstanding something, or positing a hypothetical situation that would never arise with real-world commercial gear, or something like that. Microsoft simply couldn't be that stupid.

Now it turns out that he's right, and that presumably-unintended but not-unforeseeable consequences of Vista's DRM scheme will prevent it from being used in the one way you'd think Microsoft would most want it to be used. It is precisely the enthusiastic with money to devote to their video hobby who are likely to be the early adopters of PCs as home video platforms.

Microsoft is coming perilously close to providing the platform that secures protected perfectly content by preventing _anyone_ from viewing it.

OK, for us who arent *nix experts. (4, Insightful)

Churla (936633) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524278)

Could someone please elaborate for me a Lunix/Unix/OSX system which we can get currently which would play an HD-DVD disc with the HDCP flag up without requiring HDCP compliant DRM in place within the OS?

It seems MS is being bashed for following the requirements being set forth by the media producers. Whereas a number of MS practices may be less than honorable, in this case from what I see they are simply holding to the requirements of the format standard.

All in all I think the media companies like Sony have been given enough DRM rope and are within a year or two of effectively fashioning themselves a noose from it, but that's just MHO on the topic.

When Microsoft is doing something wrong, (1)

dpbsmith (263124) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524362)

... it is not an adequate defense for them to say they were "just following orders."

Re:When Microsoft is doing something wrong, (1)

Churla (936633) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524678)

So if they have the options of :
A) Support the format with the restrictions the owners of the format require.
B) Don't support the formats they know will be wanted by the users

They should choose B?

They aren't "following orders" in this case. They are doing what apparently is legally required for them to be allowed to support the format. If you want to vilify MS for things they choose to do which are malevolent (like in my opinion having 6 different versions of an OS which are simply licensing flags on the same codebase would constitute) they go right ahead and take them to task. But this doesn't seem to be one of those instances.

Re:OK, for us who arent *nix experts. (5, Interesting)

cfulmer (3166) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524546)

The DRM component is dictated by a maze of legal agreements among the HD patent holders, the content industry and the consumer electronics industry. Vista's limitations are, in part, dictated by such agreements -- without them, you would not be able to buy a blue-ray or HD-DVD drive for your computer.

The problem, though, is that this situation did not need to be this way -- Microsoft could have teamed up with the electronics industry to say, effectively, "go to H*ll" to the content producers. The content producers would then have had to choose between (A) not releasing HD content or (B) releasing a non-DRM'd version. Their claim is that they would choose (A). But, they're full of crap -- doing so would deny them a new revenue stream in the face of increased competitive pressures. If the market didn't force them to switch, their stockholders would have.

[Note one problem: Sony is in both camps.]

Re:OK, for us who arent *nix experts. (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524784)

It seems MS is being bashed for following the requirements being set forth by the media producers.

Microsoft's long term strategy is to be the gateway to media, i.e. be the holder of necessary DRM technologies on which the entire industry depends, so that they get a few pennies every time any media is commercially transacted.

They are also, you might note, actually one of the producers of media; with their own interests in protection.

As such if you if you look at the member list of most media standards organizations you will find Microsoft prominent as one of the founders of that organization.

They are not merely flotsom in the stream, they have been the ones in the background egging on the producers to adopt various digital rights technologies; with claims that they can actually produce and enforce it.

KFG

What's really going to happen... (1)

appleguru (1030562) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524286)

They're not going to not allow HDCP content to play over non-hdcp compliant outputs at full resolution. Instead, they'll downscale to something like 480p for analog and non-protected digital connections (The article here [microsoft.com] touches on this a bit, saying it's up to the content provider and specifying a limitaion based on total number of pixels in the image.

Re:What's really going to happen... (2, Insightful)

FrostyCoolSlug (766239) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524470)

I don't understand.. I buy the hardware, I buy my HD-DVD / Blu-ray disk, after kitting my computer out with an expensive player, just to be told that I have to watch the video in a crap resolution. I personally consider this inexcusable. If they could at least guarantee that legal copies will work, then I couldn't care less what DRM protection they have, but to be told that my hardware, designed for playing high definition disks wont play high definition disks, is just absurd.

No DRM'ed Next-Gen DVDs will work with Linux (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524308)

Slashdotters gloat over this, while Linux can't play such discs at all.
Oh, and Mac OSX will have the same DRM support as Vista wrt such discs, so Apple fanboys don't have much leg to stand on wrt gloating either.

Re:No DRM'ed Next-Gen DVDs will work with Linux (0)

freedom_surfer (203272) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524598)

AC bravery as usual...

DVD's can't play on Linux because of encryption...oh wait...

Along the same lines...
  HD-DVD and Blu-Ray AACS DRM Cracked
  http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/ 28/0259244 [slashdot.org]

But Linux won't be able to play them ever eh? Enjoy your Vista...

I'll continue to enjoy having MY computer do what I want it to do, instead of the other way around... =)

Re:No DRM'ed Next-Gen DVDs will work with Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524750)

Lol. For starters AACS was not cracked! That article you referred was a hoax IIRC. Anyways, there is no way to play HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disks in Linux.

Re:No DRM'ed Next-Gen DVDs will work with Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524758)

If you actually RTFA, you will know AACS has not cracked.

The person just got that movie's (Full Metal Jackey) unique key. You will need PowerDVD to get the key.

You still need Windows to watch your movie.

Luckily (1)

Omeger (939765) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524346)

I have a CRT monitor with an analog VGA connection. HD FTW for me! :-D

Re:Luckily (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524530)

actually, no. the analog people get reduced to 480P if the DRM bit is set.

Re:Luckily (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524848)

I have a CRT monitor with an analog VGA connection.

Oh, hey. Thanks for being a good citizen and turning yourself in. The helis are on the way. Enjoy your stay in the beautiful Caribbean.

KFG

Aweso8e fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524428)

to 7he or2iginal later seen in

Fortunately my multimedia PC won't run Vista (1)

jimstapleton (999106) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524462)

It'll be either FreeBSD or if I have too much trouble getting that working, XP.

Cool solution (1)

Down_in_the_Park (721993) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524494)

If somebody would have told me, when you use DOS and its successors you will finally support the media companys, I may have used Atari...

An OS selling company is enforcing the media industry "rights", whithout even asking the customer nor the companys (Ok, I guess they talked to them)? Well, that's cool

But we all knew this already... (1)

Warlock7 (531656) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524500)

The HDCP/HDMI standard is very restrictive and VISTA has always been touted as fully supporting it. This is not news, this is just disturbing fact.

Wrong! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17524544)

It will not shut the signal down, just downconvert it to 420p.

Can't stop the signal (1)

tehSpork (1000190) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524568)

If it did not have such protection, Vista would shut down the signal, he said.

You can't stop the signal!

Consumers won't be too pleased with having to buy all new gear to watch their newfangled DVDs, so waiting until HDCP compatibility is widespread is a good way for the movie companies to avoid the public backlash. That being said, my dad's plasma is HDCP compatible and he purchased it over a year ago. It's the computers that are being slow to catch onto the HDCP bandwagon. Neither of my LCDs is HDCP compliant, nor is my graphics card (these components aren't even a year old yet!).

Regardless, if the DRM can be circumvented you bet that I will be taking advantage of that. If I buy a movie I don't want my hardware and operating system to restrict me from viewing the content I paid for in the way that I choose.

I guess we'll just have to copy them first (1)

Maltheus (248271) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524584)

I mean seriously, why don't they just start offering cash rewards to encourage people to break copy restrictions?

Not particularly unusual (2, Interesting)

vanyel (28049) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524606)

My Denon receiver (and/or the HD Tivo I have hooked up to it) does the same thing. I tried to hook up an LCD monitor to it so I could twiddle my Tivo without firing up the projector --- no dice. What's going to be interesting is seeing how virtual machine software handles virtual drives...

Bad news... (1)

mattgoldey (753976) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524728)

for the 3 people that have purchased HD-DVDs.

-1 offtopic, -1 flamebait. (1, Insightful)

rdewalt (13105) | more than 7 years ago | (#17524842)

I don't have an HD TV, nor do I really have intent to get one in the next year. Same goes for the HD players.

As long as studios treat me like a video copying pirate, why should I give them more money?

What's the deal with my TV and my DVD player needing to authenticate to each other, and the signal from one to the other being encrypted to be sent the few mere feet down the cable? I bought the disk, I bought the player and the television. Do I have to ask -permission- to watch this stuff now?

I don't buy DVDs much, if at all anymore. At most one every three or four months. I used to get one or two a week.

And then I ran out of content that I wanted to purchase.

But I guess to the studios, the fact that I stopped buying movies, doesn't mean "I don't like what pablum you are shoving at me" it means "He must be pirating movies"

No, it means that I find the shit you are cranking out displeasing, and I'm spending my money elsewhere...

I'll invest in the next generation (and that's what it is, when you look at the costs of it) of entertainment, when I find "next gen" entertainment worth my money.
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