Beta

Slashdot: News for Nerds

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Canon-Toshiba Joint Venture On SED Collapses

kdawson posted more than 7 years ago | from the future-so-bright dept.

Displays 93

An anonymous reader writes "SED (Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display) displays were supposed to be the brightest, most energy-efficient TVs to hit the market, so Canon and Toshiba created a joint venture in 2004 to capitalize on the emerging technology. The resulting entity, SED Inc., was sued in 2005 by Nano-Proprietary, the company that licensed SED technology to Canon in 1999. Nano-Proprietary says that the deal it signed with Canon doesn't extend to Toshiba. Rather than continue to fight the lawsuit and delay SED even further, Canon has now decided to buy out Toshiba's stake in SED Inc." Canon says that SED TVs will be delivered on time in Q4 of this year, but volume manufacturing (which Toshiba was supposed to handle) is being rethought.

cancel ×

93 comments

Anyone seen one? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17599660)

Has anyone seen one of these? How do they compare to the top of the line LCD and Plasma screens? Is the picture hugely better, or are the main benefits in the power saving?

Re:Anyone seen one? (2, Informative)

Jeffrey Baker (6191) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599716)

The picture is hugely better than LCD and roughly as good as a really good plasma (e.g. Pioneer PureVision).

Re:Anyone seen one? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17599792)

Hmm okay, sounds nice. I have a Sony Bravia LCD screen which is very nice, and does compare with plasma in pretty much all but black levels. So this probably won't make me want to upgrade, as I chose this over plasma anyway, but will be nice to see.

Re:Anyone seen one? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17600336)

A really good plasma. Probably talking about the high-end, at least $7000, or so. The Bravias are no where close to those.

Re:Anyone seen one? (1)

EllisDees (268037) | more than 7 years ago | (#17603380)

I'm pretty sure this is better than any plasma you can get. It is equal in quality to a CRT, which still have the best picture quality, just much, much thinner.

Re:Anyone seen one? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17599738)

The premise behind it is the same premise as a CRT, only instead of having one electron gun, they use [insert nanotechnology buzzwords here] to make lots of them. Since the beam doesn't have to be bent all the way across the picture, the tube no longer needs to be as deep as before. Because of the CRT-type design, it doesn't have the backlight problems lcds and plasmas have, nor the angle viewing issues. Depending on the phosphor design, it will probably have the burn in issues-CRTs had.

Re:Anyone seen one? (2, Informative)

Jeffrey Baker (6191) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599756)

Plasmas don't have a backlight and they don't have problems with viewing angle. The light is produced by an excited phosphor, just like in a CRT or SED.

Re:Anyone seen one? (1)

Hamoohead (994058) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599900)

And if you don't mind the burn, your good to go.

Re:Anyone seen one? (2, Informative)

Gadget_Guy (627405) | more than 7 years ago | (#17601396)

And if you don't mind the burn, your good to go.

Your information is out of date. Modern plasma sets do not suffer from burn-in. I used to be paranoid about what I had on my TV, but now I realise that I do not have to worry.

I leave DVD menus on for hours (accidentally), play games, watch 4x3 shows galore, leave it paused for ages and there is no sign of any image retention. I have even left very bright setup menus from my PVR on overnight on several occasions. Every so often I put a few test images on screen to check that the colours are consistent across the screen. There has never been the slightest problem found.

I have a mid-range Panasonic, so can't vouch for the quality at the cheapie end of the market.

Re:Anyone seen one? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17601524)

Maybe he ment the energy burn. :-D

Re:Anyone seen one? (1)

Ucklak (755284) | more than 7 years ago | (#17602458)

I read somewhere that the 'no burn in' factor of the newer plasmas is due to the fact that if the on board CPU determines a burn in a particular area, it adjusts the rest of the screen at a higher intensity to compensate thereby darkening the whole image slightly after the compensation.

I don't remember if I read on online or in a magazine. Sorry for no source.

Re:Anyone seen one? (1)

Hamoohead (994058) | more than 7 years ago | (#17616572)

Out of date? Hmmm. . . I'll tell my customers that next time I have one ask why they have burn on their screen. Which is quite frequent. I should clarify. I am a technician. I've done this for 30 years. How about you?

Re:Anyone seen one? (1)

theshowmecanuck (703852) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600094)

Specific to this, I was wondering about resolution. The screen resolution on my 19" LCD needs to be 1280x1024 for best results. A CRT can be used at various resolutions without degrading the picture quality. Will that be the case with these new CRT-like screens? With my sight I would prefer 1152x864 but right now I can't because it starts to look worse because of the nature of the LCD screen. However the convenience of more desk space etc. outweighs this until I get older. ;-)

Re:Anyone seen one? (1)

frieko (855745) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600302)

Fix your DPI settings. Physical size of text shouldn't be affected by resolution changes.

Re:Anyone seen one? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17604470)

Do you hear that woooshing sound going over your head?

Re:Anyone seen one? (4, Informative)

eis271828 (842849) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600332)

CRTs have more resolutions because of their analog nature. They naturally have smooth blurring at many resolutions. LCDs and other fixed-pixel technologies control each pixel exactly. All smoothing would have to be done algorithmically (see various image processing topics such as Gaussian blurring/smoothing), which increases expense and isn't always the best solution - think text display. I would say a better solution to reducing resolution would be to increase text size or use the accessibility tools such as the magnifying glass.

Re:Anyone seen one? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 7 years ago | (#17601776)

There are two reasons for wanting to run a display at a resolution lower than its maximum:
  1. Your GUI isn't resolution independent, and so maps 1pt to a fixed number of pixels instead of a fixed fraction of an inch (there are 72 PostScript points in an inch, and this is the common standard). X11 has been resolution independent since the start, but some idiots who write toolkits forgot this. Windows isn't really (it scales fonts but not bitmaps, making everything look wrong), although I think this is fixed in Vista. OS X was resolution-independent from the start (actually, before the start; NeXTSTEP was resolution independent in the '80s), although this has been turned off so it doesn't break old applications that aren't.
  2. Your GPU is not able to support your monitor at the maximum resolution (perhaps it can't handle bi-cubic filtering on HD video streams). The solution to this is to get a slightly less ancient GPU; this hasn't been a real concern even for laptops running large external displays for some years.
Since neither of these really applies anymore, it is not a huge problem. It's not like ten years ago when you needed a TFT that did 800x600 because that was the highest resolution you could run Quake...

Re:Anyone seen one? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17603700)

"Since neither of these really applies anymore, it is not a huge problem. It's not like ten years ago when you needed a TFT that did 800x600 because that was the highest resolution you could run Quake..."

Um, I can't run Oblivion smoothly at anything above 800x600, that's with a GF6600 that isn't exactly ancient. Luckily I'm using a CRT, but when I upgrade I expect I'll be running my LCD at lower res quite often.

Re:Anyone seen one? (5, Informative)

nacturation (646836) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600134)

Has anyone seen one of these? How do they compare to the top of the line LCD and Plasma screens? Is the picture hugely better, or are the main benefits in the power saving?
I think the power savings is a side-effect. Check out this glowing review:

http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679235p1.html [ign.com]

Contrast ratios were 10,000:1 for the prototype and they claim it'll be 100,000:1 in the production version. And at a supposed 1 ms response time. Even if the contrast claim is off by a factor of 5, it's still way more than any display on the market today.
 

Re:Anyone seen one? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17600360)

It's way more than any LCD display in the market, but not CRT displays.

Side-by-side showdown (3, Informative)

D4C5CE (578304) | more than 7 years ago | (#17601578)

Check out this glowing review: http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679235p1.html [ign.com]
...and this side-by-side comparison against plasma and LCD, along with images explaining how this is actually a kind of "flat-screen CRT with millions of ray-guns": http://www.behardware.com/art/imprimer/593/ [behardware.com]

Suitability for extended viewing (1)

gumpish (682245) | more than 7 years ago | (#17603168)

Fast response times and high contrast ratios are all fine and good, but if SEDs burn my retinas after extended hours of use like CRTs do, then you can have my LCD when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

Jerks (2, Interesting)

QueePWNzor (1044224) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599668)

It looks like a good idea (the TVs.) Unfortunately, legal "mumbo jumbo" has, as always, gotten in the way. I don't see why Cannon had to give up, they could have probably dealt with it in court. Now the world can't replace their 2-day old, state-of-the-art 50in. plasma high-def sets. (sniffle) I don't like the idea of this split, and hopefully they'll find some way to make it work out. But Toshiba will probably hate Cannon temporarily, especially with the "Canon had planned to exploit Toshiba for its 'mass-production technologies,'" remark. (They'll get over it, because Cannon will try to pay big $$$ for them to produce something else:) I simply don't get it. Toshiba will come up with an alternative within a year, all the switching engineers will quit ASAP, and Cannon will find a way to produce the sets, but will be in debt forevermore. I hate deals like this, and I doubt it will be nearly perfect in the long-run. Oh well.

Usage of the word exploit (2, Insightful)

SuperBanana (662181) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599956)

But Toshiba will probably hate Cannon temporarily, especially with the "Canon had planned to exploit Toshiba for its 'mass-production technologies,'" remark.

Exploit is a transitive verb with two meanings/usages. "To make productive use of", and "to use unfairly to one's advantage."

Re:Jerks (1)

yippiekiyeh (651923) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600774)

Good job Nano-Proprietary, All you have done is screw yourself and your technology in becoming the next biggest thing. Because we all know what a powerhouse the TV building company Canon is, you basically killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.

Can Cannon be evil for good here? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17601372)

I wonder if Cannon has bought an exclusive license to the tech. If so, they can hurt the patent trolls by sitting on the tech and not wasting any more money on it. From Cannon's POV they have to treat the licensing cost as lost money but if they needed Toshiba to manage volume production they are unlikely to make any profit from sales for years (because economies of scale won't help so they have to wait until tech advances enough to make MAKING the stuff cheaper).

'course they can't SAY they will do this because the trolls may come back with a damages claim, so you'd have to say "we will continue but won't be able to come to market with a sellable product because we've lost our manufacturing partner".

Well you know what they say,,, (1)

Guitarhero1000 (1007633) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599674)

If ya cant beat 'em, Buy 'em!

Re:Well you know what they say,,, (2, Interesting)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599744)

Except in this case it isn't taking over your enemy, it's ditching your friend. Canon didn't beat 'em, they capitulated, but made it good to their patner instead of dragging them down a hole.

KFG

Re:Well you know what they say,,, (1)

Guitarhero1000 (1007633) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599798)

Agreed, "If ya can't beat 'em, ditch 'em for somone else"

Re:Well you know what they say,,, (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599836)

. . .ditch 'em for somone else"

Someone they'll now have to subcontract at a flat rate to handle the manufacturing instead of getting cut in on the deal.

Gee, I wonder who has that sort of capacity?

KFG

And the wait just gets longer... (1)

Banzai042 (948220) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599682)

Well, guess this just means that we'll need to wait even longer for SED sets that anybody other than Bill Gates can afford.

Re:And the wait just gets longer... (1)

JFMulder (59706) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599786)

Actually, I think I read somewhere that prices on SED would drop faster than LCDs. They are cheaper to make apparently.

Re:And the wait just gets longer... (1)

multimed (189254) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599976)

I wouldn't count on that. I've heard that LCDs are cheaper to manufacture than CRTs and they're certainly not cheaper for consumers. Of course I have absolutely no source and a bit of googling didn't result in any info on it.

Re:And the wait just gets longer... (1)

Viper Daimao (911947) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600194)

i understand the high cost of lcd's partly comes from the high percentage of defects (dead pixels).

Re:And the wait just gets longer... (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 7 years ago | (#17601512)

"i understand the high cost of lcd's partly comes from the high percentage of defects (dead pixels)."

You bet. I bought a pair of 20" screens for home and a pair for work. Really good brand-name, too. Of the 4 LCDs, two had dead pixels. Of course, I had to prove that the number of dead pixels exceeded the threshold at which they'll accept a return, but the dark spot was pretty big. It would have been a huge distraction.

Re:And the wait just gets longer... (1)

jguthrie (57467) | more than 7 years ago | (#17603296)

My understanding is that the part of the CRT that's hard (and, therefore, expensive) to manufacture is the shadow mask, and SED's don't have a shadow mask, so a lower manufacturing cost is still something that could be hoped for. We'll have to see what happens. I've been watching the SED technology for a decade, and it's been a couple of years off that whole time.

On the other hand, you can get some really excellent deals on totally huge CRT's right now (like the 23 inch display I'm looking at right now that was bought refurbished for $110) as people convert to LCD's to get their desk back. I'm hoping to be able to buy a matched set of those for a dual-head computer I intend to get real soon now.

Interstesting (5, Funny)

master_kaos (1027308) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599752)

This display seems like a very interesting step forward. Huge Contrast ratios (in the tens of thousands), fast response time, and a very nice viewing angle. I just wonder how long after they hit the consumer market that they will be in the common living room. Besides the hardcore enthusiasts, people will not be anxious to give up their brand new LCD flat panel TV and replace it with one of these. Oh, and one thing they should test for in QA is how hard of a throw it can withstand by someone who lets go of their Wii Remote.

Actually... Even they are better then you think... (2, Informative)

Fallen Kell (165468) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600350)

Last displayed models had contrast in the millions, not tens of thousands... The reason, black is pretty much true black, i.e. no light emitted, only extremely limited bleed from pixels directly next to them due to the way the technology creates the light in the first place. LCD's have a backlight that can never really be gotten rid of until a per pixel backlight is created (or a per pixel block, i.e. every block of 4 or 16 pixels have their own controllable backlight).

The color space I believe is 24 bits, not the 10 bits that the best LCD have. This will really show itself when displaying colors in the magenta range.

I should be possible to place a refresh rate of 120Hz, but I do not know if they will do this. I think the limiting factor will be that they want to use the power savings of the set as a selling point, and having a refresh rate 2x the speed of the competition would mean you need to use almost 2x the power since that would mean sending 2x as many electrons through the nanotube guns of the emitters.

Viewing angles I believe are the same as for CRT based displays. It is essentially the same idea as a CRT, with the difference being that instead of a single gun that has magnets shape the electron gun waveform output to scan across the entire screen, the SED displays have 3 guns for each pixel (one for each of the sub-pixel colors). They still use an electron to excite a phosphor to emit a photon. The only difference is that the electrons are now being channeled and aimed using a nano-tube structure.

So it is truly the best of all worlds in terms of TV display technology, thin as a plasma, weight as a LCD, contrast and color space of the best CRTs, viewing angles of CRTs, resolution of LCDs/CRTs, and better power usage then any of them. Technically, it has the potential to blow away everything. But we all know that technology alone will not win the war. Cost considerations, usability, and reliability will all play a major role (as well as the ability to manufacture).

Re:Actually... Even they are better then you think (1)

Martin Blank (154261) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600538)

I think the limiting factor will be that they want to use the power savings of the set as a selling point, and having a refresh rate 2x the speed of the competition would mean you need to use almost 2x the power since that would mean sending 2x as many electrons through the nanotube guns of the emitters.

Why would the power increase that much? Maybe I'm not understanding part of the technology, but I would think that the electron stream would remain constant if there was no change in the color through a period of two cycles at the higher refresh rate. There may be a marginal increase in electricity use during a change in brightness level as an intermediary step may require more than would be used at the lower refresh rate, but I doubt that the overall use would be that much greater.

Re:Actually... Even they are better then you think (1)

mindesign (140529) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600744)

colour space is not bit depth, and bit depth does not affect gamut.
referenced bit depth is of 10 bits per channel [RGB]; 24 is silly number.
power usage is not per frame. other errors too drunk to continue.
clueless poster posting at length again. cheers.

Re:Actually... Even they are better then you think (1)

Fallen Kell (165468) | more than 7 years ago | (#17604308)

Actually color space and bit depth are intertwined. You can't fully display a certain color space without having the bit depth needed to reproduce all the color shades associated with the color space. I agree that 10 bit is very sufficient for TV use, but in the future, TV's and large monitors may very well converge, just as the convergence for media PC's is already happening now. This display technology is not limited to just TV's. It can and possibly will be used for other things such as graphics work and medical imaging.

Re:Actually... Even they are better then you think (1)

mindesign (140529) | more than 7 years ago | (#17606634)

this also is not quite correct. hopefully i can be helpful:
a colour space is mathematically defined (continuous, infinitely precise), defined for output-dependent (ie, component) standards by the chromaticity of the primaries. in other words, the ideal. the gamut is the radiometric limit from 0 to 100% intensity within that space. in other words, the real/measurable. the gamut can have concavities and even holes in it.

you could have a very accurate (to 4-bits) 4-bit display of sRGB or even Wide Gamut colour space; it's just not very useful. bit depth for a component colour space defines the granularity with which that space is quantised, whether by data or by display hardware. in one sense you are correct - perceptable error threshold (delta-E) is the main criteria when judging colour accuracy to a standard; there will always be some amount of error trying to match a mathematically-defined colour space. so you need both high (data) bit-depth and accurate (radiometrically) display of that data to achieve perceptual "fidelity".

the main ugly thing about LCDs is that the fluoro backlight is very spectrally spiky, leading to gross error (delta-E) when filtered through the LCD elements, even at a piddling 8-bit depth. also they have a raised black level due to leakage and hence chromaticity at low intensities is hugely compromised (ie - saturated darks of any colour are much closer to grey than they should be) LEDs also have a weird albeit more smooth spectral curve, but we only need to match the eye effectively, perfect black-body radiation, so it should be interesting to see what shows up to market with them.

disclaimer(?): i do colour science for a living. i can tell you that trying to adequately match/proof cinema film display with only LCDs and 8-bit display (DVI limit) is a real bitch. :)

Grasping at straws... (1)

Frosty Piss (770223) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599754)

This is a great example of non-news being used in an attempt to stir up some Patents Suck shit here. Nano-Proprietary owns some technology that Toshiba doesn't wish to pay the price for. This get's in the way of the SED venture, so Canon buys 'em out. Earth-shaking. Down with patents, blah, blah, blah...

Re:Grasping at straws... (4, Funny)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599844)

Yeah, well. They don't call it Nano-Proprietary for nothing, I guess. Now, if they'd called themselves Nano-GiveAwayTheCandyStore that would be different.

Re:Grasping at straws... (1)

Pooua (265915) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599860)

Frosty Piss: "This is a great example of non-news being used in an attempt to stir up some Patents Suck shit here."

You could take that view of the story, but I always perk up my ears when I heard anything on this technology. I have been waiting for it to be commercialized for about 15 years. I saw this particularly story, though, a week or 2 ago, maybe longer.

Explains a lot (4, Informative)

scdeimos (632778) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599894)

SED's were supposed to be in mass production and shipping in Japan in early 2006. I can see now why they haven't been actively marketed, and have even been pulled from US trade shows [macnn.com] .

Re:Explains a lot (3, Informative)

donaldm (919619) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600144)

I was hoping that SED would be the driving force in bringing down the costs of LCD and Plasma and competing competitively with them especially after all the hype.

There is a new/old (started early 1970's) technology called FED (Field Emission Display) which is being developed by Sony and they already are demoing 26in and 30in versions at 1080p, although they do need to demo much larger ones to be taken seriously.

However FED like SED may not be acceptable if the overall costs are not significantly cheaper than LCD and Plasma. Still this technology may force further cuts in the flat panel market, which IMHO can only be good for the consumer. If you don't have a HDTV yet and are contemplating buying one, a six months wait may save you a considerable amount of money.

Re:Explains a lot (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600338)

If you don't have a HDTV yet and are contemplating buying one, a six months wait may save you a considerable amount of money.

I got one. It was considerably cheaper than the products six months earlier. It was considerably more expensive than the products six months later. Sorta reminds me of computers, there's always a better deal on the horizon. This one is still way off from being a mass produced alternative, and I wouldn't think this has any impact before 2008-2009.

Re:Explains a lot (2, Funny)

deblau (68023) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600340)

hahahahah, sorry, every time I see SED and FED I think "smoke emitting diode" and "fire emitting diode". old joke from way back, goes with "light emitting resistor".

Re:Explains a lot (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 7 years ago | (#17601820)

they already are demoing 26in and 30in versions at 1080p, although they do need to demo much larger ones to be taken seriously.
Depends what they're for. For computer monitors, the number of pixels in a small area is very important. I find a 23" display is big enough, but the difference between a 100dpi and a 200dpi display is staggering in terms of visual quality (particularly when reading text; you can say goodbye to hacks like sub-pixel AA). Unfortunately, the cost of a 200dpi TFT is about two orders of magnitude (base 10) more than the cost of a 100dpi one. Anyone who can sell a reasonably cheap 200dpi (or more) flat screen computer display in the 23"-30" bracket is going to make a killing.

Re:Explains a lot (1)

2008 (900939) | more than 7 years ago | (#17603802)

1920x1080 at 23 inches is about 100 dpi...

Re:Explains a lot (1)

mrmeval (662166) | more than 7 years ago | (#17602124)

The idiots holding the patents seem to be the drag on it's release. It's ok the more crap they ladel on using their 'intellectual property' the less the industry will be willing to deal with them.

SED? (1)

SIGBUS (8236) | more than 7 years ago | (#17599916)

And here I thought that SED stood for "Smoke Emitting Diode." I don't think those would make very good displays, though.

Re:SED? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17600166)

It's better than shit emitting diodes.

Re:SED? (1)

Soko (17987) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600388)

It's better than shit emitting diodes.

I disagree. If you ponder the vast majority of 'content' delivered by the major networks to screens everywhere these days, Shit Emitting Diode is actually rather apropos.

Soko

Re:SED? (1)

Jonathan (5011) | more than 7 years ago | (#17602946)

And here I thought that SED stood for "Smoke Emitting Diode."
And I thought it was the old East German Communist Party [wikipedia.org] (Socialist Unity Party of Germany, or Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands, or SED) and wondered why Canon and Toshiba would be interested in that...

   

I want one now but... (4, Informative)

e144539 (556142) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600030)

A few months ago, I was wondering what happened to this tech, so I went searching. Turns out it has been in development for about 20 years, and it was first estimated to be out in the late 90's.

I'm too lazy to look for a link..
Well, Wikipedia should say something about it...

Yep!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-conduction_el ectron-emitter_display#History [wikipedia.org]

I don't get it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17600074)

So the deal was per unit per company involved? So if Canon had hired a catering company to help feed the workers then that company would of had to pay licencing fees too?

Brinkmanship (1, Insightful)

stox (131684) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600126)

Canon is betting that Nano-Proprietary will capitulate now that their revenue stream is cut to zero for the time being. I suspect that we will see Canon and Toshiba back together in the near future once Nano-Proprietary caves in.

first!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17600178)

for the record, I all parties it's offended some there are some so on, FreeBSD went theorists - centralized models there are only That *BSD is every day...Like AT&T and Berkeley poor dead last and piss cocktail. design approach. As how 1t was supposed Obsessives and the I won't bore you is the group that people playing can to fight what has Asshole to others troubled OS. Now end, we need you I read the latest some intelligent world-spanning to get some eye started work on be 'very poorly rivalry. While conve8sation and sure that by the prima donnas to FLAWS IN THE BSD approximately 90% free-loving climate The accounting of challenges that how it was supposed the party in street

Re:first!! (1)

ratz2 (1045646) | more than 7 years ago | (#17607274)

Does this post make any sense??

i hope this sed doesn't collapse (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17600192)

sed -e 's/oldstuff/newstuff/g' inputFileName > outputFileName

celebrate Martin Looter Koon Jr Day by looting your local Super Wal-Mart

LCD with LED backlight rocks (3, Interesting)

Jeff Tong (1050986) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600240)

I believe LCD panels with LED backlight unit is going to wipe out all opponents in the market. Such a combination is by no mean superior to OLED or SED. However, both technologies of LCD an LED are owned by Taiwanese companies. Some of them are even ready to produce LCD panels with LED backlight units. Although the price of LED backlight unit is currently much more expensive that of traditional CCFL, it may be lowered to a relatively low level in the next few year. As a result, LCD will knock out all rivals in the world and dominate the market of flat display panel.

Re:LCD with LED backlight rocks (1)

BrianH (13460) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600664)

I certainly hope not. I have yet to see an LCD TV that had brightness and contrast controls that worked worth a dang. Every LCD panel I've ever had has been too bright, and ended up a grey washed out mess when I tried to dim the picture. When you tack in the viewing angle issues (my living room, like many, doesn't even HAVE chairs pointed at the TV, so EVERYONE views "off-angle"), LCD technology leaves a bit to be desired. I've bought four of them now, and have returned all four to the store within two days. The loss of quality when moving from my CRT HDTV to a flat panel LCD was highly noticeable, and certainly outweighed any space advantage they might have.

Of course, plasma displays have their own problems and aren't exactly a solution either, with their burn in and power consumption issues. This is why many of us were looking forward to SED. I guess I'll just have to hang onto my CRT a bit longer and hope something else comes down the pipe.

Re:LCD with LED backlight rocks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17601334)

Not going to happen. As someone who works on OLED research I can guarantee you that there are plenty of core advantages to future display technologies (OELD, SED etc) to ensure LCD is not going to remain king. It will certainly still have a place at the top table for many years yet - but it is no conincedence that all the big guns are looking beyond LCD - the inefficiency of the backlight is only part of the story - viewing angle, thinness and manufacturing processes (try shadow mask fabricating at 32" - it is a feat all of its own to get it to work reliably) all play their part in making it a pretty weak technology for the future - it has little growth potential (either in size or developments) - the limits are being reached with it ATM.

Re:LCD with LED backlight rocks (1)

speculatrix (678524) | more than 7 years ago | (#17602044)

I have a Sony TX2 which has an LED backlight; the x-black display is beautifully sharp and contrasty (1280x768), and the backlight very even. If that's the future of LCD displays, I'd be very happy!

My (suddenly realised it's quite old, eight years now) Sony Wega Trinitron glass flat-tube TV is still going strong, so I'm not going to rush into replacing it just yet, until I know whether LCD+LED is coming, whether SED will actually turn up... and the whole issue of HDMI/HDCP/DVI is clarified, such as wehether I could get the full 1080p on the DVI port.

Legal Mumbo Jumbo (4, Interesting)

jours (663228) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600256)

What's interesting to me is the bottom part of TFA titled "Legal Mumbo Jumbo". I haven't been following this, but it sure sounds like the case has been awfully contentious.

Most important though, the complaint is (1) that Toshiba wasn't licensed and (2) that there is a breech of the agreement with Canon over "excluded products" (among a bunch of other stuff). That might mean that - Toshiba or not - Canon's not going to be free of the lawsuit, and not going to be releasing SED products either. Curiously, Nano's site doesn't mention any other licensees of their technology. So...one has to wonder if Toshiba and Canon together can't get these things to market and make them competitive, then who are they hoping to find that can do it?

Seems to me the best move would've been to let Canon/Toshiba take them to market and then go after all the competitors (Sony, Phillips, Hitachi, etc) for a license when they try to enter the market. But I guess that's why I don't own a multi-billion dollar electronics company.

Another problem (1)

Quzak (1047922) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600262)

Just another shining example of people and patents getting in the way of innovation and the future. People need to realize that money isnt everything, and that the growth of our species is more important then someones wallet.

Re:Another problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17600734)

your ability to watch a new tv is going to grow the species? How about the minds that think this shit up being able to feed their families?

Re:Another problem (1)

Frumious Wombat (845680) | more than 7 years ago | (#17602436)

If someone was interested in the growth of our species, then yet another technology to bring Donald Trump into our homes would be the last invention on the list. Let them wrangle.

SED Projector? (1)

SinGunner (911891) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600278)

Will SED technology be making it to the projector market? I mainly just watch movies, so projectors are really where my interest lies.

Re:SED Projector? (1)

rastom (1051192) | more than 7 years ago | (#17607512)

How could SED be used in a projector? The whole point is that there is a flat piece of glass with phospor dots on it like a CRT, behind which is an array of electron emitters (very much like an LCD grid).

The best idea I heard for projectors was a kind of CRT which lased in the direction of the electron beam. This meant it had continual focus, i.e. it was in focus at any distance. Some Russian guy I met about 10 years ago was talking about it but I don't know if it got anywhere. Something like http://www.turpion.org/php/paper.phtml?journal_id= qe&paper_id=4449 [turpion.org] looks close to the idea.

I wonder how small they can get these... (4, Interesting)

Jerf (17166) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600328)

I'm wondering how small they'll eventually be able to get these. I wonder if they'll ever get to the point where they can fit one of these in a laptop. SEDs should only consume power proportional to the brightness of the display, so I could see light lettering on a dark background coming back; display less stuff, use less power.

Add an SED to a laptop with solid-state storage (which, by the time this is feasible, will be at least where laptop hard drives are today), and the continuing work on processors that can shut themselves down nicely, and we may get some truly efficient laptops out of the deal, that only use power when actually doing something. Imagine instead of "suspending", just setting a "blank the screen" screensaver, and ending up with about the same power usage as a suspended laptop of today, only your torrent is still going...

A man can dream.

Re:I wonder how small they can get these... (1)

LeavenOfMalice (900303) | more than 7 years ago | (#17601556)

SEDs are not meant for computer monitors ~ at least until they fix the burn in issues.

Re:I wonder how small they can get these... (1)

mobby_6kl (668092) | more than 7 years ago | (#17601632)

OLED will be IMO more feasible for use in laptops before SED. OLED is already being used in small devices like mp3 players, car stereos, cameras, and stuff like that, while SED is not. Sony has a 27" 1080p TV on demonstration in Vegas [gizmodo.com] , as well as many smaller models.

As you can see, they're already very thin (the one on the second pic is about as thin as the LCD on my laptop [hp.com] ) and from my understanding of how the technology works, individual pixels will be powered proportionally to the brightness needed, so black pixels won't be drawing anything at all.

Re:I wonder how small they can get these... (1)

grimJester (890090) | more than 7 years ago | (#17601648)

Having a white on black display is such a big step down for the average "know nothing about computers" user that I don't think that would ever get a big enough market. If a laptop can be in, say 10 hours / 24 use while being charged once a day, I don't think a move to 24 hours charge would be a big enough step for most users to justify the "ugly" display.

If the OLPC idea of charging your laptop with muscle power catches on, things might look different.

Re:I wonder how small they can get these... (1)

Jerf (17166) | more than 7 years ago | (#17602820)

You wouldn't be forced to use that color scheme. If the displays don't look at least as good as current LCD they're not going to sell.

It's just that if you're "in the know" and understand what's going on, you could choose a light-on-black display to save power. And with the improved contrast ratio, that might not be so bad.

Re:I wonder how small they can get these... (1)

evilviper (135110) | more than 7 years ago | (#17606232)

Imagine instead of "suspending", just setting a "blank the screen" screensaver, and ending up with about the same power usage as a suspended laptop of today, only your torrent is still going...

Your suggesting are inherently contradictory. If you're downloading a torrent, you can't power-down your CPU. Power management is getting better, but you'll never get near Suspend-level power usage with any CPU activity. Not to mention , when active, you need more power for accessing RAM. Your solid-state hard drive is not going to be an insignificant power drain. etc.

100% idle is different. However, at that, you wouldn't need advanced CPUs. You could have slightly larger ammounts of video RAM to keep the image on the screen (see OLPC), and put the system into Suspend mode. It only takes a couple seconds to resume when you hit a button, and start doing work again. Improvements in open source drivers (and open source firmware) could get that down even further.

YASPC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17600372)

Legal bullshit being detrimental to consumers AND profits. Nothing new here.

This technology won't become profitable until after all the relevant and important patents expire. When that happens, it'll be other companies that profit from the technology, and not the companies that patented the ideas.

Land of the lawyer (1)

edwardpickman (965122) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600378)

Since when has the US been run by lawyers? We didn't elect them so why do they have so much power over us? Companies are so quick to sue that there obviously is a problem here. Maybe the better system is to force a binding arbitration so both sides would rather settle than go to the court system. Most of these lawsuits seem to be about one group trying to extort money out of another group. We need to accept intent as being part of a contract. If they obviously had the best intentions then there should be no grounds and no lawsuit. The parties were trying to make a deal to get a product to market when the original party realized the contract didn't specifically cover this approach. Common sense needs to be applied. Too many lawsuits are about letter of the law than intent to defraud. We pay for this. Time to say stop your bickering and accept that a contract or patent/copyright can't possibly cover every condition that will ever arise. At the very least the looser should pay all court costs plus 10%. Rediculous that such things are causing legal gridlock and we have to pay the bulk of the expenses. It's bizzare that one word in a contract carries more weight than the intent of all parties.

Re:Land of the lawyer (1)

CaptainChuck (856429) | more than 7 years ago | (#17605848)

>Since when has the US been run by lawyers? We didn't elect them We elected them. Clinton, Edwards, Hillary, and countless others.

Hard problem (1)

Jaxoreth (208176) | more than 7 years ago | (#17600416)

In fact, it's N-P hard.

Re:Hard problem (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 7 years ago | (#17601854)

It's much easier with my non-derministic Turing Machine.

Tragic... (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 7 years ago | (#17601046)

Events like these are among the most tragic in the business world as all they're doing is being destructive to their own areas of business. :-(

SED's dead baby,...... (1)

AbRASiON (589899) | more than 7 years ago | (#17601720)

This blows,...... as one of the last remaining videophiles who won't snip his testicles off to use an LCD / Plasma or DLP I'm crushed.

This can only mean bad or highly priced things for SED.

All I damn well want is exactly the same quality picture as my beautiful CRT's only larger and lighter, hell you can even keep the cost somewhat (reasonably) higher. I can't deal with Plasma or LCD the picture is just "washy" and nasty - really nasty even sometimes when I begin to weaken and think "hell maybe this isn't so bad" in a store room - upon closer inspection I wonder - then I get home, check out my HD-CRT and breathe a sigh of releif and anguish....... it's just not big enough but damnit I'm not forgoing this quality for something bigger.

I hear the SXRD's are good from Sony, (green blob rumours aside) - guess I'll just keep on waiting.

Re:SED's dead baby,...... (1)

karnal (22275) | more than 7 years ago | (#17602878)

I've recently moved to an LCD panel as my main computer monitor... but if I could find someone who still made Trinitron style monitors (say 22" or larger) I would buy one in a heartbeat.

Sadly, every CRT I've ever had has gone the wayside of getting blurry except for the trinitrons. And I've not purchased one larger than 17", so I don't want to go back to a 17 for daily use...

Re:SED's dead baby,...... (1)

rs79 (71822) | more than 7 years ago | (#17603464)

I love the new LCD displays. It means all the good Trinitron CRTs are stupid cheap now on Craigslist. Woo hoo. There's lots...

You couldn't pay me to switch from crts.

Re:SED's dead baby,...... (1)

Pooua (265915) | more than 7 years ago | (#17611002)

"if I could find someone who still made Trinitron style monitors (say 22" or larger) I would buy one in a heartbeat."

That is very large for CRTs. ViewSonic still sells CRT monitors, but only up to 21".

ViewSonic CRT Monitors [viewsonic.com]

The largest CRT that I could find from any manufacturer is only 22". I'm using a 19" monitor at home.

Re:SED's dead baby,...... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17615582)

Those aren't trinitron style monitors though. They use a shadow mask. True Trinitron monitors have the little wires that cross the screen.

Re:SED's dead baby,...... (1)

Pooua (265915) | more than 7 years ago | (#17622900)

AC: "Those aren't trinitron style monitors though. They use a shadow mask. True Trinitron monitors have the little wires that cross the screen."

ViewSonic began making monitors with Trinitron technology as soon as the patent expired. That used to be common knowledge, about 5 years ago. Here, they even name it:

"By incorporating the latest flat FD Trinitron® CRT, new fast performing video circuitry, and stringent quality processes during manufacturing, the Nokia FlatAG(TM) technology ensures the best possible image performance, color stability and user comfort available today."

ViewSonic: 445pro [viewsonic.com]

Unfortunately, it appears that the 445pro is out-of-production, and it appears that most places don't make Trinitron-type monitors (which is odd, because when the patent expired, everyone jumped on that bandwagon).

Apparently, Sony still makes several monitors based on Trinitron technology, but many of them cost more than $1000 (US). Even so, I noticed that Amazon has what looks like a great deal on a Sony Trinitron 24" monitor.

Re:SED's dead baby,...... (1)

EllisDees (268037) | more than 7 years ago | (#17603356)

I agree completely! I've been holding off on buying any kind of large screen hi-def tv because I thought these would be coming out soon. There's really no point in buying a crappy LCD when you compare the picture with a SED, but now who knows how long it will be!

Nano-P says lawsuit is still on: (2, Informative)

guidryp (702488) | more than 7 years ago | (#17602022)

http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=26219 [webwire.com]

"Restructuring of Canon's ownership position does not resolve the pending litigation which goes to trial in a few weeks," said Tom Bijou, Chief Executive Officer of Nano-Proprietary, Inc. "We have terminated Canon's license as a result of breach of contract. Moreover, our complaint against Canon includes other counts, including fraud unrelated to the ownership of SED. We are, however, willing to enter into a new license agreement with Canon on reasonable terms."

From all I have found, the fraud appears to be related to the inclusion of Toshiba without Nano-P knowledge, now that it is a wholly owned Canon venture that has yet to deliver a product, that seems rather scurrilous. It looks like an attempt to renegotiate (extort) for more money now that Canon is getting close to a real product. SED may wither on the vine if this keeps up. With years of development, I would be certain Canon has it's own IP portfolio that would pretty much eliminate anyone else going forward. This is already going to be in a niche product over the price point of most. Don't hold your breath on these. I am thinking Toshiba was happy to get out.

What about AWK? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17607776)

Is their joint venture on AWK still alive?
Check for New Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...