Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

The RIAA and French Button-Makers

kdawson posted more than 7 years ago | from the before-buggy-whips dept.

Businesses 150

Alien54 writes "Requiring permission to innovate? Feeling entitled to search others' property? Getting the power to act like law enforcement in order to fine or arrest those who are taking part in activities that challenge your business model? Don't these all sound quite familiar? Centuries from now (hopefully much, much sooner), the actions of the RIAA, MPAA and others that match these of the weavers and button-makers of 17th century France will seem just as ridiculous."

cancel ×

150 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

other examples of history repeating itself (5, Informative)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 7 years ago | (#17662900)

in the mid 1800s, it was customary for the usa to give the finger to european copyright laws and publish any book they wanted to, without any royalties sent to the old world

now we have the usa whining to china/ thailand/ indonesia/ etc to enforce american IP laws, with beijing playing lipservice for political and economic reasons while on the streets of hong kong you can still buy $10,000 worth of software bundled on a CD/ DVD for $3

and obviously, in 150 years, china will be issuing diplomatic myspace invectives to azerbaijan for stealing it's genetic code for it's zero G, no atmosphere moon crops... or whatever

aha this explains Charles Dickens speaking tours (1)

sjwest (948274) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663408)

to America and probably why Henry James lived in England to my mind. Things start to make sense.

Re:other examples of history repeating itself (4, Funny)

jahudabudy (714731) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663592)

in 150 years, china will be issuing diplomatic myspace invectives

Myspace not only still around, but an official channel in 150 years? Wow, and I thought Phillip K. Dick had some psychotically frightening future visions...

Re:other examples of history repeating itself (5, Informative)

HugePedlar (900427) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663708)

Even more ironic: The film industry set itself up in California in the far West to avoid (by way of lots of geography) all those nasty patents on filming techniques that existed on the East Coast. Hollywood would never have existed had not the film studios decided to break IP law.

Re:other examples of history repeating itself (1)

misleb (129952) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665240)

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

-matthew

Re:other examples of history repeating itself (4, Insightful)

argoff (142580) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663718)

... obviously, in 150 years, china will be issuing diplomatic myspace invectives to azerbaijan ...

It's more like in 30 years, and it's more like they will be RIAA-ing their own people to death. The copying of information and ideas are some of the few liberties and rights the Chinese people have, by pressuring them to kill that - the US is not only destabilizing the country and the region, but also pre-destining the death of a lot of people. In the US, the RIAA and the MPAA have certain legal restrictions that keep people from being shot in the head to set an example. Does anyone think for a moment that they wouldn't persue that if they could lawfully get away with it? Well, in China, the legal structure that holds back the powers that be is weak and non existent in many areas. When their content and invention industries start to make the transtition to a service based high tech model, it will likely be brutal and violent. It will also likely create the bitterest resentment of the US that one could imagine. For those who wish to impose copyright and patnet, I have no problem calling them what they are: murderers.

Re:other examples of history repeating itself (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17664566)

I think you've got your turban wrapped around your head a little to tightly.

You're obviously a very frightened little person.

Re:other examples of history repeating itself (2, Insightful)

smackt4rd (950154) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665574)

Yes, because we all know people will die if they can't use Photoshop.

Re:other examples of history repeating itself (1)

JoeRandomHacker (983775) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665668)

In the US, the RIAA and the MPAA have certain legal restrictions that keep people from being shot in the head to set an example. Does anyone think for a moment that they wouldn't persue that if they could lawfully get away with it?
Call me naive, but I do. As much as I dislike the RIAA/MPAA and their tactics, they are still have relatively civilized western values. So unbridled greed is acceptable, but actually killing people in a fairly casual manner for something less than murder would be too uncivilized. They might get there eventually, but I think it would take a while to adjust from lawyer-think to executioner-think.

Re:other examples of history repeating itself (3, Funny)

CrashPoint (564165) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665978)

For those who wish to impose copyright and patnet, I have no problem calling them what they are: murderers.

Hyperbole, this is argoff. Argoff, hyperbole. Oh, I see you two already know each other!

Re:other examples of history repeating itself (3, Interesting)

westlake (615356) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663780)

in the mid 1800s, it was customary for the usa to give the finger to european copyright laws and publish any book they wanted to, without any royalties sent to the old world

which meant that american authors rarely made it into print.

on the streets of hong kong you can still buy $10,000 worth of software bundled on a CD/ DVD for $3

and so the domestic product withers on the vine while the West outsources research and development to China.

Re:other examples of history repeating itself (1)

amh131 (126681) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665512)

Errr. So, the work is done in China and the product of that work is cheaply available in China. I'm not completely certain I don't see this as a domestic product.

Re:other examples of history repeating itself (3, Interesting)

sootman (158191) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664668)

And, IIRC, the reason Hollywood exists in California is because many early movies were ripped-off plays and books and the filmmakers wanted to be as far away as physically possible from all the east-coast-based copyright holders. The WHOLE FUCKING INDUSTRY is built on copyright violation! (Assuming what I read on the Interwebs is true.)

Um, yes, and ... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17665004)

you might want to look at a few other things too.

The American colonists refused to pay taxes levied by the authorities - a form of theft.

They then spread out across the continent, killing the natives and stealing their land, as well as anything else they could get their hands on.

They have broken every treaty and agreement they have entered into. Texas and Hawaii were both stolen from their rightful owners.

As you point out, they broke all copyright legislation (not only books) to pirate technology from Europe. (As a minor point of interest, try looking up the development of Depth Charges. The Brits invented them and brought a model over to show the Yanks during WW1. The US Navy promptly took the model down to the patent office and patented it for themselves.)

In fact, legal theft has been a standard feature of the US administration for years. Look at the arguments over radio invention, where first one inventor was granted a patent, then another.. in each case to supress any posibility of someone claiming due rights in the technology.

So I can't see why anyone complains over this issue in the US. You are all a nation of thieves and scoundrela anyway.

     

typical moronic anti-americanism (5, Insightful)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665694)

i do not embrace the usa, i am no nationalist, and the usa has done plenty of wrong in the world. the usa has also done plenty of good in the world. imagine that: it's done both. blindly excusing the usa for its crimes OR blindly ignoring the good the usa has done are both prejudices of equal intellectual dishonesty

but some people ascribe to american behavior what is nothing more than human behavior, common to all peoples, common to the history of the entire world, common to all current cultures. anti-americans castigate the usa for crimes that all nations commit. this doesn't excuse the usa, but why focus only on the usa when other countries do/ did the same? of course, when other countries do the same, it's all easily explained by... the nefarious influence of washington dc. i'm amazed sometimes at diatribes that wind up by logical inference from creative lines of reasoning for blaming the usa for situations and conditions that existed before the usa itself even existed!

if you have a crime that the usa specifically and uniquely does, then please, by all means, enter into the withering invectives

but if you want to sound intelligent, and not like a blind ethnocentric nationalist yourself, try not to criticize the usa for something all nations and peoples are guilty of. it makes your blind prejudice obvious and pathetic

look: blindly embracing and excusing the usa (or any nation) is simple stupid nationalism

but blindly kicking and incriminating the usa (or any nation) is EQUALLY simple and stupid nationalism

the only morally and intellectually sound point of view on the usa, or any nation, is to look at what they have done as good, and what they have done as bad. anything else, and you're a blind ethnocentric nationalist. whether that means you blindly prosecute the usa, or blindly love the usa.

yes: you. you are the same as an american ultranationalist. such a person is stupid. so are you. the only intelligent point of view of the usa is one that sees the good and bad and can wiegh both in their mind at the same time impartially

all else is useless boring typical lowest common denominator tribal vendetta

people have to learn to talk IDEAS, not TRIBES

until they do, people like you are part of the problems in the world, not the solution to them

Dont go THAT far away... (2, Informative)

xtracto (837672) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664738)

In Mexico City central avenue (Eje 1) or Tepito market [wikipedia.org] you can buy Autodesk Maya Unlimited 8.5 for $3.0 the DVD. And games are usually $1 for each CD.

That is why I laugh REALLY hard when I read that RIAA is going to start prosecuting P2P file downloaders in Mexico...

Lacking... (5, Interesting)

timtwobuck (833954) | more than 7 years ago | (#17662916)

Theres something lacking from the submitted article, namely what did French authorities do to remedy this situation...Or did they let the button-guild run rampant for centuries?

If we're doomed to repeat our history, lets at least flesh out said history so we know what to expect. Maybe we can even escape the doom of repeating our history with a little more thought.

Re:Lacking... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17663382)

Personally, I'm hoping for the guillotine.

Re:Lacking... (1)

camperdave (969942) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664948)

Personally, I'm hoping for the guillotine. That all depends on whom it was applied. If the French Authorities sided with the button makers and guillotined the fabric makers, then that means everyone with a torrent running, or a burnt CD full of music is due to lose their head. If the French Authorities sided with the fabric makers, then the ??IA better start wearing cast iron collars.

Of course, the third alternative is that you're suicidal. In which case you should seek some help.

Re:Lacking... (1)

camperdave (969942) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665112)

Hmm... It strikes me that since France is known for its fashion, and the Amish for their strict regulations regarding buttons, we can pretty much guess what happened.

Re:Lacking... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17663406)

Presumeably they did something about it while they made something about a great deal of other things in 1789, if not before. Getting such a bunch of assholes beheaded weren't probably any problem, I bet they could all be dealt with in a week. :)

Re:Lacking... (1)

phayes (202222) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664416)

Only with earthworms can you cut their heads and their assholes off at the same time...

Re:Lacking... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17664716)

now now, don't insult earth worms by comparing them to the RIAA/MPAA

Re:Lacking... (1)

fuse2k (1047490) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664226)

We learn from history that we learn nothing from history. --George Bernard Shaw History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. --Karl Marx The RIAA certainly seems farcical to me.

Re:Lacking... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17664620)

what did French authorities do to remedy this situation

They started chopping people's heads off.

Clearly the only think capable of stopping the RIAA are flipping out ninjas.

It's all related! (3, Funny)

kalpol (714519) | more than 7 years ago | (#17662928)

The Jacquard Loom users were sharing torrents of punch card patterns.

Re:It's all related! (4, Informative)

Billosaur (927319) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663258)

It may be modded funny, but the Jacquard Loom was the precursor of the modern punch-card computer. I remember from James Burke's original "Connections" series that the idea of registering patterns on a card led to the invention of a rudimentary computing system used to track the US Census (I think it was the 1890 Census, but my memory is flaky).

Re:It's all related! (4, Interesting)

kalpol (714519) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663464)

You're correct - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollerith [wikipedia.org] Silk as an ancestor of modern data storage techniques. I wrote a paper on this in school years ago - the chain of events leading from little child labourers making mistakes while weaving brocaded silk to IBM is quite interesting.

Re:It's all related! (1)

dxlts (1037812) | more than 7 years ago | (#17666356)

James Burke's Connections was a great series. I saw every episode and even bought a couple of the books and went to see him speak.


However, I eventually got annoyed because his "connections" were becoming less like actual connections and more like coincidences. If you've watched all the episodes, you know what I mean. He really started grasping at straws towards the end. Maybe he was just running out of material. Who knows? He should have changed the name from Connections to Pure F**king Coincidence. The connection between the Jacquard Loom and the census computer was, however, not one of the coincidences I'm referring to. That particular episode actually made a lot of sense.

The ridiculousity of it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17662944)


Person X choreographs system 1 on behalf of association P. Association P wishes to impose the condition that anyone wishing to use bits of system 1 in their own work must pay them. They cannot.

Person Y choreographs system 2 on behalf of association L. Association L wishes to impose the condition that anyone wishing to use bits of system 2 in their own work shall be unable to charge money for it. They can, as self-evident and universe-given as the wind and the water and the whispers in the trees.

Logic of the 21st century, future generations will laugh their behinds off.

/.ed (1)

tedgyz (515156) | more than 7 years ago | (#17662956)

Site is down

Re:/.ed (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17663086)

No it's not, but if you can't get at it, or if it does get slashdotted, here's the text:
History Repeats Itself: How The RIAA Is Like 17th Century French Button-Makers

As regular readers know, I've been working through a series of posts on how economics works when scarcity is removed [techdirt.com] from some areas. I took a bit of a break over the holidays to catch up on some reading, and to do some further thinking on the subject (along with some interesting discussions with people about the topic). One of the books I picked up was one that I haven't read in well over a decade, but often recommend to others to read if they're interested in learning more about economics, but have no training at all in the subject. It's Robert L. Heilbroner's The Worldly Philosophers [amazon.com] . Beyond giving readers a general overview of a variety of different economic theories, the book actually makes them all sound really interesting. It's a good book not necessarily because of the nitty gritty of economics (which it doesn't cover), but because it makes economics interesting, and gives people a good basis to then dig into actual economic theory and not find it boring and meaningless, but see it as a way to better understand what these "philosophers" were discussing.

Reading through an early chapter, though, it struck me how eerily a specific story Heilbroner told about France in 1666 matches up with what's happening today with the way the recording industry has reacted to innovations that have challenged their business models. Just two paragraphs highlight a couple of situations with striking similarities to the world today:
"The question has come up whether a guild master of the weaving industry should be allowed to try an innovation in his product. The verdict: 'If a cloth weaver intends to process a piece according to his own invention, he must not set it on the loom, but should obtain permission from the judges of the town to employ the number and length of threads that he desires, after the question has been considered by four of the oldest merchants and four of the oldest weavers of the guild.' One can imagine how many suggestions for change were tolerated.

Shortly after the matter of cloth weaving has been disposed of, the button makers guild raises a cry of outrage; the tailors are beginning to make buttons out of cloth, an unheard-of thing. The government, indignant that an innovation should threaten a settled industry, imposes a fine on the cloth-button makers. But the wardens of the button guild are not yet satisfied. They demand the right to search people's homes and wardrobes and fine and even arrest them on the streets if they are seen wearing these subversive goods."
Requiring permission to innovate [techdirt.com] ? Feeling entitled to search others' property [techdirt.com] ? Getting the power to act like law enforcement in order to fine or arrest [techdirt.com] those who are taking part in activities that challenge your business model? Don't these all sound quite familiar? Centuries from now (hopefully much, much sooner), the actions of the RIAA, MPAA and others that match those of the weavers and button-makers of 17th century France will seem just as ridiculous.

Wait.... (5, Insightful)

PieSquared (867490) | more than 7 years ago | (#17662974)

Centuries from now the actions of the RIAA will seem ridiculous? I was under the opinion that they seemed that way now!

If a private company being given the same powers as the police doesn't seem ridiculous, there is something else wrong.

Bad analogy (2, Insightful)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | more than 7 years ago | (#17662980)

Sorry, but this analogy does not hold up. The MPAA is not stopping anyone from making original movies. They are simply saying that you cannot copy someone else's work and call it your own. The French button makers wanted to ban button making completely for anyone outside their guild.

Re:Bad analogy (4, Insightful)

spencerogden (49254) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663116)

The analogy is not with what they are trying to prevent, but with the powers they are asking for. A private organization should not be given the powers of search and seizure, that's what the button makers wanted, and that's what the MPAA and RIAA want. They want to enforce laws to their own standards, and that's insane. At the level of an individual they would be called vigilantes.

Re:Bad analogy (2, Insightful)

iminplaya (723125) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665234)

At the level of an individual they would be called vigilantes.

In their case, pirates would be more appropriate.

Re:Bad analogy (1)

Thansal (999464) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663126)

Thank you.

This has absoloutly no bearing on the **AA's actions.

This is more akin to if unions had the govn't not letting ANYONE exept for union workers do a specific job.

The Weaver one (If a weaver wants to try out a new pattern then need a large commity to ok it) is also not related to the **AA's tactics.

These are all about stiffiling creativity or competition, and the **AA WANTS you to be creative, why? So that they can sign you up, steal your work, and then charge you for the privledge.

Re:Bad analogy (0, Troll)

Headcase88 (828620) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663216)

Agreed. The button-makers seemed to cause more of a patent-style problem than copyright. But it has been a few hours since /. posted an article about **IA, so they needed to find something.

Re:Bad analogy (5, Insightful)

hummassa (157160) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663356)

Sorry, but this analogy does not hold up. The MPAA is not stopping anyone from making original movies.
No, the analogy is perfect.

The *AA wants, for instance, to stop everyone from develop software that could be used to backup dvds. They are, for instance, stopping TiVo from developing new features to their set-top box. Those two are examples of the first item, "Requiring permission to innovate", and was illustrated in the history told by the guild requiring that anyone that wants to weave their fabrics differently should have the guild's permission.

They are requesting powers of police to watch what _I_ have in my HD, and what _I_ talk in my private net connections. This is a clear example of the second item, "Feeling entitled to search others' property".

More, they want powers to emprision or fine whoever they _think_ have their bits in the HD. This is an example of the third item; in the case on the FTA, the button-makers guild wanted to search everyone's homes, to find if they had any clothes with fabric-made buttons (that were not made by guilded members) and they wanted to imprision and fine whoever had those.

Every one of those items is telling the story of how the guilds wanted to protect their business model, regardless of the rights and protections that the citizens should have, including the right to the privacy of their own homes. The *AAs want to protect their business model, regardless of the rights and protections that the citizens should have, including the right to the privacy of their own homes and their private communications. So, as I told, the analogy is complete and perfect.

Don't just read the FTA, but the two linked-by pages too...

Re:Bad analogy (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17664828)

"regardless of the rights and protections that the citizens should have, including the right to the privacy of their own homes"

You have no such right if there is good evidence that you have broken the law. Saying "how dare you search my private home" when you have a hard drive full of torrented hollywood movies is just silly. That's no different to saying the same thing and having a living room full of stolen televisions.
Like it or not, breach of copyright *is* illegal (as it should be), and if you break the law, arguing about how you should be able to break it in private will not (and should not) get you anywhere.

Re:Bad analogy (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 7 years ago | (#17666162)

However, only the government's executive branch should be able to search private property as they are the only ones properly bound by laws and trained to handle these correctly, never mind that they are on the state's payroll and most likely more impartial than whatever mercenaries the RIAA would hire for the job.

Re:Bad analogy (1)

Have Blue (616) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665176)

It's still a bad analogy. The MPAA has no problem with programs like iDVD that burn completely original movies, filmed with a camera, to DVD, so it's not "requiring permission to innovate". The only thing you can't do without pissing off the MPAA is mess with CSS.

Re:Bad analogy (1)

91degrees (207121) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663374)

It's more akin to the MPAA's insistance that video devices conform to their specifications, or the RIAA insisting on DRM.

Re:Bad analogy (1)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664152)

You are free to invent your own video device based on your own invented video format. Then you'd be free from the MPAA specifications. Why don't you do this?

Re:Bad analogy (1)

91degrees (207121) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664812)

It wouldn't play standard formats.

If it was capable of recording or copying, the MPAA would seek to regulate it.

Re:Bad analogy (2, Interesting)

Peter Mork (951443) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663518)

Well, reasoning by analogy is always spotty. Disclaimer aside, consider an alternative verson of the analogy: The button makers owned the intellectual property for one particular class of fastening device (the button). Others were free to invent new fastening devices (e.g., the lace). The button makers enlisted the aid of the government to prevent the evil tailors from copying their intellectual property. Like I said, reasoning by analogy is more an exercise in creativity than logic.

Re:Bad analogy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17664400)

Really? so I can go out and buy a HD-DVD or Blu Ray burner and burn my movie production onto it and it will play on any player the format is for?

Funny, last I knew Both BluRay and HDDVD refused to play unencrypted and authenticated discs. My content will not play on any unless I pay to get it blessed with my own encryption key.

This cost makes it impossible for a Indie film maker to release a movie, therefore they are stopping me from making original movies (Because Hollywood CANT make original movies)

Re:Bad analogy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17665180)

but this is slashdot, where 12 year old kids living in moms basement come to whine at "teh evil corporations" while they download everyone elses hard work for free. Its the new paradigm man! living in your moms basement and freeloading off other people is teh future. Your obviously too old and an MPAA shill, which is why you don't understand the future!!! Getting paid to make stuff is so 20th century man!!!!

Re:Bad analogy (2, Interesting)

iminplaya (723125) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665320)

The MPAA is not stopping anyone from making original movies.

In addition to what the other responders said, actually they are. They are attempting to ban the tools needed for widespread self publication simply beacuse thay CAN be used to vilate their regulations. P2P and the crippling of the mini-disc and attempting to restrict internet radio are just a few tiny examples.

There are more examples of outdates businesses (5, Interesting)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663026)

trying to protect their turfs, knowing that their time has passed.

Do you know those ridiculous laws, where it's required that a man with a flag or lantern runs in front of a car? No, the legislative ain't always been stupid (and these century old laws being the proof), they exist for exactly the same reason why train stations are usually at the outskirts of towns (or, at least, were 'til the towns grew): The horse cabs were fearing for their business.

And for a good reason. They weren't needed anymore as a means of transport if people could drive themselves, or if they could use the train instead. So the stations were outside of towns (to "protect the health" of the people, of course, as the official reason), so you had to take a cab to get there anyway.

We're now facing the same with the mafiaa. They are pushing at the lawmakers to install laws to protect their outdated business model, not wanting to realize that their time is over and they're not needed anymore.

Well, I guess in a century, people will shake their heads over our copyright laws, just like we're shaking them now over the requirement of men with flags in front of cars.

Re:There are more examples of outdates businesses (4, Interesting)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663192)

All along the Erie canal in the NY State, you will find charming little towns, stuck in 18th century seemingly progress bypassed them. But way back when Erie canal was the main transporatation artery, the barge companies controlled the local govt and made sure none of the "new fangled" railroads touch their towns. Well, they kept the railroads out and they got bogged down in 17th century.

Re:There are more examples of outdates businesses (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663792)

All along the Erie canal in the NY State, you will find charming little towns, stuck in 18th century seemingly progress bypassed them. But way back when Erie canal was the main transporatation artery, the barge companies controlled the local govt and made sure none of the "new fangled" railroads touch their towns. Well, they kept the railroads out and they got bogged down in 17th century.

And now they're still charming, while all the "progressive" towns in upstate New York became economically depressed rust belt cities. Which type of place is the best place to live you think?

Re:There are more examples of outdates businesses (2, Interesting)

OneSmartFellow (716217) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663978)

What, you mean like Rome, NY [wikipedia.org] where the poverty rate is approaching 15%, yep, would just love a place like that ?

Re:There are more examples of outdates businesses (2, Informative)

operagost (62405) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664494)

Rome used to have a railroad [wikipedia.org] . I'd blame NY's economic policies and high property taxes more for the sad state of Rome.

Re:There are more examples of outdates businesses (1)

operagost (62405) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664376)

So... did they get bogged down in the 17th century (before the canal even existed) or the 18th century (when construction finally began)? Or maybe it was the 19th century, when the canal was completed? or maybe the 20th... never mind. Just read Wikipedia, or something.

Re:There are more examples of outdates businesses (1)

wwwillem (253720) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664024)

they exist for exactly the same reason why train stations are usually at the outskirts of towns (or, at least, were 'til the towns grew): The horse cabs were fearing for their business


L'histoire se repete .... why are there sooo many airports in the world, where there is no railway connection with downtown. From big Singapore, where the LRT "just missed it" to Denver, to here in Calgary, where there is even not a decent public bus going to the airport. It's all because of the taxi rackets. Not the cab drivers themselves, but the owners of the cab licenses. And that's a mafia even bigger than the MAFIAA.... (picked up that nice acronym by RFA :-)

Re:There are more examples of outdates businesses (1)

rwyoder (759998) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665304)

F
rom big Singapore, where the LRT "just missed it" to Denver, to here in Calgary, where there is even not a decent public bus going to the airport. It's all because of the taxi rackets. Not the cab drivers themselves, but the owners of the cab licenses.
Just a week ago I was sharing a ski chairlift with a guy who had been a consultant for Mayor Webb in Denver. He told me about the pressure that had been put on the administration to not run the LRT to DIA. Asinine that they caved into that.

Re:There are more examples of outdates businesses (1)

Miamicanes (730264) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665570)

Exactly the same thing happened in Miami. The cab companies threatened to go on strike and quit serving the airport if Metrorail ran there. The local government caved in (instead of opening the market to newcomers, delighted to inherit an incredibly profitable market vacated by the established companies), and Metrorail missed the airport by several miles. Fortunately, sanity eventually prevailed, and work is now underway to extend it to the airport. In theory, at least... I'll believe it when the first tangible concrete column goes up...

The red flag act (1)

Flying pig (925874) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664562)

Wasn't actually Luddite. It was written in a day when powered vehicles on the road were heavy agricultural machines that caused road damage, gave off sparks and smoke and frightened horses badly. In the UK, with many narrow roads, this was far more of an issue than in France, which is a much emptier country.

When gasoline powered road vehicles started to appear in larger numbers, and agricultural machinery became more portable, the Act was repealed.

There's a key difference here (3, Insightful)

Orange Crush (934731) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663068)

I'm no fan of the RIAA and by no means condone their actions to defend "their" blessed IP, but there's a key difference between the RIAA and the French Button-Makers. Those who dared innovate with buttons made of cloth would be punished because it completely cut the button makers out of the loop. The RIAA has not yet gone after those who dare produce music (independant bands, labels, social networking, etc.) without being under their auspices.

About the only similarity I see is that both the guilds and the RIAA are asshats and were going after end-users. Beyond that, the analogy breaks down.

Re:There's a key difference here (4, Insightful)

fireboy1919 (257783) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663224)

The RIAA has not yet gone after those who dare produce music (independent bands, labels, social networking, etc.) without being under their auspices.

Except in the purchase of blank music CDs, of course, which cost more because you're going to presumably put music on them owned by the RIAA. And they have sent take-down notices to bands who've got their own MP3s up on the web.

You might also say that the mandatory DRM in ipods hurts bands who want their music shared by keeping it from being shared by the uninitiated.

That's not exactly nothing, is it?

Re:There's a key difference here (1)

iamdrscience (541136) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663630)

Except in the purchase of blank music CDs, of course, which cost more because you're going to presumably put music on them owned by the RIAA.
Can you post a link to a source on that? I was aware that was the case in Canada, but I though the similar law that had been proposed in the US had not made it through. I may be misremembering though.

Re:There's a key difference here (3, Informative)

fireboy1919 (257783) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663856)

Here you go. [torrentfreak.com]

The big deal is that it only affect music CDRs. Not all CDRs.

The only reason I can think to use music CDRs is if you're using a standalone CD recorder which will only take music CDRs (this is a common, though artificial limitation).

Re:There's a key difference here (2, Informative)

hummassa (157160) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663854)

You might also say that the mandatory DRM in ipods hurts bands who want their music shared by keeping it from being shared by the uninitiated.
s/mandatory DRM in ipods/mandatory DRM in iTMS/

the DRM is not mandatory in iPods.

Re:There's a key difference here (2, Insightful)

foniksonik (573572) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664054)

There's no mandatory DRM in iPods unless you buy the song through iTunes.... they play MP3s just fine... or WAV or FLAC and of course MP4u as well as the iTunes MP4p formats.

Re:There's a key difference here (1)

iminplaya (723125) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665496)

Forget about the iPod for a moment and remember that the mini-disc recorders would not allow you to make digital copies of anything, including your own recordings. You had to buy the "pro" version. Yes, the ??AA pirates ARE trying to stop original artists that don't go through their gates and pay the toll.

Re:There's a key difference here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17664300)

anybody remember the original mp3.com here?

Re:There's a key difference here (1)

Shaltenn (1031884) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663588)

The RIAA has not yet gone after those who dare produce music (independant bands, labels, social networking, etc.) without being under their auspices.


SHHH! Stop giving them ideas!

se8 with a sponge (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17663108)

Show 7hat *BSD has In aadition, Minutes. If that. users', BigAzz, in ratio of 5 to

Needlepoint and Counterpoint (3, Funny)

AndroidCat (229562) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663172)

Needlepoint patterns are a frequent copyright hot zone [cnn.com] on the web, newsgroups, etc. Ah well, at least when the lawyertroopers of the NPAA haul some needlepointing granny into court, they've probably got the right copyright terrorist.

Obligatory... (0, Offtopic)

ingo23 (848315) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663244)

All your buttons are belong to us

Re:Obligatory... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17663386)

Take off all buttons, for great justice!

Not the same (2, Interesting)

Merkwurdigeliebe (1046824) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663312)

The French buttonmakers were wary of being undersold and made redundant by cheaper methods/producers. The **AA are keen to protect the way their product is distributed and used. They may wish but cannot prosecute other artists/publishers from publishing content w/o DRM or anything else. What they want to do or keep is their own product from being distributed against their will. That is, to be against it being virtually freely duplicated and/or redistributed w/o compensation to them. One might not like their greed, but it's greed for their product -the one they have rights to by law. The **AA are not persuing other people from giving giving or distributing their own stuff in their own way. the French buttonmakers were against others competing against them in ways that undersold them or made them redundant.

I just think it's interesting but a different situation altogether.

Licensing schemes are in essence a form or rights management. One does not go about as an entity violating the license solely to take it as one's own and doing as one pleases with a bit of software. There are law-related repercussions if one were to violate the licenses in software if the licesor sees it fit to persue the infringer. There are restrictions one needs to abide by

Forget French Button Makers... (4, Insightful)

iamdrscience (541136) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663414)

You don't have to go outside the music industry to show that what they're doing today will be viewed as foolish by those in the future, they've been doing this for a long time now.
  • Player Pianos - When these were introduced, they were hated by musicians because they thought it threatened their livelihood, "who's going to pay us to play when you can just get one of these pianos?"
  • Phonograph Records - Many musicians hated these for the same reason when they first came out, "who's going to pay us to play when you can just buy a record for a couple of bucks?"
  • Radio broadcasts of records - When radio stations first began broadcasting records instead of live music performances, many musicians again felt this threatened them, "Who's going to buy our records when they can hear them on the radio for free?"
In hindsight it's obvious that none of these technologies were threats to musicians and in fact, in many cases they helped them.

Re:Forget French Button Makers... (1)

gfxguy (98788) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664238)

Well, you're right, of course, but it is true that musicians made less doing live performances for the very reasons they stated. The problem is they didn't account for making more money from the sales of these items. Some end up making more money, some end up making less, and the record companies and music roll publishers ended up taking the lion's share.

Still, a popular musician could make a lot more. For an average performer it might be a wash financially, but ultimately it was a lot less work.

But, like my interest in the Fair Tax, which would eliminate the need for most tax accountants, while having two in the family, I still support the Fair Tax. Life must go on, and we shouldn't hesitate to improve the quality of life just to preserve someone's status quo.

Re:Forget French Button Makers... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17665062)

While they may have helped some musicians, I can't say they helped them all. Look at what happens today. A very few musicians get big deals and make money(or not depending upon the contract they signed). The rest of the people are resigned to MAYBE getting to play in a bar, if they don't decide to just play a cd or something cheaper, or playing on a street corner.

Before radios, and record players, any place that wanted music(which was alot since there weren't as many forms of entertainment back then) would have to hire a musician. Now one musician can entertain an infinite number of places simply through the purchase of a cheap radio or cd player and cd.

Re:Forget French Button Makers... (1)

fruey (563914) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665366)

Live music died a little though. Less musicians make a living playing in front of the public. My father used to be able to go out 3 nights a week and get paid for live music, he can't now. Yes, the market was for less talented musicians, but today nowhere will pay as much for live music because people are less interested. So the distribution is no longer for "live" but for "recorded" music. Yes there's a following for those who like the charm of the true live sound, but less places have live music than before. Musicians can still make a living, but times change. You can't stop the progress of time, and live music has become more of a niche market for the best live musicians. But the threat to a certain type of musician (the pub band, the pub pianist) has been replaced by other types, and the money gets redistributed differently.

Re:Forget French Button Makers... (1)

Stormx2 (1003260) | more than 7 years ago | (#17666500)

Although I'm not big fan of the RIAA, that analogy seems a bit bad... Artists are payed for records, radio broadcasts generate profits from exposure. The artists were more afraid of change rather than fear of no pay... However, non-DRMed music is less exposure and more free music... We've had continued arguments about whether non-DRMed music makes more or less money for the artists. It works entirely on exposure, but unlike radio you can get what you want with minimal effort. Radio involves waiting for the song to come back on.

Thats a very small argument though. The big labels are filthy stinking rich from underpaying artists. The medium-sized labels usually just keep their heads above water, and smaller labels will be lucky to succeed unless they find a hot new band (for example, Flogging Molly signed to a very small label)

The dawn of guilds and history repeating (2, Interesting)

starX (306011) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663478)

This is probably going to get moded down, but I feel the urge to play devils advocate here. The *AAs have pissed me off as much as the next guy, but there have always been guilds and trade unions that try to protect craftsman from being exploited. These are generally a good thing; without them people work 80 hours a week for pennies a day, and children lose their fingers to factory machines. Part of protecting the tradesmen means protecting the trade itself, and the system by which a person becomes a tradesmen. Aren't you glad that you have a guild that certifies whether or not someone is actually competent to practice medicine before you go under the knife? Don't you feel a little bit more comfortable hiring an electrical contractor who has been certified by other "master" electricians as being capable of installing wiring that won't burn your house down?

Speaking as someone who works in the entertainment industry, entertainment is a product like anything else. It is a business like any other, and a business whose workings few people ("artists" inclusive) really understand. Any sales outfit will tell you that you need to sell at a 15% margin just to cover your costs, anything beyond that is your actual profit. Yet this is something that few artists really grasp, and it's why most of them are labeled as "starving." The *AAs handle the business side of things because that's what they're good at. All you programmers out there, raise your hands up if you think you're any different. Everyone who isn't an independent contractor and works for someone else, put your hands down.

We as artists, programmers, carpenters, what have you need the guild associations. We as a society need them to protect ourselves and our artisans from exploitation. Something that you need to understand is that the guilds are run by "masters," people who presumably know more about the trade because they've been doing it longer. People who, in other words, are set in their ways. Innovation flies in the face of what they recognize as common sense, so of course they're opposed to it. Now quit whining. Are you capable of making better music? Are you capable of being a better programmer? Are you capable of making better movies? Nothing in the world is stopping you from quitting your job and trusting yourself to the free market, and in an era where anyone can burn a CD the costs of doing business are cheap.

And before you start thinking that the federal government shouldn't be enforcing the wisdom of the guilds, just take a breath and consider your surgeon's credentials next time you find yourself in the ER. It's a fair point that music is a lot different than medicine, but this is America folks. If you don't want politicians to regulate art, tell them! Tell them, tell them, tell them, tell them, tell them! Stop being a whiny ignoramus and use the friggin political system your forefathers fought to give you. And you know what? If your elected officials don't do what you want, replace them. If you can't find anyone to do what you want, then run yourself!

The artistic, economic, and political power is in your hands. Start using it and quit your griping. You are free to boycott. I haven't bought anything from Amazon since they got their 1-Click patent, and I have done so with no regrets. If you don't like the *AA's business model, stop doing business with them. Nothing is making you buy that CD. You have played your part in making the system what it is.

Re:The dawn of guilds and history repeating (3, Insightful)

Ashtead (654610) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663826)

The big difference between surgeons and electricians on one side, and entertainment and button-makers on the other side, is that even minute faults in the former's practices can lead directly to loss of life and property, while no such fatal consequences are possible for entertainers or button-makers. As for machinery cutting off peoples fingers, we have got some other ways of controlling safety in general, such as the OSHA.

Consider other, non-critical, guild like watch-makers or painters, once also strictly controlled ... At worst, the control on their work would be along "fit for purpose"-regulations, but I don't think anyone has ever died from a stopped watch or a house painted in the wrong color.

ObGroucho (1)

Rob T Firefly (844560) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664774)

Dr. Hackenbush (Groucho Marx) is using his watch to take a patient's pulse.

"Either he's dead, or my watch has stopped."

Re:The dawn of guilds and history repeating (1)

HTH NE1 (675604) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664854)

The big difference between surgeons and electricians on one side, and entertainment and button-makers on the other side, is that even minute faults in the former's practices can lead directly to loss of life and property, while no such fatal consequences are possible for entertainers or button-makers.

Maybe not fatal, but a single wardrobe malfunction could irrevocably damage the minds of the children! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

Re:The dawn of guilds and history repeating (1)

starX (306011) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665330)

Rigging malfunctions have a highly lethal potential. When you have a half ton of lighting and sound gear suspended in the air above you on stage, you might like to know that the person who hung it there knows what they're doing. I know you're making a joke, and yes it is funny, but when stage hands screw up, people can die. That's why ETCP offers certification in both rigging and electrics.

Re:The dawn of guilds and history repeating (1)

starX (306011) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665092)

onsider other, non-critical, guild like watch-makers or painters, once also strictly controlled ... At worst, the control on their work would be along "fit for purpose"-regulations, but I don't think anyone has ever died from a stopped watch or a house painted in the wrong color.

I would venture the guess that more than one person in history has died as a result of a faulty time piece, but the fact is that it doesn't matter. If it's not critical, why not make your own watch? I'll venture the answer that, if you don't care about quality/craftsmanship you'll just lay out $5 at the local big box for something cheap and functional. Likewise with paint. But that's only half the issue. The only reason that you get cheap watches and cheap paints is because of industrialization and slave labor. Chances are the shoes on your feet were made in a sweat shop in a developing economy. The phrase "cobblers guild" would elicit some laughter in the states, but the suggestion would probably get you fired/roughed up in the right place.

"Art," in the nebulous sense of the word is an evanescent thing. In the case of the walls of your living room, you're content to paint them yourself because you are capable of producing a sufficient quality of work. If you felt the same way about music, we wouldn't be having this discussion. You would play and sing your own songs and be content with that. If you wanted something better, you would have a favorite local band. If you want something even better, you need someone who can devote themselves full time to music, and that means being able to manage the business of music. I'm guessing that, unless you live in a major metropolitan area, not to many people can swing that.

Look at this from the point of view of the recording company. You are about to invest a bunch of money in a band on the premise that you will get returns from their music. Remember that a recording contract puts a band in debt up front. They need to repay that debt before they can make any profit, and the label of course wants them to make a profit; it's an indicator that they'll make more profit in the future. Again I say if you buy CDs you're part of the problem.

Now for the whole copyright issue. Either you respect the fact that artists should be able to profit from their art, or you don't. This isn't a grey area. If you think they should, and you think their art is worth the price, you'll pay it. If you don't, then you won't. If you don't pay and yet partake, that's stealing. Again, look at it from the label's point of view: you are stealing from them and the artists they represent, and they would be remiss if they didn't put their shoulder to the wheel in stopping you.

Do you feel that it's wrong for the *AA to pretend to be a police officer? Good, so does just about every municipality in the country. If you catch them, you should contact the police immediately and have them arrested for impersonating a police officer. The entire premise of a professional police force is so that claims of theft (all kinds) can be investigated and prosecuted objectively. If I catch you selling my stuff off the back of a truck, I'm going to call the cops. The *AA has that same right.

Do you feel that the *AA is going too far? Good, then you need to get in touch with the people who write the laws. The *AA is sticking up for its interests in a perfectly legal and legitimate way, and the average Joe needs to do the same if he is feeling slighted. Oppressive and unfair laws get written because sit on their ass complaining on message boards instead of doing anything about it.

Some guilds are obsolete. That shouldn't surprise you, and nor is it relevant to the matter at hand. As technology and society changes, something that requires a skilled craftsman today requires unskilled labor tomorrow. Whether or not someone still needs certification to perform a trade is a function of just how far society is going to regulate, because that's where the muscle of the guilds comes from in the present day. Maybe you feel that there should be no state endorsement of art? I doubt you'll find an artist who agrees with you: that would mean all federal grant money goes away. Maybe you feel that there should be no state regulation of art? That's fine; do something about it (and I think most artists would agree with that point). Perhaps you feel that the state should stop enforcing property law?

Art is product. Period. Anyone who works in the entertainment industry successfully knows this because they either directly market or manage their product, or they have someone to do it for them. It is a special kind of product, mind you, but a product just the same. I personally don't feel that the state has any right to regulate what is and is not art, and for the reason you cite, however the state has a responsibility to defend the rights of property owners, as defined by the law.

Which just brings me back to my point: if you don't like the law as written, there a lot of things you can do to change it. Idle complaining gets you nowhere.

Quality Control would be good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17666046)

I'd be more happy to pay more and even tolerate a little more regulation of the music/movies industry if there were quality control. However, what they're currently "protecting" is stuff that's good and a few decades old, and a lot of stuff that's crap and current... but overpromoted, overpriced, and overblown.

Maybe people wouldn't be downloading copies of Song X if the fact that it was the one good track on a $25 disc full of otherwise crap, or they wouldn't be downloading Movie Y because of the last three they watched, two were overhyped crap and they're no longer willing to pay $20-30 to be forced into watching ads, previews, and a ludicrously shitty movie with any redeeming scenes already given away in the previews.

So yeah, if you want a guild of musicians, actors, or screenwriters, how about a little quality control on who gets membership nowadays.

^m0d up (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17663570)

was in the tea I 4rima doonas to

Ob Heinlein Quote (5, Interesting)

rlp (11898) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663840)

"There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute or common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back."

          - Robert Heinlein, "Life Line", 1939

Re:Ob Heinlein Quote (1)

PTBarnum (233319) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663962)

"... have any right to come into court ..."

So true. An individual or corporation should know that guaranteeing their profits is the proper function of the legislative branch, so they should send lobbyists to congress, not lawyers to the courts.

The Guilds Were a Powerful Force (2, Insightful)

beadfulthings (975812) | more than 7 years ago | (#17663900)

I don't see how this has much bearing on what's happening now. The guilds in Europe were a powerful force for centuries, from the dawn of the Middle Ages on. They covered just about every facet of life from fine arts (painters) to crafts and trades (weavers, plumbers, carpenters, silversmiths) to the food chain (butchers, fishmongers). They served any number of useful purposes including protecting their members (basically the middle class) from the abuses of the nobility and the church; setting up standards and best practices; and developing formalized methods for training (the system of apprentice/journeyman/master craftsman). As someone here has pointed out, that system survives today in the training and certification of certain trades such as plumbers and electricians.

One good way to appreciate the power and function of the guilds is to read about the long history of the city of London; it has evolved to the present day on the basis of the actions of the guilds and their interactions with other parts of society.

The article is shallow and superficial. When I read it, part of my mind sided with the French buttonmakers. They saw their tradecraft being walmartized, and they protested.

Re:The Guilds Were a Powerful Force (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 7 years ago | (#17664652)

Of course they prtested, good for them.
Of course the moment they want to search peoples closets, and arrest people is where they cross the line.

It's not so much innovation they were stifling, it was the market. I suspect that if they had created cloth buttons, it would have been seen as a great innovation.

Re:The Guilds Were a Powerful Force (1)

beadfulthings (975812) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665220)

Of course you are right, but my thoughts are in a different place at the moment. As you might infer from my username, I use a lot of beads. The glassmakers of Venice have been making beads since the time of Ancient Rome, and their guild was one of the most powerful during the Middle Ages. There were times when you could get onto the island of Murano, but you couldn't get off again--if you knew the beadmakers' trade secrets.

Now, virtually all beads of any kind are manufactured in China. In the case of Venetian glass, the fakery is especially sorry-looking. In places where gold and silver might have been applied, we now have gold-colored and silver-colored foil, or even paper. The Chinese don't have kilns to anneal their glass. They just hold it near the furnaces for a few minutes and hope that will do. The result is articles that look good and are oh, so cheap. The long-term result is that not only will those cheap goods break and fall apart, but the artisans who made the real stuff will have gone out of business or starved. It's actually not only Venetian glass; it affects tradespeople in places as far-flung as the Czech Republic, Austria, even Africa, India, and parts of Southeast Asia. I refer to that as the "walmartization" of the items, and sure enough, we now have several "big box marts" of beads here in the U.S., dumping the cheap stuff on us and controlling the prices.

The Venetian glassmakers should probably have done in the visiting Chinese...

Guild ... (3, Funny)

DMorritt (923396) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665038)

seeking active english speaking mage/warrior/lawyer, must be lvl 50+ for guild raids and quests.

Guilds, Monopolies, and G. K. Chesterton (1)

j_f_chamblee (253315) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665196)

Although I TFA interesting, I'm not sure I would assign RIAA or the MPAA the dignity of association (even by analogy) of craftsmens guilds or trade unions. This whole issue of DRM is not just about the trends and traditions within certain professions, but is really instead about the much larger problem of unchecked monopolies with seemingly unlimited government access. To that end, I think a quote by G.K. Chesterton might be even more appropriate than the excellent Heinlein quote posted elsewhere:

From the standpoint of any sane person, the present problem of capitalist concentration is not only a question of law, but of criminal law, not to mention criminal lunacy." - "A Case In Point," G.K. Chesterton, The Outline of Sanity

Didn't the Writers' guild (1)

iminplaya (723125) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665198)

exhibit the same power over users of the printing press? The very thing tthat started this whole IP mess to begin with.

Stationers Monopoly in the 15th,16th,17th century (3, Interesting)

openright (968536) | more than 7 years ago | (#17665248)

A more fitting example is that of the Stationers Company holding a publishing monopoly for much of 2 centuries.
The U.S. was founded at a time where freedom from such long-lived monopolies was important.

Unfortunately, Copyright monopolies have been extended from 13 years to 90-120 years.

http://www.culturaleconomics.atfreeweb.com/cpu.htm [atfreeweb.com]

Victory. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17665958)

I wish the RIAA and MPAA would take advice from the French and just surrender.

Everyone is missing the point (3, Funny)

Joe Snipe (224958) | more than 7 years ago | (#17666420)

Since the disbandment of the button guild, there has been no innovation in buttons and button related tech in the last 300 years. Surely we must all send dollars to the RIAAs immediately, or music may die forever!
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?