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Mossberg - Vista Is Worthy, Largely Unexciting

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the it-cannot-slice-tomatoes dept.

Microsoft 398

Carl Bialik from WSJ writes "Wall Street Journal tech columnist Walter S. Mossberg says Vista is the best version of Windows yet, but doesn't represent a major step forward: 'Overall, it works pretty much the same way as Windows XP.' More from the review: 'Nearly all of the major, visible new features in Vista are already available in Apple's operating system, called Mac OS X, which came out in 2001 and received its last major upgrade in 2005. ... in my tests, some elements of Vista could be maddeningly slow even on new, well-configured computers. Also, despite Vista's claimed security improvements, you will still have to run, and keep updating, security programs, which can be annoying and burdensome. Microsoft has thrown in one such program free, but you will have to buy at least one more. That means that, while Vista has eased some of the burden on users imposed by the Windows security crisis, it will still force you to spend more time managing the computer than I believe people should have to devote.'"

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398 comments

Downloadable (5, Informative)

fittekuk (1033554) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667000)

Has anyone else noticed that Microsoft is going to allow you to purchase and download Vista over the net, instead of having to buy the physical CDs?
I guess many here are not planning to buy it, but anyway, this is something new from Microsoft. I guess they are really happy with their Genuine Advantage to go through with this.

Re:Downloadable (5, Funny)

fractalVisionz (989785) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667834)

But how will I get new cd keys when I call because I swapped around my hardware to much. They usually ask questions like, what color is the cd, what is in the upper left hand corner. My replies, its shinny, and cd's don't have corners. I won that battle.

BTW, that is the easiest way to get new cd keys.

Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it..... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667030)

"Nearly all of the major, visible new features in Vista are already available in Apple's operating system"...

OUCH!

Re:Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it..... (1)

otacon (445694) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667164)

I think the real ouch came right after that when he said it "came out in 2001" Only a mere six years later...double ouch

Re:Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it..... (1, Informative)

I'm Don Giovanni (598558) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667596)

Too bad it's completely false. OSX 2001 was garbage, even Mac users admit as much.

Re:Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it..... (5, Informative)

Divebus (860563) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667916)

OSX 2001 was garbage, even Mac users admit as much.

Correct. In 2001, there wasn't much there. By 2002 [10.2], it was pretty good. Stuff just worked, so Vista was only bested by 5 years, or almost 2 years if you count the current features in OS X mimicked by Vista in their unique, crudely inferior way.

Re:Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it..... (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667992)

Also Vista was supposed to be DONE when OSX came out.

So they are very late, and don't have very many of the abilities it was supposed to have.

Re:Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it..... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667932)

OSX 2001? What's OSX 2001?

Re:Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it..... (1, Funny)

blazerw (47739) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668324)

OSX 2001 was garbage, even Mac users admit as much

If Apple releases a new revision each year that increments the version .1 each time. And, if apple increments the major version every 10 revisions, then it will be more than 19,000 years before OSX 2001 is released.

What type of hardware does it run on? Is this even a valid question?

Soon after this article came out... (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667040)

you could hear the sounds of chairs breaking all over Redmond.

Re:Soon after this article came out... (3, Insightful)

lonechicken (1046406) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667146)

you could hear the sounds of chairs breaking all over Redmond.
Chairs breaking all the way to the bank.

You can hear the marketing drones whir up now... (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667046)

Use the operating system Walter Mossberg called 'The best version of Windows yet!'

He's a hack for crying out loud - who cares what h (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667072)

He's a hack for crying out loud - who cares what he thinks, or writes? Lemmings, okay. RUA lemming?

Re:He's a hack for crying out loud - who cares wha (1)

SuperStretchy (1018064) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667144)

Paraphrase- yeah... its the best ever, but its exactly like XP. and its exactly like osx. There's not much thats cool. Its slow. Its buggy. its the best windows ever.

its like saying that the zune looks like an ipod, and the iphone looks like the zune.

I'm using it and love it! (2, Funny)

jmagar.com (67146) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667114)

Vista is fantastic!

Re:I'm using it and love it! (1)

skoaldipper (752281) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667912)

Hmm. Article praises Vista. Slashdotter praises Vista. Moderator deems slashdotter a troll. What's wrong with this picture? Oh wait, nevermind...

Re:I'm using it and love it! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17668210)

Could you please enlighten us what is so fantastic in WV, something we can't get from Linux, Mac OS X or WXP ?
I can even get an addon to WXP so it looks and works like WV. What's the buzz ? What have we missed ?

My 2c (5, Interesting)

Toreo asesino (951231) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667138)

Vista is indeed a worthy improvement, but not a worthy upgrade. I'd buy it on a new PC, but in no way buy it outright...

UAC is one of the biggest improvements in my opinion; not in that it makes Windows nicer to use (far from it in fact), but that finally, Windows has adopted a more *nix based approach to user-security (in at least, you don't have to be a full admin to do anything useful, and full-admin rights are difficult to obtain) and thank god for that!

But like I say, I'm not rushing out to buy it...and not many people will either if you ask me.

Re:My 2c (5, Informative)

ThinkFr33ly (902481) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667292)

Perhaps you're not fully aware of all of the new features in Vista [wikipedia.org] .

Re:My 2c (3, Informative)

0100010001010011 (652467) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667678)

Most of these "New and Updated Applications" are stuff I've had for years on my Mac.
DVD, Mail, Calendar, Addressbook, Fax & Scan.

Windows Imaging Component sounds identical to Core Image

Re:My 2c (3, Funny)

dan828 (753380) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667754)

Most of these "New and Updated Applications" are stuff I've had for years on my Mac.
DVD, Mail, Calendar, Addressbook, Fax & Scan.

Windows Imaging Component sounds identical to Core Image


Pfffttt. The new version of minesweeper rocks! Don't have that on you Mac, do you?

Re:My 2c (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667560)

Well if you work in IT then it would be foolish not to buy a major Windows release such as Vista, even if it's just to putz around with in your spare time.

Re:My 2c (3, Insightful)

nine-times (778537) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667868)

Honestly, I have software assurance, and therefore free upgrades to Vista, but I'm not budging from Windows XP. And I'm not just saying that I need time to test it, or I'll wait for SP1. I'm saying I don't fricken want the thing. I've tried it out on a couple systems, in some cases having a harder time getting it to work that I've had with XP. It won't run some old Windows software, or at least not properly, so I'd have to buy a whole bunch of new software. The new interface is annoying. UAC is annoying. The whole thing is just maddening to use.

It doesn't seem to me that I'll be missing out on anything if I choose not to upgrade, either. None of the new features are particularly helpful. Not one. I'm just not going to run Vista until Windows XP won't run on new hardware being manufactured.

Someone is alittle too idealistic... (0, Troll)

Dasupalouie (1038538) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667172)

Also, despite Vista's claimed security improvements, you will still have to run, and keep updating, security programs, which can be annoying and burdensome.
Does his mother make his bed for him still?

Re:Someone is alittle too idealistic... (3, Insightful)

p0tat03 (985078) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667306)

Does his mother make his bed for him still?

I use a Mac, I have no need for third-party spyware hunters or virus protection. Windows users have accepted this whole battle-against-spyware thing as an integral part of the computing experience. While I believe that this is unavoidable given Windows' market share, a hassle-free virus-free zero-paranoia computing environment is possible.

Re:Someone is alittle too idealistic... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667420)

..and thus when it (hassle-free virus-free zero-paranoia computing environment) is promised but not delivered, it tends to get people a bit annoyed

Re:Someone is alittle too idealistic... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17668370)

Meh. Lets see where that smug Apple derived self-satisfication goes when (or if) apple ever delivers an OS that has greater than 10% market penetration. I'm sure there are a few virus writers out there that won't mind a different target besides ol' faithful 80% M$.

Honestly, I hate M$ and apple for very different reasons, but i hate smug self-satisfaction from mac users the most.

(Insightful?? Mods are on crack)

Re:Someone is alittle too idealistic... (0, Flamebait)

s20451 (410424) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667402)

Does his mother make his bed for him still?

Are you saying you're in favor of an OS being insecure out of the box because it teaches personal responsibility?

Re:Someone is alittle too idealistic... (1)

nelsonal (549144) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667438)

Yeah, it should not only be insecure out of the box, it should come with a trojan.

Re:Someone is alittle too idealistic... (5, Funny)

gb506 (738638) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667968)

Because we all know that with insecure women, trojans are a very good investment...

Re:Someone is alittle too idealistic... (4, Insightful)

WhiteWolf666 (145211) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667510)

Uhh...

Unix users don't really worry about these things. As an admin, I occasionally poke around to make sure everything is okay (verify checksums once in a while), but invariably, everything is fine.

I ran a virus scan for fun, once. (ClamAV).

Once you setup a Unix-y network, you just leave it, and things tend to keep working until the machines rust. I'm including Apple in this category, but we've got plenty of Linux machines around, too.

It's not so much a mother still makes the bed for me, as it is a I enjoy city-provided water and natural gas supply. I don't like lugging propane cyclinders, I hate chopping wood, and I wouldn't stand for no-running-water.

Why should you spend ANY of your computing time. If you're going to waste your time, at least waste it on Slashdot, not Norton Anti-virus.

Re:Someone is alittle too idealistic... (1)

choseph (1024971) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668350)

Part of this comes down to the general awareness of the users. It sounds like Walt knows just enough to make him worry, but not enough to put him at ease.

I've been just fine surfing my porn and crackz on my windows box for 10 years with and without antivirus, but I've never been infected. Sure, I've gotten the virus mails, but I haven't opened them and I've had automatic updates on (why not, on my simple home system). For only a couple years have I had a simple router which adds another safety stop for incoming, unrequested evil.
My parents run as admin (oooh, evil) but I've scared them into never running anything from email. I'm sure my younger brother surfs for crackz and porn at home. No viruses there in 10 years either.

All this whining about manual work required seems like a bunch of bunk and FUD. Most home users don't need it for their simple system setup.

Security (1)

ja (14684) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667606)

You need not be that sarcastic ... We are very pleased with the abso-f*ing-lutely paranoid level of security implemented in the new and improved Vista. Where we may have failed in scr*ing legitimate users back to front, Vista will surely conquer!

Greatings from your friendly local RIAA and MPAA officer :-D

Re:Someone is alittle too idealistic... (1)

naked_biker (985687) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668192)

What do you expect? Mossberg is the same guy who just wrote an article in Smart Money predicting the internet will become a massive grid and everything will be plugged into it - very original thinking. Thankfully, it appears to be his last article for the magazine.

Installing Vista (1)

ThanatosMinor (1046978) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667230)

I work for an IT consulting firm, and nearly all of our clients' workstations are Windows. Considering how many installs I have to do for various people on various hardware, I can tell you that one of the things that I'm most interested in seeing is how well Vista's image-based install works and how easily apps, patches, and upgrades can be slipstreamed into the install disk. Now, while I would love for the world to be open source, I am required daily to work with Windows and I will be quite happy if they've managed to make it significantly faster and easier for me to install a business version of Windows on one of those Fry's floor model computers with Media Center installed that clients love to buy every now and then.

ignore the users (2, Interesting)

cpearson (809811) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667234)

Windows Vista is not going to be the godsend to users like microsoft made it out to be. Instead of focusing on user needs and wants, microsoft design with its own profitability in mind, ie DRM, licensing, authenication, certified drivers, and of course protected premium content (HD). A compnay has every right to do this but I think it is going to backfire unless microsoft starts working with users instead of against them.

Vista Help Forum [vistahelpforum.com]

Re:ignore the users (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668170)

Hmm, but to be fair, there are lots of features new to Vista besides licensing and DRM. :-p

Among things I find interesting is the new memory manager and process scheduler, shadow copies, the new driver model to run more in user mode that should help against driver bugs, the new low latency audio stack, as well as things like their full IPv4 overhaul. The latter will be interesting to see if it has any negative side effects though from being a bit unproven code in the real world. The new TCP stack will for example be much better at adjusting e.g. the receive window depending on current network conditions for better throughputs, as well as improved recoveries from packet losses. Vista will now also distribute e.g. network transfer processing across more than one processor on e.g. dual cores.

Anyway, there are tons of things like these, and Vista should (at least we are to be fair) be taken as the major version upgrade it is, with updates littered throughout the OS, and not something where Microsoft added Windows Media Player 11 with HDMI support. :-p

Re:ignore the users (2, Interesting)

NineNine (235196) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668296)

certified drivers,

If this isn't for the users, then who is it for? Do you think that MS is hiring hundreds (thousands?) of people to maintain this for fun? Are they going to make a significant amount of money from this? No, this is most definitely for the users.

I've never seen XP crash, but the last time I've seen Windows 2000 crash was because of drivers. At this point in OS development, there's really no reason for crashing except for bad drivers (And yes, I don't think that OSX should crash ever, since they have hardware lock-in). I'm looking forward to certified drivers, because then I know that I don't have to worry about whatever new doo-dad I have hosing any of my machines.

Shocking! (-1, Troll)

ThinkFr33ly (902481) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667238)

Wait! Walter Mossberg, the paragon of unbiased and informed tech journalism, isn't impressed with Vista!?

Wow! I guess I'll go ahead an uninstall it. Here I was, all this time, really loving Vista and appreciating its massive list of new features [wikipedia.org] ... when all along I was just using XP with a pretty face.

Re:Shocking! (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667408)

Well if your RFA he said major new features. A lot of these are minor or so transparent to the user that it is difficult to comment on. He never said don't use it, he said don't bother upgrading unless you have a new system that has it. Otherwise it is not worth the money. As a Mac User I have enjoyed use many of Vistas new features for years.

Re:Shocking! (1)

Vellmont (569020) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668338)


Here I was, all this time, really loving Vista and appreciating its massive list of new features...

And do you appreciate them by just looking at a nice list and drooling, or do you actually get anything tangible from that list of features?

I've read over the list before, and while I personally think some of them are cool, I don't think the average user cares two bits about improved IPV6, or the fact that you don't have to reboot to install new video drivers. I think they're important features, don't get me wrong. But for the average user it's not really something they should upgrade over.

He likes it, but doesnt want to say he likes it (4, Insightful)

derrickh (157646) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667244)

Have you ever felt that sometimes people go out of their way to put down Microsoft.

Basically the article says:
Vista is the best version of Windows ever...But its not.
Vista is very secure...But only if secure it.
You get a free Antivirus program...Buts its not as good as the ones you have to pay for.
Vista is very easy to use...But I still had to click on stuff, so it sucks
Vista has a cool search feature...But Apple had it first.

D

Re:He likes it, but doesnt want to say he likes it (1)

moranar (632206) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667544)

Basically the article says:
Vista is the best version of Windows ever...But its not.
Vista is very secure...But only if secure it.
You get a free Antivirus program...Buts its not as good as the ones you have to pay for.
Vista is very easy to use...But I still had to click on stuff, so it sucks
Vista has a cool search feature...But Apple had it first.

No, what he said is more like:
Vista is the best version of Windows ever... But it's not that much better. These two statements can be both true, you know?
Vista is secure... But only if you care about it. I don't see how that's false. Security is a process, not a state.
You get a free Antispyware program... But it's not as good as the ones you have to pay for. Might also be true, I don't know.
Vista is very easy to use... But I still had to click on stuff, so it sucks Well, it sucks to have to work more for the same thing. In this case it's for a good reason, but it still sucks.
Vista has a cool search feature... But Apple had it first. I don't see the problem. This is true. It's a fair report.

There might be other reasons to buy Vista, and other reasons not to, but in general, to the public of the WSJ this is a good analysis on what to expect. To me, it didn't include much on DRM, but I'm not the target of the article.

Re:He likes it, but doesnt want to say he likes it (1)

Creepy Crawler (680178) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668026)

---Security is a process, not a state.

WRONG!! Ever hear of OFF?

yeah, Ill stop being an ass ;-)

Re:He likes it, but doesnt want to say he likes it (1)

dotpavan (829804) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667658)

He wrote the article when he was plucking the petals:
I love Vista
I love Mac..

Re:He likes it, but doesnt want to say he likes it (1)

Frumious Wombat (845680) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667900)

He said, "it's the best Windows ever" in that same voice you use for "It's the Tallest Building in Topeka". It is an honor, but who cares?

Personally, I love that the search icon is virtually identical to the one on my Mac, located in the same spot on the screen, but turned Backwards. Basically, it's the "Evil Spock" version of MacOS. The goatee is cool, but in the end, which would you rather work with?

Re:He likes it, but doesnt want to say he likes it (4, Informative)

Vellmont (569020) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668218)


Have you ever felt that sometimes people go out of their way to put down Microsoft.

No, I feel that the reviewer was expecting more from 5 years of development, and not to be burdened by hefty hardware requirements to take advantage of the new improvements. He compares it to OS X because it's gotten steadily better over the past 5 years, where the offerings from Microsoft, a much larger and richer company isn't really worthy of 5 years of development efforts.

Really I think the article sounds quite honest. He mentions that there's some improvements, but the majority of people don't have the hardware to take advantage of the improvements. The average guy is wondering "Should I upgrade to Vista?" not "Does this guy like Vista or not?" The article essentially say that unless you have a gig or more of memory, a recent computer, and a fast graphics processor.. Vista doesn't provide any benefits worth upgrading for.

Ultimately I think it indicates a larger problem at Microsoft. It's been more than 5 years since XP, the last desktop OS from Microsoft. That's pretty horrible considering that previously Microsoft has released a new desktop OS every about every 2 or 2.5 years (3.1 in 92, 3.11 in 93, 95 in 95, 98 in 98, 98 SE in 99, ME in 2000, WT2K in 2000, XP in 2001).

Look at all the major changes in previous 5 year spans. Compare Windows 3.11 in 93 to Windows 98 in 98, or Windows 95 in 95 to Windows 2000 in 2000 and you'll see what I'm talking about. Hell, compare the initial (really awfull) release of OSX 10.0 to the decent release of 10.4 only 4 years later. Sure there's a lot more to improve in OS X since it was so totally new.. but the fact that Apple can pull off more in less time doesn't speak well for Microsoft.

The best thing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667252)

The best thing about this...

Cost for a new copy of XP will probably go down.

Best Windows version ever? (5, Funny)

ThanatosMinor (1046978) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667360)

Seems to me kind of like saying "Best Pauly Shore movie ever"

Re:Best Windows version ever? (1)

QRDeNameland (873957) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667672)

Seems to me kind of like saying "Best Pauly Shore movie ever"

or being "the prettiest Denny's waitress." (apologies to Doug Stanhope)

OT, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17668050)

Pauly Shore actually does have a decent movie. It's Pauly Shore Is Dead [imdb.com] .

However, I'm still posting as AC.

Congratulations, Microsoft Users! (4, Insightful)

WhiteWolf666 (145211) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667376)

I'm glad that you can be welcomed to the world of the-rest-of-us, with Operating System features we've had since 2005 or so.

Now, I can only hope that Microsoft got this security "issue" fixed, so that you PC users will stop spamming me with sexually explicit crap and drug sales, and maybe my shared cable modem speeds will go up, with the worms circulating the internet being fixed in Vista.

Hopefully, in time, I can welcome you all to the world of computing with minimal/no time spent on security and maintenance. Either way, I'm glad the world is catching up.

Re:Congratulations, Microsoft Users! (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668224)

Now, I can only hope that Microsoft got this security "issue" fixed, so that you PC users will stop spamming me with sexually explicit crap and drug sales

Sorry, the "issue" you're looking at is likely called "users", which gives me little hope in that it will be resolved anytime soon, unless you or others are to present them with a much more locked down OS.

New Games (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667384)

It sucks that Microsoft isn't going to allow some of the newer "Games for Windows" to run on anything but Vista. I heard that when Bungie releases Halo 2 on the PC, it's going to be a Vista only title. It kind of pisses me off, because I never really wanted to upgrade to XP to play PC games, but ultimately I had to, and now the same will be true of Vista. I might just quit playing "Games for Windows" if this keeps up.

Modular design [perhaps off-topic] (1)

rumith (983060) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667388)

Explain to me please, why doesn't Microsoft sell their so-called OS in parts? I mean, you need to get the basic platform without GUI - pay x dollars, you want Aero glass - pay y more; compilers and developer tools are free, but with a restrictive license, etc. Even if their software remains [my personal opinion] the bunch of crap that it is now, it would bring them more cash and customer trust than this "I-want-it-all-right-now-I-said" attitude. Besides, they would no longer have to convince the [my personal opinion] unlucky Windows users to upgrade every N years and would stabilize their revenue.

Re:Modular design [perhaps off-topic] (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667714)

Do you really want more versions of Windows than this? http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/feb0 6/02-26WinVistaProductsPR.mspx [microsoft.com]

Re:Modular design [perhaps off-topic] (1)

rumith (983060) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667956)

Well, um, I don't want any versions of Windows at all. And having multiple 'versions' is not what I mean: I can't just install Aero on Win2000, or buy Vista without GUI at all. Not that I would do it even if it was possible.

The Microsoft Tax revisited (1)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667396)

So it's time for Microsoft to prop up their revenue stream. This is no surprise. Several flavours, which means you can decide how much tax you want to pay, based upon your needs. The curve, however continues to flatten and you'll find there are still a lot of Win 95, Win 98, Win ME, Win 2000 and Win XP users who won't budge until they have to. (We just retired a Win 95 machine at work) Microsoft will continue to pull support for many of these legacy users, but many are beyond caring.

I suppose the timing of Vista has something to do with a Superbowl media blitz, more than the code being ready. Though I'll likely switch to a Mac before I go to Vista, It would be interesting to look it over and see if security is any closer to that we enjoyed on Mainframes 20 years ago. Probably only a little bit more. Geez, it's like these people never seem to get it and Windows continues to be the technology equivelent of the Tar Baby. Meanwhile, they've got billions in reserve, which at least some of should have gone into better development.

Re:The Microsoft Tax revisited (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667914)

You are under the assumption that technologically 'better' makes them money.

If they wanted better in the sense of quality OS and not money maker, then they would write code that worked in a manner where the OS could mature instead of age.

Remember:
Good software matures, bad software ages. -Me

Gaming and Vista (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667414)

So when can we expect games with DirectX10 as a requirement, thus forcing gamers to buy Vista?

WinXP will never progress beyond DX9 so not upgrading is not possible.

The Carmack has spoken (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667654)

John Carmack said in a recent interview that there is no pressing need for DX10 in the near future. He said DX10 is nice, but it's not a huge leap forward and there is no apparent reason to develop DX10 only games at this time. It sounded like he was hinting that he expects all the next-gen engines to still run fine with DX9; definitely the next engine from id will run with DX9.

*yawn* (0, Flamebait)

Robert Goatse (984232) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667446)

Yawn...another Vista bashing story. They couldn't wait to put "apple's had this since bleh, bleh" in the first two sentences. Man, this place is so predictable.

Tomato Slicer (4, Funny)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667452)

from the it-cannot-slice-tomatoes dept.
Well, if you get the super duper upgrade maxi plus version of Vista for $800, it comes with accessories [photobucket.com] . But wait! Order within the next fifteen minutes and Steve Ballmer will throw in his patented hair growth formula! A $4500 value for 8 easy payments of $100 plus shipping and handling!

And OSX Tiger isn't much different than OSX 10.0 (2, Insightful)

I'm Don Giovanni (598558) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667504)

Vista must be pretty good for a Mac fanboy like Mossberg to not be able to totally trash it.

Regarding OSX:
Mossberg praises OSX, yet dismisses Vista with "Overall, it works pretty much the same way as Windows XP." Guess what, Mossberg, the same can be said for OSX Tiger. OSX 10.4 "overall works pretty much the same way as" OSX 10.3, 10.2, 10.1, 10.0. Yet Mossberg acted like OSX Tiger was the second coming, that it was a compelling upgrade over Panther. Well, when you compare OSX Tiger with Panther, Tiger adds nothing major except Spotlight and Dashboard. Well Vista gets those same things (and more), so if Tiger is a major improvement over Panther (as Mossberg and other Mac fanboys claim), then Vista must be at least as much a major improvement over XP. That's just logic. Of course, use of logic is foreign to those practiced in fanboyism.

Re:And OSX Tiger isn't much different than OSX 10. (3, Insightful)

catbutt (469582) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667750)

I don't think that's fair to compare the transition from XP to Vista to OS X 10.3 to 10.4. That's basically comparing one year worth of Mac improvements to 5 of Windows'.

Re:And OSX Tiger isn't much different than OSX 10. (2)

geekoid (135745) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667792)

Let me understand this.

You are comparing a software companies major NEW OS to a hardware companies revision of their OS.

Are you really that big of a dork, or just too stupid to see the difference?

I don't even own a Mac, and just to be perfectly clear I am picking apart your absurd comparison, not supporting one side ot another.

Re:And OSX Tiger isn't much different than OSX 10. (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668014)

You are comparing a software companies major NEW OS to a hardware companies revision of their OS.

I disagree with your point but only because Apple charges for each revision.

If Apple is such a hardware company, why the emphasis on milking your customers for more money for mere revisions? This is nothing new either; sometimes you get a free point upgrade from Apple, sometimes you don't. Each OSX update has come with new functionality, so that is different, and a point that will be raised by Apple fans; arguably that means that each Apple revision is actually a new product. This point of view is strengthened by two facts. One of them is the aforementioned truth that you have to pay. Another is that Apple is changing the way things are done in their OS which makes it a burden to support older versions. It seems like a majority of software for Apple today does not support 10.2; you even need 10.3.9 in many cases. Whereas in general most software will run on Win2k, WinXP, and Win2k3, much of it also running even on NT4. Most of the software will also run on Vista and presumably much of what is written for Vista will still work on XP and other, older versions of NT. Aside from IBM, Microsoft is still the king of backwards compatibility. On the desktop, that title is undisputed.

Re:And OSX Tiger isn't much different than OSX 10. (2, Interesting)

Drizzt Do'Urden (226671) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667898)

CoreImage and CoreVideo came with 10.4, as is CoreData.

The 2 first get's used in some games and some compositing software, the other is still in it's infancy and should get more maturity with 10.5.

So, to the user, it's almost as big a step between 10.3 and 10.4 than between WinXP and WinVista.

Re:And OSX Tiger isn't much different than OSX 10. (4, Insightful)

sootman (158191) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667924)

This has nothing to do with fanboyism. The difference is, OS X from 10.0 to 10.1 (faster) to 10.2 (smoother looking) to 10.3 (expose) to 10.4 (dashboard, spotlight) has had lots of improvements, and each previous release was only a year or so apart, and 10.4 came out over a year ago, while Vista took the largest software company in the world 5 years to come up, stripping features the whole time, which is is just coming out now. (Where by "now" I mean "soon.") So of course the differences in each version of OS X are smaller, and of course it's more impressive to have had a product with most of the same features out sooner, and of course MS looks like crap for taking so long to deliver so little.

Add to that the system requirements, the many different versions, and Microsoft's abysmal security record--their response to which is mostly to ask users "Are you sure you want to do this?" before every trivial operation, AND NOT EVEN REQUIRING AN ADMIN PASSWORD TO SAY 'YES'--and you can see why people aren't getting excited about it.

On a related note, I think it would be the funniest thing in the world if Apple announced tomorrow that 10.5 would be released on Monday the 29th. :-)

Re:And OSX Tiger isn't much different than OSX 10. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17668204)

and youll rush to buy another point release that is the equivelant of a glorified service pack. Apple posts security updates all the time. Granted most are much harder to execute than windows flaws but they are still there and because of the macboy fanaticism most dont upgrade their machines if there was actually enough macs to make it worth a hackers time they would probably have even more known vulnerabilities and problems. I administer macs and windows and most of our problems are with MACS... say it aint so alex... they lock up, they beachball, our xserve every few months just decides it wont boot and has to be restored. I get so sick of the Mac fanatics acting like their machines never have problems the only group i know more full of crap than our politicians is mac fanboys

Re:And OSX Tiger isn't much different than OSX 10. (1)

The Great Skeeve (1050582) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668148)

You are comparing dot versions to full versions. If you want to be accurate you should be comparing XP to Vista as the same as Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X.

Re:And OSX Tiger isn't much different than OSX 10. (2, Insightful)

Jerry Rivers (881171) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668272)


"Mossberg praises OSX"

Does he? Other than mentioning some features of Vista which also appear in OS X, all he really says about it is:

"Nearly all of the major, visible new features in Vista are already available in Apple's operating system, called Mac OS X, which came out in 2001 and received its last major upgrade in 2005. And Apple is about to leap ahead again with a new version of OS X, called Leopard, due this spring."

How is that praising OS X? Should he not compare Vista to another OS? Or should he do so only in glowing terms to avoid being labeled a "fanboy"?

Re:And OSX Tiger isn't much different than OSX 10. (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668318)

Also, don't now go upgrade someone's computer to Vista for someone who needs to run Windows for one reason or another just because of his idea of "it wasn't so different from XP anyway". The Explorer has been reworked quite a bit, the Control Panel navigation is very different (again!), and there's the whole concept with file tagging and virtual folders for novices to wrap their heads around... and when failing with that, which gets me to my point -- call closest tech support! ;-)

The BEST reason to switch! (5, Funny)

NorbrookC (674063) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667512)

FTA: even a slicker version of Solitaire

What more could you want?

Re:The BEST reason to switch! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667776)

I hear there's an Easter Egg in the new Solitaire which causes the Queens to expose their tits.

Re:The BEST reason to switch! (1)

neimon (713907) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667856)

Can I still play it with the keyboard like I could 20 years ago?

(Stupid cheap company wouldn't buy a mouse back then)

Yawn...(pointless article) (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17667542)

This would be credible if Walt wasn't on the take. Nothing he says is of value because he has been bought and paid for by Apple. I will go as far as to say that I think there are a number of credible sources that he actually has taken money for writing positive reviews of Apple products. If you do not believe me do a Google search, explore his education and business connections.

Works like XP is a recommendation? (4, Interesting)

vtcodger (957785) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667578)

***Overall, it works pretty much the same way as Windows XP.***

That's sort of like overall this year's flu virus is a lot like last year's. Or President Bush's new Iraq strategy isn't much different from the old strategy. Hardly a recommendation.

I just spent an hour finding and killing some mysterious Browser Helper Object on my wife's XP-SP2 PC that devoted its life to helping out the browser by popping up ads in IE. At least I think I killed it. Every year, the malware gets more clever. Every release, the software gets more bloated and complex. Every year, the Internet becomes more of a mess and it is harder to find information on exorcising malware, or on persuading Windows to do even the most simple and basic things. And every year I get older, dumber, and less interested in dinking with Windows just in order to do stuff I do find interesting.

Screw it. I never upgraded to XP, and I don't believe that I'll be upgrading to Vista. I have finally moved from Windows 95 to Windows 98 despite the fact that W95 boots faster and runs as well. But only because I think eventually I will need USB that works and I don't think that will ever be available in Windows 95.

I don't really hate Microsoft, but they are going to have to do a lot better than NT based Windows desktops to make me a customer again. Let me know when MS releases an OS worth buying. It hasn't happened for quite a few years, and doesn't look likely to happen again any time soon.

Re:Works like XP is a recommendation? (1)

Jerry Rivers (881171) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667688)

Where did you get the idea that Mossberg was recommending Vista? The ONLY place the word "recommend" shows up in his article is in the following sentence:

"For most users who want Vista, I strongly recommend buying a new PC with the new operating system preloaded."

Issues of trust... (5, Interesting)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667604)

I've played with Vista a little bit. It is prettier than XP and I could see some interesting and promising features in the new OS, but I have issues with the DRM and security model.

The DRM embedded in Vista has been well hashed here and I believe the implementation will cause many people headaches, especially those wanting to view digital media.

I'm concerned about the new security levels of the OS and that there are two levels higher than Administrator, namely System and Trusted. The sticking point for me is that (as far as I know) no user on the system, not even the admin, can access these higher levels. In other words, we are not and cannot be "trusted".

I don't like the idea that there may be things on *my* computer that I cannot access, but Microsoft, or other entities they trust, can. I'm not sure I trust them that much...

Re:Issues of trust... (2, Interesting)

NSIM (953498) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668220)

The DRM embedded in Vista has been well hashed here and I believe the implementation will cause many people headaches, especially those wanting to view digital media.
blah, blah, blah. The DRM in Vista will simply obey the restrictions placed on the media by the supplier of that media, it won't magically add new DRM restrictions. It happily plays non-DRM content and also allows you do all the same things you did on XP like ripping CD to MP3, ripping DVD, etc. So just what is the monstrous DRM that is being foisted on unwilling consumers, yes it honors the Studio restrictions on playback of HD-DVD and BlueRay content, but that's to be expected. The only other options for MS would have been to ignore the studio restrictions and get taken to court and lose, or not support playback at all. Me I'm glad they chose to provide the option for me to play this content so that I can decide if I want to live the Studio's DRM requirements. I'm willing to bet that when OSX supports playback of the same content it will do it with exactly the same restrictions. Whether LINUX will ever play such media is another question entirely.

The consumers will suffer (3, Insightful)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 7 years ago | (#17667862)

The requirements for Vista will be the most annoying thing to consumers. Unlike XP, the basic sub $500 computer is not good enough to run most versions. The requirements difference between XP Home and Pro was not as large as it is between Vista Home Basic and Vista Home Premium. Most of the hardware requirement differences were based on the applications that the user would run. If the consumer was a gamer or edited home movies, he or she would need a better video card and more RAM. But with Vista these requirement differences are on the OS. This applies to businesses too where the modus operandi is to buy the cheapest solution as possible. So a business getting the lowest price computer finds that it is dramatically slower than XP on the same hardware is not likely to upgrade anytime soon.

Re:The consumers will suffer (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668140)

Unlike XP, the basic sub $500 computer is not good enough to run most versions.

The average consumer will not need anything other than the basic version.

You only need a fancier computer to get all the eye candy - the OS will still run programs. The only area in which users will typically have problems with the computer they already have is in memory. You can get away with 256MB on Windows XP if you don't mind suffering. Vista demands 512MB minimum. Frankly anyone with less than 512MB RAM today is already fooling only themselves, but it's not mandatory on Windows until you hit Vista.

But with Vista these requirement differences are on the OS.

Again, aside from consuming more disk space (most people seem to have free space on their computers, and I'm not talking about us nerds) and requiring more RAM, there is no difference. The OS itself is not going to consume substantially more CPU; in fact if you have a hardware-accelerated video card, it may consume less.

Security (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17668070)

I've kept a meticulous track of Novell's Linux security upgrades over the last year. There were 133 of them. ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE. I wonder how many XP had.

best windows evar? (1)

zmollusc (763634) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668086)

Does anyone know if the 2 windows 'features' that annoy me most have been fixed?
1) everything going on hold while the cdrom clatters and clangs around until it has sorted out a newly inserted disk.
2) when dragging and dropping 97,000 files, a read error on just one fricken file causes the whole operation to hold until a popup window is responded to.
I have been waiting for these to be fixed for some time now, so long in fact that my firewall/router, fileserver and laptop are all now linux. If i ever figure out how to get accelleratified 3d graphics working on my desktop box, i will be gaming on linux too.

It's Microsoft, what's new? (0)

jmerlin (1010641) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668092)

It would be wise not to forget the Xerox incident with Microsoft entering the arena with Windows 3.1 stealing technology from Apple. It just appears that they're at it again. I wish our government would get around to making things like this illegal. Many *nix distributions have supported so many features that Windows is now trying to "re-create" ( re-inventing the wheel seems like something Microsoft is fond of doing, even when the wheel is created and packaged with millions of vehicles already ), and Mac OS X has some very nice features to add to its BSD base which are now appearing in Windows.

How does our government allow a company that is so obviously entrenched in maintaining their monopoly over the Operating System market to make moves such as the ones shown with the coming Vista? Not to mention all of the enormous flaws with the system and the obvious security holes that are just waiting to be shown as the world "migrates" to Vista as Microsoft hopes. Forcing users to upgrade by removing support for previous versions of windows and announcing no support for DX10 on XP is the worst move that microsoft has ever made, or one of them. Not to mention nearly everything Microsoft has done in the past few years has been in violation of anti-trust laws even though they've been ruled with oversight by the Supreme Court for just such practices. When is the damn government going to get around to breaking Microsoft like it should have done years ago?

Every day Microsoft comes closer and closer to its demise. You may not believe so but they are constantly and continually enacting in anti-trust schemes to break competition and maintain their cash flow which they do not need. .NET was made to beat Java, Microsoft forces people to use their "stuff" or else they risk losing their distribution licenses, Microsoft applications use internal Windows API that aren't published for other developers to use giving them an advantage, Microsoft actively entices every game development company to use DirectX with some means to an end.. trying to destroy OpenGL, OpenAL and other OSS initiatives, and the list goes on and on and on. Constantly, every move they make is to break their competition and they do so by undermining them, and what do we have as a result: a dominance by Microsoft with very poor quality software and *MILLIONS* of viruses/trojans leading to serious problems. The government should simply break microsoft up and hopefully all of the developers will join the Linux dev team and other OSS projects to make the computing world what it could be instead of what it shouldn't be.

how is not full compatiblity to win32 worthy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17668116)

just wondering. If i were a company and invested into win32 heavily, i would not want to migrate to a system that's not fully win32 compatible. Those poor soles who upgrade will continue to deal with anti-consumer/pro-monopoly issues.

MSFT just can't win (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17668174)

first, they get beaten up for minimal security, so they put it in, then they get beaten up for too much security....

then some pro-Apple guy comes along and says that security seems to be a chore??? Does that mean he doesn't bother with any Mac updates? I mean c'mon... are we saying that this guy beleives in bug-free code?

WSJ? WTF???? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17668206)

Why is a NERD site (news for NERDS, stuff that matters, anyone?) posting a review of a computer operating system from the Wall Street Journal, a financial site?

I doubt very muchg that any nerd on the planet uses his computer in the same way as a capitalist greedhead on wall street.

Mod me offtopic, mod me flamebait, mod me A/C because I don't want to kill my excellent /. karma, but mod me a fucking NERD who doesn't give two shits what some asshole stock broker thinks about an OS.

What's next, a review of nmap from Philataly magazine? Christ but slashdot has gone downhill in the last few years.

I do NOT want to aee anything from the WSJ unless it's a story about Bill Gates applying for Food Stamps.

If it wasn't for the games... (4, Interesting)

Jaeph (710098) | more than 7 years ago | (#17668254)

If it wasn't for the games, I wouldn't even consider vista. I have a mac laptop, and that serves most of my needs just fine. However, the selection of games on a PC is better, so I keep upgrading mine to play them.

However, I'm starting to challenge my gaming habit, as it is getting tiresome to keep that PC going. It's not a technical challenge - I'm a typical slashdotter with experience in PCs, Macs, Unices of various sorts and so on. Nor is it a financial challenge; I have a decent job and could replace my PC now.

The issue is the work involved just to maintain a security hole for gaming, especially when there are a few decent games available on the Mac. They may not all be exactly the games I want, but they're decent and it's only gaming.

Now add a substantial OS upgrade to the mix, and I really am having a hard time justifying upgrading my PC more. Maybe I'll just get a console for choice in my games.

-Jeff
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