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Mac OS X Versus Windows Vista, The Rematch

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the let's-get-it-on dept.

OS X 709

An anonymous reader writes "InformationWeek follows up its widely read review where Mac OS X beat out Windows Vista in a head-to-head comparison, with a reader debate on which is really the superior operating system. From the article: 'Mac users love venting about Windows... Any company that calls their techs "geniuses" thrive in forums like this. They think they are "cool" and "hip," they don't care about the fact that they have to reset the permissions and turn on Appletalk every five minutes. Windows Vista all the way. If Windows sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with it than Mac OS X? Last time I checked, Windows wasn't just a business operating system. Tons upon tons of people use it and like it.'"

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first fucking post for windows (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684206)

what about linux?
Death to bush!

They submitter sould have saved themselves (5, Funny)

geekoid (135745) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684216)

some effort if they just submitted:
"MS/Apple flamewar. Begin."

Re:They submitter sould have saved themselves (5, Funny)

Funkcikle (630170) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684304)

Oh God. I hope nobody sees this article and gets all worked up. That would be awful.

Re:They submitter sould have saved themselves (5, Insightful)

rblancarte (213492) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684374)

Too late.

Overall, as a PC user, I really like to see the benefits of OS-X. To the chagrin of some of my friends, I actually plan on adding a Mac to my computer inventory very soon. I really like the system and think it has a good look/feel to it. Though a lot of my friends have knocked Apple quality and their lack of pre-announcement of products, instead letting a user blow $2k on a new laptop that they don't know in a week will be lower in price or that the same $2k would get twice the system the next week.

That being said, I really like XP, and due to the underwhelming interest in Vista, I think I am going to be sticking with XP for a while. I just don't see the need to upgrade to Vista right now.

RonB

Re:They submitter sould have saved themselves (5, Funny)

Funkcikle (630170) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684430)

See, I don't think "articles" and "debates" like the one in TFA are even remotely targeted at you - the demographic is squarely those people who, for some reason or other, want to talk and fight (online) about a product. You are clearly too level-headed and sensible. Not once in your comment did you write "FFS MAC IS GAY" or "OMG XP SUCKS".

You probably shouldn't even be using a computer...

Re:They submitter sould have saved themselves (0, Troll)

tritonman (998572) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684500)

9 out of 10 homosexuals prefer MacOS!

Re:They submitter sould have saved themselves (2, Funny)

caffeinemessiah (918089) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684552)

They think they are "cool" and "hip," they don't care about

Seriously, who uses the word "hip" anymore? This reminds me of a scene from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (book & movie) during the D.A. conference and the talk about drugs.

Re:They submitter sould have saved themselves (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684676)

You whippersnappers can't even spell hep right!

Re:They submitter sould have saved themselves (0, Troll)

alucardX (734977) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684582)

Who allowed such a poorly written article to be posted?

All in one page (4, Informative)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684220)

All in one page [informationweek.com] for those of us who hate ad-spammy articles.

Appletalk? (4, Insightful)

AltGrendel (175092) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684222)

Serious question.

Who the hell uses Appletalk any more?

Is this for printer or something?

Re:Appletalk? (4, Insightful)

Golias (176380) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684366)

I kind of wondered about that, too. It's like his only real experience with the Mac comes from back in the System 7 days or something.

They think they are "cool" and "hip," they don't care about the fact that they have to reset the permissions and turn on Appletalk every five minutes

Reset the permissions? I've been running multiple OS X systems since 10.0, and I've never had to "reset the permissions" even once. I'm not even sure I know where to look to do something like that. WTF is he talking about?

I would like to get all riled up over his flamebait... but I mostly just feel sorry for the poor, confused person writing this nonsense.

Re:Appletalk? (2, Insightful)

rbanffy (584143) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684484)

Sadly, most Windows fanboys never used anything but Windows.

Re:Appletalk? (4, Informative)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684556)

Reset the permissions? I've been running multiple OS X systems since 10.0, and I've never had to "reset the permissions" even once. I'm not even sure I know where to look to do something like that. WTF is he talking about?

I'm using 10.3.something on a dual G5 and I had a problem (forget what it even was now) that was fixed by using the disk repair tool to "repair permissions" on the volume. I suspect that is what he is talking about. Apple claims that problems like that come up only seldom but anecdotal evidence out there suggests that is bullshit if you are a power user. Why perms get mangled is beyond me, I don't seem to have that problem on my Linux systems...

Re:Appletalk? (1)

Ucklak (755284) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684670)

The "repair permissions" is when you do a software upgrade like 10.3.1 to 10.3.2 and so on.

It's not required and honestly, I've never had problems with not doing it. I've gone months without rebooting too saving whatever latest update that requires a reboot to do just that.

I figure that if repair permissions is a requirement, it would be part of the upgrade process.

Re:Appletalk? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684772)

...but anecdotal evidence out there suggests that is bullshit if you are a power user.
This claim smells fishy to me...I've borked my OS X system more times than I can count and I've never had to do anything like that. Granted, I never used OS X before 10.4 (I switched from FreeBSD when my work bought me a PowerBook), but I don't think it's for lack of trying that I've never seen this issue.

Re:Appletalk? (1)

djh101010 (656795) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684644)

I would like to get all riled up over his flamebait... but I mostly just feel sorry for the poor, confused person writing this nonsense.
Yup. Typical of a "I am going to dislike (thing) based on a lack of understanding of same". People who argue from that point of view can safely be ignored; they have nothing to add to the conversation. Obviously whoever wrote the summary is, they don't have any current OSX experience.

Re:Appletalk? (1)

MrHanky (141717) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684656)

I imagine he's thinking of "repair permissions" in the disk utility. If you read Mac forums, you'll see it's considered as the first thing to try whenever someone asks for help with a strange problem. And no, it doesn't always help.

Re:Appletalk? (4, Insightful)

sokoban (142301) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684706)

Another guy says "Windows doesn't have font issues, changing permissions on the fly". What the fuck does he mean by "changing permissions of the fly"? chmod? And what "font issues" are he talking about? I sure as hell haven't ever had any, though I've only been using Mac OS since 6.0.8.

Also, there's the guy who talks about Windows being "IT's 'Dream'" because there are a lot of people who have jobs just supporting Windows. Is the fact that Windows requires a lot of technical support supposed to be a good thing?

Most people I know who read Information Week are IT folks of the A+/MCSE variety, so I guess this giant steaming load of an article really does reflect that.

Re:Appletalk? (1)

happyemoticon (543015) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684520)

I'm a recent Mac convert, I've got four systems at home between myself and my fiancee, and I wasn't sure what Appletalk was until I looked it up just now. We use AFP for file sharing, and I'm pretty sure the printer is just running a CUPS server or something else fairly banal.



The quote in the article, then, is just flamebait. You might as well criticize Windows Vista for requiring cryptic edits to config.sys and autoexec.bat in order to run Dark Forces.

Re:Appletalk? (1)

shmlco (594907) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684746)

Heh. I should check my old system, 'cause I bet those autoexec changes are still there...

Re:Appletalk? (1)

Ucklak (755284) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684770)

AFP is a component of AppleTalk.

Can't go wrong with using SMB for your local network.

Re:Appletalk? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684586)

It's about as valid as a Mac user claiming that Windows needs to be rebooted every day, or that they get blue screens "all the time" or that installing anything means you have to restart the machine.

Everyone picks on things that may have, at one time or another, been a hair on the system but has since been cleaned up since they don't know enough about the other system to have an educated debate.

That said, who really cares? If Windows floats your boat, use Windows. If Mac floats your boat, use Mac. The people responding to these articles get their boat floated by spouting off online; it has nothing to do with the OS.

(Ah, irony...captcha: idealism)

Re:Appletalk? (1)

Brian Gordon (987471) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684728)

The problem is those infuriating mac commercials! Macs. Are. Not. Better.

Re:Appletalk? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684596)

Barely anyone. But it still is in the operating system as of Mac OS X 10.4 ("Tiger"). I have used it, yes, to connect to printers (Bonjour, née Zeroconf, is better). But I have never experienced anything like this claim of renewing it every five minutes. Not even in 10.3, 10.2, 10.1, 10.0 or the beta. Maybe the complainant's routing hardware is not up to spec?

Since AC's can only post once in a while, I have another question: Is Windows Vista even shipping yet? I know I can't get it at my institution (which has a fat contract with Microsoft) although they will sell you a license, I guess, for future use? Not that most of the computers at our location could even support the resource requirements.

Re:Appletalk? (4, Informative)

ElephanTS (624421) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684688)

No, just about no one uses Appletalk anymore. It's still in OSX and I use it on one of the networks I run so an old printer can work. It's very stable but has been superceded by TCP/IP and rendezvous/bonjour. It's such a great trollish comment because it's about 10 years out of date as a criticism. Bit like me saying," Windows BSODs every 5 minutes".

It doesn't (it's up to 15 now I hear. Relax keyboard commandos - I'm joking 8-)

well, (4, Informative)

macadamia_harold (947445) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684226)

InformationWeek follows up its widely read review where Mac OS X beat out Windows Vista in a head-to-head comparison

If I remember correctly, that "comparison" was mostly based on the author's personal preferences. That's more of an editorial.

Appletalk? (3, Interesting)

NoName Studios (917186) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684250)

Do people still use Appletalk?

I have two Macs at home and I can not remember using it.

Re:Appletalk? (5, Insightful)

oncee (216065) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684404)

The only reason to use Appletalk would be because you have an extremely old printer that didn't do TCP/IP. Appletalk is pretty much dead after OS X came around.

We may *use* windows, but like it? (4, Interesting)

pdboddy (620164) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684254)

Hah, use it? Yes. Like it? Nooooo. Tolerate it like a drunk uncle grabbing your ass at a wedding. Windows sucks ass.

But it's where the games are. First of Linux or Apple OS to get all the games Windows gets, and I'd change in a heartbeat.

Re:We may *use* windows, but like it? (-1, Troll)

erroneus (253617) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684396)

Unkess, of course, you grow up and not need games so much any more.

I used to be quite the gamer, but eventually, I found that many games require too much mental commitment from me to play. I still play games, but they tend to be ones that I can shut off in a split second and not worry about it. (Ever play GridWars? Nice game under Linux.)

So maybe when you decide you'd rather create something or even do something with your free time that doesn't involve a computer at all, give Linux a full-on try.

On an asside note, my last reason for preferring Windows was Japanese language support... that reason disappeared several years ago though.

Re:We may *use* windows, but like it? (1)

Scooter's_dad (833628) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684540)

Unkess, of course, you grow up and not need games so much any more.

(snip)

On an asside note...

Your diatribe against gaming seemed pretty asside to me.

Re:We may *use* windows, but like it? (1)

sumdumass (711423) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684734)

It is ironic though. All the games would not necessarily mean "all the games" if they take somewhat of a mental commitment. It would be near impossible to play them "all". I'm pretty sure that all the games could be narrowed down a little. Maybe to all the games i care about or something similar. But then there is a cascade effect were more people playing more games on other operating systems would mean more games being developed for those operating systems.

From that point, I'm wondering what doesn't play errr what doesn't play without some considerable effort in making it work.

Re:We may *use* windows, but like it? (1)

pdboddy (620164) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684742)

I intend to be playing games until I die, computer or no computer. Too much empirical evidence stating the benefits of gaming to give them up any time soon. Improvements in hand-eye coordination, keeping the brain young, the social aspects, even health benefits for those playing DDR and other games requiring movement.

Linux and Windows and Apple OS have many, many similarities, and for the work environment I can and do use all three. But, for my gaming machine at home, it runs Windows. I want the latest games, and thought this doesn't mean I stop playing the older ones entirely, I do like seeing the latest graphics, and innovate games. And for now, this means Windows.

But to tie this to the original post, I use Windows, but I don't like it. Gaming is just one reason, but it's the main one for me.

Re:We may *use* windows, but like it? (1)

zlogic (892404) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684626)

If OS X could be installed on nearly any machine, your point would be valid. But unfortunately it doesn't run on most hardware, and everything Apple is offering doesn't suit me. It either costs too much (my HP laptop cost less than the Mac Mini, and the Mini doesn't have a monitor, battery, keyboard etc.) or like the Macbook, entire classes are nonexistant - like the 15" laptop that's light enough to carry and yet big enough to be used as a desktop machine.

Re:We may *use* windows, but like it? (1)

MyOtherUIDis3digits (926429) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684710)

Hah, use it? Yes. Like it? Nooooo. Tolerate it like a drunk uncle grabbing your ass at a wedding.

Very well put (and I sure hope you're female, otherwise the uncle comparison gets really weird).

I just don't have time to play the anti-virus/rootkit/malware game, so my XP box (for games) never has and never will see the internet. I never got into online gaming due in large part to that. All my browsing, email, downloads, etc are done on my Powerbook.

And the more I read about Vista, the more it seems that XP will be that last Windows I ever buy. Hopefully in a couple of years when I'm buying my first Apple pc their gaming situation will have improved.

Oh this will end well.... (5, Funny)

snoozerdss (303165) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684274)

Tandy DeskMate 3.69 kicks all ass! ;)

informal tone (5, Insightful)

otacon (445694) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684276)

If Windows sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with it than Mac OS X?
How am I supposed to take this person's opinion seriously when they speak in a 13 year old's tone?

Re:informal tone (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684298)

Lots of people floss too, doesnt mean its enjoyable.

Re:informal tone (2, Funny)

geekschmoe (244913) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684360)

at least he's not talking in a pretentious tone... everyone knows that's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse...

Indeed...and Anatole France summed up such logic: (3, Interesting)

rootrot (103518) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684620)

"If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

There was also a time when the vast majority of people thougth that the world was flat...that didn't work out so well, either.

New results: Windows Wins! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684278)

Tally:

-Reliability: Windows
-User interface: Windows
-Cost: Windows (MacOS has to be updated every year)
-Compatibility: Windows (15 years old programs still work fine)
-Open architecture: Windows (Millions of applications are available)
-Vulnerability: MacOS (more viruses on Windows)
-Bugs: Tie

TOTAL: Windows wins.

Windows Vista is expected to have big market share than MacOS in just the next few months.

Re:New results: Windows Wins! (1, Informative)

pdboddy (620164) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684312)

Heh, 15 year old programs are fine? Vista doesn't run Rise of Nations, which is distributed by Microsoft. :P That game is only a few years old. Games for Windows... bleh.

Re:New results: Windows Wins! (1)

Utopia (149375) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684692)

It runs fine for me. (I have the Gold edition.)
Run it in app compatibility mode if you a video or audio driver issue.

Re:New results: Windows Wins! (4, Informative)

ebev (990444) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684488)

"-Reliability: Windows
  -User interface: Windows
Cost: Windows (MacOS has to be updated every year"

What? Come on now I know you need to lie to make Windows look better, but come on you have more blatant lies then Tony Snow. Mac OS has much better reliability then Windows everybody knows that. Windows Vista is just as bad as XP I have been using Vista at work for a month now and it crashes all the time. Also, that last part. What the Hell are you talking about? Mac Os $129 Windows "199 to $399. Its every two years by the way. I wish you people would get you facts straight before you come out on forums.

Re:New results: Windows Wins! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684572)

"Mac OS has much better reliability then Windows everybody knows that."

You know, in the face of such superior logic, no pro-Windows argument can stand.

Re:New results: Windows Wins! (2, Interesting)

p0tat03 (985078) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684760)

I work on OSX every day, I develop software for both OSX and Windows, and reliability-wise, OSX is not that much better than Windows. It's not the uncrashable behemoth that Mac fanboys would like to pretend it is, though I do find that as a general non-scientific statement it crashes less than Windows. This is due to a lot of factors, not the least of which is the fact that your hardware configs are limited, so driver conflicts that bring Windows to its knees simply do not have an opportunity to manifest itself on a Mac.

On the other hand, the user doesn't care *why* their machine doesn't work, just that it doesn't. Reliability-wise I would say OSX wins, but only by a slim margin.

Agreed on the UI though, Windows' UI has always been obfuscated to me, and I find OSX much more intuitive. I've convinced many people to switch to Mac, and other than the 2-week "OMG I CANT TO ANYTHING!" break-in period, all now prefer OSX to Windows.

Also agreed on cost. Windows costs an ass-load. OSX costs $100 every couple years. All in all I see the whole cost argument as pretty moot: nobody says you have to buy Vista and/or Leopard. Tiger/XP runs just fine, why is cost a factor in the OS wars at all?

Re:New results: Windows Wins! (1, Informative)

Salsaman (141471) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684762)

-Reliability: Linux
-User interface: Mac OS/Linux
-Cost: Linux - free

Linux wins.

Re:New results: Windows Wins! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684682)

"-Cost: Windows (MacOS has to be updated every year)"

This is just about the ignorant and asinine statement made in these forums in a long, long time.

the underlying argument (between the enemy lines) (2, Insightful)

yagu (721525) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684284)

I've long hated and resented Microsoft for what they've done to the competitive tech market and how they've done it.

That said, the arguments about which OS is better seem specious. I've used XP for years now, and find it to be overall quite excellent. I suspect (and based on what I've read so far) Vista will be very good too. That doesn't change how I feel about Microsoft... they're basically an asswipe company with an "I don't have to care, I'm Microsoft" attitude.

I recently purchased my first OS X machine. I find it excellent too, but never having had used it before I did have to make adjustments. I still find many things about it quirky.

I sometimes wish the argument would be more open... the debate about which is the finer OS mostly splits semantic hairs. The underlying "allegiance" and loyalties about which is the better company seems to be more what this is all about.

Microsoft trampled the marketplace, so much so it eventually had a DOJ judgement against it and subsequent consent decree. The damage done to innovation (in my opinion) and continuing to be done is irreparable. (Why in the world would technology continue to have to fight the idiocy and unmanageability of logical drives these days -- I know, there's a way not to, but Microsoft in a competitive market would have had to fix this long ago.)

Apple misstepped early and seemingly never cared. They focused on the education market, and never offered price competitive products. If you were a Mac loyalist, you paid the premium. But I believe that pride by Apple cut them off from an even larger audience and potentially a competitive slice of the PC market. Today they seem to be looking more closely at that -- you still pay a premium for Apple, but it isn't as harsh as before.

Bottom line, both companies have faults. But comparing OS X and Vista is almost a silly game. Both OSes are very good. I can argue one and I can argue the other. The more interesting discussion is what Microsoft's and Apple's roles are in contributing to the overall landscape of computing. I know where I stand on that one.

(For the record, when it comes time to get some real work done, I go running for the nearest Unix terminal, be it Solaris, HP-UX, Linux... doesn't matter, that's the OS and environment I find put together in the smartest way.)

Re:the underlying argument (between the enemy line (1)

Stewie241 (1035724) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684480)

hmmm... few comments... It is easy to hate Microsoft (which I kinda do), but you have to ask the question: would Apple have done it any differently? Isn't that what the Ipod is all about? I don't hear it pointed out often, but OS/X development is far easier than Vista development... How many different Mac computers are there? How many different configurations are there? AFAIK, you buy a Mac, you buy a complete package that comes from Apple, the same company that develops the OS. For Microsoft to develop Vista, it has to work on an almost infinite number of different configurations... even from the same vendor. Same reason Palm was generally pretty solid - they developed the platform, the OS, and all the standard apps. For this same reason, Linux is great but really makes things difficult for itself... it is wonderful to have choice (I use two different flavours of Linux), but this means a massive duplication of work. A standardized platform is much easier to distribute for than an immensely variable one. Presumably there was only one Windows XP kernel (maybe a few more), which in the same span there are many different Linux kernels, requiring different binary drivers...

Re:the underlying argument (between the enemy line (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684510)

(For the record, when it comes time to get some real work done, I go running for the nearest Unix terminal, be it Solaris, HP-UX, Linux... doesn't matter, that's the OS and environment I find put together in the smartest way.)

Amen to that. Your comment was looking more and more like the Democratic platform in 2004 until this point: "We're not the Republicans" except in this case, "We're not Microsoft". I don't jump on OSX because I hate Windows, because we have more than two choices.

Personally I think both operating systems are junk. OSX craps on me more often but Windows tends to crap harder. Sure I have to cold-cycle the mac every so often because nothing else works. OTOH OSX has never eaten my video driver and started bluescreening mysteriously, forcing me to boot in safe mode, remove the driver, reboot in safe mode, reinstall the driver, and reboot again.

Linux is therefore the best choice, I think, provided you are a nerd. After upgrading Ubuntu from Dapper to Edgy I lost SMP. Get SMP going, lose nvidia driver. I finally had to install the driver manually, which is not a big deal to me but might be to someone else and frankly it pissed me off, too.

I think soon I'm going to build a pissed off desktop machine for home use, and then I'll just buy a macbook (not pro) for everything else. At least it has a graphics card supported by open source drivers, and it can run any OS I care to run on it on top of that.

Re:the underlying argument (between the enemy line (1)

ocbwilg (259828) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684566)

(Why in the world would technology continue to have to fight the idiocy and unmanageability of logical drives these days -- I know, there's a way not to, but Microsoft in a competitive market would have had to fix this long ago.)

I know that you admitted that there's a way to not have to deal with logical drives, but it's much more than that. Microsoft fully fixed the logical drives mess back with Windows 2000. That's 7 years ago. The only reason that they are still around today is because (for some stupid reason) people like them. Seriously, they like them. We just finally managed to get enough management support behind us to get rid of them at my company, and now users are complaining that they're gone. There's no way in hell that I'll be bringing them back, but the point is that people like them, they miss them when they're gone, and they don't like adapting to the change.

So I think that it's extremely disingenuous to blame Microsoft for that particular problem, since they provided a much better alternative years ago. And it would be extremely difficult to fault them for not outright removing the support for logical drives when so many of their customers still want to use them. Not to mention a fair number of legacy applications that still want them.

Didn't we have a whole trial on this? (4, Interesting)

Dark Paladin (116525) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684306)

Windows Vista all the way. If Windows sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with it than Mac OS X? Last time I checked, Windows wasn't just a business operating system. Tons upon tons of people use it and like it.


I seem to recall a lawsuit regarding Microsoft's predatory practices by making it financially difficult for vendors to sell any operations system other than Dos and Windows - then there's the code stealing (Doublespace), the intential breaking (DR DOS), and other practices that, over time, have helped to lead to not just Microsoft's and Windows domination, but also the discouragement of any other operating systems from gaining hold.

I thought there was a whole court case about this, Microsoft being found guilty or something. But since there was no punishment, I must be wrong.

How did they get into such a position? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684584)

Your claim is that Microsoft could not have gained a monopoly if they didnt use predatory tactics when they were a monopoly?

Anyway, I use both Macs and PC .. A PC with Windows XP over 1 GB of RAM is just as good/resposive as a Mac (which btw, would cost the same or more). Most of the complaints about Windows come from users who download spyware and have cheap PCs. Users often are tricked into going through whatever hoops to install the spyware. It's plain silly to sit there and tell me that I am choosing Windows because they're a monopoly. It works just as well FOR ME. I dont have crashes. IE7 works very well. Visual Studio is awesome .. there's no client app I can think of that I can't develop in it. Windows is popular because people dont want to be forced to buy both the computer and the OS from the same company. They like to mix and match, choose their own components.

If the separate PC component vendors didnt exist you can bet that motherboards, graphics cards etc. would permanently suck.

Re:Didn't we have a whole trial on this? (1)

SetupWeasel (54062) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684658)

Windows might have died years ago if Apple had made an operating system for the PC. The fact is that no matter how awful you think Microsoft's business practices are, Apple is the company that demands that you own their hardware if you want to use their operating system. If Microsoft did that, they would be broken up in a week.

Can we please have this "news" post delted? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684326)

Seriously this is not "news for nerds". This is straight up TROLLING. There is no information here only opinion.

Vista Accomplished Its One And Only Needed Task (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684342)

Stop the security/virus fiasco that plagued Windows a few years ago. XP SP2 got a good way along that path, but Vista is pretty much there now having used it for the past few months. A couple years ago almost every single person I worked with or knew who ran Windows was dealing was repeated and very severe virus problems and almost every single one of them was starting to lean towards picking up a Mac in disgust. All that talk is pretty much over now. Yes there are a couple people I know who picked up a Mac after dumping Windows, but for most people I know XP SP2 and Vista work well and are reasonably secure.

OS X does have an elegance about it that Windows people do admire, but that is not enough to get them to outright dump Windows. So in that sense Vista accomplished exactly what it needed to do for Microsoft.

Fear and Loathing in OS Wars (3, Funny)

Erik Fish (106896) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684356)

Now, there are four states of being in the Apple, or Mac OS X, society: Cool, Groovy, Hip, and Square. The square is seldom if ever cool. He is not "with it," that is, he doesn't know "what's happening." But if he manages to figure it out, he moves up a notch to "hip."

And if he can bring himself to approve of what is happening, he becomes "groovy." After that, with much luck and perseverance, he can rise to the rank of "cool." A "cool guy"...

But... but... (1)

jhesse (138516) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684736)

Isn't it Hip To Be Square [wikipedia.org] ?

Dear Slashdot... (2, Funny)

j0nkatz (315168) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684376)

If you would like to cut down on the trolls then quit submitting shit for articles like this one.

PS - Mac rules! Vista drools!

Um, no? (2, Insightful)

ruiner13 (527499) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684378)

they don't care about the fact that they have to reset the permissions and turn on Appletalk every five minutes.
Ok, let's see a show of hands who actually uses Appletalk any more? Anyone? Yeah, didn't think so. I've had my G4 (the first AGP one) for a long time. Know how many times i've had to reset permissions? None. The only times I've heard people having to do that is when an OS update happens, which is what, 4 times a year? Compared to how many times I've had to reinstall windows because of virii, corruption of the registry, etc, it is nothing. FUD at its finest.

Re:Um, no? (2, Insightful)

Stewie241 (1035724) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684576)

If you're going to cry foul, then be fair in return... I'm glad to finally be almost rid of Windows (in favour of Linux), but to say that constant reinstall because of virii, corruption, etc. is necessary isn't exactly true... Had this computer for over a year and it still runs fine... no regular crashes, no virus problems, no spyware problems... Why do you have to reset permissions when an OS update happens? Permissions on what?

Market Share != Quality (3, Informative)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684388)

If Windows sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with it than Mac OS X?

Because when they get a computer it has windows on it. There first computer is usually really cheap so it has windows on it. When they need more all their software is for windows so they get a windows PC. Windows will always have more market share then OS X Because OS X Requires you to get a Mac. Even if 20 years ago Macs are like Macs now and PCs were like PCs then, and prices were the same. DOS Will still win because people felt more comfortable with choices.

"Reader debate" (3, Funny)

Etyenne (4915) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684394)

That's another way of saying "sanctionned flamewar", right ?

I guess there's a market for that kind of thing.

A bet (-1, Troll)

rbanffy (584143) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684398)

I could bet my ears most IPs are from the Redmond region.

Microsoft seems to be employing a gigantic astroturf team.

I never, ever, saw so much Windows-friendly stupidity. Have any one of the Windows fanboys ever used another OS for more that the 5 minutes required to learn one's way around? Most Windows fanboys never used anything else, so, for them, Windows is the best.

Do they expect Microsoft to send them expensive notebooks as a reward?

I used Vista. I was a beta tester and it sucked badly release after release up to the final one. The bug I filed upon pre-beta 1 was never fixed.

Popularity != quality (4, Insightful)

Scrameustache (459504) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684402)

If organic meals comprising all food groups, rich in fiber, vitamins and proteins are so much better, than why are more people eating at McDonald's?

Same deal.

It's easier to buy McD's than to cook for oneself? (1)

FatSean (18753) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684580)

Or did you mean that because there are McDonalds restaurants everywhere...people go in there to eat rather than go to a grocery store?

Hmmm..

Re:Popularity != quality (1)

jaysones (138378) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684668)

Exactly. If Britney Spears has more fans than anyone else, does that make her the best singer in the world? Not in my opinion.

Great arguments (4, Insightful)

melikamp (631205) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684412)

If Windows sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with it than Mac OS X?

If Hitler [wikipedia.org] sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with him than with Asoka [wikipedia.org] ?

So this means.. (1)

dan20164 (959806) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684414)

"Tons upon tons of people use it and like it." So this means that Rolling Rock is THE premium beer ?

Use *and* Like? (4, Insightful)

DreadSpoon (653424) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684418)

"Tons upon tons of people use it and like it."

The first part we are all aware of. The second part... on what basis did that come from? I can't think of a single person who "likes" Windows. They simply use Windows because they don't have a whole lot of choice: it's either all they know how to use, or the only OS that plays their games, or the only OS that runs on, etc.

You might even be able to convince me that people like Windows [i]more than[/i] alternatives, like OS X and Linux. I could easily see that. OS X has some really dumb design flaws and Linux is still a pain in the ass to use as soon as you want to run non-standard software (not even Debian packages *everything*, people). In a lot of ways, Windows is easier and it's quicker to get certain things done.

However, I still don't buy that there is a great number of people who "like Windows" entirely on its own merits. They might like it better than nothing, or better than alternatives, but that's isn't the same as liking Windows. It's like saying that I like having a broken arm because it's better than having no arm or having a frost-bitten arm.

Re:Use *and* Like? (1)

melikamp (631205) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684518)

Great point! The only version of Windows I ever liked was 95, and that was briefly. Whereas I instantly liked Linux (the first UNIX I've encountered), and I like it to this day. For me, it all comes down to the pleasure of studying it--something I cannot do with Windows. Later in my life I also liked SunOS, but more as a challenge to replace the entire userland with GNU.

Re:Use *and* Like? (2, Insightful)

Strudelkugel (594414) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684686)


The OS rants are really becoming pointless. Do I like Windows? Sure, it helps me do many things I need to do. Just like a fork at the dinner table. Do I like OSX? Sure, I like spoons, too. Is a spoon better than a fork? A socket wrench better than a crescent wrench? Depends on what you want to do. So I have an iMac and a Windows PC. Some things the are better on the PC, some are better on the Mac. Odd thing is, I've experienced iTunes crashing on the iMac, but never on the PC.

Re:Use *and* Like? (1)

planetmn (724378) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684774)

It depends on how you define "Like Windows". I don't think of myself as somebody who likes Windows, but I like what it allows me to do. I like that I have a large choice in hardware. You just don't have the selection for a Mac. Linux hardware support is getting very good, but it can still be a pain to get certain hardware (in my case WiFi adapters) working properly.

I like that there is a large choice of inexpensive computers available to run it. Again, these could run linux, but they can't run Mac. Two years ago I bought a $500 laptop. It's not a great laptop, but it's now the only computer in the house, since it does everything my wife and I need. You just don't have that option with the Mac.

I was very tempted to buy a Powerbook a couple of years back, so I took my wife to the Apple store to have her try out OSX. She hated it. It wasn't anything in particular, but it wasn't Windows so things were foreign to her. So in our case, why go with OSX unless it offers something Windows doesn't.

XP has been rock solid. I don't remember ever getting a BSOD or the system crashing since I've been using XP. So reliability isn't an issue. I haven't had a virus on it, though I do have a hardware firewall (which I would have regardless of OS).

So while I don't count myself as liking windows, I don't think I would like linux or OSX. The operating system is just there to allow me to use my computer. They perform this task in different ways, but as long as my wife and I can use the computer for what we need, we don't need to like the OS. I think the closest I will ever come is where I am with windows, liking what it enables me to do.

-dave

Newsflash...the OS doesn't matter (2, Insightful)

Overzeetop (214511) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684428)

Seriously, how many people are being "sold" a piece of software which is really only supposed to be the interface between your hardware and your applicaitons, and judging it based on a zillion other criteria?

I don't do any "work" in the OS. It doesn't make me money. It doesn't (shouldn't) add anything. It is - and I'm going to get pedantic here - an Operating System. Can we just get over the whole OS as an application thing? Okay, I suppose in the era of GUIs, it's a windows manager, too. We, the "consumers" have apparently been duped in to thinking that the system that runs the basic computer system should also get us coffee and a handy when we're in the mood.

I read part of the article, and it's talking about constency and feel, and pretty gui widgets. I'm less and less impressed with how efficient these things might make us, to the point that I think much of the OS is actually getting in the way of getting work done. Heck, it's almost as bad has having /. in term of productivity loss - sure it's fun, but when you get down to it, it's really just a waste of time.

Who knows, maybe I'm a slackware guy after all. Or maybe I'd do better with OS-X. But in reality, the programs I run happen to run on x86 architure and rely on Windows componenets, so there isn't much choice. I'd just like to get back to the basics. For a windowed environment, I guess that's NT3.5(1). Man, I just feel old today.

Visa: the new look, or was it? (1)

v4nten (1045792) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684434)

Why does vista look so much like OS X?

Battle of the half wits? (2, Insightful)

PingSpike (947548) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684450)

I haven't read the article...but I'm hoping that the pro microsoft camp has better individuals at its desposal then the one quoted in the topic summary. What was that? A little bit of fud mixed with an irrelevant point (is appletalk even used anymore? And doesn't vista now require you to click through a ton of permissions crap to do anything as well?) followed by the "Its good because its more popular" arguement? I mean, I don't like Microsoft much but there's plenty of valid advantages that windows have...but that guy just falls back on the old personal attacks and half truths.

Tons of people use it and like it? (3, Insightful)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684462)

Look, I use it - have had every version of Windows and DOS since the first one - except for WindowsME.

But like it? That's going way too far.

Put up with it - much more accurate description ...

That said, though, in the end the only reason I still have a WinXP machine is so I can play Sims 2 on it. Seriously.

Everything else I have works on Linux or my Mac Mini with OS X.

And looking at WinVista requirements - I was finally enjoying paying $500 for a high speed 11b/g laptop - I don't want to shell out another $2000 to buy a computer that should be a commodity like a TV that sells for $300 to $500, just so I can run what appears to be mostly graphics upgrades to look pretty that would be far cheaper on a Mac. So, given they've jacked the OS price for Win Vista to double, unless some killer app comes out - I'm taking my Open Office and my Opera and my Firefox and migrating off of Windows forever when they kill WinXP support.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this decision.

Flamewar! (0, Offtopic)

lpcustom (579886) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684466)

Flame flame flame flame....flame flame burn blame flame. In my opinion, flame MS flame flame flame OS X...flame blame burn. Furthermore, burn flame flame flame flame fire Linux. But BSD flame zealot fanboy flame flame flame. Occasionally I like to offtopic flame blah blah. I think that about sums it up..... I just saved myself 3 paragraphs of typing with the same result.

Irony (5, Insightful)

greysky (136732) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684478)

From the article:
I can't wait until the first Mac Virus hits... I want to see how cool Mac OS X is then.

Is it just me, or does anyone else see this statement as just a little ironic?

Silly argument (1)

Random BedHead Ed (602081) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684508)

If Windows sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with it than Mac OS X?

I get a kick out of the article's quoted example. To me, popularity has always been irrelevant, and instead the trustworthyness and utility of the OS renders its popularity meaningless. Again, this is only IMHO. But as an analogy, which is the better car: the 1995 Chevy Cavalier or a contemporary BMW? By this guy's argument, the Cavalier is superior because it is far more popular. And you know, from the standpoint of the software market and what decisions the market as a whole will likely make, Vista probably is "better" in that it will meet more people's needs. But I've always found this argument extremely simpleminded in any other context than market-speak. And let's face it: there are other contexts than the market. Sometimes it doesn't seem that way, because technical arguments about this subject almost always descend down the market/popularity track. Many people can't resist.

Anyway, that's only one problem I have with this debate. The other is the false dichotomy. Why aren't free desktops in the article? Are there any US citzens here who like neither the Democrats nor the Republicans? Or ice cream flavors that are neither chocolate nor vanilla? Or operating systems besides OS X and Windows?

Throbbing buttons? Apply a little Preparation-H... (1)

coastin (780654) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684530)

From the article;
In a similar example, I wasn't sure why Word 2007's "Office Menu" button was throbbing bright orange in a new blank document, but it really wanted my attention.

Do I really need throbbing buttons? Perhaps it is best not to turn on a Vista PC while suffering from a hangover.

I Used to Like Mac-Donald's (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684532)

Until I stopped eating it for about a year, and started consuming healthier foods. Now I can't even bear the smell or image of Mac-Donald's, much less the taste of it.

Where do they get these people? (0, Offtopic)

sokoban (142301) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684544)

Wow, a non-article written by non-authors.

If these are the most intelligent comments that Information Week could dig up, maybe they should have thought twice about publishing them in an article.

At the right place at the right time (4, Insightful)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684546)

Microsoft was at the right place at the right time originally, that is why its OS is so dominant these days. Upgrades are usually taken because they are the path of least resistance.

Saying it is better because of its marketshare is just a logical fallacy based on popularity. It is like debating religion and saying one is right or wrong based on its "marketshare."

For me, simply, Microsoft is the inferior OS to BSD, Linux Distros, and Mac OS X simply because it is a security nightmare in so many ways - and I have to spend my time working, not running antispyware, anti-adware, or fixing other things about the OS (registry). I also find Microsoft asks me to push the "OK" button too often for crap, or nags me about updates (every 5 minutes after I initially say "no") when I just want the OS to shut up and stay out of the way. That is my metric, some people have different metrics (games, certain apps) and that makes Microsoft suitable to them.

(BTW, saying that an OS has certain exclusive apps does not make that OS inherently superior as 3rd party apps, by definition, aren't inherent to the OS. It is a reality we all have to live with, but I think it is disingenuine to say that the OS is innately superior because of this, rather than simply acknowledging that it might be more suitable because of said apps.)

Alot of people have had herpes too (1, Offtopic)

Foofoobar (318279) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684592)

Doesn't mean that it's better than being healthy...

One Sided (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684604)

I own a Mac and a PC. The mac is better. If you want to know why and you don't want to take my word for it, then buy one.

Who loves Windows? (3, Interesting)

jc42 (318812) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684608)

Tons upon tons of people use [Windows] and like it.

Huh? In my experience, almost all Windows users hate it. They use it because they have no idea that there's a choice. They didn't buy "windows", they bought "a computer", and that mysterious thing called "Windows" came with it. From the name, they understand that "Windows" is the thing that draws the windows on the screen. All computers do that, so they all have "Windows", right? Even those who have heard of Apple tend to think that Macs run Windows, because you can look at the screen and see the windows.

An important reason for all this is that Microsoft has an advertising budget larger than the budgets of all their competitors combined. This simple situation is all you need to understand MS's market dominance. (Though their ability to lock out competitors via their contracts with retailers also helps.)

Luckily no .net 3.0 benchmarks... (1)

ZOMFF (1011277) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684616)

... because that would be in direct violation of Microsoft's Vista EULA.

9. MICROSOFT .NET BENCHMARK TESTING. The software includes one or more components of the .NET Framework 3.0 (".NET Components"). You may conduct internal benchmark testing of those components. You may disclose the results of any benchmark test of those components, provided that you comply with the conditions set forth at http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=66406 [microsoft.com] . Notwithstanding any other agreement you may have with Microsoft, if you disclose such benchmark test results, Microsoft shall have the right to disclose the results of benchmark tests it conducts of your products that compete with the applicable .NET Component, provided it complies with the same conditions set forth at http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=66406 [microsoft.com] .

*sigh* (2, Interesting)

Toreo asesino (951231) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684638)

Is anyone else here thinking they don't give a shit too?

I mean, this whole thing pretty much boils down to "which one do you prefer?" - how scientific is that?!

Give me a real debate ffs; better default security, faster networking, better f/s, better app-support, better memory management....anything! Anything but "which one's better?"!

Christ, it's Friday night, everyone's going out and I'm on slashdot. Good evening everyone, the beers are calling.

REMATCH? (1)

Enrique1218 (603187) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684648)

Is that what we are calling duplicate articles nowadays? I guess next week's article is New Horizons-Jupiter: The Rematch:)

Oblig. (1)

Schraegstrichpunkt (931443) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684650)

Obligatory YouTube video [youtube.com] (possibly NSFW if your co-workers can't handle foul language).

If Nobel Laureates are so smart ... (3, Funny)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684680)

... how come so many more people, billions infact, are non Nobel Laureates, eh?

Being a Win/Mac/Linux user (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17684698)

I can tell you that they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. I find myself using my Mac far more often than Windows or Linux simply because all I ever do is surf the web, read email, and admin my Linux machine remotely. It's simply a no-hassle operating system that seems to 'just work'. Also, I have been doing a lot of scripting lately and I do a lot of prototyping using Ruby, Perl and PHP on that platform and when I'm happy with the prototypes I simply move them to my Linux machine.

Windows strength is in the numbers, ton of software is available and the OS is designed well enough to get your job done effectively. The Windows IDEs are pretty nice if you are into that kind of thing and has tons of games, which I find myself playing a lot less of now that I have my Xbox 360. Maintaining a Windows machine is not the headache that some people make it out to be (it's much less of a headache than Linux where I can spend too many hours working on stupid configuration problems that could be done in minutes on a Windows or seconds on an OS X machine).

Linux is nice for really hard core stuff. Running databases, web servers, and doing development work, especially scripting. It offers a ton of features and services that are either not found on the other platforms or if they are, you gotta pay big $$. The downside is that it is kind of nightmare for configuration. It seems like a lot of core services change frequently and you gotta keep on top of how to use and/or configure them (of course these things are also is dependent on the distro). Also, the GUI's really need some work. They are much better looking than they were 5 years ago, but the 'feel', consistency, and usability aspects are still not quite there, at least compared to Windows and OS X. However, that being said, Linux is still my 2nd platform of choice...

I thought we outgrew... (2, Insightful)

Quiet_Desperation (858215) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684712)

...the popularity = quality correlation fallacy?

500 million people a year catch malaria. Wow! Sounds like the thing to do!

FUD on AppleTalk (1)

BoRegardless (721219) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684714)

Boy is that reviewer up to date!

my experience (1)

TheSHAD0W (258774) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684726)

Having recently purchased a Mac (Mini), comparing OSX to XP, I have to opine that OSX has a ways yet to go. It "feels" immature, lacking a few seemingly minor features that subjectively make a big difference to me.

My biggest peeve is the display. OSX uses a font-smoothing technology that to me makes the text look fuzzy. I've argued with people on IRC channels over it, and I must admit that it's technically superior and produces a better match with what's eventually going to come out of the printer, but the fact is if I'm reading text off the monitor 8-12 hours per day I want it to be less fuzzy, accurate or not.

Other peeves? Integrating energy saving w/ the screen saver, for instance; if I've configured the Finder to disable the screen saver when I stick the mouse in one corner of the screen, I don't want the system to turn off the monitor or go into sleep mode, either. Another minor screen saver peeve is that once it trips, no matter how quickly I get back to the machine, I have to unlock it with my password. XP gives me a few seconds before locking up the machine.

Something else I don't like is the inability to easily see how many windows are open for each app. Yes, I know about the F9/F10/F11 tricks, but it'd be nice to have a few ticks next to the icon for running apps rather than a single tick showing it's running.

Further, I know Apple has released the Darwin OS as open-source while maintaining OSX separately. I think it'd be better if Apple opened the kernel for OSX and merged with with Darwin, and kept their proprietary fun and games confined to Aqua. It'd mean better hardware flexibility (remember the Nvidia driver bug [slashdot.org] ?).

marketing (1)

TwinGears (615184) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684740)

"If Windows sucks soooo much, how come more people are familiar with it than Mac OS X? Last time I checked, Windows wasn't just a business operating system. Tons upon tons of people use it and like it."

You sure sound like a fool that actually bought win95 in 96, and actually thought it really was great. Did you miss out on owning an Amiga or Apple as a kid or some thing? Your just plain foolish if you can not see past marketing, and buying into the world worst computer effort of all time. After all you said it "familiar", and that does not say much when I look out my window and see. Far to many people do not ask enough questions and just blindly except the stupid things others come up with, M$ being Queen of BS for a long time.

I am sorry, I bought into such easy flame bait, but anyone with a brain knows what sucks and what doesn't. Like does this guy even own a computer?

Windows... (1)

JimXugle (921609) | more than 7 years ago | (#17684756)

Windows: Just another piece of shovelware.
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