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Gamers React to Vista Launch

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the it-stinks dept.

PC Games (Games) 171

As cranky as IT folks are about having to roll out new Vista installs, support them, update them, etc, gamers are matching them in irritation. Ars Technica recommends you dual-boot XP and Vista if you want to keep gaming on your PC. Voodoo Extreme explores Vista's crappy audio setup, while Computer and VideoGames reports that some small developers think Vista will ruin PC gaming (a comment we've heard before). C&VG does have a slightly more hopeful article up too, talking about the future of Vista gaming and what the new OS could mean for games ... once all the kinks are worked out.

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171 comments

My Reaction is... (2, Insightful)

mandelbr0t (1015855) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819012)

/me yawns wide enough to drive a truck through.

What's that? Vista? Oh well, SWG and WoW still run on Linux.
 
/me goes back to sleep.

Re:My Reaction is... (4, Funny)

XaXXon (202882) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819294)

If you're playing WoW (and SWG for whatever reason), then we all know you have no time for sleeping.

Level 70 yet?

Re:My Reaction is... (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819302)

SWG and WoW still run on Linux

Man, I missed that news! I know WoW runs on my son's intel-based Mac Mini too.

Hope they get a Wii version soon, cause I'm not shelling out $2000 for a fresh laptop just to play games. My last one cost me $500 with WinXP bundled.

Re:My Reaction is... (1)

CasperIV (1013029) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819852)

That really would be some terrible graphics if someone stuck WOW on a Wii..... Makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

Re:My Reaction is... (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820120)

Why? WoW on a Wii would be more fun, because you could actually cast spells or slash with a sword by actually doing it. Instead of hunting around for silly keys to click - and you'd still have a ribbon bar on the bottom.

My point is Vista is just barely capable of doing what my 2006 Mac Mini already does. And it cost half as much to buy, monitor and mouse included. Same goes for Linux laptop or using a Wii - it's just a heck of a lot cheaper. Why pay $200 for an OS when you don't need to?

Re:My Reaction is... (3, Insightful)

MeanderingMind (884641) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820256)

Actually, hunting around to find keys/buttons is something games like WoW are designed to minimize.

The very nature of the game is such that as you progress with your character the user-interface and the placement of all the icons/key-bindings evolves with you. Anyone else who sits down in front of Yendolf the Finger-Waggler will be baffled at the setup, and will hunt around for buttons. However, assuming you play good ol' Yenny the majority of the time, you'll pretty instinctually find what you're looking for.

It may look like a disorganized mess, but at least it's one that your wife won't organize for you when you aren't looking.

Re:My Reaction is... or Economics 200 (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820992)

Well, I know it's intuitive, my 15 yo son just paid $1.99 for a two-week trial version for his Mac. But, you'd get more exercise, and avoid Cartman's fate if you actually could use Wii gestures to attack.

But still, there really are very few games that we need to have WinVista for anymore. Most exist on the Wii, 360, PS3 (hah), MacOS, BSD, and some on Linux.

So, when faced with the question - do I spend $2000 just to buy a new WinVista Premium laptop - or spend $2000 on 40 new games for my Wii and my Mac Mini, the answer is pretty darned simple, and it means there's no real need to "upgrade" to WinVista when it means tossing a perfectly good machine away.

Re:My Reaction is... or Economics 200 (3, Funny)

DrEldarion (114072) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821650)

Well, I know it's intuitive, my 15 yo son just paid $1.99 for a two-week trial version for his Mac. But, you'd get more exercise, and avoid Cartman's fate if you actually could use Wii gestures to attack.

Given the amount of time that many people spend playing WoW, you'd be able to tell which ones were the Wii players by their ONE MASSIVE ARM.

Re:My Reaction is... or Economics 200 (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821746)

Hmm. But if you have both a Wiimote and a Nunchuk, then you probably would only have one massive arm if you hotkeyed all your weapons and spells to the one arm.

Regardless, if we have WoW on the Wii, and can play most WinVista games on the Mac, the Wii, the 360, and the PS3, then we have little need to bother with shelling out $2000 for a brand new PC or laptop when we can buy something for half that much or less which works just as well.

Economics is a cruel mistress - she charges by the hour.

Re:My Reaction is... (1)

twistedsymphony (956982) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820428)

WoW on a Wii would be more fun, because you could actually cast spells or slash with a sword by actually doing it. Instead of hunting around for silly keys to click - and you'd still have a ribbon bar on the bottom.
Good luck reading any text... or navigating any kind of menus. 720x480 isn't exactly the best resolution for PC ports, and that's assuming you have an HDTV/EDTV... else you're watching more like 640x240. Go use the webbrowser and once the cool factor of a browser on a console wears off you'll realize that scrolling horizontally on even the most scarce websites sucks.

As cool as really slashing your sword around might seem it gets repetitive and aggravation inducing after a while (I own one, I almost through my Red Steel disc through a wall after about 3 hours of the game not properly recognizing my inputs). Not exactly something I'd sign up to play hours and hours and hours of daily like most WoW players.

Honestly you'd be better off with it on the 360 or PS3... hard drive space for expansions, keyboard support for text entry, and the resolution support to drive either a nice PC monitor or HDTV all the way up to 1920x1080. You might not be hacking and slashing but your eyes and arms will thank you greatly.

Re:My Reaction is... screen res not important (2, Informative)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821052)

Actually, Red Steel is one of the worst games on the Wii. Most are 4 or 5 star out of 5 games, like Rayman's Raving Rabbids, Zelda, Trauma Center, etc. Don't judge a console by it's worst title. Just as we shouldn't judge the PS3 by the only good non-cross-platform game for it, Resistance: Fall of Man (the only good one so far).

Now, I admit the 360 is coming out with a bunch of games, but for some reason most of the good games are Japan-region-encoded. Which means not gonna happen.

However, this proves the point that WinVista is not needed for modern gamers - we have many decent platforms to play them on, ranging from Wii to PS3 to 360 to Mac to Linux/BSD.

Re:My Reaction is... screen res not important (1)

twistedsymphony (956982) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821826)

I used Red Steel as an example because it has sword fighting in it, and aside from Zelda it's AFAIK the only game with sword fighting. Zelda's sword fighting isn't much better it might register more reliably but basically you just wiggle the remote instead of pushing a button, which IMO doesn't really add much "fun" to the game. At least in Red Steel the on screen actions map more realistically to your movements (albeit poorly). If you'd rather use a "good" title go putt or box in Wii sports... neither are much better.

Re:My Reaction is... (1)

CarnivoreMan (827905) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820240)

The resolution would be crappy, but the Wii could handle the game easily enough. WoW looks so nice because the artists at Blizzard are amazing at taking proper advantage of the tech limitations they are given to work with.... technical limitations usually set in place to allow even those with lower end systems to play... Unlike EQ games where the art sucks even with hefty system requirements. The Wii of course is nowhere near the raw poly pumping potential of the PS3's potent processing power, but it's still no pile of steaming cow crap.

Re:My Reaction is... (1)

$RANDOMLUSER (804576) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819346)

And what are you going to do when the next time you want to upgrade your video card, and all you can buy is HDMI or UDI?

You're missing the point: Vista is stealing the hardware vendors from us. Think about the frog in the pot of hot water.

Re:My Reaction is... (1)

MSFanBoi2 (930319) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819354)

Guess what, they both work fine under Windows Vista as well...

Re:My Reaction is... (1)

Mattsson (105422) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821238)

I think he meant "There is no need to shell out $??? for a vista-license or $????(?) for a new computer with vista bundled when stuff works(tm)"

Re:My Reaction is... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17819736)

Uh, you know how I know you're gay?

It's because you play WoW. Moreover you play WoW on Linux.

Re:My Reaction is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17819894)

What's that? My elderly grandparents are being held hostage and my kids haven't eaten in 2 days? Oh well, SWG and WoW still run on Linux. /me goes back to playing.

There.. fixed that for you.

Xbox? (2, Interesting)

bcmm (768152) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819046)

Maybe now that Microsoft has a console, we are supposed to stop gaming on PCs?

Existing/in development Windows games are most easily ported to the Xbox, provided they use DirectX (which most do), so Microsoft doesn't really have much to lose if developers start to write fewer games for Windows.

Re:Xbox? (2, Interesting)

sqlrob (173498) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819234)

It has *nothing* to lose.

You don't have to pay MS royalties for a Windows game. You do for a 360 game. Which do you think MS prefers would be published?

Re:Xbox? (4, Interesting)

Sancho (17056) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820150)

Exactly.

Windows will have a place in the business world for some time, and certainly on the desktop in commodity PCs. Microsoft is in no danger of losing what is arguably their flagship product (though some would argue that Office is their bread-and-butter).

Now they want market dominance in consoles. With PCs as gaming systems, they are competing with themselves for dominance (Xbox vs PC), and they flat out don't get any royalties for games sold on the PC. They know that they have dominance on the PC even without gaming, so the easiest way to gain console dominance is to try to move people off of the PC and onto the Xbox.

Now I don't think they'd blatantly sabotage gaming on Windows--certainly, they're using gaming as leverage for Vista upgrades via DirectX 10. But they probably won't work to maintain it as a viable platform for that much longer. DirectX 10 represents the start of a merger between the SDKs for Xbox and PC. I suspect that soon, we'll see the SDK for the Xbox start to become more advanced than the PC version. Eventually, the main optimizations and improvements will go to the XBox.

Sneaky people, if this is their strategy, but effective. The PS3 is looking more and more like it's going to flop, and the Wii targets a completely different market (though it's catching up to the 360 in sales, regardless, and despite being released a year later). They've got a virtually clear path to hardcore console gaming dominance.

Re:Xbox? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17819236)

I dissagree, the only reasion I have windows at home is to play games.
-James

Re:Xbox? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17819332)

But then why make DX10 Vista only?

Re:Xbox? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17819470)

But then why make DX10 Vista only?

If they didn't limit some of the new functionality to Vista, why would users move off of 2000/XP? Limiting the release of particular features can be a way to force users of your older products to your newer products.

Jim

Re:Xbox? (1)

sumdumass (711423) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819834)

Exactly, If it wasn't for DX10 or whatever, the argument to switch would sound an awful lot like the arguments to use linux. They would lose big on this. And the old tactic of claiming more powerful and secure or easier to use then the last more powerful and secure or easiest to use operating system they had Is too much like the linux argument too.

In other words, most people don't have a reason to change operating systems. When you give them a reason, It better not be one a competitor can jump on.

Re:Xbox? (4, Informative)

StikyPad (445176) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819980)

now that Microsoft has a console, we are supposed to stop gaming on PCs?

Nope. Apparently you haven't heard about Microsoft's efforts [gamesforwindows.com] to revitalize PC gaming. Well, now you have.

Re:Xbox? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17821286)

Microsoft clearly does have something to lose from fewer Windows games. I know a lot of people - including myself - that only stick to Windows for games.

sound information (2, Interesting)

archen (447353) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819066)

One of the articles says that hardware acceleration is no longer available in Vista, but doesn't say why (aside from the fact that MS didn't include it in their sound layer rewrite). Is this mainly a DRM thing?

Might be a bit ironic if these sound cards target MS operating systems only to have Linux (and Mac?) being the only ones that support the hardware acceleration.

Re:sound information (1)

KermodeBear (738243) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819228)

It seems to have something to do with Vista's lack of support for EAX [google.com] in sound cards. I will not claim to be a sound expert (on board audio is good enough for me), but it seems to be a big problem for some people.

Re:sound information (3, Interesting)

KermodeBear (738243) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819278)

It appears that Creative is writing a driver that will intercept DirectSound calls [bit-tech.net] and translate them into OpenAL calls, which Vista WILL support.

Re:sound information (1)

sumdumass (711423) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819896)

I though OpenAL and OpenGL was supposed to be emulated in directX now.

If that is true, it will be interesting to see how well this approach works. If it doesn't, it might be interesting to see if the same approach could be used to get DX10 only hardware to work with other OSes.

Re:sound information (3, Informative)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819290)

One of the articles says that hardware acceleration is no longer available in Vista, but doesn't say why (aside from the fact that MS didn't include it in their sound layer rewrite). Is this mainly a DRM thing?

Actually, MS pulled the API in vista and replaced it with one that did not run in kernel space, which is a good thing in general. The problem is they did not provide properly for backwards compatibility so games that used that API sound like crap. Other games that used OpenAL, still sound fine and at least one card manufacturer is providing a translation layer from the old API to OpenAL (sort of like WINE and DirectX). Some of the games that use the old, MS specific API are surprising. World of Warcraft, for example. I mean they had to write it for OpenAL to get the Mac and Linux versions working and they released the Mac version at the same time as the Windows version. Is support for OpenAL that poor on Windows? guess they implemented DirectX as well as OpenGL too. Is their toolset just built to do both anyway or what?

Re:sound information (3, Informative)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820810)

World of Warcraft, for example. I mean they had to write it for OpenAL to get the Mac and Linux versions working and they released the Mac version at the same time as the Windows version.

Blizzard hasn't done jack for Linux, at least as far as development goes. They have worked with Transgaming to help Transgaming fix some issues with Cedega, and to restore accounts of Linux users that were erroneously flagged as bot-users. There is no "linux version" of the game, though. Cedega runs the Windows version of wow, and uses whatever audio driver the windows version uses.

They did implement both directX and OpenGL, and both can be used under Windows, so maybe it similarly has an OpenAL path on Windows.

Re:sound information (2, Informative)

Ksempac (934247) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819384)

M$ completely changed the way sound is processed on Vista. On Vista, the default system is the shared mode. Every sound of the system will be processed by a single software layer. This allows developers to play sounds regardless of the underlying hardware. However, this also prevents DirectSound and DirectSound3D from accessing the hardware. It also remove EAX.

There is a solution to that : the exclusive mode. Sound cards makers can create a driver, which will get total control of the sound system. This would allows them to make EAX works again, but right now, Creative (which we can say is the biggest sound card maker for gamers) is lazy and released drivers without support for EAX,Dolby Digital,DTS,6.1 sound...(btw they also said most of their webcam wont get drivers for Vista)

So it is more of a "lazy sound card maker" problem than a Vista problem (NVidia and ATI did make drivers for their card didn t they ?)

Re:sound information (2, Informative)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819622)

So it is more of a "lazy sound card maker" problem than a Vista problem (NVidia and ATI did make drivers for their card didn t they ?)

From what I understand the problem is not the cards don't support Vista's new sound APIs, it's that current games don't use them and the way MS has the software work-around function defaults to not detecting hardware. From the article Creative is the only one with a working solution, using a layer to translate to OpenAL. Audigy and Soundblaster cards simply play a lot of games with really crappy sound. Nvidia has always relied upon the OpenAL API and thus has no work to do. I don't know about ATI.

Future games will probably use Windows new APIs to do the audio work in software and work fine, or use hardware support for the cards via OpenAL, but the a large portion of the current games who used the MS proprietary sound APIs, instead of the open standard OpenAL, will have spotty sound support on many cards.

A gamer's reaction... (5, Insightful)

Endo13 (1000782) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819084)

I'm a gamer. In fact, the only reason I still use Windows at all is for gaming. And yes, I play all kinds of games, from little java games in a web-browser to WoW, HalfLife2, Medieval 2:TW, etc. etc.

And my reaction is that Vista is going to have to offer a whole lot more than DirectX10 to get me to switch. There's far far too many items on the minus side, and only one on the plus (for my purposes, at any rate). At this point, I've decided that unless the landscape has drastically changed by the time games start requiring DX10, I'll just be living without those games.

Some positive side effects (4, Insightful)

Ruprecht the Monkeyb (680597) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819190)

It breaks WildTangent stuff? Cool. There's a good reason to upgrade to Vista now.

There might be some other positive aspects. For one, I noticed last night a demo wouldn't install on my PC running Vista x64, because it's crappy copy-protection (and what morons put copy protection in a freakin demo?) couldn't install it's drivers because they were unsigned. Maybe at the least, if we're going to have to live with obnoxious copy protection in games, the developers of the crap will have to be a little more responsible and careful before just crudding up someone's PC.

Re:Some positive side effects (2, Informative)

TheMidnight (1055796) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819328)

Unfortunately it doesn't break WildTangent. I had to uninstall the stuff off my new Vista HP machine.

Re:Some positive side effects (1)

Barny (103770) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820008)

Usually they leave the copy protection on demo software because leaving it out gives crackers the chance to see what the core game binary should look like without the kludg and makes it a lot easier for them to "fix" it :)

Re:Some positive side effects (1)

Endo13 (1000782) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820582)

As I understand it, the main gripe of developers such as Wild Tangent and Pop Cap is that the parental controls allows you to set windows to ignore any game that does not have an ESRB rating. (By default, this setting is NOT turned on.) Since most of these types of games are small, with minimal time and money spent and developing, the cost of obtaining that ESRB rating is prohibitively expensive, coming in at about two to three thousand dollars.

So honestly, though I have little love for Vista at this point, I would have to say that most of their arguments are FUD.

Re:Some positive side effects (1)

kalirion (728907) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820656)

It breaks WildTangent stuff? Cool. There's a good reason to upgrade to Vista now.

If you'd purchase and install an entire OS rather than the free Spybot, sure ;)

Not that bad... (2, Interesting)

aikouka (932902) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819194)

I already use Vista and I still game. I have absolutely no issues, albeit everything's still a little bit slower at the moment (nVidia never had mature G80 drivers for XP, why would I expect mature Vista drivers ;)). For me, Vista isn't just about my gaming experience, I want my entire PC experience to improve and I think Vista does that well. I could easily throw my old hard drive back in (with the XP partition still available) and go back, but I don't want to. Vista may have its oddities (UAC stopping programs from saving their settings, etc), but overall I'm satisfied.

Do I think people should upgrade? Maybe, if they really want to. If someone's building a new gaming rig, I'd say to just upgrade now and get it over with. Unfortunately, I planned my new rig a couple months ago when Vista was coming out. Then it was delayed and I ended up having to purchase a copy of Windows XP to put on it. So I now wasted $120 on Windows XP that I don't even use anymore. Why would anyone want to do that (keep your piracy comments to yourself)?

Re:Not that bad... (1)

SScorpio (595836) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819740)

How long ago did you purchase your copy of XP? There is a Technology Guarantee which will get you a free copy of Vista for $10 s/h if you bought a retail full or upgrade. If you purchased OEM you should have received an upgrade coupon for the same promotion. If you're not eligible for either option, then I guess you're screwed just like if you purchased a Mac just before price drops and new products.

http://www.microsoft.com/athome/techguarantee/worl dwide.mspx [microsoft.com]

Re:Not that bad... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17820086)

[rant]

Whoever modded this guy troll (and probably this post, too) is obviously an anti-MS fanboi with absolutely no insight. Grow up, people, and do the right thing instead of screwing off. Read the damn moderation instructions.

[/rant]

Re:Not that bad... (1)

LifesABeach (234436) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820220)

Maybe you could make a 4 column list of the Functionality, 'XP, 'Vista, and Ubuntu. List all functionalities in column one. If XP does it, then put a check under the XP column, same for Vista, and Ubuntu. What will be interesting is if as an end user, there is any difference between 'XP and 'Vista. Also, when comparing shells, the OS with the greatest shell handling will be informative. Another area will be that the keyboard can do what the mouse does. Comparing window managers will not be any less complex, but actually being able to point to a functionality list and saying, "This is better because..." would be priceless.

"Slowly, one by one, the Penguins steal my sanity." - Unknown

Dude! You're getting a Mac, Linux, BSD or Wii! (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819246)

Because I can't see shelling out a fresh $2000 just for a brand new laptop with fancy windowing that any MacOS can handle with existing graphics cards or that wouldn't be a good reason to just not bother and switch to a Linux or BSD laptop instead.

Besides, if a game won't run on my Wii or my son's Mac Mini (intel), it's not worth getting.

And that includes Spore, which I've been wanting for more than a year now.

Re:Dude! You're getting a Mac, Linux, BSD or Wii! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17819392)

Get back to the kitchen and make me a pie.

Gaming Performance on Vista (3, Informative)

Vigile (99919) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819258)

Just thought I drop a link to this article that actually looks at current gaming performance on Vista for both NVIDIA and ATI:

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?type=expert&aid=3 54&pid=2 [pcper.com]

Re:Gaming Performance on Vista (0, Troll)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819426)

Just thought I drop a link to this article that actually looks at current gaming performance on Vista for both NVIDIA and ATI:

I swear a script writes articles like the one you link to. I mean they show pages and pages of how many frames per second you get, but never once mention that the sound is degraded to complete crap for half the games they are evaluating? Did they even have the sound on? Did they even spend five minutes playing each game in person to see if they still worked properly?

Re:Gaming Performance on Vista (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17820506)

That would mean reduced efficiency...

Re:Gaming Performance on Vista (1)

Vigile (99919) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820826)

Sounds was just fine for me in these games...though only stereo was tested. Where is other wise reported?

Re:Gaming Performance on Vista (1)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820956)

Sounds was just fine for me in these games...though only stereo was tested. Where is other wise reported?

Sigh, did you RTFA? It specifically mentions Halflife 2, and Call of Duty 2 as games that revert to remedial sound support for a number of sound cards.

Lack of hardware sound (4, Informative)

Frenchy_2001 (659163) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819284)

Voodoo extreme has nothing to do with this article. They are only pointing to it.
The real article is at IGN:
http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/759/759538p1.html [ign.com]

Please, skip the redirections and ad views...

And I must say that this decision (no hardwrae acceleration) will badly hurt Creative Labs. Maybe, just maybe, this screw up will restart some competition in the sound card market?

Why wouldn't you dual boot? (2, Insightful)

Wicko (977078) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819288)

Assuming you have the HD space, why would you install a new OS that you have never tested before, and not keep your old, working one? Especially with all the rumours revolving around Vista, its just common sense.

Re:Why wouldn't you dual boot? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17819604)

Your old, working OS will not work for long because Microsoft will soon stop releasing security patches for it.

Re:Why wouldn't you dual boot? (1)

Lord_Ultimate (1049752) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819778)

A new OS being released isn't a good reason to upgrade as long as your current one works. I still have a Win 95 machine that I use for old games, mostly Serf City and Dune 2. And I don't worry about security because it resides on a network that isn't on the internet.

Re:Why wouldn't you dual boot? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17820558)

You've heard of DOSBox [sourceforge.net], haven't you?

Re:Why wouldn't you dual boot? (1)

jasen666 (88727) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820224)

You do know, XP will not automatically shut down if you start missing patch Tuesdays. I keep my windows update disabled permanently. None of mine have any problems.

Re:Why wouldn't you dual boot? (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821112)

If my "soon" you mean "a few years from now", I guess....

Next on Slashdot: (4, Funny)

Rob T Firefly (844560) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819380)

Bankers react to Vista Launch
Claims Adjusters react to Vista Launch
Baristas react to Vista Launch
Southpaws react to Vista Launch
Episcopalians react to Vista Launch
Underwater Basket-Weavers react to Vista Launch
Pizzeria Owners react to Vista Launch
Pre-Op Groin Shavers react to Vista Launch
etc.

Re:Next on Slashdot: (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17819724)

I am a Pre-Op Groin Shaver and I like Vista you insensitive clod. The Aero view is much nicer than my work view.

Mij

Not so very funny ... (1)

Qbertino (265505) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820266)

You forget that Games and Gamers are what keep the Windows Monopoly going for the larger part. So, no, 'Baristas react to Vista Launch' is not a headline, whereas 'Gamers react to Vista' is.

No SLI for GeForce 6, 7, or 8 cards until "later" (1)

willith (218835) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819442)

The most unpleasant surprise so far has been this snippet from NVidia's Forceware 100.54 driver release:

* DirectX 9 and OpenGL NVIDIA SLI support for GeForce 6 and 7 series GPUs and DirectX 10 NVIDIA SLI support for GeForce 8800 GPUs will be available in a future driver

No SLI support at launch. I'm a little ticked that I've spent the last month settling in to using Vista at home (legally, via an MSDN subscription), and now that the operating system has launched, my second 7900GT will continue to be nothing more than a case-warmer, until some point in the unspecified "future". I could go back to XP, but it's a pain in the ass to reinstall everything and get re-settled again.

Re:No SLI for GeForce 6, 7, or 8 cards until "late (1)

Gr8Apes (679165) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819660)

That's what partitions are for. Partition Magic is particularly helpful here in resizing and copying partitions, and best of all it's not really a Symantec product, although they own it now.

Re:No SLI for GeForce 6, 7, or 8 cards until "late (1)

pedershk (301556) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820894)

Umm.. Maybe you should read those release notes again. The driver with SLI support will be released TOMORROW.

And btw, Nvidia's driver for 8800 cards on Vista works perfectly. I use Vista as a gaming platform, and I'm not seeing ANY of the problems portrayed in the article. Maybe Realtek actually has good drivers.

Re:No SLI for GeForce 6, 7, or 8 cards until "late (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821156)

I'm not sure why you're surprised. Early adoption in Windows OS releases is always a recipe for headaches.

Blah blah (1)

mobby_6kl (668092) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819454)

The audio rewrite allows for example per application sound level control so it's not "just because", although I guess the removal of HAL isn't such a good idea. Anyway, Creative has the ALchemy [creativelabs.com] project which translates the old DirectSound instructions into OpenAL, and thus allows some old games to use EAX. IMO, EAX in old games isn't such a huge deal, and all the new ones will work fine.

The main problem with Vista and gaming are the horrible video drivers, or at least NVIDIA drivers. Not only they are slow, but they also don't allow overclocking (very useful for a 6600 which can run above 6600GT speeds), but even some basic settings seem to make no difference.

Re:Blah blah (1)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820040)

The audio rewrite allows for example per application sound level control so it's not "just because", although I guess the removal of HAL isn't such a good idea.

While pulling the code out of the kernel sounds like a good thing for stability, why would you need to deprecate the API in order to get per-application sound level control? Doesn't XP support this already?

Anyway, Creative has the ALchemy project which translates the old DirectSound instructions into OpenAL, and thus allows some old games to use EAX. IMO, EAX in old games isn't such a huge deal, and all the new ones will work fine.

Yes, but what about other sound card vendors that supported DirectSound? They will have poor sound performance for a good portion of existing games. Hopefully, developers will have learned their lesson and will just target OpenAL to start with.

Vista in just 2 URL's (4, Interesting)

Idaho (12907) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819478)

A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection [auckland.ac.nz] - and yes, an increased cost of video cards is very much relevant to me as a gamer - as is bad sound support, such as lack of EAX.

The completely spin-doctored reaction by Microsoft [windowsvistablog.com] didn't help much. Be sure to read the comments on that one..they're basically getting slaughtered on their own weblog.

Just a highlight I'll quote here:

Question: Will the Windows Vista content protection board robustness recommendations increase the cost of graphics cards?

Answer by MS: evades the question, but suggests the answer is no.
Answers from an ATI presentation:

"These costs are passed on to the consumer"

"This cost is passed on to all consumers"

"This cost is passed on to purchasers of multimedia PC's"

"Costs are passed on to consumers"

"Costs are passed on to consumers, especially early adopters"
Says it all for me, really.

WildTangent talking about ruining gaming? (2, Insightful)

DDLKermit007 (911046) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819532)

As in the spyware company WildTangent that gets packaged with a number of apps including AIM? Wish a CREDIBLE developer would have said that, and not them, being from the bottom of the barrel.

Whoa, A collection of FUD articles... (2, Insightful)

Utopia (149375) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819734)

...in one single post. my head is spinning.

First, I find it extremely disturbing that Taligent wants to automatically install their stuff without consent from users.

Second, Making DirectAudio flow through CPU is not such a bad move. Hardware based audio made a lot of sense in the old days when the genereal processors had low performance compared to dedicated audio processors. Modern processors are more than capable for providing great audio at a tiny fraction of available CPU cycles. Games now advertise hardware audio for marketting reasons. Nothing stops you from generating EAX type effects using current APIs available in the system.
Moreover Creative has been bypassing the OS audio layers completely using OpenAL for quite sometime and they have been actively prompting it.
Once Creative creates the proper drivers for Vista people will get back their EAX support.

Re:Whoa, A collection of FUD articles... (3, Insightful)

Mephistophocles (930357) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820036)

As an audio engineer, I'm not convinced that software-based sound is such a great idea. It might work for gamers, but I'm not convinced that it's going to meet the needs of small-time engineers and higher-end home studios who rely on powerful hardware-based sound cards. I also think this trend may exclude PC's from the professional audio world (though considering the fact that Apple already holds the vast majority of that market, that's a small loss).

Either way, the impact of this trend on small-time and independent project/home studios will be interesting. I don't think anyone from the project-studio world is going to be touching Vista for a long time (if ever).

Re:Whoa, A collection of FUD articles... (1)

oggiejnr (999258) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821338)

If you are an audio engineer it is highly likely that you are not using the Windows audio stack to begin. With the exception of SONAR, nearly every other product uses ASIo or some other method so the changes in Vista won't affect it.

Re:Whoa, A collection of FUD articles... (1)

NuShrike (561140) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821420)

That's what they said about what was "great" about winmodems. At least OpenAL is an open API that's actually cross-platform.

Then hopefully it should be an easy recompile for people that use Miles or FMOD, if either updates to OpenAL.

End of gaming? (2, Insightful)

Bastian (66383) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819850)

I seem to remember a similar thing being said about the latest version of Windows around about 1995.

It's not going to happen. Windows and the gaming industry rely on each other far too heavily for either to allow this to happen. Much of what continues to prop up Windows's dominance of the home market is the one home computing activity for which Windows is still undeniably the better choice - gaming. Meanwhile, I seriously doubt that the gaming industry wants to return to the days of market segmentation when they couldn't write games for only one platform while maintaining access to 95% of the market.

Re:End of gaming? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17820118)

"Meanwhile, I seriously doubt that the gaming industry wants to return to the days of market segmentation when they couldn't write games for only one platform while maintaining access to 95% of the market."

You mean like... games consoles? The games consoles that even Microsoft is pushing nowadays?

By the way, who was saying Vista will be the end of gaming? If anything, gaming is more likely to be the end of Vista.

Win2k (1)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 7 years ago | (#17819952)

Wow, I'm way behind. Everything I enjoy plays just fine on Windows 2k. My next step is Ubuntu & virtual machines, I'll never *ever* switch over to Vista...

Re:Win2k (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17821424)

Wow, I'm way behind. Everything I enjoy plays just fine on Windows 2k. My next step is Ubuntu & virtual machines, I'll never *ever* switch over to Vista...

Yes, you're way behind the pack of sheep. But always look on the bright side of life: your FPS is higher!

Followed the link to voodoo extreme... (0)

Assmasher (456699) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820060)

...and the idiot who wrote that article doesn't even appear to understand how DirectX works. The Windows Vista team could rewrite the audio stack all they want and it would have f*** all to do with DirectSound using HW or not. If the audio stack allows for DirectSound then HW acceleration is up to DirectX and the audio card's device driver, NOT the Windows Vista developers.

Re:Followed the link to voodoo extreme... (3, Informative)

Assmasher (456699) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820304)

I am totally 100% incorrect about this and I apologize. Back when the first DX10 betas shipped, we tested on Vista and found that we got all the HAL layers we expected. I have tested it intermittently over the past year with no problems; however, I just ran our tool again against the latest SDK and found that I get 'Emulation.' (We used to get WDM.)

Apologies again for jumping about 10 meters past the gun.

Re:Followed the link to voodoo extreme... (1)

Assmasher (456699) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820356)

If it wasn't for all the anti-cheat tech floating around with games nowadays, I'd say you could simply write a hook for the DirectSound calls from the application itself but that's a pain and also looks like a cheater.

Vista Works for Me (1, Informative)

TheMidnight (1055796) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820074)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I like Vista so far. I bought it last night at midnight on a new HP machine, and so far, it's really nice. Of course, I got a 22" LCD monitor to go with it, which makes reading Slashdot almost magical. :-)

I installed Doom 3 and Quake IV on the system (the newest games I have since I bought an Xbox 360 a few months ago) and they ran just fine. I got about 60 fps on both games at high (not maximum) detail settings and no noticable lag or excess hard drive activity. I had no sound problems or video problems. Granted, being a brand new Vista system the driver issues others were seeing are probably moot.

So far, I'm impressed. Vista is light-years beyond XP and is right up there with Mac OSX. I have a Mac laptop and I'll say they are a little similar, but not a rip-off. The main similarities to me are the login screen and the gadget sidebar, which looks an awful lot like the Dashboard mated with the Dock. For gaming, Vista is top-notch. I've also heard (not verified) that a game for Vista will be able to play someone on the Xbox360 on my home network in the same game. If that's true, that would give me good reason to buy lots of new games for both platforms and have people over.

Re:Vista Works for Me (2, Interesting)

WiiVault (1039946) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821508)

I suspect you may be alittle rosey about this considering that you went in at midnight. No SLI, no hardware audio, tons of DRM and signed drivers. No way is this better than XP at this point for any gamer (or even most general users).

Vista? Who cares? (4, Interesting)

amuro98 (461673) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820230)

Vista is just a conspiracy between Microsoft and the hardware companies to get everyone to spend at least $500 on hardware for an OS no one really needs.

Could someone PLEASE explain to me why it is that Aero NEEDS a 128MB video card when it doesn't do anything beyond what Stardock.com's Object Desktop has been doing for the past 8 years!?

Re:Vista? Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17821118)

? It needs 256M. And because 128M is too little.

Re:Vista? Who cares? (1)

MSFanBoi2 (930319) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821150)

Actually you are totally incorrect. Yes SOME things Aero can do, ObjectDesktop can do, but its not even close to the same.

Thats almost like the people that compare OpenGL to DirectX...

Mod parent up (1)

SoopahMan (706062) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821814)

Agreed. I was almost shocked when I saw how much StarDock had done to improve on Windows' aging UI. They've done a lot that people ask for in Windows all the time, but their marketing is so poor, few people realize and even fewer will pay the $10 or $20 registration fee for it. But now people are going to move to Vista for between $100 and $500 for the software alone? Unbelievable.

I liked Windows 95 and XP a lot. I'm not your usual anti-Microsoft Slashdot troll. But Vista is just bad news from every angle so far it seems.

Gameport = pwn3d (2, Interesting)

rizzle (848961) | more than 7 years ago | (#17820984)

Here's one reason: Microsoft dropped support for the gameport.

Before I say why this means a lot, let me say that I've been playing a lot of Battlefield 2 lately, a game in which using a joystick makes it much easier (and more natural) to flying all the fixed-wing and rotary-wing aircraft in the game. I've dug up my MS Sidewinder Force Feedback Pro joystick to play the game and let me say it's every bit as good as it was when i first got it.

IMHO, the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback joysticks are some of the best joysticks ever made. Their force feedback system used cables rather than springs and rubber bands so they are extra sturdy and hard to break. Anyone who's owned one of these joysticks knows what I'm talking about.

Obviously, the normal reply is "Get a new joystick!" Maybe it's just me, but I can't deal with the fact that all current joysticks look so ridiculous (*cough* Saitek), with all their colored plastic bits etc. Hell, owning a joystick is nerdy enough, but why does it have to scream "Don't come near me!!!" ?

Here's an interesting thing. So the gameport *is recognized* by Vista, and when it tries to find drivers for it, it locates "Creative Game port" (I have a Sound Blaster card) and starts installing it when it fails by saying that the INF file is incorrect.

Anyway, that's why I'm still dual-booting into XP :)

Re:Gameport = pwn3d (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17821714)

I like my Saitek X52. Sits atop my glass desk, flanking my monitor and the LEDs match the backlighting from the G15. The buttons are very well positioned and there are adjustable torque knobs on the side. In less modernistic/minimalist settings, the Saiteks stand out quite a bit, but in my situation, they actually blend in rather well.

Multi-Core Processor Support (1)

Absolut187 (816431) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821306)

Does Vista provide any help to programmers in terms of utilizing the power of multi-core processors?
And if not, why?

By which I mean some kind of automated distribution of tasks to the separate processor cores. I don't know much about splitting a program into multiple threads...

It seems like this is what a "next-gen" OS really needs to do for gamers... right?

"Sound Off On Vista" (1)

dilvish_the_damned (167205) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821444)

Hello Tim Dean,
FTA - However, all this talk about hardware and software acceleration raises another big question: is hardware acceleration such a good thing after all?
No it doesn't. It brings many questions to mind, but certainly not that one. Maybe you should go back to wondering if you left your iron on and leave the thinking to Microsoft. Oh, never mind. As you were.

Really other than that it was a decent read.

It's just too dam slow Jim (1)

bogie (31020) | more than 7 years ago | (#17821684)

Blame Nvidia. We all knew that an across the board 10% drop in performance was coming. New OS=slower by 10%, that's just the way it is. But if anyone is to blame it is Nvidia. Nvidia's crap driver's are causing slowdowns in the effect of 15-50% and thus ruining gaming on Vista. ATI users are in mcuh better shape but they could use some help also.

Unless your an IT professional and need to learn Vista to keep your skills current plan on staying on XP for a long time. Your simply not missing anything.
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