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122 comments

it's all in the name... (1)

User 956 (568564) | more than 7 years ago | (#17954322)

The Escapist has published a complete investigation of what they're calling Jumpgate.

With a name like that, it's got to be good.

Re:it's all in the name... (3, Informative)

merreborn (853723) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955588)

The Escapist has published a complete investigation of what they're calling Jumpgate.

With a name like that, it's got to be good.


Not to be confused with the space-based MMO by the same name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpgate:_The_Reconst ruction_Initiative [wikipedia.org]

Re:it's all in the name... (2, Funny)

the dweeb (169796) | more than 7 years ago | (#17960990)

With a name like that, it's got to be good.

You may laugh, but there's a logical reason for the name.
The scandal's moniker stems from an attempted break-in by CCP developers into the DNC headquarters in the Jumpgate Hotel in Washington, D.C.

That said, I wish hotels would get more creative with their names. I mean, you've got the Irangate, the Monicagate, Whitewatergate, and the Watergate, just to name a few.

Several MMOGS cheat (2, Insightful)

CrazyJim1 (809850) | more than 7 years ago | (#17954402)

I knew a couple MMOGS that would have gold being sold from every single server in masses no individual could achieve in month 2 of launch, lets say about 500 listings. Then I a lowly single server player tries to sell just a little bit of gold, but at a cheaper rate. Within 1 hour my listing is banned. How can mysterious Ebayer X sell nearly infinate money on both Anarchy Online AND Dark Age of Camelot, while anyone else who tries to sell even a small amount gets immediately banned. This was back in the day, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who saw it.

Re:Several MMOGS cheat (1, Troll)

FooAtWFU (699187) | more than 7 years ago | (#17960542)

So... you want sympathy from us because you tried to sell WoW gold and ended up shut out of the market? Tell you what. You and Mysterious Ebayer X can both die in a moonfire.

Re:Several MMOGS cheat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17963108)

It's common knowledge that Funcom once had sting operations to ban buyers and dissuade potential farmers. Didn't know about DAoC, though.

Jumpgate? (1)

spyder913 (448266) | more than 7 years ago | (#17954404)

They already made a game [jossh.com] out of it!

Re:Jumpgate? (1)

mikeasu (1025283) | more than 7 years ago | (#17954598)

I used to play this - not too shabby either. Maybe not quite as involved as Eve Online, but fun regardless. Bit more arcadey - really needed a joystick, but actually attempted to (very loosely) model some physics - inertia for example. Actually, as I recall, the inertia was used as part of the prediction functions of where a player should be x msec from now - was one way to deal with latency.

Re:Jumpgate? (1)

fistfullast33l (819270) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955152)

I played the beta but not the actual game. It was really fun, but it turned me off that there weren't that many people involved at any one time. I think an MMO should have a lot of people. Shame it didn't catch on. I'm keeping my eye on Vendetta Online as well.

Re:Jumpgate? (1)

nekura (600099) | more than 7 years ago | (#17957016)

Ah, Vendetta Online. I used to play it when it had something like, ~150 players concurrently. Now it's down to ~15.

If this was seen more in real life (5, Insightful)

billdar (595311) | more than 7 years ago | (#17954572)

Understandably, a lot of players were still livid, and were expecting at least one head to roll, but their dissent has been heavily moderated.

All I could think reading this article is I wish people devoted this kind of energy, passion, and dedication to their "Real Lives" (TM). The world would be a much better place...

I mean, these guys quote nuances in the rules (law), expect the developers (gov.) to abide by the law, and strive to make people accountable for their actions. The guy who did it actually took responsibility for what he did!

Re:If this was seen more in real life (3, Interesting)

Cornflake917 (515940) | more than 7 years ago | (#17954658)

I couldn't agree more. Some of my friends can talk hours on end about WoW. It drives me nuts. I can see that they have so much passion for overcoming challenges in their virtual world. It's just sad that there are so many challenges in the real world that are being ignored, but people rather level up their fishing on their paladin.

Re:If this was seen more in real life (3, Insightful)

Chosen Reject (842143) | more than 7 years ago | (#17954970)

So what you're really lamenting is that some of your friends don't put forth effort into what you consider more worthy causes. I can guarantee that if you see a problem in the world, someone, somewhere is putting a lot of effort in righting that wrong. If everyone (and I mean that literally) is ignoring a "real world" problem then it isn't a problem by definition. Some guy found what he considered a problem and put effort into correcting it. Just because it wasn't the most important problem by most people's definitions (even probably by him) doesn't mean he wasted his time. I highly doubt he could do much about the "most important problems." So he chose one that he was passionate about and focused his efforts. I wish more people would at least be passionate about something. Most times I honestly don't care what about, just that they feel passionately about something. I applaud the guy. He felt an urge to make a correction, to make others more honest, and he went out and did so. Hurrah, my good friend, hurrah.

Re:If this was seen more in real life (4, Insightful)

Cornflake917 (515940) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956032)

So what you're really lamenting is that some of your friends don't put forth effort into what you consider more worthy causes.
No, I'm lamenting that they are putting all this effort into a virtual cause instead of a real one. I'm not going to judge what their passions if they're are actaully trying to make this world better. But I just fail to see how you can make the world better by sitting on your ass playing WoW 12 hours a day.

Re:If this was seen more in real life (3, Funny)

Lectrik (180902) | more than 7 years ago | (#17959544)

But I just fail to see how you can make the world better by sitting on your ass playing WoW 12 hours a day.

But just imagine the random acts of stupid/evil they would commit if they had those 12 hours free
driving around in their hummers clubbing baby seals in darfur while wirelessly hacking bank accounts to transfer money to north korea to buy nukes to give the terrorists to kill endangered rain forests... Sounds like a fun weekend to me

Re:If this was seen more in real life (1)

3p1ph4ny (835701) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956878)

I read this on my phone earlier, and havn't had a chance to reply until now. Anyways:

I highly doubt he could do much about the "most important problems." So he chose one that he was passionate about and focused his efforts. I wish more people would at least be passionate about something. Most times I honestly don't care what about, just that they feel passionately about something.

Unofficial +5 insightful for that.

Re:If this was seen more in real life (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17959722)

I wish more people would at least be passionate about something. Most times I honestly don't care what about, just that they feel passionately about something.
Please someone, anyone mod this guy +1 funny!

Re:If this was seen more in real life (2, Interesting)

vecctor (935163) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955566)

What you describe makes perfect sense to me.

Your friends:

1) Feel like they have some control over that environment
2) Understand its rules, and how to get things done
3) Can quickly implement the solutions they have found, on their own or with a small group that they have some influence with

None of these things exist/are true in "real life". The worlds problems are not as easily solved as a raid-boss and even if they were (some problems are simple) they are impossible to implement because it requires getting through some sort of bureaucracy/other people/entrenched interests to get accomplished. Your friends could spend their whole lives working on "it" (whatever it is) and accomplish nothing. They can spend a few days/weeks and accomplish their task in WoW (or a software project, or anything else they enjoy).

How many geeks have gone through the phase of becoming very interested in a particular social/government problem, studied up on it and learned all they could, then come up with a solution. (This is the sort of things engineers/geeks will do - and the way they will approach problems) Then when they get done, they realize there is no way they can implement their solution because:

1) The issue is too steeped in politics/corruption/ignorance/bullshit
2) There is no way, as a single person, they can hope to affect any change - even with the best idea in the world

They then realize the futility of it all and go back to solving problems/accomplishing goals that they can actually do something about themselves.

Re:If this was seen more in real life (1)

Broken scope (973885) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956028)

The real life version is futile and painful. The virtual one is futile and FUN!

Re:If this was seen more in real life (1)

murdocj (543661) | more than 7 years ago | (#17959746)

Then when they get done, they realize there is no way they can implement their solution because: 1) The issue is too steeped in politics/corruption/ignorance/bullshit 2) There is no way, as a single person, they can hope to affect any change - even with the best idea in the world

or 3), their idea is some typical simplistic engineer's approach to social problems that ignores most of the realities of the situation.

Re:If this was seen more in real life (4, Informative)

Lord Kestrel (91395) | more than 7 years ago | (#17954782)

Well, the items involved and the isk (in game currency) they represent is worth tens of thousands of US dollars on ebay. The BPO bit is supposed to be a random lottery, spreading wealth out to different people. Instead, this one alliance got a number of them, allowing them to build ships and modules that have no rival. The alliance that has been implicated in all of this just recently finished conquering one of their neighbors, and controls 30-40% of space in the game. This makes all of their actions suspect, and makes it appear that the company running the game (CCP) wants this alliance to finish taking over the entire game.

Re:If this was seen more in real life (3, Informative)

WuphonsReach (684551) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955226)

Here's the Current Political Map [eve-files.com]

Look at the area of control for "BOB" down in the lower-left. I wouldn't call it 30-40%. Not even of 0.0 space (which is the area outside of empire influence). Well, maybe 30% of empire space. The area they just conquered is the region in the lower-right (now colored blue).

They do control a sizeable junk of 0.0 space though. And most of the rest of the corps in 0.0 space consider them a threat.

Re:If this was seen more in real life (1)

Lord Kestrel (91395) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955414)

By space, I meant 0.0, as that is what actually matters. Now that Kali is out, they don't control quite as much, but pre-Kali, I'd say 30-40% is correct. I'm up north, and I know that if they came up looking to invade, it'd be one hell of a fight. If they are supported by CCP devs, who knows what would happen. Of course, d2 is all bob alts, so it'd be one strange fight.

Time to rock and roll over BOB then. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17960240)

Actions have consequences. Looks as though it's time to eliminate BOB as a factor in the game. Grand Alliance of all their competitors anyone?

Re:If this was seen more in real life (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17956428)

This did happen in real life. Or did you think the whole affair was an episode from a novel?

And yes, I wish everyone could just get along too. Then there would be world peace and no one would ever starve, and we could breed unicorns! =^___^= Funny how that hasn't happened yet; I wonder what's taking so long.

Re:If this was seen more in real life (1)

crabpeople (720852) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956522)

"All I could think reading this article is I wish people devoted this kind of energy, passion, and dedication to their "Real Lives" (TM). The world would be a much better place..."

I dont understand this statement. How do you know they don't? Wouldn't you think these same people would be just as upset at real world corruption? Theres no difference between something like insider trading and this scenario, so I dont really get your point.

Re:If this was seen more in real life (1)

billdar (595311) | more than 7 years ago | (#17957834)

How do you know they don't? ... so I dont really get your point.

Your right, I am speaking from my own experience and bias.

But my point is a majority of the folks I've met (and you know them too) have a gripe about everything from our current administration to pot holes in the street. How many hours a day, a week, a month, or a year do they spend doing anything about it?

How many hours do you think were spent tracking this developer down and writing an article on it (minus actual time playing of course)?

I love my games too. But an hour or two of letter writing and phone calls will get my neighborhood pot hole free... What would happen if you and a couple hundred of your closest friends did the same? A couple thousand?

It is (1)

Kloro (1024321) | more than 7 years ago | (#17957832)

All I could think reading this article is I wish people devoted this kind of energy, passion, and dedication to their "Real Lives" (TM). The world would be a much better place...

We do, but the Devs^H^H^H^H Supreme Court decided to give BoB^H^H^H Bush T2 BPOs^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H the election, and so we're in the situation we're in now, despite our best efforts. You'd be surprised how many protests aren't being televised, even in liberal places like San Francisco and Berkeley.

At least with Eve we can easily decide not to give them our money. Or our lives, for that matter.

Re:It is (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17960014)

I bet alot more of the pot smoking hippie socialist fags will vote next time.

Re:If this was seen more in real life (1)

discord5 (798235) | more than 7 years ago | (#17964340)

All I could think reading this article is I wish people devoted this kind of energy, passion, and dedication to their "Real Lives" (TM). The world would be a much better place...

That time that most people spend wasting cycles in front of the television is the time these people use to do something they enjoy. Whatever time and energy these people devote to a game is their own business.

I mean, these guys quote nuances in the rules (law), expect the developers (gov.) to abide by the law, and strive to make people accountable for their actions. The guy who did it actually took responsibility for what he did!

Everyone in Eve knows the EULA, because at some point everyone has been scammed ingame. CCP doesn't hold your hand in case something happens, and in the fine print of the EULA it says "A fool and his money are easily parted" (although not literally). The developers as players are not above the law. If developers were above the law, corporations that had developers in them would have an "I WIN"-button. The guy who cheated didn't even get the usual punishment from CCP (which is being fired). So yes, some are still screaming for his head.

The problem with real world analogies in this case is that if the players are upset, they stop paying and wave the game a goodbye. In real life you can't flip off the government and stop paying taxes, although some people try. In fact, in some places, pointing out the fact that the government is doing something wrong can end you up in serious problems. Getting your account banned for pointing out developer misconduct is one thing, finding yourself in a jailcell with no rights for pointing out government misconduct is another.

Nothing to see here (1)

Lord Kestrel (91395) | more than 7 years ago | (#17954634)

Sounds like they did what a lot of people thought might happen, and didn't really do anything.

Wow kinda scary (1)

Drakin020 (980931) | more than 7 years ago | (#17954724)

Me and my alliance (SMASH) Alliance were in a war just before Kali came out. Kali would expand some of the world. We were holding the enterance to this area and while we were fighting this war we found out BoB (Band of Borhters) were funding our enimies...Man that just pisses me off knowing they have been getting help.

Meanwhile (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17954746)

George W. Bush starts a war to settle a personal vendetta, costing the US economy about a trillion and change. Slashdotters respond by fretting and frowning over misconduct by developers of an online video game.

I guess the Sixties really didn't count. I never really believed that before today. Does that make me a naive person, or just a dumbass?

Re:Meanwhile (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17954988)

Does that make me a naive person, or just a dumbass?

Probably both.

Do you really think the hippies ended the Vietnam conflict? if you do you're a fucking moron. China had more to do with the American withdrawal than any amount of protesting "back home".

I guess you old folks like to rewrite history to make yourselves look like heroes instead of the dimwitted dildos that you are.

Re:Meanwhile (-1, Offtopic)

dlt074 (548126) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955002)

how about both? enough with the evils of Bush, it gets old having to read the same posts story after story. Bush this and Bush that. what will we do if someone bad really does become president? the boy who cried wolf is a great story... read it sometime. the sixties and the boomers that came out of it are the main cause of our problems today. i for one am tired of hearing the same bitching and moaning day after day and will be glad when they're all reformed or dead.

Re:Meanwhile (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17955998)

America, FUCK YEAH!

Go to bed America. Everything's fine.

Game group has policy of breaking the rules (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17954848)

Ishos Rerajan ... was eventually appointed the head of their capital ship fleet - ships piloted by players who've logged upwards of a year of training time. One of his duties was to monitor the progress of the pilots below him, meaning he'd have access to their account information, which is in violation of EVE's rules.

That's cryptic as hell. Is he really saying that the Band of Brothers corporation has a position whose job description expressly called for the person to break Eve's rules? If that's the case, it would seem that the BoB corporation is due for some massive bans for intentional violation of the rules.

Either way, what is the relevance to a general discussion of developer misbehavior? I assume "account information" means username and passwords so the person can log in and confirm information. While against the rules, it's something anyone, developer or not, could do. Perhaps he means "by directly accessing Eve's databases," which suggests that BoB is deeply in bed with CCP.

Re:Game group has policy of breaking the rules (2)

WuphonsReach (684551) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955554)

Maybe... they could've also had the pilots submit daily / weekly / monthly XML dumps of their character information from the "My Character" XML export:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/character/skilltree.as p?characterID=XXXXXXXXXX [eve-online.com]

What I'm not sure of is whether one player can look at another player's skilltree on the website, or whether it's locked down. (Pretty sure it's locked down.)

The XML file wouldn't be as trustworthy as getting it from the source (myeve.eve-online.com server), but if a pilot was slacking it would quickly be apparent in-game.

Alternately, the person in charge could require screenshots from the in-game character window that shows the skills.

Re:Game group has policy of breaking the rules (1)

JDAustin (468180) | more than 7 years ago | (#17964540)

No, the purpose was for the CynoNet. To get capitals from one place to another fast, you have a series of Alts created that are camped in specific systems for the sole purpose of creating Cynosure bubbles. These are the destination points for a cap ship to jump to.

It is common in alliances such as BoB to have a series alts and to have the high level directors to have access to all of them. In this case, the dev in question had to coordinate the cynoNet and there for was completly involved in this kind of accoutn sharing.

Re:Game group has policy of breaking the rules (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955584)

People are getting banned from Eve's ingame chat for even mentioning this story.

I've mentioned several times in comments here that Eve-online is my favorite time-waster. I've even based a bit of my research on it. I'm pissed, but I haven't decided what to do about it. I may have to make some adjustments to my research. I really need to find a game where there's no such "funny stuff" going on to make my thesis work.

Re:Game group has policy of breaking the rules (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17957488)

The corruption runs deep. There are more people involved.

The auditors are not as "independent" as you may think. It's the fox guarding the henhouse.

The resulting punishment is just to quiet down the community. There is no intent to punish the developerS responsible. t20 just offered himself up as a scapegoat to get a tongue lashing by the community.

The policy from upstairs is quelch the attention by continuing the deletion of posts and banning of accounts that bring the subject up.

When it blows over they are just going to market the game to boost the subscription base back up.

The problem is that nothing is going to happen internally to any of them so you can stop trying to whine about it. Friends stick together and they treat the community like a cash faucet not as people. They get something from the in game freebies they spawn. So you can continue playing in a game that is rigged with no real oversight or you can go and find someplace else to play and give your monthly checks to. But it really isn't going ot hurt their bottom line much if that is what you are expecting to do.

The way I see it you need to get this thing blogging and in the media. Get someone who has a decent viewerrship (penny-arcade.com) to write this up. Hit a few million readers. Fan the flames until it gets some mainstream press. Pitch it as a chink in the armor of virtual economies so it comes off the recent Second-Life media campaign that just went on. If enough activist comes out about little to no regulation or oversight of these virtual economies they become miniature fiefdoms where the citizenry as little to no chance of fairness.

Oh and I'm not not and insider or anything. I just stayed at a Holiday Inn once.

Re:Game group has policy of breaking the rules (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 7 years ago | (#17964324)

If you see the way they react- focus on shooting the messenger rather than fix the problem, I doubt you should bother spending so much on that game anymore.

There's enough crap like that for "free" in the real world. Why pay some corrupt corp for crap like this?

My accounts are cancelled (2, Interesting)

stoat (125788) | more than 7 years ago | (#17954858)

I hope you will speak with your wallet if you actually care about these issues. Otherwise you're just another whiner.

Re:My accounts are cancelled (1)

ad0gg (594412) | more than 7 years ago | (#17954908)

Can i have your stuff?

Re:My accounts are cancelled (1)

Phil246 (803464) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955118)

Already have, sort of.

I originally cancelled my subscription on the basis i didnt have enough money :) ( hey im a student )
Having read about this, I think its safe to say that i dont intend to go back even if my financial situation improves.
If you cant trust the gamekeepers to play fair, who can you trust?

Re:My accounts are cancelled (1)

the dark hero (971268) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955172)

Agreed. the game can be hard enough as it is, but this repels me from continuing.

Re:My accounts are cancelled (1)

RealityMogul (663835) | more than 7 years ago | (#17958132)

The laggy servers, lack of customer service, and daily downtime were enough for me to cancel a year ago. Somehow my $15/month didn't put a dent in their wallet.

community (4, Insightful)

Lehk228 (705449) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955134)

this is what happens when the "community" for a game lives mostly on boards managed by the owners of that game, you end up with censorship and unfair bannings.

Re:community (1)

WNight (23683) | more than 7 years ago | (#17961030)

Have you seen hoodwink.d?

There are various ways for people to chat/message on other peoples' servers, but they're all a little awkward?

We need something like hoodwink.d, coral cache, and freenet. With threaded messaging, and reputations. Then the conversation could happen just as easily at on company sites, but without them having any admin power.

Broken Aspect in Eve (5, Informative)

Cornflake917 (515940) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955272)

This whole fiasco would have never happened if their method of introducing "epic" level equipment wasn't so horribly broken.

I'll give a basic summary:

Most weapons/equipment/ships in Eve are known as Tech 1 equipment. Tech 1 equipment require the material and Blueprints (sort of like recipes) to make them. Pretty much anyone can get into manufacturing Tech 1 equipment really easily. NPC's sell the blueprints at various stations, for relatively cheap prices.

The elite/uber items in the game are known as Tech 2 items. These ships/equipment are significantly more powerful than their Tech 1 counter parts. A cruiser with T1 equipment can't even be compared to a T2 cruiser with T2 equipment. Now since CCP wanted to keep the prices of these items really high, they decided to implement a lottery system. They made you go through some really complicated process of doing "research missions" (I still don't really know the specifics because people don't want to give away the secrets and lose chances of winning the lottery). Once you've done enough research missions you can put in your bid in for a very small chance of winning a T2 blueprint. Since very few people have these blueprints, you basically have a monopoly over the epic items if you win the blueprint, allowing you to charge friggin' rediculous prices when you sell the items on the market.

Now, all in all this isn't a horrible situation except when you get a powerful Alliance like BoB who have tons of manufactuers/industrialists and the money to back them up. They got in to the T2 market early and was able to by other T2 blueprints from non BOB players because they could offer healthy sums of cash without blinking and eye. Now add the fact that THERE ARE DEVELOPERS playing for BoB who were giving them T2 blueprints for free, the market became fubar'd, and one alliance dominates every fucking aspect of the game. Not cool.

CCP tried to fix things with invention, where you could upgrade T1 blueprints to T2. But it was an even more difficult process and the results was a temporary blue print that would go away after a few uses. It's nothing that could break up the monopoly.

Blizzard really got it right when they introduced "bind on equip" and "bind on pick-up" equipment. It prevented the hardcore players of hording all the "good" items and then selling them for unfair prices. If CCP introduced something similar with blueprints, I think the T2 market wouldn't have been so broken.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (4, Interesting)

Nananine (967931) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955418)

That's a very good perspective on the issue. However, without the pure capitalism they have in game, EVE just wouldn't be EVE. The game is built on how cut-throat it is. So it's all right that major power blocks control the economy, because that's just the nature of the beast.

However, when a DEVELOPER OF THE GAME comes in and deliberately tips the balance in favor of an alliance he's not only friendly with, but helped RUN, then there's a real problem. The economic model is no longer cut-throat and capitalistic, it's just unfair.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (2, Interesting)

MrAnnoyanceToYou (654053) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955784)

Bah. The cut throat and capitalistic nature of the economy is based upon the conditions which are preset. The entire BPO idea was fundamentally flawed, and invention has not solved the problem. It will not, without much higher run BPC's.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (3, Insightful)

xero314 (722674) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956590)

However, when a DEVELOPER OF THE GAME comes in and deliberately tips the balance in favor of an alliance he's not only friendly with, but helped RUN, then there's a real problem.
How is this any different than other forms of capitalistic market manipulation. Those with power and resources tend to stay in power and maintain control of resources. I think this is a perfect example of capitalism at work. With all the MMO players out there trying to defend peoples right to use real life resources for in game benefit I just can't see how a developer using their resources for in game benefit is any different. Just consider the Developers to be like the Rockefellers or Kennedys of the real world, they had a better starting position than you, not much you can do about it.

The economic model is no longer cut-throat and capitalistic, it's just unfair.
Who ever said that cut-throat and capitalistic was fair. You are a bit foolish (a.k.a. middle class) if you believe this.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

Nananine (967931) | more than 7 years ago | (#17958258)

Actually, that's a very good point and I agree with you.

Maybe we shouldn't look at it as a "truly capitalistic model." How about this... In the context of the game, do you think players intentionally cozying up and working with developers for in-game advantages should be allowed? And do you think those developers should exploit the game, given their distinct advantages?

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

MaWeiTao (908546) | more than 7 years ago | (#17959666)

Who ever said that cut-throat and capitalistic was fair.


This is a bit off-topic, but I just have to address this since it seems to be a common habit to bash capitalism on Slashdot.

People have a tendency to talk like these traits are unique to capitalistism, as if the system were somehow especially conducive to such imbalances. These are characteristics of the human race, not any particular political and social system.

I think I recall quite a few systems where the fewer effectively exploited the many. Monarchies and communism are two that spring to mind. Communism might have seemed nice on paper but in practice it was a complete and utter disaster. The people live in poverty with little drive to excel because there's no reason to bother and they've come to depend on the government for assistance.

In most situations capitalism allows anyone with a good bit of drive to be at least moderately successful. Humans, and nature in general are competitive. That's how we evolve. The ideal system encourages that and rewards people for their drive and hard work.

What's happened in Eve Online is not a result of a capitalist system. It's a result of people exploiting the system unfairly. And it wasn't a flaw in the system, it was a flaw in the management of the game that created imbalances and cheating on the part of some developers who decided to collude with players.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

HuguesT (84078) | more than 7 years ago | (#17960960)

So what you are writing is that capitalism is the absolute worst economic system, except for all the others ?

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

FooAtWFU (699187) | more than 7 years ago | (#17960614)

How is this any different than other forms of capitalistic market manipulation.
As far as the in-game world is concerned, this isn't really a market. A market is a place of voluntary exchange. This basically goes outside the market. Not everyone can get a developer to give them stuff. Can you say 'barrier to entry'?

This is why people are concerned about having a free market instead of just "capitalism". Heck, it's not as if those with power and resources didn't tend to stay in power and maintain control of resources during Communism or Feudalism or what-have-you throughout history. They certainly weren't any less cutthroat. The difference is that a really free market lets people go their own way, and choose their own fate, insofar as they are able; someone else can always come along with a better way of doing things.

Capitalist or Fascist? (1)

MMaestro (585010) | more than 7 years ago | (#17962798)

If you read about this report simply from the economic perspective, this is capitalism at its finest, true. But what most people don't realize is that this goes FAR beyond "pure capitalism", this is damned near "pure fascism."

Want to talk about the topic on the forums? Censored! Fight back against BoB? 'Thats a nice looking territory you've got there... we'll take it. Literally.' Go to the developers (government)? Fool! They ARE BoB.

Even "pure capitalism" has safeguards against the extreme collection of power one corporation can have. Capitalism can bring down even the biggest corporations, governments can push back in extreme cases (usually militarily) and in the real world money/assets/munitions cannot be magically created at the whim of a CEO. What you see in EVE right now is a mega corporation (BoB) literally destroying its competition (territories that took years to establish are being swept away in months), the government (EVE developers) has put a gag law against the public (censored forums), is supplying the corporation with weapons (tier 2 weapon blueprints), technology (tier 2 ship blueprints) and information (information regarding where and when certain targets will spawn ahead of time) and the market is as free as a Guantánamo Bay prisoner right now (with overwhelming firepower, sooner or later you WILL get muscled out of the market.)

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

king-manic (409855) | more than 7 years ago | (#17957704)


However, when a DEVELOPER OF THE GAME comes in and deliberately tips the balance in favor of an alliance he's not only friendly with, but helped RUN, then there's a real problem. The economic model is no longer cut-throat and capitalistic, it's just unfair.


It's like having a market economy, except God happens ot be very cosy with the CEO of the largest company.

Do you not-see what's going on? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#17958618)

It's like having a market economy, except God happens ot be very cosy with the CEO of the largest company.

There was one political party in one European country back in the 1930s that accused Jewish businessmen of being too cozy with God. "Chosen people" anyone? Do you not see where this will lead if left unchecked?

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

mknewman (557587) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955670)

"Blizzard really got it right when they introduced "bind on equip" and "bind on pick-up" equipment. It prevented the hardcore players of hording all the "good" items and then selling them for unfair prices. If CCP introduced something similar with blueprints, I think the T2 market wouldn't have been so broken." Isn't that what CCP did in EVE with Implants/Hardwiring and now Rigs? You put them in and they are not removable. Most are also very expensive.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

Cornflake917 (515940) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956138)

That's correct, implants and rigs are the Eve equivilants of "BOE" equipment. However implants/rigs are such a small aspect when calculating your ships overall effectiveness. Implants and rigs are also very small when compared to the whole market. Almost all of WoW's top equipment are BOE's/BOP's that are earned as PVP rewards or as instance drops.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

MrAnnoyanceToYou (654053) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955742)

Actually, the truly uber equipment in EVE are the officer modules. But using a bunch of T2 stuff to acquire them a lot more easily sounds about par for the course. Realistically, hammering a few core devs back to absolute newbies might be a great thing for the game; they'll learn - if they really play from the absolute beginning again - a lot about how the game works. Hopefully the dev that handed out BPO's will try a manufacturing / trade char. That would be nice. Overall, though, I'm not surprised at all. Too many things are going one way in the game. There are still stories passed around in our corp about 'events' getting scheduled where the events team came around in sets of faction BS's and slaughtered everyone, allowing a different corp to finish off a POS.

Things like this can cause bad blood for years. Honestly, I wish they had absolutely emptied the inventory of the richest five chars in BoB. Cheating? Start it all over in a Velator. Alts too. Good luck, have fun.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

Cornflake917 (515940) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956292)

Ah good point, I almost forgot about officer modules. I guess T2 are more like the "blues" and officer modules are like epics. But really even after playing the game for 6 months, using officer mods just wasn't a viable option for me. They are so rare, so expensive, and with a unforgiving game like Eve, they just weren't worth it. Really, the only people who can afford it are the PVE only types, or the extremely rich types, and the extremely rich types are usually synonymous with T2 blueprint holders.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955758)

You are correct in everything you say, Cornflake, except that most Tech2 equipment is only a few percentage points better than the tech1 counterpart. But there are some pieces that really are "epic".

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

Cornflake917 (515940) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956208)

Yes, just like epics in WoW are only a few percentage points better than blue's, which are only slightly better then greens.

When you are able to fully outfit your ship with T2 equipment, a few percentage points (more like 5%) multiplied by 10-20 ends up being quite significant difference.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17955918)

Bind on pickup/bind on equip is an absolutely shitty concept. Guild Wars does it right. Make items extremely easy to come by, so you can concentrate on playing, and not grinding for the uber fucking lewt that you have to have to even remotely approach competitiveness.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (4, Informative)

ZorbaTHut (126196) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956034)

If you're curious:

First, find a research agent in a corp you like. You can find lists of research agents, as well as what BPOs you're likely to get out of them, in various places (the one I use is locked behind a corporate login, but I'm sure they exist. This is data available freely, too - you could just download the Eve database packs and read it out of there yourself.) High-level agents are far better. Ideally, you want to find four or five L4 Q10-20 agents, all of which specialize in research types that you're interested in.

Next, grind faction with that corp. I recommend kill missions. You'll need to get your corp standing up to around 5, as I remember, and your corp/faction standing up to around 7. (These can be the same standing, of course.)

Meanwhile, you'll need to train the research skill you want. These invariably require Research V and some other tier 1 skill at V. Gallentean Starship Engineering, for example, also requires Mechanic V, while Laser Physics requires Engineering V. You'll probably want to train these skills up to 3 or 4, since they govern how many research points you get. On top of this you probably want Research Project Management at 3 or 4, which will also require Laboratory Operation V. So you're looking at maybe a month or two of training. The skills aren't trivial.

Once you've done all this, you can talk to a research agent (or 4 or 5, or even 6 if you took research project management to V for some reason) and tell them to start researching. From here, your job is essentially done. You'll get RP every day at a constant rate. There are daily "research missions" you can do - they're always courier missions - to double the RP you get that day. But there's no penalty for ignoring them, beyond not getting the RP.

If you're lucky enough to be picked in a BPO auction, the agent will send you a mail and hold the blueprint for a time period (I think it's two weeks.) You'll also lose all your RP on that agent - not that you'll care. Grab the BPO and profit . . . and remember to restart research with that agent, since it stops after you get a BPO. And if there's anything better than a T2 BPO, it's got to be two T2 BPOs.

Now you know everything about research.

Personally, I hate the idea of bind-on-equip and bind-on-pickup. I like how economic Eve is. There's undercutters, resellers, even price control cartels (ever wondered why Improved Cloaking Devices have been so expensive? All the BPO owners are in a cartel. Price seems to be dropping now though, I wonder if the cartel was broken.) Eve is a bitch of a game, but it's supposed to be, and that's why a lot of us play it.

There's nothing else in the world where you can destroy $4000 of someone else's property without their permission and then brag about it without having to worry about cops.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

adam31 (817930) | more than 7 years ago | (#17960762)

There's nothing else in the world where you can destroy $4000 of someone else's property without their permission and then brag about it without having to worry about cops.


Glad I never played this corrupt game. The developer-sponsored cheating that has happened might inspire real anger, and it sounds like the company is liable.

It's a good way to sink, destroying property when you have an anchor named 'Fraud' attached to your ankle. And then it's not even the cops you worry about... it's those damned civil suits. Less burden of proof, more money. You start praying you're clean when those wolves come sniffing around. If people actually sank that kind of money into this economy, it's not because they couldn't afford lawyers. And, more importantly, it wouldn't be surprising if that valuation didn't evaporate in a flash after this incident.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

edschurr (999028) | more than 7 years ago | (#17961500)

Personally, I hate the idea of bind-on-equip and bind-on-pickup. I like how economic Eve is.
It seems like having a complex economy would result in funner play. In WoW nothing had any consequence, unless you liked fighting for the sake of fighting. There was always the "carrot" of getting good gear to have an advantage...at more fighting.

I wouldn't play EVE though because I prefer finding a way to write code and study things, more than actually carrying them out. And in mmorpgs people aren't fond of enriching ones experience with scripting. There seem to be no interesting goals in Second Life so that's out. A man can dream...

Or maybe I will just cheat.

Re:Broken Aspect in Eve (1)

ZorbaTHut (126196) | more than 7 years ago | (#17965472)

This is pretty much what I feel, yes :) I'm still a relative newbie, but I've helped blow up hundreds of dollars worth of incredibly expensive ships, in my brand new frigate worth . . . about five cents. Consequences are fun.

The interesting parts of the game aren't busywork (like production, which just happens in the background, or PvP), but mining and killing pirates are really rather repetitive. I do those in small quantities when talking on the phone :P I wish they were more interesting or scriptable in some way.

It's a great game overall, but it's a bitch of a game and you absolutely need a good corporation (basically a group.) Not perfect, in the end.

Really a big deal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17955396)

Nobody got fired over some in-game hookups? I'm SHOCKED.

Honestly, unless you were in the top 1% of EVE players dealing with the Capitol Ships and such, this probably won't affect you.

Re:Really a big deal? (1)

TeraCo (410407) | more than 7 years ago | (#17959530)

You're looking at it the wrong way: "No one got fired for destroying our credibility and risking our customer base?" Well, I am shocked. Cheating GM's in WoW or any other MMO are caught almost immediately and shown the door even faster, because if you don't keep your credibility you might keep your existing addictbase, but you're not going to get any new players any time soon.

Re:Really a big deal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17961560)

From "http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bi d=423""
"The developers of this company will always play the games that they build here"
What?? They can test game, or be guides (for newbies and such) but they should in no way be active players. I am not avare of any other game where devs are active players.

The Significance of Cheating in EVE (4, Informative)

rsmith-mac (639075) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955448)

Since most people still don't know anything about how EVE works, I though I'd set up a little explanation on why the devs cheating in this game is so significant.

While undoubtedly devs cheat in all sorts of MMOs, I'd initially hesitate in comparing EVE to any of those MMOs. EVE isn't a PvE game it's a PvP game, and that makes a huge difference in the significance of cheating. Since WoW is the popular game here at Slashdot, I'll use the following analogy to set up this difference:

The EVE universe is Azeroth, and the high-end zones and their dungeons are what would be 0.0(no security) space in EVE. One can't own a high-end zone in WoW under normal PvE rules, all land is open to all players. This is not the case in EVE, 0.0 is designed to be owned and consequently limited to certain parties; in effect you can have your own high-end zone with your own dungeons that no one else can run.

As for why this makes a difference in cheating, cheating in WoW would mean someone gets rich and gets some unbelievably good gear; it knocks you further down the list of cool people and makes the stuff you have worth less, but that's about it. The devs cheating in EVE however can result in one faction controlling more and more pieces of 0.0 space, and the losers from this get kicked out. Unlike the WoW player who can still continue going to high-end zones and running dungeons, the EVE player has lost actual game content, they can't go to the 0.0 space they once held, and the finite amount of 0.0 space in the game means it's unlikely they'll be able to take anyone else's either. Meanwhile the faction that just kicked them out is now even richer, and will go on to take over yet another piece of 0.0 space using their combination of legal and ill-gotten resources.

Cheating sucks for everyone(except the cheater) without a doubt. But this is to my knowledge the first example of significant cheating in an actual massive PvP MMO. It will set a precedent for everyone else, and the results of it will have put the EVE players through a lot more suckage than cheating in most other MMOs would.

Re:The Significance of Cheating in EVE (1)

WuphonsReach (684551) | more than 7 years ago | (#17955814)

Yes, it gives them an advantage (in material and power). But I don't think they'll manage to take over all of 0.0 without falling apart. The odds are highly against them because of the following:

1) They have to keep growing their borders and taming more corporations to act as pets. If they don't grow or constantly engage in wars, their members may get bored.

2) At the same time, they have to keep reign on the existing pets. As the size of the pet population starts to outnumber the owner population, this will become more difficult. Pet corporations eventually will start asking themselves why they pay a fee to live in BoB space.

3) BoB no longer holds the moral high ground. This means that instead of attracting players with integrity, they may start attracting only the sociopaths. (Which is a bit of a black/white simplification.) While sociopaths may make good PvP'ers, I'd argue that they don't make good corp mates.

So I'd put odds of them managing to conquer the entire 0.0 space at about 10:1. They are very organized about it and it is their stated goals. But I don't think they can ultimately pull it off.

Re:The Significance of Cheating in EVE (5, Informative)

Plekto (1018050) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956216)

http://www.eve-files.com/media/corp/CRII/Latest.jp g [eve-files.com]

rsmith-mac is 100% correct. Our entire alliance was kicked out of Stain - the area down south that is grey(it's BoBs - make no mistake about it now). So we went from owners of a small but great region to a bunch of smaller groups all mostly up in the northern areas - as far from BoB as we could manage.

Look at the map. The Blue and contested areas down south are BoB. The dark green Dusk and Dawn areas at the top are also BoB-or their alts and allies.

BoB a YEAR ago was Fountain(contested), Delve, and Period Basis. Now, it's uncontested, and is several areas larger. Three areas to Seven and three more by proxy up north.

The areas in the far east of the map - all *six* of them weren't there two months ago - so redraw the map withut those and it's an apalling amount of area. It's the area north of the big Red Alliance area with a few small colored blobs in it.

BoB is funding mercenaries and groups to keep the groups near it from getting access to it. ths would be Pure, Roadkill, Ratel, Smash, Curse, and Red Alliance. It's not likely to work, because we are all banding together on this, but the problem is that they have an insane amount of power, players, and blueprints.

Getting back to the debacle in Stain. Our alliance was at war with them and one of their allies in the area and doing pretty well. This was about the exact time these incidents happened, in fact.

- Dreadnaughts just came out - the big ships. These are "Tech 1" - which means that the plans aren't rare, but the money to make them is astounding. And they can be insured for 99.9% repayment if they get blown up(Tech 2 ships cannot).

We all started trying to get these ships, most of which required weeks to learn skills and get items built to make them. But BoB, surprize - they had the ships weeks before anyone else in the game. And proceeded to do huge damage to us. Eventually we just got ground under by their economic mmight - which it turns out was started and created three years ago by DevS cheating/aiding their friends.

It's the snowball effect - they were always a few weeks or months ahead of everyone else and guess what - that translates into a huge advantage three years alter that threatens to ruin the whole game.

P.S. 0.0 is effectively EvE because if you are in the center of the map, mining and gringing for a few pennies a day is all you can do. It's effectively the "newbie" area(s) on WoW and most MMORPG games.

Re:The Significance of Cheating in EVE (1)

edschurr (999028) | more than 7 years ago | (#17961524)

What happens when BoB has all the map? I'm curious how things might change at that point. (And I don't mean change on account of the admins, although I suppose that is likely.)

Re:The Significance of Cheating in EVE (1)

dghcasp (459766) | more than 7 years ago | (#17957882)

Simpler version of previous post:

On a PVP server, a bunch of 70 Horde hanging around Scarlet Monastary.

Re:The Significance of Cheating in EVE (3, Interesting)

umbrellasd (876984) | more than 7 years ago | (#17958996)

I personally got a kick out of BoB and the imbalance, because I think it strongly mirrors exactly the type of real world situations that are so interesting. Very often in the real world, someone gains an unfair advantage and exploits it. In fact, this is the foundation of empire--every Empire. Whether economic, technological, or knowledge-based. Someone has an advantage and for a time there is no way to counter it. So they run roughshod over everyone else and subjugate people, and people become more and more oppressed and then revolution. Whether by leveling the playing field (a nation adopts guns to replace the sword when forced to do so or lose sovereignty), or the masses band together in a revolution against those that oppress them and with sufficient numbers that whatever advantage the minority had, it no longer matters.

So in this case, the interesting dynamic I was waiting for was to see an emerging mob of the underpriviledged banding together and saying to the T2 cartel, "Yeah, you've got the good stuff and it's better than our crap, but we have so much crap now and we're dumping so much of it on you, that you are going to suffocate in the stuff and we win anyway."

Alas, it didn't get there, but I was hoping. By far the most fascinating thing about Eve is it's ability to encourage group dynamics. Real corporations comprised of hundreds of people, interacting with each other on the battlefield and in the economy, in a way that more closely parallels the real world than any game I've ever played. I've played more than my share of WoW, and it's got a strong appeal, but the group dynamics are absolutely nothing compared to Eve. There is no other online game with that degree of dynamic. For that, my hats off to CCP, cheating dev and all.

For the most part, only mature adults play Eve, I think. The appeal of the game is too deep, it's not a fast moving game most of the time. Manipulating stock markets, building corporations, obtaining resources, training over the course of a year of real time. It doesn't have the immediate gratification of a WoW, but it is amazing for what it is. I'd be interested to see what the player base would have been capable of on its own as far as restoring balance even in the presence of a monopolizing cartel of T2-lords.

Re:The Significance of Cheating in EVE (1)

cowscows (103644) | more than 7 years ago | (#17962782)

BoB's time would've come eventually, regardless of whether or not the dev's misconduct came to light. Giving away T2 BPO's certainly didn't hurt BoB, but it didn't make them invincible either. Where the devs could have done more damage is by sharing insider information. Who's to say that a dev couldn't easily look up an enemy corp's dread counts and locations, and then pass that on to the rest of BoB's leadership? Maybe the dev knows that a cetain module is going to become more useful/powerful in the next patch, and gives his buddies advanced warning so they can stock up for cheaper. There's also compelling evidence that CCP knew about violations of the EULA within the BoB leadership, and selectively ignored it; things that many others have been removed from the game for. I have no familiarity with EvE's code/database structure/etc, but I'd think that illegally gotten T2 BPO's would be one of the more blatant and easily detectable ways to cheat. I'd imagine that a dev who was willing to risk that has probably already done plenty of cheating in less obvious ways.

It's one thing for a powerful group to use their strength to reinforce their position and maintain their dominance. It's another for them to be aided by individuals that have abilities within the game that basically resemble the "EvE God". In the real world, cartels can organize, they can buy out competition, but they can't see the future and they can't just instantly spawn wealth generators out of nothing. And what really pisses off a lot of people in regards to BoB benefiting from this cheating is that BoB's leadership has constantly crapped all over EvE's forums with a holier-than-thou attitude, telling everyone how great they are, accusing others of trying to ruin the game, and using their wealth/resources/power to demand ass-kissing from the EvE community. And now we find out that not only did they benefit from serious cheating, but at least the leadership of BoB knew they were benefiting from it, and they still strutted around like they were some sort of genius gods of EvE.

While BoB may have legitimately earned much of what they've got, they surely have plenty of skilled players, and many dedicated members; all of their accomplishments are now questionable. And their leadership has been exposed as a bunch of cheaters, and it's hard to have respect for people who cheat when they're already at the top of a game. BoB's end was coming sooner than they'd like to admit before all of this, but this whole scandal has seriously accelerated it, and very few people will feel sorry for them as they die out.

Re:The Significance of Cheating in EVE (1)

RollinDutchMasters (932329) | more than 7 years ago | (#17960902)

Significant Cheating... I'm getting sick of people claiming that what was given to BoB was significant in any way. A handful of BPOs, most of which were of limited value - in the context of alliance economics at that scale, it was nothing. A few days of complex running for BoB's collection of 10/10s at most. The reason that this is an issue is that any help whatsoever was given to one alliance by a rogue developer - NOT that the help which was given was non-trivial. Now its just degenerated into a bunch of idiots rabble-rousing for political gain and a herd of sheep following along.

BoB has no honor left... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17955536)

Too bad for BoB - any honor they might have had, is gone now. Real BoB players (if there are any), should bail and join a real Corp/Alliance instead of the CCP Dev circle-jerk that is BoB.

as a former AAA MMO programmer... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17955962)

(Sorry for the AC comment but I don't want my opinion to reflect on my former employer)

I have to say that I firmly believe that any dev caught tampering with their own game, no matter how small the indiscretion - as long as it is willful and intentional - should be immediately terminated. It's something every dev is tempted to do, but I think it's deeply wrong and hurts the credibility of the whole industry.

With the increasing monetization of MMOs, as well as the real life impact they have for many people, I think the MMO industry should self-regulate with as firm a hand as the gambling industry is supposedly known for. A developer handing out money or favors to his own accounts or friends is not very different from a blackjack dealer helping friends cheat at his table.

I'm sorry if I sound pitiless, but it really seems important to regard these things as important, if we want our customers to have any faith in the credibility of the game.

Weaksauce Confession (5, Insightful)

vain gloria (831093) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956324)

The confession of the dev responsible [eve-online.com] linked to by TFA is interesting.

Sadly enough, the allegation regarding unlawfully obtained blueprints are, in my case, true.
Note "unlawfully" there, is he just talking ingame? What he's admitted to is easily a sackable offence (a path which apparently hasn't been taken), but is it actionable in any practical sense? Probably by his employers if they had shown themselevs so inclined, but not by the community, I'm guessing. Any other NALs with a take on this?

The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP and reintroduced through a new raffle in the future.
Isn't he wearing two hats in this sentence, first the penitent's, then the dev's? Why is the guilty party telling us how the items will be redistributed? A simple "I have been told that..." might at least make it sound more palatable.

As much as this is a confession it is also a request for your forgiveness for events of which I'm truly sorry.
Nothing to be forgiven for dude! Events happen!

rplayer reations to the news to not fire the dev (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17956382)

Read what the EVE players have to say about the cheating dev remaining an employee of CCP:
t20 and Hellmar speak on recent events [eve-online.com]

More info on 0.0 Space (5, Insightful)

Plekto (1018050) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956792)

I forgot in my earlier comment/posting to explain why 6-12 months ago was a critical point in time.

- BoB, as mentioned, was two and a half areas in 0.0 space down in the south-west(the top , Querious - see the eve political map) was somewhat contested.

- The new big patch that was a year in the making came out. And it allowed two major changes.

1: Big ships. Before this, the biggest ship you could have was a Battleship. Big, nasty, but not really effective by itself because so many people had them. PvP was pretty well balanced. But they introduced Dreadnaughts and Freighters. These cost 10-20 times the cost of a battleship but allowed you to move cargo around in massive amounts and lay siege to stations.

2: They introduced player controlled and owned stations. Before this, there were often only 2-3 NPC stations in an entire area and that was it. Now, with player-owned stations, you effectively could claim an area for real - as if you really owned it. Of course, the dreadnaughts had the big weapons needed to take on these player built installations.

The jump BoB recieved was huge - it put them always a step or two ahead of everyone else. I really wish I had a map of the game a year ago - there were 5-6 groups in the areas BoB is currently expanding into down south. They had been fighting over the areas for two years, more or less. BoB comes in and in 5-6 months flattens everything. This clearly wasn't possible without DeV help, and we all knew it, but there wasn't any proof at the time.

- Then they released another patch this last fall - 5 months ago. This broke it entirely.

1:They intoduced motherships and carriers. These ships have the ability to do way more damage than anything before them in the right hands AND they can jump from any system to another, bypassing enemy lines. Want to get from the east of the map to the south? Done. What was risky and took time - now you can jump in an entire fleet behind enemy lines with little risk.

BoB, yet again, got a jump on the rest of us by a month or two and it went from 5-6 smaller groups fighting down south to... *BoB*. This combo of patches, knowing exactly what skills to train and have before the patch, plus early access to the ships - they steamrolled over a large section of EvE before we could really react.

In short, being beat to the punch tme after time because a group of players are in bed with the developers takes all the fun out of it - especially when you are *paying* for the privelege of getting beat so badly.

And CCP deletes posts like this routinely. They also delete in-game petitions routinely under the claim that they server got too full - so try submitting again(after the third time in a row - this gets very old)

My take on CCPs response is that they are flat out lying and will run the game like they want - Developers cheating and all. There's nothing illegal about what they are doing, afterall.

Re:More info on 0.0 Space (4, Interesting)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 7 years ago | (#17958342)

There's two main acts in any scandal like the one in which Eve is involved.

Act One: in which the offender denies everything, then finally admits the truth but tries to weasel out of doing anything about it.

Act Two: in which the story becomes so big as to affect the bottom line (this could mean stock price, subscriptions, or perceived loss in prestige and industry standing, which could limit future earnings). At this point, you start to see heads roll and something actually done about the problem.

Eve is right on the cusp of Acts One and Two. This little drama has become so common that it's become common behavior for corporations to wait to see if Act Two actually starts before acting positively.

As an Eve player and someone who has a fair amount of professional interest in MMORPGs, I plan to wait to see how CCP plays out Act Two before I give up on them and encourage other players to do so as well. But the clock IS ticking, and the intermission is almost over. You hear, CCP?

Re:rplayer reations to the news to not fire the de (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17962828)

We are not the "gods" or "the masters" of EVE Online or the EVE community.

We're SUPER gods!

For all the insight (2, Insightful)

HomelessInLaJolla (1026842) | more than 7 years ago | (#17956852)

For all the insight and knowledge expressed in this discussion you'd think that the game devs were using taxpayer dollars to give themselves artificial game advantages.

Yes. I am saying that this is exactly what happens with taxpayer dollars in the Federal Government, the SEC, the stock market, the Federal Reserve, the state governments... And yet we can plainly see how those discussions go.

How can people be so thick-headed?

ok (0, Offtopic)

nomadic (141991) | more than 7 years ago | (#17959404)

I read through most of that article, then suddenly realized I a) don't play EVE, b) don't know anyone who does, and c) don't really care too much. Why was I reading it? I don't know.

Re:ok (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17959616)

But you care enough to bother us with it?

Re:ok (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17959632)

I read it with interest because I had been considering getting Eve. Not anymore.

OMG This is too perfect... (0, Troll)

Xatticus (1061656) | more than 7 years ago | (#17959606)

I am a WoW player (shocking...I know). But I tried EVE one summer with all my friends and started to kinda get into it. Well eventually just simply mining bored me and I went back to WoW, but my friends stayed. They CONSTANTLY bash on WoW, saying it's the "stupid-man's" game, and how intricate and complex EVE is. I wonder what they'll think of their "high-and-mighty" game when they realize the developers are nothing but cheating scum. When reading that article, and saw that they were going for a mothership, I knew something could not have been right. Other than the Titan-class ships, motherships are the most expensive ships in the game. And then to have all those BPO's. BPO's are EXTREMELY hard to find and worth ALOT of money (especially for those items). Someone needs to pod-kill that dev a few times. So what have we learned today? Play WoW

Guiding Hand Social Club (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17960620)

Why not hire the GHSC to take BoB down?

http://eve.klaki.net/heist/ [klaki.net] (PC Gamer article scans)

Re:Guiding Hand Social Club (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17962834)

Because the famous GHSC guy, Istvaan Shogaatsu, says he is quitting because of this.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topi c&threadID=473335&page=7#187 [eve-online.com]

Why bother with classy backstabbing when the Dev's can cheat at will?

Re:Guiding Hand Social Club (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17962986)

Thanks. I'm not an EVE player but have enjoyed reading about the heists and scams perpetrated by regular players that started from an even playing field. While perhaps the amoral atmosphere promoted this kind of Dev behavior, it is sad to see that the Devs made the choice to cheat. I'd say if the greatest players like the leader of the GHSC are quitting, EVE's days are numbered.

Anthony Zboralski (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#17962658)

I hope kugutsumen ( Anthony Zboralski ) gets prosecuted for hacking into servers over a computergame.

I made the right choice (1, Offtopic)

pissedoffamerican (1002647) | more than 7 years ago | (#17964200)

This is a perfect example of why I don't play games online anymore. Too many assholes and cheats.
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