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P2P Virtual Currency Exchange Launches

samzenpus posted more than 7 years ago | from the buy-your-money dept.

The Almighty Buck 128

miller60 writes "In the wake of eBay's decision to halt auctions of virtual property, new companies are entering the market to fill the void, including one allowing gamers to trade game currency directly with one another rather than buying from IGE or other exchanges. The company, Sparter, says this eBay-like "peer-to-peer" approach will result in lower prices as sellers compete. It incorporates a reputation system and escrow for gold delivery. Sparter received venture funding from Bessemer Capital, signaling that VCs still see opportunity in the virtual economy, even if eBay doesn't."

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playerauctions.com (3, Informative)

CrazyJim1 (809850) | more than 7 years ago | (#18019968)

Playerauctions.com was born when ebay started banning people for selling stuff, and now it should be even stronger. Nuff said.

Re:playerauctions.com (1)

bigtimepie (947401) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020670)

Playerauctions.com was born ... and now it should be even stronger.
For some reason I read that as PlayErections.com.

I almost jokingly a href'd that, but y'all probably would have actually clicked it.. sickos.

Re:playerauctions.com (1)

Otto (17870) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020742)

Clicked it? Hell, I did a whois on it.

Surprisingly, it's not registered. Of course, somebody will go and register it now. There's probably a law stating that any domain name posted jokingly which is unregistered becomes registered within a day. And it's probably at anydomainnamepostedjokinglywhichisunregisteredbeco mesregisteredwithinaday.com too. ;)

Re:playerauctions.com (1)

Korin43 (881732) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021222)

Unfortunately, your proposed domain name is too large for Godaddy to register :'(

Re:playerauctions.com (2, Funny)

jenxdigital (1056298) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022798)

There are at least 30 dirty jokes in that one sentence. And I don't think I've posted often enough to get away with any of them.

woohoo (3, Funny)

Romwell (873455) | more than 7 years ago | (#18019992)

Common sense vs. stupid laws - 1:0

Re:woohoo (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18020170)

Common sense vs. stupid laws - 1:0

You haven't been paying attention to the legal system recently, have you?
The ratio is more like 1:BIGNUM.

Re:woohoo (1)

Bob54321 (911744) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020316)

Looks like a case of an overflowing unsigned long to me...

Re:woohoo (1)

Romwell (873455) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021014)

Wouldn't it actually be a Division By Zero Exception ?

woohoo-Content has "value". (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18020186)

Considering people's attitudes towards digital content and it's "true" value. Maybe it's stupid idea vs sane law.

Virtual money has more inherent value. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18020366)

The American dollar, or any other fiat currency, is just as intrinsically worthless as any virtual money.

Ever since the American dollar, and most other currencies, abandoned the gold standard, such money only has value because people believe it has value. If that belief in value were to shift elsewhere, say to the Euro or even to a common commodity such as cigarettes, most people wouldn't even want to wipe their asshole with Benjamins.

I would even think that these virtual currencies have more intrinsic value than the American dollar. At least these items are backed by in-game perks of some sort. That's more than can be said about the American dollar.

Re:Virtual money has more inherent value. (1)

Bastard of Subhumani (827601) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021862)

Looks like dada21 forgot his password.

Re:woohoo (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18020236)

Oh no, stupid laws haven't lost by a long shot. From what I've seen about tax law, the next step is to tax all item drops. When there is a functional selling space to trade items, then you can figure out a real-world fair market price for any random item in game. If the items can have an actual fair market value pinned to them, then the IRS has all the more power to tax them. They may go for taxing the items not when they are sold for real $, but when they are first "earned" in game. Above that, since the games are mostly dedicated to "grinding" to get those items, should Social Security and Medicare tax be paid on them as well?
If you want to read more, look into the crazy rules for Statutory, Non-Statutory, and Initial Stock Options. From those you can draw a pretty straight line to the endgame I've described.

Re:woohoo (1)

MWoody (222806) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020572)

Wait, what laws? Is Ebay considered an extension of the government now?

Re:woohoo (1)

Romwell (873455) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020946)

Well, does ebay does it out of principle or maybe because they're afraid to get into legal trouble ? (Anyway, I feel sleepy, so I may not make sense)

Embrace it! (1)

ozphx (1061292) | more than 7 years ago | (#18019994)

I would've thought there is less risk in running auctions for virtual goods. I can see eBay wouldn't want to be embroiled in a "This man didnt pay for his Ferrari" dispute, but a (mostly) laughable "This sword was falsely sold with +1 Attack vs RIAA" dispute would be easy to brush aside, and wouldn't likely affect eBay's mainstream reputation.

Being afraid of the content producers, who don't want their stuff being sold is another issue - I would've though up to the players to comply with the TOS, not eBay.

eBay does (embrace it...) (1)

msauve (701917) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022004)

They'll gladly accept your virtual money (charge card) as payment for their virtual auction services. They'd probably take a check (another form of virtual money) or money order (ditto), too.

Re:eBay does (embrace it...) (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022712)

That kind of money still falls under government regulation. The big difference is that if Blizzard wants to increase a player's account by 40 gold they can while a real bank couldn't just increase the number on your account (they have to subract it elsewhere).

When did we stop playing these games? (3, Insightful)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020008)

Isn't the point of any game to advance by playing it?

We all clamor that games aren't fun anymore and yet we don't even want to try to play anymore.

When you feel you have to cheat (and buying money is cheating) to play competitively, where is the fun?

Grind; buying money (4, Insightful)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020030)

Isn't the point of any game to advance by playing it?
In theory, yes. In practice, a lot of games are poorly tuned for casual players, who want to see the high-level content without having to take a pay cut to grind hours a day.

When you feel you have to cheat (and buying money is cheating)
Is buying yen with USD cheating? If not, then why is buying gil with USD cheating?

Re:Grind; buying money (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18020056)

Is buying yen with USD cheating? If not, then why is buying gil with USD cheating?


Is life just a computer game? If not, then how is your first comparison above valid?

Re:Grind; buying money (1)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020108)

Because gil has no intrinsic value outside of a private environment, also that environment establishes many legitimate ways to earn gil and most of all it is against the rules of the game to buy currency outside of the game.

Yeah... and buying things that don't exist from over seas is super great for the economy by the way.

Re:Grind; buying money (4, Insightful)

KingKiki217 (979050) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020410)

Just to play the devil's advocate: What intrinsic value does money have except that of the paper it's printed on? Money represents skill-time in the real world, just like it does in an online game.

Re:Grind; buying money (1)

Otto (17870) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020788)

Money has an intrinsic value in the real world. Namely, that other people will give you goods and services in exchange for it.

To a certain degree, game-money has the same value as real money, except that usually there is not a fixed amount of game money. Therefore game money is, essentially, inflationary, except that prices are generally fixed and so price inflation cannot actually occur.

See, in the real world, money is the medium of exchange for goods and services. But in the game world, realistically, goods (items) are the same as money. They can be gained in the same ways (battles, trade, etc). So what occurs instead of price inflation is item inflation. The number of items in the game always increases. Now, if you can sell items back for, say, half price, then this serves as a deflationary method, reducing the amount of items in the world without putting as much money back in.

Of course, most games I've seen are unbalanced in this way. Games where there is a market for a brisk trade in money sales are more balanced than others, since somebody actually finds it profitable to put in time to gain money from the game system to sell in real life. This means it's hard enough to get money to make it not fun... just like real life... :)

Re:Grind; buying money (3, Insightful)

Bastard of Subhumani (827601) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021908)

Money has an intrinsic value in the real world. Namely, that other people will give you goods and services in exchange for it.
That's self contradictory. Intrinsic value has nothing to do with the value as a medium of exchange. A sandwich has intrinsic value, as it is directly useful in filling a need. Money doesn't since it's only use is as a means of obtaining the sandwich.

Re:Grind; buying money (3, Insightful)

grimwell (141031) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021910)

Money has an intrinsic value in the real world. Namely, that other people will give you goods and services in exchange for it.


Money in a virtual world works the same. Or to look at it from a different angle... what if the good&services you are interested in purchasing are only available in a virtual world?

Exchanging US Dollars for WoW gold is similar to exchanging US Dollars for Euros. The difference is government backing of the currency.

except that usually there is not a fixed amount of game money.


Vs the real world, which has a fixed money [wikipedia.org] supply [typepad.com] ?

See, in the real world, money is the medium of exchange for goods and services. But in the game world, realistically, goods (items) are the same as money.


People still barter in the real world. Easy examples would include collectibles like comic books&baseball cards. Or how about trading in your old car when buying a new one?

Virtual currency is a curious thing when it can be exchanged for government backed currency.

Re:Grind; buying money (1)

mikael (484) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022714)

Yeah... and buying things that don't exist from over seas is super great for the economy by the way.

It's amazing how people will use their credit cards accounts to buy downloadable videos

Exchanging one set of data bits for another...

Re:Grind; buying money (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022746)

I think the last bit is the important part, you're playing a game where a rule is "don't use your real money to influence the game". If you played Settlers of Catan with friends and your negotiation involved e.g. "I give you a dollar for that wool" you'd find yourself thrown out quickly.

Re:Grind; buying money (1)

mattydont (849321) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020286)

Isn't the point of any game to advance by playing it?
In theory, yes. In practice, a lot of games are poorly tuned for casual players, who want to see the high-level content without having to take a pay cut to grind hours a day.

When you feel you have to cheat (and buying money is cheating)
Is buying yen with USD cheating? If not, then why is buying gil with USD cheating?
To start with if exchanging/"buying" yen with usd was cheating that would mean that your comparing real life to a game, gil does not exist in the real world as a real world currency, so in truth what you have just compared is apples to oranges. But yes buying gold/gil/whatever for a game is cheating, as it serves no purpose other then to be use solely in that game and that even though you on some sites can sell gold to the major gold selling sites, it would be worth less to sell it back to them, so in a sense its more of a commodity then a currency.

Not about having a fair game (1)

dsanfte (443781) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020300)

The point, as you say, isn't to create a perfectly fair game. It's to create a world in which some people can be better than others, and where being better also gets you desirable things, like the envy of fellow players.

Whether they're better by means of time invested, or dollars spent, it really makes no difference.

Re:Grind; buying money (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18020306)

Is buying yen with USD cheating? If not, then why is buying gil with USD cheating?

Generally, it's because a game has rules, and breaking the rules is considered cheating.

But, of course, the question becomes whether or not buying gold should be against the rules. If your game is so unfun that people are willing to buy their way into the end - maybe the problem is with the game, and not with people.

In the case of FFXI (since you said gil...) the reason its swarmed with gold sellers is because the game is designed that way, not matter what Square-Enix says. The game easily allows resources to be monopolized, and is set up so that leveling period is essentially impossible without the very best gear. Since the best gear is easily monopolized (no instances) it costs a lot of in-game currency to get. (While FFXI does have the equivilent of WoW's bind-on-pickup, it's rarely used except for quest items.)

So even though the rules say that players can't buy gil, the game is set up such that the only way to play is to amass large amounts of gil. Since the only way to do that according to the rules involves wasting massive amounts of time competing directly with other players for the same rare resources (remember, no instances), this means lots of time spent grinding solely to get ready to grind.

It becomes cheaper to simply buy gil than to waste time working at the game in order to be allowed to play it.

So the problem FFXI has is that the only way to play is to get lots of gil, but the game makes it so that the only way to get lots of gil is to play almost non-stop. Ultimately this means that the only people who can effectively get gil are people playing the game as a job who intend to sell it. It's set up to encourage currency selling - but then the company makes it against the rules.

The only reason gold selling exists in the first place is because the game is designed to make it profitable. If there was no value to the gold in the first place, people wouldn't be willing to buy it. Because the games are designed in such a way that makes the in-game currency worth enough that people are willing to buy it, they create the market.

If the MMORPG producers really want to stop currency selling, they'd design their games in such a way that the ingame currency wouldn't be so valuable. It's the game design that makes the game currency market. They should either enter the market they created themselves, or remove the market entirely. It's their game.

They're in a no-win situation though... (1)

Otto (17870) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020872)

The problem is essentially that they have conflicting goals.

They have to strike a balance between currency and the number of people playing. If the has got too much money, then it's too easy to get the currency and everybody can buy their way to power. If it has too little money, then it's too hard to gain power (requires excessive grinding). Either way is no fun.

To a certain extent, having a real market demand for item pricing would be helpful. Instead of having shops with infinite numbers of items, and having a few items that are known to be the best, you spread it out.
a) There is no one perfect item. All high end items have a few serious weaknesses and some strengths. Only weak items are all strengths. This spreads out demand as people specialize.
b) Some items are limited in number, but these numbers are flexible based on the number of people actively playing. If more items need to be introduced via bosses and such, you do so and don't tell anybody. You also introduce new items from time to time. The number of items should be in the thousands, only weaker ones are infinitely available.
c) Items nobody wants become cheaper. You could thusly increase the money everybody gets from grinding and such.
d) Item marketplaces. People can buy and sell and auction items at prices they set. For realism, let 'em setup shops and rent space for their shop and such. You skim a floating percentage off the top for auctions, you get money from rented spaces for shops. This lets you reduce available money in the realm at a fairly steady but adjustable pace.

This gives you enough ability to balance the realm financially. Basically, everybody should be able to do things as real-world-like as possible, but you must keep an overriding finger on it to avoid rapid inflationary actions. You'd need to know, at all times, how much cash and how much product/services are in the realm, and try to keep them balanced, even with players leaving and joining and such.

Re:Grind; buying money (2, Interesting)

Frumply (999178) | more than 7 years ago | (#18023262)

FFXI is actually VERY non-item reliant from an equipment POV, in the leveling phase anyway. The level system of the player works so that an extra status boost from a 'rare' item adds little to nothing of value. That's not to say that powerful gears don't exist, but the vast majority of those are raid drops that bind on pickup, and they don't come into play until you approach level75, FFXI's level cap. Hell, for most players the level 50~60 'artifact' armor will last them for the rest of the game. If anything, the problem may be pressure from other players in a leveling party to get better gear -- which is also a non-issue, as the player population in the mid-levels is next to nonexistent.

As of late, Square's also been relatively good at slightly lower-quality replacements to some of the more powerful gear, drops of which ARE being monopolized by the gold farmers. In many servers, the only way to get a riddill (same attack power as most weapons, except you attack two to three times per turn), byakko pants (the only leg-equipment that increases attack speed by 5%) or a speed belt (a 6% boost) would be through a gold farmer. While these items are all but impossible to get w/o some sort of gil trading, most of them have slightly lower-grade cousins that can be obtained via side-quests.

Consumables are a slightly different matter: accuracy-raising items with a 30minute timer are a virtual necessity to play will cost you ~20K gil a dozen, and if you're playing the ninja job properly it would cost you that much an hour to cast their spells. While equipment can generally be sold off at prices equivalent to the purchasing price, the consumables have no refunds other than in the form of levels for the user -- and not using them will change a player to anywhere between half-as-effective and completely useless. Players grinding for cash can expect to earn ~10K~30K an hour. Mob hunting, fishing and mining are still viable income-earning opportunities, and they're as dry as the rest of the game.

What Square doesn't have is a half-decent game management structure to control goldfarming. They pulled a silly move by not splitting servers by region, forcing US players to start from scratch in a world where there were maxed-out level Japanese players everywhere, most of whom had already taken up most cash-making opportunities. Rampant begging for items and powerleveling ensued, animosity between Japanese and the 'no-skills' US players (how in the hell should we know how to play when the game just came out over here?!) grew almost immediately, and thousands of players decided they needed a shortcut to catch up.

Goldfarmers followed and quickly started filling up game servers to service these new customers; for some reason most farmers were not banned for upwards of a year despite constant report-ins by both the US and JP community, which may have sent further messages to players that purchasing gils is OK. They have just recently come up with a 'Special Task Team' to combat goldfarming, but as far as I've seen the landscape hasn't changed much.

Tried this in Monopoly? (2, Insightful)

svunt (916464) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020418)

Not cheating? Try whipping out your wallet and buying some $500 Monopoly bills off your cousin to pay your rent - and see whether uncle Frank thinks it's a foreign currency trade, or an asshole cheating.

Re:Tried this in Monopoly? (1)

multisync (218450) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020660)

How about offering your cousiin your desert for help paying the rent? Is that cheating?

Re:Tried this in Monopoly? (1)

svunt (916464) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021106)

How about offering your cousiin your desert for help paying the rent? Is that cheating?
Yes, it is. Gaming is an attempt to compete in a closed system with conditions which apply to everyone, and are explicitly stated. Bringing food offers into Monopoly, which has no food, is cheating.

Re:Tried this in Monopoly? (1)

pslam (97660) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021878)

Unfortunately the people who buy virtual gold have either all had self-labotomies or nailed their moral compasses to a wall somewhere. This concept is beyond them, and it's extremely frustrating coming up with what would be crystal clear analogies to normal people. They simple do not understand how using factors outside of the game rules/world for your own advancement is cheating.

Metagaming (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022272)

Gaming is an attempt to compete in a closed system
How closed is it? See Metagaming [wikipedia.org] . Examples include card games such as Magic, Pokémon, and Yu-Gi-Oh!: there is a thriving items-for-real-money market in any such game. All the Monopoly example tells you is that the exchange rate between Monopoly money and American money isn't dollar-for-dollar.

Re:Metagaming (1)

svunt (916464) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022434)

Ummm...I don't think I was arguing about metagaming, I said gaming. You could also point to the wiki article about bricklaying to make your point.

Meta-anything (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022580)

Ummm...I don't think I was arguing about metagaming, I said gaming.
I was disagreeing with your "closed system" assertion. All attempts to become a closed system run the risk of being vulnerable to metagaming. In fact, any activity can be subject to its own meta-activity.

Re:Meta-anything (1)

svunt (916464) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022604)

So what you're adding to the debate with "anything can become meta-anything" is .... nothing at all.

In practice (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022686)

So what you're adding to the debate with "anything can become meta-anything" is .... nothing at all.
What I'm adding is that in practice, persistent gaming is not as much a closed system as you make it out to be. In practice, people play not only the game but also the metagame that goes with it. If the developers of a large-scale game use only legal action to ban some activity, yet the players disagree with the ban, then circumventing measures that support the ban becomes part of the game that people actually play.

Re:In practice (1)

svunt (916464) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022766)

ok, so your response to 'yes it's cheating' is 'cheating is part of the game'. You're not actually arguing against my point, really. Yes, it's cheating, or you can call it metagaming. This has its problems, though...according to the wiki article you linked, metagaming includes watching a player play before you sit down at the table, giving you a tatical advantage. So I find the term unconstructive, as you've just taken something that's clearly cheating and redefined it in into the moral grey area of metagaming. It remains cheating, and cheating remains a form of metagaming. So?

Re:In practice (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#18023000)

The definition of cheating varies from person to person. If the movie studios had their way, selling a used DVD might be considered cheating. The problem with MMOGs with endemic gold farming is that the structure of the game encourages what the admins call cheating.

Re:Metagaming (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022846)

Just because it's not written down doesn't mean it's not a social rule. Bribing someone with real money to give you an advantage in a game will make the other players angry. In MMOGs making people angry gets you banned.

Re:Tried this in Monopoly? (1)

all_the_names_are_ta (957291) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021928)

This problem can be solved by offering cash to Uncle Frank as well.

Re:Grind; buying money (1)

Merusdraconis (730732) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020520)

"In practice, a lot of games are poorly tuned for casual players, who want to see the high-level content without having to take a pay cut to grind hours a day."

Or, apparently, without having to see the lower-level content.

Re:Grind; buying money (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020586)

In practice, a lot of games are poorly tuned for casual players, who want to see the high-level content without having to take a pay cut to grind hours a day.
Or, apparently, without having to see the lower-level content.
Except the game designers seem to want the players to repeat lower-level content hundreds of times before the later content is unlocked. What is the gaming equivalent of a DVD player's fast-forward button?

Re:Grind; buying money (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022872)

Don't play MMORPGs if you don't like repetition. There's literally thousands of other games coming out every year. Is it so hard to look for a game where you don't have to repeat the same content over and over again instead of playing a repetitive game with others and pissing those others off by behaving in an unacceptable way?

Re:Grind; buying money (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#18023044)

Is it so hard to look for a game where you don't have to repeat the same content over and over again instead of playing a repetitive game with others and pissing those others off by behaving in an unacceptable way?
Yes. Which MMOGs don't involve unnecessary repetition? Or why is unnecessary repetition inherent in MMOGs?

Re:Grind; buying money (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 7 years ago | (#18023288)

Which MMOGs don't involve unnecessary repetition?

Second Life?

Or why is unnecessary repetition inherent in MMOGs?

Because making a game you play for months without involving repetition is way too expensive?

Re:Grind; buying money (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18021276)

Is buying yen with USD cheating? If not, then why is buying gil with USD cheating?
--
If your answer to Ask Slashdot is "ask a lawyer", then the question is "what should I know before talking to a lawyer?"


The conversion rate. Ask a lawyer.

Re:Grind; buying money (1)

pslam (97660) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021764)

In theory, yes. In practice, a lot of games are poorly tuned for casual players, who want to see the high-level content without having to take a pay cut to grind hours a day.

Is buying yen with USD cheating? If not, then why is buying gil with USD cheating?

Ah, the typical extremely poor logical argument of the virtual industry user. No, they are NOT the same thing at all and you cannot draw those analogies.

MMORPGs are *based* around a big grind, and if you don't like it you shouldn't be playing the game. If you don't enjoy it, you shouldn't be playing the game. People that do the big grind get rewarded - their advancement is a mark of how much they have played.

Why is buying gold cheating? Because it's against the game rules. Why is it against the game rules? BECAUSE THE DAMN RULES TELL YOU THAT. That's not the case for every MMORPG (e.g Sony et al), but for the vast majority there are great big notices and clamp-downs all over the place to remind you that this is the case. You must have missed them.

A better analogy is this: say you were on a treasure hunt (the fun kids party kind, not the pirate kind), and you got a token for each thing you found. What you are saying is that it's completely OK for you to just buy the tokens off the other people and not actually take part in the game yourself. That's the kind of person that uses the virtual industry. Cheaters.

The sad fact is the people who use them have nailed their moral compass down in order make the appropriate illogical leaps that make it "ok" in their mind. "I don't have time to play the game" is the typical and extremely laughable attempt that most make to give themselves a feel-good about their actions. Here's a clue: you STILL aren't playing the game.

Re:Grind; buying money (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18021994)

I have played a lot of WoW and I have bought a lot of gold online. Why? Because it lets me enjoy the parts of the game I want and skip the parts I don't like.

Say I wanted an epic mount. I could spend many, many hours farming enough gold for that. It would be boring as hell and I'd hate it. What I didn't have was WoW gold and what I had lots of was IRL gold (also known as money). WoW gold is very cheap. It would take me many hours to farm as much gold as I could get by working for one hour, and on top of that, I like my job a lot more than I like farming in WoW. Basically, I was earning the equivalent of about $0.30 PER HOUR FARMING. I was doing something I hated doing and getting paid $0.30 per hour doing it.

So I asked myself: Do I want to keep doing something I hate for $0.30 per hour? The answer to that question was obvious to me.

MMORPGs are *based* around a big grind, and if you don't like it you shouldn't be playing the game.
I'm sorry, but that decision is really not for you to make. I absolutely love the PvP in WoW and I hate the farming. Time is the only thing here in life you can't get more of, so I paid someone else to farm for me. I don't feel bad about that at all, like I said this lets me enjoy the parts of the game I like and avoid the parts I don't, so your statement is about as valid as "If you don't like role-playing, you shouldn't be playing an MMORPG!" Lots of people like MMORPGs, yet hate role-playing. I don't go around telling those people that if they don't role-play, they shouldn't be playing WoW. Instead, I respect that everyone's different and let them play the game the way they like. WoW is a huge game, so it's easy to find areas you like and areas you dislike.

If someone only likes PvP, let them PvP. If some people only likes questing, let them quest. If some people only like the high-level stuff, let them do the high-level stuff. Basically, it's not for you or me to decide how other people play the game, after all they're paying just as much as we are every single month to play it.

With a game as huge as WoW, you can't expect every single person to like every single part of it. If someone only has an hour to play per week and doesn't want to waste that hour doing something he hates, I certainly can't blame him and again, it's not for you or me to decide how someone else plays a game, especially considering that this is a game they pay every single month to play.

Because buying yen is legal.... (1)

Bazar (778572) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022432)

Is buying yen with USD cheating? If not, then why is buying gil with USD cheating?

Buying yen isn't illegal, the Chinese government is well aware that their money is sold in such ways, and supports such transactions.
Buying gil however, is cheating, the game developers are aware of it, denounce it, and take disciplinary action against such accounts proven to be selling gil.

Its pretty simple to see that buying money is cheating, anyone who thinks otherwise, is just too cowardly to accept the truth.

I know of plenty of online friends who purchased online money in the MMORPG i play, at least they all knew and accepted that they were cheating by doing so.

Sakoku (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022600)

Buying yen isn't illegal, the Chinese government is well aware that their money is sold in such ways
Yen != yuan, but for a long time, Japan practiced isolation [wikipedia.org] .

Buying gil however, is cheating, the game developers are aware of it, denounce it, and take disciplinary action against such accounts proven to be selling gil.
Why does the action so reactive (discipline), not proactive (in-game measures to make money farming less profitable)?

Its pretty simple to see that buying money is cheating, anyone who thinks otherwise, is just too cowardly to accept the truth.
You haven't shown any evidence that the action taken in MMOGs is more justified than action taken on soil in this reality.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

Alicat1194 (970019) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020032)

Because humans are, by nature, a lazy species. Why spend all that time grinding to get gold, when you can just buy it? (Personally, I don't think that way, but I can understand why some do).

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (4, Insightful)

Sparr0 (451780) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020104)

The game has two distinct parts. The unfun part, which is artificially long to keep the people with lots of free time occupied long enough to pay another $15 next month, and the fun part. Paying to get to the fun part is only cheating if it gives you some sort of advantage in the context of the competition, which it doesnt. The only way buying gold could be cheating is if you consider the competitive parts of the game to be a measure of how much time people have invested in the game. If you want to know how good someone is at the fun part of the game, how they got there doesn't matter.

No, you can NOT make the steroids analogy, because steroids give advantages that you cant get through normal exercise, and the context of physical competitions makes the exercise PART of the competition.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020196)

So you've bought gold then?

Thank you for making my point though, you clearly don't want to play a game if you believe that it has unfun parts. buy the way the "fun part" that amounts to hours and hours of repetition of raid content (as opposed to repetition of grind content) and often to short or lopsided PvP is not nearly as fun as the newbie with a disposable income would like to believe. Games should be about the journey more than the destination (I admit that this is often not the case and it's a shame).

Again if you can't be bothered to go through the game (even at your own pace) what is the point? for a years subscription fees and $50-$100 in farmer gold I could get a really nice plaque that says "I beat WoW" to hang on the wall and it means just as much as getting power leveled past 90% of the game and buying gold.

It's still cheating even if you don't harm anyone but yourself by doing it, is paying the kid across the street to finish a sodoku puzzle for you so you can impress your friends any different?

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

Sparr0 (451780) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020246)

For the record, I sold gold. And Everquest plat. Made a lot of people happier, and me quite a bit wealthier.

Some people actually enjoy WoW raiding, or PVP. Most people do not enjoy grinding. The intersection is where gold buyers come from, or even account buyers.

As to the sudoku... It's cheating if you tell your friends that you have finished a sudoku. It's not cheating if you tell your friends that you have a finished sudoku.

A sort of 'litmus test' I like to use for game cheating... If training your pet monkey to do something for you isn't cheating, then accomplishing the same something any other way is also not cheating. This applies to botting, buying gold, etc.

When I say we are going to have a race in the park, the race is the competition. How you get there isnt. Paying someone to drive you there instead of running to the race is not cheating.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (2, Insightful)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020252)

You keep telling yourself that.

Never "cheated" in my life- 7 years in EQ on one character in a major raiding guild (GM's say probably the oldest in the game).

I think the games are absolutely rigged to favor people with unlimited play hours. In the old days- I went 2 years without even seeing a lot of mobs since they spawned and were killed between 1pm and 3pm. I "cheated" by spending the money to go to a game convention and bend the designers ears about that and suggest a random spawn interval. When they implemented that it actually resulted in some of the older guilds breaking up since they were no longer guaranteed of targets to pick and choose from (so the game became "unfun" for them).

Unless they bring out a game where you are limited to 10 hours a week on a server, then anything you want to do to balance out the unfair advantage of unlimited play time (i.e. no job- rich, parents support them, in college (and failing most likely)) is fine by me.

Likewise, unless they have a way to stop multi-boxing (which is impossible) you are always going to face people who don't struggle like you do because they have 3 characters and always have a group.

Finally, many of the people in the winning guilds in EQ and WOW have massive cheating programs that interpret the data streams so they know exactly what mobs are up and what visable items they are carrying (as well as even automatically hunt and kill monsters in an area) via macroing.

So sure... try to play a "fair" game and see what it gets you.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

ady1 (873490) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021090)

Games are never designed to be fair. They are designed to be fun.

Still I can agree with you partially. I myself sometimes cheat when the things start to get repetitive (to get to the fun part) however I seldom cheat to beat the tough boss/portion (even humans enemies with unfair advantage can be fun to beat).

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

Chatterton (228704) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022348)

I play WoW since the Beta. I play 4 characters depending of witch of my brothers is online. I just got my main character to lvl 60 mid January this year (druid specialized in healing). I love the role-play part, helping other to finish quests, wandering to see interesting places... . But grinding is not my 'fun' part, first because I dislike grinding and second it is nearly impossible with my healer (A single mob of the same level as me kick out my ass). I got my mount at lvl 48 and not 40 because I haven't got enough gold to buy it and it is 'just' 100 gold. I am mostly equipped with lvl 50 green items I have dropped while I helped others. I haven't enough time to do raids dungeons multiple time to hope winning the interesting item, and certainly not enough gold to buy new ones. I repeat, the game is fun for me, but I cherish more and more and more the idea to buy some gold from a gold farmer...

In SWG I played a medic too, but the crafting part of the game made it more sustainable because with it I could make some good money to buy things and not grinding them. For me the grinding was in an other way, as it was to find 'THE' resource that I could use to make 'THE' best components I can or exchanging it for other components I need. But they changed some important rules in the game (not in the crafting part) making it no more interesting for me. SWG has the best crafting mechanics I ever see. And crafted item were better than dropped ones.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime (1)

El_Muerte_TDS (592157) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021990)

Or rather, if you don't have time to play a particular game in order to reach a certain level then play an other game that does fit your schedule.
Nobody is forcing you to play that game.

Keeping up with the Joneses (1)

ricree (969643) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020116)

I imagine that it isn't about the game itself for at least a good portion of the buyers. Don't underestimate the importance that status has on the way people act. Is it really any different than the more extreme grinders? Are they really playing for fun, or are they playing to have the best/newest stuff in game? In the end, does it make a difference whether people do it by grinding or by buying gold? Either way, they are working to try and gain more in game prestige.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (4, Insightful)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020174)

Well, if you have 3 hours a week to play but you make $300 an hour, it only makes sense to pay $600 for a character suitable for the "cool" parts of the game.

Likewise, if camping the sword of uberness would take 59 hours or you can buy it for $177 dollars (1/2 hour of your time), the decision is easy.

Why spend 200 hours of your life killing rats and weak monsters (oh the incredible fun) when you can just start at 20th level for 100 bucks?

If those 200 hours were entertaining- maybe. But typically they are insanely mindless grinding with no fun factor at all.

In fact, most folks power level in some fashion once they get one character up to a decent level even tho it reduces the "fun".

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020232)

I'm sorry I nether make $300 an hour or have 40+ hours to play games in a week but I would like to play a game where everyone is subject to the same rules (no buying gold for one) I don't care if you like the easy road, if all you want is a message that says "you win" I'd be happy to email you one and save you a ton of time.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (2, Insightful)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020284)

Subject to the same rules.

LOL

The designer's personally observe the uber guilds and give them tips on encounters for cripe's sake.

We are all subject to so many different rules that your use of the term is completely meaningless.

Saying a person can't use money is completely arbitrary on your part unless you also include multi-boxing, macro programs, data-stream programs, being supported by the state or parents so you can play unlimited hours, and being on the east coast (so you get all the best camps first).

For the record, I've never done any of that or bought gold and I don't have a problem if anyone does that compared to all the other crappy things people do all the time.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

WNight (23683) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022624)

If all you want is an email saying that lazy people aren't being allowed to have any fun, I'll provide one.

If I played WoW, I wouldn't be competing with you. I might choose to buy a fancy character, or grind my own, but either way it not like I'll be taking a prize from you, just playing the same game. I can see that if there was a prize, you'd want someone who didn't play not to win it, for playing. That would be annoying.

I dislike MMOs (the MM part) so this isn't likely to happen, especially with all the censorship crap Sony, Blizzard, and now Eve's company all partake in. But, in single-player I cheat like crazy. I played a bit of Oblivion, but the game sucks. Seriously 3/10. So I added a ton of mods, some made it harder, some easier, but they all screwed with the rules. Then I played Gothic3. Wow, another stink-fest. It crashed so much and (honestly) took three minutes to QUICKLOAD I gave up and god-moded through the last 95% of the game because I was a bit curious about the story...

I feel those who base their success on that of others (everyone who competes against others, for "fun" (ie, not the stock market)) are a bit sick. If you can't enjoy yourself without worrying that I might be enjoying myself too much, comparative to the work I've put in, you could have a problem.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022816)

You know what... I don't care if you cheat or not.

Cheating to get "ahead" in a game (multiplayer that is, I could give a crap what you do by yourself) is foolish and wasteful in my opinion. Everyone I have ever met that bought in game items quit soon after because they grew tired of the game quickly after they had all the stuff they wanted. In my experience all cheating does is cheapen whatever you are trying to do and discourage those who try to play the game legitimately, so while it may not effect me directly I still don't condone it as it detracts from everyone's fun to have to put up with the kind of dissatisfaction cheating creates for everyone.

In fact I believe that having to buy anything outside of the initial purchase (and subscription where appropriate) to "enjoy a game" is a big waste. Take the Xbox Live market place for example, I have no problem with the idea of digitally distributed games and additional content (like more game to play) but I object to the idea of paying a dollar for extra lives or in game money especially in a single player game.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

pslam (97660) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021846)

Likewise, if camping the sword of uberness would take 59 hours or you can buy it for $177 dollars (1/2 hour of your time), the decision is easy.


No, you camp the sword of uberness. Buying it with dollars is cheating.

Why spend 200 hours of your life killing rats and weak monsters (oh the incredible fun) when you can just start at 20th level for 100 bucks?


Because it's cheating, and because I'm fed up of seeing high level players who haven't got a clue how to play the game because they basically skipped the introductory levels. You're probably one of them I'm guessing.

If those 200 hours were entertaining- maybe. But typically they are insanely mindless grinding with no fun factor at all.


Your logical leap relies on using your shitty and deliberately misleading examples. It does not take 200 hours to get through 1/3rd of levelling. It does not involve killing rats except for maybe level 1 and 2, and that's with damn good reason - beginners need something they can actually achieve. If you're not a beginner you get through that crap in about 15 minutes. If you find grinding not fun (and it can be fun) then you shouldn't be playing the game. Hello, this is an MMORPG for fuck's sake.

In fact, most folks power level in some fashion once they get one character up to a decent level even tho it reduces the "fun".


Again, your choice of words leads to your illogical leaps. The trem "power levelling" here is used to denigrate the act of grinding your way to high levels or items. What you are describing is PLAYING THE GAME.


What you need to realise is that you stopped playing the game, and the virtual gold blackmarket is laughing at you all the way to the bank. You bought the game, you paid your fees, and now you pay them money so you don't have to play it? Do you not see what's wrong with you?

Are you completely retarded? (1)

humberthumbert (104950) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021856)

If those "3 hours" are put aside as leisure time, guess what, you weren't going to work anyway! Why should your
hourly wage come into the equation?

    And what with this "I make $X/hr, therefore I am too important to spend Xhr on something like levelling up meme"?

    Do you make $X/hr when you are asleep? In the shower? Driving?

    You should look up what "billable hours" mean.

Re:Are you completely retarded? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18022354)

If those "3 hours" are put aside as leisure time, guess what, you weren't going to work anyway! Why should your
hourly wage come into the equation?

And what with this "I make $X/hr, therefore I am too important to spend Xhr on something like levelling up meme"?

Do you make $X/hr when you are asleep? In the shower? Driving?

You should look up what "billable hours" mean.


There are two ways of looking at it, and both come to the same conclusion. One is that I can spend those three hours grinding, ending up with gold worth $117. Or I could spend those three hours doing something just as boring - i.e. working overtime (or, for those who have a job they like, doing something much more fun), ending up with a value of $900, and then spend $117 buying the gold.

The other way is to look at the spare time. Sparetime is a limited ressource, and spending it grinding would waste three hours. What are those three hours worth? They are worth what it would cost to buy more spare time, i.e. taking three hours off from work. Under this way of thought, those three hours just cost me $300. Buying the same gold would only cost me $117.

In both cases, it comes down to a monetary value of $117 vs. $300. That is, $300 vs. $117 to get to the fun part of the game. You know, FUN, the reason for playing the game in the first place.

The problem is that game producers are trying to make games last for a couple of months, even for those who play 14 hours every day. Putting that much fun into a game would cost huge amounts of money, so instead the game developers put lots of not fun (aka. work) into games, to make them last longer. For those of us who have a job, and play maybe two hours per week, this means that the grinding between two bits of fun is going to take months.

Most of us aren't going to spend months grinding just to get to the next fun part. Thus there are two options: Buying our way from one fun part to the next, or throwing the game in the bin. Not because there aren't any fun in the game, but because the developers deliberately put so much not fun in between the fun parts, just to make the game take longer for the 13 year olds.

This is not just WoW (or Final Fantasy Xwhatever). Just about every MMORPG does this. Gran Turismo does this. Lots of games do it, some call it "levelling up", others call it "unlockables". Personally I'm getting to the point where I'm not planning on buying any more of those games. Not because they are not fun (they are), but because I don't want to work 50 hours, in addition to the time I already worked to pay for the game itself, before I can actually START PLAYING the fun parts.

Re:Are you completely retarded? (1)

humberthumbert (104950) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022664)

> You know, FUN, the reason for playing the game in the first place.

    And that's what makes me so mad about the whole virtual currency deal.
Games are meant to be fun. Many hardcore gamers tend to forget that and
absolutely have to "win". So the rest of us have to put up with Punkbuster
and rampant virtual inflation because of these jackasses.

>The problem is that game producers are trying to make games last for
>a couple of months, even for those who play
>14 hours every day. Putting that much fun into a game would cost huge
>amounts of money

    I agree that developers are largely to blame for the sorry state of games
right now. However, I don't think it's reasonable to expect much more content
from MMORPGs. There's only so much manpower that can be thrown into creating new content.

    Instead, give the gamers the tools of creation. Something like Second Life. Shift the
focus away from merely procuring items and levelling up. Encourage volunteer DMs and
give them the ability to insert their own quests.

    Stop nerfing MMORPGs, in general. No more banks where your gold is safe. At least, no
more banks which can't be robbed. Magic weapons should last 10 charges and break after
that, so that it means something when you see someone wielding a flame sword in battle.

    No more teleportation. There should be plagues. Natural diasters. Climate changes.
Weathering effects on weapons and armor and items. And none of that "fixing" shit either.
If half your helmet is melted, it's gone, until you can find an armorer.

    Make metals something rare, like they really were in the past. Want to make a new
sword? You'll have to scrap together the metal and pray that you find an armorer
with the skills to forge a decent sword. No more of that Walmart shit.

    Supply carts with raw materials and gold should be assailable.

    That's the way I would do things in an MMORPG.

>This is not just WoW (or Final Fantasy Xwhatever). Just about every
>MMORPG does this. Gran Turismo does this. Lots of games do it, some call
>it "levelling up", others call it "unlockables". Personally I'm getting to
>the point where I'm not planning on buying any more of those games.

  You're doing the right thing. No point wasting money on console games especially. Fucktards don't
seem to understand the concept of "save anywhere".

  Why not try out some adventure games? I'm playing Grim Fandango now and it's a blast. And
there are tons of good adventure games you can find in the bargain bins these days.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020198)

Also there is this.

Unemployed guy- or chinese guy who can live on 60 cents an hour can afford to play 16 hours a day so they "win" hands down every time.

But... you can step into a winning position for 700 bucks and join a guild doing high end content.

If you don't, you will never make it on top of a real job and family.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020650)

Who cares? Its easy dough for me. :)

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

jenxdigital (1056298) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022898)

Between game guides that come out either the day of, or shortly after, game releases, websites dedicated to game cheats, accessories like Game Shark (and the like)....there is so much opportunity to NOT actually play the game, it almost seems like more people play the game just to win, rather than to, oh, I don't know, play the game. I'm not saying that everyone should sit all day and just play video games, because, between "bedsores", muscle atrophy, and abnormal social skills, it's yet another thing kids don't need to make life harder for them outside the house. But, I remember, back in the day, how f'ing proud I was to know that I could, all by myself, complete the whole game of Legend of Zelda without my big brother to help me. I was 8. And, now, I find myself tsking when my kid brother, now 12, can't deal with his FPS game long enough to learn how to strafe, duck, crouch, or run in game...so, let's get a cheat that makes me invincible! Yay! That just took ALL of the skill out of the game!! *sigh* It's not about honest gaming anymore. I think there are a whole 15 people on the planet that do that anymore.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 7 years ago | (#18023078)

Finally someone who sees what I am talking about.

When I was much younger I did cheat at games, but I learned that is wasn't any fun to just zip through a game... the fun part of a game is overcoming the challenges it presents.

I don't dare tell other people on the internet how to behave but I do kind of fell sorry for someone who has never had the satisfaction of beating a game without any help or playing through an MMO without using the services of a farmer.

Re:When did we stop playing these games? (1)

jenxdigital (1056298) | more than 7 years ago | (#18023202)

Yup. Especially when it comes to RPG's (usually what I play)...it's like the difference between reading an awesome book, and renting the movie. And then taking a test on it. Sure, the movie gives you the gist of it, but you don't experience it the same as you would have if you had immersed yourself completely into the pages. Or, maybe I'm just one of those weird chicks that reads too much and plays too many RPG's. Yeah, probably that one.

ebay hasn't delisted all virtual property (2, Interesting)

Adult film producer (866485) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020044)

yet... I went browsing today and found that the kingdom of loathing items were still available (even an auction up near $800 for a virtual outfit in the game..)

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=b s&sbrftog=1&from=R10&satitle=kingdom+of+loathing [ebay.com]

guess it's just a matter of time before they find everything out.. too bad ebay execs are a bunch of anal fucks.

Re:ebay hasn't delisted all virtual property (2, Insightful)

rm999 (775449) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020760)

"too bad ebay execs are a bunch of anal fucks."

If I owned stock in ebay, I would sell it. I seriously don't trust them with any sort of common-sense, monetary decisions. Why does every great company start out so cool, and then end up succumbing to business school morons who drive the company into the ground with their lack of intelligence and overconfidence?

that will be interesting.... (1)

President_Camacho (1063384) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020048)

The company, Sparter, says this eBay-like "peer-to-peer" approach will result in lower prices as sellers compete. It incorporates a reputation system and escrow for gold delivery.

I'm interested to see how this "reputation system" will work any better than ebay's feedback system, which is easily foiled by scammers boosting each others' ratings, and phishing schemes that poach pre-existing accounts with positive feedback.

Tax (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18020070)

Umm, how will the govt get it's cut? The moment you try to to exchange this for something physical expect the gubment to want its cut.

That's why taxes should be a flat amount (not percent).

Think of the huge level of cancer like privacy intrusion they will ask for in order to implement a tax on virtual payemnts. Are people ok with it?

Nothing new (1)

basslineshift (564949) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020258)

These have been around for years. Sites like www.OwnYourGame.com [ownyourgame.com] have been selling virtual currency and other items for some time.

Cutting out the Chinese (4, Insightful)

Duncan3 (10537) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020276)

Game companies are FURIOUS at the farmers, not because they do what they do, but because they can't figure out how to cut them out and just charge for each level or item in the game without losing players. Most companies are probably setting up fake front companies to do it, because there is now far more money in the farming then in hosting the game.

Any game with the X dollars/month pricing model is guaranteed to be tedious, boring, and unsuitable for anyone with a life or a clue. Heck even idiots should see through it. Which is perfect, since that means it keeps the 1/3 of kids that drop out of high school off the streets! :)

Welcome to virtual reality, please insert your credit card.

Trolling for points rating: 4 (0, Flamebait)

GodInHell (258915) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020434)

Any game with the X dollars/month pricing model is guaranteed to be tedious, boring, and unsuitable for anyone with a life or a clue. Heck even idiots should see through it. Which is perfect, since that means it keeps the 1/3 of kids that drop out of high school off the streets! :)


Tangential relation to topic absent actual linkage to the article.
Overbroad statement sure to atract attention from indignant games
Stupid kids joke
Generic - traditional companies == bad comment.

4 points.. not bad.

-GiH

Re:Cutting out the Chinese (2, Insightful)

pslam (97660) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021804)

Game companies are FURIOUS at the farmers, not because they do what they do, but because they can't figure out how to cut them out and just charge for each level or item in the game without losing players. Most companies are probably setting up fake front companies to do it, because there is now far more money in the farming then in hosting the game.


I see this horse crap churned out every time there's a discussion about the virtual gold blackmarket. It's not true. It's boring seeing everyone cut and paste this response as if cynics of the world have all somehow come to agreement that it's reality.


Show us some damn evidence rather than just stupid slander.

other sites (1)

rpgSE (1064392) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020608)

PlayerAuctions is owned by IGE and it is always broken. They do not want to fix the site it seems. There are tons of other sites out there that allow players to buy and sell, some all trading of in game gold for game cards so you can keep playing (www.MMOExchange.com) while others just track all the prices (www.rpgSE.com) Either way eBay needs to look into changing their policies and paypal needs to help protect their customers from the infinate scammers out there dealing with virtual coin.

Re:other sites (2, Informative)

rpgSE (1064392) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020640)

PlayerAuctions is owned by IGE and it is always broken. They do not want to fix the site it seems. There are tons of other sites out there that allow players to buy and sell, some all trading of in game gold for game cards so you can keep playing http://www.mmoexchange.com/ [mmoexchange.com] while others just track all the prices http://www.rpgse.com/ [rpgse.com] Either way eBay needs to look into changing their policies and paypal needs to help protect their customers from the infinate scammers out there dealing with virtual coin.

Could someone please inform these guys... (1)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020680)

...that outside of the known games (and areas thereof) where it is permitted, it is a violation of the agreements made to use such services? This would be better served as a nice large honeypot that bans sellers and buyers while outing the actual farmers as well. It would be better to let the signals go unsuppressed to quit or not than to facilitate agreement violations.

If you wanted to sell Lindens, Entropia cash, and Sony Station currency, fine. However, breaking agreements to expand the horizons is not. I've killed too many bots already and collected too much loot from them to just be idle on this one.

Re:Could someone please inform these guys... (1)

GodInHell (258915) | more than 7 years ago | (#18020870)

Oddly enough.. EULA's don't have the full force of law behind them.. thus little things like compelling compliance to requests for user data are beyond the companies seeking to find the users who are selling/buying gold. Combine this with unanswered questions concerning a user's limited property rights (including the right to sell and trade) and these sites are perfectly legit - actually they will probably prompt some baddly needed test cases.

The actual effect on game play is little (no) different from getting set up with a big guild - which is fine by any of the major's EULA's. I know some folks have a problem with cash affecting power balance in game - but those are issues for ethics and society that exceed the limits of the game univers - rich people have the advantadge in nearly every facet of life - from employment choice, to education, and even healthcare. You can't prevent a person with an economic advantadge from leveriging that advantadge -- practically speaking it just dosen't work. Let's at least sheath it in a commonly understood law so we're all dancing to the same tune.

-GiH

Re:Could someone please inform these guys... (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021634)

However, breaking agreements to expand the horizons is not.

      So, the owner of a company that provides a place to trade game cash but doesn't play the game him/herself isn't bound by any agreement.

why ebay stopped, what we need to change (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18021656)

(the following is opinion and not in any way shaped by fact :)

I think ebay stopped because of the legal and up and coming tax issues associated with buying/selling virtual items/money.

For game makers who don't allow that kind of thing, ebay was probably about to become a target if it hadn't been already. I don't remember seeing any grand scale attacks on it yet but I don't doubt they were on their way.

Also, now that the government (at least in the u.s. ) has decided to look into it's own cut of the deal there's going to be even more difficulties.

I have felt and still feel that we need to change this attitude that people who buy and sell for real cash are bad people. They aren't bad. They aren't evil. They are not your enemy. They just see their games in a different way.

The reason this stuff is so rampant on normal servers is because blizzard and now whatever-you-call-it who runs vanguard REFUSE to give this type of playerbase what they want. THEIR OWN SEPERATE SERVERS on which buying and selling is legal. (as in, within the rules of the owners of the game)

People who don't want that, stick to normal servers with normal crackdowns and so on. People who want to buy and sell, play on the ones where they won't get banned for it.

People who complain about people playing on the buy/sell-legal servers are, in my opinion, idiots.

What strikes me as funny is that eq2 allows this, probably makes money from it (they get 10% from every transaction) surely enough to pay for the website and customer service involved and yet other games still refuse.

Why would you refuse to give your customers what they want without effecting other customers AND profit from it???

Re:why ebay stopped, what we need to change (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18021784)

'Why would you refuse to give your customers what they want without effecting other customers AND profit from it???'
Because as a potential customer with a comfortable income, I only want a game that doesn't look like real life.
Life is unfair enough, a game should not.
And that's why I dropped any will to play any of these online game where unfair is the rule.
Same rules for everyone. Period.
I played for many, many years on a mud, being at the point where I could point out any flaws in the balance, and proving it.
People had items given by the imp you couldn't get without sucking their cock.
And I think many more people dropped online gaming because of the rampant cheating than people start playing because they could cheat.
Blizzard is all about keeping people paying month after month.
Remember when a player leaves because of the cheating once or twice, it's not only a blizzard customer they lose.
They lose an online game customer, and most likely forever.

A company based on breaking agreements? (1)

pslam (97660) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021790)

Either that or it's only going to apply to games where virtual gold selling is OK, of which there are very few, strangely enough because people got sick of them.

So this is a company that exists just to let people break the game rules? Ignoring EULAs (which are dubious), this is basically just cheating central for people that don't want to play the game. A central place for all the griefers to ruin the game some more for the rest of us. Sickening.

Perhaps it's a good thing because the MMORPG companies can just spider that website and ban all the people they find!

4dolL (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18021870)

At my freelance Don't walk around distributions YO`U HAVE A PLAY

Virtual currency is utter bullshit (1)

humberthumbert (104950) | more than 7 years ago | (#18021888)

When your "assets" can be arbitrarily erased by the company that is holding them, only the truly foolish will see value in making a business out of trading virtual currency.

    Oh, I know -- the standard smartass retort to the above is:

    "But your money in the bank doesn't actually exist either! It's all make-believe!"

    To that, all I have to say is that there are many laws and regulations governing real world currency and stocks. There are checks and balances in place to such that my bank can't simply decide to erase my funds.

    Of course, there are still cases of fraud and whatnot, but when you compare MMORPGs to the real world:

    1. If the USD becomes worthless tomorrow, there will probably be more ,ass hysteria, chaos, depression and
          iminent war.

    2. If WoW gold becomes worthless tomorrow, BFD.

    And that, is why virtual currency is bullshit.

Re:Virtual currency is utter bullshit (1)

Shrubber (552857) | more than 7 years ago | (#18023276)

And that, is why virtual currency is bullshit.
Being bullshit doesn't make it have any less value. Something is worth what people are willing to pay, that is how Capitalism works. It doesn't matter what the item for sale is, or isn't, if it has value to someone it is worth something.

On the subject of advancing in games (1)

Disstress (928999) | more than 7 years ago | (#18022530)

For all of you that do buy in game currency, I am able to offer services outside of the MMO market. You can pay me to come beat Candyland, Stratego, Clue, and Monopoly for you. I also offer competitive rates for beating Super Mario Brothers 1-3 for you.
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