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Godwin's Law Invoked in Linus/Gnome Spat

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the can't-the-nazis-stay-out-of-just-one-internet-argument dept.

GNOME 828

lisah writes "The flame wars between Linus Torvalds and the GNOME community continue to burn. Responding to Torvalds' recent claim that GNOME 'seems to be developed by interface Nazis' and that its developers believe their 'users are idiots,' a member of the Linux Foundation's Desktop Architects mailing list suggested that Torvalds use GNOME for a month before making such pronouncements. Torvalds, never one to back down from a challenge, simply turned around and submitted patches to GNOME and then told the list, '...let's see what happens to my patches. I guarantee you that they actually improve the code.' After lobbing that over the fence, Torvalds concluded his comments by saying, 'Now the question is, will people take the patches, or will they keep their heads up their arses and claim that configurability is bad, even when it makes things more logical, and code more readable.'" Linux.com and Slashdot are both owned by OSTG.

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828 comments

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Links to the patches? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18048796)

Anyone have direct links to the patches?

Interface Nazis. (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18048800)

I'll tell you who are Interface Nazis. The developers for software that ends with an 'imp' and starts with a 'G'.

But seriously, folks, regarding this article, I don't give what most political pundits or academic scholars would term a "flying fuck."

Re:Interface Nazis. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049166)

Dont use or support GIMP.

Dont even talk about GIMP, thats advertising it for them. Let it ROT.

Gimp dont support their users, so I dont support Gimp :) Simple enough.

Same goes for any product, open source or not, software or not. If you dont like it, dont buy/use it. Is personal self control that difficult?

Linux needs more than an interface overhaul, it needs a complete rework from the ground up IMHO.

Linus like most developers have an EGO problem. That is their undoing, and why I want out of software development, I am sick and tired of the mess it has become with egomainiacs.

Please take care of Linus (5, Insightful)

Reverse Gear (891207) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048804)

I really think that Linus is a cool guy no doubt about that, sending in those patches to the Gnome community sure was the way to prove who is the over-geek here and how to get something done instead of wasting valuable time arguing over something as unimportant as Gnome (pun intented), if Linus is right.

But Linus does really seem to have a bit of an attitude problem at times. Which is many times good if you are a boss for employees, but the problem just is that is not what Linus is, he is the boss of volenteers, they can quit if they don't like their boss.

I can't help but get a little worried, had it been anyone else but Linus I wouldn't mind, let people have their strange ways as long as they do not bother me or anyone else to much.

I am just worried for Linus, I sure hope he does take care of himself and stay mentally fit, that flamewars like the one he appearently had with the Gnome people here does not bring him out of balance somehow.

If Linus somehow gets sick and overloaded then it will lead to a whole lot of mess with the development of the Linux Kernel which really would not be nice.

So please Gnome people start behaving, be humble, accept the patches and do not upset Linus, we really need him, even if he isn't always the nicest person around ;)

Re:Please take care of Linus (5, Funny)

_vSyncBomb (50710) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048816)

You fucking etiquette Nazi. How dare you say that Linus isn't the nicest person around?

Re:Please take care of Linus (2, Insightful)

keeboo (724305) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048820)

If Linus somehow gets sick and overloaded then it will lead to a whole lot of mess with the development of the Linux Kernel which really would not be nice.
So please Gnome people start behaving, be humble, accept the patches and do not upset Linus, we really need him, even if he isn't always the nicest person around ;)

The way you put this, sounds like Torvals has some kind of severe autism.

Re:Please take care of Linus (4, Interesting)

Reverse Gear (891207) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048928)

The way you put this, sounds like Torvals has some kind of severe autism.
I don't know the man, so I can't say if that is true.
HOwever I do think that assuming he has some degree of autism isn't unlikely, I myself suffer from quite serios mental disorders and I seem to find that autism and other mental disorders (or what you like to call them, doesn't matter much) is much more common in "the geek community" than in the world surrounding us.
Probably has a lot to do with that the commputer is really a big help to people like me who have problems handling social situations.

But then again I do not know Linus at all, I just know that he is important to the Linux Kernel and I would like for the kernel to keep on developing, if I have to bow and jump around to please Linus I would do that as I know he is much better at doing what he does than I am and even if I were more skilled being humble and appreciating what Linus has done would let things run more smoothly.

Re:Please take care of Linus (4, Insightful)

John Nowak (872479) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049016)

The way you put this, sounds like Torvals has some kind of severe autism.

Oh please, if Torvalds is autistic, then I'm a borderline pyschopath. People sometimes lose it when typing. I do often. They don't see the other side of the conversation as an actual person. It happens. For example, right now, I want to hit you with a stick. If this were real life, I'd not want to, and I'd have you out for coffee.

Re:Please take care of Linus (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049066)

Asperger's Syndrome [wikipedia.org]

Re:Please take care of Linus (0, Troll)

civilizedINTENSITY (45686) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048880)

Attitude and ego. "Here's a damn big clue: the reason I find GNOME limiting is BECAUSE IT IS." Why? "Because I said so, and I'm the mom, so just shut up and eat your patches, because they are good for you, because I said so, and I guarantee it."

GUI design issues are like fashion. Some people hate plaid. Oh well. Get over it. Emacs/vi, KDE/Gnome, Linux/BSD/Solaris (if Sun really GPLs). Lots of choice, and thats a good thing. I've never understood why Linus had relevance. Has he ever done anything besides the kernel? And this means his preferences for background images should matter to me why?

Re:Please take care of Linus (3, Insightful)

arodland (127775) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048952)

It's not a "fashion" thing. GNOME has recently been explicitly about limiting choices in the name of simplicity, and standardizing in the name of consistency. If you do that, it means that someone who agrees with those choices will be pretty happy, and everyone else will have something to complain about; that goes without saying. The part that's arguably my opinion is that the user that GNOME is evolving to best serve is a complete and utter idiot -- but on the other hand there are a lot of people out there who agree with me. The people developing the standards just don't get it. I don't use GNOME for my desktop, but they're even going so far as to ruin some of my favorite apps by association. It's frustrating. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "hey GNOME guys, step back, take a look at what you're doing. You're not serving real people."

Re:Please take care of Linus (5, Insightful)

DrXym (126579) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049194)

I'm a power user and I really don't have a problem with GNOME. It's simple, straightforward, minimalist and stays the hell out of the way while I do stuff. After all, it is "stuff" that I use the computer for, not to fuck around configuring the desktop.

The thing is (as Linus has demonstrated), is that if you know what you're doing you can add this stuff, or at least drop to the command line or install Konq or Midnight Commander. Virtually every Linux dist has a vast library of tools to use. I do think that GNOME would benefit from some kind of power tools (think TweakUI on windows) or even an advanced mode which exposes more, but making the desktop simple, consistent and easy to use for mere mortals by default is the only way to go.

Anyway GNOME isn't as simple as OS X (for example), yet dare criticize OS X on slashdot and you invoke the wrath of Apple zealots everywhere.

Re:Please take care of Linus (1)

pilsner.urquell (734632) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048920)

To bad Linus can't take the same path as Patrick Volkerding just ignore the Gnome people.

Attitude (4, Interesting)

EmbeddedJanitor (597831) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048944)

There are two parts to attitude.

First off, nice touchy feely people get nothing done. All good OSS projects depend on focussed, and often heavy handed, leadership. Linus might piss and moan about Gnome, but then a lot of people do about Linus too. Linus is effective because he's not democratic. Try send patches that Linus does not like upstream in the kernel. They will get squashed. Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but they should be aware of the cultures they are playing with.

I run an OSS project too, one that is pretty successful. I don't willy-nilly accept patches that I don't like either. I will often take patches and recode them to be the way that I want them to be.

Linus is good. Linus contributes a lot, but untimately that does not give him the right to be a fuckwit in someone elses project, any more than it gives anyone else the right to be a fuckwit in his project.

Roll over and be nice to Linus is a poor way to handle things.

What I don't understand is (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18048954)

How does it happen that when we anonymous coders (or cowards) send patches and complaint about some open source program on a mailing list, it goes relatively unnoticed, and on the opposite side when some guy named Linus Torvalds does the same, he gets lots of attention.

I do not want to sound like jealousy or so but we humans are all equal in rights. But we are not equally famous. So because someone is famous, what he says should have more value?

I believe the Linux kernel is a good piece of software, but that's millions of line of code, Linus wrote only a small part of them. If another coder who wrote a good piece of stable drivers in the Linux kernel said the same thing Linus said, the question is, would this have had any headlines anywhere?

The answer is certainly no.

So that's why I think we should put an end to this Linus stuff. Linus does this, Linus says that... Who cares? Okay he did good things by the past, he does good things today but hey, there are many good developers out there, probably even better ones, and even Linux would survive pretty well without Linus.

Re:What I don't understand is (1)

bro1 (143618) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049082)

Sorry to destroy your rant, but we should listen to Linus (at least think of it more than suggestions coming from someone else), exactly because Linus has shown in multiple situations that he is pragmatic about the suggestions or decisions.

As for myself, I usually tend to listen to people who have this record of practical / rational / pragmatic attached to them rather than the ones, who have this idea of theoretical ideal situation and tries to suit the need of ideal rather than the real need.

Re:Please take care of Linus (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18048978)

I know you're trolling, but what the hey...
"But Linus does really seem to have a bit of an attitude problem at times. Which is many times good if you are a boss for employees, but the problem just is that is not what Linus is, he is the boss of volenteers, they can quit if they don't like their boss."

Linus is not the boss for these volunteers, and he does not pretend to be. His role in this debate is that of a user. He may not be an average user and his name might carry a lot of weight, but he definitely has the right to complain about something that he doesn't like. If he has the skills to actually fix the problems, even better!

"I am just worried for Linus, I sure hope he does take care of himself and stay mentally fit,"

Excuse me? Linus is having an argument and you question his mental health? Are you actually suggesting that people lose it because of disagreements they have with other pepole? Whoever modded you "insightful" is on crack.

Re:Please take care of Linus (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049088)

But Linus does really seem to have a bit of an attitude problem at times.

Nobody said while he was still in Finland.

Linus is right. (1)

mrmeval (662166) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049164)

I quit using Guhnome because it's not configurable and features were being deleted at a rapid rate. It's unusable to me now. The same rot is creeping to KDE. I'm currently using KDE and am tired of the hidden and undocumented configuration settings but even with that it's better than guhnome.

different desktops for different people (1)

Calyth (168525) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049202)

The point of having a rather diverse choice of desktop environments in Linux is that if you don't like one of them, you can use another.
Different people use different desktop environments for their own reason. I like GNOME that comes with Ubuntu because I don't get bombarded with choices, yet still have a good level of integration that isn't always present with other windowmanagers. If I need to put Linux on a low resource computer, I wouldn't even consider GNOME.
Now, if Linus doesn't like GNOME, and prefers KDE, he is more than welcome to ignore GNOME. To have GNOME roll over and obey Linus is to blindly ignore existing GNOME users just to please a [benevolent] dictator.
I have no problems with choice. I find myself gravitate towards software that works quickly, without much fussing around. I like GNOME over KDE, and apparently when I had to set up a webserver for light use, I preferred lighttpd over apache (apache can be too configurable, and overwhelming). That's the reason why we have these parallel projects. If we all a hive mind, then simply these different projects won't exists.
Linus can better serve the open source community by just ignoring GNOME, if he doesn't like where they're heading. If he is right, then GNOME would simply wither away.

Must be... (2, Funny)

Astat1ne (519290) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048810)

Must be that time of month again for Linus...

Re:Must be... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049010)

Linus is kind of a jerk. He gets a halo for writing open source code, and he gets respect for his technical talent as well, but that doesn't change the fact that socially he is a jerk. He says rude and thoughtless things that are simply not called for, and that ultimately hurt the reputation of the Linux community as a whole.

Great code, thanks for the freedom of use, but please grow up.

Re:Must be... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049174)

Interesting opinion; have you ever met Linus? I have. He's not the type of person I'd call a jerk.

Richard Stallman? Maybe; he certainly can be a jerk in certain situations. Eric Raymond (the obscurity he so richly deserves seems to have finally caught up to him, so that reference may no longer be relevant) is definitely a jerk. Meeting both those guys was an eye-opener.

Torvalds? He's a nice guy, actually. He's also a very smart guy who holds his opinions because he's spent a lot of time thinking about them. Despite what people tend to assume, he doesn't insist you agree with his opinion; he does, however, tend to insist that your opinion is well thought out if you wish him to take it seriously. Unfortunately, the Gnome troop seems to have stopped at "simple is good" and not realized that it, like anything, can be taken too far.

Personally I tend to think Gnome's "users are idiots" attitude is not so much due to thinking that users are idiots; I think it's more due to the fact that a few large corporations pay for most of Gnome's development, and they want their users to be treated as idiots. Someone has to have control of the computer, and as is true with Microsoft, the last thing they want is for that control to rest with the person using it.

It is true, and it will always be true, that some people who use computers will never understand them at any level, and they will find a way to hurt themselves with any options you give them. It is also true that most people do not fall into this group, and despite what all the 14 year old fanbois who frequent Slashdot believe, they are not the only ones who can make sense of of a computer; most people who use them become quite adept at making them do what they want.

For Gnome to persist in preventing them from using the computer as they see fit is a shame (interestingly certain folks in the Mozilla project also seem to be infected with this disease, although in that case more pragmatic viewpoints usually prevail). Despite what so many seem to believe, an easy to use UI is not mutually exclusive to a flexible and capable UI; that so many developers assume it to be true is much more a function of their own lack of vision and ability than a reflection on the reality of the situation.

huh? (5, Funny)

User 956 (568564) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048826)

Responding to Torvalds' recent claim that GNOME 'seems to be developed by interface Nazis' and that its developers believe their 'users are idiots,'

What exactly is an "interface Nazi"? Is that someone that develops a GUI that encourages concentration?

not that extreme, really (5, Funny)

game kid (805301) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048882)

They just try to replace Save As... with SEIG FILE! whenever they see it in source strings.

Re:huh? (1)

_vSyncBomb (50710) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048884)

Your post seems to be written by logic nazis, where consistently the excuse for not accepting something is not 'it's too complicated to understand', but 'it is an illogical juxtaposition of two things which don't even have a semblance of a relationship, akin to saying "masonry cannibals" or "carpentry neocons"'.

Re:huh? (1)

gorilla_au (912640) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048896)

Similar to a grammar Nazi, a interface nazi will be forever nit picking about the placement of buttons or the layout of a particular window. They tend to be correct but don't contribute anything worthwhile to the projects that they are "contributing" to.

Re:huh? (1)

PhrostyMcByte (589271) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048904)

No interface for you!

Re:huh? (5, Interesting)

venicebeach (702856) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048948)

What exactly is an "interface Nazi"? Is that someone that develops a GUI that encourages concentration?
Not too long ago, Random House added the following as an alternate definition of Nazi:

a person who is fanatically dedicated to or seeks to control a specified activity, practice, etc.

The Anti-Defamation League was not happy [adl.org] about this.

Re:huh? (5, Funny)

mollymoo (202721) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048994)

The Anti-Defamation League are a bunch of anti-Nazi Nazis.

Re:huh? (2, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049076)

The Anti-Defamation League are a bunch of anti-Nazi Nazis.
Damn that is a great line, is it your own?

The ADL have become (maybe they always were, I haven't paid that much attention) one of the most pro-censorship advocacy groups out there and in an unbashedly biased fashion too - take their stance on Borat - at first they wanted him off the air for encouraging anti-semitism, [adl.org] but someone must have explained the joke to them because a year or two later they issued a second press release saying it's too bad that Borat uses Kazakhs as the butt of his jokes, but its OK after all since they aren't jews, so we don't want Cohen censored after all. [adl.org]

How can they expect anyone to take them seriously when they are happy to endorse the exact same kind of defamation they claim to oppose as long as it is aimed at some other ethnic group besides their own?

Re:huh? (1)

bro1 (143618) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049036)

Sorry ADL, language evolution.

I am actually happy, that language evolution is reflected in the dictionaries. How else we expect to communicate if dictionaries were to contain incorrect meaning of the words?

Re:huh? (1)

panum (161455) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049124)

The ADL press release is dated back in January, 1997. Even Merriam-Webster gives more or less the same alternative explanation [m-w.com] nowadays:

b : one who is likened to a German Nazi : a harshly domineering, dictatorial, or intolerant person

Re:huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049214)

b accurately describes the ADL and the foreign government the represent. Both should be treated accordingly.

Re:huh? (1)

Brandybuck (704397) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049002)

"Nazi" is used as a synonym for "totalitarian thug". It was meant to be a slightly hyperbolic over-the-top statement. GNOME developers are not really totalitarian thugs, but I have no doubt that a few of them would dearly love to make disobedience to the HIG punishable by a long vacation to the Siberian Gulag.

The only thing that offends them more than calling them interface nazis, is a configuration dialog that actually lets you configure an application.

Users *are* usually idiots. (4, Interesting)

izprince (1065036) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048828)

And there is a good reason why distros like Ubuntu default to GNOME and not KDE, in my experience it's a lot easier to break something in KDE, and it's harder for an end user to figure out how to get it to do things like, I don't know, not opening file downloads in a text editor. The other problem is that KDE is slow, REAL slow, I know that GNOME isn't exactly a speed demon, but KDE is suffering from code bloat and so many features being tacked on, and in the end performance takes a hit. I understand that Torvalds is frustrated with GNOME, and he can use KDE all he wants, but why does he have to criticize GNOME so much? The whole reason there are multiple window managers is because none of them do everything right, and so you put many of them out there and let people CHOOSE, he could have jsut as easily criticized KDE for bloat, and Fluxbox for missing features.

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (3, Interesting)

the_womble (580291) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048906)

I am not sure that defaulting to Gnome is a good idea.

Yes, Gnome is easier to use for the completely naive users.

However, it makes Linux less appealing for Windows "power users". They are used to configuring things heavily, and doing quite a lot with their PCs - but they are used to doing this in the GUI. This makes KDE an easier transition for them.

As things stand the completely naive users are unlikely to try Linux anyway, unless they have someone to install and configure stuff for them, so it probably would be better to target the power users.

Yes, it is about choice, but I do think that KDE is a better default.

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (2, Informative)

anagama (611277) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048942)

Surely if they are power users, then tick off the check box next to "kde-desktop", press apply, wait a little while, logout, and login to KDE.

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (2, Insightful)

the_womble (580291) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049054)

The problem is that they are Windows power users. How are they supposed to know they should try KDE? They are not familiar with the idea of choosing from multiple desktop environments. They are not likely to realise that they can click on a menu in the login manager and choose KDE.

So the result is likely to be that they will use the default, and assume that Gnome is "Linux".

The term "power user" implies a certain level of familiarity, but little actual knowledge - a lot of rote learning ("click here to do this"), perhaps the ability to use VBA, and that is about it.

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (1)

edschurr (999028) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049232)

The problem is that they are Windows power users. How are they supposed to know they should try KDE? They are not familiar with the idea of choosing from multiple desktop environments.
This isn't necessarily exactly the case. When someone logs into their Windows (tm) desktop, after the GUI system starts then explorer.exe is started. Although it's normally a file manager, in this case it handles the taskbar, and as such includes the start menu. You can quite easily have another program start instead of explorer. I think when somebody boots into Windows safe mode with console, cmd.exe starts instead.

However, unlike the way things work in GNU/Linux, Explorer doesn't have to draw the window decorations. Those are ingrained into the API, but you can probably enumerate through all the windows and change their class or something.

There is a port of Blackbox for Windows, for example. There is also Stardock's Object Desktop ($).

Of course, people aren't exposed to this part of Windows like they probably would be with GNU/Linux. However, I suspect most power users would do enough research that they'd learn of KDE/Gnome/Xfce/etc.

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (3, Interesting)

gfody (514448) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048930)

I've noticed that KDE is super slow on (k)ubuntu. It's very snappy on debian, though. What gives?

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (4, Interesting)

Rimbo (139781) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048992)

It's because Kubuntu is the ghetto wasteland of the Ubuntu distribution. It was enough to get me to switch back to Fedora, where while KDE isn't the default, it isn't broken.

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049242)

KDE is not broken in (K)Ubuntu, kubuntu-desktop is.

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (1)

SoapDish (971052) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049032)

I had the same problem with Kubuntu. I decided to install Gentoo when Kubuntu messed up an update (somehow worse than yum, or even straight rpm, has ever done for me yet).

I just finished installing it earlier today. Of course, it took 5.5 days, because it's a 300MHz celeron, and I made a mistake setting up distcc.

I'm never touching Ubuntu again! I might try debian in the future.

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (3, Informative)

Brandybuck (704397) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049052)

I'm a huge rabid KDE fan. I use it on FreeBSD. It's fast, snappy responsive and quick. Other than some minor issues with HAL, it's also bug free. But then I needed a Linux distro for use with a project. I unfortunately chose Kubuntu. I swear Kubuntu must be an Ubuntu conspiracy to make people hate KDE. It's slow, bloated, buggy and a mess. And sluggish.

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (2, Interesting)

Nightspirit (846159) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049126)

Huh, I should give debian a try. My first experience with linux was kubuntu and I uninstalled it for vista (which believe it or not is actually much faster for me). I thought it was KDE itself, but I guess I should try a different distro.

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049130)

I have a saying: If Ubuntu is the worst thing to happen to KDE, then Kubuntu is the second. I simply don't understand how they've made such a great desktop so bad.

Oh, and since I've resolved to keep posting these links until it finally penetrates into the public consciousness, here are links comparing the memory usage of GNOME and KDE. The first is by a KDE dev using a slightly outdated version of GNOME; the second by a GNOME dev using GNOME 2.16:

http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmar k.html [kde.org]

http://spooky-possum.org/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/kde vsgnome.html [spooky-possum.org]

This is, of course, without the significant automatic gains that will come with the switch to Qt4. I think it's time to put the "KDE is teh bloated!!!" (at least, compared to GNOME :)) meme to rest, don't you?

Next up: "KDE is teh windoze!" in the face of GNOME integrating a clone of Microsoft's fucking .NET platform (initiated, of course, by everyone's favourite GNOME founder and would-be Microsoft employee). If only KDE had taken the bold step of moving the taskbar to the top of the screen like their GNOME brethren, this meme would likely never have taken hold :(

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (4, Insightful)

arodland (127775) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049014)

That don't match up too well with reality. Recent GNOME is bigger, slower, and has more layers of complication than recent KDE. If you want to talk about bloat, how about using a complete deadend technology like CORBA under the hood, or using XML in places where text would do because "you just don't know"? GNOME has been working on "performance enhancement releases" for the past year or so, but KDE has gotten faster with every release since 2002 and KDE4 is expected to cut overhead even more significantly. Have you compared the dependency trees for kubuntu-desktop vs. ubuntu-desktop? The GNOME one is considerably, um, bushier. Installing a GNOME app from zero takes so much downloading, I'm glad it's automated at least. I feel real pity for the person who actually has to compile all that crap.

Incidentally, spatial file management is one of the worst things ever to come out of the "if it agrees with common sense it can't possibly be right" school of interface design. ;)

Re:Users *are* usually idiots. (5, Interesting)

eln (21727) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049042)

What drives me crazy is the almost universal assumption that Gnome and KDE are the only desktop environments in Linux. Both of these environments are built around the concept that the user is an idiot, and both attempt to mimic Windows in various ways. I cannot understand how someone with real knowledge of Linux could handle working in either environment without going absolutely bonkers.

Personally, I prefer my desktop environment to leave as much of the screen usable as possible, without cluttering it up with silly icons and toolbars. I like to be able to fit several xterms on the screen at once so I can monitor them all without alt-tab'ing or some other such nonsense. I used to use TWM, but these days I use Enlightenment because it maintains the functionality I loved with TWM, only it's prettier.

The fact that modern distributions try to shoehorn everyone into either "Gnome people" or "KDE people" sucks rocks.

Don't cut off your nose to spite your face (2, Insightful)

alshithead (981606) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048836)

I'm not a Linus fan boy. But, I have to say that if the work he is submitting is worth bringing in, there will be hell to pay for ignoring it. It's not like some l33t t33n trying to horn in. He has a history and following. We're not talking about some novice.

Re:Don't cut off your nose to spite your face (1)

martin-boundary (547041) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048982)

User interfaces (intended for humans) are quite different from system interfaces (intended for programs). Linus has a great history with the latter, but that doesn't mean he knows jack shit about the former.

Use the right programmer for the job.

Re:Don't cut off your nose to spite your face (2)

Sancho (17056) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049192)

Linus isn't asking them to change the UI. He's asking them to offer the option of changing the UI. There's no reason that the Gnome developers can't set the default while allowing someone to muck around with it (without having to go into the source and modifying/recompiling).

The specific issue at hand has to do with mouse events. In Gnome, mouse events are apparently hard-coded. Allegedly, you can't change the function of the right-click. That's absurd behavior from a user-interface. Yes, there should be a sane default (opening the context menu) but if I want to change it so that it shades the window or minimizes it, or whatever, I should be able to.

You and the moderators are out of your minds (4, Insightful)

acidrain (35064) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049098)

"there will be hell to pay for ignoring it"

I can't believe Linus, who has probably dropped more patches than anyone else alive, would think that sending in unwanted patches along with a *fuck you too* for good measure would think that somehow the GNOME people would suddenly change their minds.

Furthermore, projects should avoid contributors that are unable to get along even if they would make a valuable contribution. Having the additional useful developer doesn't balance out loosing the contribution of others who are offended and the loss of community around your project. I'm not making this up, just ask any HR department whether they would hire an all around offensive individual regardless of how good he is.

Honestly, I have a lot of respect for Linus, and respect someone who cares so much about the right solution. However in this case he has gone way over the line from being passionate about technology and perhaps a little quirky, into being embarrassingly out of touch with the norms of human interaction in a public forum.

You know something? (4, Informative)

MrNonchalant (767683) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048844)

They all come off as squabbling children. This is FOSS' finest?

Here are the highlights for those who didn't RTFA:
Lopez: "Linus, you don't know how to read Spanish, so are you an idiot too?"
[snip]
Schaller: "Could maybe be a good way to start a constructive dialog instead of this useless mudslinging?"
[snip]
Torvalds: "What I find unconstructive is how the GNOME people always make *excuses*. It took me a few hours to actually do the patches. It wasn't that hard. So why didn't I do it years ago?

I'll tell you why: because GNOME apologists don't say "please send us patches". No. They basically make it clear that they aren't even *interested* in fixing things, because their dear old Mum isn't interested in the feature.
[snip]
But why, oh, why, have GNOME people not just said "please fix it then"?

Instead, I _still_ (now after I sent out the patch) hear more of your kvetching about how you actually do everything right, and it's somehow *my* fault that I find things limiting.

Here's a damn big clue: the reason I find GNOME limiting is BECAUSE IT IS."

Re:You know something? (1)

howlingmadhowie (943150) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048986)

well, i think the programmers on the linux kernel are amongst the best programmers in the world, not just in the foss community.

i regard this mud-slinging as positive. if everybody just pretended to like everything else they saw, there would at some stage be very limited progress.

howie

Boilerplate annoyance? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18048850)

Anyone else starting to become annoyed by the repetitive, and often uninformative statement that proceeds nearly every Linux related story?

Yes, we know that Linux.com and Slashdot are both owned by OSTG.

I see this line at least once every day.

Cleaner and more capable?? (5, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048852)

Sorry kneejerkers, but its going to require a much more detailed description of those patches than simply "cleaner and more capable" before we can make a good evaluation of whether Linus's patches should be accepted.

After all, if someone submitted patches to the linux kernel to grab the local weather report and print it out on boot, that would be adding capability that Linus would never accept in a million years because it is outside of the scope of the kernel. If Linus's patches are similarly outside the scope of the official design goals of Gnome, then any expectation that they would be accepted is just a red herring.

Re:Cleaner and more capable?? (2, Informative)

dvice_null (981029) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048890)

> Sorry kneejerkers, but its going to require a much more detailed description of those patches

Well you could just RTFA if you are interested in details. Linus: "(with my patches, double-clicking on the title bar isn't a special event: it's configurable along with right- and middle-clicking, and with the exact same syntax for all)"

Re:Cleaner and more capable?? (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049006)

Well you could just RTFA if you are interested in details. Linus: "(with my patches, double-clicking on the title bar isn't a special event: it's configurable along with right- and middle-clicking, and with the exact same syntax for all)"

You are correct, I just RHTFA (h=half) and stopped after his first description which said only:

The code is actually _cleaner_ after my patches, and the end result is more capable. We'll see what happens.

Re:Cleaner and more capable?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18048918)

from the article:

So let's see what happens to my patches. I guarantee you that they actually improve the code (not just add a feature). I also guarantee that they actually make things *more* logical rather than less (with my patches, double-clicking on the title bar isn't a special event: it's configurable along with right- and middle-clicking, and with the exact same syntax for all).

No. (2, Insightful)

Meor (711208) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048870)

People don't want configurability, they want something that works out of the box. That's why despite being free, people will pay 200$ for a copy of Windows. They don't want to compile things, they want it to work out of the box. They don't want to edit config files, they want it to self discover out of the box.

Re:No. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049086)

Ah, but people *do* want configurability.

With Gnome, you cannot click and add/edit MIME types. You cannot click and assign icons to specific MIME types or specific files based on name or extension. AFAIK, that is something every other desktop environment can do. Gnome can't.

How do you expect me to bond with that kind of UI? For goodness sakes, you can't even click and adjust the screen-saver anymore.

They really have dumbed it down to the point where it is bordering on useless.

Re:No. (3, Insightful)

stuuf (587464) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049100)

How do you expect a desktop environment to "discover" how quickly someone wants their panel to auto-hide or when the battery meter should change from green to yellow? Do you even know what this discussion is about, or did you just throw a generic Windows vs. Linux user-friendliness reply at it? The difference between Windows and Linux that you've mentioned is wether or not manual configuration of things like hardware is required; the issue here is developers arbitrarily removing the ability to configure software.

Re:No. (1)

bro1 (143618) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049110)

Which people are you talking about? :)

Certainly not about me, as I like my stuff to work out of the box and to configure it as time goes to better suit my needs.

Re:No. (2, Insightful)

Sancho (17056) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049162)

You can have something that works out of the box (catering to most people) while allowing configurability (catering to almost everyone else). That's all Linus is saying.

It's a common theme amongst UI developers. Provide lots of customization, but ship with sane defaults. There is no reason that the Gnome developers couldn't provide this, except for the lack of time. Linus has started the process of solving that problem with his patches.

Re:No. (2, Interesting)

arkhan_jg (618674) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049180)

You haven't installed windows lately then. I've just been on a clean-up and reinstall/migrate jolly. I've installed two copies of windows XP pro on two different computers; two copies of vista on same, one 32-bit, one 64-bit, and kubuntu edgy on one of the boxes.

Kubuntu needed a one line command to install the binary nvidia drivers (I could have done it in the gui with a couple of clicks also); all else worked out of the box, apart from the 100s of MBs of updates and patches; but then windows needs that also, so that's a draw.

Windows XP doesn't properly recognise either sound card, my mouse, my graphics cards, my tv-tuners, some of the onboard motherboard devices, my gig network cards, hell I even need a boot floppy for the sata drivers to install it; I had to dig a floppy drive out of storage especially. I had to manually track down and install the drivers from half a dozen different websites, which is tricky when your network card doesn't work yet. And before you complain it's an old OS, it's entirely microsoft's fault they haven't issued SP3 with updated drivers and all the patches; I believe we get to wait until 2008 for that.

Vista needs updated motherboard drivers and graphics card drivers, sound card drivers and mouse drivers, most of which aren't available at all yet, or are 'technology previews' and don't work yet. I'm looking at you, Mr Nvidia SLI, and Mr Razer, we don't do signed vista 64 drivers yet.

Out of the box compatibility SUCKS for windows, and always has. Why most people don't encounter this is because their OEM does all the hard work for them and provide an installed finished product. They could do so with linux, and have just a slick a product. What linux lacks is application support these days, not drivers out of the box. Even wireless is very slick on ubuntu last time I tried it.

As a long-time GNOME user... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18048872)

I think Linus is right. The GNOME developers have dumbed down the interface to the point of annoyance. There is a difference between hiding more advanced tweaking in a separate window or panel and making you (for example) go to gconf to fix the setting, as I have to do every time I want to re-enable emacs-style key bindings after every upgrade of my distro.

Yeah, yeah, I know, it's F/LOSS, I should just submit patches. But I'd rather rant and let other people submit them for me :-)

Re:As a long-time GNOME user... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18048980)

Yeah, so as a GNOME user, I'd rather have someone else do their "emacs-style key bindings" every time after upgrade of your "distro" rather than have to bother myself by wondering what the hell they are and having them kludge the clean GNOME UI.

Oh, and the modern text editors just called. They asked my to say hi to someone living in the 80's ;-)

Re:As a long-time GNOME user... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18048988)

If your distro belives it's ok to overwrite your preferences then that's a distro bug. Gnome will happily use old configs.

He's completely wrong (4, Insightful)

WasterDave (20047) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048874)

Linus, that is.

The whole point of the open source movement is to allow alternative approaches to flourish and be chosen (or not) on their merits. It's what OSS does to raise quality. The biggest problem KDE and Gnome always had was that they continually trod on each others' toes. So, let them go their separate ways - let KDE be configurable and Gnome be "designed for idiots". See who wins. Either which way the variety is good for OSS itself.

Dave

Linus is a complete idiot (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18048912)

If they don't need some feature to be configurable (rather than consistent), then why would they do that change? It's open source, and the guy did the change as he wanted to. He can branch the code any time. What the hell is his problem? Megalomania? He should really try toning down his ego.

GNOME is very good because it has some of the best practises on by default. For most users, that is. The rest can modify the code as they please. What part of open source is Mr. Torvalds not getting?

Exactly (1)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048968)

I don't know why Linus has to care, there are plenty of prominent alternatives.

I like Ubuntu and it got me leaning more toward Gnome. I never liked KDE that much, but I don't take any extra measures to spread that message far and wide - I just don't use it.

Maybe someone can relieve me of my ignorance here (about Linus caring so much, that is).

Re:He's completely wrong (4, Insightful)

Rimbo (139781) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049026)

I don't think it's that simple. People accept whatever default the distro gives them as "what Linux looks like," and Gnome has a foothold due to the licensing issues over Qt.

The problem is, long after the licensing issues with Qt have gone, and while Gnome continues to be the least functional GUI available for any modern desktop OS (a badge the Gnome community appears to wear with pride), no one has switched.

I'm as frustrated as Torvalds is with it, because it's not enough to just use KDE when given the chance. Look at the utter disregard the Ubuntu project has for Kubuntu; the system configuration dialogs last time I used it (Breezy Badger) were utterly broken and unusable -- and I've heard from some Edgy Eft users that it still sucks. There's a post right above here yapping about how awful slow Kubuntu is compared with Debian.

KDE's the only desktop that does things right. Konqueror is gorgeous, and easily rivals my Mac for usability and power.

Re:He's completely wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049238)

and I've heard from some Edgy Eft users that it still sucks.

It doesn't just suck, it has gotten worse. Vanilla KDE is IMHO the best UI there is and there was an unofficial patch (by someone that had enough of the Kubuntu "improvements") that restored Control Center in badger but more changes have been made to edgy and no such patch is available.

KDE's the only desktop that does things right. Konqueror is gorgeous, and easily rivals my Mac for usability and power

In my opinion KDE has reached a state where it has certain virtues over all other GUIs (that includes Macs) and users have gotten used to those features so whilst a lot of open source GUIs can be improved by imitating commercial apps that is no longer the case with KDE which is so good on its own merits. I remember a FAQ about Kubuntu which included a question about the changes and the answer was "...was done to improve usability." I'd say that if you need to explain to users that something was done to improve usability, it's quite likely that you haven't improved usability - if a change is a real improvement users will react "Damn that's clever!" - not "WTF!?".

Re:He's completely wrong (1)

Hathor's Dad (983147) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049226)

"allow alternative approaches to flourish and be chosen (or not) on their merits" I think the reason for the interest is that the options are limited and people want to rant and chest beat over the contenders. No one is wrong for saying basically "this is a good start but please stop fucking it up" I use gnome on fedora - have used KDE a bit. But i have turned off the eye candy as it is often done be VNC over a few K's. But really when I fire up the apps I need then I dont want to the desktop. from there pls make it quick, nothing else but quick. Perhaps you folks could recommend a lighter desktop.! Cheers HDC

'Show me the patches!' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18048878)

Hi I am to laezy to search, does anyone know where the patches are.

N00bs (1)

RiotXIX (230569) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048894)

I hope this doesn't put people off using gnome. It's still more stable than KDE from my experience, and has many good applications on GTK (which I rate more stable than the kde counterparts - regardless of configurability or not, reliability is quite important to me). If you want more configurability, , and your skills have developed from entry level to enthusiast, move out of KDE & Gnome.

What's wrong with simplifying the arcane? (2, Interesting)

uvajed_ekil (914487) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048922)

Responding to Torvalds' recent claim that GNOME 'seems to be developed by interface Nazis' and that its developers believe their 'users are idiots,'

Interesting fight. Linus wants configurability and flexibility to reign, which is a hallmark of linux. However, the dominance of Windows (and the success of Mac OS, OS X etc.), as well as the preponderance of "idiot's guides", should clearly lead us to believe that the majority of PC users are, in fact, idiots. Certainly there are many geeks and power users, and not all linux users are geeks, but the typical PC owner doesn't care about minor tweaks; most people just want their system to run and be usable.

Personally, I dualboot XP and Kubuntu, and I've used many other distros, but some people need the universal acceptance of XP apps and file formats, the ease/reliability of a Mac, or at least the simplicity of Gnome. I take pride in being able to take care of my daily business without employing MS software or other monopolistic products, but most pepole just want to do what they need to do without any hassle, and Gnome is a step in that direction, with a linux base. It works, and though I wouldn't try to make it a basic linux standard, I am glad it exists, as it surely leads to wider linux adoption.

Re:What's wrong with simplifying the arcane? (1)

SoapDish (971052) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049078)

There have been a few posts about the brokenness of Kubuntu. You might want to switch to another distribution, like debian.

Not about look (4, Insightful)

mrsteveman1 (1010381) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048926)

This argument has nothing to do with the background or what gnome looks like morons, it has to do with the way it responds to actions, the way it presents options to the user.

The fact that linus had to take time to submit patches means the gnome developers are doing something incredibly stupid, this isn't a turf war, it means linus is concerned that the kernel he spends shitloads of time on is being trivialized by idiot programmers refusing to accept what the rest of the world wants in the systems they use.

KDE does the same shit, its annoying. I use linux daily but i have to say this is classic linux bullshit, KDE has too much, gnome has too little and no one wants to talk to each other or solve shit because everyone is in their own little camp.

Prefixes are gay as well, kstfu, ggbye

Re:Not about look (5, Informative)

SoapDish (971052) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049150)

Just to back you up on this...

People should read the thread where all this happened: http://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/deskto p_architects/2007-February/thread.html [linux-foundation.org]

After someone asked about where the patches were, Linus said the following:

I sent them to the gnomecc list (the changes to let control center enable
it were bigger than the changes to the metacity ones, but more
importantly, control-center actually had a mailing list address in its
README).

The metacity patches I also sent to maintainers that I tried to google
for, because there isn't even any submission address in the sources that I
could find.

Of course, the gnomecc mailing list is "by members only", so I don't know
if the patches ever got accepted by the moderator.

Quite frankly, I think it's interesting how (a) no developer contacts were
listed and (b) the one that did list it doesn't even accept email from
outside. ...

(and maybe give hints
to them that if you have a README file that says "REPORTING BUGS AND
SUBMITTING PATCHES", it might be good to actually give an email to send
things to, instead of saying "Send me mail" with no email address actually
ever mentioned!)

Re:Not about look (1)

NormalVisual (565491) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049154)

...no one wants to talk to each other or solve shit because everyone is in their own little camp.

I perceive this as being one of the big stumbling blocks to more widespread acceptance of F/OSS alternatives to commercial software. Everyone's too busy showing their ass and having flamewars over stuff instead of working together and learning what the word "compromise" means. People are too busy saying "X sucks!" and trying to denigrate others rather than working towards a real solution.

Re:Not about look (1)

geekster (87252) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049218)

How about the rest of the world go use another desktop environment then? Troll...

Godwin (-1, Offtopic)

Faylone (880739) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048932)

from the can't-the-nazis-stay-out-of-just-one-internet-argu ment dept.

No. Next question, please.

gconf = regedit (4, Insightful)

TheLink (130905) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048960)

To all those Gnome fans:

There are tons of things that can be configured/fixed in Windows just like Gnome.

With some configuration tool that's only suitable for an elite bunch to use.

So, I don't see Gnome as an improvement over Windows in terms of usability.

Autism (0)

petrus4 (213815) | more than 7 years ago | (#18048976)

Here's the dichotomy, and it's also why "Linux" and "mainstream," usually don't go together in the same sentence. "Mainstream," means (among other things) "non-autistic." For those of you who've accused me of resorting to stereotypes here, let's see Linus go and have diagnostic tests for autism...as well as pretty much everyone else who's commonly considered a "senior developer," with Linux. I'll bet money that they test positive in 90+% of cases. It's the same characteristics which allow them to be such brilliant programmers on the one hand, that cause them to fight about things which normal people would not even remotely consider on the other.

I'm not of course implying for one minute that neurotypical individuals don't fight...but they generally fight about different things, and which window environment to use on their computers wouldn't be one of said things. Autism can often be a truly crippling social disability, and one of the main reasons why is because autistics tend to care about things that most non-autistics don't...like engaging in holy wars about which is the *one true* graphical environment, which is the *one true* text editor, or which is the *one true* license.

Autism in the case of Linux is, as I said, a tremendously double edged sword...because on the one hand autistic characteristics are arguably a pre-requisite for being a truly great programmer.

On the other hand, the socially disabling aspects of autism are the single main thing holding Linux back, because of the obsession with abstractions that neurotypical individuals do not care about.

I've made analogies between the Linux community and the X-Men before, and as crazy as it initially seems, once you think about it for a while it's not as outlandish as it sounds. Most of you genuinely *are* mutants, and incidents like this one make that fact plain for all to see. The main reason why the average guy on the street is having such difficulty adopting Linux is because, when he looks at the people developing it, he can't help feeling more or less exactly the same way towards you as Senator Kelly [wikipedia.org] would have.

Re:Autism (1)

John Nowak (872479) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049034)

Most people who engage in internet flame wars about issues they are particularly passionate about are not autistic. I have seen absolutely no evidence over the years that Linus would fit in such a category.

Re:Autism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049182)

Ditto. I find Linus's grasp of human nature and general charisma and humour to be completely contra-indicative of anything even approaching autism. The thing is that he simply does not suffer fools gladly, and if you are doing something wrong (code-wise), he will likely butt in and tell you. This is indicative of impatience and abrasiveness, not "aspergers" or anything like that. Being a very busy public figure who has taken continual fire from all corners does tend to make you curt and set aside social niceties - business men call this "cutting to the chase".

Configurable click behaviour of title bars?? (2, Insightful)

iamacat (583406) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049028)

I read description of the patches, and I don't want a window system with configurable right, middle OR double clicks on a title bar. If Linux ever becomes popular, it would be conceivable for a user to use someone else's machine, or expect instructions in an introductory book to work. He will then end up closing an important spreadsheet while trying to maximize it. Besides, window title bar is not the most critical or complex part of UI. I would rather gnome and kde teams focus on developing killer controls and good UI design tools. I DON'T want my window system's control panel to look like Linus'es make xconfig.

Live and let live (1)

Louis Guerin (728805) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049068)

As much as I agree with Linus on this particular issue (and as much as I want to see the gnometards' `you're a six year-old' UI get its due) I think the point to be made here is that free software isn't zero-sum, isn't inherently competitive, and the appropriate thing to do if you dislike a particular thing is not to tear it down, but to build something else up.

It's impossible to justify the argument that Linus is being destructive, since he's actually contributing what is likely quality code in good faith to a project which sorely needs it - but I wonder if he wouldn't have been better off trying to improve something with whose fundamentals he didn't quite so completely disagree.

L

things linus is good at (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049120)

First, things Linus is NOT good at:

1) copyright licenses
2) copyright assignment
3) patents
4) understanding why BitKeeper was a bad idea
5) open-source politics
6) user interfaces

Next, things that Linus IS good at:

1) kernel development

The more times he opens his mouth on one of the topics from the first list, the more I believe this is true.

Where is the change-log? (1)

muxecoid (1061162) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049140)

I just what to now what is in the patches. Where is the change-log?

I use Fluxbox why? (2, Insightful)

notanatheist (581086) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049146)

Because I want full configurability.
Because I don't want the bloat involved with Gnome and KDE backgroud utilities running
Because I don't want my machine to act or behave like M$ Windows or OS X
Because I want pure freakin' speed!!!
Because eye-candy isn't that damned important. I get by fine with 3Ddesktop and translucent aterms.
If I really want eye-candy I'll run Enlightenment
As I've been telling people thinking about Vista, do you want a fast computer so your OS can look pretty or so you can get more done? Application performance comes first and foremost so I want the lightest, fastest desktop available short of running Rat or screen.

MS Paint and Adobe Photoshop (1)

babbling (952366) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049184)

MS Paint: The most widely used image editing program in the world. Users can understand how to use it within seconds of seeing it for the first time, but expert users don't like it much.

Adobe Photoshop: The most powerful image editing program in the world. Entire books can be written on how to use it but all of the experts prefer it.

Differently skilled users will prefer different applications.

Gnome (1)

grege1 (1065244) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049198)

I like Gnome - I dislike KDE's messiness, too many lines on the screen for no reason, it is not Zen. I wait for the Nexenta project to reach maturity, then we will have a real fifth toe!

gnome vs the rest (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18049224)

I can guarantee that most of the linux based studios in the CGI industry run Gnome. It's simpler, faster and more stable than KDE. I am sure you know that the people there push really hard the video subsystems of the computer hardware. In these conditions it's really easy to figure out which one is the better GUI shell.
KDE is great for home users who like eyecandy and are ready to spend time tweaking the window manager to work exactly the way they want ( or dont :) ) - in fact this is a solid part of the "fun". It's great also for people who are not totally dependent all the time by their GUI shell - sysadmins, web/apps coders, terminal users, web surfers, etc.
For those of us, who really need stable and just working GUI - Gnome is the way to go. But of course, it needs some time and the right conditions to understand that. Once you start feeling the heat of the upcoming deadline and at the same time experience instabilities and wackines of the GUI shell and this is screwing up the graphic apps you need to work stable to get the job done on time, you will start appretiating Gnome little more.
I dont know what is the Gnome problem of mr.Torvalds. Maybe he is thinking at the code level, but for me and most of the people i know and work with, Gnome is just the better solution than KDE. It's not about configurability and pretiness - it's about stability. Most people at work dont really care much how the GUI looks and feels like, as far as it does the expected job. And of course i am talking specificaly about the needs of CGI production. Maybe the situatoin is quite different at other places, industries, project types and workflow requirements.

The words above are based on my observations.
Here is my personal opinion - i like Gnome + Motiff theme - it is simple, it works. It allows me to do my pretty pictures better, faster and with less stress - i suppose it's good then ( at least for me ).

Linus does have a point.. (1)

SQLz (564901) | more than 7 years ago | (#18049236)

Gnome isn't that good, IMHO. At least the fixed the file dialog.
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