Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Haiku Tech Talk at Google a Success

CowboyNeal posted more than 7 years ago | from the come-together dept.

Be 127

mikesum writes "February 13 was Haiku's big day at Google, and we can say with a good degree of confidence that the Haiku Tech Talk was quite successful. We had a very special guest for this event: former Be Inc. CEO Jean Louis Gassée, who not only joined us at Google for our presentation, but also gave a few words of support and encouragement for our project. It was great to have JLG's presence, as well as that of the several ex-Be engineers who showed up for the talk. We were also glad to see Java for BeOS developer Andrew Bachman join us for this special event. Have a look at the pictures taken during the presentation, as well as the video of the event."

cancel ×

127 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Haiku Tech Talk (5, Funny)

sczimme (603413) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052608)


Jean Louis Gassée
who joined us at Google and
gave words of support .

Re:Haiku Tech Talk (5, Funny)

sokoban (142301) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052680)

Jean Louis Gassée
Be OS was a big flop
What does he do now?

Re:Haiku Tech Talk (0, Offtopic)

realitybath1 (837263) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052948)

For the love of god Make all the posted comments In the haiku form

Re:Haiku Tech Talk (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18057134)

Well, it could be worse. He could be one of the wastes of sperm actually _working_ on Haiku.

I'm willing to bet that crazy bitch at OSNews is pounding herself with a vibrator after reading this story.

Re:Haiku Tech Talk (1)

new500 (128819) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053198)

for sentimental reasons

Oh, Jean Louis Gassée!
Beige and High Right
was not to be.

Re:Haiku Tech Talk (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18053648)

These are my words.
BeOS is dead.
You should get a life.

Poetic moderators (4, Funny)

alienmole (15522) | more than 7 years ago | (#18056696)

Failing haiku form
You will be moderated
As Troll on /.

To be precise... (2, Funny)

pjt33 (739471) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053716)

He "gave a few words". Would "seventeen syllables" Be right on the nail?

uh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18052666)

What the heck does this have to do with BeOS?

Re:uh (1)

TomHandy (578620) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052700)

From looking at the Haiku OS website, it says it is inspired by BeOS.

Re:uh (2, Informative)

NiteMair (309303) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052956)

Well, besides the fact that it runs BeOS R5 software natively (binary-compatible) - and is followed and supported by pretty much everyone who is left in the BeOS community, not much.

Re:uh (4, Funny)

rolandog (834340) | more than 7 years ago | (#18054430)

There you go again,
not writing witty haikus.
Insensitive clod!

Good Luck (1)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052670)

I just want to wish the project good luck. I think Haiku is and will be a great operating system. The team have already accomplished a lot, but, undoubtedly, there is still much to do. Keep up the good work!

Success needs opensource drivers (4, Insightful)

DrYak (748999) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053120)

It's example like this I want to give to all who say "Meh ! I don't need my drivers to be opensource, nVidia's drivers for linux are good enough".

Yeah. And how are you going to port them to Haiku ? nVidia has not interests in supporting additional OS that don't even have 1% market share. (It's already incredible that they support BSD, Solaris and 2 Linux platforms) But if nouveau [freedesktop.org] project succeeds, Haiku people will have a nice opensource code base from which to adapt a driver. And without good hardware support, nice systems like haiku won't get widespread use.

I wish a lot of luck to Haiku, and hope they'll find a way to survive in the difficult place where companies only focus on the 1-2 most popular platforms, and refuse to help the others.

Re:Success needs opensource drivers (1)

nwhitehorn (1044658) | more than 7 years ago | (#18054276)

I believe the nouveau driver is actually based on the Haiku one, which has 3D support for a limited range of nVidia products (up to GeForce 4).

Collaboration (1)

DrYak (748999) | more than 7 years ago | (#18055976)

As far as I've read they're not *based on* but collaborating and exchanging informations.
And the Haiku project will benefit from actual development because apparently they only support 1 generation of graphic card (the NV0x which is also supported on the next generation, i.e: NV1x. Haiku only works with TNT and GeForce 1-2 [+4MX]), and apparently isn't maintained very actively.

The nouveau project itself is mostly build around the renouveau tool : a tool assisting in reverse engineering which sends openGL command to the card and then dumps it to see how it responded to the commands.

There's a lot of reverse engineering going on there, and as it is documented and publicly available, it can benefit any other project trying to write nVidia drivers.

Hoped Linus would adopt this orphan (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18056944)

I've hoped that Linus and Linux would adopt an open source BeOS clone and use it as the basis for the replacement for the Linux desktop. Combine with some heavywieght backing from IBM and the donation of the Lotus office products suite, it would be quite a nice near zero cost competitor for Windows.

Re:Hoped Linus would adopt this orphan (1)

SirSlud (67381) | more than 7 years ago | (#18058126)

would be quite a nice near zero cost competitor for Windows.

I hate windows as much as the next /. user, but zero cost is rediculous. That would take a vast amount of work, and from my end, most of the value of beOS is in the internals, not the UI. What exactly would you gain if you just took the windowing layer of beOS? Not very much.

the donation of the Lotus office products suite

Donation of Lotus? Do people 'donate' gonorrhea? Lotus notes should die and burn in hell. It would take me about 3 months to replace what Lotus does for our organization in PHP, were I in information services rather than being an actual programmer, and it would cost us 3 months of my salary and not a dime more. Lotus should be killed, over and over and over again.

Sorry for the attacks. beOS was awesome, in my books, and I wish it didnt join the massive list of decent OSes that have bitten the dust just because governments can't afford to piss off the supplier of their IT infrastructure, and companies can't afford to convince users to experience some short term pain for long term free market gain.

IBM (and MS, for crying out loud) was behind OS2, and operating system I saw quite regularly running cell phone switch centers only 4 or 5 years ago, and they got slaughtered in the desktop market for reasons which have absolutely nothing to do with technological advantages. I can't imagine that if Linux got beOSs tits and ass, but none of the brains, that it would have any significant imprint on the OS world. Linux doesn't need a beOS windowing toolkit (if you like the graphics, just download the appropriate theme for your window manager), Linux needs a social or economic angle that makes individuals willing to feel the pain for the gain.

BeOS is back? (1)

simp (25997) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052682)

Can it be? I always was a fan of BeOS for the reason that is looked and felt so clean and fast. And now there is a new OS, obviously based on BeOS, that has Google power behind it. I want to run this on my pda, on my laptop for basic internet usage, etc...

No (1)

Rix (54095) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053112)

It's not based on BeOS, it's an independent implementation of the BeOS API. Also, Google talks aren't Google talking to people about things, they're people talking to Google about things. They just post video so the rest of us can benefit, too.

Haiku (5, Funny)

EveryNickIsTaken (1054794) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052696)

Might be good OS
But with only twelve users
Grim future ahead.

Re:Haiku (2, Insightful)

sokoban (142301) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052730)

Be was pretty good
It was ahead of its time
Back in the nineties.

Re:Haiku (1)

Nelson (1275) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053244)

Be OS had hype

lot's of talk but little beef

haiku is the same

ode to gassee (1)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053398)

had a great OS
could have been the next Mac but
wanted too much cash

Re:Haiku (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18053486)

They said the same thing
About OS/2 back then
Fat lot of good that did

Re:Haiku (1)

drolli (522659) | more than 7 years ago | (#18056934)

Be was pretty interesting.

But compared to Nextstep it was really ahead of it's times.

Re:Haiku (1)

drolli (522659) | more than 7 years ago | (#18056946)

I wanted to say:

Be was pretty interesting.

But compared to Nextstep it was not really ahead of it's times.

Re:Haiku (1)

sokoban (142301) | more than 7 years ago | (#18057102)

What you should have said:

Be was pretty neat

But when compared to Nextstep

It wasn't that great

Please explain (1)

drolli (522659) | more than 7 years ago | (#18057412)

please explain, english is not my native language.

Re:Please explain (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18057798)

ahh (4, Funny)

physicsboy500 (645835) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052702)

Google learns today

new OS will thrill us all

Slashdotters rejoice

haiku (1)

TheSHAD0W (258774) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052824)

And now, a haiku. [attackcartoons.com]

dead things (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18052834)

flask of ripe urine
pressed to dead BeOS lips
BeOS drink your pee

Non-haiku poem post. (5, Funny)

Spazntwich (208070) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052836)

I wanted to go against the grain.

There once was a man most true
Who came to talk in Haiku
His OS was dead
The workers felt dread
Their business might soon be too

Limmerick OS? or... (2, Funny)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 7 years ago | (#18054592)

Or we could go for Gangsta Rap OS! Don't even have to rhyme, just RESPEKT, BITCHEZ!!!

Re:Non-haiku poem post. (1)

Do You Smell That (932346) | more than 7 years ago | (#18055286)

Limericks are not suitable, they are just plain inappropriate.

bad submission summary (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18052908)

the moronic author should mention that in this case, Haiku refers to an attempt to recreate BeOS and not the Japanese form of poetry.

General purpose vs. specialized (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18052934)

It seems reasonable that a specialized operating system aimed at the desktop would do that job better than a general purpose os like Linux. We all complain about bloatware that is burdened with features that almost nobody uses. This operating system could solve that problem; in theory.

On the other hand, Linux can be stripped down to the bare essentials and get most of the advantages of Haiku with much less effort. One of the complaints about gnu/linux is that there is no clear, shared vision and this results in incompatability. Solving this problem means that the Haiku team has to re-write all the gnu/linux applications. That increases their work by an order of magnitude.

So, would I contribute to this project? Nope. I am guessing that my efforts would be more productive in the gnu/linux environment.

Re:General purpose vs. specialized (1)

mlk (18543) | more than 7 years ago | (#18057364)

re-write all the gnu/linux application
No. BeOS used the GNU toolchain.

Re:General purpose vs. specialized (1)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 7 years ago | (#18057802)

Linux isn't the problem, per se... current kernel speed for threading, etc. is generally better in Linux than in BeOS. Where BeOS sparkled was the desktop. The problem is X/KDE/GNOME. A combination of "good enough" and "legacy apps" means it probably won't ever be replaced.

Another (4, Funny)

DavidD_CA (750156) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052982)

Typical Slashdot
Mention haikus and you all
Become smartasses

Slashdotted Haiku (4, Funny)

DavidD_CA (750156) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053046)

warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/tmp/mysql.sock' (11) in /home2/haiku/webapps/website/gallery2/lib/adodb/dr ivers/adodb-mysql.inc.php on line 348.
Warning: mysql
Cannot connect to server
No pictures to see

Re:Slashdotted Haiku (1)

K8Fan (37875) | more than 7 years ago | (#18056126)

That's brilliant!

Re:Another (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18055012)

No, everyone thinks they are smartasses, when in reality they are clueless. There's no strict syllable rules for haiku, and you need to incorporate a seasonal element.

new filesystem (1)

atamyrat (980611) | more than 7 years ago | (#18052990)

What's interesting for me is that, they implemented new database like file system in C++, which reminds me WinFS.

Re:new filesystem (1)

AberBeta (851747) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053086)

"new"?

Re:new filesystem (2, Informative)

mlk (18543) | more than 7 years ago | (#18057392)

They are implementing the same FS as BeOS had (BeFS). So not "new" at all. OFS (Old Be FS) had Even More database goodness I believe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeFS [wikipedia.org]

I Feel Let Down (1)

TychoCelchuuu (835690) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053038)

I'm disappointed Title made me imagine Tech talk in haikus

Re:I Feel Let Down (1)

Stormwatch (703920) | more than 7 years ago | (#18055854)

I'm disappointed Title made me imagine Tech talk in haikus

You made a mistake
to divide lines when posting
must choose Plain Old Text

Server crash go boom (1)

SuperBanana (662181) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053056)

webserver crashes slashdotters joke server fire mysql go boom (My-Sequel, not My-Ess-Que-Ehl, fyi.)

Re:Server crash go boom (2, Funny)

SuperBanana (662181) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053094)

slashdotter hangs head
shall not forget tags again
always preview first
:(

Re:Server crash go boom (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18055064)

From the MySQL website: [mysql.com] "The official way to pronounce "MySQL" is "My Ess Que Ell" (not "my sequel"), but we don't mind if you pronounce it as "my sequel" or in some other localized way."

Re:Server crash go boom (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18056866)

(My-Sequel, not My-Ess-Que-Ehl, fyi.)

Yea, if you're a manager or a MS "developer".

Meta-Comment (1, Informative)

giminy (94188) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053074)

Everyone does this
Replies with seventeen beats
Moderate them well

how is this OS going to be different? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18053108)

Get the latest patch,
reboot. Thank you for calling
technical support.

Looking forward to it being ported to PDA's (1)

oodl (398345) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053152)

The BeOS runs great on my Mac-clone with a 250Mhz PowerPC 603 and just 32MB of RAM. The BeIDE runs fine within that amount of RAM, and you could run plenty of other applications along with BeIDE in that amount of RAM. The OS boots up amazing fast (by today's standards) and is amazingly responsive on what is considered really low-end PC hardware by today's standards.

I'd love to see Haiku ported to PDA's. Even some phones today have more than 64MB of RAM. The BeOS is so much more capable than Windows Mobile 5.

that's great... (1)

picob (1025968) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053166)

Now go fix your webpage at http://haiku-os.org/ [haiku-os.org] :

warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/tmp/mysql.sock' (11) in /home2/haiku/webapps/website/gallery2/lib/adodb/dr ivers/adodb-mysql.inc.php on line 348.

Re:that's great... (1)

NiteMair (309303) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053186)

Strangely enough - once I login to the site the warning goes away.

Must be something that only affects anonymous visitors.

Re:that's great... (2, Funny)

sokoban (142301) | more than 7 years ago | (#18054084)

Strangely enough - once I login to the site the warning goes away.
Perhaps you mean:

And strangely enough
once I log in to the site
warnings go away

Appropriate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18053170)

The appropriate
font for such an OS must be
the teeny tiny

From the video: :-) (1)

atamyrat (980611) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053176)

Any other questions while it loads Firefox?

Haiku (5, Funny)

VorpalRodent (964940) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053190)

Obligatory:
But In Soviet Russia
Haiku Uses You

Re:Haiku (5, Funny)

VorpalRodent (964940) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053212)

I know its bad form to reply to my own comment, but I just realized that there was another one I missed:

Obligatory:
Imagine a beowulf
Cluster of these things.

Whoaaaa... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18053232)

Haiku will be a great
success and make many
AmigaOS4 users migrate

you thought that went well?? (3, Insightful)

Lord Bitman (95493) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053324)

Everything they showed didn't work, everything asked for wasn't available, they seemed _very_ impressed with themselves about a compressed form of SVG (which is just so important to Operating System design).

I really don't see what I (or anyone) am supposed to take out of that presentation.

Re:you thought that went well?? (1)

Stormx2 (1003260) | more than 7 years ago | (#18054116)

Nothing really worked
Even the requested stuff
Wasn't for our eyes

They were impressed though
Impressed with their SVG
I found it useless

What did I get out?
Nothing, really. What a load!
Bad presentation.

From this point forward
You will write all your comments
In a haiku form

Re:you thought that went well?? (1)

cianduffy (742890) | more than 7 years ago | (#18054124)

Its not a compressed implementation of SVG - its a seperate format. Phipps managed to trip over it entirely so tried to say it again, and still tripped over it. Thats why it sounds like he's excited about it, he's just saying it three times :P

That said, it is noticably faster than SVG-icon based vector graphic implementations on BeOS (OpenTracker has a number of forks that have SVG support) due to the icon size and relative lack of difficulty to parse them.

Re:you thought that went well?? (3, Informative)

Baba Ram Dass (1033456) | more than 7 years ago | (#18057344)

It's alpha software, meaning it's not feature complete (almost but not quite) and has loads of bugs. As someone who checks out the regular builds on a daily basis, the stability varies considerably from one revision to the next simply because of the rapid changes and development going on.

There's been days when it was more stable than Linux or Windows. Others when DOS seemed more useful. I'm guessing this just happened to be the performance of a lesser build.

The importance of HVI (which isn't strictly a form of SVG, but of vector graphics) is that an icon that would normally take several kilobytes in disk space consumes less than the size that's free on a typical BFS inode, allowing gorgeous graphics with no extra disk seeks required; it's quite a feat that other UIs should take note of.

All in all, it's very impressive what a handful of developers have managed to do in the last five years from scratch. It's going to be very exciting what happens in the next couple of years after R1 comes out.

Re:you thought that went well?? (1)

EachLennyAPenny (731871) | more than 7 years ago | (#18058678)

> The importance of HVI (which isn't strictly a form of SVG, but of vector graphics) is that an icon that would normally take several kilobytes in disk space consumes less than the size that's free on a typical BFS inode, allowing gorgeous graphics with no extra disk seeks required; it's quite a feat that other UIs should take note of.

Yeah, because if you're not cautious all those pesky icons will fill up your 300 GB harddisk very quickly.

mod up (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18053388)

Haikus are easy.... (5, Funny)

Viper_Viper (881780) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053408)

Haikus are easy
But sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator

Re:Haikus are easy.... (1)

k3vlar (979024) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053510)

I laughed my ass off when I first heard that one.

Re:Haikus are easy.... (1)

iPaul (559200) | more than 7 years ago | (#18055746)

Isn't it a rule that you have to include a crane or a flute?

This FP for GNAA (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18053566)

the w1nd aapeared

Back in the '90s ... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18053816)

Client-supplied disk,
both Linux and Windows failed.
BeOS read it just fine

(true story)

Look at the features listed (1, Troll)

Hackeron (704093) | more than 7 years ago | (#18053882)

* Focused on desktop, don't want to be a wristwatch
** So they believe in the future of desktops and not having a system that's built up of components but having a system designed for the desktop. Apple have their desktop OS running on a phone, Linux has been ported to just about anything under the sun, Microsoft have a stripped down version of their OS for phones and PDA but Haiku think they are better by focusing on desktop only -- mistake!
* Compatible with Beos R5
** As he said in the presentation, why focus so much on being compatible with a 6 year old OS? - Maybe an emulator for the sake of it, but this is a priority?
* Kernel designed for responsiveness
** Low latency means lower performance and that dig at Linux he made in the presentation is inaccurate - firstly, responsiveness depends on options chosen in the kernel, having the option of better performance over lower latency is a GOOD thing.
* Unified, cohensive interface integrated, simplicity is the key, best defaults, feature complete, 7 million lines of code, Hide inner workings of the OS
** blah, blah, blah
* MIT Licensed
** or X11 license, means you take the software, close source and sell it ;)
* Small footprint, fast boot
** 60MB uncompressed is not small, Linux even with X can be as small as 6MB uncompressed if that
* Less Debug - no need to test with FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, Multiple Linux kernels, Windows
** Absolute bullshit, he seems to encourage software to be made for their OS only, making it compatible with Linux, FreeBSD or Windows is a sin!
* Discourages forks and alternatives
** Err, discourages choice and how are they going to stop a fork if someone disagrees with their direction and say wants more choice.
* Human Interface Design
** err, hello? - freedesktop.org? - And what software and operating system doesn't focus on HID sooner or later?
* One common look makes documentation, support and QA easier
** 1 common look? communism anyone?
* C++ is the best for writing OS, best balance, faster dev
** I'm not even going to tackle this one
* Built for large files
** Err? code for the filesystem can't handle small files?
* Database like queries to find stuff
** Google desktop, beagle, spotlight, etc, etc, etc
* File mimetypes, no extensions needed
** Great, nautilus does this, just about any file manager can implement this easily if there's demand
* Kits, API centered around concept
** Errrr, gnome, kde, cocoa are all APIs with libraries centered around concept
* In response to how do we package management, we just drop executables
** This guy's on crack, either everything is statically compiled (BAD IDEA) or they must be able to handle their libraries somehow
* Includes all libraries by default
** Err, what happened to the small footprint? - and what about bug fixes? -- You fix a bus in a library and all software that uses it stops working - or you don't fix the library and end up with what windows is today staying backward compatible to bugs found 15 years ago.
* Serialized instances of Haiku applications
** err, dbus? -- And similar has been available for way over a decade: bonobo/cobra, kparts, etc
* Contacts/Emails stored in standard formats
** errr, mbox/maildir/ics(ical), old news
* New filetype with file Attributes
** No details and given example of using these to create a jazz album is stupid, you'd use compatible id3 tags.
* Add-Ons
** No details
* Applications scriptable
** Well, like windows 2000 scripting or like shell scripting? - Depends on what the author implements in the application either way...
* Virtual Memory Subsystem, File System Interface
** Sounds standard/archaic

Re:Look at the features listed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18053990)

So you spent all that time writing your little bullet-list response to enumarate your argument, which is:

This is not Linux.

No duh you can find many of the features listed in other systems. The problem is that many of them are either a) Nowhere near comparable b) Not integrated c) Crap.

You're just another armchair developer. Stop being such a fanboy and go investigate some of the issues you dismiss out of hand. Perhaps you'll learn something, but I won't hold my breath.

Re:Look at the features listed (1)

Hackeron (704093) | more than 7 years ago | (#18054080)

Please list any of those that are a) Nowhere near comparable b) Not integrated c) Crap -- Obviously you are not yet another armchair developer and have insight on this, we'd all love to hear it.

Re:Look at the features listed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18054202)

Sure thing, skippy.

  1. "Google desktop, beagle, spotlight, etc, etc, etc" are nothing like live filesystem queries and in-filesystem indexes.
  2. "nautilus [and] just about any file manager" do not provide file identifcation features in the same vein as BeOS, and mimetype-based file identifcation is certainly not integrated fully into Linux.
  3. "dbus..bonobo/cobra, kparts, etc" are nowhere near as flexible as proper object serialisation, nor are they anywhere near as integrated as in BeOS. If Bonobo or KParts where any good they wouldn't be being replaced with dbus. They also do not pre-date BeOS.
  4. Just because you don't understand extensible meta-data you can't simply dismiss the concept out of hand as "stupid". These are equivilent to POSIX xatrr() attributes but are more flexible and more integrated I.e. the meta-data can be fully indexed and queried (See point 1)
There are plenty more point I could pick up on but that would be boring and like shooting fish in a barral. As an example though, this comment:

"..having the option of better performance over lower latency is a GOOD thing."

Not in a desktop operating system. Would you like to explain to the class why?

Re:Look at the features listed (1)

Hackeron (704093) | more than 7 years ago | (#18054582)

  • "Google desktop, beagle, spotlight, etc, etc, etc" are nothing like live filesystem queries and in-filesystem indexes.
    Why would you use live filesystem queries when inotify in the kernel notifies of changes to the filesystem in realtime? - As for in-filesystem indexes, that can be accomplished with say a reiser4 plugin but there is a performance hit accessing the filesystem with additional attributes on files - It isn't like special attributes like ACL or what SELinux provides, it's just information
  • "nautilus [and] just about any file manager" do not provide file identification features in the same vein as BeOS, and mimetype-based file identifcation is certainly not integrated fully into Linux.
    File identification includes id3v2 tags, being able to understand media files and showing the bitrate, length, etc and all this is done by storing the information in the file itself and directory cache file for the directory, so OpenBeOS would potentially duplicate all that in filesystem meta-data? - What advantages does that have? -- Any additional meta-data would surely be a performance hit on the filesystem.
  • "dbus..bonobo/cobra, kparts, etc" are nowhere near as flexible as proper object serialisation, nor are they anywhere near as integrated as in BeOS. If Bonobo or KParts where any good they wouldn't be being replaced with dbus. They also do not pre-date BeOS.
    They were replaced by dbus because it was found to be better that bonobo and kparts - what I'm saying is a message bus should be a part of any operating system and mentioning that it's there doesn't really inspire awe. As for dbus, it seems like a solid message bus, where does it lack in terms of flexibility compared to what OpenBeOS uses?
  • Just because you don't understand extensible meta-data you can't simply dismiss the concept out of hand as "stupid". These are equivilent to POSIX xatrr() attributes but are more flexible and more integrated I.e. the meta-data can be fully indexed and queried (See point 1)
    I'm not saying extensible meta-data is stupid, I'm saying using it to manage your jazz collection is, would you really use extensible meta-data to manage your music collection? really?
I'll look into everything you've mentioned more closely, but I still don't see what OpenBeos offers that is in anyway better than Linux or any operating system and I wasn't trying to illustrate it's not Linux, but that what does it have that is unique and that makes it stand out and I still can't see what - I'll keep looking.

As for being a fan boy, I'm currently running Leopard (OSX), FreeBSD on my weaker laptop, have Ubuntu (Linux) on my HTPC, have Windows at work, run Solaris on a couple servers, and use various other smaller OSes found in switches, load balancers, etc -- I know Linux better than the rest so that's what I'm comparing OpenBeOS to.

Re:Look at the features listed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18054718)

Why would you use live filesystem queries when inotify in the kernel notifies of changes to the filesystem in realtime? - As for in-filesystem indexes, that can be accomplished with say a reiser4 plugin but there is a performance hit accessing the filesystem with additional attributes on files - It isn't like special attributes like ACL or what SELinux provides, it's just information

In filesystem meta-data, indexes and live queries are less of a hack. They are also faster and more reliable. Every inotify event requires a context switch into the user-space deamon, plus additional context switches as the deamon reads and writes data.

A Reiser4 plugin could be written, but BFS and BeOS already does this.

File identification includes id3v2 tags, being able to understand media files and showing the bitrate, length, etc and all this is done by storing the information in the file itself and directory cache file for the directory, so OpenBeOS would potentially duplicate all that in filesystem meta-data? - What advantages does that have? -- Any additional meta-data would surely be a performance hit on the filesystem.

For a start ID3 tags only apply to media files. The example in the Google talk may have been poor, but extensible meta data has far more application that duplicating ID3 tags. It doesn't impact filesystem performance on BFS because the meta data is a seperate data stream.

a message bus should be a part of any operating system and mentioning that it's there doesn't really inspire awe

They wern't doing it to "inspire awe" but now you mention it, BeOS had these capabilities long before Linux did. BeOS is designed around serialised message passing, something that Linux and the various desktop environments are only just starting to do. It will be a very long time, possibly never, before Linux ever matches BeOS here.

I'm not saying extensible meta-data is stupid, I'm saying using it to manage your jazz collection is, would you really use extensible meta-data to manage your music collection? really?

If the functionality to manage that meta-data was a core part of my operating system I'd be stupid not too.

I know Linux better than the rest so that's what I'm comparing OpenBeOS to.

You'd do better to compare it to OS X, particularly as they are both designed to be desktop OSes. Linux may be Jack of all trades, but it is not master of them all.

Re:Look at the features listed (1)

Hackeron (704093) | more than 7 years ago | (#18054708)

Oh, sorry, didn't comment on the last bit:

"..having the option of better performance over lower latency is a GOOD thing."

Not in a desktop operating system. Would you like to explain to the class why?
I'm running Linux on an AMD3000+ set to higher performance over lower latency so it can play 720P media - the 10-15% overhead for lower latency is enough to make a difference between lagging in high motion scenes and not lagging in high motion scenes.

That's a bit of a unique case, but what about gaming, graphics design, 3d modeling - pretty much anything that isn't sound engineering and running many CPU intensive applications while listening to music and not wanting the music to lag?

Also, when you say low latency, how low is low? - If you need to record sound, you may want to look into a realtime (just in time) kernel even though the performance hit can be up to 30%.

Re:Look at the features listed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18055236)

"So they believe in the future of desktops and not having a system that's built up of components but having a system designed for the desktop. Apple have their desktop OS running on a phone, Linux has been ported to just about anything under the sun, Microsoft have a stripped down version of their OS for phones and PDA but Haiku think they are better by focusing on desktop only -- mistake!"

Mistake? How so you figure? How does Linux's (for example) ability to run on non-desktop devices make it a better DESKTOP system? If the idea is to make Haiku strictly a destop OS, then focusing strickly on the desktop makescomplete sense.

"** As he said in the presentation, why focus so much on being compatible with a 6 year old OS? - Maybe an emulator for the sake of it, but this is a priority?"

It was inspired by BeOS. BeOS was a pretty badass OS in its time, people still develoip for it, and there's a respectable amount of applications availible for the platform. Binary compatability is always better than emulation, especially if you're focused on performance. Besides, people, in the day, loved BeOS, they loved the way it was designed, how fast and responsive it was, this seems and aweful lot like a thinly veiled "why beos, and not linux" question. That's why.

"** Low latency means lower performance and that dig at Linux he made in the presentation is inaccurate - firstly, responsiveness depends on options chosen in the kernel, having the option of better performance over lower latency is a GOOD thing."

Many would prefer increased responsiveness. Also, if I recall correctly, in the Linux Kernel, the latency settings place performance/server on one end of the spectrum, and responsiveness/desktop on the other. Haiku is built strictly for the desktop. Do the math.

"** or X11 license, means you take the software, close source and sell it ;)"

Otherwise known as unrestricted freedom. That's the idea :).

"** 60MB uncompressed is not small, Linux even with X can be as small as 6MB uncompressed if that"

60MB uncompressed for a *desktop* OS (meaning not bare bones) is pretty damn small.

"** Absolute bullshit, he seems to encourage software to be made for their OS only, making it compatible with Linux, FreeBSD or Windows is a sin!"

Why would they need to debug their applications which are built for Haiku, for other OSes? I dunno about you, if I want to run BSD stuff, I'll use my BSD install, and if I want to run windows stuff, I'll use my windows install. Omitting unecessary debugging stuff cuts down code bloat. Remember, portability isn't their objective.

"** Err, discourages choice and how are they going to stop a fork if someone disagrees with their direction and say wants more choice."

The choice to not use Haiku is always there.

"** err, hello? - freedesktop.org? - And what software and operating system doesn't focus on HID sooner or later?"

Err, hello? That's why they're focusing on HID from the get go?

"** 1 common look? communism anyone?"

For the sake of better Documentation and QA. Again, Haiku isn't designed to be be everything under the sun.

"** I'm not even going to tackle this one"

They prefer C++. So what?

"** Err? code for the filesystem can't handle small files?"

That isn't what "built for large files" means. It just means its built to handle larger files, and handle them well. Much like Reiser was built chiefly for small files (that's were it shines in performace tests), and XFS is built for large files (conversely outperforming the former in this regard). Desktop machines tend to have bunches of larger files.

"** Google desktop, beagle, spotlight, etc, etc, etc"

You seem to have missed the part about database queries.

"** Great, nautilus does this, just about any file manager can implement this easily if there's demand"

And other filemanagers did this before Nautilus, point being? Its a good feature to have, that's why its being incorporated.

"** Errrr, gnome, kde, cocoa are all APIs with libraries centered around concept"

Again, its a good thing to have, so they will have it. You're missing the point, again.

"** This guy's on crack, either everything is statically compiled (BAD IDEA) or they must be able to handle their libraries somehow"

I'm guessing its something akin to how windows or OSX do it. Imho, dll hell hasn't existed since 9x, and OSX dmg has never given me trouble.

"** Err, what happened to the small footprint? - and what about bug fixes? -- You fix a bus in a library and all software that uses it stops working - or you don't fix the library and end up with what windows is today staying backward compatible to bugs found 15 years ago."

What makes you think they'll need eleventy billion libs that do the same thing, like Linux has? and I'm not quite catching the point here, not fixing bugs is bad, okay. But fixing them is bad. too? Are you sure he's the one smoking crack?

"** err, dbus? -- And similar has been available for way over a decade: bonobo/cobra, kparts, etc"

Err, another good feature to have, and so it makes complete sense to have it?

"** errr, mbox/maildir/ics(ical), old news"

Again.

"** errr, mbox/maildir/ics(ical), old news"

and again.

So what's your point? Exactly?

Re:Look at the features listed (1)

izomiac (815208) | more than 7 years ago | (#18056132)

For most of those you seem to be missing the point. Haiku is designed to be a successor to BeOS. Many BeOS users (current and past) have used or now use other OSes, but haven't seen the things they liked about the BeOS present in them. That's why there's a need for Haiku. There is the Cosmoe Project [cosmoe.com] that seeks to make Linux more like the BeOS, but personally I'm placing my hopes with Haiku (although I expect Cosmoe & Haiku can improve each other). That said, there are a few of your comments that I'd like to address.

* Focused on desktop, don't want to be a wristwatch
** So they believe in the future of desktops and not having a system that's built up of components but having a system designed for the desktop. Apple have their desktop OS running on a phone, Linux has been ported to just about anything under the sun, Microsoft have a stripped down version of their OS for phones and PDA but Haiku think they are better by focusing on desktop only -- mistake!


Haiku is designed to be a desktop OS. Not a server OS, or an embedded OS. Other OSes do that, and they do it well enough that there isn't a whole lot of need to compete with them in those areas. There are also trade-offs, so Haiku is aiming to be specialized toward the Desktop, not a Jack-of-all-trades.

* Compatible with Beos R5
** As he said in the presentation, why focus so much on being compatible with a 6 year old OS? - Maybe an emulator for the sake of it, but this is a priority?


Because much of the potential userbase is currently running BeOS R5.0.3 or R5.1 or Zeta. Many parts of Haiku have even been ported (if necessary) to run in BeOS R5. Parts like the Mail Daemon and ShowImage. Binary compatibility also ensures a fairly easy transition from BeOS/Zeta to Haiku, and that means that Haiku will have a fair amount of software available immediately. Many older BeOS apps are also closed-source (with the authors incommunicado), so binary compatibility is kind-of a big deal. Haiku R1 aims to be very similar to BeOS R5, Haiku R2 - Glass Elevator may break application compatibility.

* Kernel designed for responsiveness
** Low latency means lower performance and that dig at Linux he made in the presentation is inaccurate - firstly, responsiveness depends on options chosen in the kernel, having the option of better performance over lower latency is a GOOD thing.


I assume you haven't used the BeOS. Its speed will spoil you. Whenever I have to use Linux and Windows the speed difference becomes obvious. It isn't major, just annoying. Things like folders taking one second to open instead of a tenth of a second. Or applications that start essentially instantaneously. As a desktop user I don't really care that such responsiveness causes a small hit in performance, I'm not running a MySQL database or serving webpages in x milliseconds.

* Small footprint, fast boot
** 60MB uncompressed is not small, Linux even with X can be as small as 6MB uncompressed if that


True, Linux can be small, but the desktop distros usually aren't. They also tend to have a boot time on the order of minutes, while BeOS (and I assume Haiku) has it on the order of seconds. I.e. on the same machine it's not uncommon for BeOS to boot in ~7 seconds (ready to launch Firefox), and Linux to take 2 minutes. I'm sure you could reduce the Linux boot time, but even on my GP2X it still takes 14 seconds, and that's not loading network stuff or other things.

* Less Debug - no need to test with FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, Multiple Linux kernels, Windows
** Absolute bullshit, he seems to encourage software to be made for their OS only, making it compatible with Linux, FreeBSD or Windows is a sin!


Yet another way BeOS is different. BeOS isn't entirely posix compatible. Virtually all non-trivial programs are multi-threaded, and BeOS uses it's own version of threads. It's related to the responsiveness of the BeOS (and presumably Haiku). Also, BeOS applications tend to be far smaller than their Windows or Linux equivalents. I'm not a serious programmer (I do perl, but nothing I write is much larger than a few kilobytes), so I couldn't tell you why BeOS applications tend to be different, they just are. Ported applications tend to be similar in size to what they are in other OSes, but they tend to be behemoths and rather slow (compared to "native" BeOS applications, though the same speed as on other OSes).

* One common look makes documentation, support and QA easier
** 1 common look? communism anyone?


While I don't entirely agree with this decision, I don't think it's without merit. 99% of Windows machines look the same (I loved seeing people's baffled expressions when I used to run Litestep). This seems to make things easier for less experienced users. It also helps advertise the OS. I.e. Windows screenshots are recognizable, as are MacOS ones. Linux screenshots, not so much. But yeah, R1 is designed to be like BeOS R5 which allows some, but not entire interface tweaking (essentially as much as Windows + WindowBlinds).

* Database like queries to find stuff
** Google desktop, beagle, spotlight, etc, etc, etc


Not even close to the same animal. I can make a tracker query with all of my e-mails from a certain person for the last week, and put that folder on my desktop. If said person sends me an e-mail, it immediately appears in that folder (even if I have it open). There's also the time frame. BeOS queries tend to happen in under a second, unless there are a huge number of results. On the other hand, queries don't look at file contents, just their metadata. So the things you mentioned and Tracker Queries are not really the same thing, though they are a bit similar.

* File mimetypes, no extensions needed
** Great, nautilus does this, just about any file manager can implement this easily if there's demand


File manager != whole OS. Applications don't associate themselves with .jpg files, they associate themselves with "Image/JPEG" (or more likely just "Image"). Filename extensions are just used to determine the likely MIME type if a file lacks one. Also, take images for example. Image applications are often completely ignorant of the type of file they're working with. For instance, say I have a .png file with a MIME type of "Image/PNG" (I'm too lazy to see if that's what it actually would be, and as a BeOS user I don't really need to know such things off the top of my head). If my system has never seen such a MIME type, it'll still try to open it in an image browser. If I have a PNG file translator (system-wide BTW) then any of my image viewers can open it. I can work with my files without those annoying extensions (even in the command-line, though one rarely if ever needs to use such a thing).

* In response to how do we package management, we just drop executables
** This guy's on crack, either everything is statically compiled (BAD IDEA) or they must be able to handle their libraries somehow


Yes, everything is statically compiled. Typical application install time is about 40 seconds. Most applications don't need any libraries installed (they use system translators to read and write certain files for instance). But, if an executable does need a certain version of a library, then it can include it. I.e. the application is located in /boot/apps/Whatever/Executable and any specialized libraries can be in /boot/apps/Whatever/libs/. The OS searches for libraries in that directory first, the user lib directory second, and the system lib directory third. You can add new libraries (or drivers) while the OS is booted, so you essentially never need to reboot to install something. A typical application install generally consists of a package (a .zip file with instructions on where to place the binaries), a zipped application directory, a zipped folder with an install script, or a zipped folder with symbolic links named things like "Drag libsvg.so here".

* Includes all libraries by default
** Err, what happened to the small footprint? - and what about bug fixes? -- You fix a bus in a library and all software that uses it stops working - or you don't fix the library and end up with what windows is today staying backward compatible to bugs found 15 years ago.


There isn't much redundancy due to system translators, and everything is object oriented, so fixing a bug usually doesn't break application compatibility. In fact, in about four years of using the BeOS, I can't ever recall anything breaking due to a newer library being installed. Just one of those things that I have little to no idea of how it "just works", but it makes me dislike using other OSes.

* Contacts/Emails stored in standard formats
** errr, mbox/maildir/ics(ical), old news


Old new yes. But I have yet to see another OS do this as well as the BeOS. A People file or an E-mail can be located anywhere on any BeFS volume and opened by any mail client without importing or conversion. I.e. each e-mail client does not keep its own mail directory or store e-mail in its own format. E-mail is also searchable by Tracker Queries, meaning that you can have a virtual folder of all e-mail received in the last week. You can open any of these e-mails in anything that can read them (BeMail, StyledEdit, Firefox, etc.).

* New filetype with file Attributes
** No details and given example of using these to create a jazz album is stupid, you'd use compatible id3 tags.


No, you'd convert the ID3 tags into metadata when you downloaded the file. That way it's universal with any type of audio, video, or any other type of file. For instance, say I wanted to record my lectures. My MP3 player records them as .wav files. I add the metadata item "Class" at that point, and set it to the class name. Later I can convert them to .mp3 and my custom metadata stays with it (well, ideally, it depends on the converter). When I want to study for the final I can do a tracker query for anything in that class and all of those files pop up. Along with my lecture notes, papers, contacts, e-mails, bookmarks, and anything else related to that class. After all, my word processor tends not to add ID3 tags to my papers. And it's a little hard to add custom things to programs like Google Desktop or Spotlight (I assume since I don't use Macs).

Mod parent Troll (1)

petrus4 (213815) | more than 7 years ago | (#18056250)

I don't have points currently or I'd do it myself.

Long live BeOS! (1)

Huxley_Dunsany (659554) | more than 7 years ago | (#18054446)

As someone who recently bought a used BeBox (dual-66mHz PPC 603) on eBay, I'm really happy to see that there's still life in the BeOS/Haiku scene. Such a fun and powerful OS shouldn't just disappear without a sound. Huxley

Enough (1)

Polly_Morf (868942) | more than 7 years ago | (#18055196)

"It's enough with the freakin' nerdy Haiku poems, you faggots! It isnt even funny." That's exactly what I would have said if I hadnt read them and laughed...

Same obstacle to any alternative OS (2, Insightful)

Stormwatch (703920) | more than 7 years ago | (#18055788)

Well, technically

Haiku may be fantastic

but to run what apps?

Re:Same obstacle to any alternative OS (1)

Trogre (513942) | more than 7 years ago | (#18058554)

What's fantastic about it?
There's nothing particularly special, rhythmic or even remotely clever about making a haiku.
Look I'll invent a new way to achieve Zen:

7 syllables
27 syllables
11 syllables

There, now the top three lines of this post display a mastery of the ancient art of Trogru.

Argh (0, Troll)

John Nowak (872479) | more than 7 years ago | (#18055968)

Someone say SOMETHING interesting, please!

Re:Argh (0, Troll)

Stormwatch (703920) | more than 7 years ago | (#18057982)

Someone say SOMETHING interesting, please!

You want us to say
but just what do you regard
as interesting?

Re:Argh (1)

Stormwatch (703920) | more than 7 years ago | (#18058442)

I have been modded
as a troll but I don't know
what I have done wrong!

When I first tried BeOS [caution - nostalgia] (2, Interesting)

iPaul (559200) | more than 7 years ago | (#18056020)

It was something really neat. What blew me away with BeOS 4.5 (I think that was the first Intel build), was being able to run 3 windows of video simultaneously (same 350Mhz PII running win95 could handle 1 window of video). I could spin multiple GL teapots in different windows with really crisp performance. And it worked really well with my Haupage capture card, no dropped frames. In the modern world of 100 fps, texture mapped, highly accelerated OpenGL/DirectX games that's not much of an accomplishment. On 1997-ish hardware, however, it was an accomplishment.

Compared to Win32 API, MFC and Macintosh Toolbox the API was fairly clean and simple. In fairly short order I wrote a native C++ app (as an exercise for the reader) that read in image files and broke it into R, G and B channels with histogram plots. I could then lower/raise the intensity of each channel. It could read in just about any format (jpg, gif, tiff, and some other odd-balls). In addition the app was safely multi-threaded. It was a piece of cake. Compared to my beloved Mac (on which I learned C), it was completely painless. Version 5.0 and 6.0 were going to have a lot of great, new features that were giving MS a real run for their money.

That was nearly 10 years ago. GUIs have progressed since then. I forked out the dough for Zeta - on a nostalgia kick - six months or so ago. It just didn't have the features I expect from a modern OS. When Be went belly up (remember MS had such a tight lock on OEMs Be literally couldn't give their OS away) time seems to have stopped for the BeOS. I didn't bother installing it on real hardware - just on VMware. I played around with it for a couple of days and then needed the disk space for something else. Haven't touched it since.

Well, I hope the Haiku guys have a lot of fun with their project and other users get a chance to play with what I still think is a really neat operating system.

Re:When I first tried BeOS [caution - nostalgia] (1)

mlk (18543) | more than 7 years ago | (#18057476)

BeOS 4.5 (I think that was the first Intel build)
3 was the first Intel build. (I have the box in my cupboard).

Something which I find interesting... (0, Troll)

petrus4 (213815) | more than 7 years ago | (#18056344)

...is that around here it seems to be the articles about other operating systems which attract the most trolls, incoherent offtopic posts, lame, unfunny attempts at humour, and other such rubbish.

I've noticed how much flotsam is usually attached to articles about *BSD releases in particular, and now a story about Haiku seems to be attracting a fair amount of drek as well.

Maybe this is just the paranoid conspiracy theorist in me, but I'm suspecting that my nemeses on Slashdot, the perennial GNU/cultists, feel an urgent need to try and make sure than any operating system in existence other than Linux is discredited/trashed to the point that nobody will dream of using it, thus continuing the work that their unholy Messiah began in slandering the BSD license.

If one of the faithful are willing to indulge me, would you also be willing to explain how the word "freedom" is in fact *not* a mere euphemism in this case?

Yet another (1)

Hamoohead (994058) | more than 7 years ago | (#18056348)

Waiting for Haiku
Seems like an eternity
So much anxiety

Last line has 6 syllables (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18058304)

Maybe it should be

Waiting for Haiku
Seems like an eternity
Much anxiety


for proper "haiku" form (5 syllables in first line, 7 syllables in middle line, 5 syllables in last line)

No, Really... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18056586)

Can you really dress that way for a presentation on the Google campus? I'm being serious, not flaming anyone. I just wasn't expecting that when I clicked on the pics link.

French-English (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18057512)

Mr Gasse says in the video that his English is not very good. Did anyone else notice that despite this, he seems to pronounce "Haiku" quite well? In my experience, native French speakers who make the effort to learn English often cannot pronounce hard "H" sounds. I had a boss who was French (lovely person, very nice man) and he was speaking English for at least 20 years and would still say "ospital", "otel", "ard", etc. since that "H" is very difficult for French speakers.

I always appreciate people who make the effort to learn English - my French is nearly passable, but not great. Spending time in France or New Caledonia, or somewhere else is the best way to pick it up. Does Jean Louis Gasse live in USA or Britain, or somewhere English-speaking?

GNNA Post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18057772)

GNAA post:
Random off-topic spamming
And links to goatse [goatse.ch] .
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>