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One Third of Germans Support National Socialism (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18078116)

One Third of Germans Support National Socialism, Disbelieve Holocaust
New Poll Shows Jewish Power On Wane Despite Repressive Laws

2/19/2007 10:07:28 AM
Discuss this story in the forum
Overthrow Staff

Berlin, Germany -- One third of Germans say that National Socialism and Adolf Hitler were "mostly positive" for Germany and "Entirely Disbelieve" the Holocaust lie, whereas a majority think Hitler was mostly positive and 45% think that the Holocaust is mostly untrue, a new poll of 3,000 Germans by the Metropol Institute indicates.

55% of Germans said that Hitler and National Socialism were "mostly positive" or "a mix of positive and negative" for Germany and 45% said that they either "had reservations" or "disbelieved entirely" the Jewish claim that a "Holocaust" occurred during World War II. Germans hold these beliefs despite repressive legislation in Germany that makes it illegal to advocate National Socialism or disbelieve in the Holocaust.

An additional 85% of Germans said that "reparations" payments to the Zionist occupation in Palestine should terminate an 53% that Holocaust lies should not longer be taught in German schools, with 26% uncertain and only 21% in favor.

The poll, taken last week in response to the Zundel imprisonment, had a margin of error of 2.1%. It was unclear if it had yet been reported on in the German press, who comissioned it.

The poll shows the ineffectiveness of Jewish lies and repressive legislation on the thoughts of the people. While the Jewish owned and influence media, combined with the power of the German state, has been able to achieve complete control of the government while arresting and imprisoning political dissident, their brainwashing has had little impact on the actual thoughts and beliefs of the people.

-----

Emailed to you by:

Overthrow.com / White Politics, LLC

Re:One Third of Germans Support National Socialism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18079574)

One third of Germans say that National Socialism and Adolf Hitler were "mostly positive" for Germany and "Entirely Disbelieve" the Holocaust lie, whereas a majority think Hitler was mostly positive and 45% think that the Holocaust is mostly untrue, a new poll of 3,000 Germans by the Metropol Institute indicates.
I've been living in germany for more than 2 years already and I really doubt this... I've not found any single person that would agree with this...

Can become outdated fast (4, Insightful)

aliatgb (997100) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078118)

The site is a good idea in theory but I would not recommend anyone to a site like this one for fear that they could be downloading outdated drivers since the manufactures site lists the current ones anyway. Its really not that hard to find drivers for your hardware from the manufactures site anyway and its not like this site lists anything out of the ordinary or hard to find.

Re:Can become outdated fast (3, Insightful)

deft (253558) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078198)

the problem is right now that these can't be found. And, they may be linking to pages that are updated themselves.

so, whent he problem that they cant be found is outdated, you wont have to go to this site anyways. i dont think this is intended to do anything but address the current problem.

Re:Can become outdated fast (2, Interesting)

this great guy (922511) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079076)

Its really not that hard to find drivers for your hardware from the manufactures site

Would grandma be able to do that ? Looks like not even that supposedly easy-to-use OS is really that easy after all...

Re:Can become outdated fast (4, Interesting)

iamacat (583406) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079228)

While I hate Windows, I actually wish this problem was not so easy for Microsoft to solve. Since they are signing all drivers, they could just determine device's PCI/USB/etc signature and fetch the driver from their website. The problem is that now all the hardware in the world can only be created with Microsoft's approval, which is way too much control for a single company.

Re:Can become outdated fast (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18080472)

"The problem is that now all the hardware in the world can only be created with Microsoft's approval, which is way too much control for a single company."

... You mean like Mac OS X which will only install on specific hardware and only uses their own drivers (for the most part). Not sure why you're complaining. It's true that quite a bit of crashes (bsods) occur on windows due to crappy drivers. I don't see why Microsoft shouldn't regulate the quality of the drivers that are introduced into the operating system that they made. But whether their approval process is up to snuff is another question that should be considered. This isn't like open source drivers, where if a problem is found some kind soul will fix the problem within a week or so.

Re:Can become outdated fast (5, Insightful)

echo_kmem (982727) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079218)

Its really not that hard to find drivers for your hardware from the manufactures site anyway
I would see that to be the case when buying whole systems from HP, Dell, Etc. Just as much the same if you buy Brand name parts all the time. But when you work on machines for people who go cheaper and buy off-brand name equipment, then you start spending Hours looking for a driver for their sound card. Also, as another Comment said here, This list appears to serve to point out a problem with the OS than a way for Consumers to easily find Drivers.

Re:Can become outdated fast (3, Informative)

empaler (130732) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079414)

I'm sorry to say that yesterday I had to resort to such a site to get my Lexmark x1130 drivers. I just couldn't get to them on Lexmark's site, and I didn't have time to horse around.
In Lexmark's defence, I'd just like to say that the site seemed slowed, possibly by DOS attacks. Either that or they suck.
At any rate, I ain't getting me another Lexmark any time soon - too bad for them, as I'm in the market for a fast document scanner... (Any good ideas? :-P )

Re:Can become outdated fast (3, Informative)

jackharrer (972403) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080024)

I updated my friends desktop (HP Pavillion) with Vista. There were no drivers for AC'97! They got to be joking!
At least HP has shown they care and I was able to download them from their site. Plus ATI drivers that hardly worked, and some minor problems with WIFI (detected as something totally different, but worked!).
I had less problems with Mandriva on my new laptop. Everything worked out of the box. Including Compiz and Xgl.

Good news for competition (5, Funny)

JPMaximilian (948958) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078124)

This is good news for Linux and OS X. Installing Drivers is so 1998.

Re:Good news for competition (4, Insightful)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078290)

This is good news for Linux and OS X. Installing Drivers is so 1998.

Yes, because no one ever has trouble getting a wifi card to work under Linux. Or printer drivers working under OSX. In fact, surprising though it may be to you, getting drivers to work is often one of the biggest difficulties of installing Linux. And sure, OSX comes with drivers for all the Apple hardware, but if you have some weird piece of proprietary hardware, there is a good possibility you won't ever find a driver for it.

As for Windows Vista, I hope it falls on it's face or at least loses 30% market share, leaving the rest for OSX, linux, openbsd, solaris, and a beautiful world of open standards and interoperability. Or at least giving people more freedom to leave windows if they need to.

Re:Good news for competition (0, Flamebait)

JPMaximilian (948958) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078440)

This is good news for Linux and OS X. Installing Drivers is so 1998.

Yes, because no one ever has trouble getting a wifi card to work under Linux. Or printer drivers working under OSX. In fact, surprising though it may be to you, getting drivers to work is often one of the biggest difficulties of installing Linux.

Your dripping sarcasm is tiresome, however you make a point. I do know how difficult it can be to get a wireless card to work. However, the point is, many distros, such as Ubuntu, require 0 drivers to install (depending on your hardware). On my desktop the only drivers I would have had to install were video drivers if I wanted 3d acceleration. My point is, if Vista is more difficult to setup than Linux (certainly it's more difficult than OS X), there is a greater chance of end users trying out the alternatives.

Re:Good news for competition (5, Insightful)

nmb3000 (741169) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078602)

However, the point is, many distros, such as Ubuntu, require 0 drivers to install (depending on your hardware).

Do you have any idea how ironic this sentence is? OF COURSE it depends on your hardware! I bet you could find a hardware configuration that will work completely off Vista's native driver cache as well, especially if you're happy with vanilla video and sound support.

On my desktop the only drivers I would have had to install were video drivers if I wanted 3d acceleration.

Anymore 3D acceleration is pretty much a must-have. Especially with newfangled things like Aero and XGL becoming the norm. Even basic tasks like moving windows around perform much, much better with acceleration.

(certainly it's more difficult than OS X)

I bet if Microsoft made all their own hardware and then locked people into only using Vista on said hardware, it would be easy as pie to get Vista configured for the hardware. What an idea! Except, of course, that the whole idea behind the PC is open hardware standards, vendor competition, and consumer choice.

Honestly, the way Windows (and Linux to a large extent, though it's vendor base is significantly smaller than Windows) manages to interoperate with hundreds of thousands of different vendor's drivers is pretty impressive. It's one thing to claim stability when 95% consumer configurations are identical to your test bench, it's another to have no idea what kind of cheap crazy crap consumers will install and still have comparable stability.

Re:Good news for competition (2, Insightful)

Hucko (998827) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078730)

The Xbox did work reasonably well. I haven't downloaded an update for it though. I was going to 'correct' this

I bet if Microsoft made all their own hardware and then locked people into only using Vista on said hardware, it would be easy as pie to get Vista configured for the hardware. What an idea! Except, of course, that the whole idea behind the PC is open hardware standards, vendor competition, and consumer choice.
however I realised MS does compile reasonably good hardware.

Honestly, the way Windows (and Linux to a large extent, though it's vendor base is significantly smaller than Windows) manages to interoperate with hundreds of thousands of different vendor's drivers is pretty impressive. It's one thing to claim stability when 95% consumer configurations are identical to your test bench, it's another to have no idea what kind of cheap crazy crap consumers will install and still have comparable stability.
Huh? Windows only installs on x86 machines. I'm having trouble remembering anything of significance linux won't run on, at least to some degree. I'm sure someone will remind me. While there may be more installs of Windows out there, linux works on more configurations. Most of the installs would work reasonably well with linux. Installing new hardware sometimes does bring the horror you describe.

Except, of course, that the whole idea behind the PC is open hardware standards, vendor competition, and consumer choice.
If there were truth to this, linux would have less trouble working with the devices previously named. It works well enough in spite of little to no co-operation by the "open standards" of the PC. If linux had half the co-operation Microsoft has, the driver situation would be less prevalent. Vendor competition and consumer choice has helped, I'll give you that. Generosity of developers has too.

Re:Good news for competition (1)

Mattsson (105422) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080086)

I don't understand.
He was saying that Apple work better than MS or Linux because they only support their own hardware and that if MS only needed to support MS-made hardware (like apple) they'd too be more stable.
He also said that it is amazing how MS and Linux can be so stable with all the millions of different hardware-combinations they run...
What has that to do with how Linux compares to MS?
And even though Linux do run on lots of architectures, the sheer amount of x86-hardware out there and the incredible "Nr of installed MS-OS vs Nr of installed Linux"-ration might actually make the number of unique combinations of hardware with an MS-OS installed larger than the unique combinations that has Linux installed.

And I'd say that the standard x86-architecture is pretty open. No weird "Microsoft-bus" anywhere that only lets you install Microsoft-hardware or graphics-cards that only will work with a certain motherboard-vendor, etc.
That certain hardware-designers choose not to release specifications on their chips doesn't make the entire architecture proprietary, like Apple, Sun, Silicon-Graphics, Atari, Amiga, etc, etc...
The only really proprietary, non-open piece in a standard x86 PC is the processor-socket. You can either go Intel or AMD and have to decide this when you buy your mainboard.

Re:Good news for competition (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080172)

Honestly, the way Windows ... manages to interoperate with hundreds of thousands of different vendor's drivers is pretty impressive.


Honestly, I'm not so impressed. It is their business after all, and they're one of the biggest companies (monopolies) in the world, so why should I be impressed that their flagship product mostly works with other products that were designed for it?

Re:Good news for competition (-1, Troll)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078756)

If Vista's built in drivers are anything like XP's then most computers will have no usb, limited network (e.g. gigabit), no sound, bad video and no support for any non-necessary hardware.

With Linux its the opposite. Most of that will work out of the box.

Re:Good news for competition (2, Informative)

flimflammer (956759) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079166)

I don't know about you, but every machine I have ever installed XP has had USB, some decent amount of sound (it really varies on your sound card, but it's been my experience that it'll usually work), and networking out of the box. "Bad video" as it may, is not necessarily less present in Linux. I've installed a few distros only to have pretty crappy desktop performance out of the box.

Re:Good news for competition (1)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079280)

My old Pentium 3 has a standard Intel motherboard which was made ages before XP.
None of the above worked.

All of it is pretty standard stuff and all of it was made a long time before XP.
AC97 audio, Intel usb controller, Broadcom networking, TNT2, etc...

It got rather interesting with reinstalls since back then it had USB wireless for networking.
You have no idea how useful usb flash disks are until you cant use them.
Any reinstall required a very long search for the original cd.

Funnily enough ALL the mentioned hardware works out of the box with minimal tinkering on Linux.
Yes even the USB wifi.

So, what you're saying... (2, Funny)

empaler (130732) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079534)

... is that an OS from 2001 does not have the same level of hardware support as a freshly weeded Linux distro?
Microsoft, you bastards!

Re:Good news for competition (1)

iamacat (583406) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079260)

Especially with newfangled things like Aero and XGL becoming the norm. Even basic tasks like moving windows around perform much, much better with acceleration.

Sounds like bad coding to me. Despite fancy appearance, windows are still 2D and the notion that a Core Duo can not blend a megapixel of data with its background seems preposterous.

Re:Good news for competition (1)

empaler (130732) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079522)

I bet if Microsoft made all their own hardware and then locked people into only using Vista on said hardware, it would be easy as pie to get Vista configured for the hardware. What an idea! Except, of course, that the whole idea behind the PC is open hardware standards, vendor competition, and consumer choice.

Honestly, the way Windows (and Linux to a large extent, though it's vendor base is significantly smaller than Windows) manages to interoperate with hundreds of thousands of different vendor's drivers is pretty impressive. It's one thing to claim stability when 95% consumer configurations are identical to your test bench, it's another to have no idea what kind of cheap crazy crap consumers will install and still have comparable stability.
This just makes it so much more fun that I had trouble getting my wireless Microsoft Keyboard/Mouse set to work in Vista... I had to force drivers on it that weren't released for Vista (but works fine). By force, I mean simple edits in install INFs, but still not market-ready.

Re:Good news for competition (1)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080386)

This surprises me a little bit. Are you saying that the keyboard and mouse did not work at all or simply that the extra functions (like side scrolling and media buttons) didn't work?

Re:Good news for competition (1)

xtracto (837672) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080008)

I have been gladly surprised a few days ago by a Ubuntu installation I have in a P3-450Mhz where I installed it (found in the trash of a neighbour =o)). When I installed it *almost* everything went smoothly. However I had problems with the ethernet LAN card (no, not he wifi) because the interface seemed to go up for some seconds and then died. It turned to be that there were 2 drivers loaded in the kernel *for the same hardware*. That was stupid, but at the end it was just a matter of unloading the driver.

But that was not my pleasant surprise, the good thing happened after I bought a Canon Lide 20 scanner (a pretty nice piece of hardware for the £20) and, after connecting it to the USB port of the Ubuntu machine and starting thinking "ok, I will go to the forums and search for any information about the drivers to see where shall I download them..." I had a very pleasant surprise to see that the scanner *just worked* it was recognized and I could use it with Ubuntu's scanning program (sorry, I dont know the name, and that, i think is something better.... and no it was not the Gimp). This meant that the Operating system did not blocked my way in any way.

On the other side, when I plugged the scanner to my Windows XP (SP2 top notch bla blah) notebook, windows detected the "piece of plastic" plugged trough the USB, and then the "hardware installation wizard" appeared and asked me if I wanted to look on the internet for the drivers, after answering yes, Windows told me that it didn't have drivers and it could not do anything else with my piece of plastic. Crap... I needed the installation disk, but the problem is that the installation disk installs too much crap. And how can it be that, in the sucker-without-drivers-Linux OS I did not have any trouble and the top-notch-uber-cool-grandma-eXperIence-Windows could not recognize a simple scanner that has been out more than two years?

So yeah pretty much it depends on the hardware but if you see, a default Windows installation does not *provide* all the hardware drivers, just look at the list of available drivers when you try to install one (manually install device/select from a list/list all devices) and you will see whereas Linux supports a *huge* number of them *out of the box* (any standard Desktop aimed distro).

Honestly, the way Windows (and Linux to a large extent, though it's vendor base is significantly smaller than Windows) manages to interoperate with hundreds of thousands of different vendor's drivers is pretty impressive.
It is impressive that Windows even *works* with the way drivers are done. Of course the Windows driver for my scanner is completely crap [stability wise] whereas the Linux driver is very stable... unfortunately with some other hardware there are lots of features that the linux drivers just do not have (like my Logitech webcam for notebooks deluxe ).

Re:Good news for competition (2, Insightful)

skoaldipper (752281) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078830)

> As for Windows Vista, I hope it falls on it's face or at least loses 30% market share, leaving the rest for OSX, linux, openbsd, solaris, and a beautiful world of open standards and interoperability.

It would be nice, but I think that 30 percent drop would just translate to 30 percent fewer people migrating away from XP. Old habits are hard to break, especially consumer loyalty tied to one product in the big bad boogeyman world of technology. I think our one saving grace here is the push by many governments and corporations to gradually phase in desktop alternatives. That's the cheapest and most influential form of advertising out there. And, you know, if media codecs just weren't so dog gone closely tied to Microsoft on the internet, I bet a lot of us freaky deekies could care less if anyone else switched to linux or not; it's like finding your own gold mine in the New Mexico desert while all the prospectors are still out in California. But I sure do get tired of digging around cactus and rattlesnakes at times when everyone else already has a mine. You know, I'm even starting to confuse myself with this analogy so I better stop right here, but hopefully, I did make some sense along the way.

Re:Good news for competition (1)

evilviper (135110) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079458)

getting drivers to work is often one of the biggest difficulties of installing Linux.

Well then it's a good thing I use FreeBSD. *ducks*

Re:Good news for competition (0, Flamebait)

wfWebber (715881) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078804)

No no, you got that mixed up. Most the drivers you see in Linux are from 1998. But no worries mate, they'll catch up soon enough!

Something's missing... (3, Insightful)

bubbl07 (777082) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078158)

Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any printer drivers. The rest of the stuff seems fairly straight-forward to get, but printer drivers I think have been the bane of everyone's upgrade experience since Windows 98 or earlier. Thank goodness for hplip [sourceforge.net] . However, that won't help me much when I start getting friends and family asking me to upgrade their computers to Vista despite all my year-old warnings. That'll be my cue to sit back smugly and laugh at them.

In any event, I'm sure there are many that will find this aggregation useful.

Re:Something's missing... (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078766)

Thank goodness for hplip

It's a pity HP sacked anyone that knows anything about Designjet plotter drivers a little while back. Even some of their current models listed as postscript are MS Windows only (and really don't understand postscript) and won't have any Vista drivers out anytime soon.

Re:Something's missing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18078822)

It's a pity HP sacked anyone that knows anything about Designjet plotter drivers a little while back.

They did? How come?

challenging period (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18078162)

From the site: "This FREE page lists the latest Windows Vista drivers and provides direct links to the files for downloads. We're offering this as a free service to the community, to help you all get through this challenging period of Vista-transitioning."

But all the links go to store.apple.com

I don't get it.

Drivers, Vista, Just Works (tm) (1, Informative)

Hucko (998827) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078166)

This was just one of my gripes with Vista (the pre-release) was it would not recognise either of my network cards! The XP drivers didn't work with it either.

The site may work better with a search function and/or a listing by hardware. Windows people without the necessary drivers may be confused by the text names.

Re:Drivers, Vista, Just Works (tm) (0)

ryepnt (1064238) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078246)

Isn't obvious? they are saving anything useful or cool for Windows "Vienna"?.... They are just gonna keep stalling until they get it right. Vista is a diversion (a 400$ diversion)

Re:Drivers, Vista, Just Works (tm) (1)

Hucko (998827) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078724)

Okay who on earth modded this informative? My XP drivers didn't work? it at best was interesting. Sheesh.

MIcrosoft not involved? (2, Insightful)

mckniffen (983873) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078168)

Why does it seem to me that Microsoft couldn't care less about vista. Vista has compatibility problems out the wazoo, and microsoft won't even host drivers on their web page.

Re:MIcrosoft not involved? (2, Interesting)

Treates2 (1004837) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078228)

if they didn't care so much about vista why would they spend so much time in making it uncrackable by hackers and pirates??

*waits to be proven wrong*

Re:MIcrosoft not involved? (2, Informative)

Hucko (998827) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078480)

You can hold your breath now, I believe someone had already done it. Will I be sued if I google hacking Vista?
http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/02/01/HNvistas peechbug_1.html [infoworld.com]
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,128115-c,hackers /article.html [pcworld.com] (okay so this isn't hacking per se, but a crack to make your system more vulnerable. Vista 'prevents' this with it's 'impressive' security)

Re:MIcrosoft not involved? (1)

sumdumass (711423) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078530)

I doubt it is that they don't care. It is more like they were pressued to do something that didn't rely on years of experience. And they were against a deadline to get it done. Microsoft today is were linux was yesterday as far as having to play catch-up with itself. Even with all the beta testing which was likley opened to more people then the betas were for previous versions.

XP was devloped over 2000 wich was a continuation of NT. Some say Nt sucked and it took untill windows 2000 before it was good enough to use. 95 was simular to Vista except the Dos operating system they claimed it didn't run on but relied heavily on. Windows 98 was an improvment but it didn't start getting things really together until the second addition to 98. Me, well, It was an experiment gone bad for a lot of people that basicly made them decide to pull 98 into NT/2000 instead of keeping 98 and incorperating the good parts of NT/2000 to create XP.

Expect the same type of growning pains that were present in 95 combined with going from 95 to 98se. XP had the idea that it just worked going for it because a lot of the drivers were extentions to availible APIs wich meant that windows could genericly run most things easily and incorperate a lot of driver with little more then a config file to register it properly. Vista has something simlular from what I'm told but it isn't quite the same making this a do over from scratch for quite a few driver developers.

Re:MIcrosoft not involved? (1)

dabraun (626287) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078976)

Me, well, It was an experiment gone bad for a lot of people that basicly made them decide to pull 98 into NT/2000 instead of keeping 98 and incorperating the good parts of NT/2000 to create XP.


This was *always* the plan. No one at microsoft ever seriously intended to "pull the good parts of NT/2000 back into 98 to create XP". If Microsoft could have pulled it off then Win2K would have meant the end of the 9x line, but it wasn't quite there yet.

9x was built for speed.

NT was built for stability.

(both were built before Microsoft realized how big of a can of security-related worms the internet was going to be)

The fundamentally different attitudes of the two teams when the two were being built in the first place (at around the same time) was enormous. NT people were disgusted with 9x design and implementation. 9x people knew that the NT approach would not provide what they needed to provide to "wow" people on the then-current hardware.

Re:MIcrosoft not involved? (1)

kingturkey (930819) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079142)

Good news, all that work was for nothing as it's already cracked, you can install Vista without a CD key and they give you 30 days grace to enter your key, in which time you're allowed to download updates as if your version of Vista is activated. It is a fairly simple process to stop this countdown permanently at 30 days using a crack available on torrent sites.

Re:MIcrosoft not involved? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18078678)

1. Microsoft cannot legally just download software from any arbitrary vendor and put it on microsoft.com.

2. Putting a driver on Microsoft's website is an endorsement of quality, which MS may not be able to make for any arbitrary driver.

3. The most recent driver is on the vendor's web site. The driver you find on microsoft.com may be days or weeks old.

In other words, MS does host drivers on their web site, but only those that vendors supply and pass certain QA tests. Since MS relies on vendors to submit the drivers and QA testing takes time, it is unlikely that MS will have the latest drivers. Thus, MS is not the best source of drivers.

dom

Re:MIcrosoft not involved? (1)

killjoe (766577) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078872)

Why should they? Vista is going to get shoved down every fuck who buys a computer anyway so why should they do anything at all.

Re:MIcrosoft not involved? (1)

rrshadow (71036) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079646)

...and microsoft won't even host drivers on their web page.
They do. http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/maintain/DrvUpdate.m spx [microsoft.com] (Microsoft delivers updated drivers for your devices through Windows Update.) Think it's any easy enough task to gather a list of 3rd party hardware driver links let alone provide the processes, infrastructure, and mechanisms for driver verification and testing and installation on millions of heterogenous computer systems from 3rd party device manufacturers with various degrees of driver development quality?

BGatesFan Here! (0, Flamebait)

BGatesFan (1065072) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078176)

Please only use Microsoft Certified Drivers. If your system doesn't have Microsoft Certified Drivers available, you should have gotten a Dell!

Never mind Vista Drivers (5, Insightful)

jaseparlo (819802) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078204)

I've just spent two days trying to get XP working on a HP notebook that arrived here with Vista preinstalled. We can't and won't use Vista (no Novell support, and you wouldn't use an only-just-released OS in a corporate environment anyway), but the HP site doesn't offer any XP drivers for it's current models. Hunted around and managed to get drivers for most things, but the nvidia driver refuses to work...

I understand that M$ has forced the Vista install on vendors, but I don't understand why they can't make the rollback to XP an option for those of us that want/need it.

Re:Never mind Vista Drivers (5, Informative)

Osty (16825) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078402)

Hunted around and managed to get drivers for most things, but the nvidia driver refuses to work...

Don't blame HP for that one. Blame nVidia's insistence that OEMs support mobile chipsets with their own "official" drivers (which the likes of HP/Compaq and Dell never keep up to date, of course). The thing is, mobile chipsets are generally no different from their desktop counterparts when it comes to drivers. For nVidia drivers, check out LaptopVideo2Go.com [laptopvideo2go.com] . For ATi, try DH Mod tool [driverheaven.net] . In either case, the "problem" is that the inf for the drivers don't contain the right information to detect mobile chipsets, even though the drivers will work just fine on them. The "fix" is to hack the inf so that the installers will allow you to apply the drivers to your mobile card.

Re:Never mind Vista Drivers (3, Informative)

ettlz (639203) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079716)

In either case, the "problem" is that the inf for the drivers don't contain the right information to detect mobile chipsets, even though the drivers will work just fine on them. The "fix" is to hack the inf so that the installers will allow you to apply the drivers to your mobile card.

That's right. Just to add a bit on: I get the latest nVidia drivers working on my notebook by unpacking both the recent executable and the one on the CD-ROM supplied with the notebook with 7-zip, copying the .inf file across, and then running the setup utility.

Blame nvidia? (1)

empaler (130732) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079960)

nvidia: We have two package options; Premium, where we provide the drivers directly to the end users and Basic, where we provide some binaries and some source to the OEM, and you then have to repackage and distribute your version of the drivers.
Dell: So, basically you're saying that we get to put our logo on more stuff, and save money in our end? W00+!

Re:Never mind Vista Drivers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18078418)

61xx (6100,6150) chipsets or its variants? Try an older Nvidia release, say the 70 series. The new 80 and 90 series wouldn't work at all on a system I have with integrated graphics.

Not that I love MS or anything... (2, Informative)

Twisted64 (837490) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078490)

Can I downgrade my OEM version of Windows Vista Business to Windows XP Professional?
Yes. OEM downgrade rights for desktop PC operating systems apply to Windows Vista Business and Windows Vista Ultimate as stated in the License Terms. Please note, OEM downgrade versions of Windows Vista Business and Windows Vista Ultimate are limited to Windows XP Professional (including Windows XP Tablet PC Edition and Windows XP x64 Edition). End users can use the following media for their downgrade: Volume Licensing media (provided the end user has a Volume Licensing agreement), retail (FPP), or system builder hologram CD (provided the software is acquired in accordance with the Microsoft OEM System Builder License). Use of the downgraded operating system is governed by the Windows Vista Business License Terms, and the end user cannot use both the downgrade operating system and Windows Vista Business. There are no downgrade rights granted for Windows Vista Home Basic or Windows Vista Home Premium.

Here. [msn.com]

Re:Never mind Vista Drivers (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078572)

you wouldn't use an only-just-released OS in a corporate environment anyway

You wouldn't? Hint, I can think of a company with 70,000 employees that has Vista and Office 2007 deployed to the desktop, and has for a while now. ;)

It's made a little easier for us as we get access to a lot of drivers before the general public, though.

Re:Never mind Vista Drivers (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18078726)

You wouldn't? Hint, I can think of a company with 70,000 employees that has Vista and Office 2007 deployed to the desktop, and has for a while now. ;)

Yeah, and we all see how well that's working out for them. Their latest "revolutionary" product is a few years late and way over budget. Maybe the GP has a point ;-)

Maybe... (1)

b1scuit (795301) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078690)

I understand that M$ has forced the Vista install on vendors, but I don't understand why they can't make the rollback to XP an option for those of us that want/need it.
...they aren't allowed?

Re:Never mind Vista Drivers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18079240)

What model was this notebook that you were having trouble finding XP drivers for?

Re:Never mind Vista Drivers (1)

ickoonite (639305) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079520)

Rollback-to-XP options are definitely available - it may depend on how many systems you buy.

Vista Drivers Page Necessary? (2, Interesting)

RJBuild1088 (968537) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078280)

Why do third parties even need to complile these lists? Shoudln't Microsoft be on top of this?

Re:Vista Drivers Page Necessary? (3, Funny)

statusbar (314703) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078306)

Soon, when Vista gets as many drivers as linux already has, perhaps Vista will be ready for the desktop!

--jeffk++

Tip for Vista users (4, Funny)

alienmole (15522) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078362)

You don't need this drivers page, all you need is to disable those pesky security dialogs and go surf the web for a while. Be sure to click "Yes" or "OK" on any messages that pop up. Pretty soon, everything you need to run Vista will be downloaded and installed on your machine automatically!

Re:Vista Drivers Page Necessary? (1)

Kuciwalker (891651) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078706)

Oddly enough, when I upgraded to Vista all I needed were graphics card drivers. I'd expected to spend forever hunting on the web (it's a notebook without a Vista-sticker, so the manufacturer won't provide Vista drivers), but even my wireless card worked out of the box.

Re:Vista Drivers Page Necessary? (1)

zakezuke (229119) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078398)

Why do third parties even need to complile these lists? Shoudln't Microsoft be on top of this?

It reminds me when win95 was new and I had a microtek 600z scanner, something I shelled out well over $400 for. Not scsi nor parallel. There technicaly was a beta driver burried deep in microtek's FTP site. It was a flacky piece of filth but was good enough... well... until scanner prices dropped. I'm sure others experenced annoyance with early generation scanners, even many scsi ones.

My point is i'm sure microsoft provides links to drivers which it takes the time to test for compatability, but one can not expect them to cover everything, esp not this soon into the release.

Even if they did, the drivers microsoft reccomends are not always the best.

Re:Vista Drivers Page Necessary? (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078584)

Not scsi nor parallel.

So what the hell interface did it use? Did you think it mightn't be the wisest idea to purchase something with a wacky proprietary interface and hope that it'd support what was quite a dramatically changed operating system? :)

Re:Vista Drivers Page Necessary? (1)

DrKyle (818035) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078652)

Wasn't there a time (back in this win95 era) that USB was the wacky new proprietary format?

Re:Vista Drivers Page Necessary? (1)

zakezuke (229119) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078946)

So what the hell interface did it use? Did you think it mightn't be the wisest idea to purchase something with a wacky proprietary interface and hope that it'd support what was quite a dramatically changed operating system? :)

The hell interface it used was so propriority I don't know the name of it. The adapter card was called the "Microtek, MS-PCY". This was just when twain was pretty new. I, after all, did buy the scanner before win95 was released, by a good couple of years.

It "may" have not been the best idea to go with something so proprietary, but oddly enough support for this wacko jacko interface was better than it's scsi counterpart. The hell version at least had a beta win95 driver which sometimes worked, and the proprietary scan software worked. This was sort of when twain was "newish", but the software I was using had direct support for this scanner.

Was it the best idea was buying this scanner? I "could" have gone with a scsi model but even scsi scanners had their issues. Ones from that time period were rather locked into using a host adapter based on the NCR xxc509 chipset, something which was painful to find. Just so happened media vision released one sound card with the NCR chipset onboard. But I had a choice... $400ish for this propriority scanner, or $800 for SCSI model which may or may not have been supported in the next generation of windows. It was faster for single pass, my software supported it directly without having to go through twain, a big bonus when scanning hundrads of pages for OCR. I saved enough money going propriority that buying another scanner 5 years which was less propriority cost less. I evaluated my options very carefuly, and made a reasonable choice based on what was available at the time period. It wasn't until win2k that I had to ditch that sucker, but 7 years is a good run for hardware.

Re:Vista Drivers Page Necessary? (1)

Kichigai Mentat (588759) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078782)

I'm sorry... what!?

My point is i'm sure microsoft provides links to drivers which it takes the time to test for compatability, but one can not expect them to cover everything, esp not this soon into the release.

Even if they did, the drivers microsoft reccomends are not always the best.

Funny, because I remember people mentioning that Apple had plenty of time to test iTunes to make sure it worked with Vista. So, if that's true, why hasn't Microsoft had time to test drivers? And isn't it the manufacturer's job to provide drivers? If drivers aren't available through first party channels, why is the OEM even selling a machine where the hardware isn't supported by the software provided?

Re:Vista Drivers Page Necessary? (2, Insightful)

zakezuke (229119) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079070)

Funny, because I remember people mentioning that Apple had plenty of time to test iTunes to make sure it worked with Vista. So, if that's true, why hasn't Microsoft had time to test drivers? And isn't it the manufacturer's job to provide drivers? If drivers aren't available through first party channels, why is the OEM even selling a machine where the hardware isn't supported by the software provided?

Firstly... i'm not sure that iTunes works with vista. I thought there were issues with iTunes and aero but I could be wrong. I don't use iTunes nor visa.

Second... if apple did test iTunes on vista, then they basicly tested one software package on one OS. Perhaps they even took the time to go with a few different PCs... but still one piece of software, on one OS, on a limited number of machines. Not every piece of hardware in existance.

And lastly... it's the hardware manufacturers job to make hardware. They do also either make the drivers, or outsource that to someone else, many times via microsoft. They are under no obligation to support your platform, only the platform they advertise it being compatable with. They are under no obligation to make drivers for something you already bought. How much hardware was tossed away between win3.1 and win9x? How much between win9x and win2k/xp?

Beta and XP drivers in many entries (2, Informative)

origamy (807009) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078336)

Some of the entries point to Beta drivers. They should at least make a note on the website that the drivers are not final. Many of the drivers are XP drivers (the ZIP file contains WinXP in its name).

Users are better off just going directly to the manufacturer's websites. If drivers are Beta they may not find them easily, but at least they'll be warned. And if there's no Vista driver they won't download an XP driver and try to use it without warning.

Manufacture specific (3, Informative)

sieb (749103) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078560)

Be careful, alot of these are manufacture specific, example: the Atheros drivers. I've been hoping to find some Atheros drivers that work in Vista on the Macbook that include a newer version of their Client software (old versions have all options greyed out), but the drivers on this site are for either IBM or Fujitsu laptops. Also keep in mind that many companies, like Atheros, don't release their own drivers publicly and instead rely on the hardware manufacture to maintain them.

Windows Update (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18078580)

Windows Update does all this automatically. Worked for me perfectly on 4 different homebrew machines.

Re:Windows Update (1)

NerveGas (168686) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078794)

Homebrew machines are where you would expect it to work relatively well - at least that has been my experience with Windows Update and drivers. Where you run into trouble is with more proprietary hardware - on my Dell laptop, for instance, I have yet to find a driver update on Windows Update, despite the fact that Dell comes out with them periodically.

On laptops, I've run into a few cases where the laptop manufacturer (or mainboard manufacturer, later to be packed into a laptop) has taken a device, and changed the PCI ID by one number without changing ANYTHING in hardware, specifically so the "regular" driver for that piece of hardware wouldn't install without some hacking.

Like Linux 10 years ago (1)

Werrismys (764601) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078694)

The simple fact that they can hope to list all drivers for a Windows platform speaks a lot of the state of Vista hardware support.

Wonder when we get www.vistaprinting.org, www.vistawireless.org, www.vista-laptop.net ...

I see you are going to look for drivers on Vista (2, Funny)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078792)

Are you sure you want to visit this page?

I see you are about to install the driver? Are you really really sure?

Re:I see you are going to look for drivers on Vist (1)

Digz (90264) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080806)

I don't see why everyone bashes this so much. My Ubuntu install works in a very similar manner. Whenever anything needs root privileges it pops up a password dialog (unless, of course, I'm in a shell and have to sudo instead), but you don't hear everyone yapping all day about "Synaptix needs root privileges, please enter your password".

Everyone's been barking about Windows running as root constantly, and now that they've changed that model everyone barks because Windows prompts you before it runs something with root access. Come on.

32 bit only? (1)

louarnkoz (805588) | more than 7 years ago | (#18078846)

I took a quick look at the list of drivers on the site, and it looks like a collection of x86 drivers designed for XP. What about 64 bit drivers? -- Louarnkoz

Get off your high-horses (1, Insightful)

DeviousDevil (1021597) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079188)

I had an XP machine and waited for Vista to get a brand new machine - custom built obviously not some Dell crap. In short I got a Core 2 Duo 6700, 3GB Ram, 80GB & 250GB SATAII drives, 8800 GTS Graphics, Creative X-Fi Elite Pro, ViewSonic 22" WS and I had an old HP Laserjet 6P printer and an HP PSC all-in-one via my home network already.

Out of the box every piece of hardware worked. The only thing I needed to get updated drivers for were the graphics and sound (beta ones still but they work). Printer, LAN, USB everything just worked.

Vista works well and I've had no problems. In fact on my old machine I had 2 items in device manager with exclamations and I never knew what the hell they were, in Vista (admittedly different hardware) not an exclamation in sight.

All the Linux fanboys on here must be real master dojo experts in it, because colleagues of mine who use Linux have told me about little issues like when upgrading the kernel to the latest version because it supported some more hardware and then existing hardware that previously worked stopped work, NICE!! What a lot of you guys forget is that there are millions (if not billions) of different hardware combinations of PC hardware out there and you're trying to make out that Linux is the saviour and will work on anything whilst laughing at Vista - you are bare-faced lying and you know it.

Vista may not work on everyones machines fully, you may even have to use a couple of beta drivers to start with but Linux is exactly the same. The only difference being that with Vista the situation WILL improve over time, not sure the same can be said for the next version of UBER-GIJoe Linux or whatever the current popular flavour is are you?

Re:Get off your high-horses (1, Flamebait)

Hucko (998827) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079440)

no master dojo expert here... I'm teaching myself xhtml. I don't have any issues for hardware that has linux drivers written for it (video cards) and most of the hardware worked out of the box despite the lack of specific drivers. No problem upgrading to the latest verison kernel. Linux runs on more configurations than Vista will ever hope to. There will be more machines that will have Vista on it, but linux will be capable (as always) of running on it.

Every major release since 2004 of suse, ubuntu, mandrake, and knoppix have all run out of the cd with my machines (3) so far. I too have had to upgrade my nvidia drivers to have reasonably a good display, but I've had to do that with XP and Vista too. Vista also couldn't use either of my network cards, printer and scanner didn't work but drivers were available for download. Not so for the network cards. The difference? I can't see any logical reason to pay a company for software to not work with my computer, restricting my ability to use my computer as I wish.

My brother bought a Dell and has had no end of trouble. This on hardware "designed" for Vista. Don't be a mug, don't pay for beta.

The only difference being that with Vista the situation WILL improve over time, not sure the same can be said for the next version of UBER-GIJoe Linux or whatever the current popular flavour is are you?
Yes. I am sure the next version of n linux will improve over time. Hence my testimonial. I believe in open source philosophy, be that in linux/bsd/plan9/solaris/etc. I believe variety makes a better world than monopoly. I will learn/preach/teach open source until I am persuaded of a better path. More than likely I won't pay more than $70 for it.

Re:Get off your high-horses (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18080226)

You are in a serious case of denial...

seek help

Re:Get off your high-horses (1)

Ash-Fox (726320) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080292)

because colleagues of mine who use Linux have told me about little issues like when upgrading the kernel to the latest version because it supported some more hardware and then existing hardware that previously worked stopped work, NICE!!
2.4 to 2.6?

Although I haven't heard of this issue, there is nothing wrong with staying with your existing kernel version. It's not like you won't be able to run new software like you won't with Windows.

Vista may not work on everyones machines fully, you may even have to use a couple of beta drivers to start with but Linux is exactly the same.
The Linux kernel supports far more hardware than any version of Windows ever did. I disagree with your statement.

The only difference being that with Vista the situation WILL improve over time
I some how doubt I'll be able to use Vista decently on six year old hardware (which I tried) while I can already use Linux on the same six year old hardware with Beryl for those 'spiffy' effects (even though I don't care for them) decently.

Driver? (0, Flamebait)

iliketrash (624051) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079364)

As a Macintosh user, I have to ask, what's a driver?

Re:Driver? (2, Insightful)

Ash-Fox (726320) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080248)

As a Macintosh user, I have to ask, what's a driver?
Usually binary code that determines how a computer will communicate with a peripheral device.

The lack of them on OS X (not drivers, but certain drivers that come with the OS) is the reason why so many peripheral devices have a warning label saying something similar to "Not compatible with Macintosh".

Re:Driver? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18080420)

As a Macintosh user, I have to ask, what's a driver?
Its why over half the hardware you purchase doesn't work on your Mac.

Sorry, but I think there's been an oversite (1)

FoamingToad (904595) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079652)

There's no indication whether the drivers are 32-bit or 64-bit - surely the drivers themselves are not cross-compatible?

Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

F_T

Whoever is crazy enough to download drivers (4, Insightful)

slashdot.org (321932) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079672)

Whoever is crazy enough to download drivers from places linked to by this site?

I mean, all good intentions aside, but drivers are binary files, it's rediculous enough that most of them aren't digitally signed even when downloaded from the original manufacturer. But explain why exactly this site is sending us to "files.3dnews.ru" to download ATI drivers???

Shit, I can't even come up with a hooker/unprotected sex analogy that's silly enough to describe this.

In any case, if this is the way for Vista customers to get their new purchase to work, then yeah, glory days for Linux ahead...

Re:Whoever is crazy enough to download drivers (1)

saintted (107928) | more than 7 years ago | (#18079846)

Glory days for Linux indeed. More drivers released for Vista in the last couple of weeks than Linux drivers for the last 10 years. And none of the Vista drivers require you to recompile your kernel to get them working either.

Think I'll leave here for a little while ....

Re:Whoever is crazy enough to download drivers (1)

slashdot.org (321932) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080020)

Glory days for Linux indeed. More drivers released for Vista in the last couple of weeks than Linux drivers for the last 10 years.

Yeah....

Ignoring the credibility and "quality vs. quantity" issues with your statement, the point is that so long as people revert to downloading binaries from unknown (untrusted) places and installing them on their system, we are still a long ways away from security being 'fixed' in Windows.

Not to say that the same issues couldn't arise with Linux, btw, they could, but (and I'm saying this as a predominantly XP user) it's less likely:

And none of the Vista drivers require you to recompile your kernel to get them working either.

Exactly; you'd rather download a binary blob from a random place and install it as an Administrator.

So to get back to the glory days for Linux,- (and the context in which I wrote it) in the long term, if Microsoft doesn't solve (instead of fix, which is too simple of a term considering the problem) the security issues with Windows, then I don't think it's a far stretch to predict that that will have positive effects on Linux's marketshare.

Re:Whoever is crazy enough to download drivers (1)

mobby_6kl (668092) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080306)

Well, 3Dnews.ru is a serious russian tech news, review, and analysis site which keeps a nice archive of ATI/NVIDIA (and other) drivers dating back to the Detonator age so there shouldn't be any problems downloading there. But I agree with you on the general principle (not the day of Linux on desktop part) that the things you're expected to install as admin should be digitally signed, and preferably come from the manufacturer's site.

Idiots (1)

rudy_wayne (414635) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080010)

Apparently, listing the drivers in alphabetical order is beyond the limited mental capacity of the idiot running that site. So I had to scroll through 6 pages of randomly listed drivers just so I could find out that the one I was looking for isn't there.

Thanks for nothing.

I'm glad this is finally out... (1)

mtec (572168) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080178)

At last we have a list of these vista drivers! There is nothing more dangerous than people driving around, not paying attention and looking off in to the distance! Now you can tell if your neighbor or one of your family members is a vista driver. People that drive like this are a traffic hazard and a menace to society! Why, just the other day, I was driving to work and beside me was someone - not paying attention - looking off into the dist...
What? what do you mean? oh... not those drivers? Vista is a what? Oh. ok. Sorry. I use a Mac. I didn't know...

...
Nevermind.

Certainly sounds good for Microsoft (1)

ktraglin (834070) | more than 7 years ago | (#18080270)

Apparently, they need all the help they can get with Vista, particularly in light of the advancements of Linux, BSD (& OSX), Solaris, etc.
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