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Raymond Knocks Fedora, Switches to Ubuntu

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the one-unhappy-penguin dept.

Red Hat Software 608

narramissic writes "After 13 years as a loyal Red Hat user, Eric Raymond, co-founder of the Open Source Initiative, is switching to the Ubuntu distribution. In a message distributed to Linux mailing lists and news organizations, Raymond cited technical issues with Red Hat, such as the way repositories are maintained, the submission process and 'stagnant' development of Red Hat's packaging technology, as well as governance problems, the failure to gain desktop market share and the failure to include proprietary media formats. 'Over the last five years, I've watched Red Hat/Fedora throw away what was at one time a near-unassailable lead in technical prowess, market share and community prestige,' Raymond wrote. 'The blunders have been legion on both technical and political levels.'"

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Fedora Responds (5, Interesting)

spacemky (236551) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114144)

The fedora-devel-list [redhat.com] has already responded to this, as well as Alan Cox [reddit.com] himself.

Personally, I'd like to see ESR's response to these rebuffs.

Re:Fedora Responds (4, Insightful)

chill (34294) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114322)

Yeah, and two replies deep -- after one anti-socialist rant -- gets you to this:

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/ 2007-February/msg01083.html [redhat.com]

That is a telling thread and validates part of what Eric is saying:

"After thirteen years as a loyal Red Hat and Fedora user, I reached my
limit today, when an attempt to upgrade one (1) package pitched me
into a four-hour marathon of dependency chasing, at the end of which
an attempt to get around a trivial file conflict rendered my system
unusable."

Flat out, that should have never been allowed to happen. The fact that it can, and did, highlights what is a fundamental problem with package management on Fedora/Red Hat.

Re:Fedora Responds (5, Insightful)

sprag (38460) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114362)

He used --force or --nodeps when removing that package. It tried to stop him and he overrode it.

  Better disable 'cat' since it can be used to erase your hard drive!

Re:Fedora Responds (4, Insightful)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114672)

He used --force or --nodeps when removing that package. It tried to stop him and he overrode it. Better disable 'cat' since it can be used to erase your hard drive!

If the system leaves you no choice but to override it because it is doing something wrong, and YOU do something wrong, who is at fault? Answer: everyone.

The system is fucking stupid because it still leaves you in dependency hell. I don't really know how people can find the stomach to dispute that. It's like when some program bluescreens windows and people make excuses for it. "Well the program did such and such"... fuck you! No program should ever be able to crash any OS. Mind you, there are ways to panic Linux, as well. I just like to bring up the BSOD whenever possible, since we see it so often, or would if XP didn't default to immediate reboot. And sometimes even then the system crashes so hard it can't reboot itself anyway.

If the system is so broken that it forces the user to do unsupported things, the system needs replacing whether the user is culpable or not.

Re:Fedora Responds (3, Insightful)

tenchiken (22661) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114454)

I would just point out that Alan Cox's statement is the exact reason Fedora has been loosing seats to Ubuntu as rapidly as possible. Never mind that that he ignores all real problems that led me to leave Feodora for Ubuntu, he focuses on the multimedia codecs issue, and issues a screed against open source. That arrogance is what led Fedora to it's current shrinking place in the world.

Re:Fedora Responds (5, Insightful)

Doctor Memory (6336) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114796)

I would just point out that Alan Cox's statement is the exact reason Fedora has been loosing [sic] seats to Ubuntu as rapidly as possible
Well, I wouldn't say that's the exact reason... I've noticed on several OSS support forums that Fedora seems to be one of the most problematic distros. People have problems installing stuff, configuring stuff, things hang or eat tons of CPU time, and just generally don't work properly. And, while I've never see anyone come right out and say "You need to move to another distro", lots of times the threads will end with "I see on the project bug list that this is a known problem with Fedora Core"...

So I don't think any mass exodus is solely based on political ideals...

Re:Fedora Responds (-1, Offtopic)

minus_273 (174041) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114818)

Yeah, and two replies deep -- after one anti-socialist rant -- gets you to this:
I think you are taling about this
"Who the hell made you the arbiter of what's right and wrong? You?

I've about had it up to here with this New Slavery crap, this
pseudo-socialist movement in the Linux world being pushed by self styled
self aggrandizing arrogant ivory tower elitists intent on a fascist
enforcement of the licensing policies of THEIR choice dictated from
inside a closed circle-jerk where everybody pats themselves on the back
and laughs about how stupid the "outsiders" are. The Greg KH's and
Andrew Mortons of the world that are hell bent on telling programmers
how to license their own code at the point of a gun. It's repugnant,
just about as repugnant as this self-important arrogant post of yours."

Sounds reasonable to me. It is something people have been saying for ages. It also sounds anti-fascist the fact that once cant tell the difference between and anti-socialist and anti-fascist rant says alot about socialism...

Re:Fedora Responds (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114996)

The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace


Makes as much sense as:

Freedom is slavery
War is peace

and, most importantly, otherwise no one could ever see the above as making sense:

Ignorance is strength.

s/Fedors/ESR/ (3, Insightful)

EmbeddedJanitor (597831) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114340)

One could easily use ESR's accusations about Fedora on himself too.

He went from a technically superior person wiith use positive impact and a great standing in the OSS community to a cynical self-promoting has-been.

Re:Fedora Responds (3, Informative)

Ian Alexander (997430) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114402)

He's responded a few times already.

Here's the actual mailing list thread: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/ 2007-February/thread.html#01006 [redhat.com]

Here are ESR's responses from that particular thread:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/ 2007-February/msg01060.html [redhat.com]
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/ 2007-February/msg01082.html [redhat.com]
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/ 2007-February/msg01097.html [redhat.com]
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/ 2007-February/msg01118.html [redhat.com]

He also started another mailing list thread called "Core Values" which I'll let you find in the mailing list index, which I've linked to already (albeit anchored to the beginning of "Goodbye, Fedora").

Re:Fedora Responds (0, Redundant)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114702)

Personally, I'd like to see ESR's response to these rebuffs.

You might. I don't.

You know, I've switched OSes a few times. I've expressed disappointment in one and gone to another. Sometimes you just end up more comfortable in another platform. Of course, you might use one incident as some kind of last straw, but it's not really the case. You tolerated that for a long time. It's more telling that you care about the incident, not that the incident in any way validates your beliefs.

The same thing is going on here.

The thing that bothers me is... I don't know why I'm expected to care. I know ESR is a widely known figure in the OSS community, one who did much of the political footwork in the late nineties, but he (a) isn't as influential (or so I thought) as he once was, and (b) he's talking about switching from RedHat (or whatever it's called today) to Fedora. As if this is a major thing.

This really is egomania and celebritymania at its finest. There is no reason this should be on the front page. This is not a significant switch by any stretch of the imagination. Quite frankly, Alan Cox shouldn't even care about this. I clicked on the article thinking there was more to it than ESR changing his distro, but no, quite seriously, that's what's going on here. Why is this news? And why did ESR expect, writing in his most pompous "It's the end of the world for RedHat because I'm not using it any more" tone, it to be news?

Re:Fedora Responds (1)

networkBoy (774728) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114794)

No he quit on RHEL/Fedora as a whole and went to Ubuntu.
-nB

Not very professional, Mr. Cox. (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114808)

I'm not very impressed with Alan Cox's response [redhat.com] , especially considering he sent it from his redhat.com email address.

That sort of rudeness is not needed between a representative of a major open source company and its customers/users. It doesn't matter how much Alan has contributed to Linux, or how much he dislikes ESR, or how much he supports Fedora Core. His response was not needed, and reflects badly on himself, Red Hat, and Fedora Core.

ESR isn't the only person who has experienced some pretty serious problems with Fedora Core. There are many users who have noticed that it is having QA problems. Maybe Alan Cox should listen to what ESR is saying, and address the technical issues. These sorts of personal spats don't help anyone in the open source community.

yeah but..... (0, Redundant)

xTantrum (919048) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114152)

does it run linux? .....oh...sorry...got ahead of myself.

Re:yeah but..... (1)

glittalogik (837604) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114350)

Apparently not anymore =P

Realism (1, Insightful)

P(0)(!P(k)+P(k+1)) (1012109) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114156)

From TFA:

The culture of [Fedora's] core group has become steadily more unhealthy, more inward-looking, more insistent on narrow 'free software' ideological purity, and more disconnected from the technical and evangelical challenges that must be met to make Linux a world-changing success that liberates a majority of computer users . . . .

Which servers to corroborate my suspicion: RMS is an autist, whereas ESR is a realist.

Re:Realism (1)

moranar (632206) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114280)

I don't follow your reasoning: RMS has nothing to do with Fedora...

Re:Realism (1)

Orange Crush (934731) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114666)

I don't follow your reasoning: RMS has nothing to do with Fedora...

RMS = Free Software Advocate

Fedora = Free Software ONLY distro

ESR = Believes in a little more "give" to allow non-free bits

Re:Realism (1)

moranar (632206) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114800)

That _still_ doesn't equate what the Fedora distro people do with what RMS does. I know they share many objectives, but I believe Fedora is an _open source_ only distro: Python is not free software, it's open source. It's an important difference, at least to RMS. RMS doesn't answer for the Fedora foundation, he doesn't even recommend Fedora as far as I know. Neither can be said on the opposite about Fedora.

I do agree with your view on the fanatism of RMS, but attributing ideas to him or associating him with people he has nothing to do with isn't the way to make the point come across.

I also view ESR as an opinionated bastard: it's either his own way or you are wrong and "it's a damn, damn shame". It never occurred to him that maybe, just maybe, he could be wrong. The Fedora leaders told him months ago "If you look for proprietary software it's OK, but this distro has as a core principle the use of non-proprietary software, so no can do". It was clear enough then, and ESR threw a hissy fit about how they wouldn't accept change. Being there several other distros that do incorporate what he wants, I don't understand him.

He should.. (0, Flamebait)

JonJ (907502) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114170)

Fit right in, both Ubuntu and ESR loves proprietary stuff.

Re:He should.. (4, Insightful)

jackharrer (972403) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114314)

I would say it's not about proprietary stuff, it's more about compatibility, market share and choice. If you don't want proprietary drivers, codecs and so on, choose Fedora / Redhat. But if you want usable distro that you can use as a nice desktop OS, without worrying about 'if it's open source or not' go for Ubuntu. Or Linspire. Or Mandriva.

That's the beauty of Linux - something for everybody, you can mix'n'match. The only reason why people speak about it is ESR is a big player in FOSS crusade.

He chose Ubuntu, fine. Don't like it? Find different idol you can follow.

Re:He should.. (4, Interesting)

esconsult1 (203878) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114576)

Hmmm... that's just a load of bull.

3 Months ago I installed Ubuntu.. in a virgin installation I could do nothing. After searching for and installing Automatix, I could do stuff.

2 days ago I replaced that Ununtu desktop with Fedora 6... in a virgin installation I could do nothing. After searching for and finding the excellent HowoToForge doc on spiffing up Fedora,:
http://www.howtoforge.com/the_perfect_desktop_fedo ra_core6 [howtoforge.com]

I could do everything I wanted with just slightly more effort. (My reasons for switching has nothing to do with not liking Ubuntu. Its just that my hard drive crashed and I wanted to try Fedora 6 upon re-installing a new desktop).

Out of the box, both Distros offer the same capabilities, and lack of proprietary drivers, codecs, etc. The user has to do it for themselves by going to third part websites for these.

Re:He should.. (3, Interesting)

superpulpsicle (533373) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114924)

I miss the days of redhat 9 when there was 1 super good version. Good enough for corporate and home with a single distro. Ubuntu might be good for home, but there is no support for bigname devices.

This just in... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114172)

Eric "ass" Raymond is still a self-important arrogant gas-baron.

Re:This just in... (4, Funny)

grolschie (610666) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114244)

Eric "ass" Raymond is still a self-important arrogant gas-baron.
But, Everybody Loves Raymond.

But... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114252)

...I thought Everybody Loves Raymond!?

Netcraft survey confirms: Red Hat is dead (1)

ENOENT (25325) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114174)

Truly an American icon.

Re:Netcraft survey confirms: Red Hat is dead (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114608)

Truly an American icon.

You mean could have been. There is a reason most OS development is now done offshore these days. Patent law suits, crypto law, lack of business intelligence, legalized anti-competitive monopoly territory to name a few.

Why make a stink? (5, Insightful)

SnowZero (92219) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114186)

Can't a prominent OSS person just switch anymore? It seems like they have to make a big political stink out of it. It's really too bad that people can't leave when things are still amicable, and instead they let it boil over to a traditional email flame-fest by the time they act.

Re:Why make a stink? (1)

B_tace (802354) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114248)

That was my next sentiment, exactly. You just worded it better.

Re:Why make a stink? (2, Informative)

sprag (38460) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114264)

Its because ESR is a self-important asshat and instead of just quietly slipping away he issues the equivalent of a press release.

Re:Why make a stink? (4, Insightful)

jackharrer (972403) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114380)

He chose to make it public to show what he's fighting for. He wants Linux to get real, not to be totally out of touch with reality. We need proprietary software, and very often, they need Linux. It's not about fighting with them - it's about cooperating.

Re:Why make a stink? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114448)

Then he should have just gone off to another distro and championed them. Instead he complains about how awful Fedora is after he forcibly removed a package RPM tried to stop him from removing. Fedora has been about free software from day one, much in the same way that Debian is. If he wants proprietary stuff, then he can use another distro instead of preaching his "if we have 30% market share they will fear our wrath!" crap to the Fedora developers.

Re:Why make a stink? (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114590)

He chose to make it public to show what he's fighting for. He wants Linux to get real, not to be totally out of touch with reality. We need proprietary software, and very often, they need Linux. It's not about fighting with them - it's about cooperating.

Let me just embrace and extend your statement here for a moment. We don't need proprietary software in the long term. But we don't have to fight them! Natural forces will make them irrelevant. In the mean time, we can help each other make the transition from the closed software world to FOSS as smooth as possible for all concerned to minimize the negative impact.

Remember, systems are made up of people. It's not just some bunch of faceless minions. Microsoft employees are people too, even if it can be hard to tell sometimes. If we destroyed closed, proprietary software overnight, those people would be out of jobs and decreasing the value of your work as well.

Re:Why make a stink? (1)

turbidostato (878842) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114894)

"We don't need proprietary software in the long term. But we don't have to fight them!"

It's only that "we" (whatever the meaning of "we" is) don't fight proprietary software. "We" simply don't use it. Is there any means on Fedora (or even Debian, for that matter) to deter others from building a repository full of not only proprietary but even devilesque, terraforming and stinky software directly instalable on a pristine open source-only system?

Uh...?

So I thougth.

"Natural forces will make them irrelevant"

Natural forces? Are those kind of "natural forces" akin to the "invisible hand". I have news for you: it's people the force that make things happen. As much as Stallman can be an histrionic extremist, it's people like him the ones that make open source flourish to the point it is today. With people like Raymond -or you, there weren't no "I want my HP drivers" -Stallman could have an easier day by simply looking for a more reasonable provider; there would be no Apache, no *BSD, no Linux, no nothing to talk about.

"we can help each other make the transition from the closed software world to FOSS as smooth as possible"

It is only that people like Raymond -or you, while saying "it's in order to transition from closed to open" are only meaning "from windows to linux" which is not the same thing, by far, and even that is questionable (I'd say it's even more than "from windows to linux": it's more like "from a trademard I happen not to like to another trademark I happen to like the more").

"If we destroyed closed, proprietary software overnight"

Yeah, and if moon was indeed made of cheese...

Re:Why make a stink? (2, Insightful)

NDPTAL85 (260093) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114950)

The only thing that natural forces will (continue) to make irrelevant is open source software that continues to ignore attractive and easy to use user interfaces....which would account for the majority of open source software in the world today.

Re:Why make a stink? (5, Interesting)

mrcparker (469158) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114744)

He chose to make it public to show what he's fighting for. He wants Linux to get real, not to be totally out of touch with reality. We need proprietary software, and very often, they need Linux. It's not about fighting with them - it's about cooperating.
Haha. Sure he did.

He also just happened to join the Freespire board [desktoplinux.com] . Freespire is Linspire, a company which just signed a deal with Ubuntu [desktoplinux.com] . hrmm

His argument was a bit valid, but it is not Red Hat's fault - it is the people who own all of the little Fedora repositories that have not really worked well together. Fedora is about software freedom, and Eric cares about getting Linux everywhere no matter what. I am not really sure where ESR stands on the whole freedom argument, or if he only cares about challenging Microsoft.

Re:Why make a stink? (1)

fangorious (1024903) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114942)

I think reality is out of touch with common sense in the context of multimedia codecs. People are complaining about distributions not including, for free, software that carries a [patent] license fee to distribute legally. Honestly, I don't hardly find it much easier to locate/install codecs on Mac or Windows that aren't part of the default OS install. In fact, I think it's easier on Linux. I just add the right repository, and I get all my codecs from one source. At least with the package repos in Linux I can then keep them current without having 14 different update services all over the place. I have no qualms about running proprietary, binary-only software on my Linux installs. I just don't find it offensive that I have to locate and install extra software (just like I do on Mac and Windows) because the Linux distributor didn't pay the licensing fees to include it (which is the same reason stuff is missing from Windows and Mac).

Re:Why make a stink? (1)

garcia (6573) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114452)

Can't a prominent OSS person just switch anymore? It seems like they have to make a big political stink out of it. It's really too bad that people can't leave when things are still amicable, and instead they let it boil over to a traditional email flame-fest by the time they act.

Because it all online circles (just as in real life) people are obsessed with drama. My opinion isn't only limited to the major players but to everyone on the lists/forums/sites they post to.

It's really disappointing that people can't just keep their opinions to themselves and lead by example rather than by trolling.

Re:Why make a stink? (1)

Frosty Piss (770223) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114542)

Raymond has a history of this kind of flame-out. He's a loose canon. Take it with a grain of sand.

Re:Why make a stink? (4, Informative)

rainman_bc (735332) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114746)

Can't a prominent OSS person just switch anymore?

Exactly. And for that matter, why the hell should Linus care what DE I ( and a great deal of people ) like to use? Just because Linus likes KDE doesn't mean Gnome is a POS.

Still, I have to agree with Raymond - you are almost forced to use third party repositories like freshrpms or dag because the repositories just plain suck.

Then you get stuck in dependency hell because one site doesn't necessarily use the same package names as the other.

And where the hell is Firefox 2 for Fedora anyway? They decided that we don't need it and they're going to hold out for Firefox 3? What the hell's that all about anyway?

Re:Why make a stink? - Legend in his own mind (1)

NatteringNabob (829042) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114918)

ESR thinks what he has to say is important, and has persuaded some journalists and bloggers that he is important as well.

This is one guy, but! (2, Insightful)

B_tace (802354) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114190)

This is one guy, but! Over the last few years, I have seen much more Linux and Unix devotees switch to Macs than Ubuntu.

Re:This is one guy, but! (1, Redundant)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114424)

Over the last few years, I have seen much more Linux and Unix devotees switch to Macs than Ubuntu.

I've certainly seen the same thing. I know about 100 people who have switched to OS X in the last few years and I know 1 person who went back to Linux. Most of these people are Linux developers, writing software for Linux servers, using OS X desktops. For myself, I rely upon OS X more and more on the desktop and I migrated my Linux desktop from a separate box running Fedora to a Kubuntu install in a VM on top of OS X. The list of desktop apps I still use it for has shrunk to pretty much gimp, inkscape, and xpdf.

Windows, Mac, And Linux (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114216)

And new app is released for Windows and a person goes to its webpage and clicks download. And doubleclicks on an installer and the app is ready to go.

And new app is released for OS X and a person goes to its webpage and clicks download. And drags the app to where the like and the app is ready to go.

On Linux you wait around for someone to 'package' the app and upload it to a repository so that Linux users can then download it along with a million other packages that app needs.

WTF?

For what? So every little distro can scatter config and app files all over the harddrive in a slightly different way?

Funny how you never hear Windows or Mac users wishing for package managers and app repositories...Just like you never hear Windows or Mac users looking to make their desktop look and function like KDE or Gnome...

Re:Windows, Mac, And Linux (1)

Constantine XVI (880691) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114332)

Not always true. For example, Skype, Parallels and Opera, among others, deliver packages for the major distros right alongside the .msi's and .app's. Ive also seen debs (Ubuntu user, forgive me for not noting others) for quite a few OSS apps. VLC and Democracy Player come to mind. From my usage, the problem does not exist.

Re:Windows, Mac, And Linux (1)

chaoticgeek (874438) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114382)

VLC media player too, there are many out there you just have to go and open your eyes. .deb is fairly common package format. That along with .rpm and they both are out there many times one right after the other.

Re:Windows, Mac, And Linux (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114440)

Linux package managers and formats - Band-Aids for crappy system design decisions made long ago that no one wants to fix.

Re:Windows, Mac, And Linux (2, Interesting)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114622)

I disagree, i hear many people wishing for a online app repository of free apps for windows and osX

I know myself, id love to just type in pkg_add -r blaapp ( or use a fancy gui interface )

Re:Windows, Mac, And Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114790)

"I disagree, i hear many people wishing for a online app repository of free apps for windows and osX"

No you don't.

"I know myself, id love to just type in pkg_add -r blaapp ( or use a fancy gui interface )"

Fucking pathetic that it is 2007 and clueless fucks are still actually referring to "fancy gui's as some sort of software novelty item.

And let me guess, the only difference between OS X's desktop and KDE or Gnome is 'teh pretty skin'...

Re:Windows, Mac, And Linux (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114694)

Funny how you never hear Windows or Mac users wishing for package managers and app repositories...Just like you never hear Windows or Mac users looking to make their desktop look and function like KDE or Gnome...

Actually there was demand for having a repository system on Mac, which is why fink [sourceforge.net] exists. This allows Mac users to access a repository of open-source unix software.

Also, in fact, KDE has been ported to Mac OS X. I know of people who use it, because there are some KDE apps they really want to run on OS X. The next version of KDE will in fact run on Windows too. The reason these ports were developed is because of some number of people who wanted those features.

As for repositories, I personally love them. In fact I now find the "Windows way" of installing software to be painful and primitive. As another poster pointed out, Linux users still have the option of downloading a .deb or .rpm and installing that.

Re:Windows, Mac, And Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114886)

Fink and darwinports are for fucking developers you clown.

Wow, so someone actually used the KDE port on OS X? I also know someone who can eat soup with a spoon and their bare foot...

Feel free to point out any Mac or Windows discussion board where anyone is expressing any desire to replace their desktop with fucking KDE. I can go to any Linux distro's user board and find giant threads of people trying to get their Linux desktop to look and act like OS X.

Thank you for reminding everyone why Linux on the desktop continues to be a complete joke.

Re:Windows, Mac, And Linux (1)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 7 years ago | (#18115008)

Funny how you never hear Windows or Mac users wishing for package managers and app repositories...

Windows has a package manager, just not one that pulls from a repository. As a Windows and Mac user, I hereby wish both had functional package managers that integrated with repositories. The benefits are numerous. Note, that is not to say I want the platform to migrate to the same lousy package formats as Linux tends to use. I want to keep clan and portable and contained OS X style .app bundles, I just want a nice package manager to handle some discovery, downloads, updates, clean uninstalls, and situations where the app needs to install a kernel module or something.

Actually there was demand for having a repository system on Mac, which is why fink exists.

Well, Fink is pretty much a compatibility tool for installing Linux ports, but there are real package managers for OS X that handle both CLI, X11, and Aqua applications.

Re:Windows, Mac, And Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114990)

I would love to have someone explain, and not rationalize, why exactly I need or should want to download Firefox or OpenOffice from a repository. Or why I should wait around for someone else to package, whatever the hell that is, those apps and upload to a repository.

Can't possibly be for safety reasons or OS X would have all sorts of problems which it clearly doesn't have.

I think he's absolutely right (3, Interesting)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114224)

I want to know WTF Cox is talking about when he says that "The moment Fedora includes non-free stuff it becomes a problem for all the people who redistribute and respin it". The people who respin it aren't your problem. You're not obligated to support them. They're making a derivative let them derive. The people who redistribute don't have a problem so long as your licensing agreement permits redistribution. As for the statement "it becomes unfair in the proprietary world in the eyes of everyone who didn't get included", uh, so? Life isn't fair. Love isn't fair. Nothing important is. If they want to court redhat users, they can do that without any help from redhat.

Re:I think he's absolutely right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114504)

Is your "war for the beast" sig some wacky religious/fatalist slogan?

Re:I think he's absolutely right (4, Insightful)

stinerman (812158) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114562)

It becomes a problem when the goal of Fedora is to use Free Software. Cox et al. give a damn about making it easy for people to make derivative distros. Would you fault Debian for being the same way? They're even worse than Fedora when it comes to non-free software.

Fedora has a goal of making it easy to distribute derivatives, just as ESR has different goals of functionality at the expense of freedom. Neither is wrong or right, just different.

Re:I think he's absolutely right (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114730)

Would you fault Debian for being the same way? They're even worse than Fedora when it comes to non-free software.

In fact I do fault Debian for being the same way, but only because they take it too far. IceWeasel is the prime example. However it doesn't stop me from USING Debian, if only on servers, and even then only in virtual machines when I need a light-ish linux distribution that still has working management tools.

Fedora has a goal of making it easy to distribute derivatives, just as ESR has different goals of functionality at the expense of freedom. Neither is wrong or right, just different.

That's not really Fedora's goal, it's RedHat's. Fedora's goal is to provide beta testing for RHEL. It succeeds brilliantly, thanks to many who are willing to be testers. RedHat's goal is to offer easy repackaging because it is the only way they avoid being crapped on by the linux community which can no longer download their product and get full functionality.

In any case it is not at the expense of freedom, at least not for the user, who has the option to install those packages, or not. It provides the user with additional freedom - they can choose to use those packages, or not use them.

Re:I think he's absolutely right (0)

kwalker (1383) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114692)

The problem is copyrights, licenses, and the enclosed distribution rights. Fedora is, has been, and always will be Free (In the Stallmanesq sence) to do what you want. This includes creating "derivitives" which are subject to copyright legal provisions. As soon as Fedora includes anything that doesn't allow redistribution (As many of these codecs and drivers that ESR is so hot over do) then it violates the strictures that Fedora operates under.

As for your trite "life isn't fair" quote, you are correct but entirely wrong in this regard. Fedora is about Fairness under the GPL and other equally Free licenses.

Don't reply, it's just Moronpoo the asshole (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114954)

He always tries to say asshole things just for effect. Probably considers ESR his mentor.

Just ignore Moronpoo.

Nonfree Licenses (1)

eklitzke (873155) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114968)

I want to know WTF Cox is talking about when he says that "The moment Fedora includes non-free stuff it becomes a problem for all the people who redistribute and respin it".

He is referring to the possibility of licensing proprietary formats, like MP3, which has been discussed within Red Hat and Fedora before. Basically, the Red Hat legal department is of the opinion that if Fedora were to distribute MP3 (or other proprietary codecs) support, then Red Hat could get in trouble. Red Hat has more than enough money to purchase a license for MP3, and would probably be willing to do so even for Fedora, which of course they do not make money off of. But the issue is that they cannot purchase a license that would also apply to redistributors. The people at Fedora have decided that this is a sacrifice they are not willing to make -- they want Fedora to be truly free, and fully redistributable.

Yay community (4, Insightful)

dedazo (737510) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114254)

It's always interesting to observe the reaction of the people who supposedly make up the "open source community" when these things happen. On the original article and on the OSNews post as well the general attitude is the same that I saw when ESR dared criticize the CUPS GUI - he's a "fucking idiot", essentially.

While I am normally amused at the cries of "FUD" whenever someone outside the user/developer community criticizes anything that has to do with open source (especially when the criticism is a valid one), things like these I think pretty much paint a picture of a group of people who've become institutionally incapable of absorbing and incorporating criticism of any sort, no matter who it emanates from. One would think Raymond is among the few people who have earned the right to say "wow, this sucks and needs to change". The recent back-and-forth between Torvalds and GNOME is another good example.

Maybe is the mythic "vociferous minority" that also pollutes teh interwebs with the "M$ IS TEH SUXX LINUX ROOLZ" mantra, but whatever it is, it looks damn bad.

Re:Yay community (3, Insightful)

hexix (9514) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114596)

In this case he announced that he's switching Linux distributions and flamed RedHat/Fedora for the problems it has as he sees it. But he's switching to another Linux distribution, so that seems to reason that he views the problems he has with being fixed in this other distribution. So what's with the drama if there's a solution?

I can understand the CUPS thing, or if he took on the state of software installation on Linux as a whole, but he's not. He's simply crying about something to see if he's popular enough to get a reaction.

Hopefully this is the last time he'll be able to get news for throwing a tantrum. He's really not an important figure in the Free Software world anymore, as much as he wishes he was.

Re:Yay community (1)

drooling-dog (189103) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114934)

It's always interesting to observe the reaction of the people who supposedly make up the "open source community" when these things happen.
Well, that's democracy for you. Things are a lot more placid in the "closed source community", aren't they?

Time for a new Slashdot Logo (5, Insightful)

mhall119 (1035984) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114266)

What with all the Ubuntu stories of late, far outnumbering the Red Hat/Fedora stories, shouldn't we get a Ubuntu logo on these articles now?

So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114290)

then BSD^H^H^HRed Ha^H^H^H^H^HFedora is dying! :P

Proprietary formats? (1)

brennanw (5761) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114304)

I'm not very familiar with Fedora, so the "proprietary formats" complaint intrigues me, since Ubuntu doesn't strike me as particularly proprietary-format friendly... it's based on friggin' Debian, after all.

How is Ubuntu going to be any better at supporting proprietary formats? It sure doesn't support any "out-of-the-box" (er... from a fresh install) -- you have to add multiverse to your sources list in order to get access to them. (Or you can use Automatix, but that's hardly an "official" part of the distribution). I always assumed Fedora had something similiar. Am I assuming too much?

Re:Proprietary formats? (5, Informative)

chill (34294) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114450)

Ubuntu has signed on to use Linspire's Click-N-Run.

Inside CNR are some things like a legally licensed MP3 plug-in and DVD player. I believe the DVD player was a plug-in for Xine and cost $4.95. Click, buy, done. It was really that simple. I was watching DVDs on a Linspire system in minutes and it was worlds ahead of adding DVD playback on Windows.

So, yes. Ubuntu and Linspire both have a very simple framework for dealing with commercial and proprietary software that Fedora and Red Hat do not.

This must be a new development... (1)

brennanw (5761) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114470)

... it's an interesting one to be sure.

Re:This must be a new development... (1)

chill (34294) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114614)

Announced only a couple weeks ago. You're right, it is an interesting development.

http://www.ubuntu.com/news/LinspirePartnership [ubuntu.com]

Re:Proprietary formats? (1)

Mr EdgEy (983285) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114516)

Synaptic can add multiverse so you don't have to edit the files manually, though yes, it's still more than 'out-of-the-box' support

Re:Proprietary formats? (1)

Constantine XVI (880691) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114598)

I'll be able to tell you for sure in 2 hours or so, but I think Feisty will auto-install restricted formats when you attempt to use one of them (MP3, mpeg-2 dvd, etc.)

Welcome to last week... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114306)

Or rather, yesterday. This site is getting slow. That is all.

RPM Updates (1)

SoapDish (971052) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114312)

So, I'm too lazy to find the article, but I remember reading on /. a few months ago that they're redoing the RPM format.

The entire code will be re-written as a first step. After that, who knows?

Who cares? (2, Interesting)

chaoticgeek (874438) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114334)

I really want to know why anyone cares what anyone else is using for their computers? It does not matter and does not affect me so why should I care. Why should there even be an article on this topic. I change my mind all the time does that mean I should submit articles to slashdot about where I'm going to eat tonight? What video card I'm going to buy? I just think people should get their own lives and learn to think for their self. It makes no difference what anyone else uses for their OS.

No I'm not trying to come off as a troll or start a flame war, just trying to understand why everyone cares about this.

Re:Who cares? (1)

dedazo (737510) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114604)

I wonder if I had made the same comment here [slashdot.org] someone might have modded me up, but to answer your question, apparently it's a big deal.

Oh gawd no (4, Insightful)

moranar (632206) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114374)

Now we'll enjoy his enlightened commentary on the Ubuntu MLs. How many variations on the theme "you don't subscribe my opinion, therefore you're a bumbling fool" will we have to suffer before he jumps ship again? ESR, LFS is over there ->!

I don't blame him (4, Informative)

Cthefuture (665326) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114394)

I have never been a RedHat (I'm including Fedora here) fan. I have run almost every version since the beginning because I'm a consultant and RedHat/Fedora is one of the "standard" Linux distros that some companies use. RedHat based systems have always had two basic problems:

1. The install is non-standard. They move stuff into wierd locations and often you have to add special considerations to your build process to make it work on RedHat based systems.

2. The packaging system sucks donkey balls! I can't stress that enough. RPM is awful. They have tried to fix it with all sorts of tacked on systems but they all suck. They're always slow as hell and the dependancy system often doesn't work right. I mean the term "RPM hell" was coined for a reason.

But I am biased because I started with Slackware (basically before there was anything else) and went to Debian not long after. Although I have tried many, many distros over the last 15 years I always come back to Debian based systems. Ubuntu is what I run now because it has the goodness of Debian with a better/faster development model.

I saw the response to Raymond's comments. It's always the "do the right thing" argument which is valid but I believe there needs to be a balance between reality and complete fanaticism. Windows is a commercial product from an "evil" corporation yet they are still top dog dispite morally attractive alternatives. There are many good valid reasons behind that.

ESR is Childish and Unprofessional (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114396)

Same thing I posted to LWN yesterday --

  ESR seems to be very unprofessional and childish. Examples:

* Regularly sends "open letters", ostensibly to some party he disagrees with, but really to the public. These should either be privately directed to the intended party, or should be addressed to the public.

* Sends this drive-by flame about how he is switching to Ubuntu, without mentioning his financial relationships with Linspire, and by extension, Canonical.

* Makes a speech about how Linux should have nonfree codecs WITHOUT disclosing his financial relationship with a distro that specializes in that. It comes out some time later.

* Made up that stupid story about how Bill Gates insulted him at a conference once, and told it to lots of reporters.

* Threatens people with physical/gun violence (like Bruce Perens), thus hurting the cause of gun rights which he seems to care about.

* His obnoxious "travel rules" -- http://www.catb.org/~esr/travelrules.html [catb.org]

* Claims to speak for everyone in "his movement". Uses "we" a lot when making claims.

* Changed the statement in the jargon file that most hackers tend to be somewhat libertarian, which is probably true, whether you agree with that philosophy or not, to read that most hackers are Neoconservative, which is demonstrably false, again whether or not you agree with that philosophy. He did this because he HIMSELF had become a neoconservative and warblogger.

What a dumbass (0)

Profane MuthaFucka (574406) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114404)

I left Red Hat behind way back in 1997 and installed Debian. It only took him 10 fricking years to figure it out.

+1 insightful

Good for him (4, Interesting)

finkployd (12902) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114466)

I did the same thing around the time the colossal mess that was Fedora Core 3 was out. Most of the Linux users I know (which amounts to around 40 or so people I work with and know socially) have switched from Redhat to Ubuntu (or OSX) for desktops and laptops. And a lot of us have switched to Solaris 10/Express for servers. Naturally the Debian users I know still use Debian :)

Looking back, I should have left Redhat around 7.3, which was the last good and consistently stable RH release.

Finkployd

Re:Good for him (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114764)

I left around 6.x. 6.1 was the last version of Redhat that I personally felt wasn't complete garbage. RPM, however, always has been and probably always will be crap. Besides that rpm the program sucks, rpm the format is stupid. If I just want to get the files out, I either have to know the size of the header, or have a program that understands rpm on my system. In addition, they elected to use cpio, a program which has fallen far out of favor in the Unix world, when gnu tar would have done the job more than adequately (the argument for cpio had something to do with permissions and special files, both of which are properly handled by GNU tar.) To me, RedHat Linux is just a collection of stupid decisions. I appreciate some of the things that RedHat the company has done for us, chief among them being cygwin. But I have long since lost any use I might ever have had for RedHat Linux.

Re:Good for him (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114974)

I did the same thing around the time the colossal mess that was Fedora Core 3 was out. Most of the Linux users I know (which amounts to around 40 or so people I work with and know socially) have switched from Redhat to Ubuntu (or OSX) for desktops and laptops. And a lot of us have switched to Solaris 10/Express for servers. Naturally the Debian users I know still use Debian :)

Looking back, I should have left Redhat around 7.3, which was the last good and consistently stable RH release.


I switched to Debian after upgrading to Redhat 8.0 and finding it sucked compared to the 7.x versions (which were quite good). I was using Debian unstable for quite some time, but there were enough rough times that I wanted something more stable and switched to Ubuntu about a year ago. Edgy is a little rough, but Dapper was excellent.

This is GOOD! (1)

CyberLord Seven (525173) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114494)

We may not like the process but these open arguments are good. We all get to hear the various versions of what's good or bad about GPLv3, or what is great or sucks about Fedora.

We have no chair-throwing morons.

We get to see the process and watch the final outcome. This gives us a better understanding of why Gnu/Linux is the way it is and where it is going.

Good for ERS speaking up. Even better for Alan Cox to reply. I only hope ERS replies to that. :)

Here's an idea... (1)

pedalman (958492) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114524)

Instead of dumping RedHat/Fedora, he should switch to RHEL and purchase the support he needs.

Re:Here's an idea... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114930)

Well said. I said the same thing on OSNews.com!

Didn't realise this was ESR (4, Insightful)

linvir (970218) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114620)

Here is part of Cox's response:

Maybe it is time the term "open source" also did the decent thing and died out with you.

Sure, ESR's comment was fairly divisive, but why pour more fuel on the fire? This was divisive enough as a Fedora vs Ubuntu flamewar. Now it's Open Source versus Free Software. And Alan Cox just told Eric Raymond to go and die.

Can you imagine Bill Gates telling Steve Jobs to go screw himself? In fact, I just recently saw some photos of those two hanging out at some social function, chatting and getting along fine. Now my head is filled with the image of Gates and Jobs living it up and having a laugh, with Cox and Raymond hunched over their computers in the background banging out enraged emails to one another.

We can be a fucking embarrassing bunch at times.

Re:Didn't realise this was ESR (2, Funny)

garcia (6573) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114826)

Can you imagine Bill Gates telling Steve Jobs to go screw himself? In fact, I just recently saw some photos of those two hanging out at some social function, chatting and getting along fine. Now my head is filled with the image of Gates and Jobs living it up and having a laugh, with Cox and Raymond hunched over their computers in the background banging out enraged emails to one another.

Yeah, you just pointed out what I would have imagined. Two people who despise each other at some stupid public social function pretending that they are all honky dory while one is ready to take a clue from a co-worker and throw a chair and the other wants to give a wedgie.

And Alan Cox just told Eric Raymond to go and die.

Can you imagine Alan Cox looking clean cut and impressive at an interview instead of looking very much like the GNU logo? Yeah, neither can I.

Re:Didn't realise this was ESR (3, Insightful)

DogDude (805747) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114956)

That's the whole thing. I seriously doubt that Gates and Jobs hate each other. "Grown ups" just don't think like that. They're competitors, but that's no reason they can't be professional, or even genuinely friendly towards each other. This isn't a fight to the death. It's just business. It's even quite common for people to have serious philosophical differences to still be friendly with each other. It's a maturity thing.

Sounds like Cox and ESR both have the maturity level of pre-pubescent 12 year olds, and I'm terribly embarrassed for both of them, because I'm sure that they don't even realize how ridiculous they look, no matter what their past accomplishments have been.

Failure to include proprietary formats? (1)

Random Guru 42 (687672) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114654)

If any distro fails "to include proprietary media formats" it would be Ubuntu. Out of the box, I've yet to encounter a single edition of Ubuntu that would play mp3 files (or for that matter, any MPEG related format). And I doubt that the problem stops there.

Of course, as a programmer with limited internet access (mostly through public terminals) I avoid Ubuntu for another reason: A distro without dev packages on the disc is a distro not worth my time.

Re:Failure to include proprietary formats? (1)

feranick (858651) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114762)

sudo apt-get build-essential

Better than download a full load of useless software in 4 CDs.

ESR IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114674)

i don't care what he says, what he likes, or what he thinks. He's a racist. Fuck off ESR.

Oh yeah, Eric? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114802)

Well... don't let the door hit your ass on the way out!

Why so much noise? (1)

Outland Traveller (12138) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114834)

It is too bad Eric is using his celebrity in such a negative way. He could have focused on what he likes about other distributions, rather than what he doesn't like elsewhere.

For myself, many of the reasons that Eric lists for not liking Fedora, are exactly what I enjoy and want to see more of in a linux distribution.

Long live Linux distributions!

What next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114872)

So what happens when ESR becomes just as pissy about Ubuntu if it doesn't work for him? Haven't there been the same sort of similar problems (in general) with the management of Ubuntu? So after ESR comes to the realization that Ubuntu is just as hard/easy to work with as Fedora, will he switch back, jump to yet another distro, maybe give up and start using Windows?

In Other News.... (4, Insightful)

Dredd13 (14750) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114896)

.... people had been wondering "what the fuck it was ESR was up to lately, since he hadn't gone off on an ill-advised tear in a while".

What exactly *does* ESR contribute these days? I have to be honest when I say that -- while he was in the right place at the right time with the right idea when it came to Open Source -- for the most part the rest of the time I see him as a tremendous Oxygen Thief, stealing valuable oxygen that could be consumed by other more productive folks.

Who cares if ESR uses Red Hat or not? I don't care if he uses Red Hat, Debian, Ubuntu or dusts off some Yggdrasil disks, to be honest. Let him use "what works for him."

It's not like he's going to be leading this army of "Red Hat Deserters" or something. If it wasn't for Slashdot running a story about it, nobody would even have noticed or cared....

When you were the maintainer of Sunsite... (1)

dattaway (3088) | more than 7 years ago | (#18114952)

and rolled your own with all the packages available, why bother choosing a distribution? Your computer is already built, so why reinstall aka Windows style?

ah, well does any linux distro work outta the box? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18114992)

Me, I am very tired of Linux not working out of the box on every graphics card more than six months old. 11 years of hacking tired. Bored to tears in fact.

Ubuntu(Edgy eft) was the first distro that worked on all 4 machines i install on. no tweaking(except for playing dvd's)

can't blame him

I have most rhel releases( i have passed a few courses), but well. I do want something that just works.
Thank you Canonical.
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