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Bill Gates Speaks Out Against Immigration Policies

samzenpus posted more than 7 years ago | from the losing-our-skillz dept.

Microsoft 722

Jeian writes "None other than Bill Gates has spoken out against tighter immigration policies in the US. According to Gates, the US is losing skilled immigrants to other countries that are easier to immigrate to. Among his comments: "I personally witness the ill effects of these policies on an almost daily basis at Microsoft.""

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Well if that's the case (-1, Troll)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270222)

make them tighter

I made billions- but you'll be replaced (4, Insightful)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270232)

Translation- I made billions in this industry, but if you try to work your way up from intern in my company to my level I'll fire you and replace you with somebody who spent 1/10th your cost growing up and getting an education, regardless of skill, because it's better for my bottom line.

With attitudes like this among our upper class, can anybody blame high school kids for not going into computer science?

Every programmer out there who lived through the depression in our industry of 2001-2005 is asking "Where was Bill with these jobs then?", and unfortunately the answer is Bangalore.

I suggest that to change this image, for every H-1b Microsoft hires, Bill Gates donates a $60,000 scholarship to an American high school student to study computer science, or a $50,000 scholarship to an unemployed American programmer to update their skillset and get a higher degree. Then maybe we'll believe what he says on this topic. Until then, he's just lobbying for the Cheap Labor crowd, which includes his own business.

My problem, I guess, is that I just can't bring myself to trust these folks any longer. They'll go for cheap over quality any day of the week- even when it means a 7 year delay in the next operating system only to have a bunch of GUI bells and whistles and no real new fixes or functionality.

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (5, Insightful)

TodMinuit (1026042) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270468)

Microsoft is doing what they think is in their best interest. Their purpose isn't to justify your education, or try and boost the number of CS majors. Their purpose is not to give you, or anyone else, employment. Nor is that the purpose of any company.

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (4, Insightful)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270570)

Microsoft is doing what they think is in their best interest. Their purpose isn't to justify your education, or try and boost the number of CS majors. Their purpose is not to give you, or anyone else, employment. Nor is that the purpose of any company.

Exactly right! So why should we change our laws, written by representatives elected democratically, to help a bunch of sociopaths who are just out to get what they can regardless of the destruction they cause to the rest of society? I say we should be disbanding any corportion that doesn't have, as a part of it's charter, a duty to support the citizens of the country that is granting it incorporation papers. It's not worth the cost in lowered taxes to allow such sociopathic systems to incorporate.

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270670)

I tagged this story 'avoidliketheplague' exactly because of moderation like this.

Cheap labor vs Skilled labor (2, Insightful)

Original Replica (908688) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270484)

Which do we really need here in the US? Do we really want highly skilled immigrants to fill highly skilled jobs, or do we want cheap labor that will do the jobs no one else wants to do? Are kids who grew up here complaining about losing construction/landscaping and migrant farm jobs to immigration?

Re:Cheap labor vs Skilled labor (1)

JackieBrown (987087) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270596)

Neither

Re:Cheap labor vs Skilled labor (3, Insightful)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270606)

Which do we really need here in the US? Do we really want highly skilled immigrants to fill highly skilled jobs, or do we want cheap labor that will do the jobs no one else wants to do?

We want cheap highly skilled labor to prevent having to actually pay for the society in which we live.

Are kids who grew up here complaining about losing construction/landscaping and migrant farm jobs to immigration?

Some are. I really do not like that the way I learned to work (picking strawberries, cane berries, and doing landscaping) will not be available to my son because a bunch of illegal immigrants took all of those jobs long ago. Without such jobs, he may not be able to afford to go to college. It's all tied together.

Re:Cheap labor vs Skilled labor (5, Insightful)

Tackhead (54550) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270850)

> Which do we really need here in the US? Do we really want highly skilled immigrants to fill highly skilled jobs, or do we want cheap labor that will do the jobs no one else wants to do? Are kids who grew up here complaining about losing construction/landscaping and migrant farm jobs to immigration?

Which is what makes US immigration policy so infuriating.

Apu Packofsix wants to come over from Bangalore and write software. He can come as an H-1B, he can't change jobs while he's here, and his H-1B expires in three years. Then he can renew once, and he can stay for three more years, after which he has to go home. Since he's making between $50K-100K, his employer might like to keep him around, but his employer isn't in the business of breaking the law. So - he's only got six years here, he never puts down roots, and after six years of making $20K/year in taxes off him, he gets kicked out.

Jose Seispack, on the other hand, sneaks across the border in the dead of night. Makes $3/hour picking berries. Has an "anchor baby" at the earliest possible opportunity. Stays indefinitely, sneaking back across the border within a few months, should he be so unfortunate as to be caught and deported. Consumes about $10K/year in government services, indefinitely.

Joe Sixpack? Well, Apu was forced to go back home after his six years were up. So when Apu starts his consulting operation in Bangalore, guess what happens to Joe Sixpack's engineering career?

Thanks, Politicians. Thanks a fuck of a lot.

I'll grant that a population consisting of a lot of highly-educated engineers is lot harder to rule than a nation of xenophobic Joe Sixpacks and happy-to-get-$3/hour Jose Seispacks, but that's about the only win I see for the government: There's no other conceivable rationale (economically or in terms of tax revenue) behind the current system of discouraging a few hundred thousand highly-skilled workers from coming to America, while simultaneously encouraging millions of low-skilled workers to show up.

Maybe it's time for Atlas to shrug. If America doesn't want its high-tech immigrants, maybe they should take the hint and all go home, where they'll at least be allowed to be productive. And if America doesn't want its own high-tech citizens either, maybe we should take the hint and go where the action is.

The problem isn't just in the computer industry: does anyone seriously think the next generation of biotechnicians and gene-hackers is going to come from America's educational system? Anyone? Bueller?

I say (2, Funny)

einhverfr (238914) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270912)

we revoke the citizenship of all immigrants and anyone decended from immigrants in the last four hundred years.

Wait....

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (0)

caffeinemessiah (918089) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270546)

I suggest that to change this image, for every H-1b Microsoft hires, Bill Gates donates a $60,000 scholarship to an American high school student to study computer science, or a $50,000 scholarship to an unemployed American programmer to update their skillset and get a higher degree.

Why...why...that's the most un-American post I've ever seen!! You sound like one of 'em stinkin' socialists. But seriously, America has always been about (1) capitalism and (2) good business. What you suggest is quite the opposite -- it would be bad for business and is anything but capitalism. You're talking protectionism, which goes against the American ideal of "best price/quality ratio wins". Perhaps a lot of outsourced work is crap, but a lot of it isn't, and if it was ALL crap, well then business wouldn't exist anymore would it? Protectionism by any other name is still protectionism, except now that we're talking people it feels a lot more personal. Doesn't change the facts though.

p.s. i just noticed your nickname -- your post makes a lot more sense now.

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (1, Troll)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270644)

Why...why...that's the most un-American post I've ever seen!! You sound like one of 'em stinkin' socialists. But seriously, America has always been about (1) capitalism and (2) good business. What you suggest is quite the opposite -- it would be bad for business and is anything but capitalism. You're talking protectionism, which goes against the American ideal of "best price/quality ratio wins". Perhaps a lot of outsourced work is crap, but a lot of it isn't, and if it was ALL crap, well then business wouldn't exist anymore would it?

Quite the opposite- you just need to look at WalMart and what it's done to the American Manufacturing industry. Just about EVERYTHING WalMart imports from China is crap that will need replacing 3 times a year today- and they did it by forcing American companies to such a low price point that they had to close the factories here and outsource.

Just look at Vista and you'll see that Microsoft's overreliance on H1b labor and outsourcing has done the same thing to software.

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (4, Insightful)

Watson Ladd (955755) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270730)

Microsoft's issues relate more to management suffering from a massive case of NIH syndrome and an inability to realize mistakes. They could have taken OpenBSD, put in video card drivers and a new window manager, slapped it in a box and called it Vista for a fraction of the money they spent, and gotten a better product. But they didn't.

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (1)

SirSlud (67381) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270798)

Just look at Vista and you'll see that Microsoft's overreliance on H1b labor and outsourcing has done the same thing to software.

I marvel at your skills of oversimplification.

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (2, Insightful)

rikrebel (132912) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270618)

Agreed. Bill is speaking out because he wants super cheap low quality labor.

Have you ever been on the other side of an outsourced (as in india/thialand/china/japan) sw dev project? What a NIGHTMARE. Awful code, long hours of conf calls just to explain we want "push" instead of "pull"... Then to wake up the next day and have it wrong still.

MS does nothing without it's own profit margins in interest. It's corporate psychopathy. Can you say Enron?

2c.

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (1)

Citizen of Earth (569446) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270696)

My problem, I guess, is that I just can't bring myself to trust these folks any longer.

I must have missed a turn. Gates is a business man. Why would you expect him to operate a welfare system that benefits you?

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (5, Insightful)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270704)

Typically short-sighted protectionist viewpoint.

Think about it this way...if all the competent people move here, where will all the work be? One of America's greatest advantages is that it's just a damn nice place to live. If you can move here (and thanks to our typically loose immigration laws, you probably can), you will, depriving your native country of your skill, and giving the pass along benefits to the rest of us...Skilled workers immigrating to a country is always a good thing.

The other option is to lock everything down, and say "No new immigrants." What happens then? Do you think wages will go through the roof, and jobs will grow on trees? Or do you think more companies will send the jobs to where the workers are?

Sure Microsoft wants the cheap workers, but, you know what? They can go to where the cheap workers are if they want 'em that bad, and we really don't want that to happen.

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (2, Insightful)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270848)

And they can discover the benefits of countries like that just as exxon and others have recently.

These companies are taking advantage of a safe legal environment here while using workers who do not have the same costs as we do.

I think a suitable answer would be for the government to nationalize microsoft just as other countries nationalize oil companies.

Either they are part of our society and share it's benefits or they are not.

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (3, Insightful)

Eli Gottlieb (917758) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270852)

Right, but none of that justifies H-1B visa slavery.

In the beginning of the twentieth century, the United States had really free immigration laws. Millions came in because of how great America supposedly was (along with the lack of attempts at genocide) a great place to live. Then people got racist and tightened the immigration laws.

If we let skilled labor into the country, they should be able to compete on a level playing field with American workers. That means visas that let guest workers stay here while say... they look for a new job if fired. When unemployment insurance runs out, then go home.

Then we'll even see immigrant labor demanding equal wages for equal work, and the natives can celebrate.

engineers, damnit! (1)

indigoid (3724) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270744)

I would suggest that people be encouraged to study an engineering discipline rather than comp.sci. Where I work (and also among my circle of friends/associates outside the workplace) we have both, and the difference is truly stark.

Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (5, Interesting)

The Bungi (221687) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270770)

Every programmer out there who lived through the depression in our industry of 2001-2005

It wasn't a depression - it was a correction. The bubble burst on a million stupid overpriced and underdeveloped "products" created by "developers" who got $50K out of highschool because they knew how to spell "HTML". Frankly, I was happy to see them go back to whatever it was they were doing before.

Further, the "depression" wasn't specific to IT, nor was the IT industry the only one affected. You make it sound like you and your friends were the only ones who got shafted in 2001. And it ended in 2005? Give me a break, in most large to mid-sized markets the bloodletting was over by late 2002 to early 2003.

I'm sure you'll be gettin lots of karma tonight since the mods seem to like your "fuck Bill Gates" stance and seem to be modding down anyone who questions your wisdom. I do however wonder why no one on Slashdot finds some time to question the immigration policies of companies like IBM, who layoff thousands of American developers, sysadmins, project managers and analysts and then hire [wikipedia.org] hundreds of thousands of Indians and chinese to come work in the US for wages that are significantly less than the ones dictated by H1-B rules. In some cases they even hire back their old employees through consulting body shops at two thirds the cost (without any benefits whatsoever and lower salary).

At least Microsoft doesn't screw immigrants like IBM and other companies do. But IBM is the darling of the open source crowd, so mum's the word. I don't expect to see many articles around here detailing that sort of thing.

In the meantime though, it's always fun to bash Microsoft while ignoring the real problems. Take a gander at that Wikipedia article, let go of your "the corporation exists to serve me" philosphy for a second and think about what hurts this country more.

Depression my ass (4, Insightful)

ucblockhead (63650) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270818)

The job market for software people in 2001-2005 was little different from the job market in 1991-1995. What changed was that people entering the market during the boom thought the boom was normal.

I was part of interviews in 2004...trying to hire a software developer. A majority of "software developers" who applied couldn't write a goddamn recursive function in the language of their choice. 2001-2005 was not a "depression". It was the market returning to normal after a period where any warm body got three competing offers.

Re:Depression my ass (1)

maxume (22995) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270864)

I can code in html and have been learning about css!

Thanks Bill! (0, Troll)

geekoid (135745) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270250)

Apparently he thinks people from America aren't as smart as people in other countries.
The mis-conception is understanable. Smart people in the US don't need Microsoft to get a foot in the US door, where as immigrants need anything they can take to get out of there plague ridden countries.

troll? (0, Offtopic)

geekoid (135745) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270386)

hardly.
What could that post be trolling for?

Re:troll? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270428)

because you're a stupid cunt who embodies why people think americans are stupid -- the us needs those "plague ridden countries" more than ever now.

Re:Thanks Bill! (1)

SoulGook (1066846) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270412)

*shrug* The National Council of Teachers of Mathematics has been saying for years that we've been sucking it up in America, so I can hardly blame him, at least not for THIS particular comment.

Re:Thanks Bill! (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270686)

Since the pernetage of Comp sci. grads that can find work is so low, I don't think this is an issue.

MS is having a hard time getting good people, but I don't think it's because of a lack of talen so much as a lack of willingness to work at MS.

When working at MS meant working 70+ hours a week and making a boat load of money through options was one thing; now they want you to work the same hours, with almost no chance of cashing options and making a lot of money.

So you need other motivation to keep people, weathers it's perks, or a lower expected work hours, or more cash.
The point of my comment was that working someplace is relative to your goal.

An example:
Why would someone come to America to pick strawberries? It is a very hard and very painfull job.
Because it's better the what they have in their country.

Yes, I understand a larger issue of education in this country, and we need to improve it, but there are other factors as well.

How many people make a lot of money with mathmatics? When looking at the money math and science is not the way to go. So we have less people willing to spend there time in those studies. It's a shame, but it is a factor.
Hell, if I went to college again my major would be business. I would probably end up in a tech company, but at the top.

Re:Thanks Bill! (1)

SoulGook (1066846) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270884)

I totally get your point and even agree with you from an ideological perspective. That said, if I'm Bill Gates, I want the most possible hours for the lowest possible payout at the highest possible quality. If America indeed has a bunch of unemployed computer science graduates AND Bill Gates wants folks from outside, the only possible reason is that the money is talking, and if we're going to go along with good ol' American values, then WHY can't the money talk? We got mad at Microsoft for bucking capitalism. He's against these immigration policies because he's supporting capitalism in the grandest possible way: lining his pockets and those of his homies. Man, that's noble. So yeah, I don't like his reasoning, but in terms of looking out for his own interests, he's as genuine as you can get.

Re:Thanks Bill! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270916)

Smart people in the US don't need Microsoft to get a foot in the US door, where as immigrants need anything they can take to get out of there plague ridden countries.

Yet you still can't get the hang of "their", "there", and "they're". Way to go, smarty man!

Let me be the first to say... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270252)

Ouch!

640,000 immigrants (5, Funny)

biocute (936687) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270280)

Mr Gates did mention that 640K skilled immigrants ought to be enough for USA.

tell us what you really think (4, Insightful)

illegalcortex (1007791) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270290)

Bill Gates's public statements on immigration are about as credible as his public statements on Google's business plan. The man has a history of boldly lying when it suits his business interests. Why would anyone seriously consider his claims on this topic?

Re:tell us what you really think (1)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270636)

Why would anyone seriously consider his claims on this topic?

Because Gate's comments (Like Steve Jobs's blog about DRM) are self serving and corerct.

The last quote of the article really drives this point home:

"These reforms do not pit US workers against those foreign born," he said. "Far from displacing US workers, highly skilled foreign-born workers will continue to function as they always have: as job creators."

Just for the record.... (5, Informative)

canipeal (1063334) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270326)

Microsoft is also a fond supporter of H1B visa immigrants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B_visa/ [wikipedia.org] From my own personal experience working as an IT recruiter in the past, H1B Java Developers with similar education and experience often would work for about 30% less than a US citizen.

Re:Just for the record.... (2, Insightful)

daveb (4522) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270654)

From my own personal experience working as an IT recruiter in the past, H1B Java Developers with similar education and experience often would work for about 30% less than a US citizen.

yup - and that's the free market, competition and capitalism at work for you.

I'm just not sure what it is you're suggesting as a better alternative. Removing all barriers would undoubtedly improve the profitability of US businesses. Perhaps that's what you are advocating.

ok ... that's a troll-like statement. I'm really trying to point out that taking the chapest option which meets your needs is the truly competitive American way.

Re:Just for the record.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270718)

From my own personal experience working as an IT recruiter in the past, H1B Java Developers with similar education and experience often would work for about 30% less than a US citizen.

From my own personal experience, the developers who are willing to work for 30% less tend to have about 95% less skill than their colleagues, especially when they pad their resume with all of the right buzzwords and credentials.

A company I used to work for hired a number of these people from Bangladesh, India, or one of the south Asian nations. From what I heard, they filled their resumes with skills they basically didn't have. They did have very basic programming skills, but that was about it. If we ever asked them to perform a task that needed anything beyond sorting an array or iterating over a linked list, they stumbled horribly. The only reason they were hired was because they would work for significantly below the industry standard wage.

It was awful to work with those people. The language barrier was pretty terrible, but eventually we were able to communicate with each other to some degree. So we'd give them slightly difficult tasks, but instead of telling us they were having problems, they'd say things were going great. They'd tell us what they thought we'd ideally want to hear, which from what I understand is a custom in their homeland. Of course, we just wanted the truth. We wanted to know if things weren't going well. So several weeks later, we'd ask them to check in their work. And you know what? They'd have essentially nothing done. And what was done was often completely buggy, and unusable.

I left that company after about six months of those shenanigans. I'd spend more time trying to fix the problems introduced by the on-the-cheap developers, rather than doing the development I needed to be doing. And in the end, I don't think the company actually saved any money. They probably lost several hundred thousand dollars, since these workers didn't produce anything, and actually took valuable time away from those employees who could actually get work done (since we had to fix their mistakes, and do all of the development they couldn't manage). Had the company just paid up for talented developers, they would have been far better off financially, in terms of productivity, and in terms of product quality.

Can't compete with Google (5, Interesting)

smose (877816) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270334)

The mantle of "hire the best, no matter the cost" has been assumed by Google. The good ones from MS all burned out long ago, and they aren't going back. The rest of the best in this country would cost MS too much to hire, or won't take any offer because they find MS to be unsavory.

Gates has to look overseas -- it's the only place he has left.

Translation (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270344)

Among his comments: "I personally witness the ill effects of these policies on an almost daily basis at Microsoft.""

In other words, I think my employees suck.

the future (5, Funny)

User 956 (568564) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270364)

According to Gates, the US is losing skilled immigrants to other countries that are easier to immigrate to.

Not to mention the US ban on human cloning. At this rate, with no immigrant labor, and no clone slaves, our future workforce is going to be heavily reliant on robots. And we all know how well that always turns out.

Re:the future (1)

CrazyJim1 (809850) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270592)

Not to mention the US ban on human cloning. At this rate, with no immigrant labor, and no clone slaves, our future workforce is going to be heavily reliant on robots. And we all know how well that always turns out.

Yes, in a show of hightened self esteem, Bill Gates installs Windows Vista(TM) on all the robots. Unfortunately one wrong voice command and all the robots are selected to become double the killers of any man.

Strange, given all the outsourcing (2, Insightful)

iamacat (583406) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270366)

Why would he care where people immigrate to, as long as they work for Microsoft? Of course, outsourcing laws themselves need to be tightened. If nothing else, outsourced employees are not paying US income taxes and are neither protected by or obligated to any US laws. It's only fair to at least impose duties to cover their use of US public infrastructure that local companies pay for in taxes. Also if, say, Chinese government has any issues with MS software, corporate executables should be extradited to serve time in Chinese re-education camps, or whatever punishment is deemed appropriate by the local government. One should be required to follow SOME country's laws completely.

I agree with Gates, let them in (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270370)

But raise the quota in a controlled fashion so we aren't flooded by H1Bs over the next couple years.

I've always said, I'd rather compete against the guy down the hall making an American wage, than someone in India, China, or Vietnam making 20 percent of what I'm making. Even if I can outperform that guy 5 to 1, it's hard to convince upper management of that. And yes, America has always benefited from the influx of restless talent from foreign shores. Our colleges need them, our startups need them, our Fortune 1000 companies need them. Now is not the time to encourage a brain drain going the other way.

Re:I agree with Gates, let them in (2, Insightful)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270442)

Our colleges need them, our startups need them, our Fortune 1000 companies need them.

But the question is why the need? With 300 million Americans, there must be a price point that will make getting a CS degree profitable enough to attract employees. Or is it that these three groups just refuse to pay that price point?

Re:I agree with Gates, let them in (1)

doktor-hladnjak (650513) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270588)

They basically refuse to pay that price point because above a certain pay level it's simply more economical to offshore the job.

Re:I agree with Gates, let them in (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270702)

They basically refuse to pay that price point because above a certain pay level it's simply more economical to offshore the job.

I can think of an easy answer for that one: Ban imports. Put the United States into isolationist mode. Label anybody who does business offshore for what they are: A traitor, worthy only of execution. That should stop that argument dead in it's tracks, pardon the pun. And wait until inflation brings the rest of the world up to our standard of living, or until we degrade down to theirs.

Gates may be right (1)

mastershake_phd (1050150) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270372)

Gates may be right. Im surprised Microsoft hasnt outsourced large amounts of its programming and customer service jobs yet. Gates basically saying theyll have no choice if they cant import the talent they need. Well paid immigrants keep money in our economy.

Re:Gates may be right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270456)

IMHO, there is greater corporate risk to your IP when you outsource functions that are close to it offshore.

Re:Gates may be right (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270470)

They're already doing it- Microsoft has a huge R&D center in Bangalore that they used to prevent the hiring of highly paid American citizens during the 2001 high tech depression.

Re:Gates may be right (1)

maxume (22995) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270552)

You mean avoid, not prevent.

Re:Gates may be right (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270678)

You mean avoid, not prevent.

Depends on if you took your parent's advice and took out a 30 year mortgage at the start of your so-called "career" or not. :-) But yes, I see outsourcing and H-1b labor as preventing the rise in wages that would otherwise happen to correct the market- and that prevents hiring Americans. Prevent is the correct word.

Re:Gates may be right (2, Interesting)

maxume (22995) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270800)

Protectionism will not help 'correct' the market. People are selfish. People in India and China and elsewhere are very interested in increasing the quality of their lives. When Microsoft invests overseas, it makes profits, profits that it brings back here. If they didn't do that investment, *someone else would*, and in the long run, people would go with the cheaper option, and Microsoft would get put out of business by a foreign company. This would benefit the foreign country a great deal more than it would benefit the US.

As an example, the protectionism endemic in the auto industry in the 1980s and 1990s is currently biting them in the ass, hard. Unions prevented plant upgrades at domestic manufacturers, but at the same time, agreed to work in modern plants owned by foreign brands, and all of the sudden the foreign plants were a lot more profitable to run(the "we'll pay that later" accounting surrounding pensions is a huge, separate issue, that Unions would have done better preventing had they asked for the money upfront, instead of promises, which when made by mere mortals are worth the words they are said with).

Re:Gates may be right (2, Interesting)

nermaljcat (895576) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270492)

If a worker is outsourced, all the money goes overseas. If they immigrate, most of it is spent in the US. Also, there is a shortage of workers. Companies can't fill the positions locally. If immigrants were stealing jobs from (adequately skilled) local workers then maybe there should be some more restrictions, but that's not the case. Salaries aren't that fantastic in the US, the UK pays better and have a more modern immigration policy. Even a lot of jobs in Australia pay better too. Gates is a tool. But he could have a point.

Re:Gates may be right (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270532)

Microsoft has a lot of offices in many different countries. US, UK, Canada, Germany, India, UAE (Dubai) etc. They do hire a lot of people outside the US.

However, they do pay their H1-Bs a lot of money compared to many other companies. People scream about companies who hire H1-Bs for lower wages than domestic workers, but Microsoft is very good about paying them the market salary or better. They also provide a lot of legal services etc for them to get their green card etc.

How does this make math a good career choice? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270388)

I'm perplexed at Bill's thinking here. He apparently doesn't think US students are getting enough math and science or are going into that field. So his solution is to bring over endentured servents for a fraction of a US worker's salary to make up for the slack.

What's a smart college bound kid going to do? Go into math and science when he's competing against people that will always work for a lot less than he wants to make, or go into law and become an ambluance chasing attorney?

And to top it off: Bill wants a technical solution to this company's incomptence in hiring people and getting into markets. Bill your stock price is flat not due to that you don't have the best C++ coder that knows how to make recursive data structures, it is because your business model is outdated and you don't have anything exciting in the pipeline.

Course this is rational behavior for someone who can't continue to run his business: say "look our problem is X and if only you let me do Y I would still be making money in the stock market"

Re:How does this make math a good career choice? (5, Insightful)

LibertineR (591918) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270648)

A smart college kid would choose a career based on what they love to do, rather than on money, or they just are not a smart kid to begin with. It makes no sense to destroy your life doing something you dont want to do, because the odds are, you will suck at it and be a failure anyway.

Do what you love, or suck at anything else. You could end up being better than others, but never as good as you could be at the thing you love to do.

Re:How does this make math a good career choice? (4, Insightful)

aeoo (568706) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270784)

Bingo.

Money is irrelevant. Money is only relevant when you love 2 things more or less equally and there is a large difference in income between them.

If you hate plumbing and you get into plumbing to make money...yea, you'll be a shit plumber who will make his own life miserable and lives around them as well! And in the end probably get a bum rep and never get another plumbing contract.

Do what you love. It's the only thing that makes sense. The same is true after you're hired. You gotta do what you love regardless of what management tells you to do, because following orders against your nature won't help neither you nor your management.

There's lots of evidence on this (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270394)

http://www.creativeclass.org/_flight_articles.shtm l [creativeclass.org]

Richard Florida, author of "The Rise of the Creative Class" has written another book "The Flight of the Creative Class". The books are the result of his research on why some cities prosper better than others. He points out a couple of things: 1 - Some people are better for the economy than others. 2 - The people we need to drive the economy won't follow jobs to places they hate living. One of the reasons our economy has been so good is because we have been able to attract the best scientists, doctors and entrepreneurs from the rest of the world. If we drive these people away, it's our loss and we will suffer.

On a slightly different topic, I note that farmers in Colorado can't get the labor they need because of the tighter border control. Cutting our nose off to spite our face is truly clueless. We need these people.

Re:There's lots of evidence on this (3, Insightful)

f0dder (570496) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270504)

Anyone who has ever attended college only need look at where the graduation ceremonies are held. Engineers get dinky basketball gymnasium. Business gets school coliseum.

Re:There's lots of evidence on this (3, Insightful)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270530)

On a slightly different topic, I note that farmers in Colorado can't get the labor they need because of the tighter border control. Cutting our nose off to spite our face is truly clueless. We need these people.

Sorry, but whoever told you that is the granddaddy of all liars. Farmers in Colorado (and other states) can't get the labor they need because they refuse to pay a living wage for that labor and accept the inflation in food prices that comes from paying a living wage. The border control isn't any tighter- border patrol agents who actually use guns to enforce the border get sent to jail, and the National Guard troops we've sent there don't have any ammo. If anything, the border control is LOOSER than it was in the 1990s.

Re:There's lots of evidence on this (1)

terrymr (316118) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270896)

What do you want ? The Berlin wall ?

here we have it (4, Interesting)

phaetonic (621542) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270406)

How is stemming illegal immigration going to hurt Microsoft from issuing H1B visas? I have not heard about making it more difficult for legal immigrants, just illegal.

Re:here we have it (1)

caffeinemessiah (918089) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270582)

The number of H1B visas is already quite restrictive. I think a loosening up on the annual quota is what he was talking about. Seems like there's more demand than supply.

Re:here we have it (1)

chill (34294) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270616)

He wasn't talking about illegal immigration, but rather legal immigration and the problem with lumping all immigration together in one debate.

This is expected. (1, Insightful)

ErichTheRed (39327) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270408)

You can't expect business owners to be against a system that allows them to import what they perceive to be better-quality workers. It's not a popular stance, but I truly believe we're sowing the seeds of our own techie demise. Why?
1. Our educational system is getting progressively worse. Students do not come out of most American schools with a good grasp of math and science. IN developing countries like China and India, they're turning out well-educated workers all the time. We don't force students to study, and there's no consequence for failure. Worse yet, should you not graduate from college, you're stuck in a low-level service job for the rest of your life. Large companies won't even look at candidates with no degree anymore. (I've noticed this first-hand...there are way more underqualified college graduates in the corporate world than there were 10 years ago.)
2. We feel entitled to way more than we're actually worth. It really makes me angry when I see people with mediocre skills making the same or more than me, just because they're good negotiators and can game the system. Also, have you seen what entry-level students are demanding to be paid just out of school? News flash: even if you live in New York City, asking for $55K for an entry-level job is way out of line with reality. One of the reasons the outsourced and immigrant labor pool is attractive is cost. New grads in other countries don't demand insane salaries or complain because the work is difficult.
3. Right or wrong, American tech workers are often considered lazy and painted as having a bad attitude. Giving your life over to your job is stupid, but complaining every time you have to put in an extra hour or two is going to accelerate the trend offshore.
4. Our costs are way out of proportion with the rest of the world. If people would learn to use credit responsibly, live within their means and reduce their consumption, they wouldn't need 5-6% raises every year, or hop jobs every year for a 10% raise.

Gates may be using this to his advantage, but I can't say I disagree totally! You have two labor pools. One is addicted to flashy cars and gadgets, and costs an average of $80K a year per person. The other is smarter, happy to be working, and costs much less. If you were running Slashdot Software, Inc., which would you pick?

Re:This is expected. (1)

Trailwalker (648636) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270604)

In India they are "turning out" only a small portion of their population:



Education
Adult literacy rate,male (1990) 62
Adult literacy rate,female (1990) 36
Adult literacy rate,male (2000) 68
Adult literacy rate,female (2000) 45
No. of phones sets per 100 people (2002) 5
No. of internet users per 100 people (2002) 2
Primary school enrolment ratio,gross,male (1998-2002) 107
Primary school enrolment ratio,gross,female (1998-2002) 90
Primary school enrolment ratio,net,male(1998-2002) 91
Primary school enrolment ratio,net,female (1998-2002) 76
% of net primary school attendance,male,(1996-2003) 80
% of net primary school attendance,female,(1996-2003) 73
% of primary school entrants reaching grade 5,admin data (1998-2001) 59
% of primary school entrants reaching grade 5,survey data (1997-2003) 92
Secondary school enrolment ratio,gross,male (1998-2002) 56
Secondary school enrolment ratio,gross,female (1998-2002) 40

Quickly found googling Indian Educational Statistics

Re:This is expected. (1)

Elfboy (144703) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270754)

1.Full agreement there. The Educational system (both public and private) is horrendously borked.

2. Hate to break it to you but 55k in NYC or SF is not all that obscene or insane these days. A bit high maybe, but not insane for someone competent. For a recent college educated grad, that still means several roommates, broken-down car and basic eating. (check craigslist for rent, factor in Student loans and tax rates...). Quick breakdown. ~35k after taxes, 12k/year in rent, 8k/year in food, 5k/year in gas/car, 2k/year student loan (assuming low payment option). That leaves about 8k for all the other expenses in life...and like I said, 55k was a bit high.

3. Extra hour or two. Fine. I've yet to really see management who doesn't take a mile when an inch is given. (~8 years in Silicon Valley right now)

4. Yes costs are out of proportion to the rest of the world. Yes credit is abused. But the 5%-6% raise per year is just to maintain the same buying power from year to year (google: COLA and Cost of Living Allowance). Without these slight raises, one is in effect taking a 5% pay cut from year to year (iirc that's what COLA increases have been averaging)

Re:This is expected. (1)

Sancho (17056) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270758)

Of course, college tuition keeps rising, which means that it takes more time/money to profit from the education. Of course graduates want more money to make up that cost!

America is really in a downward spiral of inflation. We had a great economy many years ago based primarily on sheer raw materials. Now, tiny electronic parts are the new 'raw materials', and we get them all from Asia. They're put together and sold in America (you think the people working for $0.30/hr in sweatshops can afford them? Who do you think supports the companies that make all the flashy goods you referred to? Overpaid Americans!)

We're probably less than a century away from seeing one world currency and all artificial trade barriers (primarily national lines) dissolved. At that point, there will be an economy truly based upon value for the work you do--and if someone in another country does the work better on average, that country will start to prosper more than the US.

Abolish all nations (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270416)

The border is simply an imaginary line enforced with real guns. Nations are cages. Borders divide people.

I imagine a day when any person can freely travel across the planet (not unlike freely travelling in your own country).

Why is it that corporations (money) has the freedom to travel anywhere they want, yet ordinary people aren't.

You want free trade? Then I want the right to sell my labour anywhere i choose.

Re:Abolish all nations (1)

vandan (151516) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270700)

That's the most insightful anonymous post I've ever seen. Well said, comrade :)

Fuck him (4, Insightful)

Average_Joe_Sixpack (534373) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270422)

It's alright for tech workers and engineers to have their wages depressed by opening up the borders meanwhile the MBAs, lawyers, physicians and such are under no such threat. If you're going to open up the floodgates at least make it equal opportunity.

The wrong idea (2, Insightful)

ZDRuX (1010435) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270440)

I think a lot of the people here are looking at this from the wrong angle. He doesn't specifically target ONLY programmers, or ONLY network technicians. It seems his general idea is that most people coming into this country with very high skills in different fields posess the knowledge and intelligence to be a real great asset to the country, but are turned down because they are immigrants.

This same talk has recently been appearing in Canadian news papers, where a lot of scientists, doctors, lawyers, and IT people come to Canada or the U.S. in hopes of offering their knowledge to these two countries, but instead end up working at coffee shops, driving taxi's, or working cleaning jobs and night doing general jobs. If I`m not mistaken, this is what Bill Gates is trying to say.

Regardless of what his intentions are, I think what I`m talking about here is a legitimate issue which should be looked at, without worrying who is trying to get this idea across.

Me being an immigrant myself, I can tell you that is indeed a problem, with my father going throught different levels of school and universities in Poland, but ending up being a machine maintenance worker for some plant.

And why? Because he simply doesn't have the benefit of fluently speaking english, and Canada not recognizing his skills at all, which I think is a shame for both the country and my family, since we could both benefit from placing these people in the fields where they would be a lot more usefull.

Re:The wrong idea (1)

daviee (137644) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270888)

Your father is in a rather unfortunate scenario; but I don't think that's what Bill is trying to say. His issue is getting people into the country, not in recognizing their talents/certifications once they are here. With the latter case, the restriction is normally imposed by the industry and not by the country.

How will increasing the cost of windows help ppl? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270454)

Why are people up in arms over this .. he should be allowed to hire anyone he wants to.
MS Windows is exported the world over. It's an international product. Should Linux be restricted to Finnish programmers? And Ipods to the British (where jonathan ive is from).

What's with people hysterical xenophobia?? No country can isolate itself and progress.

Cheaper labor increases corporate profits, but that money is stored as assets in financial institutions.The banks can give out many times the assets owned amount in loans that are used for things like energy harvesting, pharmaceuticals, housing, start-ups, building cars. Etc. Crap that improves quality of life.

All the stuff we have .. higher per capita cell phones, cars, computers, etc. would be unsustainable even if the 5% unemployed people went to work in factories.
No instead you would have people leaving comfy desk jobs to work hard labor in factories. Resulting in overall innovation reducing.

But whatever, I cant change xenophobia with logic and rationality.

Changing Opinions. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270508)

Wow, suddenly I almost feel like there should be stricter immigration laws!

The core of the issue (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270520)

The core of the issue is that the education system is broken in the USA and it would require to collect more taxes from businesses, from individuals to fix it. It's much easier to "import" better educated people from other coutries, which are willing to spend the money on traing their citizens. It also serves the splended great purpose to keep the American workforce more competitive, which is of course also benefits the profitability of the American companies.

Basically, Microsoft and Bill Gates pays less taxes, which are supposed to be paid for better quality education, in return he steals away money from those (usually less developed) countries which are willing to finance better quality education. The unlimited number of "imported" workers keep the American labour cheaper. As we can see, Mr. Gates and Microsoft (with other companies) benefits all the way at every single turn - it's always the other parties who pay the price.

I hope he will get the Nobel Prize for his unselfish philantrophy some day.

Shortage myth (5, Insightful)

Supercooldude (1018122) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270542)

Every time I hear someone complain about the "desperate shortage of skilled programmers" I want to punch him in the face. To see how false this is, all one needs do is look at the extremely low percentage of recent comp-sci grads who can find work as programmers. The majority of them have to work in some semi-technical job such as tech support, or in some cases can't find jobs in the computer field at all. When I graduated, it took me 8 months to find a job, meanwhile the entire time so-called experts were claiming a desperate shortage of programmers and demanding an increase in the H-1B quota. The problem is that employers too often have ridiculously specific requirements. Ten years ago, a typical job ad would say something like "C++ programmer needed, with 2 years experience". Today, a typical ad requires "6 years Java experience in a commercial environment, 3 years J2EE web-based development, Swing, JSP, Servlets, EJB, XML, DOM/SAX, advanced knowledge of application servers (primarily Weblogic and WebSphere), Advanced knowledge of database connectivity and integration. (Oracle, DB2 and SQL Server). And when they can't find someone with /exactly/ the skills they're looking for, they complain about a labor shortage. They don't realize that a skilled C++ programmer could become productive in C# in a very short amount of time, because these are transferable skills. That would be like Chevy refusing to hire a skilled Ford mechanic. It just doesn't happen in any other field but ours. And if they absolutely /have/ to have someone who meets those exact requirements, then they could find him if they offered a high enough salary.

Re:Shortage myth (1)

Renraku (518261) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270598)

Do you think the immigrants have these qualifications? Hell no.

All they have to do is have proof that they've tried and tried and tried to find someone with these requirements and can't. Then they get the OK to hire a foreign worker.

I can bet if someone could possibly have all that experience, they wouldn't be applying for that job. They'd already be with a company somewhere, with decades of experience, making a lot more than starting pay at another job. It would be like me putting an ad in the paper for someone with a master's degree for $10 an hour. Like anyone with a master's degree would work for that. Then I hire Pablo from Mexico to teach at my school because I couldn't find an American willing to work for pay that shitty.

Re:Shortage myth (1, Troll)

GigsVT (208848) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270614)

The problem isn't the job market, it's the CS programs. CS is not a programming degree, and even if it were, a BS degree isn't worth much more than the paper it's printed on.

Skilled programmers that are smart skip college. You'll have 4 years of experience while your friends have a worthless piece of paper, 4 years of lost income, and a $40,000 hole in their wallets.

Re:Shortage myth (1)

ErichTheRed (39327) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270664)

Don't forget that companies might be seeing the problem through a different lens. Those that outsource extensively often put out ads like that. The Big Five consulting firms have plenty of "experts" with that job description.

The problem is, they're not experts. I've had experience dealing with a couple big consultancies (Accenture and IBM.) The consulting firm that finds the people in your want ad has this exact business model:
1. Hire Ivy League school graduates with the promise of travel and riches.
2. Train them for 6 weeks to be buzzword compliant, look good in a suit, and blend in at meetings.
3. Present proposal to customer with "experts" on your project.
3. "Experts" show up, and get free on-the-job training on your system/project.
4. Bill customer many times the experts' salaries.
5. Profit! (even if the project fails.)

(Consulting has its place, but I really think executives don't know what they're buying when they sign the checks.)

Re:Shortage myth (2, Insightful)

dorkygeek (898295) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270736)

You do realise though that Computer Science is not only about programming? The positions you described can easily be filled with somebody who only had vocational training, at least over here in Europe.

Re:Shortage myth (1)

Supercooldude (1018122) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270878)

Agreed, but if comp-sci grads (who we agree are qualified to do more than just be code monkeys) can't even find programming jobs, then surely something is wrong with our industry.

Re:Shortage myth (1)

ZDRuX (1010435) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270756)

Couldnt have said it better myself. I`m by no means a "super geek" who knows C++ and every thing in between. But I'd certainly like to get started in the networking field. I've done all the crappy certs like A+ iNET+ CCNA, and now moving to CCNP. Anytime I look for some entry-level position that will even pay me $14/hr I find that on top of all the things I already know, they require 20 different other "web apps" and programming languages, and you have to have 5 years in each in 3 different fields. It's ridiculious.

Disgusting: Gates funds La Raza &Immigration (1)

gd23ka (324741) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270622)

I think the US is the easiest country in the world to immigrate to.
And as soon as you're over the border be sure to visit your nearest
Bank of America branch and get yourself some real American plastic
courtesy of Mastercard *.

* Offer not valid in some states and limited to fluent spanish speakers
with dark complexion. Citizens and natives need not apply.

We didn't forget you are funding La Raza, Gates.

Don't believe me?

Hear it directly from the horse's Mouth, here's your one-click proof link:
http://www.nclr.org/section/about/funding/ [nclr.org] (National Council of La Raza "The Race")

And to add insult to injury, guess who else is funding the "greatest
Latino Civil Rights and Advocacy Organization: ...
U.S. Department of Commerce

U.S. Department of Education

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development

U.S. Department of Labor ...

  I am disgusted.

FIGHT BACK - http://www.numbersusa.com (1)

PimpDawg (852099) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270624)

Step 1 - log in to http://www.numbersusa.com/index [numbersusa.com] Step 2 - subscribe to H-1B updates Step 3 - send free faxes to your congressmen. You don't need to agree with nubmersusa on every topic, just H-1B. It's the only way to fight back. Finally, donate money to them. I have and it's paid off. They have been able to thwart several increases to the H-1B cap. Don't be a freeloader - it's your job on the line.

Re:FIGHT BACK - http://www.numbersusa.com (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270788)

Congratulations. You have stopped a lot of people of the world from finding jobs and acted to reduce the wealth of America. Have a cookie!

Right to criticise, but wrong basis (1)

vandan (151516) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270638)

Gates is right to criticize US immigration policy, which causes a great deal of hardship for people who are fleeing desparate situations ( which, I might add, the US is not exactly an innocent bystander in ). But Gates is wrong to use economic arguments as the basis for his attacks ... the main argument is that it ( immigration policy ) is unethical. The reason why this is important comes to light when you ask the question, "What about unskilled migrants. Of course Gates, Dubya, and the rest of the establishment is fine to let them rot on the borders ( or be shot by redneck, self-appointed border police ), because there's no guarantee they'll contribute to profit-making in the short term. But skilled migrants who can contribute to profit-making immediately ... hell ... let them in, so they can increase the labour pool and decrease wages, quick!

We are all Immigrants. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270666)

First person here who can claim much more than 150+ plus of both sides of their family as US citizens gets a cookie, if West Coast/central US, drops to 100 years.

I'd be willing to bet pretty much everyone posting in this thread is the descendent of no more than 3-4 generations of immigrants on both sides of their families at most.

I like the whining people do about immigrants all the time, it really isnt new, look at newspapers in the 1840's/1860's/1880's/1900's etc and you'll see the same things that are in the news now about such things. the United States is a nation of immigrants.

Re:We are all Immigrants. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270752)

Heh, pretty much everything from Texas to Oregon/California was part of the nation of Mexico until the US siezed it/US farmers rebelled,etc...

I don't think we have a right to complain much.

Re:We are all Immigrants. (1)

rossz (67331) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270802)

Since 1636 on my father's side, shortly after that on my mom's. We've been here since before here was a country. The Mayflower carried the help over and we followed in a later ship (I love annoying those snobbish Mayflower assholes).

Re:We are all Immigrants. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270904)

so every single person in your entire background is a direct descendant of someone who came in that early? You have no direct ancestors that came in any later or from other places?

I doubt that very much.

mIod 3own (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270688)

thems3Lves to be a

An open letter from Bill Gates (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270710)

Dear United States of America,

Please stop awarding high school diplomas to students who wouldn't recognize a quadratic equation if it walked up to them at a mall and screamed, "I am a quadratic equation!"

Signed,
Bill Gates

PS Don't bother recentering the SAT scores, you aren't fooling anyone.

The US has only itself to blame for that. (0, Flamebait)

Pig Hogger (10379) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270782)

Though fucking noogies.

The United States bears within the seeds of it's own destruction. By indoctrinating kids with the notion of having money instead of doing something worthwile, it will only promote the learning of parasitic, destructive and lucrative crafts like lawyer, salesman or MBA.

Exactly 50 years ago, in 1957, Sputnick was launched and shocked the USA in realizing that their Science education was not at par with the pinko soviet communists. Since those 50 years, the US has entered a downdrain spiral of falling into "easy" mind tricks, illustrated most eloquently by the extreme rise of religious people who, as a matter of faith, will outright reject science.

It's not for nothing that muslims countries are ass-backwards: their religion impedes Science, just as the christianity is impeding Science in the USA.

There is no way out, unless the USA will ditch it's anglo-saxon greedyness mindset, dump the religion in the garbage heap of History (shooting all evangelists in the head oughta do it, as well as compulsory mixed masturbation classes for boys and girls) and get it's ass back together properly.

In the meanwhile, enlightened countries in Europe will sit back and have a good laugh at the USA's self-destructive habits consume it in an orgy of god-dictated stupidity.

Bills Billions (1)

rzrzedg (252492) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270796)

Seems like no matter how much money he has his personality continues to show through, looking for the easiest way to make money, with the least amount of effort. Bill take those billions, and train the millions of poor children in America to run the future, you can afford it, just like you can afford American workers.

Lets build a wall, a thousand feet high all the way around our country, before its diluted in third world status. I am from Arizona and know the devistating effects on economy that these people cause. American workers cost more, we know it, and we deserve it.

Supply and Deman (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18270820)

FTA:
The comments marked the latest attack on restrictive US immigration policies by the technology industry, which is facing a shortage of skilled workers even as demand for their skills is increasing.

If there is a smaller supply of workers and greater demands; that would equal a higher price paid for each worker. A lot of industries have taken a beating; and there is a surplus of workers. Companies can justify to pay crap for a skilled position because someone needs a job and will work for anything. So in essence companies can pay crap and choose the best of the best for little money. So, the market is turning around and you still want to pay shit for positions. Tough!!!!

Now; if someone is going to point to outsourcing because lack of labor supply; guess again. If a company is going to outsource to save money, it will be outsourced no matter what. It is economics; it will happen no matter what; due to the globalization of work forces. There are several countries that pay less per hour than US; due to a lower cost of living. We can debate this till the cows come home; and I still say tough.

I don't blame companies for cost cutting; but I do hold them accountable for putting together B.S. stories so they can get a cheaper supply of labor.

Too much book-learnin' for me (1)

laxisusous (693625) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270842)

If Bill was really concerned that US kids are not getting taught right, why doesn't he open a computer college himself? That way he can rake in the money based on the MS brand, and he will have minons already brought into the MS way. I'll tell you why, those minons will want to be paid at non-immigrant wages. Money is the real reason for everything Bill said.

Difficult? (1)

zbend (827907) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270882)

Maybe it is difficult, I'm not certian. I do know the US immigrates more people than all other countrys in the world combined. So its apparently worth the effort.

Sorry, Bill - no more slaves for you (1)

Whuffo (1043790) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270914)

Maybe if Microsoft offered competitive wages and treated its employees well this wouldn't be an issue. However, to better generate obscene levels of profit, Bill and company have chosen to lie, cheat, and steal. If you think the way they've treated the American consumer is bad - you should see what they do to their employees.

This only goes just so far, though. Before long, all the people with the skills you need have heard about your business style and become hard to hire. That doesn't mean that there aren't an abundance of skilled employees that could fill your openings - it just means that they don't want to work for Microsoft.

So companies like Microsoft love the H1B program. They can employ immigrants far less expensively than American workers - under conditions that are indistinguishable from slavery.

But that's not what the linked article is about. We're talking about illegal immigrants here - what possible interest in this could Microsoft have - unless their business depends upon employing undocumented illegal aliens. What does Bill know that he's not talking about that would lead him to issue such a public statement?

The root of all evil is......... (1)

pottymouth (61296) | more than 7 years ago | (#18270918)

........the love of money. Unfortunately that's all American business seems to be about. If that doesn't change we're all doomed, techies and non-techies alike. There are still some forces for good but when a lump of dung like Bill Gates get's press with this type of statement it makes me wonder if we can survive. Gates saying we need more H1B's is like Bill Clinton calling for more young female interns (and cigars). Give me break!
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