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Creative Labs GPLs dxr2 DVD Decoder Drivers

Hemos posted more than 14 years ago | from the yet-more-bounty-from-creative-labs dept.

Hardware 109

The Dakota Kidd writes "Just saw this on Linuxgames today - Creative has released the drivers for their dxr2 DVD decoder card. It isn't listed yet on Creative's Open Source page but it is in the CVS repository. " Kinda lost in the excitment of their open sourcing the drivers for SB Live!, but yet more good news on the hardware support front.Credit where it's due: Andrew deQuincey and Lucien Murray-Pitts actually wrote the code - it's nice to be able to get it now.

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mknod doesn't want to work :( (1)

HeUnique (187) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568798)

got the driver.. compiled and installed the .o files..

now trying to mknod the device..

[hetz@hetz-linux dxr2]# mknod c /dev/dxr2 120 0
Try `mknod --help' for more information.

Any help here?

Who should get the Fame & Limitations of Driver (5)

kju (327) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568799)

I dislike this. Creative is taking the Fame for this Driver and is using it for their own public relations.

To clarify: This driver was not written by Creative. In fact its creation wasn't even supported by Creative with information about the hardware. I mailed with the author and he had to find out all informations by himself either by reference manuals or reverse engineering.

Now all Creative did was adding their Copyright messages (what a laugh!) and making the driver public available via their server. And they cheated the programmers again, as they made it available on their CVS without telling them how to access it, or even that the published it. When i mailed the author about this, he just didn't knew, that the driver where available in public.

Sorry, but if this is the way Creative wants to go in future for Linux "Support" i won't recommend buying their products.

And now for some clarification about the driver: As creative didn't helped the driver is still unstable and without many features. And the main parts of DVD (the navigation) are not contained. You may now play a VOB-File from the Disc (if the file is not encrypted). But you are missing all the DVD features, and if there are some extras mixed in one file, you will have to play them sequentially.

It is not very likely, that DVD navigation will be supported very soon, as the DVD forum has maked this a closed standard, which you have to pay for access and even sign a NDA.

So this driver is a first step, but will not really be helpful for dvd playing.

The only one who may help is Creative, as they have signed the NDA and have the standards. They would need to release a (binary-only) module for navigation and other issues. But if they continue to use other peoples work without doing anything thereselfs, this is not to be awaited.

In short: There is no fame which Creative can take for this driver. The haven't done anything and they even didn't show the willingness to do something in the future. This may change, but in the moment it doesn't look like.

If you want to watch DVD on Linux you better stick with a company which is truly supporting linux on their products. For example the guys from linuxtv.org/convergence.de will have a dvd decoder card for linux very likely till the end of this year in production. I'm not affiliated with them in any way, i just know them from the livid mailinglist. But they are truly supporting linux and not just taking other peoples work. So support them!

Re:Dxr2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568800)

I thought about that too, but the picture was really good when I just turned down the brightness of my monitor. Otherwise, you can just unplug your card from the dxr2 while you are watching? Don't get the on-screen remote, but oh well.

How about Hollywood+ ? (1)

toni (3262) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568801)

I've understood that the Sigma Legends/Realmagic Hollywood+ uses the same chip as the Dxr2. Any luck of using these drivers with the H+?

Well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568802)

They have added a few lines about the author right now, I'm not sure when though. Ah, the beauty of computer information, click click and it is gone or something is added. "It was always there!" they can say :)

Don't you wonder about the kind of people who work at these companies? I don't think the hardware or software engineers are the ones saying "don't open the driver source!"

Re:How about Hollywood+ ? (1)

jxxx (88447) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568803)

I dont know about the dxr2, but the dxr3 is a Sigma Designs Hollywood+. I would guess that they would not be compatible, as Creative provides drivers for the dxr2 that will work with WinNT, but not for the dxr3.

Re:How about Hollywood+ ? (1)

Leapfrog (4220) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568804)

Gee, he sounded really positive about it. Seems like the answer's clear: Go the Xanim route. Release GPL'd (or some other open-source licensed) drivers and apps but keep the CSS closed and only distribute it as a compiled object.

Since the unruly among us have come up with a way to brute-force CSS, it shouldn't be hard to plug in a non-proprietary (and clean roomed) brute hack for the pure of source, or just use the shared object for the faint of heart.

Re:Dxr2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568805)

Wrong! okay, I had to explain this to someone earlier today. the normal video (not dvd)signal goes
videocard->dxr2->monitor
when playing a DVD, the signal for the DVD is
DXR2->monitor.
The video card never sees the DVD signal. the dxr2 displays DIRECTLY to the monitor! It DOES NOT go through the passthrough. okay?

still, don't let companies get slack... (1)

Barbarian (9467) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568806)

Sometimes perhaps development should be handled in house, and a company may be tempted to release their shoddy existing code for others to fix for free.

I'm not saying this is the case with Creative, but be careful about rejoicing about source code releases. If a company is expecting to get great results with open source, but they release something no one is interested in (not the case here), it may completely cause them to swear it off.

In other words, if a mainstream company starts considering open source programmer contributions as a savings on it's balance sheet, start to worry.

Too bad my Dxr2 board just bit the dust... (1)

blakdeth (56103) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568807)

This is great! I'm really happy with Creative's Linux support. Too bad my Dxr2 card just bit the dust.

I've had it for about a year and a half now, meaning the warranty is up.


Anyway, I'm not exactly sure what the problem is. It seems that when my video
card is lopped through the Dxr2 board and then out to my monitor, the video
image is all blue! If you giggle the cable, the monitor loses the signal. I
contacted Creative, and they said the ports were probably loose. Not as far as
I can tell.

Anybody have any suggestion about how to fix it?

If not, anyone want to sell one cheap?

Bd

If you want to play DVD, use Windows ! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568808)

Linux is not suited for this kind of *multimedia* use.

On the other hand, I'm enjoying my DVD collection under Win98, there are many oh-so-cool players out there like WinDVD or PowerDVD.

Looks like Creative is listening (4)

handorf (29768) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568809)

Well, looking at opensource.creative.com, they're now crediting the author with the driver:
Also hosted on this site are the driver sources for DXR2

cards. These driver were donated to Creative, but are written and maintained by Andrew de Quincey.


Anybody got a "fe-sure" on if encrypted DVDs work or not? I'd love to plop in my new bubblegum crisis dvd tonight, but I'd REALLY love to watch it under Linux.
-- I'm omnipotent, I just don't care.

What about the DRX3?! (1)

ArchAngelQ (35053) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568810)

I'm sure someone has brought this up by now, but what about thouse of us with the DRX3 decoder? I mean, I bought mine when I knew windows was the only thing I'd be able to play dvds under, but now that DRX2 users have another option, I'd like to have one too. I'd just be happy if they said they planned to, even if it was not something they are ready to release yet. From the sound of it, the developers from CL may read /., so if any of them reads this, please, let us know, ok?

Re:Dxr2 (1)

Barny (103770) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568811)

You should try the Cinemaster decoder bundled with the Pioneer DVD-A01, it has bus support, svhs, ac-3, comp vid, plus it has a vesa output so you don't tie up your system bus. But no linux drivers :(.

Re:Dxr2 (1)

logicTrAp (2864) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568812)

I wasn't really responding to the DXR2 (I have indeed never seen one), but more to the following assertion:
> What do you mean the picture is better than
> television? The DVD itself is made as a TV-video
> format. The scan lines themselves match the way
> the interlaced scan lines of the TV's CRT are drawn.
Which simply isn't true.

VFC (1)

Karrots (14012) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568813)

My PC-DVD decoder card from them uses the VGA feature connector on my video card. It works quite nicely. Why not just do it that way.

Now I just wish they would opensource the drivers for my PC-DVD card

Re:mknod doesn't want to work :( (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568821)

Yes, read the manpage. Troll.

Please moderate this down (1)

kju (327) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568822)

I don't know why this defective duplicate of my posting appears. Please moderate it down to -1 (Redundant). Thanks.

Re:Can we copy DVDs? (for backup ofcourse) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568823)

cd-ram disks are about $25, legit dvds are about $20

This is true. For now. There's still the invoice here at the office for a Philips CDD-520 1X CDR burner the size of a large VCR that we still use here. $9000. Oh and 20 blank CDRs (the 63 min kind) for $400. That's $20/CD! More than legit CDs at $16-17.

Times change. Prices on blank media drop. Prices on pre-recorded media goes up. You do the math.

Re:How about Hollywood+ ? (1)

dballanc (100332) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568824)

I'm not sure about the current Hollywood+ decoders, but I recently e-mailed Sigma Designs to express an interest in Linux drivers.... it looks like they may consider linux support atleast. // Mail Exerpt from 10/3/1999 Hi Doug, Thank you for writing us on your interest in Linux support. We have come to realize the same thing and are currently working on Linux support for our future DVD playback products. I will keep your email address and notify you when updates become available. In the mean time enjoy your REALmagic product. Regards, Arthur Bao Webmaster Sigma Designs, Inc. Visit our web site for the best products in PC-DVD Hardware Decoder www.realmagic.com or www.sigmadesigns.com // End Exerpt

Re:Who should get the Fame & Limitations of Driver (1)

ywwg (20925) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568825)

You know what? I am just happy that we have an _endorsed_ set of drivers for the dxr2. Read the page again, the instructions are there (search for dxr2, it's on the page). Some drivers are better than no drivers. With this release, and the CSS crack stuff, it should now be relatively easy to write a program that plays encrypted DVDs.

So the drivers aren't quite complete. And it's half-assed. so what? Would you prefer _nothing_? Everyone would love a full driver set, but the linux market is too small to justify development of a kick-ass GTK navigator or something. They released some drivers (ON THEIR OWN CVS!) and are acknowledging them. you can't have everything when your desktop marketshare is so low.

Re:Dxr2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568826)

Get a better cable. It's common knowledge they put cheap, bleeding cables in with all cards that require them.

Re:Who should get the Fame & Limitations of Driver (1)

Fizgig (16368) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568827)

I admit it would have been better if they did this with the help of teh authors (or helped the authors from the get-go), but it's not as bad as you make it sound. They're not really claiming credit for it. The closest thing I've seen to an official announcement by Creative was the post of the creative.linux newsgroup by an employee, in which he acknowledged who had written the code and said they hadn't. If you look at opensource.creative.com you can't find a direct link to the Dxr2 stuff anyway.

I admit they've been doing things wrong for a while, and they could have done this slightly better, but it's not like what they're doing hurts anybody.

Modules? (1)

Squeeze Truck (2971) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568828)

Forgive me if this is a retarded question. I am no wizard in the affairs of the kernel...


The first module I'm meant to install, anp82.o fails saying:


unresolved symbol vfree

unresolved symbol vmalloc

unresolved symbol printk



A search of my system reveals no modules (or anything else) by that name, and a search of the net indicates that these are all *libraries* ? What gives?


TIA

Re:Dxr2 (1)

dreamt (14798) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568829)

Anyone know where? I have a system with a DRX3 card (although the box was labeled as DRX2, the card uses the DRX3 drivers, and is labled as such)

Re:Modules? (1)

ed__ (23481) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568830)

you probably have kernel module versioning on
which mangles the name
do 'ksyms -a |grep printk' as root and see if
you get printk followed by a bunch of letters
and numbers. you can recompile your kernel
with this off, or the module with versioning
on (by adding #include
or something like that).

That's what I want to know (1)

Indomitus (578) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568831)

First off, thanks a lot to Creative. They seem to know what's what in the Linux world. But...

It seems weird to alienate people like me who went ahead and bought the more expensive dxr3 setup rather than the dxr2 based kits. I know the cards are pretty different but I hope the drivers come out for the dxr3 pretty soon as I imagine that's what most people are getting in their Creative kits now. I want to help code on a player but I need one I can actually use. :)

Re:Modules? (1)

ed__ (23481) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568832)

eeek it is #include >linux/modversions.h<
or something like that (maybe with out the s)

Re:Modules? (1)

ed__ (23481) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568833)

hahahah one more time

eeek it is #include <linux/modversions.h>
or something like that (maybe with out the s)

Re:Dxr2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568834)

You're absolutely right. The video card never does see the DVD signal.

From what I have been able to tell, it uses a form of 'blue screening' to display onto the screen. That is why you have to adjust the location of the picture and modify those settings when you change resolution.

The 'blue' color will have a certain analog signature when it comes into the decompressing card. The card will then take the DVD video it just decompressed and replace everything that matches that blue signature with the image. It then sends it to your monitor which then appears like the software just put it there.

Don't believe it? Ok... then set your window title bars to blue and drag them over the DVD image. What do you know - you can see through it. Same as when the weather man wears those tacky ties.

Re:Dxr2 (1)

dirty (13560) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568835)

you obviously have never seen a dxr2 in action. The tv output is *much* better than the onscreen output. Hell, the output to my tv tuner looks better than the signal the dxr2 puts on my monitor, except for the combing.

Re:I wonder... (2)

dirty (13560) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568836)

I hate to burst your bubble but you are wrong. The dxr2 does CSS completely in hardware so the "CSS leak" (which happened quite some time ago btw) has nothing at all to do with it. The dxr3 does CSS in software which is probally why we are only seeing dxr2 at the moment.

Also, please read the post in the future, maybe notice the link to the drivers given in the source. Creative already released the source, and I've already got it working on my system (for un-encrypted DVDs, haven't tried it with encrypted ones yet).

Re:To those who ask about playing apps (1)

dirty (13560) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568838)

First off, writing a player app is going to be a LOT easier than CSS. For the player we have the source code to the driver as a reference, and the API as it stands right now (which will change) isn't that complicated. The test app that comes with the driver is about 4k, sure it's not feature rich, but it works. I was actually considering writing a player myself as a project. Any half decent coder could do the same. Also, don't count on a decent player to come from creative until after the driver is working, if at all.

Re:mknod doesn't want to work :( (1)

dirty (13560) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568840)

yah, the command they gave was wrong. mknod /dev/dxr2 c 120 0 is the correct command.

They're watching (1)

pos (59949) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568841)

This also at least goes to show that they are watching how the community reacts to them. If people were making a lot of noise over it and nothing happens, then all you have is one way communication. It is nice to see that Creative does listen even if it (*might*) be for the wrong reasons. Perhaps they are reading this thread too. Try to show them a community that welcomes their attempts. I know I welcome them; there is still time for them to figure this out the rest of the way. I think the community has to get brave and stop shying away from companies that don't commit %100 to the OpenSource ideals.

Remember: we all know how Open Source can benefit our personal/productivity lives. The way to make Open Source work for a company is still largely experimental.

-pos

The truth is more important than the facts.

Ahh yes; (0)

inSpecter (25343) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568842)

me hugs his dxr2

Dxr2 (3)

echo (735) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568843)

The DxR2 is a decent card, but it's biggest problem is that it shoves the video through an analog VGA cable to overlay onto your video card. The picture is better than Television, but not as good as the software based DVD playback I've seen.

Does anyone know if there's a way to send the video from the Dxr2 /through/ the system bus (PCI) and write it directly into the frame buffer on the video card? If so, this would be the best of both worlds. If not currently, would this even be possible? I'd sure like to see the drivers setup to work this way for this card.

User Land (1)

dr00 (309) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568844)

How long untill we see player apps?

Does this mean regions+macrovision can be expunged (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568845)

.

alright! (aka Whoo hoo!!) (1)

Da w00t (1789) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568846)

I just downloaded the css decryption program and didn't like how the audio got out of sync with the video (on my dual PII 400).

Creative has gone up a notch in my book.

Re:Dxr2 (1)

drivers (45076) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568847)

Are you kidding? The analog pass-through to display video on the monitor looks like complete crap on the Dxr2. But the SVideo-out to the TV is absolutely perfect. It is like having a consumer electronics DVD player. What do you mean the picture is better than television? The DVD itself is made as a TV-video format. The scan lines themselves match the way the interlaced scan lines of the TV's CRT are drawn.

It is not possible to get the frame buffer of the dxr2, as far as I know (although this source may shed some light on that subject).

More information? (1)

chroma (33185) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568848)

Does anyone have a URL or a press release or ANY information on this?

Also... (3)

Booker (6173) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568849)

A couple of other interesting points:

This driver requires microcode from the Windows version of the drivers. (Just copy over a file called dvd1.ux) I guess that's a way to protect all those if-we-told-ya-we'd-have-ta-kill-ya hardware-level trade secrets?

Also, as I understand it, these were *not* developed *by* Creative, although Creative has given them their blessing. Hopefully the authors will pay us a visit and tell the story of how they came to be. :)

Update (5)

Booker (6173) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568850)

From the v4l mailing list, the code on creative's site is old. Until the authors get CVS write access, go here [geocities.com] .

If you're interested, here's the first part of the readme:

Readme for DXR2 driver v0.9b

This is still a DEVELOPMENT driver, because parts of it are still not properly tested, and a few parts are missing (see "Todo"). The player program could do with some more user friendliness :)

The driver is being actively developed by adq@tardis.ed.ac.uk, and lucien@martincurrie.com

************************************************** **************************
Also, VGA overlay is not yet supported.... output is to a TV connected to the video output of the card.
************************************************** **************************

The current IOCTL interface is TEMPORARY and WILL change... probably to be compatable with the prototype DVD interface on linuxtv.org's web pages.

The current major device number (120) is TEMPORARY, and only for development purposes. It WILL change when the driver is finished.

It has been tested with kernels 2.2.5, 2.2.9, 2.2.12

Newer version avaliable (4)

Schemer (717) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568851)

The version of the drivers on creative's web page aren't the most recent. The most recent version can be found here:

http://www.geocities.com/dxr2linux [geocities.com]

Al so take a look at the developers message on the livid mailing list:

http ://livid.on.openprojects.net/pipermail/livid-dev/1 999-November/000770.html [openprojects.net]

Change in software development! (1)

ndfa (71139) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568852)

The new trend seems to definately be that you start it off and let the open-source community do the work of improving the software!
I cant complain/ Now i can go ahead and get a SBLIVE and a DVD drive! This trend towards supporting linux is just awesome@ I remember that a few years ago i had so much trouble getting hardware that was supported!

The business side of this is also interesting, i mean you get more users since most linux ppl. will have few choices (this is sadly still true) and well *NERDS* always are the opinion leaders!
Get them to use your prodct and the regular users who always ask the *nerds* will end up coming to your product for certain!
Heck if it helps us, and it helps them... why not!

Cool (1)

NaTaS777 (14285) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568853)

This is gunna be great! I wonder how long till these drivers will be able to run DVD's fullscreen on a K6-2 300 with good framerates? Once it can do this then I will buy me a Creative Labs DVD drive....unless of course someone else finishes there drivers first :)

Re:alright! (aka Whoo hoo!!) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568854)

I have the Drx3 and under windows the audio gets out of sync quite often... really pisses me off..

Re:Ahh yes; (1)

ASaidi (105261) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568855)

Does anyone know if the DXR2 drivers work with the DXR3 decoder?

Re:Dxr2 (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568856)

It would have to be through a PCI push like the TV cards to. My bt878 TV card does that and it is very nice. No load on the CPU, etc. I noticed in browsing the site that it looks like the chip on the Dxr2 is another btxxx chip. I havn't downloaded the source yet, so I could be WAY wrong though. If this is the case, I hope it has support for the PCI push. The patch cable quite frankly sucks. My windows system handles it fine - I don't drop too much of the signal. However, in X, the screen looks like crap. Does anyone know what I need to do to make X look as good as Windows when going through this card? My guess is that it is sync rate related...

dvd video output (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568857)

The readme for the dxr2 driver mentions only playback via the tv output of the dxr2 (already working) and analog vga overlay (still to be done). I have a lcd display with digital interface so the vga overlay won't work for me. Does anyone know whether it will be possible to use the dxr2 as a hardware mpeg decoder for non-vga video cards ? I'm guessing that this is intentionally omitted.

BT865 (1)

Booker (6173) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568858)

It is a Conexa nt BT865 [conexant.com] which is a "YCrCb to NTSC/PAL Digital/Video Encoder" (not that I know for sure what that means...) but I dunno if it has the "PCI push" feature or not... specs on the web page are sketchy.

Re:To those who ask about playing apps (1)

miscellaneous (14183) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568859)

Fed up with what? Put your money out? Sure. Where can I get a player app for linux. Gimmee an address and the check is in the fucking mail.

No dice? Okay, I'll just code it myself, then. Err, no, wait. that's not very easy, is it? I mean, it took forever for a bunch of pretty damned on-the-ball-guys to crack the CSS stuff, so the IFC stuff is probably going to take a while, too. And, it's a bit over my head anyway.

Fine, okay, yah, bitching doesn't help much, though, does it?

Well, maybe, maybe not. I know for a fact that there are people at Creative and at Sigma Designs who read Slashdot. People who read slashdot and work at Creative and/or Sigma proooobbbbabbbblly read stories about things near and dear to their hearts. Like DVD decoder driver stories. They read the stories, they see people bitching. They see people bitching, maybe they start to realize there's some demand out there for this sort of thing.

So, maybe it's not such an exercise in futility after all. Mayber there's a point. Or, you know, maybe not, or something.

Re:I wonder... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568860)

>One thing: Is there any official confirmation from Creative that these drivers will be released,
>since they aren't out yet, and we only have linuxgames' word on this?

Ya know, it's one thing not to read the linked information from a Slashdot article and ask questions that are answered there....

It's completely another thing not even to read the whole SLASHDOT posting. Read past the first sentence, and see that it's in CVS, and there's even a link to it.

Re:Does this mean regions+macrovision can be expun (1)

grahams (5366) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568861)

The RemoteSelector (http://www.visualdomain.net) software lets you switch regions any number of times, turn Macrovision on/off, switch video modes, control the Dxr2 software via a large number of remote controls, and more....

I bought it about a year ago so I could control the Dxr2 software and Winamp w/ my X10 RemoteMouse. I have been very happy with the progression of the software, new features constantly. I recently threw my X10 RemoteMouse in the trash (total piece of garbage) and replaced it with an IRMan (http://www.evation.com/irman) and it works great!

Both RemoteSelector and the IRMan were worth every penny....

seanf();

Re:Who should get the Fame & Limitations of Driver (2)

kju (327) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568862)

>I am just happy that we have an _endorsed_ set
>of drivers for the dxr2.

So i am. I just emailed the first bug reports to the author.

>with this release, and the CSS crack stuff

No, you will very likely do not need this, as the CSS decryption is done in hardware here.

>should now be relatively easy to write a
>program that plays encrypted DVDs.

You haven't understood. It will not play DVDs. It will play MPEG-Streams, like them found on DVDs. But you will have problems with all the extra features and even with some "normal" DVDs. The player can only play files, but although the data is organized in files on the DVD it is not guaranteed that the movie (and only the movie) is in file a and the extras in file b ...

>And it's half-assed. so what? Would you prefer >_nothing_? Everyone would love a full driver
>set, but the linux market is too small to
>justify development of a kick-ass GTK navigator
>or something.

He, i didn't said i want such things. I just wanted to *INFORM* the readers of slashdot about the limitations of the driver. The work is fine (i congratulated the author already this morning, before this item even appeared on slashdot), but it has limitation and you should know about it. Too often crap was written about DVD under Linux on Slashdot.

>They released some drivers (ON THEIR OWN CVS!)
>and are acknowledging them.

Creative has a bad history on this. The current driver is based on a driver fragment programmed by another person who wasn't supported by Creative too. Creative didn't helped him, but they linked to his page for "Linux Support". So let me repeat this: They *refused* to help, but they referenced to his work. Sorry, but this is no good doing.

And now we have in raw the same situation again. Creative hasn't supported the programmer of the current driver. They added their copyright remarks to the drivers where in fact they have no copyright on it. They put it on their webpage and even do not state, that they didn't wrote it. And of course they tell nobody that were even to lazy to support the development of this driver.

Sorry, but this is really bad beheavior by Creative. This shouldn't be honored.

I can see no profit for us by the fact that the driver is hosted on their CVS. It makes no difference if it is on their CVS, on another CVS or just on a webpage, if they don't support the development.

Sorry, maybe i'm paranoid, but this appears to me clearly as an atempt to get the honor for everyones else work.

>you can't have everything when your desktop >marketshare is so low.

It seems to be high enough for one company to develop a DVD decoder only for linux. And even
Sigma Design will add linux drivers for their next generation of DVD decoder cards. But they will write their drivers self instead of waiting for other people to go through the hassle of reverse engineering windows drivers.

So their are many companies who recognized the importance of linux support. Currently i won't list Creative here. The GPL'd Live-Driver is a beginning (and a work which is entirely by them), but they need to change their behaviour *fast*. Their current doing is no real open-source-spirit.

But this seems to be common to companies in the last time. Instead of real linux support they are just giving some blablabla and are hoping that the linux support will just appear. It won't work this way.

Dxr2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568863)

I recieved a email about this a day or so ago. Anyway, I have a dxr2 and I must say it is extremely pimp. The tv out is really all you need anyway. I'd rather hook it up to the tv than crowd around my computer monitor. However, this doesn't mean that monitor ability should not be incorporated. As far as quality goes, it is meant for watching on a tv and not your monitor. I think the picture quality on the tv with the dxr2 is very impressive. The dxr2 board is very cheap too so definately worth getting. If you have another decoder card, see it to someone who uses windows and get the dxr2. My freind has a dxr3 and I personally saw no difference with it on the tv from my dxr2. Anyway, Good job Creative; it's great that CL decided to support the dxr2 in linux. Up until now, dvd was the only reason I had windows on my computer(and to mount it like a bitch). Now I can comfortably delete windows. Thanks a bunch. I hated wasting a parition just to watch dvd movies. now I don't have too. I hope to help out with the driver and see it progress.

Re:Who should get the Fame & Limitations of Driver (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568864)

> In short: There is no fame which Creative can take for this driver. The haven't done anything
> and they even didn't show the willingness to do something in the future. This may change, but in
> the moment it doesn't look like.

Um, Creative never made any public announcements about the dxr2 driver source. Somebody else discovered it by accident when looking at the SBLive driver source in Creative's CVS tree.

I think that the authors of the driver do know about this, though, and what Creative is doing is providing them access to a CVS server. At least that is what the driver homepage says (http://www.geocities.com/dxr2linux).

So, actually Creative is providing a service to the community here, not just "stealing credit" as you claim.

Re:Dxr2 (1)

logicTrAp (2864) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568865)

The picture going to a monitor is better than a television (given an equivelent sized screen, obviously few people have 27" monitors) because on the monitor the DVD can be displayed in "progressive scan" mode - that is, it doesn't need to do the crappy interlacing that NTSC video requires where it only draws every other line per frame.
In addition, the DVD spec is for 740x480 video...this exceeds what many televisions can produce.
So, in summary, watching on your monitor will probably give you a better picture, but I doubt it would make up for the size difference.

Re: Actually, that's the Dxr3 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568866)

Dxr3 and Hollywood+ are same card. You can even use the H+ drivers on the Dxr3 card if you want. The Dxr2 is inferior and is not the same as H+.

Re:How about Hollywood+ ? (1)

Cramer (69040) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568867)

If Sigma would stop hording the specs for the chips, the linux community would churn out a driver in no time. But they seem to be following the same bad habits of other specialty chip makers in keeping the hardware specs locked up -- if they let people at the specs, maybe more people would use the chips?

In all fairness, I've not asked them for the specs either. I've got a H+ setting here looking for a PCI slot :-)

Re:DXR3? (1)

demon (1039) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568868)

No. The chipset's completely different. The Dxr3 is actually a relabeled Sigma Hollywood+ board. I hope someone from Sigma is reading this - we want Linux drivers for the H+! Yes, I know they intend to provide Linux support with their NEXT card... but what about those of us who've ALREADY paid to play? We have to sell what we have, and buy something new, since Sigma doesn't wanna write Linux drivers for their _current_ stuff? Come on.

Re:DXR3? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568869)

The DRX3 is a totaly differnet can of worms... It is a totaly different card made by Insignia solutions (I think thats their name... they made the real magic decoder which could do video cd on a 386 -- lots of experiance with MPEG)... The DRX3 is much better than the DRX2 so it is unfortunate that we don't have drivers for this one.... last I read they were having trouble getting Insignia to allow spec release

Rage128 Decoding? (1)

Xunker (6905) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568870)

While I realise this is neither here nor there, has anyone looked into using the Motion Compensation and iCMP(sp) bits on the Rage128 chips (or any chip with motion comp) for DVD decoding under Linux?

Gee, its getting amazing to see what xanim can do, huh?

Re:Newer version avaliable (1)

Magura (24637) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568871)

As the guys don't have write access to the Creative CVS repository, the newer version (from the Geocities link) has been put in the LiViD CVS.

Isn't that nice ;^)

Gentlemen (and Ladies), start your hacking!

Re:Who should get the Fame & Limitations of Driver (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568872)

You know what? I am just happy that we have an _endorsed_ set of drivers for the dxr2. Read the page again, the instructions are there (search for dxr2, it's on the page). Some drivers are better than no drivers

That's right, but on the other hand kju was very informative, revealing the truth: Creative did not help the initial author and took all the credit. Either some cool techies at Creative convinced the management, which screwed up with stupid PR, or either Creative has Microsoft-like behavior. First refuse to give the documentation, second when a effort for a Linux DVD card, just make an "annoucement" for free that you have drivers for Linux (although the drivers were developped against your will). Sorry, but this sucks.

Initially I thought that Creative was cool. Now I think they have to do better....

We are the developers of DXR2 - README 1st (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568873)

Andrew deQuincey and myself (Lucien Murray-Pitts) are the co-developers of the DXR2 card. The card, atm, only plays MPG streams via the TV OUT. We've not tackled the overlay yet. The card supports HARDWARE CSS and Andrew is working on it atm. THIS IS A DRIVER and as such DOES NOT implement any sort of player. It takes the stream given to it and pushes it to the card. This IS akin to the Creative Labs Windows drivers - even they have a seperate app. to play the DVD/VCD. Anyone wanting to contribute $5,000 so we can buy the DVD Format Books is very welcome to send us the cash ;-) Yours, Andrew & Lucien

We are the DXR2 developers - READ ME 1st (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568874)

Andrew deQuincey and myself (Lucien Murray-Pitts) are the co-developers of the DXR2 card.

The card, atm, only plays MPG streams via the TV OUT. We've not tackled the overlay yet.

The card supports HARDWARE CSS and Andrew is working on it atm.

THIS IS A DRIVER and as such DOES NOT implement any sort of player. It takes the stream given to it and pushes it to the card.

This IS akin to the Creative Labs Windows drivers - even they have a seperate app. to play the DVD/VCD.

Anyone wanting to contribute $5,000 so we can buy the DVD Format Books is very welcome to send us the cash ;-)

Yours,

Andrew & Lucien

Re:Who should get the Fame & Limitations of Driver (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568875)

>Um, Creative never made any public announcements about the dxr2 driver source. Of course they did - in a small sentence in the linuxgames announcement that they will open-source and gpl their drivers. go and read it.

Re:Does this mean regions+macrovision can be expun (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568876)

Macrovision if disabled will give no signal if the dvd-rom is macrovision enabled, it is an encrytion on the disk that requires the hardware to undo so turn it off and no signal at all. Hint get an old stereo vcr that doesn't have AGC (auto gain controle) thats what macrovision screws with, works great for new videos that must be back to the shop ;). art can't hurt you... ...chainsaws can!

Re:Microcode (1)

platypus (18156) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568877)

The problem is there are probably two (not mutual exclusive) reasons for non-existant "source code" for the microcode.
1) There simply is no source code (like c-code), very likely because this stuff is as low-level as it can be.
2) There is some kind of source code, but the tools for creating the binary code out of the source are heaviliy proprietary, i.e. either you have to pay $$$ for them or you can't get them at all.

Once again we see the importance of the existence of free compilers at al for the idea of open source per se.

Re:To those who ask about playing apps (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568878)

The problems with writing a DVD player app is one either has to reverse engineer the vob, ifo, and bup file formats (some of this has already been done); or pay the money to get the specs the traditional way. Either way, its going to take some work to get a fully compliant DVD player app.

Re:DXR3? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568879)

Its not that thay don't want to write drivers for the current card, its that the CSS is done in software so they understandably shy away from going there. The next card will have CSS in hardware so they will have no problem releasing drivers.

In my opinion, now that the CSS box has been opened it would be nice if they would at least release enough information or source to play MPEGS and perhaps unencrypted DVDs on their card. We can do the rest now.

Does it work? (1)

Foxer (27708) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568880)

So, they have released the drivers, but is it actually a program so I can run my DVD's? If not, when is the projected date that there will be?

Hrmm. Confusion abouds within me. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568881)

Now.. what exactly does this mean in light of the recent DVD encryption cracking? Was that for software decoding only? And these are drivers for CL's decoder card, which will allow the watching of DVD movies in Linux? --Eil.

Re: Does this mean... (1)

tialaramex (61643) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568882)

I don't have a DXR2, but looking at the source it seems Macrovision and similar protection is an on-off switch in the card firmware...
I would be very surprised if there isn't a way to disable Macrovision on such old kit, but to be quite honest, who cares?
Do you really want to wreck your crystal clear DVD video by putting it on nasty VHS?

I wonder... (1)

Mark J Tilford (186) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568883)

This is being released so soon after the big CSS leak, and suspect that's no coincidence. Perhaps with that bit out, they can release enough to play DVD's without breaking NDA.

One thing: Is there any official confirmation from Creative that these drivers will be released, since they aren't out yet, and we only have linuxgames' word on this?
-----------

nope, won't work (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568884)

Different chipsets :((( The Dxr3 as far as I know is based on the same chipset as the hollywood+. Fortunately I don't have a decoder card yet, so I probly will buy the dxr2

To those who ask about playing apps (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568885)

I'm a bit fed nuff with this. listen, if you want your player apps, put your money out, or code yourself, or shut up damnit.

Re:Newer version avaliable (1)

scottm (288) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568886)

The geocities page is unavailable. Guess we'll have to wait for them to get CVS write access.

Great move for the Desktop (1)

bifrost (45323) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568887)

This is a really neat thing to find, especially since so many people are putting hard work into the desktop environment. So far Linux and NetBSD have put quite a bit of effort into this arena. NetBSD was one of the first FreeNixes to impliment USB support (that was usable) and they're working on quite a few other things. NetBSD recently ported some of the Linux DVD extensions, and we'll probably see that wrapped into the other BSD's sometime soon.

Re:Dxr2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568888)

Yes, you can... I know someone who does this with his Dxr2, just because the VGA passthrough sucks so much. He says it looks absolutely beautiful.

Later,
Shadow Knight
(not logged in, 'cuz I'm on someone elses machine)

Re:Hrmm. Confusion abouds within me. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568889)

The encription 'cracking' has nothing to do with the actuall mpeg playback. It just allows the system/user/program to access the data on the DVD disc that was hiden from view. (Atleast I believe). So this should mean,... we are VERY close to playing DVD movies in linux :)

Re:Dxr2 (2)

MikeBabcock (65886) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568890)

You're clueless (no offense :). The DXR2 is connected directly to the monitor, the video card is in turn plugged into the DXR2 card. Sure, the video from your usual VGA cis of slightly lower quality, but the DVD output is perfect (at least as far as extra cables goes).

Also, (on a completely different note), reading Creative's notes, the DXR2 driver is attempting to comply with the current open video specs. This is quite impressive (aside from them opening the interface in the first place).

Lastly of course, I own a DXR2 card and am quite interested in seeing it on Linux with overlay support (through X/DGA maybe?).

- Michael T. Babcock <homepage [linuxsupportline.com] >

Re:I wonder... (1)

rocketfairy (16253) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568891)

Yes, read the LiVid list. The drivers are broken tho.

Re:Who added the copyright notices? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568892)

The authors' own distribution of dxr2 [geocities.com] also contains the same "Copyright 1999, 2000 Creative Labs, Inc." comment. Are you suggesting that Creative Labs broke into the authors' geocity account to add copyright notices there as well??

I do agree that the website should acknowledge Andrew Veliath, Lucien Murray-Pitts & Andrew de Quincey. However, I think Creative Labs is taking steps in the right direction and they could be taught to be more community friendly. They have given on their Creative Open Source page an email address for feedback [mailto] , so use it! If you feel this strongly about it then also please contact Jon Taylor [mailto] , the Creative Labs CVS maintainer for dxr2. It may also help the dxr2 project greatly if we organize a write-in campain requesting the source code to the dxr2 windows driver or the dxr2 specs.

Re:Dxr2 (1)

ywwg (20925) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568893)

except that the actual quality of the dxr2 output to VGA sucks: it is _not_ 720x480, no matter how hard you try, and it _is_ interlaced. It looks like they take the TV signal and convert it back to VGA, instead of taking the straight data. It's a lousy way of doing it, and it looks bad.

Re:How about Hollywood+ ? (2)

smash_phase (95484) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568894)

Read the true story over here.. the only thing with holding Enigma from opening up their sources is.. CVS!
http://l ivid.on.openprojects.net/pipermail/livid-dev/1999- August/000147.html [openprojects.net]
CVS is preventing them from releasing their hardware specs and Linux sources!

Re:How about Hollywood+ ? (1)

smash_phase (95484) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568895)

Damn, to much in euforia about the Creative GPL CVS thing.. Ofcourse, where I stated CVS it should be CSS.. (duh)

Re:alright! (aka Whoo hoo!!) (1)

escher (3402) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568896)

Really? I have the Dxr3 and haven't noticed any sound sync problems. The only thing I've noticed is if it's paused for too long then playback skips twice after unpausing it.

Sure does look pretty on my 17" monitor though... :)

Re:I wonder... (1)

Dogun (7502) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568897)

I would guess that's the case with the NDA.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a 'trade secret' like CSS is broken without reverse engineering, thievery, etc, then it's no longer a 'trade secret'.
This even close to right, Patent Lawyers?

Microcode (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1568898)

This driver requires microcode from the Windows version of the drivers. (Just copy over a file called dvd1.ux) I guess that's a way to protect all those if-we-told-ya-we'd-have-ta-kill-ya hardware-level trade secrets?

That's pretty much what Matrox gave the glx project with the WARP microcode - it is just some binary data that gets pushed to the card which allows other stuff to work (for which some kind of API is usually given). As it doesn't depend on anything else, it will work on other platforms, won't break with kernel updates etc.

Some open source purists might not like it, but it means we can play with cool hardware - and to me that's the most important thing.

Re:Dxr2 (1)

MbM (7065) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568899)

No, he has a valid point, the picture from that card isn't the greatest due to their methood of overlay using a loopback cable. It's possible to do overlay from a pci busmaster slot using push to store into the video cards memory -- assuming that the creative card stores the frames in memory it might be possible to snag them that way and give a much better picture.

This is the methood done by most tv cards and also similar to the trick that allows you to use a voodoo card to render in a window, I would appreciate hearing from someone with abit more technical knowledge of the dxr cards if this is possible.
- MbM

Re:Dxr2 (1)

Kuroyi (211) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568900)

But the SVideo-out to the TV is absolutely perfect.

I guess that means if I get a dxr2 I can plug its SVideo-out into my tv card and get the video busmastered to my framebuffer.

Re:Can we copy DVDs? (for backup ofcourse) (1)

toast0 (63707) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568901)

yeah, well read the readme on the decryption stuff....
cd-ram disks are about $25, legit dvds are about $20, i suppose you could copy it to hard drive, but i dunno how economical it would be....
maybe you could fit it on a cd-r if you're lucky?

Impressions... (2)

dirty (13560) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568902)

It does work, a bit. I managed to get my system to play back dvds over my tv tuner. I don't know how sound works because my cd audio doesn't work right under linux to begin with. Video looks good, but it's extremely jumpy. Not entirely certain why. Also, I had to change the source of PAL to NTSC in test.c before I could get everything working right (but that's an issue with my tv tuner not the card I think). Has anyone else noticed jumpiness or is it just me? Also, creative doesn't have bugzilla going for Dxr2 yet :(.

Some Clarification (was: Cool) (2)

kju (327) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568903)

>I wonder how long till these drivers will be
>able to run DVD's fullscreen on a K6-2 300
>with good framerates?

As this driver is for a hardware decoder, the framerate and fullscreen doesn't have to do anything with your processor speed.

>Once it can do this then I will buy me a Creative >Labs DVD drive....

Don't do it. This driver is for the DXR2 Kit, but this is no longer for sale for some time now. They are selling now the DXR3 Kit which has totally different hardware and can therefore not be used with this driver.

I personally won't recommend buying anything from Creative again. This driver was not written neither was the development supported by Creative. The author found all internals out by reverse-engineering. All what Creative did was putting their Copyright remarks into the files and making the driver available through their servers.

YCrCb to NTSC (1)

Chouser (1115) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568904)

Well from what little I know, YCrCb is a digital sampling format for video. I take it that this chip, then, would be taking the digital YCrCb stream (after the DVD has been read and decoded) and turning it into an analog signal, for the S-Video or VGA output.

Which I guess means that you would actually want that chip's input to get pushed across the PCI bus.

--Chouser

DXR3? (1)

Bullschmidt (69408) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568905)

Does anyone know if this will work with the DXR3 decoder card? I inadvertantly received one with one of the kits (it said it included a DXR2)

any word on the dxr3... (1)

spav (36318) | more than 14 years ago | (#1568906)

or is that compatible with the dxr2 (which I doubt)

also...the monitor output on the dxr3 that I have is actually pretty good, but so is the TV output. but that doesn't help me if I'm still out a driver. :/
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