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Is Daylight Saving Shift Really Worth It?

Hemos posted more than 7 years ago | from the questioning-the-wisdom dept.

Power 652

Krishna Dagli writes "Two Ph.D. students at the University of California at Berkeley say that Daylight Saving Shift will not do any good or create any energy savings. We are already spending money for software upgrades in the name of saving energy and after reading following article I wonder has congress really studied the impact of DST shift? " I also read some back story on the concept; OTOH, I found TiVo's suggestions that I manually change everything on my Series 1 device to be somewhat...insulting.

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Already spending money? (0)

Gothmolly (148874) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314785)

Dude, DST happened 2 days ago. I hope you've already SPENT the money, like, 2 months ago, in order to accomodate this.

Re:Already spending money? (1)

Prowler50mil (990067) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314837)

You obviously don't work with embedded systems.

Re:Already spending money? (4, Insightful)

Waffle Iron (339739) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314941)

This change in DST was definitely worth it, if only for the benefit of forcing embedded systems designers to remember to not hard-code DST dates into their code. Historically, these dates have been changed about once per decade in the US alone. Assuming that they'll never change again is plain stupid. This shift will help train the current generation of developers to just not do that.

Re:Already spending money? (3, Insightful)

EggyToast (858951) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315055)

It shifts all the time. It's even slowly moved westward as cities on an eastern time zone border have pushed to get lumped into the next time zone. Why? Because the vast majority of businesses aren't flexible in their staffing hours and people can't choose to simply go in when they wake up.

My wife says that she wishes DST was all the time, as she has no problems waking up in the dark but tends to work long hours and we regularly stay up until 11 or 12.

And yeah, as a reminder to programmers it's great, but it's also great for all people to realize that time is abstract and can pretty much be whenever. I don't think I've ever heard an elderly person lament the time when we were all standard time.

Re:Already spending money? (1)

Fordiman (689627) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315243)

^_^ Very good point, and something my coffee-starved brain didn't even think of.

*slurps coffee*

Yep, still seems like a good point. I always find it weird that internet-connected devices don't check the time once in a while.

Re:Already spending money? (5, Funny)

cooley (261024) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315109)

Is DST WORTH IT? Boy, Let me tell you a story about the place I come from.

I live in Indiana (a midwestern US state). Up until last year, we'd never done DST before at all (with a few exceptions in towns whose economies were linked to cities across the border in other, DST-observing states).

Before we had DST, it was HELL. All year, it got dark at like 2:00pm. There was no Little League Baseball, no football (american or otherwise) for the kids. Most of our youth joined gangs, who roamed the incessant darkness in large, heavily fortified bad-mpg SUVs, kicking puppies and beating up old ladies just for fun. There was no Christmas and no birthdays, and if we saw the Easter bunny we ATE HIM.

Though many people had the misconception that we were "America's Breadbasket", in fact the darkness prevented us from raising any sort of sustenance crops and most of us resorted to cannibalism to survive. Most Hoosiers (that's what we're called, it means "land of eternal darkness" in a Native American tongue) eventually starved to death, which was viewed as a welcome respite from the hellish, unstoppable night. Dogs and cats, living together, you get the picture.

Then, we elected a new Governor who brought us into the light (literally). With the introduction of DST, and the seemingly random (almost whimsical, really) distribution of our Counties between two time zones, our lives were changed forever. Now, it's light outside pretty much twenty-four-fucking-seven. Our kids are all on at least six sports teams and never shoot each other anymore. They call you "sir" or "ma'am" (these words were not used before, as it was difficult to discern gender in the darkness), shine your shoes for you, and present you with ice-cold lemonade from stands with amusingly misspelled signs. We discovered oil everywhere, we grow more crops than the world could ever possibly use (which has ended hunger globally) and we're all filthy, stinking RICH. All the women have big perky boobs, all the men are RIPPED, and everybody has an IQ of at least 160.

Yes Sir, I don't know what we'd do if it weren't for good ol' DST. I have to assume that with the new DST-extending rule from our good friends in the US Congress, we'll probably just evolve to a higher state of being and shed these silly, out-dated husks to become super-intelligent beings composed of pure energy.

Re:Already spending money? (2, Interesting)

Fordiman (689627) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315305)

Wow. My coffee-starved brain read that and believed it for a whole three paragraphs. I'm shocked at my own gullibility.

That said, funny shit.

Re:Already spending money? (-1, Redundant)

grahamm (8844) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315339)

Before we had DST, it was HELL. All year, it got dark at like 2:00pm.
If without daylight saving time it was dark by 2pm, then unless it was also not light until 10am (which unless you are close to either the Arctic or Antarctic circle is very unlikely) then you are in the wrong timezone. In the correct timezone, there should be approximately equal periods of light either side of noon.

Is it worth it? (3, Insightful)

AltGrendel (175092) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314793)

One word says it all.

NO!

Another case of academia vs. the real world (4, Insightful)

ip_freely_2000 (577249) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314817)

Energy savings or not, I like the extra hour of daylight in the evening. It's extra time to play ball, take the dog for a walk or just let my kid play outside.

I'd go for double daylight savings if I could.

Maybe the PhD guys should get out of their classroom and enjoy the day.

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (5, Funny)

MindStalker (22827) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314827)

I'd go for double daylight savings if I could.

Why don't you just ask your boss if you can work 6-3 :)

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (3, Informative)

Vengeance (46019) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314873)

I already work 7:30 to 3:30. Having DST at all is really just a nuisance to me.

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (1)

dave1791 (315728) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315289)

At this time of year, you are not commuting in darkness in the morning, so how can an extra evening hour of daylight possibly be annoying?

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (1)

alisson (1040324) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315309)

Exactly. I'm really not fond of waking up while it's still dark out. It contributes to seasonal depression, which I suppose now I'll just hold on to for an extra month :|

Re:Another case of academia vs. thereal wrld - YES (4, Interesting)

Markvs (17298) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314871)

I agree. I live near NYC and it does WONDERS for my morale. The days of going to work in the dark and leaving in the dark weigh heavy on the soul/psyche. DST is a big boost, IMO.

Re:Another case of academia vs. thereal wrld - YES (4, Insightful)

hackstraw (262471) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315097)

The days of going to work in the dark and leaving in the dark weigh heavy on the soul/psyche. DST is a big boost, IMO.

But that has nothing to do with DST, that has to do with 1) what time you come and go to work and how long you stay there, and 2) the days are simply shorter in the winter because the Earth's axis. In extreme Northern and Southern climates (think North and South polar regions), its daylight and dark 24 hours a day depending on the season, and changing the clock will not change that.

I heard on NPR the other day, that the _real_ reason for DST is not to save energy, but rather to appease the retail sector. They have data that people are more willing to go out and spend money after work if its not dark. So people go motoring around in their fuel efficient SUVs, blow money, and thus energy is saved!

Personally, I don't understand why humans are so clock oriented vs sun oriented. It kills me that houses in the US are built in random directions (unless there is a nice view) instead of oriented around the Sun.

Sometimes I think humans are the silliest of all animals.

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18314887)

And you can't do those things in the morning instead, why exactly?

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (1, Insightful)

Paulrothrock (685079) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314915)

My neighbors tend to frown upon me doing yard work at five in the morning. And my kids don't seem to want to get up before dawn to go ride bikes.

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315047)

And my kids don't seem to want to get up before dawn to go ride bikes.

And you honestly believe that changing the clocks is going to change that?

Thank God I live in Europe where there is still a couple of weeks until I'll have to get up an hour earlier, and thus go to bed an hour earlier, while the sun is still shining. Meaning I won't be able to fall asleep, and thus lack one hour of sleep every day until autumn, when the clocks get set back to match the sun. No wonder I'm too tired to get any work done all summer.

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315137)

"No wonder I'm too tired to get any work done"

That's because you live in Europe...

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (2, Interesting)

garcia (6573) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314889)

I'm in 100% agreement. It might not do anything for energy consumption but it sure does make me a happier camper! I work from 9:30 to 6 and while for the last three weeks there has been some light when I'm driving home, it's going to be REALLY nice to have an entire trip with daylight. Not only do I feel better and happier during the light hours, I also feel safer because everyone else around me is driving in the daylight too.

I take a camping trip at the end of March every year and it will be SO nice to have that extra hour of daylight to get camp setup, cook dinner, and enjoy the park.

While I don't agree with nearly everything Bush has done, even though it's possibly for the wrong reason, this one is a good thing.

News Flash (3, Insightful)

BigDogCH (760290) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315131)

I see your point, and I like it when you are a happy camper, but daylight savings does NOT change how many hours of daylight we have at our disposal.

I repeat DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME DOES NOT GIVE US MORE DAYLIGHT. It does not change the planets tilt, rotation speed, or smell.

Sorry, but it just bugs me when everyone claims it gives us more daylight. DST should be abolished altogether. Any companies that want to change their business hours for the seasons should do so on their own. Factories in the Midwest, like mine, start their employees 2-3 hours earlier in the summer so they can avoid the heat of the day. DST just means now we have to start our employees 3-4 hours earlier to avoid the heat.

DST is my new mortal enemy.

Re:News Flash (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315315)

How is being an idiotic pedant (who is wrong by the way) insightful?

REREAD parent and try to figure out why you're a moron.

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (1)

bkr1_2k (237627) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315037)

Or maybe they should study a period of time (and location) that wasn't offset with the express purpose of accomodating the Olympics, which would automatically require higher energy consumption than "normal" for a given region. Seems to me their study might have overlooked a couple factors, if it was as simple as the linked article suggests.

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (1)

The-Bus (138060) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315041)

If I had it my way, I'd have double daylight savings time and just make it permanent. So what if the sun doesn't come out until 10AM in the winter?

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (5, Insightful)

schon (31600) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315225)

Energy savings or not, I like the extra hour of daylight in the evening. It's extra time to play ball, take the dog for a walk or just let my kid play outside.
So why don't we all just keep the clocks an hour ahead, and get that "extra hour" all year round?

Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (1)

Fordiman (689627) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315337)

I do like DST time better than standard, if noly that it makes 9 to 5 really 10 to 6.

But honestly, I'd rather just work 10 to 6 all year round, and screw the DST.

Yes! No! Maybe! (4, Funny)

kaleco (801384) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314839)

Quick, someone add the tags please.

Itsatrap! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315237)

While you're at it, why not this one too?

I Love It!!! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18314845)

The rest of the world is: forcing adoption of energy saving lightbulbs, committing to Kyoto, taking steps to shift to nuclear and clean energy, but George Bush's idea of helping the environment is extending daylight savings time!!

GO GEORGE GO!!

So you're trying to tell me... (4, Funny)

hansamurai (907719) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314853)

... that two college students think they're smarter than a bunch of politicians?

Re:So you're trying to tell me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315007)

umm... duh.
Let's review some politicians-
Joe Lieberman- Claims all the problems with violence are related to games
George Bush- Started a war he can no longer justify NOR can he complete a speech without sounding like my 7 year old little brother

yeah, there's more, but politicians don't have a good running track. PhD requires smart. Politician requires popular.

Re:So you're trying to tell me... (1)

mpe (36238) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315059)

... that two college students think they're smarter than a bunch of politicians?

Or rather than a bunch of politicians think they are smarter than two PhD students.

Re:So you're trying to tell me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315147)

...that a bunch of Slashdotters think they're more important than a couple of Ph.D. students? ;)

Anyone with a job IS more important! (1)

FatSean (18753) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315355)

I mean, the Ph.D. students haven't exactly produced any meaningful thing, have they? They have pointed out a flaw in DST that has been observed since...well...since I can remember!

Re:So you're trying to tell me... (1, Insightful)

solevita (967690) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315149)

Questioning politicians, it's your duty. The day that you assume that you're less intelligent that politicians is the day that you wave all your rights, human or otherwise.

Politicians are only people, you're a person too. Question what they do or you're simply a tool. Don't forget either that they work for you.

So yeah, mod parent down ;-)

Re:So you're trying to tell me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315335)

Snails are smarter than politicians. What's your point?

Do you even have to ask? (1)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314855)

Clearly they didn't even know there was going to be a technical problem...

I'd say that odds are they didn't even think that research was necessary.

Value may not be measurable in economics (2, Interesting)

Zontar_Thing_From_Ve (949321) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314861)

So what if an early DST doesn't really have huge enery savings? Of course, this is a research paper by 2 students at the People's Republic of Berkeley, who no doubt must be the most completely objective sources on the planet. (sarcasm off) There are benefits such as being able to actually go outside and get some exercise after work or do yard work because it's not too dark, being able to drive home after work in daylight and so on. I love DST and I wish the government had moved it up years ago, but I'm glad it's already started.

It is measurable... (1)

denis-The-menace (471988) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315233)

...if you sell BBQs and golf games.
I was listening to a radio Show and the DST was the topic.
It turns out that the makers of BBQs and the Golf lobby told Congress that DST was worth hundreds of millions of dollars for them and to continue the DST practice.

Re:Value may not be measurable in economics (1, Troll)

mobby_6kl (668092) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315253)

DST doesn't give you any more daylight than there is. Why don't you just exercise in the morning and leave everyone else out of this?

Re:Value may not be measurable in economics (3, Insightful)

cduffy (652) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315291)

Why don't they just pass a law stating that for purposes of the government, standard work hours are shifted +1/-1hr within a given time period, and encourage private industry to do the same? That way you get your ability to drive home in daylight, and I don't have anyone screwing with my clocks.

(For that matter, if it's that big of a difference, why doesn't private industry decide to change business hours independently? Personally, I don't see it as a big enough change to be worth bothering -- but then, I exercise in the mornings rather than afternoons, and have an employer who allows me to shift my hours at will).

Who cares about "energy savings"? (2, Insightful)

kria (126207) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314863)

I want my daylight savings time for one reason - so I'm not woken at an ungodly (Ungodly? unGodly?) hour when the sun rises at its earliest, and I know I would be - if the sun didn't, my husband, who is very reactive to sunlight, would be awake and that would do it.

I live in Indiana, and I'm thrilled that we're finally doing DST.

Re:Who cares about "energy savings"? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18314981)

finally article to which chick can respond and none replies to her

Issues so far (3, Informative)

OriginalArlen (726444) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314879)

According to the SANS Incident Handler's Diary [sans.org] , various issues have been reported in Cisco VOIP phones, Blackberrys, Veritas aka Symantec BackupExec, and Watchguard firewalls.

Re:Issues so far (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18314973)

Watchguard released a patch for their firewalls weeks ago

Re:Issues so far (1)

techpawn (969834) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315333)

Ummm actually according to that there aren't any blackberry issues... I know of one beyond the patches which requires you to update the cdo.dll but that's it really.

Congress? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18314893)

I wonder has congress really studied the impact of DST shift?

It is already well-established that the US Congress doesn't bother to read the laws before they pass them.

If they don't even read the law, I doubt they would do any studies.

NTPD? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18314897)

Does ntpd just get the time from the server and set your system clock to that, or does it run what gets returned through some rules based on DST? It must offset the time based on your zone, but does it take into account the date as well?

Re:NTPD? (1)

MECC (8478) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315017)

I believe in linux, it adjusts your system's clock. Your operating system consults your timezone file before reporting/returning the time to you. I think the timezone files contain the DST info.

All this work so kids can trick-or-treat longer.

The funnest part of this whole thing is that in a couple of years, if things don't work out, DST goes back to the old dates.

Re:NTPD? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315069)

I believe in linux, it adjusts your system's clock.

Absolutely not. Linux, like most unixes, puts the system clock on UTC. Only when time is displayed is it converted to localtime.

Your operating system consults your timezone file before reporting/returning the time to you. I think the timezone files contain the DST info.

Correct.

Move to Saskatchewan, Canada (2, Interesting)

thomasdz (178114) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314901)

You know, except for all the TV shows on cable shifting by an hour, I really didn't miss having to run around the house changing the clocks twice a year when I lived in Saskatchewan. But, now that I'm outside of Saskatchewan, I'm also bombarded by those idiot^H^H^H^H^Hpeople who say "You lose an hour of sleep tonight"...well...no I don't ...and I also won't "be well rested tonight because I'll get an extra hour of sleep" ...guess what: I don't use an alarm clock. I get up when I get up. I don't gain or lose any sleep and all I ever get is annoyed when I have to run around changing clocks.
Being in Canada, the time shift means that I use more electricity because when I get up...It's now darker again, so I gotta turn the lights on.

Re:Move to Saskatchewan, Canada (1)

Rob T Firefly (844560) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315091)

I can tell you with absolute certainty that I definitely woke up Sunday morning feeling like I needed another hour of sleep... but to be honest, I always feel like I need another hour of sleep. If I ever lapse into one of those ten-year comas, someone please make sure I have the futuristic equivalent of a "just ten more minutes" snooze button available.

Re:Move to Saskatchewan, Canada (1)

waldonova (769039) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315209)

It's working for me in southern Ontario. I'm an early riser and I there were no extra lights turned on this morning as compared to Friday morning. The office light, the bathroom light & fan, as well as the bedroom lights do not see any less use in summer mornings than they do in the winter. The only light affected by all of this is the kitchen light. For the evening routine, there will be more lights that are delayed by an hour than the kitchen light that was extended by an hour. Think of exterior lights too. They are timed to come on in the evening but don't come on in the morning. So far, so good.

Re:Move to Saskatchewan, Canada (1)

geoffspear (692508) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315313)

Is unemployment so rampant in Saskatchewan that if I move there I won't have to get up at a set time anymore to go to work?

All I know is... (1)

infinite9 (319274) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314905)

I want to strangle both the inventor or daylight savings time and the genius who decided to move this dates this year. Thanks to these jackasses, I get up in the dark now. And my favorite clock which autosets its time when the power goes out is now broken. I had to lie to it and change my timezone to get the time to display correctly. This is completely retarded. I didn't see a single correct clock in the way in to work today.

Re:All I know is... (1)

Sirch (82595) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315083)

I didn't see a single correct clock in the way in to work today.
How do you know? Maybe your watch is broken?

It's dependent on where you live (1)

Alicat1194 (970019) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314907)

I live in Western Australia, and we're currently running a trial of Daylight savings. It's all well and good for those of us in the lower half of the state, where there is an appreciable difference in the sunset/sunrise times Summer vs Winter, but at the top of the state nearer the equator, it must be annoying at the very least.

(Not to mention it's hot enough that the airconditioning will be on wherever I am, daylight savings or no, so I doubt there's much of an energy saving there either)

Re:It's dependent on where you live (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315197)

Exactly. Congratulations on being (so far) the only reply that mentions distance from the equator.

Your distance from the equator and the season are the two critical factors. If you live far from the equator and it is closer to the summer solstice than the winter solstice then you have 'daylight to spend'. Where should we spend it? In the evening, or in the morning? Most people don't have any interest in getting up earlier than 6:00 AM, so shifting those wasted hours of sunlight to the evening makes sense. It also makes it easier to sleep in to a decent hour.

Trying to apply a study in Victoria, Australia to North America seems silly (disclaimer: the ABC news story didn't list full details of the study). Melbourne, Victoria is only 37.7 degrees from the equator, and most of the state is even closer. So, they don't get much change in day length, compared to the probably 60% of the continental US that is farther from the equator than Melbourne. Don't get me started on Alaska.

The problem with the DST change is that it now starts when we are still in a sunshine deficit. In the Southern states the days are still about half sunshine, as always, and in the Northern states the days are still noticeably less than half sunshine, so we're spending our excess sunshine hours when we don't have them.

I like DST because I'd rather have daylight in the evening than in the morning--I rarely get up before 7:00 AM. And, I like having DST earlier because I like to bike to and from work and since I ride in around 9:00 AM and return around 5:00 AM it works better for me if the sun is at its peak halfway between--around 1:00 AM--which is what DST does.

However, it seems unlikely that there would be much if any power savings for the next three weeks of DST where we are robbing Peter to pay Paul, and Peter doesn't have much to start with.

Anyway, this is a long-winded way of saying that discussing the usefulness of DST without specifying a distance from the equator is pointless. There's a reason that tropical countries (including New Mexico :-) don't generally use DST.

Short sighted at best (1, Insightful)

mobiux (118006) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314917)

The obvious answer is that congress needed an easy way to put something down on paper that they care about energy policy.
Was there any in depth hearings on it, any experts called in to testify on the change, any representatives from industries affected by this change, actual debate on the subject? As far as i can remember, it was no on all accounts.

Congress passes a law without knowing the full consequences, simply so they would have something to show in the 06 elections.

Anyone who voted on this is/was a god damn moron.

Re:Short sighted at best (1)

Livius (318358) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315319)

This was a measure dreamed up by people who:

1) wanted to wanted to say the words "saving energy" without, you know, doing anything about energy policy, and
2) have no concept of getting up early in the morning to do an honest day's work.

I'm not sure if the change is good or bad. It's possible they randomly stumbled on something reasonable.

I SPENT MY ENTIRE WEEKEND AT WORK! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18314919)

I spent my entire weekend at the office instead of spending QUALITY time with my lovely WIFE and my lovely KIDS! I was supposed to take my family to a picnic in countryside and spend unforgettable weekend with my WIFE. Well - I spent my weekend patching Java timezone settings. Life is fucking great when you're in IT business.

But on the plus side... (1)

geoffrobinson (109879) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315125)

the clock skipped ahead an hour. So the whole weekend at work was one hour less.

Hemos (0, Offtopic)

edittard (805475) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314931)

"say that [the] Daylight Saving Shift will not do any good" ... "and after reading [the] following article"

Mr Hemos sir, next time please to correcting submitter grammer.

maybe (2)

mastershake_phd (1050150) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314959)

If you like the extra hour of light at night its worth it. It would be nice if people adjusted themselves without being forced to but that just isnt going to happen.

Re:maybe (1)

waif69 (322360) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315005)

It doesn't matter if people adjust their personal schedules, what drives most peoples schedules are the hours they have to be at work. Only when the gov't dictates a change will their be a change in schedules. I generally hate big gov't getting involved with the normal lives of the people, but sometimes, just sometimes, something good happens.

More driving? (5, Interesting)

Lurker2288 (995635) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314961)

According to CNN.com, a gas price bump is expected now because people are expected to drive more with the expanded daylight hours.

So wait, Washington passed a law to change DST early...the early DST change is now being used to justify gas price increases? Coincidence? Happenstance?

Sorry all, maybe my TFH is a little tight this morning.

Re:More driving? (2, Funny)

MyNameIsEarl (917015) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314999)

A fart is a good enough excuse for big oil to justify an increase in gasoline prices.

Re:More driving? (1)

bkr1_2k (237627) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315143)

That happens every year...no big surprise and certainly not evidence of any kind of conspiracy. Welcome to "summer". People hybernate all winter and when the weather starts to turn pretty again, they come out and do things. That means they drive more, gas demand goes up, price goes up. Simple rule.

Re:More driving? (1)

falcon5768 (629591) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315285)

no the conspiracy comes in the fact that we have more than ample supply to meet demand and thus the prices shouldnt go up, but do, this year expecting to be worse than even after Katrina. And that a good 60-70% of our government (Republican and Democrat) has their fortunes tied to that price going up.

THATS where you sit back and say "hmmm somethings not right here."

The other side (3, Interesting)

Spackler (223562) | more than 7 years ago | (#18314967)

Ok, I am going to argue the other side of this.

From TFA:
But Ryan Kellogg and Hendrik Wolff, who are working on their doctorates in economics, say the reduced need for light in the evening will likely be negated by the increased need in the early morning.

That sounds logical, but it is not (IMHO). In the morning when I get up for work, I turn on maybe two lights (bedroom and bathroom). I am focused on getting ready for work, so there is not any entertainment (TV), stereo, really nothing except an electric razor. I brew my tea, and I am off to work (I don't think my headlights count as extra energy).

When I come home from work, well, all the lights in the kitchen, the halls, very soon the livingroom, the plasma TV, the surround sound, the computer. Lot's more things. Now, most of these don't change from summer to winter, except the lights. If it is light out, I do not turn them on (shocking). That is a savings of energy by not turning on the lights.

I really don't think this article took into account the different energy needs from the morning to night times. It is short sighted.

Spack

(ok, the gate is open for you to disagree, but really think about the way you do things different in the mornings and how most people do it different first)

Re:The other side (2, Interesting)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315151)

You should have left out the mess about the tv, etc. It isn't affected and has nothing to do with this. Mentioning it only clouds the issue.

The only difference is the livingroom, kitchen, and hall lights. So assuming you have 3 bulbs in the kitchen, 3 in the living room, and 1 in the hall, that's 7 bulbs that are on an extra hour a day.

It sounds like you're already at least a little energy-conscious, too, as most people will turn on a light if it's not quite bright enough in the room. You just leave them off, apparently. (I'm talking about the hall and kitchen, here.) So for most people, that only leaves the living room. And quite a few people watch the morning news before work, to get a handle on weather and traffic, especially. There's the living room lights on, too.

So for most people, as you encouraged me to think about, there is no difference. For the energy-conscious bunch, there's very little difference. And for me personally, there's no difference. DST or not, I get up before the sun has even thought about peeking its lazy ass over the horizon, and I'm home LONG before it decides to take a rest.

In the end, I think more energy savings come not from the DST itself, but from getting people to talk about saving energy.

Two last thoughts: Lightbulbs are getting more efficient every year. The saved energy from this scheme reduces every year. I wonder where the line is that we spend more energy talking and setting clocks than we save from the change?

Last thought: I used to hear this was 'for the children' so they wouldn't stand at the bus-stop in the dark. Why not just let them go to school an hour later, instead, if they're really worried about that? Most children already get home before their working parents, so it's not that.

Re:The other side (1)

bkr1_2k (237627) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315175)

Not to mention, a large portion of the work force simply doesn't get up early enough to need the lights any more now (or in a week or two at most) than they did last week. If most people go to work at 9am they don't get up until 7 at the earliest (usually) so they have about 15 minutes without light. Furthermore, as you stated, most people simply don't use as much energy in the morning as they do at the end of their work day.

Re:The other side (1)

teslar (706653) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315187)

Yeah, well, also from TFA:

Kellogg and Wolff came to their conclusion by studying Australia, where several states extended daylight-saving time (DST for short) by two months in 2000 to accommodate the Olympic Games in Sydney that year.
[...]
In fact, the two said, shifting Australians' clocks led to a tiny increase in power use.

So they're not exactly making it up and while you may think it's not logical, it does appear to be true. Whether the results apply to the US in the same way remains to be seen, of course.

I'm a "night person" (3, Insightful)

Migraineman (632203) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315021)

Clearly this legislations was thought up by a "morning person." You douchebag "morning people" and your silly daylight requirement may suck my left nut.

Re:I'm a "night person" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315235)

AMEN to that brutha! Cheery.. morning.. people.. and their DST.
Why not just shift the damn thing over by half an hour (in the middle) and be done with it for good.

Re:I'm a "night person" (3, Insightful)

geoffspear (692508) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315357)

Umm, wouldn't a "morning person" prefer to have light in the morning instead of later into the night? Clearly you're an idiot.

Do you manually record everything? (1)

Refried Beans (70083) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315033)

Your TiVo Series 1 will work just fine as long as you're using the guide data to record everything. Sure, the time it displays will be wrong for three weeks, but it will record everything just like it did. All of the guide data is in GMT so your season passes don't need to be updated. Did you even RTFA?

Not really new. (1)

will_die (586523) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315035)

When this bill was originally being talked about, various people said the study it was based on, done back in the 1970s was worthless. However they quickly got labeled as working for "big oil". Others mentioned that even using newer numbers the saving would not be great were also labeled as working for "big oil".
However all you "man is the prime source of global warming" can take heart, I have already seen a few articles where they are ignoring the claim that the change will save energy to focus on saying that it will save lives on the road, it is better for outdoor recreation, and it just makes people feel good because of the extra hour of sunlight at the end of the day.

It's a conspiracy! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315067)

The conspiracy theorist within me says that some portions of the IT industry wanted a mini-Y2K to make their services more critically required for a bit -- both so they could bill more for a bit and to remind everyone how necessary they are. In short, that some portions of the IT industry urged Congress to pass this stupid bit of legislation.

The same conspiracy theorist within me says that the stupid bits of Sarbannes Oxley legislating specific and no-value-add security policies were instigated by consulting firms in IT who knew they could churn out milliions in SOX pre-audits and SOX related services (by saying that everything needs changing in the pre-audits).

In the case of daylight savings time, I suppose that the old adage about not explaining with malice what could easier/better be explained by stupidity applies. I'm not so sure about SOX, though.

The letter from TiVo (2, Informative)

AtariDatacenter (31657) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315113)

Here is what TiVo sent me. The Thursday (Mar 8) before DST. Thanks for the warning!

Dear TiVo Subscriber,

As Daylight Saving Time commences three weeks early this year, we
thought we'd beat the clock to let you know how this unusual schedule might
affect recordings on your TiVo(r) Series1 DVR. (Hint: Chances are
slim.)

While the TiVo service will continue to automatically record your
Season Pass(tm) programs and WishList(r) searches at the correct airtimes
without incident, there are two things to note:

1) For the three weeks that follow the new Daylight Saving Time start
date (March 11), your Series1 TiVo(r) DVR may display the incorrect
time.

Again, to be clear, this is only a cosmetic issue and should not affect
your Season Pass(tm) and WishList(r) recordings.

2) If you have any MANUAL recordings scheduled between March 11 and
April 1, you
will need to adjust those recordings as appropriate. Here's how:

- From TiVo Central, select Pick Programs to Record, then To Do List.

- Locate your Manual Recording (by channel, date, time) and adjust
accordingly. For example, if you have a daily manual recording from 8:00 am

- 9:00 am, you will need to change it to 7:00 am - 8:00 am on March 11.
(Quick Tip: If there are no recordings in this list preceded by the
word "Manual", there's nothing further you need to do.)

- On April 1 be sure to change it back to its actual time, i.e., 8:00
am - 9:00 am.

For more details, please visit www.tivo.com/dst

Thanks for being a TiVo subscriber and here's to a beautiful spring!

- Your friends at TiVo

TiVo, Season Pass(TM), and WishList® are trademarks or registered
trademarks of TiVo Inc's subsidiaries. ©2007 TiVo Inc. 2160 Gold Street Alviso,
CA 95002-2160. All rights reserved. Please feel free to review our
Privacy Policy.

benefits of DST shift (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315155)

1. Light outside when we leave work

2. And no, most of us posting here can't/won't get up at 6 AM - it's a guy thing

3. We don't have to listen to clueless politicians talking about moving DST as "low hanging fruit" in reducing energy consumption

4. We found a bunch of old code that was fragile and needed to be replaced

5. We all got a little drill on pumping out patches - "that which doesn't kill us" etc

6. Most of those clocks I have at home were drifting anyway. Now they have correct time.

7. Long weekend days in March.

8. DST article on Slashdot gives everyone something they can post about.

9. If Congress wasn't working on this, they'd be fiddling with the tax code. Which means Mr. Big and his corporation pays less, you and I pay more.

Die Time Zones (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315165)

The whole idea of time being different around the world is stupid. The entire reason for DST is so "save energy"? What energy? So we now get up an hour earlier. Why can't we get up an hour earlier without an act of Congress? Are we so pathetic and weak that it takes a politician to motivate us? Seriously we are becoming subservient to others' ideas (by definition) when we cannot act of our own volition.

So here's what I propose. First, daylight savings time is stupid. Either turn it on or turn it off and don't change it back.

Second, to get to the heart of the problem, get rid of time zones. How often do we hassle with the dumb things? When flying on planes does it really take ten minutes to go from New York to CA and six hours to go back? No, it's all time zones. Should we need to figure in that difference?

When getting up in the morning why not just wake up when you're ready or when your daily requirements force you to get up? We have this insane notion that work hours can only be from 8 to 5 or 9 to 6 by the numbers. The fact of the matter is that you're going to go work (generalization alert) an eight-hour day no matter when that day starts (figuring in lunch, 9 hours). It so happens that I work from 1500-0000 GMT and that's fine with me. Why not tell everybody that? Customers call me from all over the world and I get to tell them, "I will be in the office from 8-5 MST which is 10-7 EST which is 3-12 GMT." Why do all that work? If the world unites on real time (GMT) we can take out these conversions. Half of the greatness of PHP's date() function may be eliminated (since it makes time conversions so nice) but the requirement for all of us to do these conversions will be eliminated. Business can post their hours based on whatever they want and those hours can be understood worldwide without going to timeanddate.com to figure out what it really means. The world is moving to 24x7 anyway thanks to our beloved Internet so time zones mean less each day anyway.

Also, the sooner we (USA) get to metric the better. This whole other system is crap and I envy our metric-using overlords.

Not only DST is annoying, but Timezones in general (0, Offtopic)

eldaria (1051866) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315167)

Just imagine how much easier it would be if the world just switched to UTC. No more trying to calculate what time it is where the other person is.

Insulting? (1)

cabinetsoft (923481) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315171)

OTOH, I found TiVo's suggestions that I manually change everything on my Series 1 device to be somewhat...insulting.

Why on earth would you think that every piece of equipment must be DST / timezone aware? Time zone aware microwaves, time zone aware $3 radio clocks, time zone aware VCR, time zone aware wall clock? Yeah, sure... that would be a nightmare... For those used with DST it's no problem manually changing the date on each household equipment... And I suppose it will be more than a nightmare to explain to your 60yr old pops: "No, you shouldn't change the time on the fridge clock. You'll need to PATCH it. Yeah, is simple... just overwrite the PROM or whatever... ah and NO, you don't have to change time on the VCR too because it's DST aware... What? You left it on the default Japan time zone? No, you'll need to change that...". And so on

Wouldn't that create more and more issues? Is a $100,000 mechanical watch timezone/DST aware?

Re:Insulting? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315331)

Why on earth would you think that every piece of equipment must be DST / timezone aware?

Well, in the case of a Tivo, you might have programmed it to record your favorite show at 7 pm.

Due to the DST change, unless your Tivo adjusts according, your show is no longer at 7 pm, so you don't get to watch your show.

Think a little.

Depends on your lattitude (3, Interesting)

ronys (166557) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315177)

Obviously, the closer you are to the equator, the smaller the difference between daylight hours in summer and winter.

However, for those North/South of about 30 degrees, the difference is significant. Not to mention the (measured, reference unavailable) reduction in traffic accidents due to fewer people driving home from work in the dark.

It certainly makes programs more complicated (1)

llirik (1074623) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315189)

Anyone who had programed complex systems would tell you that it overcomplicates a lot of logic.

Just one example -- I used to work for energy trading company (think gas, power, oil, etc).

We had a datastructure for storing actual gas flow hour by hour. Guess what, it is an array with 24 entries, except for DST change days, when it can be 23 or 25. Thanks god we didn't operate in those backward off by hour and a half timezones.

Not mentioned (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315215)

The article did not mention if the the PhDs took into account the extra use of energy related to the Olympics which could have accounted for the increase in energy use.

I've got an idea (3, Funny)

voice_of_all_reason (926702) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315221)

Why don't we just set the clocks back 9 hours? Since Daylight Savings Time adds an hour of light, doing this will make it daytime all twenty-four hours. It's a win-win scenario!

Energy has nothing to do with it (3, Insightful)

davmoo (63521) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315241)

Anyone who thinks the decision to keep the US on DST, or increase the time it is on DST, has anything at all to do with energy savings is woefully naive at best. The US increased DST because of commercial interests involved in outdoor entertainment and business. And those commercial interests bought congresscritters to do their bidding.

Any other government explanation is a lie. No exceptions.

Moving to Arizona (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18315249)

I get up in the dark and go to bed in the dark. Daylight Saving Time is bullshit.

Noon isn't the middle of the day anymore (1)

sjbe (173966) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315257)

Noon is supposedly the time when the sun is at its highest point, meaning half the daylight is gone. Schedules vary but for most of us noon is not actually the middle of the day. Personally I wake around 7 most days and go to bed around 10-11. I don't dictate this, the companies I work with/for determine the hours of operation. For those keeping score that is ~5 hours before noon and ~10 after noon. (and no getting up earlier isn't really an option for me) It's just a lot nicer to have as many daylight hours as possible in the evening for exercise, errands, socializing, whatever... Cost savings are nice but I really am more interested in the quality of life. YMMV but I'm quite sure I'm not the only one judging by other comments. Daylight Saving Time just recognizes the reality that our schedules differ from the arbitrarily chosen noon time.

What the elected retards should have done... (1)

LaRoach (968977) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315275)

Figure out what the total cost of their BS idea would be. Then buy that many compact flourescent bulbs and hand them out for free to every household. I fucking HATE DST!

In a word: No (2, Insightful)

SwashbucklingCowboy (727629) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315295)

DST isn't about saving energy because it doesn't. It's about adding an hour of sunlight at the end of the day so that people can go out and shop - thus using more energy, not less.

There's a reason that American Chamber of Commerce has strongly support DST since it's inception.

I want my time back (0, Flamebait)

billcopc (196330) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315299)

DST is kind of dumb, yes, but what's even dumber is how twice a year around the clock shift date, a bunch of cocky little dorks write the same uncreative garbage about the evils of DST. Next year they might throw in a twist and say "DST causes homosexuality" or some southern retarded puke.

In the world, there are three driving forces: money, control, and religion. DST is driven by money. By having "more" sunny time, we have more spending time. Drive around, or drop by a terrace for a drink... things people are much less likely to do after darkness falls.

I personally wish we could leave our clocks alone and just have people get up one hour earlier if they need to. It's easier to have a billion people show up to work one hour early (with a few tardy folks), than to spend ages reprogramming every single electronic device on the planet to hopefully copy with this artificial rift in time. Linux does a semi-decent job by trying to keep everything in UTC, then cooking the timezone for display, but it's still a pain in the ass.

It's an ineffective, stupid move. (3, Insightful)

Peter Cooper (660482) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315321)

In a 24 hour society, daylight savings is an absolute farce outside of the May->August period when it's possible to have 16 hours of daylight. If there's, say, 14 hours of daylight, then you have 2 hours of darkness in most peoples' days wherever you shift the timezones, and that's only the optimum outcome because millions wake up before daylight and millions stay up after it.

If the government was really interested in "saving energy", it'd clamp down on emissions and fuel efficiency, and promote more effective techniques. Banning incandescent lighting and enforcing energy-saving bulb usage would strip several percent off of electricity demands year round and would cause a whole lot less annoyance than timezone changes. The EU and Australia have already figured this one out. [scotsman.com]

Updating Java for DST can break something else too (2, Interesting)

twivel (89696) | more than 7 years ago | (#18315345)

Ack! It's not worth it? All that extra time spent working to update our programs through the night and for no benefit?? And to make matters worse, those of us who spent time updating Java for DST might have been installing broken timezone data. See http://www.javasanity.org/article/7/thanks-for-the -time-sun [javasanity.org]
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