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MS Trying To Spur Vista Sales With Discounts

kdawson posted about 7 years ago | from the wee-mite-desperate dept.

Windows 329

Ang writes "Is Microsoft having worries about selling Vista already? Ars reports that Microsoft has announced yet another 'discount program' for Vista, but these new discounts work out to only about 10% off list price — not much when you notice that retailers already sell Vista below list. To make matters worse, the discount program would still end up costing you $100 more than the older 'family' discount built around Vista Ultimate in some situations. Ars spends seven paragraphs explaining this convoluted offer. Is all of this complexity supposed to help sell Vista?" If you must buy Vista, it might be advisable to sit on your wallet for a while. The discounts are bound to get sweeter.

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ATTN: SWITCHEURS! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18483577)

Still looking for the "maximize" button when your Mac has "zoom" instead? If you can't deal with multiple windows at once, go back to your PC. Macs weren't designed for one-track minds.

ATTN: COWARDS! (0, Offtopic)

aussie_a (778472) | about 7 years ago | (#18483699)

Still looking for a the off button on your life when life instead should be lived to the max? If you can't deal with the joys of life, go back to your mother's basement. Life isn't designed for pale, spineless people.

Re:ATTN: SWITCHEURS! (-1, Offtopic)

WilliamSChips (793741) | about 7 years ago | (#18484269)

Macs don't have a Maximize button? If they don't let me use the full screen for what I want to use it for, I'm never going to go to Mac.

Re:ATTN: SWITCHEURS! (0, Offtopic)

Stormwatch (703920) | about 7 years ago | (#18484437)

Macs don't have a Maximize button? If they don't let me use the full screen for what I want to use it for, I'm never going to go to Mac.
Actually it makes more sense for a window not go full-screen: the Mac interface has this emphasis on drag-and-drop. For example, select some text and drag it to the desktop. What happens? I'm not sure about Windows, but on a Mac, this creates a text clipping file.


Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484459)

Consider also that most websites don't use the a full screen. It occurred to me when I was using windows (I now use Ubuntu) that it was an awful waste to maximaze all the websites.. only to have 1/4 page of empty space on either side. Although, I find that the mac system has the infuriating tendency to make rear-most pages inaccessabl,e if you aren't careful about how you arrange your windows. Safari fails it- No tabbed browsing? wtf.


Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484539)

Safari has tabbed browsing. You just have to enable it in preferences.

Re:ATTN: SWITCHEURS! (-1, Offtopic)

gripen40k (957933) | about 7 years ago | (#18484681)

I don't think you are getting the point, if I want to view something fullscreen, I better damn well be able to. And how does viewing say, a picture fullscreen, have to do with drag and drop?

Costco... (4, Interesting)

podperson (592944) | about 7 years ago | (#18483587)

Last couple of times I've visited Costco there have been huge and nearly full Vista racks. It's pretty early in a product cycle for Vista to be in Costco... let alone in Costco and not moving.

Good deals for retailers (4, Insightful)

EmbeddedJanitor (597831) | about 7 years ago | (#18483807)

Unlike "real goods" which cost "real money" to make, a Vista product (ie. DVD + packaging) costs virtually nothing. No doubt MS is running sweet deals for retailers to get as many sales as possible.

Apart from generating revenue, MS has to prove to share holders that the $5bn that was spent on Vista development was worth doing and they can only do that by showing an increase in sales vs XP. There must be a lot of shareholders wondering whether it would have been better to just put the money in the bank and ride XP for longer. After all, anyone not buying Vista would still buy XP, so what motivates spending $5bn?

ATTN: SWITCHEURS! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18483943)

Still looking for the "maximize" button when your Mac has "zoom" instead? If you can't deal with multiple windows at once, go back to your PC. Macs weren't designed for one-track minds.


Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484113)

funny how they only display one menu at a time...

MACs are for the simple minded (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484261)

And they cost more. So they are for idiots.

Re:Costco... (2, Insightful)

Foofoobar (318279) | about 7 years ago | (#18484205)

I laughed at those racks because whoever attempts to purchase and install those, unless they just bought a brand new machine (in which case it would come with Vista installed by default anyway), they are going to most likely have hardware incompatibilities, lack of driver support, etc and thus be unhappy and return the product. Too many returns will eventually cause retailers to stop carrying them on the shelves.

But this isn't too much of a concern for Microsoft since they only accounted for 10% of XP's sales. However since Vista is not selling anywhere near as well as XP, I'm willing to bet they wish that they were selling well at this point and that they had put a little more focus into this segment of the market.

Re:Costco... (1)

blackicye (760472) | about 7 years ago | (#18484331)

Actually, user experience and performance aside.

Surprisingly driver and hardware compatibility issues for Vista are actually not that bad, I've installed it on 3 PCs so far, two older systems (1 1/2 and 2 years old) and one newer system (1 month old)

I've not had any hardware incompatibilities so far but YMMV. The closest I've gotten to driver incompatibilities was one of the motherboards had an onboard Creative SB Live 5.1 chip. But a visit to Creative's website solved that, though it took some digging.

There are many reasons to avoid Vista, but from my experiences so far, drivers surprisingly isn't one of them. The main reason I'd avoid Vista is the price and the loss in performance, though no new OS generally increases performance on the same hardware, especially in the case of MS. Many are beginning to compare Vista to ME, which may still be a valid comparison at this point, but the driver do work.

Borrow a disk from someone who has purchased a copy, and install it as a 30 day evaluation copy, you may not like the way it looks or performs but you'll be surprised at how much hardware in compatible out of the box. Some small consolation I guess.

Re:Costco... (1)

kahrytan (913147) | about 7 years ago | (#18484473)

You are right. People will end up returning it. Thank God that Costco has a very liberal return policy. If it isn't compatible with your old pc hardware, simply return it for full refund.

  I have personally vowed to let XP be my last Windows license due to Vista's DRM and TPM control measures.

Re:Costco... (2, Insightful)

Ltar (1010889) | about 7 years ago | (#18484495)

I think a major reason that Vista isn't flying off the shelves like XP did is because people don't NEED Vista. XP works just fine. Windows 2000/me, however, was a terribly mangled and unstable peice of software. XP, in my experience, has been remarkably stable.

ME, on the other hand, which I was running before XP... well... There was definitely a sense of urgency in switching to XP.

Re:Costco... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484599)

If you were using ME then yea, I can see your urgency...
I was using 2000 (as in w2k), and I was highly reluctant in upgrading to XP.

I never did, on my own.

It was an invoulentary upgrade, it came with the boxes, basically.
Then there's the whole thing about it being stopped support-wise, by microsoft.

So... my 'incentive', for going 2k->XP, was force and fear. That's all it was.

wtf kind of writeup is this? (4, Funny)

User 956 (568564) | about 7 years ago | (#18483623)

Is Microsoft having worries about selling Vista already? ... To make matters worse, the discount program would still end up costing you $100 more than the older 'family' discount

Ok, then they're not worried about selling Vista, if the new discount program is worse than the old discount program. A rational person would draw the opposite conclusion: that they're confident in Vista sales numbers. At least, enough to reduce the incentive.

Keep on waiting... (4, Insightful)

Junior J. Junior III (192702) | about 7 years ago | (#18483635)

Not buying Vista at all, ever, will save you the most money in the long run. Not to mention aggravation.

Re:Keep on waiting... (4, Insightful)

Seumas (6865) | about 7 years ago | (#18483693)

Not buying Vista at all, ever, will save you the most money in the long run. Not to mention aggravation.
Getting most videogames - say Crysis - to run in linux is pretty fucking aggravating.

Between OEMs putting it on all new systems and people opting for it on their home-builds once games start making use of DirectX 10, Vista will rule the market just like XP, 2000, 98, 95, etc have.

It really sucks having to have a special OS just to play videogames.

Oh well.

Re:Keep on waiting... (4, Funny)

aussie_a (778472) | about 7 years ago | (#18483743)

If someone designed a computer/OS that allowed you to just throw a game CD/DVD in, no installing or drivers and just turn on the computer and play it, I would be all over that like a bad rash.

If only there was a computer like that, if only.....

Re:Keep on waiting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484063)

If someone designed a computer/OS that allowed you to just throw a game CD/DVD in, no installing or drivers and just turn on the computer and play it, I would be all over that like a bad rash.

As we have all these Live-CD:s and virtualization technology, how is it that game companies can't make a self-contained, booting environment which would boot up and start the game whatever your regular platform was?

Re:Keep on waiting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484231)

PS1/2/3, GameCube, Wii, Xbox/360, Dreamcast.

Re:Keep on waiting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484271)

Aka console. That's why consoles are selling more and more and now the retail PC gaming market barely exists outside of World of Warcraft and The Sims.

Re:Keep on waiting... (1)

Tokerat (150341) | about 7 years ago | (#18484377)

It's called a "console". They even come with special keyboards you can hold in your hand.

Re:Keep on waiting... (1, Troll)

cyrtainne (1078481) | about 7 years ago | (#18484073)

Just buy a game console already. You don't need to use your computer for games. Oh! even better! Look up one of those mods where you can build your game console (Gamecube or whatever) into your computer case! Heck, you could have Linux and your favorite game in the console running at the exact same time and switch from one to the other with a switch on the front of the case! Anyway, just a thought.

Re:Keep on waiting... (0)

Seumas (6865) | about 7 years ago | (#18484151)

Do you actually play videogames? Can you fucking imagine playing Civilization IV, StarCraft, Supreme Commander, CounterStrike or any other number of FPS, RPG and especially RTS/Strategy games on a god damn console at lower resolution and with a fucking sloppy controller?! I would shoot myself.

I save my console for games like Saints Row that I play when I'm ready for an hour of braindead fun every six months.

Re:Keep on waiting... (1)

Stormwatch (703920) | about 7 years ago | (#18484693)

I get your point -- and disagree entirely.

Try to play a fighting game with a keyboard. What a pain, it's a chore to do a simple hadouken! Try a platformer. A racing game. A shmup. Almost anything will be far more enjoyable with a good gamepad than with keyboard and mouse. And if the game is done right, RTSs and FPSs will play just fine with a gamepad too.

Re:Keep on waiting... (1, Insightful)

blackicye (760472) | about 7 years ago | (#18483853)

Not to be an MS Apologist, but Vista really doesn't seem all that bad. Its driver support is actually pretty decent.
I'm evaluating Vista Business on my office desktop atm, its been installed for 2 weeks, aside from it feeling a little bloated its working fine so far. (A64-3500+, 1 GB Ram, nforce 4 mobo, nVidia 6800GS)

I was quite surprised actually when I installed it on a slightly older PC last week, I was having serious problems getting the onboard RAID on the MSI K8N SLI Platinum to work properly with an additional drive. More likely an MSI problem than an XP Problem.
(1GB DDR400, A64-3000+ CPU, nVidia 6800GS)

XP just wouldn't recognize the additional drive, or the onboard SATA controller for the drive. I figured since the install was pretty much shot I'd try installing a copy of Vista business upgrade and see how much worse it could get. I was actually shocked when everything was detected on install, and its running fine (if a little slowly) now.

So in a sense it actually reduced my aggravation, though mainly because I'm not the one who has to use that PC.

Re:Keep on waiting... (2)

dwater (72834) | about 7 years ago | (#18484135)

> ...I'm evaluating Vista Business on my office desktop atm

You have a desktop atm? ...and it's running vista?

It'd be cooler if it wasn't running vista, but still, not bad.

Deals may get sweeter by the OS wont! (1)

with_him (815684) | about 7 years ago | (#18483929)

+1 on the save your money and avoid the aggravation until you now longer can avoid it concept

Re:Keep on waiting... (2, Insightful)

icepick72 (834363) | about 7 years ago | (#18484403)

Indeed not buying Vista ever will save you the headaches of Windows just as never buying Tiger will save you the headaches of Mac and never buying Ubuntu will save you the headaches of Linux. However if everybody followed this advice then nobody would have an operating system.

Re:Keep on waiting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484651)

Also being dead will save you lots of money and aggrevation.

cheap vista?!? (0, Troll)

acidrain (35064) | about 7 years ago | (#18483641)

I'm planning switch my existing XP licences to new hardware if I decide to get a new machine. Arguably Microsoft should have to pay early adopter for the risk associated with a new Windows release, when you consider the TCO disadvantage.

Tom Peterson (3, Insightful)

Seumas (6865) | about 7 years ago | (#18483643)

Tom Peterson [wweek.com] says "Free is a very good price!".

And I agree.

At this point, I have no interest in paying for Windows. I do, however, require at least one Windows box (currently XP64) for gaming and testing deployment of some of our enterprise applications at home. I also don't really care to go through the trouble of finding a viable crack on bit torrent or anything. I will probably buy it once there are games which I must have that demand DirectX10 for the coolest gaming experience -- and I will do so when I am in the process of building a new machine so that I can get the OEM version.

Even at that, I will not spend $200. I might spend $140. And that's for the full version (4gb+, multi-core, 64bit, etc). Otherwise they can just eat it. The only reason I ever need to jump off my solaris, debian or OSX boxes is to play games. Period.

Re:Tom Peterson (1)

qzulla (600807) | about 7 years ago | (#18483959)

You said this:

I do, however, require at least one Windows box (currently XP64) for gaming and testing deployment of some of our enterprise applications at home.

Then this:

The only reason I ever need to jump off my solaris, debian or OSX boxes is to play games. Period.

Which is it? Yer confusing me.


Re:Tom Peterson (1)

kahrytan (913147) | about 7 years ago | (#18484535)

Re-read it. He is saying that only reason why he stops using his other 3 boxes is to play games on his Windows box and do work that requires Windows.

Re:Tom Peterson (1)

danielk1982 (868580) | about 7 years ago | (#18484237)

>Even at that, I will not spend $200. I might spend $140. And that's for the full version (4gb+, multi-core, 64bit, etc). Otherwise they can just eat it. The only reason I ever need to jump off my solaris, debian or OSX boxes is to play games. Period.

Then get ready to get on your knees and pucker-up because in a few years, games will no longer support XP. And no - you won't get a discount for Vista. Full-price for you bitch. =)

unsuprised (2)

mgabrys_sf (951552) | about 7 years ago | (#18483651)

So - in effect what the summary (and yes I glanced ad the convoluted link) is that an OS that is available in 7 different versions would have a complex discount scheme.

And Microsoft is suprised that people aren't jumping into this? Hell, it makes shopping for HDTVs simple in comparrision.

Why ? (5, Insightful)

billcopc (196330) | about 7 years ago | (#18483659)

I still don't quite understand why people would rush to get Vista. XP works the same if not better, there's actually mature driver support (well, mature is a relative term when talking about ATI, NVidia et al), and you know the software you need works on XP. This reminds me of over a decade ago when we all rushed to get Windows 95 the day it came out, only to pummel our PC's into dust with all the problems it caused. Printers no longer printing, internet dialer no longer dialing, and of course the joys of our old 16-bit apps crashing half the time. It was painful. I ended up dual-booting back to classic Dos + Wfw311 for a while longer while the dust settled. Vista is going to be the same story... give it a year, for most users it will have stabilized and 3rd party support will be established. Right now it doesn't even know which end to poop from.

Re:Why ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18483747)

Because some people are developers?

How do you think your printer, internet dialer and old 16-bit apps eventually worked under Windows 95? Because developers bought Windows 95 and worked on this. Same with Vista.

Re:Why ? (1)

cdrudge (68377) | about 7 years ago | (#18484287)

I still don't quite understand why people would rush to get Vista.
For exactly the same reason why people run out and download/install the latest RedHat, Suse, etc distro as soon as it becomes available. Because they can.

Re:Why ? (2, Insightful)

GFree (853379) | about 7 years ago | (#18484405)

There is a small difference however. Downloading a Linux distro is free, Vista (assuming you get it legit) is not. Trying out a new distro won't cost you anything except for time, so he's questioning why people are rushing to put money down for Vista so soon.

Re:Why ? (1)

glittalogik (837604) | about 7 years ago | (#18484627)

Can't speak for RH/Suse etc., but having used Ubuntu for about two and a half years now, I've never had an upgrade (always installed within a week of full release) with worse hardware compatibility for my (admittedly fairly generic) setup than previous versions. IOW, it worked before it got released, not 12 months after.

All I know... (2, Insightful)

peterbiltman (1059884) | about 7 years ago | (#18483671)

... is that I switched to Vista about 2 weeks ago and am loving it. Despite all the negativity people seem to have about it I find most of that negativity comes from people who have never installed it or used it.

Re:All I know... (3, Interesting)

Forrest Kyle (955623) | about 7 years ago | (#18483763)

I think some of the negativity comes from being asked to spend $200 on a big thing that is so complex it requires me to upgrade my computer, and it does pretty much exactly what my current thing does. Not to mention that it will probably have an unknown (But larger than zero) amount of DRM and snooping software woven throughout.

For instance, here is a basic list of the applications I use regularly:

Office XP
Games purchased before 2005
Cakewalk Recording Studio

And here is a list of applications I won't be able to use without Vista:
Games made after 2008

Re:All I know... (3, Insightful)

RobertM1968 (951074) | about 7 years ago | (#18483811)

Funny.... not a single tech where I work thinks it's worth upgrading except to play with and learn to fulfill our job duties. We use it all the time. We field tons of questions that end up being answered with "Sorry you just bought a machine with Vista on it. Now you have to wait for the compatible ___________ (driver/app/game patch) to run that ___________ (piece of hardware/app/game)". We have a ton of HP laptops that dont even have proper webcam support in Vista - even though the webcam is built in to the machine. We have lots of multi-function "Vista Ready" printers that only print on Vista... no scan, no fax via computer, no reading from the card readers built into them. We have numerous machines with the most horrendous video support imaginable - right out of the box. The "lower end" systems running the Vista Demo video are getting 5-10 frames per second... and by lower end, I mean AMD 4000+ and similar speed Intels, with what otherwise would be at least mid-range or decent video chipsets. We have people coming in all the time asking why WoW (and dozens of other games) doesnt run properly, or does weird things. Or why Sleep/Suspend/Hibernate does weird things. Or why so many "Vista Capable"/"Vista Ready" pieces of hardware or software dont run or run poorly.

As for sales slumping... well, at the CompUSA we work at, we didnt start to move Vista until recently - and I think that was due to two factors (1) we sold out of XP finally and (2) since we are a closing store, we are discounting it by 15%. Yes, they are finally selling, but still at a snails pace... a handful before this change happened has become two handfuls now. Anyone wants to buy a copy or three, come on in, we have TONS still. And they are discounted 15% at my store at the least - if not in all the closing stores (some may even have higher discounts already). Our Mac sales, oddly, have tripled - we are near out of them (and they are more expensive and barely discounted at all), but have tons of Vista machines, and people coming in to buy every last XP machine we have (only thing left are some Systemax boxes that no one seems too keen on buying... anything else with XP RAN out the door rather quickly).


Re:All I know... (2, Interesting)

TheNetAvenger (624455) | about 7 years ago | (#18484449)

Reason #189 not to shop at CompUSA.

Reason #188 was their restocking policy, if you buy a defective device and they don't have the exact same one on the shelf, they charge you 15% to change to another brand or model. Such a nice company... (gag)

Seriously CompUSA has become the laughing stock of consumer tech PC industry. If your techs had more background or training, this would not be their response to people, the driver issues would be something they would know the workarounds to, and people getting 10-15fps on and AMD 4000+ is irrelevant, the GPU is what makes or breaks a games performance. So when you are selling systems with on board Geforce 1150 Video, or Intel 945G chipsets, it doesn't matter if they are in XP or Vista, Video performance is going to suck in games. PERIOD.

In our labs any Geforce 5200 or ATI 9600 or higher system do great under Vista and with the latest drivers in almost EVERY game out perform XP 5-10%, let alone the speed increases in multi-tasking the games and load times. Here is the trick, to beat XP performance, the system need 1GB of RAM. PERIOD. This is not a huge jump, as 90% of gamers have had 1GB in their systems for a couple of years now.

So considering that a Geforce 5600 and ATI 9600 are SEVERAL years old and AT THE BOTTOM of what is required for 99% of games made since 2002, there is no reason that people should continue to believe Vista takes high end hardware for good graphics and YES all the Glass Eye Candy.

Vista with only 512mb will run as fast as XP for general business applications, games being the exception since most games load in at 700-800mb...

If people are serious about Vista and don't know where to start, even freaking BestBuy has a track record with trained personnel for the Vista launch. They have the tech teams that usually have the 'right' answers and even their PC sales teams understand Vista enough to answer most people's questions on why Vista is better beyond common marketing hype.

Re:All I know... (1)

RobertM1968 (951074) | about 7 years ago | (#18484523)

Hmmmm... lets see now... these are HP and Compaq machines, with no updated drivers, and ONBOARD video... we'll just swap out the video cards... oh wait... onboard... guess we'll just add a new video card to the system (some dont even have certified drivers yet) put it all back together AND THEN sell it because HP screwed up. The IDENTICAL machines (with slightly different model numbers to denote they were running XP) ran the same videos far faster. It's a lack of finished, optimized, fixed drivers (and/or any combination of those three things).

Nor does Vista run as fast as XP with 512MB of RAM - on ANYTHING, running ANYTHING. Even MS would laugh and the ludicrousness of that statement (run the Vista Compatibility Tool on a machine with 512MB of RAM and see what it tells you).

And this isnt a CompUSA thing... and you are off the mark on the entire rest of your posts as well... we charge a restocking fee on *some* NON-DEFECTIVE stuff. We'll give you ALL of your money back on defective stuff. (until now, for the closing stores which are running liquidation sales with no returns). And as for background and/or training, our techs are REQUIRED to have more training and more certifications to back them up than Best Buy.

As for Best Buy having trained Vista Launch Personnel, they got the exact same training, FROM MICROSOFT, just like my guys.

Get a clue, get a life, and/or get your facts straight
- pick one or more of the above.

Re:All I know... (0)

sheldon (2322) | about 7 years ago | (#18484531)

There's a reason why CompUSA is closing it's stores.

And it's not because of good prices and qualified tech staff.

Re:All I know... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484401)

Maybe the people who are being negative are doing so because they TRIED to install and use it, but it wouldn't work. Hm?

personal opinion from an ac (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484467)

I personally run it at work and can say its like a kinda buggy xp install. Of course the first thing I did was turn the resource hogging themes off, going classic wherever possible. Its really not that different than xp. You have to be quiet the sleuth for drivers, even from big companies. Just because asus has one soundmax driver, doesnt mean they have a driver for all sounmax motherboards. I also turned off UAC straight away, and considering its in a corporate environment, the firewall. It doesnt re confirm a logoff, but it has "sleep" as the default option, which has never ever worked right in the history of M$. Its all like that. Some good, windows mail much faster, then bad, normally stable apps (firefox or symantec av) crash sometimes for no apparent reason. Good luck if you depend on any badly coded apps. Dlink is the king in that department. Easily copyable paths are not needed, hibernation enabled by default, stupid RDP transmiting my login and pass over the network when it could just act like the old rdp client AND NOT DO THAT. little things.

The whole os is like that. hopefully the bad half of things will be taken out in service packs.

its windows, where else you gonna go?

I had an opposite experience (2, Interesting)

eliot1785 (987810) | about 7 years ago | (#18484499)

I installed a free copy of Vista I got from Dell about 2 weeks ago as well, and immediately uninstalled it. I had made an image of my hard drive pre-upgrade with Norton Ghost so it was pretty easy to do so. I was actually pretty excited about Vista, and ended up being disappointed. My primary complaints include (there may have been more but I uninstalled too quickly to find them):

- they eliminated the expanding "All Programs" menu from the Start menu (wtf?), so instead you have to scroll up and down interminably on a little window in the Start menu. Think of it like using Start on your Blackberry. It's either that or use search to find your program.
- 10,000 shades of teal mixed with an unchangeable grey/black/silver Taskbar / Start menu = extreme nausea, plus there is no way to change it.
- Flip 3D is not useful because you have to use either a 3-key combo to use it or click on a little button on the taskbar to use it. I would have preferred just using my mouse scrollwheel...
- The "User Access Control" thing warned me 3 times in a row about WinRAR and I couldn't just approve the program...
- The start button is a lot harder to click on now since it's not synonymous with the corner - you have to visually find it.

I really liked IE until they screwed everything up in IE7, and now I've started using Firefox. I am wondering whether Vista will do the same thing and force me to start using a Mac and/or Linux. Linux still isn't an option though because the media copyright issues make it hard to use for multimedia applications. And a Mac screams "vendor lock-in". So maybe I'll just use XP forever...

Re:All I know... (3, Insightful)

DigitAl56K (805623) | about 7 years ago | (#18484529)

How does one persons random opinion with no surrounding discussion get modded insightful?

Here, I'll give you my opinion too:
I have installed it and I have used it, and I hated it.

Well, I guess you're going to have to toss a coin on who to believe...

everyone knows the drill (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18483695)

After a new version of Windows is released, if you buy a new PC you get it pre-installed, as it is usually the only choice available. If your machine is 4+ years old you never upgrade. Otherwise, you best wait 1 1/2 years for SP1 to get the features, usability, and security Microsoft had hoped to ship; maybe with some entertainment "pack" stuff thrown in. Or you can wait for SP2, which works out that you just forget about it as far as that machine is concerned.

XP SP2 is reasonably stable, I don't see any point in upgrading.

Re:everyone knows the drill (1)

Mathinker (909784) | about 7 years ago | (#18484683)

> If your machine is 4+ years old you never upgrade.

Assuming that this is because you can't (easily) upgrade to a newer version of Windows because of lack of support for the older hardware, you should consider upgrading to a current version of Linux.

All's well in the world... (3, Funny)

FMota91 (1050752) | about 7 years ago | (#18483711)

Haiku: Move along...

Sony is failing,
Windows Vista is failing,
Nothing to see here.

Missed oportunity (0)

geekoid (135745) | about 7 years ago | (#18483881)

yoiu need nature in a traditional Haiku.

Sony is failing
The Vista is limited,
Nothing to see here.

I used vista as a pun. So It can read either way.

Yes, it is a poor pun, but that's just the first one off my head.

Re:Missed oportunity (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484089)

Please stop posting kthx

Yeah, but... (4, Interesting)

Null Nihils (965047) | about 7 years ago | (#18483713)

Microsoft makes most of its money through its OEM deals. I believe the number bandied about is that 80% of its Windows revenue comes not directly from the consumer, but from the "Microsoft tax" on nearly all computers sold. Also, the price MS charges OEMs for Windows is already a lot lower than that charged for an off-the-shelf version. A lot of Microsoft's revenue also depends on businesses and government, not consumers. These "discounts" seem more like the fevered imaginings of a marketing drone who wants to make Windows seem like a "sweet deal". It may not even be a ploy to make more sales in the consumer section, it might be just another trick to increase awareness of the Vista brand; nothing makes consumers perk up their ears like the word "discount", even if they are ultimately not interested in a new operating system.

Re:Yeah, but... (2, Insightful)

FractalZone (950570) | about 7 years ago | (#18483925)

Microsoft makes most of its money through its OEM deals.

See my .sig line. If M$ can't legally bundle its buggy bloatware, it will either have to create/buy good software, or go under. I don't quite hate M$ the way some folks do, although I think it has never done anything technologically innovative worth mentioning. M$ just needs a massive kick in the ass to get it in gear and shift its direction. Despite Google snagging the cream of the IT/CS crop these days, MS has some very impressive capabilities...ones it has no motivation to use as long as it can fall back on its monopoly position to generate big bucks.

IBM went through the kind of humbling process I am talking about. IBM is no longer the "environment" where computing is concerned, but it has been the source of funding for great pure research and incredible development efforts for decades. With a little "spanking" from the courts, I think M$ might become a good, yet still very profitable, corporate citizen.

Re:Yeah, but... (1)

Paco103 (758133) | about 7 years ago | (#18484409)

I agree with your post, my response is only to the signature. I've made my share of complaints about Microsoft and Windows in my life, but with the whole bundling argument I disagree. I don't like that Microsoft bundles IE, which is an inferior browser, and MSN, which is an inferier messenger client and network. This alone pushes many people to it, including our corporate environments (yes, we use MSN/Windows Live messenger, along with many other companies). The problem with the bundling thing is, why should Microsoft NOT be allowed to bundle their apps? Should Ford not be allowed to bundle Ford engines with their cars? Perhaps we should buy a car, then run down to an engine dealer and buy an engine. Of course, to a mechanic, this may sound great. To an end user though, where do they get support? If my engine is too powerful and tears up my transmission, who should fix it? My guess is that Ford would blame the engine, and that the engine manufacturer would blame the drive train. Of course, we don't see any complaints about Ford bundling their cars with Ford engines, transmissions, etc. I bought a Sony shelf stereo a few yeard back. I wanted to use it with Pioneer speakers. . . but the stereo was only sold in a bundle with its own speakers. Of course, I could still use Pioneer speakers if I wanted to, but I had little incentive since the ones that came with it still sounded good. Logitech only sells the Bluetooth version of the MX1000 laser mouse in a bundle with their bluetooth keyboard. I'm not saying I LIKE the bundling that Microsoft does, and it is, in some ways, an entirely different circumstance due to their overwhemling domination of the desktop market. However in the real world, there is still nothing that stops you from running alternatives, even within windows itself. My home computer runs Windows XP, but nothing else is Microsoft. I use Winamp, Trillian, Firefox, Thunderbird, and OpenOffice. My parents use a similar setup to run their company.

Re:Yeah, but... (1)

drsmithy (35869) | about 7 years ago | (#18484445)

See my .sig line.

[...] Outlaw "bundling" -- all items should be discretely negotiable!

Yeah. I just can't *wait* to have to buy a car one component at a time, and wear the extra cost the manufacturers and sellers will be passing on to consumers...

Who gets to decide what constitutes an "item" ? On what basis ?

The Choice Is Clear (3, Informative)

lotusleaf (928941) | about 7 years ago | (#18483759)

More and more I'm seeing these types of stories pop up:

* "FREE AT LAST" [freemarketnews.com] by David Bond [freemarketnews.com] 03/19/2007

Quotes from the "FREE AT LAST" linked article above: (bold emphasis mine)

"But we were prepared for this Microsoft gambit. Why, we asked, after thousands of dollars already expended, should we feed the Microsoft maw again? Why this kilobuck penalty because we're getting a new machine? Made no sense."

"So down it came to the nut-cutting time. Brand-new computer, sitting here on top of the desk. Chicken-out, go with Windows, or take the Linux plunge. Let's see: $800 for Vista and Office 2007, single install, or Ubuntu, Firefox and Open Office, all for free."

IMO, I feel the title of that most excellent article pretty much sums up the growing change going on today. Why spend when a free and open alternative exists?

Re:The Choice Is Clear (1)

Klanglor (704779) | about 7 years ago | (#18483897)

well not to say anything... but i agree that firefox is as good if not better than explorer. (especially with skins, makes its amazing) but office still kicks open office's big time, its actually worth the money for a business to use ms office instead of open office. and you know what sales speaks, office 2007 sales is doing much better than vista. :D

Hyped product sitting on shelves? (1)

TheUni (1007895) | about 7 years ago | (#18483765)

Seems familiar...
Take a lesson from sony, this should help:

Cue Ballmer: "If you can find a [copy of vista] anywhere in North America that's been on shelves for more than a few minutes, I'll give you 1,200 bucks for it."

Re:Hyped product sitting on shelves? (1)

7of7 (956694) | about 7 years ago | (#18484217)

Microsoft needs to take a lesson from Sony and ignore the outright lies being pushed on the internet. The PS3 is, in reality, selling quite well. It's selling better than the 360 did at this juncture. Vista is the same way. It is selling just as every new OS sells initially. I remember the same stories being pushed around Slashdot when XP came out about how this was finally Linux's time to shine. Fortunately XP took off and now it's Vista's turn to weather the storm of FUD from the FOSS community and go on to be a successful operating system just like previous generations. That's the thing about Microsoft, instead of spending time creating FUD like the FOSS community does it actually develops software and that's why it is the clear winner. It seems that the FOSS community needs to take it's (correct) philosophy and apply it to software instead of trying to steal Republican tactics and smear the competition.

Discount? (0, Flamebait)

blankoboy (719577) | about 7 years ago | (#18483841)

Never mind the discount. If you want me to be Vista and run it on my home PC please get rid of the WGA and arcane DRM crud. Then I might consider installing your shiny new OS.

Then again, if Steve Jobs were to beat you to the punch and "officially" support OSX on standard x86 PC's you could kiss my $$ goodbye forever Micrsoft! Sadly, this is not likely to happen anytime soon.

Re:Discount? (1)

alfredo (18243) | about 7 years ago | (#18484441)

The hardware is not that expensive now. It used to be. Anyway, Apple is a hardware company. The software just adds value to the hardware. Many buy Macs for the OS, not the hardware.

OSX will be at the center of many aspects of the home, but most importantly will be the delivery of content like music, TV, and movies. The OS will be what ties all those different devices, (iPod, iTV, and iPhone) together. Apple would be crazy to license the OS.

Riiiight (1, Insightful)

davmoo (63521) | about 7 years ago | (#18483889)

Is Microsoft having worries about selling Vista already?

Yeh, sure...Microsoft is crying all the way to the bank.

Is this that slow of a news day?

Buy a low end mac (1)

nighty5 (615965) | about 7 years ago | (#18483905)

This will furfill most requirements except hardcore gamers....

I can't believe Microsoft can sell their expensive O/S at that price, no wonder they rely on discounts.

In Australia the list price for Ultimate is something like $750 !

Can almost buy a full hardware computer for that kind of money... insane.

Utterly irrelevant. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18483955)

Retail sales of XP were not much better than Vista currently is. But today XP has quite a large install base simply because it is (was) installed by default on all new computers. In 3 or 4 years Vista will have a similar amount of the market that XP has today. Bookmark this comment so you can come back in a few years and see how silly all of this bashing is. I'm laughing about it already.

What is the compelling reason to buy Vista (1, Redundant)

cyberfringe (641163) | about 7 years ago | (#18484055)

I have a home network with 6 Macs of various types and three solid home-built PCs running XP. Everything (for now) seems to work great. Why in the world should I spend any money at all for Vista? Just wondering.

The Only problem (4, Interesting)

kilodelta (843627) | about 7 years ago | (#18484081)

Is that it doesn't play nicely with AD domains. I know, we tried it and it failed miserably. Microsoft really dropped the ball on this one. I mean, even 2000 and XP could connect to both standard NT domains and AD domains. But Vista has issues, even going so far as completely screwing up the network settings. And friends in the market for a laptop are begging me to downgrade their machines to XP because critical applications they use will NOT run on Vista.

having so many editions is part of the problem (3, Insightful)

jonwil (467024) | about 7 years ago | (#18484159)

You have Vista Home, Vista Home Premium, Vista Business, Vista Enterprise and Vista Ultimate.

IMO, Vista Enterprise shouldn't exist with the bitlocker and other "enterprise" features being either made available in Vista Business or as some kind of add-on.

The "N" versions need to exist to comply with anti-trust rulings and really are just the normal versions with windows media player files removed from the CD/DVD
and the installer.

That would basically leave 4 editions of vista, Home Basic, Home Premium, Business and Ultimate

This is a fun game. (2, Interesting)

exp(pi*sqrt(163)) (613870) | about 7 years ago | (#18484213)

If you must buy Vista, it might be advisable to sit on your wallet for a while. The discounts are bound to get sweeter
If you must buy Vista, try to manipulate the price by posting a story on high profile web sites about how you should hold off buying Vista until the price drops.

The vista refund that may get results (1, Insightful)

hhandyman (1080155) | about 7 years ago | (#18484295)

the only way id install vista on a system is vista provide any equipment needed to upgrade my computer to current status. (no im not on a Radioshack color computer with a 300 baud modem) but the waste of space by the huge bulk of code may make it easy for a newbie to use a computer but why buy a hyper code stystem that is Apple OS the long way around??

Re:The vista refund that may get results (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484559)



Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
Reason: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.

The only way to sell Vista (3, Funny)

BillGatesLoveChild (1046184) | about 7 years ago | (#18484311)

How about "Buy Vista, and we'll throw in XP for free! XP! The operating system that works:

* High Productivity. None of those annoying UAC messages!
* Device Driver Compatibility. Hardware will work out of the box!
* Applications just work: Even Firefox! Even Visual Studio 2003!
* No DRM. Watch your movies and listen to your music when you want how you want.
* More efficient code, so works on today's hardware! Not only tomorrows!
* XP is cheaper and doesn't have a dozen different versions: 'Oh sir you'll need the Vista Sub Pro Business Home Basic Version!'
* Doesn't make you call Microsoft everytime you want permission to pee

Vista is to XP what New Coke(R) was to Classic Coke(R).

Re:The only way to sell Vista (1)

zcat_NZ (267672) | about 7 years ago | (#18484545)

Doesn't have how many different versions? Last week I was trying to reinstall a computer which has a legit serial number for Windows XP Professional. Shouldn't be a problem, since I have the disks for XP home and XP pro, Right? Nope. It seems that XP Pro (Retail) won't accept a serial for XP Pro (OEM)

So apparently there are already five slightly different versions of Windows XP:
  XP Home (OEM)
  XP Home (Retail)
  XP Pro (OEM)
  XP pro (Retail)
  XP Pro (VLK)

There's only 7 versions of Vista, so it's hardly a big jump. And on the plus side there's only one DVD for all the different versions. Yay!

Windows Vista is the New Coke of Operating Systems (2, Funny)

Orion Blastar (457579) | about 7 years ago | (#18484329)

Coca Cola also couldn't sell New Coke and offered discounts and coupons to make New Coke cheaper in attempts to sell more of it.

Finally faced with reality, Coca Cola took New Coke off the market and replaced it with Coca Cola Classic or Classic Coke.

Once Microsoft figures out that Windows Vista is New Coke, maybe it will do the right thing and offer Windows Classic?

If I was Steve Ballmer or Bill Gates I'd offer the following:

Windows Classic 9X (Based on the Windows 95/98/ME code but with improvements and new drivers for Firewire, USB 2.0, SATA) aimed at the low end consumers market and for upgrades for low-tech and low end systems. Priced at $90USD and $45USD for an upgrade.

Windows Classic NT (Based on Windows 2000/XP code but with improvements and new drivers for Firewire, USB 2.0, SATA) The Home version for $129USD, the Business version for $179, and the Media Center version for $199

Windows Classic Server (Based on Windows 2000 Server/2003 Server code) with server applications, and starting at $300USD for a 10 client license, and offering varied prices based on the number of client licenses.

The Windows Classic 9X I would market towards the low end, people with older systems who cannot run modern operating systems. There are so many older 95, 98, ME systems out there that are not longer patched for security that it leaves them vulnerable to hackers and viruses. Having a new, low cost, version of Windows would stop the viruses and hacking, as well as fit their needs of a low cost operating system because they cannot afford to upgrade the hardware. Of course it won't run 2000/XP or Windows Classic NT software, but there is still plenty of Windows 9X type software out there.

The Windows Classic NT would be marketed towards modern hardware and people who want an OS with more features in it, who don't mind paying extra for it. The Home version is the very basics and the core of the Windows Classic NT OS. Business adds in more supports for networks, logging into a domain, running an ISS web server, etc. Media Center allows better control of media and creating media and sharing it with other devices as a server.

The Windows Classic Server is basically a File, Print, Web, Email, etc general server. I would keep a low cost of $300USD for 10 client licenses so that small businesses can afford it, and then charge more for more client licenses.

Now these Classic operating systems wouldn't have all the features of Vista, and Vista would be kept for those who want to run it. The Classic operating systems would allow security companies to write security software for them like antivirus, firewall, drive encryption, etc.

If Microsoft won't make Windows Classic 9X, just release all of the undocumented 9X API calls so some other company can write a 9X operating system from scratch to cater to those who want to run an older version of Windows.

Re:Windows Vista is the New Coke of Operating Syst (2, Insightful)

TheNetAvenger (624455) | about 7 years ago | (#18484481)

The Windows Classic 9X I would market towards the low end, people with older systems who cannot run modern operating systems

I hope at least in your own mind you were trying to be funny.

The Win9x code base with no security and roots to 3.1 and DOS is why developers have screwed up many applications still in use on XP.

Also consider XP runs well on 80MB and a 200mhz processor (faster than Win95 or Win98 did), it is time to let these computers die, as most Linux distributions won't even run on them.

Re:Windows Vista is the New Coke of Operating Syst (1)

INeededALogin (771371) | about 7 years ago | (#18484483)

dude, seriously wtf...

Why would microsoft want to support multiple code bases that render a display and run binaries in pretty much the same way. And Windows 98 needs to die.

I have a better idea. Layer 3 firewalls at every ISP to watch for identificable Windows95/98/ME traffic and when it is seen, Deny all on that. Screw these horrible people running these horrible old OSs.

Re:Windows Vista is the New Coke of Operating Syst (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484573)

Windows Classic 9X (Based on the Windows 95/98/ME code but with improvements and new drivers for Firewire, USB 2.0, SATA) aimed at the low end consumers market and for upgrades for low-tech and low end systems. Priced at $90USD and $45USD for an upgrade.

The 9.x branch of Windows should be left as dead. The NT/2000/XP branch has more stability than the the 9.x branch. MS should actually create a slim downed version of NT/2000/XP for low end systems.

Disclaimer: I am not an MS fan boy; I prefer Solaris / Linux / *BSD'S for my work and personal use.

The discounts are bound to get sweeter. (1)

NewToNix (668737) | about 7 years ago | (#18484343)

They will never get sweet enough for me...

I remain 100% GNU/Linux and pleased as can be.

MS Trying To Spur Vista Sales With Discounts (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484461)

I've got a discount for ya'. Bittorrent + Windows Vista DVD (contains all versions) + OEM patch. There ya' go. Free.

Discounts? What discounts? Don't count on it. (1)

posterlogo (943853) | about 7 years ago | (#18484471)

Windows XP Upgrades still goes for $99 for a fully legal copy (the full version is ~$150-$200). MS has NEVER offered steep discounts on its OSs, even years and years after they came out. It won't happen this time either. I know the market situation is different, Mac OS X and Linux are gaining ground, but no one ever accused MS of trying to temper their greed with more realistic pricing and marketing.

Simple to me. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18484479)

I skipped WindowsME I think I can live without Vista. I was actually considering building two mid-range machines. One for DOS to run all my oldest games and one with 98. I don't need to move forward.
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