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MS Says Vista Selling At Twice XP's Pace

kdawson posted more than 7 years ago | from the monopoly-will-do-that dept.

Windows 322

Several readers made us aware that Microsoft said today that it sold more than 20 million Windows Vista licenses in the first month after the OS's general debut on January 30. This compares to 17 million licenses of XP sold in the first two months after its release. (Just a coincidence the announcement came out a day after this community's speculation, surely.) Most of the coverage of this story, picked up from Reuters, looks like it follows an MS press release. The Associated Press dug deeper, noting that since XP's release the overall PC market has grown by almost a factor of 2, so it would be a surprise if Vista didn't do twice as well: "...51 million PCs were sold to consumers worldwide in 2002; this year... 96 million consumers will buy a computer." Also, Microsoft's 20 million figure includes the backlog of upgrade coupons bundled with XP computers sold since last October.

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I thought it was.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18495739)

half or that Microsoft can't do math...

Vista Buying Suckers! (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18496607)

Before Vista's release, I bought my Athlon 64 X2 PC with XP Pro X64. I don't plan to upgrade my OS for another 4 years or at least until my games start sucking wind. Maybe by then the game developers will get their sh*t together and start offering more games on Mac and Linux so I can cut the cord for good.

Misleading (5, Insightful)

rackhamh (217889) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495745)

But given that the personal computer market has nearly doubled since XP launched, Vista sales "probably should be more," said Michael Silver, vice president of research at Gartner, a technology research group.

In summary: computer sales up; consumers forced to adopt Vista. Microsoft chuckles gleefully.

Re:Misleading (2, Insightful)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495781)

Nah, consumers have already rationalised their purchase of Vista. Even XP-loyal geeks have downgraded their opinion to "I guess it has some features I'd like on XP" and are seriously considering upgrading.

Re:Misleading (4, Insightful)

rackhamh (217889) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495845)

Consumers don't have to rationalize buying Vista. If they're buying a new computer, they don't have a choice. A telling quote from the article:

Microsoft declined to break out the number of Vista copies sold at retail, though it has said in the past that 80 percent of Windows revenue comes from sales to PC makers.

Eventually we'll all (those of us running Windows) upgrade, but my sense of things right now is that most XP users are waiting until software availability forces the upgrade.

Re:Misleading (3, Insightful)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495873)

Yes, my point was simply that there are people out there who are willingly upgrading and some of them are even geeks.

Re:Misleading (4, Insightful)

spisska (796395) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496001)

Consumers don't have to rationalize buying Vista. If they're buying a new computer, they don't have a choice. A telling quote from the article:

"Microsoft declined to break out the number of Vista copies sold at retail, though it has said in the past that 80 percent of Windows revenue comes from sales to PC makers."

What's more is that the figures suggest that 20 million copies of Vista are currenty being used, rather than having been shipped to OEMs and sitting on shelves. I would suspect that the actual number of Vista licenses in the wild are substantially lower, to the point of embarassment for Microsoft.

Personally, I've bought my last Microsoft license. At the same time I realize that Business runs on Microsoft, Business accounts for the lion's share of Microsoft licenses, and I've yet to see Business in general, or any single business in particular, leaping towards Vista. Most, including the one I work for, are waiting until it is absolutely necessary (certainly not before SP1) before even contemplating a widespread rollout.

The numbers are nonsense and reflective only of PCs in the pipeline (or whatever other figures can be found in Redmond-area proctological exams), not in deployment. In 12 months, Vista will be unavoidable but for now it is a non factor. As far as Business goes, it's still more important to make sure your widget works with MS Windows 2000 than with Vista.

Re:Misleading (4, Interesting)

SpecTheIntro (951219) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496265)

In 12 months, Vista will be unavoidable but for now it is a non factor.

I wouldn't even give them that. Personally, I don't plan on upgrading any of the computers I administer until at least 18 months out. I've got a test machine running Vista Ultimate, and while I'm actually a fan of the features Vista introduces, it will be an absolute nightmare to roll this out to my users, especially since (currently) Vista and Server 2003 don't always see eye-to-eye. Microsoft is just trying to convince people that Vista is doing well, and I understand that, but any business that tries to upgrade any time soon is asking for a world of hurt.

Re:Misleading (0, Troll)

Heir Of The Mess (939658) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496609)

I've yet to see Business in general, or any single business in particular, leaping towards Vista.

Then maybe you should look. Just quickly I found these:

From http://www.windows-now.com/blogs/robert/archive/20 07/03/07/internal-amd-memo-encourages-rapid-compan y-wide-vista-adoption.aspx/ [windows-now.com]

Vista is being deployed at AMD from the top-down, with about 100 users (most of the AMD executives, plus others) using it right now, with many others coming online soon.

From http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,20 393236%5E16123%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html/ [news.com.au]

Westpac bank is rolling out Vista onto 20,000 desktops.

Re:Misleading (1)

uradu (10768) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496267)

It's interesting to observe the "brand-name" computer sellers: all the majors suddenly only provide Vista drivers and support for their new machines. Not even a mention of XP (or God forbid, 2000) on Gateway's or HP's websites. Haven't checked Dell, but I wouldn't be surprised to find the same there.

Re:Misleading (1)

Benaiah (851593) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496461)

Yes you do have a choice. If you buy a computer which has no option to buy without an O/S. Simply take it home and refuse the licensing agreement. Then install your copy of XP you have from your last computer. The company you bought the computer from is obliged to refund the full amount of buying the O/S OEM.

This is why all games stores allow refunds for 7 days. Because games come with EULA's that you cant read till you open the box. And part of that legal requirement is that the stores offer a refund should you decline the EULA.

Re:Misleading (1)

Ltar (1010889) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496593)

But I'm not throwing away my XP disk.

Re:Misleading (1)

nickheart (557603) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496523)

It has none of the features i wanted in XP It doesn't know how to open X: when you double click on a network drive in Explorer still! (since XP sp2). It has a new boot configuration that you cannot change from older operating systems. SUCK! I need to switch from different versions on NT (2K, XP, 2K3 Server, vista...) all the time in the lab to test our new builds. I'm almost as unhappy with Vista as i am with IE7 (try loading about:blank and time how long it takes, this is really sad!). anywho, end rant

Re:Misleading (4, Interesting)

jovetoo (629494) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495893)

Not quite... computer sales up, lots of Vista freebie coupons lying around and still only 20 million copies? Vista is not going well and as far as I can tell Microsoft is doing everything it can to prop up the numbers. Two different discount programs, now this misleading press release. I don't think Microsoft has much reason to be chuckling at all...

Re:Misleading (1)

rackhamh (217889) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496319)

I don't think Microsoft has much reason to be chuckling at all...

They're increasing their install base for Vista. Eventually that will translate into forced upgrades for everyone else. They have plenty to be happy about -- it's just not as immediate as they might wish for.

MS has to show good sales figures to shareholders (4, Insightful)

EmbeddedJanitor (597831) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495897)

Anybody that didn't buy a Vista license would, most likely, have bought an XP license if Vista dis not exist. In other words, Vista has not really increased MS revenues.

The big sell is to MS shareholders. Somehow MS must convince the shareholders that the $5bn spent on Vista is going to be a worthwhile investment.

Re:MS has to show good sales figures to shareholde (1)

rackhamh (217889) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495969)

I'm not an expert on OS adoption, but I imagine it working out something like this:

1) Microsoft pushes Vista onto all new machines sold, creating an install base
2) Developers start creating applications targeted at the install base. Some of these applications are Vista-only. Some of these applications are also created by Microsoft themselves, such as new versions of Office, etc.
3) Motivated by a desire to run the Vista-only applications, users upgrade from XP to Vista.

It seems that simply replacing XP with Vista in new PCs will eventually generate demand for upgrades. It hasn't really happened yet, but I'd expect it to go that way before long. Just because people aren't rushing out to buy Vista doesn't mean it won't be successful in the long run.

I'm looking for an XP computer (4, Funny)

EmbeddedJanitor (597831) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496063)

I am looking to buy a MS-based computer for development (I normally use Linux). I'm looking for an XP computer, not a Vista one. The reason: The Microsoft software I want to run does not run on Vista, only on XP!

Re:MS has to show good sales figures to shareholde (0, Troll)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496421)

The point is, is that they could have just continued to sell XP for the next 5 years, and not wasted 5 billion on the development of Vista. They would still be selling just as many computers, and they would have a much easier time on maintenance because a lot of the bugs have been worked out of XP.

Re:MS has to show good sales figures to shareholde (1)

rackhamh (217889) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496453)

Yes, but the people currently using XP wouldn't ever upgrade. They also couldn't sell all their enterprise applications that will inevitably based on Vista. Microsoft's business is far broader than just Windows, but Windows provides leverage for many of their other products. Sales for one means sales for the other.

Exactly! (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18496021)

> In summary: computer sales up; consumers forced to adopt Vista. Microsoft chuckles gleefully.

[RANT SIZE="VERY LONG"]
Well, at least one of the people I know was actually waiting for Vista to come out (against my advice... but his old computer was Windows ME, so he may be a Microsoft masochist). Of course, he promptly had me out there attempting to fix it because, although it was brand new, it didn't work very well. A few things were just a matter of moving things around: the start menu search is nice, mostly because everything in it was shuffled around for the sake of change--MS Word's "that logo in the upper left is your new File menu" was the stupidest and most confusing change, though. Given that the logo used to be a menu with options like restore, minimize, and close it's not the first place you'd expect to find things like save or open; I finally found it only by process of elimination after looking through most of the other tabs.

And a helpful bit of advice: do NOT use Vista if you want to use a TV tuner. They don't seem to work. DRM? Drivers? I'm not totally sure, but I am convinced that it's an utter waste of time to talk with Bangalore about it (all of Dell's Vista support seems to be in India, the reps transfer you to India immediately, we were unable to get a rep who could speak intelligible English, but worked with them reinstalling useless drivers for a couple of hours, anyhow).

Thus far, I know of no one who has gotten a TV tuner working properly under Vista, so I'm inclined to blame the DRM given that these are brand new Dells and the recordings seem to have the audio downsampled to painful-to-listen-to bitrates (it sounded like they were talking over SSB radio, if that helps any, maybe it just puts the audio through a tight bandpass filter?). Whatever it was doing, we were told a few weeks ago that they'd "contact us if they found a solution." I'm not holding my breath.

Oh, and if you're wondering where the obligatory UAC Allow/Cancel joke is, they're not funny after you've used the stupid thing for 10 minutes. They really, really piss you off in no time flat.

Free bit of advice, if anyone asks you to fix their Vista system: echo y | format c:
Trust me, you're doing them a favor. It's that painful to use.
[/RANT]

- A Very, Very Bitter Techie

Market share (-1, Redundant)

Repton (60818) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495753)

How much has the PC market grown in the six years since Windows XP was released?

Re:Market share (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18495797)

I'm surprised this was modded "interesting", given that the answer is in the freaking article summary.

Quit trolling (-1, Troll)

HomelessInLaJolla (1026842) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495769)

noting that since XP's release the overall PC market has grown by almost a factor of 2
Oh, right, as if that has any impact at all on Vista licensing numbers unless it's just part of some paranoid conspiracy theory. Is the submitter trying to say that Microsoft controls the PC market?

Re:Quit trolling (0, Offtopic)

HomelessInLaJolla (1026842) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495839)

Coming from anyone else it would've been funny.

sounds about right (1)

User 956 (568564) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495795)

MS Says Vista Selling At Twice XP's Pace ... The Associated Press dug deeper, noting that since XP's release the overall PC market has grown by almost a factor of 2, so it would be a surprise if Vista didn't do twice as well

Well, then surprise! There's no surprise!

Spelling.. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18495801)

MS Says Vista Selling At Twice XP's Price

There. Fixed that for you.

Re:Spelling.. (1)

CmdrPorno (115048) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496575)

That's what I thought it said at first glance, too... Is there such a thing as selective, wishful dyslexia?

The PC market is larger now (0, Redundant)

techmuse (160085) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495825)

The PC market is considerably larger than it was when XP started shipping, so you would expect more sales. The question is what percentage of the market has purchased a vista upgrade or a new machine with vista compared to the same for XP? Note that nearly all consumer machines are now offered only with Vista. So given the choice between Vista and Vista, people who want a new machine are oddly choosing...Vista.

xp is still selling (1)

radar bunny (140304) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495833)

I work for an office supply store that shall remain nameless but what it interesting is how people have come back after buying a Vista system to purchase a copy of XP. Of course a lot of people are rushing in to buy Vista systems at great prices even though they only have 512 ram which is bare bones minimal.

Huh? Of course they are! (2, Interesting)

Runefox (905204) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495855)

this year... 96 million consumers will buy a computer.


Of course they are! People are fed up with cleaning spyware off their machines, to the point of buying a new one when the old one crashes. It's only in the very recent past (actually, mostly within XP's lifetime) that spyware's become such a menace, after all.

Re:Huh? Of course they are! (2, Interesting)

lcohiomatty86 (985176) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495927)

there should be more information out there pertaining to how to do accurate data backups and hard drive imaging, where a customer can easily revert their hard drive back to a "clean" state within minutes if somehting goes wrong, and being able to restore their my documents folder as well, making getting a clean fast computer easy again, instead of having to give microsoft MORE MONEY for a CRAPPY PRODUCT!

Re:Huh? Of course they are! (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495931)

Well a lot of people don't even know they have spyware they just think it is running slow. So when their computer starts running slow it must mean that it is time for a new system. Not a reinstall of the OS and about a half a day of running updates.

Re:Huh? Of course they are! (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495973)

Well a lot of people don't even know they have spyware they just think it is running slow. So when their computer starts running slow it must mean that it is time for a new system. Not a reinstall of the OS and about a half a day of running updates.
New PCs tend not to come with an operating system that can be reinstalled so easily. They come with a "restore" CD that puts back all the spyware that came with the machine.

Re:Huh? Of course they are! (1)

westlake (615356) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496177)

Of course they are! People are fed up with cleaning spyware off their machines, to the point of buying a new one when the old one crashes.

This has become the new Slashdot mantra.

But I have to tell that in this upscale suburb the last Windows PC I saw at the curb for pick-up was a crapped-out Packard Bell 486.

Re:Huh? Of course they are! (1)

HomelessInLaJolla (1026842) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496527)

Considering the price of a new PC, compared with the average expendable income of the average segment of the population from which the media derives its content for this topic, are you surprised?

I'd like to see how they arrive at that number. (2, Informative)

Chas (5144) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495881)

I'm willing to bet that they're counting all the upgrade coupons as "sales" as well.

Like how they count their MS CRM software.

Basically anyone who has an Action Pack is counted as an MS CRM user.

Re:I'd like to see how they arrive at that number. (1)

Pikoro (844299) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495925)

Um... didn't the article say 20 million copies _SHIPPED_, not sold?

Re:I'd like to see how they arrive at that number. (1)

Chas (5144) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496217)

A couple I've seen say "shipped". Some say "sold".

And again, how are the numbers arrived at for "shipped"?

10 licenses with every Action Pack x How many Action Packs?

Forcing vendors to stock up on Vista? (2, Interesting)

walterbyrd (182728) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496017)

I have read that msft is forcing vendors to buy lots of licenses in advance.

Well Long Upgrade Cycle. (2, Informative)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495883)

Well we Had 95, 98 (in 1995, 1998 respectfully) 2000 / ME in 1999,2000 or so. Then XP in 2001, Then Vista in 2007. Well I would expect that people would be wanting a new version. People with 2000 or ME are at a point now they really need an upgrade. With 95 and 98 no longer supported people may be looking for a new version now.

When XP was released People had Windows 2000 and to a lesser extent ME that is good enough. So no need to upgrade. But with the long time for upgrades people with XP when they got a system in 2001 are now due for an upgrade.

Re:Well Long Upgrade Cycle. (4, Insightful)

kextyn (961845) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495963)

Wait a minute. Did you just say Me was "good enough"?! Are you nuts?

XP was a pretty big improvement over what was available prior to it. Most home users were running 98 or Me. The jump from 98/Me to XP was much greater than XP to Vista in my mind.

Re:Well Long Upgrade Cycle. (1)

turing_m (1030530) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496611)

Maybe the jump is the same magnitude, but at least the jump from 98/ME to XP was in the positive direction.

Re:Well Long Upgrade Cycle. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18496309)

But with the long time for upgrades people with XP when they got a system in 2001 are now due for an upgrade.

NO, we are NOT!

Well, to be fair, I guess we are due for one, we're just still waiting for microsoft to release it. XP is a step back as far as I'm concerned, and vista is doubly so. (I am not an idiot and I do not want an OS that assumes I am. Win2k has enough of that crap in it as it is.)

My next laptop will be a mac, and I find that very depressing. Unless I get lucky and linux comes preinstalled (and thus with full hardware support) on laptops once 2009 rolls around.

I would buy vista if... (1, Redundant)

Lord Bitman (95493) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495885)

if it came with XP, so I could run all the software I want to use.

Re:I would buy vista if... (5, Informative)

Taimat (944976) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496627)

If you buy Vista Business, or Ultimate - you have downgrade rights to install XP Pro... This is what I am doing at my office. Every new PC that comes in with Vista - wiped and XP installed. Call up MS licensing, and they generate a key for you when you tell them you are downgrading. Perfectly legal and in the eula. This way, when we finally HAVE to go to vista, the licenses are ready and waiting, since the PCs came with them.

A more interesting question... (1)

rtechie (244489) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495915)

How many copies of Vista have sold at retail? I have seen relatively few problems with OEM installs of Vista on new desktops, but lots of little compatibility problems upgrading a system from XP to Vista (even if doing a clean install). I'd say that isn't roughly comparable to the 98 to 2000 transition.

In other news... (2, Insightful)

HungWeiLo (250320) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495929)

The 2007 Toyota Camry is outselling the 2001 Toyota Camry. Film at 11.

Re:In other news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18496483)

Yeah, but is the 2007 Camry selling at the same rate as the 2001 Camry was in 2001? That's the crux of this article, not current XP sales.

Re:In other news... (1)

AusIV (950840) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496563)

No, other news would be 2007 Toyota Camry is selling better than the 2001 Toyota Camry did. The point here is that Vista is selling better than XP did when it came out. That's an interesting spin though, since sales are 15% higher in a market that has nearly doubled in size.

Microsoft's spokesman (1)

andy314159pi (787550) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495935)

The Microsoft corporation has been kind enough to employ Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf [welovethei...nister.com] as their spokesman after his gig [welovethei...nister.com] in Iraq fell through.

well (4, Interesting)

mastershake_phd (1050150) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495937)

If Windows sales have doubled because the PC market has doubled. Should Linux and Mac sales have also doubled?

Re:well (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18496533)

That might be the dumbest thing I've read in a long time.
The short answer is NO.
The logic that led to you think that Mac & Linux sales should have doubled due to doubling PC market will likely inhibit you from understanding this...but here it goes anyway.
The only (legitimate) way to get windows is to buy it - so sales == (legitimate) distribution.
Linux, on the other hand is freely available, download from anywhere -- there are no sales figures!! ...or were you thinking of support contracts?

Disclaimer: I use Linux. I would be a Mac fanboy - in fact I want to be - except that I can't afford one, or ideally three.

Re:well (1)

mastershake_phd (1050150) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496623)

That might be the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. The short answer is NO. The logic that led to you think that Mac & Linux sales should have doubled due to doubling PC market will likely inhibit you from understanding this...but here it goes anyway. The only (legitimate) way to get windows is to buy it - so sales == (legitimate) distribution. Linux, on the other hand is freely available, download from anywhere -- there are no sales figures!! ...or were you thinking of support contracts? Disclaimer: I use Linux. I would be a Mac fanboy - in fact I want to be - except that I can't afford one, or ideally three.

Well I guess I should have said "Should Linux and Mac use have also doubled?" Not all Linux is freely available, see RedHat Enterprise Linux.

I wonder... (1)

Wicked Zen (1006745) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495943)

Do these numbers include "free upgrades" to Vista? I bought a PC late last year, which shipped with XP Media Center, but included a free upgrade to Vista upon release. I didn't actually buy Vista (I'm not planning to upgrade any time soon, even) but maybe my license is counted among those "sold."

20 million - 2 (5, Informative)

NullProg (70833) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495947)

Two brand new Dell Dimension Workstations ($1200 each) came into our office last week. One remimaged to XP (SP2) because office user said Vista (Pro) was slower than crap. The other was regulated to the lab for dual-boot Redhat/SuSE client testing. Vista wiped clean off it.

What Microsofts Marketing Machine states and what users do are two different things.

Enjoy,

Re:20 million - 2 (1)

loftwyr (36717) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496071)

Add to that all of the upgrade coupons gleefully thrown away on receipt plus those who were scrubbed and replaced with Linux like my laptop.

Hopefully they've sold enough to pay for Bill Gates retirement party.

Re:20 million - 2 (1)

westlake (615356) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496355)

Add to that all of the upgrade coupons gleefully thrown away on receipt plus those who were scrubbed and replaced with Linux like my laptop.

give me a break.

in a market that is 95% Windows the guy who does his Christmas shopping at Dell doesn't toss the coupon worth a $150 software upgrade for his new Vista-rated system.

Re:20 million - 2 (1)

Heir Of The Mess (939658) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496469)

Add to that all of the upgrade coupons gleefully thrown away on receipt plus those who were scrubbed and replaced with Linux like my laptop.
So that's -3 then.

Re:20 million - 2 (3, Insightful)

eebra82 (907996) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496079)

What Microsofts Marketing Machine states and what users do are two different things.

Not really. The announcement Microsoft sent out regards to sales, not the amount of users compared to XP to a given date.

While I'm sure a lot of people remove Vista, a lot of people did when they first got hold of XP too.

20 million - 2 + 2 (2, Interesting)

Hektor_Troy (262592) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496081)

You were obviously dumb enough not to get a refund on Vista (or exchange its license for XP), so to the bean counters, they've made two sales on you. And it gets better, because they will save on the support costs for your Redhat machine.

Re:20 million - 2 (1)

karlto (883425) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496089)

Microsoft doesn't care whether you keep it or not, they still got their cut of that transaction.

Re:20 million - 2 (2, Insightful)

Strudelkugel (594414) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496113)


One remimaged to XP (SP2) because office user said Vista (Pro) was slower than crap.

Interesting. I installed Vista Business on box with a 1.5Ghz P4 and 768M RAM. The MB is about six years old. It runs just fine. If your user says Vista is slow on a $1200 new Dell, something must be wrong with the hardware, or maybe the user just decided he or she didn't like it for some reason.

Re:20 million - 2 (1)

sponga (739683) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496139)

Vista(Pro)?
You mean Vista Premium

Also why would you guys get the premium version of Vista if you work at an office, last I check the premium version only added Windows Media Center and the DVD authoring tools unless you are a media company; unless they don't give you the choice of the Vista Business version or Home.

To each their own I guess.
I recently knew about 20 students/buddies who got fresh new laptops to show up in class and they all continue to doodle away like they did on XP and still turn in all their papers with Vista working perfectly for them like XP.
Laptops are selling like hotcakes around here in Southern California and the nation, even my local Fry's has not really had massive returns of Vista laptops from talking to the workers there and they have one of the easiest return policies ever.

Re:20 million - 2 (1)

edwardpickman (965122) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496223)

It's reminding me of the AOL trial disk carpet bombing. I guess by the same standard AOL could claim 25 billion AOL customers.

Re:20 million - 2 (1)

yagu (721525) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496371)

One remimaged to XP (SP2) because office user said Vista (Pro) was slower than crap. The other was regulated to the lab for dual-boot Redhat/SuSE client testing.

Shoulda relegated the one to the lab for dual-boot.

Re:20 million - 2 (0)

moochfish (822730) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496545)

I have a similar story:

My friend's parents bought a brand new computer. At first they liked the new graphics. But a day later, my friend had to go over and put XP on it because the machine was just *too slow*. It was funny because the first day, my friend was explains how "Vista is kinda cool," and the next day, he says, "Vista is retarded. I'm sticking with XP as long as I can."

As a side note, it took him most of two days to wipe the machine. I didn't ask for details, but apparently Vista is not as cut-and-dry as XP in terms of removing.

The industry isn't the same as it was in 2001. Bloat will be Microsoft's down fall this time around.

Been shopping for a PC recently... (2, Interesting)

backbyter (896397) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495985)

I've been looking to buy a desktop with an AMD Athlon X2 5000+ and 2 gigs or RAM. It seems I can buy one with Vista much cheaper than I can (still) find one with XP Pro.

Re:Been shopping for a PC recently... (2, Informative)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496157)

Careful to compare apples with apples though. Most computers loaded with Vista are loaded with Vista Home Premium: Vista Business is the equivalent of Pro, and is the price Win XP Pro was. Home Premium is cheaper.

Tag: Bullshit (5, Interesting)

ewhac (5844) | more than 7 years ago | (#18495989)

The telling comment is here:

20 million figure includes the backlog of upgrade coupons bundled with XP computers sold since last October.

So Microsoft isn't quoting figures for sales spanning two months, but rather for more than five months, including at least three months of "pre-sales" in the form of coupons which likely may never be redeemed. If the coupon is never redeemed, then it can't be counted as a Vista sale, since Vista was never installed.

More FUD from the masters. Which frankly doesn't surprise me. Without apps irrevocably tied to Vista, there's no impetus to "upgrade," and people will stay with XP. Microsoft is clearly desperate to make Vista appear to have a larger installed base than it does so that ISVs will commit to it.

Schwab

Re:Tag: Bullshit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18496053)

More FUD from the masters.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re:Tag: Bullshit (1)

ewhac (5844) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496167)

I do not think what I think it means is what you think I think it means.

I actually considered momentarily before using the term. Microsoft is trying to make Vista appear more popular than it is. In other words, they are trying to spread uncertainty and doubt about Vista's installed base. And they are also trying to spread fear in the ISVs that they may be "betting the wrong way" by holding back on Vista support.

So, yes, I think this announcement qualifies as FUD.

Schwab

Re:Tag: Bullshit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18496403)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and _doubt [wikipedia.org]

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) is a sales or marketing strategy of disseminating negative (and vague) information on a competitor's product.
This press release does nothing to disparage any competitor's product. What you're referring to is simply misinformation and fabricated market pressure.

$79 more for XP with a new system, VISTA = FREE (3, Interesting)

Proudrooster (580120) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496011)

Of course they are selling more. If you want XP with a new system from one of the PC manufacturers like DELL, it will cost you $79 for XP or you can have VISTA for FREE!

I don't know anyone in my circle that has purchased VISTA. Personally, I am holding off for about (3) years until all the DRM and hardware issues are all worked out. I can't see any compelling reason to move to VISTA and if I do buy a new system with it pre-loaded for FREE, I will move that system to dual boot Linux/XP.

Yes, pre-installed. (1)

General Wesc (59919) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496051)

Sure it's selling like hotcakes, pre-installed. People buy new computers and then pay me to uninstall Vista and replace it with XP. I wasn't working in the industry when XP came out, but I don't think this was occurring so much back then. I'm sure someone here hasbeen paid to downgrade to 98, but was this the norm in the early days of XP?

Re:Yes, pre-installed. (1)

Shados (741919) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496141)

Oh hell yes it was. Actualy, I bet you it was -worse-. Win2k and WinXP didn't play DOS games, and at the time XP came out, a LOT of games still required 98. I had to do it soooooooooooooo many times, it wasn't funny @.@

Want to know how they are doing this?? (5, Interesting)

tgatliff (311583) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496067)

I guarantee you that this was planned, and they are stuffing their product chain to provide these numbers. Basically for anyone who does not understand the process, it simply means that when they stock vendors, they are counting these items as "sold". This is a very common tactic, and was exactly what they did with the Zune... Meaning they have a history of using this manipulation tactic...

Seeing as they did not say they were NOT doing this, I can assure you that they are. Dont believe me? Well, lets see when their quarterly report comes out... I will bet almost anything that it will be uneventful... :-)

How many were cancelled, returned, unfulfilled? (1)

Foofoobar (318279) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496101)

Of those people ordering the upgrade, alot are still waiting for it and don't actually have their upgrade yet. Does that really count as a sale? Also, I have to wonder how many returns have actually been subtracted from those numbers and pre-sales figures to pump up those numbers... especially when they are having to discount VISTA to get people to buy it when driver support isn't there, software support isn't there and VISTA still has mysterious stalls, crashes and slow downs.

Microsoft's Marketing Engine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18496131)

Of course they have recorded large numbers of sales for Vista. If you attempt to order license packs from any reseller, they no longer offer XP. You are forced to purchase the Vista license for approximately 80$ more. Of course, you can still legally run XP with that license, but you are not given the choice of XP vs. Vista. It's a clever scheme to artificially inflate their numbers.

Try it - call up CDW/PC Connection/ etc and attempt to buy a 50 pack of XP for your business. They get to record Vista sales whether you actually intend to run it or not.

good times. I heart those guys. Thanks for adding even more to my TCO.

Why Upgrade when you can take the Souped-Up XP? (4, Insightful)

Rachel Lucid (964267) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496169)

My Dad's new 'Vista-Ready' machine came with XP, and we're KEEPING it on XP precisely because this this thing is a graphical dream on it. It's got an nVidia card, sweet processors, ability to support two 22" widescreen monitors... all for under $1000, because it's 'merely' an XP machine, albeit a Vista-capable one.

If this is their idea of 'Vista-Capable', why would I want to go to an operating system where these awesome specs are merely ADEQUATE?

C'mon now (1)

The Bungi (221687) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496187)

(Just a coincidence the announcement came out a day after this community's speculation, surely.)

I realize that "this community" like any other has a need for self-worth, but was this petty, self-important comment necessary at all?

If 96 million PCs are going to be sold in 2007, I'm pretty sure 95 million of them (or thereabouts) will have Vista installed. It's called inertia (if nothing else), and it's very difficult to stop. Ina few years, maybe. Not today though.

And? (1)

no-body (127863) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496287)

doesn't change that Vista sucks!

I haven't tweaked it, and I refuse to, voluntarily - so that's mostly out of the box:
  • Up error in file browser to move one directory level up is missing. Only previous arrow seems to work.
  • Accessing network shares takes ages, if they come up at all - probably needs to read every file encountered on the way to display it's content on mouseover.
  • Opening muliple tabs in IE _forces_ you to open another window, if it comes from another domain = counterproductive to tabbing.
  • Apparently still no desktop pager for multiple desktops (virtual dimension is obligatory to get anything done).
  • Attaches gazillion of hidden attributes to files so they still think they are on my desktop even if they are on a network share.
  • Defragging a drive tells you it can take hours and has not progress bar.
  • Not even starting about the admin permission crap - that's deeply abusive!

I hate having to work this monster!

Hate it more! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18496561)

I hate it more.

See, Virtualized Registry. Any small application that edits registry taking into effect failures when run in non-Admin accounts, (eg. open HKEY_LOCAL_COMPUTER/Software/). But with great virtualization, LOCAL_COMPUTER/Software/ key will open for writing under unprivileged user! But it is not a real key so you are fsked.

Adding a manifest to the .exe (what a great idea with manifests!) doesn't seem to fix it either, even though MSDN states otherwise.

And cygwin doesn't work at all for the similar reasons (virtualized file system!! FSCK!!! FSCK**100**100!!)

And even the great Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 DOES NOT work properly either and not recommended to use it under Vista! MS recommends it only be run with elevated privileges, if at all!!!!

See, I hate it more. SO much more! So much in fact that now I'm going to be using QEMU+KVM in Linux to run all versions of Windows, even Vista. I'll only keep a native copy of Vista installed to test user interfaces.

Vista is just currently unusable for development.

While big corporates like Shell.... (1)

jkrise (535370) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496311)

have just started migrating their NT4.0 servers to Win2K.... thousands of them. One of my nephews is doing the troublesome mailbox migration, sitting in Bangalore.

I think MS counts corporate adoption through their so-called "Enterprise Service Agreements" as fresh sales... unless Corporates decide to junk all their existing hardware and invest in huge bloated pigs, Vista will not tak off. The barriers for Linux in the enterprise are crumbling day by day....

I say Linux adoption is happening at much more than twice the pace compared to the XP launch. And the pace is increasing day by day.

I've also heard... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18496353)

...that they're offering $1200 for any copy you can find on store shelves.

Misread: (1)

313373_bot (766001) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496375)

MS Says Vista Selling At Twice XP's Price

Of course that is not true, but Windows surely feels more expensive (but not necessarily a better value) each new version. I know people will point out that each new version includes more "free" stuff - browser, media player, cd-burning, DRM infection... - and also that hardware is proportionally cheaper nowadays, so the so called Windows tax is a bigger chunk of your new PC's price. What I would really like to see is a good economic analysis taking into account the factors above, inflation, OEM price vs. consumer price, etc, and answering once and for all, how much should Windows really cost? I do feel it is a ripoff but, how much?

Bundling Vista with ALL new PCs is ridiculous (4, Interesting)

GFree (853379) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496411)

Not all new PCs are capable of running Vista with anything even remotely close to decent performance.

A couple of weeks ago I got my mum a fairly low-end notebook (1.73GHz, 512MB RAM, 40GB HD). Since she's not exactly much of a power user and only wanted to browse the web, extract pics from her camera and occasionally check her email, her needs were easy to satisfy with a cheaper computer. Only problem was, this notebook (like EVERY SINGLE ONE in the store) was pre-installed with Vista. I figured, hey, if they're running Vista on a brand-new PC then surely the manufacturer had chosen a decent configuration to ensure decent performance. Damn I was so naive.

It was slow to boot, slow to shutdown/hibernate, slow to run programs on, full of useless pre-installed crap (e.g. Norton with 30-day subscription). After Vista did some weird shit that caused this new PC to hang with massive non-stop disk accessing, I decided to blow Vista entirely away and stick an old copy of XP with Service Pack 2 on instead. Now, the system is faster to start, faster to shutdown/hibernate, faster to launch software, it has only the software it needs with no crap lying around after an uninstall, much more responsive, plus I freed about 8 GB of a hidden recovery partition. All in all, it was a win for us with absolutely no disadvantages and a shitload of positives. In the future I might even be tempted to install Ubuntu instead, but I won't push my luck just yet. :)

This shouldn't be particularly surprising I suppose, but I mention it because I was totally shocked how quickly and ruthlessly the manufacturers were in totally abandoning a perfectly-working OS like XP, and sticking Vista as their default setup on hardware that shouldn't have been running it to begin with. It really astounded me just how useful the system was... *without* Vista.

Re:Bundling Vista with ALL new PCs is ridiculous (0, Troll)

jocknerd (29758) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496495)

You must not like your mom. Why didn't you just get her a MacBook? Show her some love.

This may be a shock, but... (1)

Kozz (7764) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496669)

There are some of us who can count on one hand the number of hours we've operated any kind of Apple/Mac. I've spent nearly all my days in environments EXCEPT Mac. DOS, Windows in all its forms, *nix, *bsd. Could I support my mom at ALL if she got a Mac? Nope. Not a whit. Of course, I wouldn't want to support any kind of *nix, despite my familiarity. Just sayin'.

Of course because you can't hardly buy XP! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18496431)

So as a Microsoft partner I couldn't sell XP starting in December. By January the big box retail places like Offce Depot took XP off the shelves. If you wanted to buy a new laptop retail the only choice was HP and Toshiba. Sony and everyone else pulled the XP machines. Online retailers are the only places to get XP now.

It's mighty inconvenient actually.

yeah, but at what cost? (1)

itsmilesdavis (985700) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496437)

How many of those new licenses came from the sale of a new computer? People buy a new dell/hp/etc. computer and why wouldn't they spend the extra $$ dollars to upgrade to a newer, and therefore, 'better' OS. One that will last longer than an outdated model?

Umm... (1)

Viceroy Potatohead (954845) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496439)

This really seems like a fine example of Chocolate Rations are Up... [online-literature.com] (more to the point: see chocorat. [1984live.com] )

Okay, since XP sold 17M in the first two months, I'll assume (maybe not accurately) that the Jan sales were roughly 8M.

FROM TFA:

Silver estimates PC makers sold between 12 million and 15 million PCs with Windows XP Home Edition over the holidays -- a significant chunk of the 20 million total, depending on how many included Vista coupons.

While Microsoft wouldn't say how many Vista upgrades were ordered in that time frame, Dell Inc. spokesman Bob Kaufman said about two-thirds of its holiday PC shoppers registered for the upgrade.


Assuming that estimate is remotely accurate, take the most optimistic number (we don't know what the sales before the holiday season were, but to be especially fair, I'll assume 0): 12M Jan sales of Vista.

So, since the market was roughly half the size in 2001, this translates, in equal market size, to Vista selling only three-quarters as well in Jan as XP did six years ago (less actually, since there are many more PCs in homes available to upgrade (2x,3x,4x... as many???)).

It's sad to think (1)

th3rmite (938737) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496449)

It's sad to think that I'm included in one of thosee numbers even though my copy of Vista will never be installed. The upgrade came with a Toshiba notebook I bought just to wipe of Media Center and install Ubuntu. With the newest version of Flash for *nix (yes, sad to say my killer app was Flash) I have absolutely no reason to ever touch a MS OS again. Anyone want to buy a Vista Upgrade?

Re:It's sad to think (1)

asayuu (1080507) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496571)

agreed

My VISTA capable desktop runs Linux/Gnome/Beryl (1)

earthforce_1 (454968) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496521)

And the eye candy utterly blows Vista or the Mac OSX out of the water! My stepson has a Vista laptop and he was most impressed by the translucent desktop cube with 3D windows. It isn't just pretty, it is quite practical as well, as you can actually see what is happening on the other desktops at a glance. The price was certainly right, and there is DRM or restrictive EULAs to boot!

sales hype of course. (1)

3seas (184403) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496555)

Vista sales are clearly not doing so well.

But its no supprise that the MS marking is trying to generate a bandwagon trend.

Seriously, with more and more large government organization picking up linux and other things advancing with linux, there is a market loss for MS. Apple moved with the flow to go with intel based CPUs and a change in its OS at the core towards a unix base.

MS days are numbered and they know it. But they don't really know how to deal with it as their business methodology that made MS successful is now not working and they are to big and had worked to hard for their reputation to change it.

Today Linux is plenty capable of doing most of what most consumers want. And the drive is heading towards business.
Its really a matter of key applications being made available on linux or mac.

What can Vista do that my Linux box can't? (4, Informative)

hacker (14635) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496585)

Can it open ODF, Lotus, WordPerfect, etc. formats natively within its own OS or office applications?

No

Does it support writing to PDF natively?

No

Can it natively play all of my media audio and video formats, including FLAC, Ogg Vorbis, Theora and others?

No

Does it support onboard IM clients using standards-compliant protocols (Jabber? irc? Others?)

No

Can I use freely available tools to build software on it, and do those tools come with the OS itself?

No

Can I read multiple filesystems at the same time on multiple different external and internal media? Linux, Solaris, Mac OS X and other filesystems?

No

Can I mount NFS shares to other non-Vista resources with existing, included applications/tools?

No

Remind me again what Vista does that my Linux box can't? Oh wait... purty jellybean graphics and melted-crayon menus and icons. Right.

No thanks, Linux does more, on less resources, at less cost, and is more extensible, secure and updates are MUCH easier to manage.. oh, and I KNOW what's running under the covers, and if I don't, I can go look and see for myself.

All Sales "Count" Regardless of Channel (1)

iq-9 (1080505) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496639)

I'm amused by all this discussion surrounding whether the sales "count". If you have a commercial software product to sell and you have the drive, tenacity, aptitude, and wherewithal to get it bundled with every PC in the world, then you are a more effective marketer than your competition and you absolutely deserve those sales. This is called "Capitalism". It makes the world go 'round. It's the reason we have these wonderful things called PC's sitting in front of us. It's the reason you have the music you love, your favorite foods, your house, your car/motorcycle/skateboard, and a global internet. It's the reason you have a paycheck every week so you can provide for your family and lead a positive and productive life. In the free-market democracies of the world, everyone has the same opportunities as everyone else. If you want to smash Microsoft to bits, write a business plan, pitch it to the bank, borrow money, form a company, make it the most kick-ass software company in the world, and smash Mr. Softee to smithereens. Put a suit on and go pitch your fancy new Linux dist to the CEO of HP. Stop complaining and get off your ass. A lot of sales and marketing legwork, i.e., cost, goes into selling your product through these channels: building trust, forming relationships over the course of many years, and setting up partnerships. It's not as if MS waves a wand and their new OS appears at the Dell factory. I am not saying that MS isn't now a monopolistic, bully of a company with some questionable business habits, but the fact remains that Microsoft worked hard to be number one. It took decades of work from countless bright and dedicated individuals. Lil' Billy had a vision and ran with it. You can do the same.

Bose doesn't get robbed of sales numbers for all of the speakers they have bundled in Acura's. They still count toward their sales. Bose worked hard and incurred cost to secure those relationships.

The grocery store down the street isn't denied income because he gave a bushel of apples to the corner store to unload for him. After 10 years of being neighbors, the corner store guy trusts the grocer. He has a partnership with him. They are capitalizing together - because they are free to do so.

All sales "count" regardless of the channel by which they arrive.

I am one of those (3, Insightful)

kbahey (102895) | more than 7 years ago | (#18496673)

I bought a Toshiba laptop late November, which came with XP on it, with a free upgrade to Vista (with $25 for shipping).

The disk was immediately resized, and Kubuntu 6.10 Edgy Eft [baheyeldin.com] was installed on it. Windows XP was never even booted, but kept there "just in case it is needed".

For the free upgrade, I did all the paperwork for it, paid the shipping fee, and have not received it yet. I don't intend to boot it either, but I ordered it "just in case".

So, I am counted as an XP user and a Vista user, while I am neither.
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