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Is KDE 4.0 the Holy Grail of Desktops?

CmdrTaco posted more than 7 years ago | from the what-does-that-make-gnome-then dept.

511

An anonymous reader writes "With KDE 4.0 being expected some time this year, expectation runs high in the linux/unix users camp and the media read a lot between the lines of what the KDE developers say and do. In some ways KDE will provide a standard as to how a desktop should look and behave. This interesting article wonders whether KDE 4.0 will become the complete desktop which will meet the needs of a wide cross section of computer users. One of the common complaints that some Linux users have over KDE is that it is too cluttered. And by addressing this need without putting off the power users, the KDE developers could make it an all in one Desktop. Keep in mind that KDE 4.0 is based on Qt 4.0 and so can be easily ported to Windows and other OSes too which makes this thought doubly relevant."

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Of course not (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528489)

Vista will be superior, ALWAYS

Why? (2, Interesting)

gravesb (967413) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528497)

Why would you run another desktop on top of Windows? Wouldn't you take a performance hit for running two desktops, in essence?

Re:Why? (5, Informative)

0racle (667029) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528541)

You can pass a switch to disable explorer as a shell. That is why things like LiteStep are called Shell Replacements.

Re:Why? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528953)

Cool. Now we can ask Dell for windows boxes running KDE :-)

Explorer is just a shell (3, Interesting)

brunes69 (86786) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528593)

Ever since Windows 3.1, and even today, you do not have to run "Explorer" as your desktop.

A lot of people don't realize this, but the whole of the windows "desktop" - the task bar, the icons, the menus, the right click on the desktop, all runs under a single instance of the "explorer" process.

Via the registry you can change your shell to anything - including the old progman.exe from Windows 3.1 if you have it lying around (heck it even shipped with Windows until Windows 2000). I have switched my shell to Afterstep many times.

There is no logical reason you couldn't switch to KDE as your desktop environment after it had all been ported to windows. It would not have any kind of a built-in performance hit.

Re:Explorer is just a shell (4, Informative)

Constantine XVI (880691) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528715)

Program Manager shipped through XP SP1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_Manager

Re:Explorer is just a shell (4, Interesting)

jhfry (829244) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528737)

I worked for a company that ran Outlook as it's shell. Every user logged in and had their mail, calendar, and shortcuts for word, excel, and a couple of internal apps in the sidebar. At first I thought it was nuts, but it was a well managed network, and it worked really well actually.

Mind you, this was a relatively long time ago... Win 95 or 98 era if I remember correctly... when you could change your shell just by editing a line in your system.ini.

Re:Explorer is just a shell (5, Funny)

saskboy (600063) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528921)

You realize what you've done right? You've encouraged geeks everywhere to switch their XP to Windows 3.1 desktops for the day! I would, if I could find the "ding..ding..ding" noise to go with it.

Re:Why? (4, Insightful)

ookabooka (731013) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528623)

Why would you run another desktop on top of Windows? Wouldn't you take a performance hit for running two desktops, in essence?

Say you want to transition your office or whatever to use all Linux and OSS. You can get them used to open office, but they still be a bit put off when you make them switch to KDE. This way they can get used to "linux" while still having access to their favorite windows apps. I think it'd be a great idea for preparing people for a transition.

Re:Why? (0)

gravesb (967413) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528661)

If you disable explorer.exe, do you still have access to all of the WIN32 API? Is there a one to one correspondance to KDE's windowing environment, or will Windows apps call on the wrong library when trying to initiate?

Re:Why? (4, Informative)

Constantine XVI (880691) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528767)

Yes, everything still works. If you've tried blackbox for windows, GeOShell, or Litestep, you'll notice everything still works. What would KDE make different about that? It's not like it goes off and assinates MFC and SWF.NET to replace them with libqt

Re:Why? (4, Informative)

BobPaul (710574) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528963)

The WIN32 API is basically just a collection of library files (dlls) in the c:\windows\* folders. Not running explorer doesn't effect that. You'd just have a different program to organize your desktop, launch applications, etc. Programs access the Win32 API by making calls into those DLLs. As long as you don't delete the DLLs, your API is still there. You'd loose explorer specific functionality--ie, things like adding WinRAR to your context menu--might not work if whoever compiled KDE for Windows didn't ensure that part worked, but it won't prevent any of your individual applications from running and working with each other.

Of course, if you're using KDE on Windows as a migration step towards KDE on Linux, once you move to Linux the WIN32 API disappears along with the windows apps.

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528971)

If you disable explorer.exe, do you still have access to all of the WIN32 API?

It's not like you're deleting explorer.exe (I hope).

Re:Why? (3, Insightful)

fldc (167665) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528647)

It's not about running a whole new DE, it's about running KDE applications on other platforms.

Re:Why? (2, Insightful)

Eideewt (603267) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528667)

It would be nice for people who are stuck on Windows to have a more functional desktop available.

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528693)

The KDE desktop is not going to be ported too Windows or Mac, simply the applications.

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528891)

The KDE desktop is just another application. Odds are, once the core functions are up and running on Windows, the desktop part will just work.

Re:Why? (1)

Ilgaz (86384) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528903)

The KDE desktop is not going to be ported too Windows or Mac, simply the applications.
It can have "halo" effect so the ordinary users who happens to love couple of Applications may want to see KDE in its own environment. Even OS X users. I guess there won't be need of X11 true?

Re:Why? (1)

Doctor Crumb (737936) | more than 7 years ago | (#18529055)

KDE 4.0 is a set of libraries, which can be ported. KWin and KDesktop *could* be ported to windows, but there's not much point, as you said. The actual reason that KDE4 will kick ass is because applications that use the kde4 libraries will be portable. These include Kopete, KMail, Amarok, and various other apps that I miss greatly when using windows (or OSX, as KDE4 is portable to that as well).

Re:Why? (1)

Richard Steiner (1585) | more than 7 years ago | (#18529077)

No, you wouldn't, since you would be replacing the old desktop with the new one.

I used to do this with Windows 95 -- I replaced the default Explorer shell with a third-party product called QuickMenu 4.

This was helpful when I lent my machines out for LAN parties, as I could password-protect individual icons, I could also create a multi-page desktop and password-protect those pages that I didn't want people to play with.

That let me create a LAN Party Menu (in essence) that folks couldn't easily escape. :-)

Clutter and appearance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528523)

To conquer the world... er... desktop they'll need to smooth out the theme a bit, and simplify -- which FTA seems to support. I'm all for unifying the desktop to some extent, further bridging the gap between Gnome and KDE. Lets face it, when you use a computer you have never touched before, you kinda expect things to work similarly and for widgets to be in more or less similar places.

And it has to be pretty, can't forget pretty.. lol

Juvenile 'K' Naming Jokes? Holy Grail? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528533)

You have a desktop whose developers still think it is cute to play idiotic naming games with the letter K.

The KDE Kiddies should grow the fuck up if the want to be taken seriously in the grown up world of polished commercial desktops and application market.

Re:Juvenile 'K' Naming Jokes? Holy Grail? (2, Funny)

b0xii (904500) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528603)

I kAgree.

Re:Juvenile 'K' Naming Jokes? Holy Grail? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528605)

by Anonymous Koward on Thursday March 29, @10:08AM (#18528533)


Fixed.

Re:Juvenile 'K' Naming Jokes? Holy Grail? (1)

jimjamjoh (207342) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528673)

It's ironic that you swear in the process of advising upon how to be taken seriously, in that your argument is subject to being automatically adjudged wanting for it's (unnecessary) inclusion of a low-grade shock tactic.

Please, bestow more sagacity upon us, I know I'm primed to receive after your first offering...

Re:Juvenile 'K' Naming Jokes? Holy Grail? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528823)

> Please, bestow more sagacity upon us, I know I'm primed to receive after your first offering...

Alright. *UNZIP*

Re:Juvenile 'K' Naming Jokes? Holy Grail? (5, Insightful)

cyclop (780354) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528981)

[sarcasm mode on]

Right! They should behave like the serious folks in Microsoft calling everything with the full beautiful "Windows" before the app name instead of a little "K": Windows Mail, Windows Firewall, Windows Media Player. Or Apple, using a slick, minuscule "i" instead of a boasting "K": iPod, iTunes, etc. True, big companies really HAVE grown the fuck up!

[sarcasm mode off]

Let's Get Serios (-1, Troll)

Luscious868 (679143) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528543)

Wake me up when you can copy and paste between applications as you can in Windows or on the Mac. Until issues like that are fixed, KDE will continue to be a second class citizen when it comes to Desktop environments.

Re:Let's Get Serios (3, Insightful)

dj_tla (1048764) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528595)

I'm not quite sure what the parent is talking about... Highlight some text, go to another app and press the middle mouse button, and presto, copying has occurred. Am I missing something?

Re:Let's Get Serios (2, Informative)

skiflyer (716312) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528669)

Yes, you are. Though since I haven't used Linux as a desktop OS in awhile, I'm not sure if it's still an issue. Basically for a long time Linux had two different clipboards, some apps used one, some apps used another. So while what you describe worked 95% of the time, 5% of the time the two apps couldn't talk to each other via clipboard.

Re:Let's Get Serios (2, Informative)

cyclop (780354) | more than 7 years ago | (#18529033)

As a current Linux user that mixes everyday Gnome, KDE, and desktop-agnostic apps at home and work, I can assure you the "clipboard hell" issue has been fixed long ago.

Re:Let's Get Serios (1)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528705)

I can't imagine either. I just finished copy/paste-ing from a Windows VM in VMWare under Kubuntu to Kate, something I wasn't even sure was going to work. I copy/paste between any application I choose all the time, and the ONLY time I've had issues is when I'm running Windows as the native OS and try to paste into an app running across the network via cygwin.

I suppose that's why he's marked Troll so quickly.

Re:Let's Get Serios (3, Insightful)

BlueTrin (683373) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528757)

He means a copy paste functionality ala COM/Windows. Where you can copy and paste from any browser windows then paste it into any email client/word processor and keep the format. Or it can translate the data depending of the COM filter ..

It is quite nifty in an office environment to copy paste a screenshot, the content of a browser window, application data ... etc

You see, alot of people whose job is not IT related need these kind of functionalities ... as they/we spend our whole life using computers only as tools not for development issues ... I am not working in programming anymore and my only issue with a comp that I have at the office is that it can sends emails, cut time spent in my daily tasks, and in my job, Windows is, for now, better suited for that.

I am not a pro-windows guy nor a MS employee, refrain from modding me from what I stated above, which is only my own and personal opinion, and, you are, of course, allowed to disagree with me.

Interesting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528987)

How any comment that even hints at criticizing Linux is usually post scripted with something like -

I am not a pro-windows guy nor a MS employee, refrain from modding me from what I stated above, which is only my own and personal opinion, and, you are, of course, allowed to disagree with me.

Re:Let's Get Serios (1)

rhavenn (97211) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528657)

Seriously. You can. CTRL-C and CTRL-V works just fine. Plus, you can normally just highlight and then middle-mouse click which is faster and *gasp* Windows doesn't do this. Think outside of the box?

Re:Let's Get Serios (3, Informative)

Dr.Merkwurdigeliebe (1055918) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528671)

Pfft - my KDE desktop copies/pastes between all applications on Open Suse and Fedora. Plus, with the Klipper, I can paste things that I copied a while ago. I deem it superior.

Re:Let's Get Serios (1)

Bloggins (783115) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528773)

I think he might want to cut and paste with a highlight, right click, select copy, click on new location, right click, select paste. instead of highlight, and center click to paste.

Re:Let's Get Serios (0, Troll)

jZnat (793348) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528829)

That's a GNOME problem if anything. KDE has something called Klipper for a long time now, and that manages the clipboard between all applications. You can still do X-style copy/pasting via selections and middle-clicking, but Klipper keeps a history of your clipboard and is overall an awesome clipboard manager; better than the default offerings in Windows and OS X by far.

In fact, KDE is far more consistent than GNOME in my experience, and even more consistent than Windows or OS X in some cases.

Easily ported to Windows, huh? (1, Insightful)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528545)

Why hasn't it been done, then?

The only thing that's "easy" is for non-programmers to say "well this toolkit is released for multiple OS's so it must be easy to port!"

Let me know when you got that working, k?

Re:Easily ported to Windows, huh? (5, Informative)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528579)

Why hasn't it been done, then?

Because QT 3 isn't available under GPL for Windows or Mac, while QT 4 is. Next question?

Re:Easily ported to Windows, huh? (-1, Troll)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528591)

Then its just a recompile, because Windows and all the unixes operate in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY!

Re:Easily ported to Windows, huh? (3, Insightful)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528717)

Then its just a recompile, because Windows and all the unixes operate in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY!

That's mostly true. Aren't good cross-platform toolkits spiffy?

Re:Easily ported to Windows, huh? (4, Informative)

caseih (160668) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528975)

Several KDE 3 apps have already been ported to OS X, such as kwrite as QT3 is available under the GPL on OS X. KDE developers have said that KDE 4 will be portable to other architectures including OS X amd Win32. However this doesn't mean they intend to port port the entire desktop to, say, OS X. Rather the apps themselves will be portable. This is arguably more important than porting the entire desktop. However, Having the KDE desktop replacing explorer on win32 would be wonderful. KDE still won't make Vista any less obnoxious, though. I am looking forward to running great KDE apps like Amarok on my OS X box at some point in the future, though.

In the meantime, Gnome is coming along quite nicely too. Neither gnome nor KDE is the be-all, end-all, last word in desktop environments, though. They both will continue to evolve and develop. More and more cooperation among the two camps through the freedesktop project is happening. Major problems have now been solved, including the clipboard frustrations of years past, drag-and-drop, and removable device handling through dbus. In fact with Qt4, since the glib main event loop can be used, it's becoming possible to mix gtk and qt widgets in the same app, which is handy for plugin developers. Problems yet to be solved include a common theming subsystem, a common virtual filesystem layer (a la kioslaves), and a few other things.

Re:Easily ported to Windows, huh? (1)

caseih (160668) | more than 7 years ago | (#18529019)

Agg! My last post has some of the worst grammar I have ever written. Sorry about the parse errors.

Re:Easily ported to Windows, huh? (1)

autocracy (192714) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528619)

Search Google for "kde windows"

It's not that hard to check before being condescending, k?

Re:Easily ported to Windows, huh? (2)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528687)

POSSIBLE DOESNT MEAN EASY

How is that condescending?

I have asshat managers come to me every day telling me how "easy" it will be to integrate some third party code, or port something to some other OS.

"durr they both use stdlib, right? they're partically teh same thing! it most be vary easy lets git crackin u gots a week"

even trivial java apps aren't necessarily "easy" to get running on more than on OS.

Re:Easily ported to Windows, huh? (1)

cyclop (780354) | more than 7 years ago | (#18529067)

Boy, they are doing it. I've seen a screenshot of SVN Konqueror running under Windows. You can look for it on google.
It's surely not easy, but it's close to working.

It has been done. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528791)

Lookee here, dipshit:http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net/

P. S. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528915)

'dipshit:' is not part of the URL. Wanted to point that out just in case.

Re:Easily ported to Windows, huh? (1)

Constantine XVI (880691) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528805)

As sister posts have mentioned, QT was not GPL on windows til QT4
Also, quite a few chunks of KDE relied on X11, so that was the other issue.

If I can't flip my open windows ... (3, Funny)

LaughingCoder (914424) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528549)

... in 3D like pages in a Rolodex, then I'm not interested. (sarcasm off)

Well... (2, Funny)

logixoul (1046000) | more than 7 years ago | (#18529031)

Good thing you can [kdedevelopers.org] then.

it's good slashdottes never RTFA (5, Insightful)

theStorminMormon (883615) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528557)

Because if they did, they might notice that blog post talks more about Dolphin than anything else, and has virtually nothing to say about whether or not KDE 4.0 is the Holy Grail of desktops.

Hope they get some click-throughs from the traffic though.

Re:it's good slashdotters never RTFA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18529105)

"it's good slashdottes never RTFA"

So are you saying this new-fangled Firehose means we're not blaming the editors anymore?

I propose a compromise: Allow Slashdot's experiment in direct democracy to continue, but we (the /.ers) will blame the editors for the bad headlines & stories that we pick.

Is KDE 4.0 the Holy Grail of Desktops? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528573)

No.

No it isn't.

I was briefly interested, but then I glanced at the screen shot, and nearly vomited from the ugliness.

Re: Is KDE 4.0 the Holy Grail of Desktops? (0, Troll)

ProppaT (557551) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528751)


Someone mod this guy up. Seriously, Linux folk need to get serious about GUI design if they ever want Linux to be taken seriously. THAT was supposed to be the holy grail? Not that I'm an avid Windows supporter, but they've had a better file manager than that for over 10 years now. Apple for even longer. I think that, because the typical Linux user has been using Linux forever and would just as well command line everything, the GUI gets relegated to the back of the line. Even the Linux desktop's that are full of graphical eye candy just miss the usability ball. We want/need less information and simple structure, not more options. Well, not we but that "ambiguous" target that's out there that the Linux crowd thinks they can capture.

Re: Is KDE 4.0 the Holy Grail of Desktops? (1)

Eideewt (603267) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528995)

I think that screenshot was an example of multiple paned views in one window. It's not the configuration a user would normally see.

Re: Is KDE 4.0 the Holy Grail of Desktops? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18529065)

Until Windows gets userspace filesystems it can't really be taken seriously in the file management department. Linux has had it for years, OS X recently got it, but Windows shows no signs of ever getting it.

Re: Is KDE 4.0 the Holy Grail of Desktops? (1)

cyclop (780354) | more than 7 years ago | (#18529117)

You are trolling. I've seen no file manager that is easier to use, richer of features and slick as a GUI as Konqueror, for example. Wake me up when the Windows file manager has tabs for example (maybe Vista has, I don't know: but Konqueror had that for ages). Or split view activable by clicking a button. Or text editor and word processor integration.

When I started using Linux, after years and years of Windows, I almost screamed at how good was Konqueror. I think it's one of my Linux "killer apps". And still when rarely forced to use Windows at work I scream at not having that file manager available. It will be nice to have Konqueror at work on the Windows machines, with KDE 4.

yea,,,, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528577)

finally I can use a windows box with a different gui, thus negating that iky feeling when I use a win box... I like my centos box quite nicely running gnome.

Re:yea,,,, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528781)

finally I can use a windows box with a different gui, thus negating that iky feeling when I use a win box...

Yes, [sourceforge.net] finally! [netevil.org]

Seriously, explorer is bloatware and there are no shortage of replacements. The only good thing about KDE4 on Windows will be KOffice ;-)

Can we wait until it's even close to out first? (4, Insightful)

petabyte (238821) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528635)

Ok, I recently switched from Gnome to KDE 3.5 and really have no plans to go back, but saying something which isn't even close to finished is "most-bestest" would seem to be jumping the gun.

I'm sure we can find as many blog entries about how Vista is most-bestest, or Gnome, or Xfce. Of those, I'd only ever buy the Xfce argument but to each their own.

Was that article meant as sarcasm? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528637)

Just take a look at the ugly cluttered mess in the screenshot and tell me the article's author isn't being sarcastic.

Thank god for fluxbox and multi-aterm.

Re:Was that article meant as sarcasm? (1)

quadelirus (694946) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528723)

I think he said that the "screenshot" is 3 different screenshots in the same image. I'm reading it and it doesn't seem to be sarcastic (yet).

At least, KDE developers listen (3, Insightful)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528641)

I say that KDE developers at least listen because I have had problems raised and solved by these folks quite fast in the past. For more information, one could visit http://bugs.kde.org/ [kde.org] . My "quarrel" so far has been why they will not have 1 (one) toolbar for Konqueror like Firefox. This one issue has got lots of mention but these folks still expect the distros to cleanup KDE, which they rarely do.

I also hope that this release will make KDE fonts look sharp, crisp and beautiful by default. It is unfortunate that many times, we in the Linux community have to seek Microsoft's help on fonts in order to have a desktop that is a pleasure to look at.

Re:At least, KDE developers listen (3, Informative)

jZnat (793348) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528947)

Have you tried using the DejaVu fonts [sourceforge.net] (a derivative of Bitstream Vera [gnome.org] )? In my opinion, they look far better than the Microsoft core fonts, especially when you use subpixel antialiasing on an LCD screen. They also support a lot more glyphs than Helvet^WArial, Times [New Roman], Courier New, Verdana, and Tahoma.

I haven't really used the new fonts from Vista, however, so those might actually look nicer for all I know.

Also, if you have a copy of OS X, it's always a nice idea to copy all the fonts from /Library/Fonts/ and use Fondu [sourceforge.net] to extract the fonts in the dfont resource fork files. That way you get some nice fonts for printing (from Adobe) and some nice designer fonts as well.

The Holy Grail of Desktops? (4, Insightful)

brennanw (5761) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528653)

Hardly.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm a huge fan of KDE. KDE is the project that made me think "yes, I will eventually be able to learn to use Linux" -- that was back in its 1.0 days. Now I use Linux full time (I still consider myself a beginner though). KDE is a good desktop -- it's knaming konventions are a klittle kstrange, but it's still a good desktop that makes basic Linux use a lot easier while not actually preventing you from getting into the guts of everything. It's my desktop of choice (I use Kubuntu).

But the Holy Grail of Desktops? There is no such beast, and there are too many opinions about what such a beast would be. There are too many people who want too many different things in their desktop. For my part, I want to see some desktop incorporate all the OO elements from OS/2's Workplace Shell... I've yet to see it happen. That's my "Holy Grail," and I expect if it were ever implemented it would be anathema to someone else.

The very thought that it might be able to "meet the needs of a wide cross section of computer users" would automatically make it fail in the eyes of some. I know and have spoken with some usability nuts who claim that there is One True Path to usability, and anyone who wants to do things differently is simply doing things WRONG, and that they need to learn the One True Path and experience how much better it is. "Acommodation" would be a design flaw from that perspective.

All that aside, I'm looking forward to KDE 4. One thing I've come to expect from the KDE developers is that everytime they release a new version of KDE I wind up liking the new version significantly more than the older version, and I think that's the most realistic expectation you can hope to have about software...

Re:The Holy Grail of Desktops? (4, Funny)

rueger (210566) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528873)

I know and have spoken with some usability nuts who claim that there is One True Path to usability, and anyone who wants to do things differently is simply doing things WRONG, and that they need to learn the One True Path and experience how much better it is.

Hmmm... would they possibly be people whose platform of choice begins with an "A" and ends with an "E", and which has "PPL" somewhere in the middle?

Re:The Holy Grail of Desktops? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18529107)

I think you got the "ends with an 'E'" and the number of letters correct...

Windowmaker (3, Insightful)

eric76 (679787) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528719)

As far as I'm concerned, the perfect desktop is Windowmaker.

I use it on OpenBSd and Linux and it works nearly perfect.

I still don't know (5, Funny)

CmdrGravy (645153) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528727)

I think I must have got the wrong article from that link. The one I read said that there may be a replacement for Konqueror called Dolphin but that Konqueror would still be available if people wanted it.

Was the one about KDE Being The Holy Grail Of The Modern Desktop anymore interesting ?

fvwm, tkdesk (0, Offtopic)

srobert (4099) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528729)

Maybe when I get a newer faster computer, but for now I'm sticking with fvwm and tkdesk.

Re:fvwm, tkdesk (1)

Verunks (1000826) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528949)

it's time to change your 486

They don't get it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528741)

...or maybe I don't?

They talk about how they want to basically include two file managers - the cluttered yet powerful Konqueror for power users AND the simpler yet still powerful Dolphin for everyone else, and then go on to say...

"Indeed if this trend is duplicated across other KDE applications, KDE 4.0 could very well end up as the holy grail of Desktops."

Different users with different needs is the problem here, and they need to solve it somehow. Are they suggesting that there should be two text editors, two video players, two web browsers, etc? Why not just keep saying "KDE is not for you" to those who don't like it?

Basically, they can't come up with a solution for everyone and want to include more options and more confusion, and THAT is the "Holy Grail" of desktops?

Re:They don't get it... (3, Informative)

brennanw (5761) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528833)

What I don't understand is why they're saying Dolphin and Konqueror are the same thing.

Konqueror started out as a file manager, true, but KDE tacked on web browsing to it and then spent most of the time developing that aspect of it -- now it's really more of a web browser that does file management too, rather than a file manager on steroids.

With Dolphin they appear to have recognized this and are creating an application to focus on what Konqueror was originally intended to do in the first place. This isn't exactly the same as creating a beginner's app and a power-user's app...

what-does-that-make-gnome-then (5, Funny)

richdun (672214) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528745)

what-does-that-make-gnome-then

The Holy Hand Grenade

I prefer Gnome (3, Insightful)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528789)

KDE looks so tinker-toy with all its icons and crap.

Though, they both seem to have issues with me customizing them. Yeah, it's possible, but the options I want are always hidden in some gconfedit.cf.conf.1.3 bullcrap file somewhere.

I don't want a new window every time I click a folder. I like to store my files heirarchically, and nest directories. I don't see how this makes me a bad person. Don't bury the option to turn that shit off. It was annoying in Windows 3.1, it's just as annoying on a linux box.

And KDE really needs a "lite" checkbox somewhere, to turn off all the bling blang for those of who choose not to "keeps it real".

I've got a few suggestions... (0, Flamebait)

JAB Creations (999510) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528795)

1.) If developers wants the everyday non-savvy users to use Linux then as a professional web developer I shouldn't have to even think of messing with the console just to install a Firefox nightly build. I don't care how much power is in the console I'm not using it and regular computer users sure as hell aren't. Point: get a unified installer system setup. Hell OSX is based on Unix (just like Linux) and it has a "drag the icon from here to there" installer. Why doesn't Linux (ANY flavor of it for that matter) have something ANYTHING along those lines? 2.) Don't use the crappy AC97 onboard audio in place of my Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Platinum audio card... and then give me no GUI option to switch from the onboard (no-3D audio btw) audio device. 3.) Keys need to work include Win+D, CTRL+ESC, ALT+TAB, CTRL+ALT+DEL, among many others. Xandros gains credit in my eyes for at least saying, "Hey, we know since 99% of the frigin world is stuck on Windows we thought it'd be cool to let you use those same keyboard controls". 4.) Call your control panel a control panel, or at least use the words preferences, settings, or something exceptionally obvious instead of just plain "YAST". If I'm a non-savvy user YAST sounds like spyware. 5.) If you debate me don't use your family who have all been learning Linux ANYWAY and aren't considered the typical non-savvy computer user. 6.) Stop using virtual memory by force. Sure it's a safety belt to some degree such as with web servers but I have yet to see any program that say, "Oh crap, using the hard drive as memory, maybe I should say something". And don't give me the "Well it doesn't need to be in memory" crap argument because if it doesn't need to be in memory then DON'T FRIGIN LOAD IT. Kudos thought to Linux for running on really old hardware. 7.) Stop turning my hard drive in to swiss cheese. One drive one partition. 8.) Make Konqueror's GUI a little easier to use by allowing icons to be dragged instead of the extremely confusing separate CAGE layout where I can't move an icon all the way to one side because it's locked up on another. Firefox's GUI has the potential to be good (it's default settings just aren't any good for the non-savvy). Kudos though for it doing pretty good on the CSS3 selectors test... http://www.css3.info/selectors-test/ [css3.info] Don't get me wrong, Linux is great and all but for as long as it's been around you'd think someone would have fixed these problems by now. I'm sticking with XP for now though for now I give Xandros the most credit thus far. Hey, at least they have made an honest attempt with their Windows EXE installer even though it did not work with a Firefox nightly build, kudos for making it to begin with.

And one back at you ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18529005)

It's called paragraphs.

Re:I've got a few suggestions... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18529085)

Not bad list of complaints.

The solution for the onboard sound card is not to install the driver for it. If you build your own kernel, very easy. If not, find the driver in /lib/modules/`uname -r`/kernel/... and rename it.

As for virtual memory, I have 512MB RAM and no swap partition or swap file. The kernel will simply page out all those excessive library code pages back where they came from until it needs them again.

One drive, one partition is possible, but it is recommended to have one for / and one for /home so you can format / when upgrading from CD.

Finally.....! (5, Funny)

UPZ (947916) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528809)

This will be the year of Linux Desktop!!!!

yawrrrrrr!

Re:Finally.....! (1)

Andrewkov (140579) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528941)

Again? I've been hearing that this is the year of the Linux desktop since 1996!

Re:Finally.....! (1)

Viper Daimao (911947) | more than 7 years ago | (#18529025)

for exceptionally large values of 'year'

Of course KDE is the holy grail (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528815)

Any desktop that is free of smelly feet is automatically the holy grail.

KDE doesn't stand a chance until.... (2, Interesting)

InsaneProcessor (869563) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528845)

Until KDE exhibits the following:

1. standardized operation for ALL applicatation.
2. cut and paste between ALL applications..
3. Applications must ALL be uniform in operation of common functions..
4. Uniform operation of input devices (mouse)..
5. Easily customizable..
6. Standardized behavour on any local or remote environment..
7. Some kind of direct video support (games, etc...).

And, don't tell me that these are all true. I have to use a linux GUI desktop and KDE is the best choice but lacks all of the above.

Re:KDE doesn't stand a chance until.... (3, Informative)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 7 years ago | (#18529101)

So you're saying that merely doing everything Windows does it not enough, it's got to be MUCH better.

1. standardized operation for ALL applicatation.
Windows doesn't. At all. Even MS apps aren't all the same, especially between generations.

2. cut and paste between ALL applications.
KDE does this. See a thread above.

3. Applications must ALL be uniform in operation of common functions..
I assume you mean dialog boxes. Windows doesn't guarantee it, and neither does KDE. It provides the same (and more) functionality that Windows does, though.

4. Uniform operation of input devices (mouse)..
Dunno what you mean here... Seems pretty uniform to me. (Heck, X/KDE even assumes every mouse only has 2 buttons. How much more uniform can you get?)

5. Easily customizable..
You might have something here... Too bad KDE is MUCH more customizeable than Windows, especially straight out of the box.

6. Standardized behavour on any local or remote environment..
Windows can't even touch this one.

7. Some kind of direct video support (games, etc...).
Windows doesn't do this. It provides an API for it through a non-essential set of libraries. (DirectX) Everything has OpenGL, so this point is moot.

Unless you were talking about Apple's interface... But why KDE would rule the market by only beating Apple, which doesn't rule the market, is byond me.

New low (1, Insightful)

Rumagent (86695) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528851)

TFA:"From the above statement, I have inferred two things namely"

I too have inferred two things namely:
1) You are an idiot.
2) Whoever submitted this is an idiot.

Oh Not Again (2, Insightful)

asphaltjesus (978804) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528853)

I'm actually a daily KDE user, so this isn't a rant.

I want linux to succeed as much as the next kde user but articles like this just set everyone's expectations way too high. There are issues that don't have much to do with KDE, but because that's what the average user sees, they may blame it on KDE. It's the ages-old hardware issues. Printers is still an issue for home users.

Beyond that, there are glaring holes in some of the applications. (print selection for example)

My personal wish is that some of the kde projects would focus on specific types of users. For example, I bet Law Office users have some needs that outlook doesn't do well instead of being a medium-slow follower. No, I'm not talking about an "exchange killer" because trying to eat a big part of exchanges market isn't likely. (not impossible, not likely)

Is KDE 4.0 the Holy Grail of Desktops? (-1, Flamebait)

Enoch Root (57473) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528855)

No.

Next question.

The Screnshot in the Article (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18528931)

Is retardedly cluttered. If that's what KDE calls cleaning up, I'd hate to see what they consider busy. As long as KDE continues to look and behave as a second-rate Windows 9x, I'm staying the fuck away.

Yes, but. . . (4, Funny)

Limburgher (523006) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528959)

. . .does it run on Emacs?

KDE the holy something (1)

baomike (143457) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528973)

Especially if you use fvwm2.

Then there is the g thingy.

NB: Desktop wars can be just as much fun a editor wars. vi fan.

Power != clutter (5, Insightful)

The_Wilschon (782534) | more than 7 years ago | (#18528979)

One of the common complaints that some Linux users have over KDE is that it is too cluttered. And by addressing this need without putting off the power users,
Don't conflate power users with clutter users. Some power users like the clutter, but many want the cleanest interface possible (without sacrificing any power, hence the name "power" users...). For instance, you see a fair number of power users running things like fluxbox, ratpoison, and evilwm instead of the window managers from KDE or Gnome.

Konqueror (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18529001)

I have a few small problems with KDE's present file manager. TFA was very short on details, and TFS is entirely misleading. The article is about a new file manager called Dolphin, not about KDE at all.

Konqueror problems: Like Windows Explorer, it wants to be a web browser. I don't want it to be a web browser; I have Firefox for that! Firefox is far, far superior as a web browser.

More importantly, Konqueror, like some damned Microsaoft application, wants to do things its way and won't remember my way. Like Windows Explorer it wants to give me icons. I don't want icons; I want a detailed list with time stamps, etc. But it won't remember that I told it that; the next time I open it it's back to the same damned defaults.

If Dolphin overcomes these two behaviors I percieve as being bugs (even though the designers surely think of them as features) it will supplant Konqueror on my desktop.

Too bad TFA was so lame.

more like GAYDE (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18529021)

amiright?

Co3k (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18529027)

of its co8e [goat.cx]

Damn KDE Fanboys (-1, Troll)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | more than 7 years ago | (#18529039)

Damn KDE fanboys! KDE will provide a standard for how something should poorly integrate with 90% of the apps available on the host OS and supply its own set of productivity apps managed by the same project, much like Microsoft supplying Office and Notepad and IE and Explorer and Windows Media Player; except KDE's major apps are broken (example: as someone with a Microsoft Office Word Expert cert, ABIWord feels most comfortable; OpenOffice Writer is annoying with its formatting and such dialogs in odd places; and KWord was lacking basic functionality last I looked, it didn't even want to take line spacing in pts). I could nitpick technical issues like how they use C++ and how compiled object oriented languages totally destroy CPU branch prediction and C++ itself adds tons of vague linkage and excess symbols (making the programs load slower; KDE has a server that forks copies of itself and becomes the KDE app, or something.. kdeinit, it's meant to do the same basic job as prelink but without altering executables); but I'll just say that I find XFCE and Gnome to have much nicer and cleaner environments. IceWM could become quite nice itself if anyone wanted to bring it up like XFCE or GNOME.

Decent Sub-Pixel Font Rendering? (2, Interesting)

dbcooper_nz (782764) | more than 7 years ago | (#18529043)

It sure won't be the ultimate desktop without this. I use ubuntu (I know, gnome based) a lot, but the font rendering in linux drives me nuts.

BTW, cleartype costs about US$1 to licence per desktop.

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