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The Elite's Sour Side

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the everything-has-a-balance dept.

XBox (Games) 94

Now that the news about Microsoft's Elite has had a chance to set in, there are a few objections being raised by commentators. That 120 gig hard drive (the really expensive one) is going to come pre-loaded with content; all well and good, but the content transfer cable and software is a bit odd. Additionally, there are serious objections being raised over the frustrations of early adopters. Despite the easy dismissal out of hand heard on Major Nelson's Wednesday podcast, it's not as easy for early 360 buyers to roll with the changes. "Current Xbox 360 owners, who can purchase a separate 120-gigabyte hard drive at a cost of $179, appear to be getting a raw deal. Not only are these early adopters stuck with an older model of the console that offers less in the way of high-definition support, but factor in the cost of a current premium Xbox 360 ($399) and the price of the larger hard drive and the figure is close to $600 dollars, far exceeding the Elite's retail price, due to be $479."

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Nothing says you 3 your customers (0)

faloi (738831) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533575)

Like making sure they regret buying your product when they did.

Re:Nothing says you 3 your customers (1)

voice_of_all_reason (926702) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533667)

Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas

Re:Nothing says you 3 your customers (3, Funny)

paeanblack (191171) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533749)

Like making sure they regret buying your product when they did.

Yeah, because nobody could have predicted electronics to get better/faster/cheaper over the past year and a half.

Re:Nothing says you 3 your customers (4, Interesting)

nschubach (922175) | more than 7 years ago | (#18537603)

That's why people buy consoles instead of computers. These things are supposed to be a constant. Microsoft more than Sony or Nintendo (but Sony has it's multi-SKUs as well) are trying to warp the console business into an evolving world like PC gaming. The reason console games are as bug free (mostly) is that they are in a controlled environment. They don't have to worry about branch code for different hardware. Evolving your console is possibly the worst thing you could do. Developers than have to determine the correct system and plan for it. Even a difference like the Core/Premium XBox360 and one version not having a hard drive is a BIG mistake in terms of consoles. Twenty vs. Sixty Gig drives doesn't really matter all that much. You likely not going to use all that space, but you don't have to check if the hard drive exists and run different caching code.

Re:Nothing says you 3 your customers (1)

theStorminMormon (883615) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533783)

Come on, look at the competition. Sony? Sony doesn't just spurn their customers, they hunt down their few remaining fanbois and rip out their eyes. Sony has done a lot to ensure that even if MS sold empty Elite cases they would *still* not look like the bad guys in the market.

I mean really, compared to Sony there's not much MS can do to look bad.

Re:Nothing says you 3 your customers (1)

Wornstrom (920197) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534171)

more like =3 O-:
that is my teabag emoticon for the uninitiated...

I am kind of pissed that I bought the premium, and NOW they are coming out w/ an HDMI version. How about another adapter to convert the existing premium systems output to HDMI? I swear, between the external HD-DVD drive, and the extra fans that conveniently clip on the back, my 360 is getting more and more Frankenstein by the day... WTT Xbox 360 premium for PS3, PST!!! I will even throw in my games...

Re:Nothing says you 3 your customers (0, Troll)

Goaway (82658) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534239)

Nothing says "intelligent argument" like a laboured attempt at vulgar ASCII art.

And then an verbal explanation of said ASCII art.

Re:Nothing says you 3 your customers (1)

wolrahnaes (632574) | more than 7 years ago | (#18538375)

How about another adapter to convert the existing premium systems output to HDMI?
Yup...converting that analog-only output to digital sure has a point. There's a rumor going around that Microsoft would actually make such a thing and I think it's extremely absurd. No matter what plugs in to your TV, it's still coming out of the Xbox as analog so why the hell does it matter? These things if produced will be expensive (sampling HD video from analog and then encrypting it in real time won't come cheap) and will deliver absolutely no benefit.

Price Drop (1)

aphxtwn (702841) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533633)

Isn't this another way of announcing a price drop? That's happened before. Probably sweetens the deal and improves their positioning against the Wii and PS3.

Early Adopters? (3, Interesting)

Conception (212279) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533689)

So, the system has been out for like 1.5 years... The "Early Adopter" phase has come and gone. I picked one up last April and I wasn't an early adopter -then-. People are just being whiny.

Re:Early Adopters? (4, Insightful)

dan828 (753380) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533757)

Seriously. For just about every piece of electronics gear that I've ever bought, the company I bought it from came out with a better model at a different price point after a while. What is there to bitch about here?

Re:Early Adopters? (1)

Mattsson (105422) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534881)

Partly, the bitching is about that they keep changing the specs.
This is a game-console. Game-consoles biggest (only?) advantage over gaming-PC's is that they're non-moving targets for developers.
Yesterday, develpers could simply assume that everyone with console-x had hardware-x.
Consumers could assume that any game for console-x would run on their console-x, since it was the same machine no matter which year they bought it. I can buy a PS2 today and run any game from 2000 on it and run any game from 2007 on my ps2 from 2002.
Now, MS and Sony are eroding this advantage by having different versions of their consoles at launch-date and even more by changing the specs of the systems after launch.
One wonders if we'll be able to run any game from 2012 on a core XB360 of today...

Re:Early Adopters? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18535135)

Name a situation where a game would REQUIRE an extra 80GB of disk space and HDMI? Guess what, it's not gonna happen. Nobody's gonna get left out in the cold.

Re:Early Adopters? (2)

Mattsson (105422) | more than 7 years ago | (#18535881)

Maybe not with the Elite vs Premium, but I can think of many situations where a game might not run on the Core.
My point was, if people have to check the hardware-requirements before buying a console-game, they might as well run games on their PCs instead.

And I don't put it beyond MS to release a Ultimate-edition a year o two from now, maybe with more RAM or something.
It seems like just the kind of stupid thing they'd do...

Re:Early Adopters? (1)

nschubach (922175) | more than 7 years ago | (#18537643)

if (hdmi_exist) init(1080, 'progressive'); elseif (component_exist) init(720, 'progressive'); elseif (analog_only) init(480, 'interlaced');

Re:Early Adopters? (1)

Endo13 (1000782) | more than 7 years ago | (#18537999)

Partly, the bitching is about that they keep changing the specs.
This is a game-console. Game-consoles biggest (only?) advantage over gaming-PC's is that they're non-moving targets for developers.
Yes, that's the primary advantage for developers, but most consumers don't know or care about that. For consumers, the advantage of a gaming console instead of a PC is that you just buy your gear, plug all your shit together, and (as long as you got it all hooked up right) you just pop in your game and play. No need to worry about drivers, no need to worry about having a fast enough CPU/video card/RAM, etc. That and the capability to set up a console and have 4 people playing on the same machine.

And I seriously doubt that MS (or Sony) would be stupid enough to make a newer version of a console so different from the first version that games could not feasibly be made compatible with all versions of the console.

Re:Early Adopters? (1)

Seumas (6865) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533793)

early adopters stuck with an older model of the console that offers less in the way of high-definition support
That is a ridiculous statement. In what way is the non-Elite XBOX systems offering less support for high definition? Simply because they didn't come with an asstastic HDMI cable?!

Re:Early Adopters? (1)

amuro98 (461673) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534205)

Well... The old 360s don't have an HDMI port, for one thing. Not all TVs will support 1080p via their component or VGA inputs, for another.

That said, the only things for the 360 that actually support 1080p would be HD-DVD movies (after you buy the $200 add-on drive) and like 1 or 2 game titles. I don't even think the downloaded video content you can buy from the Xbox Live Marketplace supports 1080p.

Re:Early Adopters? (1)

Seumas (6865) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534531)

There is no content on the 360 to justify the need for 1080p, though (as you pointed out). There are no 1080p games and if there were, that would also mean gaming at 30fps. There are no movies on xbox live in 1080p (and if there were, I sure as hell wouldn't pay for movies from xbox live anyway). And I'm sure not going to buy an XBOX HD-DVD drive when I could just buy a better quality HD/BlueRay player - and that is the only device that I care about connecting via HDMI (presuming I truly can't run 1080p over component, which I am not entirely sure is necessary).

I think the statement made in the article had to have been made by someone uninformed who just assumes "dur.. HDMI good - must have for HD because it has HD in the name!". So the article's claim that the old 360 somehow doesn't support HD as much is ridiculous. With regard to the available content for the XBOX, it supports everything it has to offer.

I'm still waiting for 300 to come out on Blueray though. As soon as it's out, I will finally feel that my home entertainment center was a perfect investment. :D

Re:Early Adopters? (1)

Lane.exe (672783) | more than 7 years ago | (#18546923)

I don't know about any others, but Armored Core 4 for the 360 will do 1080p. Of course, my TV only does up to 1080i, so I don't particularly care about it, but if I had a 1080p TV that wouldn't accept a 1080p signal over component I'd probably be pissed about this.

Re:Early Adopters? (1)

LordNimon (85072) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534355)

Mod the parent up. As far as I'm concerned, an early adopter is someone who bought his Xbox 360 in 2005.

ok, so... (4, Insightful)

User 956 (568564) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533701)

Current Xbox 360 owners, who can purchase a separate 120-gigabyte hard drive at a cost of $179, appear to be getting a raw deal. Not only are these early adopters stuck with an older model of the console

So do the same complaints apply to Apple, when they release a new revision of the ipod every 12 months? What about Dell, when they release a new computer?

Are these people completely unfamiliar with the concept of purchasing goods and services?

Does Ford owe you a coupon because the new Taurus comes with more trunk space, which your year-old model lacks? Give me a break.

Pricing strategy (1)

SethraLavode (910814) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534319)

My understanding is that they priced the new hard drive based on the cost difference between the Elite and the Core package. $300 Core 360 + $179 120GB HD = $479 Elite 360. Ignoring the fact that they're not truly equal, it at least makes some sense.

It's not entirely fair, though, to claim that people who bought the Premium 360 are getting totally screwed, since after they've shelled out their $579 (not $600!), they've got two hard drives. ($400 Premium 360 + $179 120GB HD = $479 Elite 360 + $100 20GB HD).

The pricing is, at least, consistant.

Re:Pricing strategy (1)

LordNimon (85072) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534485)

Not only that, but used 20GB Xbox 360 hard drives are going for $50 on eBay, so if you sell your hard drive, your real cost for the new hard drive is $130.

Re:Pricing strategy (1)

Perseid (660451) | more than 7 years ago | (#18535455)

They may be NOW, but when the 120GB drive hits the streets it won't be $50 anymore. Heck, this may even be good news for those who bought a core and are on the lookout for a cheap 20GB.

Re:ok, so... (1)

earnest murderer (888716) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534863)

Never-mind that the comparison is really inappropriate since the model compared already comes with a drive. If you want an honest comparison you must compare it to the core model which, surprisingly, is only 179 dollars less than the "elite" and lacks other features. Of course the content of a legitimate thoughtful comparison doesn't generate the page views that a fallacious one does.

This kind of story (I'll not call it journalism) is offensive at it's core. Mostly because it's purpose isn't to convey a message or information but rather to get people to read and click ad's. Just like the story about the movie site the other day automating the invite process... Important security issue at hand, but the writer didn't care about that because it doesn't generate the page views that a fallacious story about spam does.

Re:ok, so... (1)

k_187 (61692) | more than 7 years ago | (#18536083)

Indeed, if you don't have a 360 and want one with a HD AND want the bigger one its stupid not to buy the elite. If you've already got a premium, things are a little muddier. Personally, I'd wait until the HDMI port comes standard on all 3.

Re:ok, so... (1, Insightful)

The-Bus (138060) | more than 7 years ago | (#18535423)

That's a terrible comparison. There's been a market agreement that as consoles age, there needs to be a price drop OR an improvement in the console, with improvements in the console (new NES design, Neo Geo CDZ, slim PS2, Nintendo's handhelds) usually coming much later in the console's life cycle, many times after there's been a price drop.

The problem here is that now Microsoft is actually making the PS3 look like a fantastic deal. The Elite is $20 less than the (now rare) 20GB PS3, which for those $20 more offers a Blu-Ray player. At the very extreme end of the comparison, you'd need an Elite ($479), an HD DVD player ($199), a USB card reader ($10), and the Xbox 360 Wifi dongle ($99) to emulate the $599 PS3. The PS3 owner could buy a game, another controller, and upgrade their hard drive to 250GB or more at the same price.

Spring after the first full calendar year of release is also the traditional time for price drops. Those are nowhere to be found.

And there's going to be another version of the Xbox when the new 65nm process comes in.

Microsoft, technically is not doing anything immoral. It's not even unethical. But what they're doing is creating distrust and dismay among its current customers. Why do you think Sony ran so many ads for the PS3 in 2006? It wasn't to advertise it. Everyone who was in the market for a console knew the PS3 was coming. They spent millions of dollars to make their current customers feel good about their purchase. Hey, you spent $700 to play an FPS and a port of an old Xbox 360 game. But don't worry, here's commercials showing how cool and hip you are.

I heard, at some point, that the Elite would lose its black color in a few months and go down to a $399 price and the current premium model would replace the core. This makes sense, but I don't know if its true.

To finalize my point, in your comment you refer to Ford. Last I checked, the only Ford models for sale now at 50% of the 2000 pricing are used models. Sony's silver PS2 is the equivalent of Ford cosmetically updating a 2000 Ford Taurus and offering it new at a price of $8,500.

Re:ok, so... (1)

mrchaotica (681592) | more than 7 years ago | (#18535981)

But what they're doing is creating distrust and dismay among its current customers.

Easy solution: stop being Microsoft's customer! Some of us figured this out long ago; I don't know why the rest of you from doing so too...

Re:ok, so... (1)

mrchaotica (681592) | more than 7 years ago | (#18536055)

I don't know why the rest of you from doing so too...

Damnit! Nothing like mixing two completely different sentences together. That should have either read "I don't know why the rest of you can't do it too" or "I don't know what keeps the rest of you from doing so too."

Re:ok, so... (1)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 7 years ago | (#18540087)

Maybe because we like games, the XBox is good at games, and we aren't all fanatics who share your opinion.

I'm guessing here, of course, but I'm willing to bet I've nailed it.

Re:ok, so... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18538165)

You forgot in the 360 bundle you mentioned they include an HDMI cable ($50 value acccording to Sony) and a remote ($25 value according to Sony). Plus no gamer or HD videophile uses wi-fi (especially not the asstastic one built into the PS3). Oh and you forgot to include the cost of a butler to constantly reconnect your controller to the PS3 because it loses its sync every five minutes (he can also reconnect the HDMI cable every time a game switches resolution). Also, you forgot tranquilizers to make you believe that the slow ass loading times and stuttering framerates aren't present. Then you might have something comparable to your 360 bundle.

Re:ok, so... (1)

Hott of the World (537284) | more than 7 years ago | (#18540069)

I love the FUD.

HDMI cables? Remotes? Cheaper than 10 bucks at most places. Including shipping.

Wifi really depends on the situation and whether or not you can string up a cable to your system or not.

And what the fuck? A butler? Are you high? God forbid you have to press a button when you turn on the system or change games. Other than that, you should never even know the button is there.

Re:ok, so... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18542113)

You missed the point, it's more like the Ford Blah 2007 2.0 comes with what the Ford Blah 2007 1.0 didn't have, and the Ford Blah is the only vehicle Ford makes. So in other words, your analogy doesn't work.

Elite's true sour side.. (3, Funny)

Channard (693317) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533705)

.. is those bloody Thargoids. I don't want to turn on my console only to find myself transported into witch space surrounded by a billon octgonal spaceships. This stinks of sloppy design.

Re:Elite's true sour side.. (1)

revlayle (964221) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534137)

get your finger ready on the ECM and make a run for it!!!!! maybe you'll have enough fuel to the next system!

Re:Elite's true sour side.. (1)

baffo (126216) | more than 7 years ago | (#18540933)

yeah, but it is all your fault. You just <B>had</B> to cursor down while doing a witchspace jump, right?

Early adaptor syndrome (1)

maniac/dev/null (170211) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533787)

I for one would be pissed if I had a 360 and heard about this. I bought the DS right when it came out, and I've felt like an idiot since the DS lite came out.

As it is, this might be a great time to pick up a 360 Premium (or whatever the current 'best' model is) on the cheap. I don't want/need HDMI, as I don't plan on buying a 1080p TV any time soon, and I'll probably never fill the hard drive.

This also might be a ploy by MS to finally get all of the buggy first-run 360's off the shelves. Hopefully the Elite won't have the same drive issues the current ones do.

Re:Early adaptor syndrome (2, Insightful)

aphxtwn (702841) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534107)

I bought a DS fat when it came out (I sold it a few months later, and I just recently picked up a DS lite). As an early adopter, I know I'm getting things before they're refined. Also, I know I might be getting a raw deal because of its newness. The main reason I do buy things before they're proven is to play with brand new stuff. I bought a PS3 shortly after its release knowing about all the issues they've had, just to check it out... and I had to have it sent in for servicing after it died. I also bought a 360 on the day of its release. I'm stuck with a 360 that sounds like an airplane taking off, but *shrugs*. I don't mind being an early adopter, but at the same time I don't expect a brand-spanking-new product to be as polished and as good as the same product a year or two after its initial release.

Re:Early adaptor syndrome (1)

LordNimon (85072) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534265)

I don't understand. You don't need HDMI or the larger hard drive, so you wouldn't have spent the extra $80 to buy the Elite anyway. So why would you be pissed?

I have an Xbox 360, and even though I could use HDMI and the larger hard drive, I'm not pissed. I knew what I was getting when I bought my Xbox 360, and it still works. What is there to get mad about?

Re:Early adaptor syndrome (2, Interesting)

Puff of Logic (895805) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534331)

I for one would be pissed if I had a 360 and heard about this. I bought the DS right when it came out, and I've felt like an idiot since the DS lite came out.
I think as part of the technology/gamer crowd, this is a risk that all of us take. We understand buying a product shortly after release will almost inevitably result in us seeing a faster, slimmer, or cheaper version within a year or so of our purchase. It's the price of having the toy sooner than anyone else. Interestingly, some people take perverse pride in dealing with the inevitable bugs, revisions, and other issues so common to newly released products. It's like techno-masochism.

Of course, the solution is simple: wait a while before buying. Buying a PS2 is a fantastic deal right now, with a cheap price, huge game library, and a console that's mature. Of course, you won't have the new shiny, but you also won't have to worry about a better PS2 coming out. Similarly, the DS Lite is a good buy, and for the same reasons. I bought a Wii, knowing full well that it's right at the beginning of its life and may well be superceded by an more innovative, powerful, or more accurately controlled model within a couple of years. But hell, I'm playing SSX Blur now on it, so I'm okay with that.

Re:Early adaptor syndrome (1)

nbehary (140745) | more than 7 years ago | (#18537079)

"more accurately controlled model"

That's the only oprion I could see them actually adding to the Wii experience that may interest me. I'd think they'd do that by upgrading the Wiimote though. I don't see how the console would need to change (maybe a "real" sensor bar, but the pointing of the Wiimote seems to work pretty well.....)

Re:Early adaptor syndrome (1)

Puff of Logic (895805) | more than 7 years ago | (#18537755)

That's the only oprion I could see them actually adding to the Wii experience that may interest me. I'd think they'd do that by upgrading the Wiimote though. I don't see how the console would need to change (maybe a "real" sensor bar, but the pointing of the Wiimote seems to work pretty well.....)
It will be interesting to see where Nintendo goes with this. I think they understand they've struck gold by introducing a truly novel controller and will probably want to extend that. I'm not sure how much the sensitivity of the Wiimote could be improved given technogical/weight limitations, although this is certainly possible. I'm rather hoping that ankle sensors will be available for DDR-type games, adding further to the potential of the Wii to make us look like idiots at social gatherings. I will also be interested to see whether Sony or MS make an effort to introduce similar controllers and control schemes for their games.

Re:Early adaptor syndrome (1)

nbehary (140745) | more than 7 years ago | (#18538891)

Yeah, I see most of it being innovative ways to use the existing wiimote.....correcting my last comment a bit........that opens the door for possibly needing more than 4 wiimotes.....it may be as easy as a simple software level update to do that, but, it could be a hardware limitation......

And, the wiimote is amazing at what it does now.....I think we're just seeing the start of what developers are able to pull out of it, it may be fine the way it is for a very long time.......

Re: Up to 7 Wiimotes possible... (1)

trdrstv (986999) | more than 7 years ago | (#18547895)

Yeah, I see most of it being innovative ways to use the existing wiimote.....correcting my last comment a bit........that opens the door for possibly needing more than 4 wiimotes.....it may be as easy as a simple software level update to do that, but, it could be a hardware limitation......

Technically you can do 8 players locally now due to the Gamecube ports being active, but as far as Wiimotes there is a technical limitation of 7 as they use Bluetooth to communicate. A Bluetooth network caps at 8 devices, so you would have 7 Wiimotes + the Wii.

Re: Up to 7 Wiimotes possible... (1)

nbehary (140745) | more than 7 years ago | (#18549451)

Didn't know that. So, it probably just would be software to get to 7 at least. Dunno much about bluetooth, the Wii is the first device I've had....would it be possible for them to add the Wii to a second network, say with a USB BT device and double that to 14?

Re: Up to 7 Wiimotes possible... (1)

trdrstv (986999) | more than 7 years ago | (#18549971)

I suppose in theory you could have 2 seperate networks formed and bridge them (never tried it, but I can't think of a reason why it couldn't work) Allowing for 14 devices... but A Wii + 7 remotes @ $40 each... that's a lot of $$$. What purpose did you have in mind for needing more than 7 Wiimotes specifically?

This condisering you could also have 4 Gamecube controllers / wavebirds in addition (for a total of 11 controllers) using the built in hardware of the Wii.

Re: Up to 7 Wiimotes possible... (1)

nbehary (140745) | more than 7 years ago | (#18550119)

True, the more I think about it, I guess what I was thinking could be accomplished a better way. I was thinking using more than one wiimote per person, both hands, legs maybe.......but, thinking about it more, they could do this with attachments to the wiimote, or just completely different controller set ups that are really just one "wiimote" to the wii.......

Re:Early adaptor syndrome (1)

toolie (22684) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534393)

I for one would be pissed if I had a 360 and heard about this. I bought the DS right when it came out, and I've felt like an idiot since the DS lite came out.

Here's a piece of advice: Don't ever buy any type of electronics if you feel like an idiot when it gets upgraded.

Re:Early adaptor syndrome (1)

Chosen Reject (842143) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534983)

I hear you on that one. I have a similar fate. I bought a 99 Toyota Corolla back in the day and now the new ones have more space, are more comfy, and get better gas mileage. I complained to Toyota about it and what did they do? Nothing. I tell you, these companies never help out at all. More recently I bought a new processor and lo and behold a few months later AMD came out with a new one for the same price. Man, I was pissed.

Re:Early adaptor syndrome (1)

AvitarX (172628) | more than 7 years ago | (#18535647)

I am in the same boat.

I got a DS Lite and somebody I know got to play some of the same games for over a year more than me.

In fact even though mine was less bulky he still got to play all the same games as me it just doesn't really feel fair. Shouldn't yours offer a lot less functionality, I had to wait almost 2 years.

The Elite is a robbery (4, Funny)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533857)

I am so mad at Microsoft for improving their product. The existing XBox 360 models are now useless. Sure, they play the same games the same way, but they are now 30% less fun because I know I don't have the best SKU.

mod (1)

Mantooth (991503) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533867)

I modded my old playstation 2 so that i could put in my own hard drive and load burned games onto it.
i wonder how or if you could do the same thing with the 360...

Re:mod (1)

lmnfrs (829146) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534187)

Not currently possible, and much more difficult than it was for the Xbox and the PS2. Advancements and discoveries are made all the time, but don't expect anything like that to ever happen on the 360. We'll be very lucky if it does.

The Beginning of the End? (1, Interesting)

rGauntlet (54921) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533927)

This is what i've been afraid of for the last several years.

Several Years ago, the main reasoning behind buying/owning a console (aside from exclusives) was that consoles are universally consistent, so you don't have to mess with drivers, memory, or any other variance. A Playstation is a Playstation, and if it works on one playstation it should work on all playstations.

As consoles become more "computer-like", and with Microsoft already in their planned obsolence mindset of Windows, they're invalidating this entire argument by releasing significant "upgrades" to their existing platforms. While it seems innocent enough, how long will it be before a game comes out that requires the 120G drive? How long before they start releasing memory upgrades, HDMI upgrades (which they're already talking about), and more? Each time they're creating something new and eventually people will have to upgrade just to stay current, just like with current PC's.

The way I see it, It could go either way:
1) The upgrades become increasingly difficult to ignore (mandatory for new games) requiring people to upgrade, making more $$ for Microsoft (who hopefully is learning that OS design isn't all that profitable anymore) and they slowly convert the XBox into a "Family PC".
2) The upgrades start to drive away consumers as they find their console "too old" to play the latest Halo, and simply walk away.

Re:The Beginning of the End? (2, Interesting)

sqlrob (173498) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534245)

For me, it's #2.

I'm still in the last generation, and each passing misstep makes it more and more unlikely that I'll bother with *any* of the next generation.

Re:The Beginning of the End? (2, Funny)

StikyPad (445176) | more than 7 years ago | (#18537539)

Me too.. I hate things that improve. More of the same for me, please!

Re:The Beginning of the End? (1)

sqlrob (173498) | more than 7 years ago | (#18537577)

Improve? Games that require patching almost immediately, if not immediately, not tested on SD, requires network connections... That's an improvement?

I want a gaming appliance. Buy game, put in, it works. No looking at specs (other than it's for console x), no worries about whether or not the patch server is still up because they went out of business or decided to stop supporting the game. There's plenty of room for improvement without breaking those primary assumptions.

Re:The Beginning of the End? (3, Informative)

Applekid (993327) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534299)

"Each time they're creating something new and eventually people will have to upgrade just to stay current, just like with current PC's."

Upgrades are optional. If you like the same PC games, no need to upgrade your hardware. If you can handle lower resolutions and detail, many new PC games are perfectly playable on non-cutting-edge hardware. If you want it all, though, you want it all. And that costs. No different from anything else in the world.

In the interest of calling a spade a spade:
The NES had "optional" upgrades. These Elite features are optional: nothing more. If there was a "penultimate NES", it would include a Zapper, R.O.B., Action Pad, NES Satellite, and maybe other things I'm forgetting. Remember, that system also sold in different level "trims". Hell, the overwhelming majority of NES titles had additional memory banking hardware in each cartridge to enable the game to access more than 64K of memory.

Genesis: Penultimate would have: Genesis, Master System adapter, Sega CD, 32X.

The N64 came the closest to a "required" upgrade, that 8M memory upgrade that sat right there in front of the cartridge port. Even then, most games didn't need it, let alone used it, and those that did were clearly marked.

In the end, upgrades will have value based on applications. If you want downloadable content and want your games to run better by caching content on the HD, then get a 360 with a HD. If you've got more time than money and can live without demos, forget it. If there ever ARE games that require optional equipment, Microsoft would do well to make sure it's VERY obvious they need it.

Re:The Beginning of the End? (1)

rGauntlet (54921) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534519)

"Each time they're creating something new and eventually people will have to upgrade just to stay current, just like with current PC's."

Upgrades are optional. If you like the same PC games, no need to upgrade your hardware. If you can handle lower resolutions and detail, many new PC games are perfectly playable on non-cutting-edge hardware. If you want it all, though, you want it all. And that costs. No different from anything else in the world.
That's true, so long as the developer is willing to handle it. Developing software that can handle multiple system configurations requires more time and more testing, which means either the development companies eat this increased cost or start raising the price of games to compensate. Then they have to deal with the "Technical Support" aspect of someone with an odd configuration that doesn't work.

I'm not saying upgrades are a Bad Thing, I just think that one of the defining feature of a Console was the static nonupgradable nature of it. You're exchanging the reduced functionality (it plays games, that's about it) for the "promise" of not having to upgrade for 4 or 5 years.

As for comparing it to the Zapper & other peripherals, I would think that a HD upgrade qualifies as more than the previously seen peripheral upgrades.. The closest resemblance would be the 8MB module you mentioned, or the Sega CD upgrade. Neither of those took off, but does Microsoft have the power to change that? I honestly don't know, but i'm pretty sure the XBox 360 has larger penetration than either the Sega or Nintendo systems did at the time.

Re:The Beginning of the End? (1)

Justus (18814) | more than 7 years ago | (#18538087)

The NES had "optional" upgrades. These Elite features are optional: nothing more. If there was a "penultimate NES", it would include a Zapper, R.O.B., Action Pad, NES Satellite, and maybe other things I'm forgetting. Remember, that system also sold in different level "trims". Hell, the overwhelming majority of NES titles had additional memory banking hardware in each cartridge to enable the game to access more than 64K of memory. Genesis: Penultimate would have: Genesis, Master System adapter, Sega CD, 32X.

Why are these "penultimate" versions? Are there some features being left out here and saved for the "ultimate" version or what?

Re:The Beginning of the End? (1)

BarneyL (578636) | more than 7 years ago | (#18545037)

Genesis: Penultimate would have: Genesis, Master System adapter, Sega CD, 32X.
Possibly a bad example as Sega's rapid upgrades to Sega CD, 32X then ditching them in favour of the Saturn and then ditching that in favour of the Dreamcast was widely attributed as the cause of their death as a hardware vendor.

Now I don't think the 360 upgrade is the same (realistically other than Vanguard on the PC how many games need a 20Gb install?) but Microsoft do seem to be trying hard to destroy their image as better value than the PS3 right now.

I can also say for certain that it is hurting their sales, If I could plug in my nice cheap USB hard drive into a core version I would have bought one by now and done just that. As it is the need to buy the console plus hard drive (which is more expensive and has less capacity than the ones I already have) moves the system beyond the cost I'm willing to pay for it.

Re:The Beginning of the End? (2, Informative)

amuro98 (461673) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534493)

Oh please, this isn't the first time something like this has happend, nor is it something unique to Microsoft.

All of the console makers have changed their hardware during their consoles' lifetime. Sony had already released a new model of the PS2 that came with the bundled ethernet adaptor that was CHEAPER than if you had bought an earlier PS2 and the adaptor separately. The monsters!

Still didn't mean that the older games wouldn't work on the newer hardware, or vice versa. It was still a PS2.

It's the same thing here.

No, I honestly don't see Microsoft or anyone else doing something so stupid like releasing a hardware rev mid-cycle that changes the core performance of the box. You aren't going to see a "360+" that comes with more RAM or a faster processor. That would alienate both consumers and developers alike - spelling doom for the console maker.

Supporting HDMI doesn't change the fact that the console STILL works on a SDTV with composite or s-video. Even a non-HDMI 360 will still do 1080p, assuming your TV/monitor can support 1080p via component video or the VGA input.

A larger HDD won't suddenly make games incompatible with older 360s. In fact, Microsoft *REQUIRES* all 360 games to be playable with - OR WITHOUT - the HDD. Granted, it'll be a little difficult to download demos without a HDD but your games will all still work.

Some older PS2 games don't work on the slimline (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 7 years ago | (#18535903)

Sony had already released a new model of the PS2 that came with the bundled ethernet adaptor that was CHEAPER than if you had bought an earlier PS2 and the adaptor separately. The monsters!

Still didn't mean that the older games wouldn't work on the newer hardware, or vice versa. It was still a PS2.

Final Fantasy XI does not work on PlayStation 2 Slimline. Linux does not work on PlayStation 2 Slimline. Even some games that do not use the hard drive do not work on PlayStation 2 Slimline. [playstation.com]

Re:The Beginning of the End? (1)

DeadChobi (740395) | more than 7 years ago | (#18539135)

What was hilarious about the slim PS2 was that you still needed to load the Ethernet drivers onto the memory card to use the port.

Re:The Beginning of the End? (1)

steveo777 (183629) | more than 7 years ago | (#18543579)

A larger HDD won't suddenly make games incompatible with older 360s. In fact, Microsoft *REQUIRES* all 360 games to be playable with - OR WITHOUT - the HDD. Granted, it'll be a little difficult to download demos without a HDD but your games will all still work.


Check out FFXI Online for the 360. Requires the HDD. Sorry, bud, but they're making exceptions all over the place to their original requirements. They've realized that they'll miss out on a huge market share if they don't. You can also take a looksie for Castlevania: Symphony of the Night on their Live! Arcade or whatever it is. It's HDD compatible only. Which violates their Arcade filesize limit of 40MB. MS doesn't seem to care too much about its "Core" owners.

Re:The Beginning of the End? (1)

mrchaotica (681592) | more than 7 years ago | (#18536143)

...and they slowly convert the XBox into a "Family PC".

Note that there would still be a key difference between that and a real PC: it would be locked-down with DRM, require Microsoft's permission to run third-party code, etc. In other words, a disaster.

Then again, it's not as if MS isn't trying to achieve that disaster with real PCs too, by infecting them with Treacherous Computing...

Re:The Beginning of the End? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18541891)

Your absolutely right. A playstation is a playstation except when you get the PS2 slim version and have absolutely no way of playing Final Fantasy XI because you can't attach the HD.

You remember when n64 had a "memory upgrade" and you couldn't play certain games without it? Remember 32x? These were all massive failures from the perspectives of Nintendo and Sega because no one wanted to spend teh extra money and developers weren't really supporting it and since that time M$ and Sony have been really careful in any "upgrades" to hardware of the systems. We've already talked about how HDMI is limited in some capacity compared to component and I really don't see how that and a 120 HD means "massive upgrade". XNA developers have already stated that there will be no change to the code for the HDMI model so in what way possible can anything change?

Not sure why there is so much... (4, Insightful)

bealzabobs_youruncle (971430) | more than 7 years ago | (#18533963)

crying about this? I just bought my 360 like 2.5 weeks ago but this doesn't bother me. The current Premium meets my gaming needs (and has plenty of hard drive space) and my Toshiba HD-DVD player and cable box handles the rest (and tie up both my HDMI ports). It is an option for new Xbox customers and by no means invalidates your current purchase.

This strikes me as more about being obsessed with always having the latest and greatest than a real issue, grow up...

Re:Not sure why there is so much... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18534725)

No mod points here but very insightful.

estimate, or don't (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18542427)

like 2.5 weeks
If you're going to tack on a decimal place, don't use "like". Either you're estimating ("approximately two weeks"), or you're not ("2.5 weeks").

Why can't kids today make up their fucking minds? Why does everything have to be "like" something. Can't it just fucking be something? Commit yourself, dammit! And get off my lawn.

Lessons Learned (4, Interesting)

Applekid (993327) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534029)

Here's what consumers need to learn:
* Products get updated all the time.
The benefits of "buy now" versus "buy later" is the time between now and later in which you will own and enjoy your product. I remember buying Final Fantasy X for $55 and then seeing it in the Greatest Hits bin for $15 a year or two later. If you cry about it and the companies want to make you feel better, they won't do it by releasing something at a medium price like $35 forever, they'll do it by releasing it at the full $55 and never dropping MSRP. (At least those who got the 'tard pack can upgrade to a hard drive for the next difference in the price difference of Core versus Elite. It's not GREAT, but it's not a slap in the face, either.)

* What's top dog now won't be top dog later.
PC gamers have already figured this out. The fact that there are even "generations" of gaming consoles should have taught you this applies in the console world as well.

Here's what console companies need to learn:
* Newer, more premium products need to push existing prices down.
While it makes better sense for your bottom line, your base gets green with envy instead of less green by giving you money. Nintendo figured this one out already.

* Think about upgrade capacity.
Wouldn't it have been neat, instead, if you could take your existing 360 hard drive and piggy-back it to the new hard drive (like a daughterboard) and the drives would automatically move your contents and digital signatures to the new one and restore your old one to factory fresh? When I bought a new cell phone I set my old one to send all my contacts via infra red and set my new one to receive and it was quite nice to get it all done without a whole lot of pain. Nintendo tripped up on this with the WiFi being matched from the DS game to your DS's MAC / serial number, but they got it together on the Wii by using a standard and portable SD card for data transfer.

That said, with the said problems, if the Elite 360 is targeted for holdouts who don't already have a 360, it fails. I don't have a 360 but I've been waiting for lower noise/power consumption 65nm, HD-DVD, bigger HD, and HDMI and Elite represents only 1/2 of that. Oh, plus BLACK. Wee. Here's hoping for a Super Elite come Christmas for $399. ;)

Re:Lessons Learned (1)

hrrY (954980) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534593)

So basically all the early adopters should have to pay for functionalities they should have had since day 1? Sans the 120Gb...the 65nm CPU has more to do with power consumption and heat dissipation which was killing them(XB360's)than it's performance. The HDMI was a spec they had to scrap due to issues dealing with DRM standards and televisions, but was a feature included all the same in MS's marketing scheme when they started their hype machine that snagged the early adopters that are being punished for being "true believers"(see target consumer)and now for that they get the shaft for paying the premium of being an early adopter...sorry but it just seems wrong to me, at least they could offer a swap for a reasonable price, is it more expensive for a company to swap out the faulty SKU or honor a warranty for a product you KNOW is broken and continually lose money manufacturing? I smell a law$uit...

Re:Lessons Learned (1)

Applekid (993327) | more than 7 years ago | (#18535675)

"So basically all the early adopters should have to pay for functionalities they should have had since day 1?"

Should have had? I have a 1 year old TV that can't support more than one HDMI device. Does that mean if I have two HDMI devices then I can be upset that I can't hook both up at the same time when the manufacturer currently makes TVs with more than one port? My first PC was a Packard Bell from 1993, can I be upset that it doesn't run Vista?

You DO realize that technology gets better as time goes on, right? If they could have the yields in 65nm at the time of release and not caused the system to be over a grand, they would have.

Thing is, if Elite wasn't going to come out and there wasn't ever going to be a 360 with HDMI, would you still be foaming at the mouth about how unfair and defective your current console is?

Re:Lessons Learned (1)

feepness (543479) | more than 7 years ago | (#18537253)

Here's what consumers need to learn:

Consumers don't learn things from corporations... corporations learn things from consumers.

Well, the ones that want to stick around anyway.

What about re-authorizing downloaded content? (1)

LordNimon (85072) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534599)

As many Xbox 360 owners know, when you purchase something from Marketplace, it gets authorized to your gamertag and your console (not the hard drive). This means that if you replace the console but keep the hard drive, you'll need to be logged into Xbox Live to use any of that purchased content. Microsoft acknowledges the problem but hasn't provided a convenient solution for everyone yet.

Does anyone know what happens to people who have an Xbox 360, buy the Elite, and transfer the content from the old drive to the new? Does the content get re-authorized? If so, this would be a way for people to replace their broken Xbox 360s and still have all their content work offline.

Re:What about re-authorizing downloaded content? (1)

mrchaotica (681592) | more than 7 years ago | (#18536273)

As many Xbox 360 owners know, when you purchase something from Marketplace, it gets authorized to your gamertag and your console (not the hard drive). This means that if you replace the console but keep the hard drive, you'll need to be logged into Xbox Live to use any of that purchased content. Microsoft acknowledges the problem but hasn't provided a convenient solution for everyone yet.

Sounds to me like those people will learn a hard lesson about the difference between actually owning something (i.e., having full control over it) and thinking that they "own" something when they still require somebody else's permission to use it.

NEWS FLASH! Early Adopters pay more! (1)

TBone (5692) | more than 7 years ago | (#18534615)

Seriously, this is news? People who are early adopters of tech pay more than the people who wait 6-12 months to buy similar tech.

Move along, nothing to see here...

You think *this* is bad? (2, Funny)

Baldrake (776287) | more than 7 years ago | (#18535001)

Just think how bad the early adopters of the PS3 must feel when they see that new models got rid of that annoying backward compatibility feature. Man, those people must be steamed.

Re:You think *this* is bad? (1)

drewmca (611245) | more than 7 years ago | (#18535311)

Backwards compatibility is a last-gen feature.

Re:You think *this* is bad? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18536863)

FUD FTW!

http://faq.eu.playstation.com/bc/bcGames.htm [playstation.com]

That's hardly no backwards compatibility. There's enough to bash Sony without having to resort to FUD, dontcha think?

Using your logic, The XBOX360 has no Backwards compatibility either, right? Cuz it's just in software. Right fanboy?

Re:You think *this* is bad? (1)

beef623 (998368) | more than 7 years ago | (#18537199)

Its nowhere near as big of a problem as people make it out to be, and the list of incompatible games shrinks everytime a new update comes out. Microsoft is just getting scared of the PS3 now that it has finally lauched and started to pick up a little steam. I'm sure the PS3's success with its European launch got them thinking a little bit too.

The Real Raw Deal: Canada (1)

webrunner (108849) | more than 7 years ago | (#18535293)

If Elite comes to Canada (which they probably will) it'll be almost a scam-level bad purchase. You see, the main reason to have the big hard drive is to download video.

But, 99% of the actual video marketplace is not available in Canada.

So we'd be paying $100 basically for an HDMI port and a coat of paint.

What's the big deal? (2, Interesting)

Perseid (660451) | more than 7 years ago | (#18535581)

I have over 2TB of hard drive space on my PC and I am running low on free space, yet the 20GB hard drive on my 360 is more than I will ever need. I download game demos. I picked up the free South Park episode. And I still have 17GB free. 120GB on a 360? Come on. What are you gonna do with that? That's more than the average schmo has on their entire PC.

Re:What's the big deal? (1)

PSXer (854386) | more than 7 years ago | (#18536663)

How exactly do you have 17GB free when the HD only has about 13GB [computeran...ogames.com] available to the user?

Re:What's the big deal? (1)

gamer4Life (803857) | more than 7 years ago | (#18545773)

2TB, wow that's a lot of pr0n.

Elite HDMI version? (2, Interesting)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 7 years ago | (#18535841)

Does the Elite HDMI connection support the HDMI 1.3 spec (wider bit depth for displays)?

Re:Elite HDMI version? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18537371)

It is unclear but before the Sony fanbots pile on- the PS3 doesn't have a 1.3 HDMI port either. It's actually a 1.2A that Sony says will be "just as good" sometime in the future (maybe) with a firmware update. I mean, it's not like Sony hasn't downgraded their announced specs before (e.g. dual hdmi, dual ethernet ports, rumble, FULL backwards compatability, 1080P on games more graphically impressive than Sodoku...).

Why is this modded as informative? (2, Informative)

News for nerds (448130) | more than 7 years ago | (#18539175)

It is unclear but before the Sony fanbots pile on- the PS3 doesn't have a 1.3 HDMI port either. It's actually a 1.2A that Sony says will be "just as good" sometime in the future (maybe) with a firmware update. I mean, it's not like Sony hasn't downgraded their announced specs before (e.g. dual hdmi, dual ethernet ports, rumble, FULL backwards compatability, 1080P on games more graphically impressive than Sodoku...).

Huh? It's HDMI 1.3 and even HDMI Licensing, LLC states PS3 is the first product to feature HDMI 1.3. Stop stupid FUD.

http://www.hdmi.org/press/pr/pr_20061026.asp [hdmi.org]

HDMI LICENSING LAUNCHES HDMI 1.3 WORLD TOUR, AS FIRST PRODUCTS WITH HDMI 1.3 FEATURES HIT THE MARKET

SUNNYVALE, Calif., Oct. 26, 2006 -- HDMI Licensing, LLC, the agent responsible for licensing the High-Definition Multimedia Interface(TM) (HDMI(TM)) specification, next week will kick off a series of briefings and technology demonstrations for media in Asia, the United States and Europe, previewing key technologies enabled by HDMI 1.3.

The demonstrations will preview high-definition (HD) video and audio technology that will begin hitting the consumer market in November and continue rolling out in 2007. According to announcements by manufacturers, among the first consumer products with HDMI 1.3 features to reach the market will be the PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3) from Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. in November, the HD-XA2 HD DVD player from Toshiba America Consumer Products, LLC in December, and the EMP-TW1000, a 3LCD 1080p projector from Epson in December.

"Reports from manufacturers indicate that most Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD players, and a substantial proportion of conventional DVD players, will include HDMI 1.3 capabilities in 2007," said Leslie Chard, president of HDMI Licensing, LLC. "During the first half of 2007 we expect to see HDTVs with HDMI 1.3 functionality, allowing them to display Deep Color(TM)TM content. We also expect the introduction during 2007 of HDMI 1.3 technology for PCs, audio-visual receivers and a range of other source and display devices."

In June 2006, the HDMI Founders announced the HDMI 1.3 specification, the most significant upgrade yet in the interface that has become the de facto standard interface for high-definition devices. HDMI 1.3 more than doubles HDMI's bandwidth and adds support for Deep Color(TM) technology, a broader color space, new digital audio formats, automatic audio/video synching capability ("lip sync"), and an optional smaller connector for use with portable devices such as digital still cameras and camcorders.

HDMI specifications include both mandatory and optional components. As a result, HDMI Licensing encourages consumers to look for the functionality they want the device to support (Deep Color(TM), specific audio formats, etc.), referring to the manufacturer's product information.

The HDMI 1.3 World Tour will offer the first glimpse of key HDMI 1.3 technologies, including Deep Color(TM) and support for new lossless audio formats.

The reason why there is a backlash (2, Interesting)

Rosebud128 (930419) | more than 7 years ago | (#18536349)

Yamauchi (paraphrasing) has said, "What many companies do not understand about the video game business is that the software is the product, not the hardware. People buy the hardware only to get to the software." This solves the mystery as to why people moan and complain of new hardware (or buying more expensive hardware) but they were not complaining at all buying $70 games in the 16-bit generation. The amount of money spent on software totally eclipses what is spent on hardware with multiple $50 (and now $60) products. Just buying four games puts you to $200!

The image of the games industry is that the consoles are the main product with software revolving around it. Rather, it is the other way around. It is no coincidence that people always complain about the hardware (since it drains entertainment dollars they would rather pay for games).

Look at the pattern of outcry:

-PS3 announced at $599
-Multiple versions of Nintendo handhelds.
-GBA dongle thing to listen to headphones.
-Purchasing link cables and additional GBAs to play 'linked' Gamecube games.
-Xbox 360 failure rates
-Purchasing all the Wii controllers (and there are many!).
-16-bit (and earlier) gamers complaining how today's consoles don't come with a bundled game like they used to.

No one likes spending entertainment dollars on hardware (since you cannot play the hardware). Judging from sales results, no one is buying a PS3 or Xbox 360 based on its non-game functions of the hardware. The hardware sales revolve around the software sales instead of the other way around. Video games are about the software experience, not the hardware experience.

Anyone remember the very popular IBM mainframe called the 360? It was released in multiple versions and was structured that someone would buy a cheaper version and upgrade if their needs warranted it. This appears to be exactly what Microsoft intends. But why on Earth is Microsoft following the IBM mainframe model for their living room top box?

(Also, when the Wii launched everyone said it would have multiple versions especially a HD capable Wii in the near future. Yet, ironically, the consoles coming out with multiple versions are the Xbox 360 and the PS3 [who is rumored to have its own elite model coming soon as well].)

We all know the drill (1)

singingjim1 (1070652) | more than 7 years ago | (#18542077)

Yes this is probably redundant, but we all know as electronics consumers that as soon as we plunk down our hard earned plastic, we've just purchased something that is already obsolete. It's the nature of the beast. I'll continue to occasionally play my 360 games the same way I occasionally play my 1st gen XBOX games and I'll eventually be occasionally playing Elite games and reading about how MS is coming out with the "Most Advanced Gaming System Ever Imagined!" and eventually I'll occasionally be playing games on that thing as well. As long as we are still breathing we will be playing on yesterday's technology. Besides, they keep adding inputs to our super duper TVs that will all be obsolete when laser-on-a-chip TVs come out at the end of the year and what do you think all those inputs are for?

Since when ... ? (1)

Doodlepants (646546) | more than 7 years ago | (#18542459)

.. did Slashdot become Pro-Microsoft ? Don't tell me I have to shop elsewhere for my daily Microsoft bashing ? :(

I laugh about all who thought that MS was in the game business NOT to rape you :) *puts anti-xbot flamesuit on* This will probably get me a Flamebait mod, bah, I have Karma left :p

Oh give me a break... (1)

rehtonAesoohC (954490) | more than 7 years ago | (#18543235)

Not only are these early adopters stuck with an older model of the console


Oh come on... There's a reason early adopters are called early adopters. They're the beta testers of released products. In the market of today, you can't buy a product when it's first released and not expect it to be outdated in a year or two. Look at the computer hardware industry for cryin' out loud. "The Elite's Sour Side?" More like "The way hardware sales works."

Xbox 360 is hurting their loyal fans (1)

chubachub33 (1083745) | more than 7 years ago | (#18606957)

I beleive that Microsoft is really sticking it to their loyal XBox 360 fans more than anything. They have been known to always provide current owners the ability to add on anything that is created after the release of the console. That is what I liked so much about Microsoft rather than Sony is that they did't force you to buy a 500 dollar product like PS3. Now out of no where they create a new "elite system" that doesn't allow current console owners the ability to upgrade. Other than the harddrive, which i'd rather buy a cheaper usb one, there is no way that a current console owner will be able to experience the capabilites of HDMI without buying the new console. I thought that the main idea of the console was that you wouldn't have to upgrade, like you did with the PC. I am very fustrated with this, and I am hoping they can find a way to allow 360 pro console owners the ability to experience the advanced audio and video. If they don't I think people will just start going out and buying a PS3 instead because now this new elite version is almost just as much money.
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