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555 comments

I've said this before but .... (3)

taniwha (70410) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548531)

Locking the door after the horse has bolted is always a bad idea .... it just makes the other users of the stable angry.

Leaving the key under the mat is also a bad idea

Letting amateurs implement crypto doesn't work so well either

But the worst mistake is to alienate a whole bunch of smart people who understand locks by selling them horses but not letting them ride them

In the future if you are basing a business on the use of large secret numbers you had better use really big ones .... and maybe not leave them around where people can find them

Bastards! (2)

drenehtsral (29789) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548532)

Yet another geek bullied by lawyers... Luckily many people got down copies of the source when the ruckus started so that it'll live on... Reminds me of ultraHLE... Maybe somebody should fly an airplane over lots of major cities and airdrop CD's with the code on them to all the geeks of the world =:-) Hmm... Seriously though, does anybody know of a good country with no laws or at least no extradition treaty to host this site? Maybe Cuba? Russia? Hmm....

Waste of time (2)

rde (17364) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548533)

Lawyers, I suppose, justify their fees by the number of 'cease-and-desists' they issue. I can think of no other reason for this; there's no point whatsoever in trying to force stuff off the internet.
Of course, if they spammed every internet user with their little threats, they might get as much as 10% of the existing copies off the net. But banned code is like the hydra; cut off one head and two more sitez appear.
Now that it's underground, will we have to refer to it as CZZ?

big deal (2)

MillMan (85400) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548534)

The damage has been done, it can't be stopped, and now the film industry is trying to save face. End of story.

Now I just wish I had the money for a few 30 gig drives...

Don't worry... (0)

timjones (78467) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548535)

I'm sure some of our foreign friends will host it... like other forms of encryption. You can't keep OSS down...not even a pack of lawyers can rip it apart! Tim (first post?)

If the industry is smart... (2)

webslacker (15723) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548536)

They'd hire these guys to work on a new DVD encryption solution. Or even if that's impossible at this point, they'll find some way to make their skills useful to the industry instead of chasing their asses in court.

foreign mirror? (2)

eries (71365) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548537)

Would any of our foreign friends be willing to host a mirror? Perhaps it's time to move the CSS part of the DVD project outside the US. It would still be legal to write code for viewing DVDs that just had a big hole for a "black-box" CSS decryption part, right?

And besides, what does the NSA care about CSS? If it's just the "entertainment industry" & pals, then there's no real danger.

I'd like to know... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548538)

...which movie companies threatened them so I can
send them a nice email explaining just why I'm not going to buy any more of their movies until they stop trying to prevent me watching them on Linux.

Re:Waste of time (1)

color of static (16129) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548540)

No lawyers justify their fees by being quite effective in getting individuals to cease and desist. A company of medium means can hire a lawyer to harass a chain of people around an individuals effort to the point where the individual must either go into great debt or quit. Something needs to be done about this before it shuts down large sections of the open source movement. Maybe we need a IP rights version of the ACLU? I'd contribute to it.

What we need to do, folks... (1)

seebs (15766) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548541)

Is start pushing vendors (say, Linux vendors) and users (especially those of us who own DVD players) to publically come out and say "I would rather be able to play a DVD on a Linux system".

Point out to these people that many of us will buy *more* DVD's if we can use them on our Linux boxes.

Follow the money; if we make the "win condition" be to use an open standard and encourage people to write DVD players, we'll see the DVD industry admit that, maybe, not all users are pirates.

You, too, can contribute: Decapitate one person a week who pirates software or art. ;)

We can still keep it alive... right? (1)

jdwilso2 (90224) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548542)

Hey, comeon people! Like they always say on the X-Files, "the source is out there!" ... They can't stop development on decss, there are too many people who have either the key or the code! We shall prevail, and the tyranny that is shass crumble beneath the power of the nerds!

people are finky about encryption. (0)

sboss (13167) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548543)

People are trying to make money of the "encrypted DVDs" which can be busted (as we all can see) but it is hard to sell to the public if the local twelve year old can copy the damn thing if he wanted to. The problem is not with people reverse engineering the encryption but with people trying to keep encryption safe by using lawyers. More power to ther people who spend the time to reverse engineer the software. Now that they did that the local twelve year old can copy the darn DVDs (or CDs or whatever) and better yet, he can run the movies (or programs) under a real operating system. We all do not fall down and bow to the slave driver called Gates. Some of us can use a computer and can think therefore we use a real operating system.

Maybe we should get rid of the lawyers?

Maybe not, since I will need one now since I voiced an opinion that was not with the majority.

Scott

Scott
C{E,F,O,T}O
sboss dot net
email: scott@sboss.net

I need that source code. (0)

sipan (112591) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548544)

I was lazy and had not downloaded the source code while it was there. Is there any way to get it now? PS. If you are afraid to make it public, my email is sipan@mit.edu

And source is now available at ... ??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548545)

Should have grabbed it before. Where now?

This is absurd! (2)

jd (1658) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548546)

The film industry has more to fear from NOT openly embracing Open Source than from it.

Some of the biggest costs in the film industry come from:

  1. Distribution
  2. Piracy prevention
  3. Advertising & promotion
  4. High-quality special effects

If you embrace an open source ideology, distribution costs are reduced. Why? Because the technology required to mass-produce is being developed far faster by far more people than otherwise possible.

The same is true for piracy prevention. There are far more cryptologists working on and testing Open Source crypto tech than there are in the entire film industry. Result - the film industry can't afford to produce anti-piracy measures that can hope to survive, using proprietary methods. But, if they used an Open Source approach, they'd have protection from pirates comparable to the best protection the US Government can throw at it's most secret information.

Advertising and promotion - which is cooler, a mug with a badly-drawn picture of a character on it, for one movie, or several lines in a CREDITS file in every movie distribution that company makes? Now, which is cheaper, for the company?

Special effects - BMRT blows Renderman away, for the simple reason Renderman doesn't ray-trace. It only simulates. Partly because it's very expensive on the computer to apply raytracing and radiosity to every frame, in high quality. Open Source the frame data, and collaboratively render the CGI. You will end up with infinitely cooler graphics than ANY organisation (with the exception of MS) could EVER pay for out of it's own pockets, and at practically zero monetary cost.

The film industry is destroying itself, in it's efforts to protect itself, through it's choice of protection. Isolation NEVER, EVER works to protect, in the long term.

Removing the source helps? (5)

.pentai. (37595) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548547)

Yes, have him remove the source from his webpage, this will fix everything. After all, it's well known that source code can't simply be downloaded like other files, and can't be copied endlessly throughout the net, or else we'd be in REAL trouble...oh wait, it can.

Anyways, I don't see the trouble, DVD will come to linux/freebsd/beos/whatever else in time as it becomes increasingly popular...though it still kinda pisses me off that those trying to help get crucified by the lawyers (so to speak) over it.

Build it yourself. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548548)

If winmodems and such piss you off so much, then why don't you just bypass the distributors of shoddy merchendise, and build your own computer? Do-it-yourself is part of the essense of the Linux Revolution (tm).

P.S. Only jackasses do that "First Post!" thing.

Screw 'Em! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548549)

It is a done deal. Trying to stop it now would be like trying to nail Jello to the wall. The source is out. Like UltraHLE, you can't put the genie back. Trying to stop copying is ALWAYS a loosing proposition. You put WAY more into trying to stop it than you loose. The tiny percentage who have the technical savy to copy WILL NOT BE STOPPED! There will always be someone who takes up the challenge. Not to sound like Katz, but the net changes everything. Linux has proved that. Cpt_Kirks "To ask permission is to seek denial" - Scott McNealy

It's still out there... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548551)

Do as the author suggested: Search for it on Altavista. It's still available for download from other people. I just downloaded a copy so that I'm sure it'll stay available, in case the pages I found it on should go down.

Re:foreign mirror? (1)

Dr. Sp0ng (24354) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548552)

Would any of our foreign friends be willing to host a mirror? Perhaps it's time to move the CSS part of the DVD project outside the US. It would still be legal to write code for viewing DVDs that just had a big hole for a "black-box" CSS decryption part, right?

Unfortunately, no. Unless the laws have been changed very recently, the US's crypto export laws explicitly forbid software which even has hooks for easy addition of cryptographic code.

That said, CSS hardly qualifies as "strong encryption" anyway, so it'd be legal no matter how you slice it. The real issue here is that these people wrote code (using legal techniques, from what I understand) that uncovered a trade secret that the industry didn't want uncovered (it's legal because they never patented it) and now the industry is scrambling to reclaim their trade secret and stop the damage from being done. However, they're too late.

"Software is like sex- the best is for free"
-Linus Torvalds

Some Legal Analysis (5)

nstrug (1741) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548553)

IANAL but my partner and mother are...

Derek was told that he was in violation of the Copyright, Designs & Patents Act 1988, Sections 296(1) and (2). These sections read:

(1) This section applies where copies of a copyright work are issued to the public, by or with the licence of the copyright owner, in an electronic form which is copy-protected.

(2) The person issuing the copies to the public has the same rights against a person who, knowing or having reason to believe that it will be used to make infringing copies-

(a) makes, imports, sells or lets for hire, offers or exposes for sale or hire, or advertises for sale or hire, any device or means specifically designed or adapted to circumvent the form of copy-protection employed, or

(b) publishes information intended to enable or assist persons to circumvent that form of copy-protection,

as a copyright owner has in respect of an infringement of copyright.

[(2A) Where the copies being issued to the public as mentioned in subsection (1) are copies of a computer program, subsection (2) applies as if for the words "or advertises for sale or hire" there were substituted "advertises for sale or hire or possesses in the course of a business.]

Clearly, the DVD consortium would try to demonstrate breach of copyright under clause 2(b) as Derek has published information intended to enable or assist persons to circumvent that form of copy-protection. The fact that we are NOT using this information to actually copy DVDs is IRRELEVENT, simply publishing the information is, under this statute, equivalent to infringement of copyright.

In my opinion Derek would be found liable by the court as this statute stands. Derek is a scapegoat - the DVD consortium have not gone after others who have worked on cracking CSS because they reside in coutries that do not have such a law on the books. Unfortunately, the UK parliament passed this law (no doubt after considerable lobbying by industry groups) and Derek is a UK resident so they went after him.

EVEN if the DVD Consortium was on shaky legal grounds, the cost in time and money of fighting a copyright infringement case is astronomical and I think most people in Derek's position would have done the same thing.

There is no point in arguing over whether reverse engineering is legal, whether this is a breach of free speech; as the statute stands, publishing details on how to circumvent copyright prevention is itself an infringement of copyright, pure and simple.

Nick

Let's destroy "source" on how to name nukes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548554)

Burn all the nuclear physics books! That way the world will be free of nukes.

The missing conclusion to his statement. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548555)

I will have nothing to do with work on CSS. If there is any work that I may be considered to have ownership of, I give up all rights to that work.

And furthermore, I love big brother.


--

Michael Chisari
mchisari@usa.net

I'll mirror the source, and share with all. (1)

jammer (4062) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548556)

If someone will kindly post a URL to the CSS source (which I foolishly failed to grab when this all started going down), I will publicly mirror it on a decently fast connection, and see how long it takes the lawyers to get on my tail.

If you want to email me privately rather than post here, send mail to fuckthelawyers@devzero.org.

But is this surprising? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548557)

It shouldn't really shock or surprise anyone that the movie industry is trying to stop deCSS. The industry is trying to cover its butt for not making the DVD format very secure in the first place.

It won't work.

Now that it is public knowledge that CSS has been broken, even if deCSS never puts back up the source, other people will pick up where deCSS left off. It is only a matter of time before we can see whatever DVDs we want.

The discovery of DVD keys (and how to break them) won't hurt the movie industry in the long run. Projects like deCSS now face a similar situation as what the MP3 music format faces- MP3 will hurt music, says RIAA, so they try to discourage it. MP3 has not hurt music sales, no matter how much RIAA tries to say it has. The same argument was used for regular VCRs, blank audio tapes, etc.

The arguments did not work then, and they certainly won't stop us here.

It *isn't* too late (for film companies) (1)

dexev (106608) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548558)

If the CSS/DVD community had a mature, fully working product, I'd agree with the "locking the barn door..." sentiments, but it's not. What the DVD people and their lawyers are doing is trying to scare off any serious developers from working on CSS. And it's working. Simple fact: most people who would be interested in developing and using FREE (beer and speech) DVD players don't have the money to fight the teams of lawyers that are being sicced on them. The same thing happened with the 8Hz MP3 decoder. The corporations that are making the money off of digital media don't WANT to go to court. As long as the legal status of DVD/MP3 is the least bit murky, they have the advantage. Once they get into court, they either win or lose BIG.

Here is the letter from the lawyers, studios (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548559)

just your typical cease and desist, after the fact, http://perso.libertysurf.fr/dvdutils/mpaa.htm

Re:Free the Code! (2)

jd (1658) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548560)

A tarball of the entire DVD tree from LiVid, as of 6th November, was posted over on Technocrat.net by Bruce Perens, I believe. The tarball includes the whole of DeCSS as of that time, in it.

Re:It's still out there... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548561)

Ooh, you're right -- second link...

Re:Mirror Site (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548562)

If you wish to archive this information, try here [noeltner.de].

It WAS outside the US!!! (3)

nstrug (1741) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548563)

Derek Fawcus, the author of css-auth lives in the UK and Jon Johansen, who had DeCSS on his site, lives in Norway. Both had lawyers set on them. Both have taken their sites down.

Nick

drool, drool, rant, spew, drool (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548565)

Raise the Red Banner, etc., etc.

Re:Don't worry... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548566)

Good point. Anyone got a shell in say Tuvalu? South America? Hey, i know, .aq! (Look it up ;) ) Must be some out there that`ll host it :)

No one ever answers "What country has no IP law?" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548567)

Seriously though, does anybody know of a good country with no laws or at least no extradition treaty to host this site? Maybe Cuba? Russia? Hmm....

This question comes up time and time again. NO ONE ever seems to answer it. It's always ignored. Maybe the lawyers reach is omnipresent. Maybe no country wants the bad PR of harboring pirate sites. But I'll hazard a guess at an answer. Taiwan. Son May records, a big record/CD maker, located in taiwan, has been cranking out pirated copies of copyrighted CDs, LDs, and CDROMS for as long as I can remember. This is legal because apparently, Taiwan has no IP law or treaty on IP law with other nations. Hong Kong used to be a pirate haven, but I'm no longer sure since China's running theing s there now.

We need a good OSS legal organization (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548568)

The OSS community really needs a good legal fund to help out with stuff like this. Maybe even a organization with contacts for OSS savy lawyers. I just can't stand these DVD sh*t heads pushing those guys around when its largely their lack of forsight which allowed the crack. Now that these guys have realized that they made a big oops, they send in the legal staff to fix it. Another good reason for a OSS legal group is to prove and extend the validity of GPL in court. I'm not familier with very much law, but I certianly would contribute to such an organization.

-Peri peri@logorrhea.com

A Solution (1)

slag187 (70401) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548569)

What I would like to see happen is a group of the big name Linux vendors (Since they have money) get together and pay for the lawyers that it would take to fight these guys.

Red Hat, Caldera, VA Linux - Those are three big companies that ought to think about footing the bill to protect this stuff. What's good for Linux in general will be good for all of them. The Linux community is about working together, why not work together here?

There are a few emerging technologies that Linux needs if it is going to be a big success outside of servers and embeded systems. USB is one, DVD is probably another. (We've got a good start on USB which will probably be stable and real usable by 2.4) It looks like DVD is emerging as a technology that will be widely adopted. Without it, Linux will be a weak platform for desktop users.

There are lots of desktop computers out there, lets not give up on them. (Give me an excuse to buy a DVD player :))

I wish (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548570)

I have the code, I just wish I had a place to put it. Anyone?

This is seriously daft: the pirates cracked it too (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548571)

Do the DVD consortium truely believe that if a few guys can crack it in their spare time and make the source available that the true pirates have not cracked it already? The people who make money from it are the industry's problem. How many of us would waste $20 of hard disk space to save a film on?

These lawyers are attacking the wrong people (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548572)

IANAL, but I seem to remember that keeping the
API secret for your competitors is illegal in .eu
the lawyers should attack the designers of DVD for
reason of anti-competitive behaviour.

A closed standard is NOT a standard.

How is this different from CMU? (2)

Benjamin Shniper (24107) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548573)

CMU, at the behest of the RIAA just reprimanded students for using the microsoft network to distribute mp3s and other software. They did this because they aren't a common carrier of information and could be sued by the RIAA. Here we see another man, using what can only be described as trade secrets to create an unliscenced DVD player over the internet.

Why do we pretend, sometimes, to care about IP at all, when by our actions we decry it as a thing of any value to society? Why do we feel so moved by this guy risking his neck against the Movie industry when thousands of penniless college students are doing the same against the music industry?

What is the internet? If a library can loan out books to anyone who wants them at any time, then why aren't library books on the internet, as well as tapes and cds that are at all libraries; even movies and newspapers are in libraries. If all that information IS ALREADY FREE AT THE NEAREST LIBRARY, then is the internet going to be, in the near future, simply a big shared *free* library?At some libraries I went to, some software was available for borrowing.

Okay, I'm done ranting now. Flame away.

-Benjamin Shniper

Uh, dude... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548574)

WTF has your statement got to do with the subject? Not that I fault you, I have built every PC I ever owned (nearly a dozen).

Re:Free the Code! (2)

Reject (11791) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548575)

I think there's a copy on Bruce Peren's Technocrat [technocrat.net]. I'm too lazy to find the exact URL, but it should be somewhere on this [technocrat.net] URL.

--
Reject

Re:Waste of time (1)

fishbowl (7759) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548576)

"...the individual must either go into great
debt or quit. "

This sometimes is the case, but it is quite urban-legend-ish.

The fact is that so many people go into legal situations with an attitude of ignorance, apathy
and defeatism, and they go with their wallet out.

"Being Sued" does not drive everybody into bankruptcy. The situation is not as bleak as
slashdot discussions and other pessimistic people
want you to believe it is.

Most people who say that it's so, have never gone
to court for anything more serious than a traffic ticket. And even fewer of them are lawyers (and MOST LAWYERS never see the inside of a courtroom.)

Re:The missing conclusion to his statement. (2)

Kintanon (65528) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548577)

I will have nothing to do with work on CSS. If there is any work that I may be considered to have ownership of, I give up all rights to that work.


Yeah, he got raped by room 101. They grabbed him, tore him apart, and dumped his pieces back into the sewer. It's a shame, we need to support him as best we can. Primarily by distributing the source code as far as we can.

Kintanon

MoRE (1)

Macblaster (94623) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548578)

Does anyone know MORE's website. Also, what is the guy talking about when he reffers to Altavista. I was there for 20 minutes and didn't find anything. But - no matter. I downloaded DeCSS as soon as I found out about it.

Can you keep your head, (1)

cpuffer_hammer (31542) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548579)

Can you keep your head,
Your backbone,
or your heart.
Will will all find out the answere on the day it falls apart.
(L. Fish)

Making backups is leagle
Media shifting is leagle
Fair use is leagle
these are all things that this coding is preventing
things that are leagle...

RE for compatibility is leagle

So what is the problem here?

It can't really be copying because the only copying that can do any real harm is done with disk pressing not disk burning.

What this is realy about is stopping people from makeing DVDs without going through the channels
If we can uncode their movies we can incode are own. THAT IS WHAT HAS THEM JUMPING it is the same thing that has them jumping about MP3.

It's not the copying stupid it's the creation they
have to stop.....

Ok people......'nuff already.. (1)

Traverser (112588) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548581)

Decss 1.21B has been sighted at www.dvdsoft.de. Time for the /.effect. Lets grab the code, change it, create an easy to install/use package. I smell another open sourced project on the horizon. Time to make a DVD player in our image. And let's not forget to make a port for the Lawyers running Windows...:)

Film Industry's attempt backfires! (1)

chown (62159) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548582)

I think it's both incredibly funny and awesome that as soon as the lawyers decided that you can't have the source code, interest in it must have jumped by like 6,000%. Open CSS development probably just kicked into high gear because of this decision. Had this not happened, it probably would have stayed in the public eye (of the linux community anyway), but I doubt as many people would have wanted to become involved with the project as they do now... hehe... smooth move film industry. :)

Sick of this industry... (2)

swordgeek (112599) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548583)

So the motion picture industry is threatening geeks now. Surprise, surprise.

Let's see here; Between 1/2" mag tape, cassettes, VCRs, CD-R(W), MP3s, and now hacking DVDs, the entire entertainment industry must be on the verge of bankruptcy! The poor execs!!!

Oh, wait a minute--they're _not_ broke? Now howinthehell did THAT happen?

The industry knows full well that VCRs, despite the problems of piracy, have made more money for them than anything else ever has. They also know that, like with CDs (mostly) replacing records, they'll be able to jack up the price of DVDs and make a _larger_ profit. There is no question of them losing money to pirates on this glitch.

So why are they threatening programmers? Three reasons:

1) Because they can. (power)
2) Because they want to. (greed and powerlust)
3) Because they do. (force of habit)

Both music and movie industries have consistently taken the myopic view of technology, and have ended up hurting themselves every time. It's clear that they won't learn any better. However, it's really starting to piss me off, and I'll be making a point of illegally copying movies when I can, the same way that the industry convinced me to copy CDs of major artists. (indies and the like always get my money--they need it!)

The sadist in me is rubbing his hands together with glee--they'll hurt themselves more this time than they have yet.

time to go underground (1)

Hasdi Hashim (17383) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548584)

It's really pathetic. It used to be the case where system breakers were the ones who need to hide behind an alias. Now this may start a trend where regular coders has to publish code behind an alias so they won't be hunted down patent and copyright lawyers.

Wait till Linux 'accidently' incorporated a patented algorithm. Linus Toravlds will suddenly dissappear from linux-devel. The mysterious "Father Penguin" recently decided to take over the maintainence of the linux project. The FBIs will be on to Linus, accussing him to be the hacker by the name of "Father Penguin" but Linus said, "you can't prove it!" and the masses will go "Yeah right! but we are still with you!"

Hasdi

Re:Some Legal Analysis (4)

mwa (26272) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548585)

I think there are archived posts by Derek that clearly indicate the goal of this project was to allow the playing of DVD's. His intent can be demonstrated as such, not to "enable and assist" circumvention. Intent is clearly stated as being primary to the offense.

None-the-less, I wouldn't mess with the lawyers either. It's one thing to work on open source software. It's another thing entirely to back your work up with your life savings and criminal record.

Re:big deal (1)

beme (85862) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548587)

Big deal except for Derek and Jon. Now they can't work on the stuff anymore. It's a shame that these guys are getting bullied out of doing something they were probably enjoying.

Disclaimer:
I know neither of them and only know what I've read from the link in the story, so I'm no expert. Oh, and it looks like there probably was some violation of UK law (albeit one that I'd say is a bad one). Oh2, I also don't care much about the DVD thing, so maybe your point is more valid for those who do.

-beme

New crypto wont work. Must be backwards compatible (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548589)

And if new DVDs play in old players, then the current leaked CSS code will still be able to decrypt them. However, if DVD makers switch to a new secure standard, they will have a riot of angry consumers on their hands. Recall lawsuits where a grocery store bought a new cashier/terminal system in 1997. It was not Y2K compliant and breaks horribleyand can't be fixed. Store sued and vendor was FORCED to refund full amount AND pay cost of replacement with other vendor's system because it's illegal to abandon a system so soon after selling it to the consumer without telling them about it's short lifespan in advance. DVD makers CAN'T SURVIVE THIS MANY LAWSUITS. They WILL BUCKLE to consumer demand and all this will eventually go away and we'll have an open standard JUST LIKE CDs which (!) have managed to be profitable w/o region codes and w/o crypto. Imagine that!

Re:This is absurd! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548590)

what's BMRT doing inthere? BMRT is as closed-source as can be.

I'll mirror.. (1)

MikeFM (12491) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548592)

Anybody still have the files? I never bothered grabbing them as this computer hasn't a DVD player. I have access to quite a number of machines in several locations around the world and am already being sued for a few things so what the hell do I care if one more wants to sue me. Anyone who has the files email them to mogmiosSPAM@excite.com and I'll grab them and let you know where I put them first. Also I suggest everyone create a Tripod/Geocities/whatever account (or 20) and mirror the files on each one and preferably change the file name for each account so that it is harder for them to scan for. That way even if they are forced to scan by some lawyer they have plausible proof they are doing their best without actually getting rid of the files.

Shame really... (1)

Nichen (34123) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548593)

...that the entertainment industry feels like it has to maintain a stranglehold on their products (movies and music mainly). I really want to see some numbers that show how much money the industry "loses" by allowing people the capability to digitally copy works. If it was as bad as they say it is, artists would stop putting out music and record companies would go under. As another /. poster said earlier (would post link but can't find it), it's people that steal movies and cd's from stores that cause the biggest financial drain on the industry. I just want to be able to make backup copies of my DVD's. Is that so wrong?

--Jack--

Be Revenged (1)

maroberts (15852) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548596)

If you are a developer, forget spamming and complaining - contribute to the Linux DVD project and wherever DeCSS/css-auth ends up.

Of course, publicly, you should repeat this mantra after me

I will have nothing to do with work on CSS. If there is any work that I may be considered to have ownership of, I give up all rights to that work.

;-P

Re:I'll mirror the source, and share with all. (1)

jammer (4062) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548597)

I've got it mirrored. See my comment elsewhere in this thead.

Re:Free the Code! (1)

dexev (106608) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548598)

If someone posts a URL (or emails me a tarball) for the source, I'll put it up on my server.

An Open Letter to Hollywood (4)

FreeUser (11483) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548600)

Let me make myself crystal clear to any "Film Industry" types or representatives lurking here. I just purchased 4 DVDs over the weekend, with the expectation of being able to view them under Linux in the near future (I do not run Windows anymore, at all), and so that I could help in debugging the (until now) forthcoming Linux and drivers and software.

You have chosen to make that difficult, if not impossible. As a result, you will find me purchasing no further DVDs, at all, forever, until such a time as I am able to view them using the platform of my choice in an open and free manner. If you were to check my financial records over the last several years, you would find I have spent thousands of dollars on Laser Disks. Future thousands for DVD releases could also have been yours.

Not anymore.

Not only will I not be purchasing any further DVDs until I can view them under Linux, I won't be purchasing any further movies of any kind, on any medium, from you folks. I am going to rediscover the library as a form of entertainment, and do my best to insure that no further dollars pass from my wallet to yours, either at the video store, video rental store, cable box, or even at the theater.

It is my hope that others will feel, and do, likewise.

In the meantime, perhaps you should reflect upon your own strategies, and consider the following carefully.
  • This action is not aimed at commercial pirates, but individuals. Pirates can already mass produce DVDs of their own:
    • Without css decryption, using the analog out, redigitizing, and mastering the non-encrypted result. Loss of quality: minimal.
    • Running Microsoft Windows and any one of several widely and freely available Windows utilities for ripping DVDs.
    • By placing a video camera (digital or otherwise) in front of the screen, digitizing the results, and pressing the DVD.

  • The folks working on the css decryption and Linux DVD stuff are trying to make a product they have paid for work with Linux. The law clearly allows this, even if they do not have the same deep pockets to defend themselves with that the film industry does to make their lives difficult.
  • Those of us wanting to watch DVD under Linux do not, for the most part, have any interest in pirating DVDs. While I am sure there are exceptions, the vast majority of pirates already have such tools available under Windows (see above). By alienating Linux and FreeBSD users you people in the film industry have alienated some of the most technically savvy folks in the world -- the very demographic group most likely to embrace an emerging technology such as DVD, and a by and large well paid group with lots of disposable income to spend on your product. Nice shooting, Tex.

Spead the Source - Zipped Here for your pleasure! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548601)

Enjoy

cssdvd.zip [134.173.94.44]

Re:I've said this before but .... (1)

slashdot-terminal (83882) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548602)

I have a good question does anyone have a copy of this program outside the country? If so something could be done that is similar to OpenBSD and gnupg! Just go to a country like Iran or perhaps China or Cuba and do all the development based there and in a distributed manner. No muss no fuss. I really can relate to having hardware that is not supported by people or not working properly. Since in the linux world the most expensive thing is not the OS it's the hardware.

Re:This is absurd! (1)

roca (43122) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548603)

The problem is that the sort of content protection that Big Media aspires to simply can't be made bulletproof. Any all-software solution can and will be broken fairly easily no matter how good your obfuscation or cryptography is. Hardware solutions are harder but they will fall too.

The *only* thing they can do is come up with some token technical solution and protect it with legal measures, which is of course what they're doing. It's not because they're lame or stupid (although they probably are), it's primarily because nothing better can be done.

It's interesting to see the degree to which everyone's been fooled into thinking that the cracks on DVD and the Windows Media Player, to name two examples, were just due to mistakes made by the vendors. Mistakes help, but the idea that one day an invulnerable solution will come along is a pipe dream.

Rob

EFF.org (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548604)

For what it is worth, I wrote the EFF after the story of DeCSS authors getting their web site pulled first appeared. THe response was that they are interested in this event and are following the situation.

I think that it is important that /.'ers write to whatever civil libertarian groups they think appropriate, congressmen, etc.

Reverse engineering for the purpose of interoperability is and should not be illegal. Harrasment by trade groups intended to prevent this activity should be fought.

Re:YAMS (Yet Another Mirror Site) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548605)

Is it legal to mirror those in the USA?

Wrong approach (4)

ABadDog (28370) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548607)

It appears many people on /. are advocating the wrong approach to dealing with this, namely spreading the code far and wide. This is doomed to fail, because we're being driven underground, and prevented from engaging in perfectly legal activity...the reverse engineering of CSS for the purposes of compatibility. Spreading the code around in the absence of someone willing to take responsibility for maintaining it is not going to help in producing a Linux/OpenSource DVD player. Running underground is acting like the pirates they want to paint us as.

I can understand Jon and Derek's position. When the laywer hounds of hell are after you and you're in the hotseat, it's perfectly natural to turn and run. Is there a larger organization (with deeper pockets and/or staff lawyers) that'd be willing to take a stand with Jon and/or Derek to fight for their rights? Perhaps we could get the FSF or the EFF interested. Probably the EFF more so than the FSF, but still do we wish to give up our rights simply because we're unwilling to fight for them?

Why is indust stopping me frm seeing DVDs I PAID 4 (2)

root (1428) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548608)

Record stores, both little and the big chain store, have sold import records and CDs for ages. Records and CDs have no encryption and no region coding. No one complains about this. Why is this all of a sudden a problem when it comes to movies? I PAID for the import DVD I bought, right? There will never be a local distributor for the imports I buy. Why shouldn't I be able to watch it? This has NOTHING TO DO WITH PIRACY (as the movie industry would like us to all think). Someone answer me that?

I PAID for the bleeping movie. Get the fscking lawyers out of my player! They're jamming up the mechanism! :)

Re:people are finky about encryption. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548610)

Doesn't one of Shakespeare's plays have a line something like "first, let's kill all the lawyers"? Sounds like a problem that's been around a long time!

Questions... Does anyone know the answer? (2)

richnut (15117) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548611)

1) From what I've gathered there are two things going on here, once is the Linux dvd project that distributed software that could play dvd movies if a user had the original DVD disc (That's Derek in the UK right?) The other is these guys in Norway who distributed code that's clearly for cracking. Why are both of these groupd getting picked on, it seems to me only one was trying to pirate content.

2) What does DeCSS have to do with users who just want to play their disks in their computers? Does making a player cause CSS to be defeated?

3) I'm all for free information here, but there seems to be a lot of people whining about some guys who knew damn well their work would be used to rip off content.

Anyone have any answers?

-Rich

Security through Terrorism (1)

LucaL (25364) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548612)

After having demonstrated that Security through
Obscurity doesn't work, I guess the MPAA is trying to demonstrate that Security through Terrorism does work.

This is an entirely understandable reaction. They are just trying to ensure that the next "tamper-proof" copy protection scheme remains tamper-free.

One incentive less to go see a movie.

Re:I'd like to know... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548613)

And if the companies that are threatening are Paramount and Lucas would you refuse to go see the next Star Trek or Starwars movie? Making empty threats is worse than not making them at all. Or will you tell them that you won't pay to see their movies you'll just pirate them, reinforcing their belief that they have nothing to gain by supporting your point of view?

Re:No one ever answers "What country has no IP law (1)

slashdot-terminal (83882) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548614)

Well from what I have heard China is a really popular place to put material that people want and distribute it illegally. Even though the mainstream press has given them a bad pr image they still continue to thrive. I really would thing that any major third world country that hasn't anything really much to loose or is perhaps self contained could work for that purpose in theory. It's only in places where people are afraid of looking bad because it might endanger their payments on their new Porche or palatial home.

Re:How is this different from CMU? (1)

PigleT (28894) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548615)

It is a very similar situation to mp3. MP3 is a free format that the entertainment industry want to stifle, as is the now-cracked-DVD scene.

The reason it appeals to folks is that he's the first of hopefully many others to do it - a pioneer. If it gets stamped down on now through all these fsckwit lawyers and their trumped-up Intellectual Property arguments, then something good and fun will be missed out on.

CNN has a story on DVD: (1)

Denor (89982) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548616)


It's up here: Activist defends DVD hack [cnn.com]

Surprisingly enough, they come out on the good side of it - even some quotes from some EFF folks on how not everyone who has this is going to go out and pirate their local Blockbuster out of business.

Re:Sick of this industry... (2)

jms (11418) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548617)

They don't call 'em the west coast mafia for nothing.

DeCSS author (2)

kroyd (29866) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548619)

I hope they don't, but it would be interesting if the "movie industry" went after the author of DeCSS for damages. Jon Johansen is 15 years old and lives in Norway, where such suits are almost unheard of. Since the newspapers in Norway are rather boring it should get front page exposure..

Ah well, one can always hope they aren't that stupid.

Re:What we need to do, folks... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548620)

You forget the mindset of the entertainment industry. To them, it seems that a theoretical loss is more important than a real profit.

Browser times out- Use wget! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548622)

the following will work to retrieve the source:

wget -t 0 -O ~/LiVid.tgz http://technocrat.net/ArticleImages/LiVid.tgz

HTH

Re:What we need to do, folks... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1548623)

Would they really sell that many more DVDs? Considering that the Linux market is still pretty small on the desktop and that only a small portion of those using Linux are likely to watch DVDs on their computer how many sales are they really going to lose?

Anyone have any stats on how many movies are bought to watch on their computer( Win32/Mac/Linux) vs on a TV with a 'normal' DVD player? How large is the computer DVD market anyway?

Re:How is this different from CMU? (1)

Alan Shutko (5101) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548624)

Here we see another man, using what can only be described as trade secrets to create an unliscenced DVD player over the internet.

So? AFAIK, trade secrets are not protected from random people reverse engineering them, but from actual theft of said information. If you take a publically available product and figure out how it works, I don't believe trade secret law offers any protection.

So, the question is did the authors of this use any stolen info to break DVD info? If they didn't, then they didn't do anything wrong.

And they're different from the MP3 spreaders in another way. They're trying to make it possible for owners of licensed copies of DVDs to play them. If you can't see that's a world of difference from distributing copyrighted works, you should go into a corner and think for a while.

and a way forward ... (4)

taniwha (70410) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548625)

In my opinion Derek would be found liable by the court as this statute stands. Derek is a scapegoat - the DVD consortium have not gone after others who have worked on cracking CSS because they reside in coutries that do not have such a law on the books. Unfortunately, the UK parliament passed this law (no doubt after considerable lobbying by industry groups) and Derek is a UK resident so they went after him.

EVEN if the DVD Consortium was on shaky legal grounds, the cost in time and money of fighting a copyright infringement case is astronomical and I think most people in Derek's position would have done the same thing.

I agree - and I think that this also points to how we get around this .... bend, don't break .... there are lot more of us than them (the lawyers) what should happen now is that someone else should pick up the torch, move the sources under CVS elsewhere and continue work on linux DVD .... don't make a big deal about it .... but also realise that eventually the lawyers will come after you, when they do you raise a stick, then bow out gracefully and pass the torch ...

etc / Mirror, mirror on the wall (1)

LocalYokel (85558) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548626)

It's interesting how much more interested people seem to be now than when it was first available. Hmmm... this reminds me of a few other things that are considered a Bad Thing © by many governments:

  • Drugs
  • Guns
  • Prostitution
  • Gambling
  • Warez
  • Pornography
  • Hate Speech

It certainly gets my attention, but I wonder how much of a `problem' any of the above really are (or rather would be, if they were legal).

Anyway, I had a rhyme that goes:
Mirror, mirror on the wall
how many copies, let's count them all!

  1. http://www.noeltner.de/noeltner/freetv. html [noeltner.de]
  2. http://home.worldonline.dk/~ andersa/download/DeCSS.zip [worldonline.dk]

Re:foreign mirror? (1)

Nimrod (2809) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548627)

If I'm understanding everything correctly, CSS is only 40-bit encryption. So the NSA dosen't care about CSS. The entertainment industry has many high dollar lawyars that "protect their interests" (i.e. screw the consumer).

Re:Why is indust stopping me frm seeing DVDs I PAI (2)

slashdot-terminal (83882) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548628)

The main difference in their eyes is that it's almost more of an emergent technology and medium. They want to control it steadily and slowly so that all people from here on out have to pay to use them with different taxes and encoders and various schemes. They just think that people who use linux are bad. Maybe this is perhaps because for the oversimplified reason that if I use a free OS then it makes me a cheap scate. Many people involved in making upper level policy devisions are usually not the type of people who can make strong intellectual arguments for or against a certain topic. It seems that free time activities are now more important than work. I would think that the increasing desire for measures like these are actions made by people who hate their current line of work and want to do something that they are perhaps better suited for. Their thought is why should an artist's life be hard and fraught with suffering. Now I know this is probably a really bad argument when such artists usually make several million dollars per picture enough to make them completely comfortable for the rest of their lives but it is an argument that is frequently used.

Everday... (1)

bconway (63464) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548629)

Every time I see another article on this, I'm quite glad that I picked up a Creative 6X package with dxr3 decoder card. Not only can I boot windows and get the best hardware decoding out there with the software to go with it, Linux versions are on the way that don't require insane amounts of cpu power and won't get me jailed. Sure this is a crude way of thinking the whole thing through, but perhaps in the long run it is the _far_ better solution on my end.

Everyday... (1)

bconway (63464) | more than 14 years ago | (#1548630)

Every time I see another article on this, I'm quite glad that I picked up a Creative 6X package with dxr3 decoder card. Not only can I boot windows and get the best hardware decoding out there with the software to go with it, Linux versions are on the way that don't require insane amounts of cpu power and won't get me jailed. Sure this is a crude way of thinking the whole thing through, but perhaps in the long run it is the _far_ better solution on my end.
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