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Debian 4.0 'Etch' Released

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the etch-up-me-harties dept.

Debian 245

An anonymous reader writes "Earlier today we discussed the possibility that Debian Etch might be released soon. Well, according to debian.org, it has already happened. Etch has been released: 'The Debian Project is pleased to announce the official release of Debian GNU/Linux version 4.0, codenamed etch, after 21 months of constant development. Debian GNU/Linux is a free operating system which supports a total of eleven processor architectures and includes the KDE, GNOME and Xfce desktop environments. It also features cryptographic software and compatibility with the FHS v2.3 and software developed for version 3.1 of the LSB.'"

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Yay! (5, Funny)

Compact Dick (518888) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660283)

I still remember my Woody days *sniff*

Re:Yay! (5, Funny)

wuputah (1068216) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660319)

Don't worry, you can still get a woody [google.com] with etch.

*ducks*

Disclaimer: I am not responsible for any loss of employment or productivity by clicking on any link in this post.

Re:Yay! (2, Funny)

Stephen Tennant (936097) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660391)

My first woody was a memorable experience.

Re:Yay! (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660507)

I hear they've got pills for that nowadays.

Re:Yay! (1)

MarkRose (820682) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660571)

Certainly better than that slink-y I had in the late '90s.

whew!! (-1, Troll)

jackstack (618328) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660291)

Just 4 months late!! Not bad. First post!

Re:whew!! (0, Troll)

jackstack (618328) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660309)

Guess not. should have known better.

Re:whew!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660311)

you fail it.

And its not even the 1st... (5, Funny)

arlo5724 (172574) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660295)

For a second there I thought maybe this was a late April fool's joke...

Re:And its not even the 1st... (5, Funny)

dirtyforker (844960) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660801)

Don't be silly. Debian don't release their April Fool's jokes until October.

Re:And its not even the 1st... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18661263)

But when they do, you get some of the most stable April Fool's jokes possible.

Re:And its not even the 1st... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18661043)

They did actually intend to release it on April 1st, but it got delayed ...

Multipath broken in debian etch! (5, Informative)

ljaguar (245365) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660301)

etch ships with CONFIG_IP_ROUTE_MULTIPATH_CACHED (experimental) enabled in the kernel. This breaks the multipath route behavior in iproute. As the google search [google.com] shows, it is wreaking havoc with anyone using multipath and dual-wan systems. Those who upgraded this morning to the new stable may be in for a ride. This is a known [debian-adm...ration.org] and documented [launchpad.net] issue but cannot be found in debian's bug tracking system. This issue is not unique to Debian but it should not have passed through the release engineering for the new stable release.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (2, Insightful)

Bitsy Boffin (110334) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660315)

Surely anybody doing anything like that would be rolling thier own kernel anyway? The only time I've used the Debian supplied kernels is when installing, soon as that's done I always compile a fresh one.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660457)

not everyone's got the time and rarely anyone has the need. don't be a gentoo user.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (2, Insightful)

cxreg (44671) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660639)

not everyone's got the time and rarely anyone has the need. don't be a gentoo user.

That's pretty ignorant. Few if any pieces of software have the number of compile time options as the Linux kernel. Even if you module-ize everything you possibly can, there are still many choices you make that you are bound to, such as IO schedulers and pre-empting.

Any serious Linux user is capable of and knows the value of compiling their own kernel.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (2, Insightful)

oddityfds (138457) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660987)

> Any serious Linux user is capable of

Yeah. Except they always seem to end up disabling initrd for some unknown reason ("initrd is hard, man..." ... not), and then forget to reenable it when they switch back!

> and knows the value of compiling their own kernel.

Yup. 0, to me, except if I do some forms of kernel hacking.

The statment "Everyone serious compiles their own kernel anyway" is just not true.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (2, Interesting)

rbanffy (584143) | more than 7 years ago | (#18661277)

The problem with rolling out my own kernel is that the more customized the machine gets, the more complicated it is to rebuild it.

I had used my own kernel fresh from kernel.org for ages, but then I realized it was so much more work than just running the stock kernel - that had all the problems and workarounds documented - in order to be on the bleeding edge (something hard to do with Debian stable, anyway). I just gave up on it. I thought that if there is a package manager, I should use it fully. "linux-image" is a package.

I see heavily customized kernel machines or hand-installed software have more maintenance problems, take longer to rebuild on disasters and, in general, cost more to keep running than fully packaged ones.

If running stock machines increases reliability and reduces cost, it's only my sense of adventure that kept me building my own kernels. It was nice to learn my way around it and is a handy knowledge if something really requires it, but, if the standard one does the job you, I advise you to stay with it.

That said, I still prefer to install the "non-infrastructure software" on a given machine (Zope, Plone, JDK, Tomcat, Rails are the usual suspects) by myself, outside package management. I don't want to be surprised by apt if something breaks the hard way.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (4, Insightful)

daveewart (66895) | more than 7 years ago | (#18661307)

Any serious Linux user is capable of and knows the value of compiling their own kernel.

Which includes knowing when it is not necessary to do so. Unless you have extremely strange hardware, or very esoteric requirements for the system, the packaged kernels are absolutely fine. Building your own gains very little over the packaged kernels in these circumstances, either in performance or convenience; it will probably actually make life more complicated, as you will need to keep your kernel up-to-date manually, rather than just using the newer packaged kernel for your distro.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660883)

When you start with Linux, you use the stock kernel, because it is easily available and works. When you gain experience, you start to compile your own. When you become a professional sysadmin, you use the stock kernels, because they are easily available and work.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660953)

thank you.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18661195)

When you become a professional sysadmin, you use the stock kernels, because they are easily available and work.
Not to mention you don't have time to go compiling custom kernels on 50 different systems. Then try to explain when you file a bug report that "Well, no, the problem doesn't happen with the stock distribution kernel, just my custom one but I can't find anyone else having this problem with any other system than distribution X so it seems to be a bug here in something that we're tickling." Nope. Custom kernels are a bad idea... even OpenBSD maintainers will tell you to FOAD unless you're running their distributed kernel because they have no idea WTF you've done to your kernel.

Shoddy rushed release (4, Funny)

canadiangoose (606308) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660339)

So this is what happens when you rush a Debian release out in less than 2 years, eh?

Seriously though, this is a rather surprising bug to slip through.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (2, Interesting)

fo0bar (261207) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660425)

etch ships with CONFIG_IP_ROUTE_MULTIPATH_CACHED (experimental) enabled in the kernel. This breaks the multipath route behavior in iproute. As the google search shows, it is wreaking havoc with anyone using multipath and dual-wan systems. Those who upgraded this morning to the new stable may be in for a ride. This is a known and documented issue but cannot be found in debian's bug tracking system. This issue is not unique to Debian but it should not have passed through the release engineering for the new stable release.

So, this was reported for a different kernel on a different distro? What happened when you filed the bug report with Debian's BTS?

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (4, Interesting)

ljaguar (245365) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660491)

i didn't know about it until i updated and things broke.

as a debian stable user, there's a reasonable expectation that, after 21 months in development, they don't ship a kernel with experimental feature that is known to be broken?

I don't mean this is an experimental feature that breaks sometimes. This feature is just clearly documented to be broken. As in it doesn't work.

I only found out about the stuff that I posted because I updated this morning and all hell broke loose.

I know I should have tested it on a test machine before bringing it into production. (or maybe waited a bit) But this is a small machine in an informal setting. I don't have a test machine. But I do have 20+ users with slow internet. and it's really not asking for too much to expect a thing so blatant.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (5, Insightful)

cymen (8178) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660651)

If you have no test system and the machine is providing service to users then do not upgrade to .0 releases. It's simple common sense. Maybe you had some overwhelming need to get this release that goes against the need to keep service reliable but you didn't mention it so I'll assume not. Let other people do the testing of that .0 release to find all the bugs and huge gotchas that are basically inevitable.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (3, Informative)

ljaguar (245365) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660895)

you say that as if debian .0 releases are just any old .0 releases.

debian testing release is one of the most popular distribution in its own right.

this isn't exactly some hacked up job released after big push to meet deadline. this went through months of release engineering and countless beta-testers.

debian stable release (the snapshot of etch as of today) do not get updates or bugfixes. etch 4.0 will not see any updates to gnome or kernel or gaim or anything. debian stable only gets security bugfixes. (if the bug is just a bug without security implications, it does not get fixed.)

don't you think this puts on an extra burden of not enabling (once again, known to be nonfunctional) experimental kernel option?

yes, testing before live production is good practice. yes, patience before upgrading is a virtue. but only because debian fucks up sometimes. if debian doesn't fuck up ever, patience is not a virtue. and i'm saying that debian fucked up.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (3, Insightful)

Macka (9388) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660877)

I know I should have tested it on a test machine before bringing it into production. (or maybe waited a bit) But this is a small machine in an informal setting. I don't have a test machine. But I do have 20+ users with slow internet. and it's really not asking for too much to expect a thing so blatant.
Man, that's pretty reckless, and you know it. Did you even take a backup first? As for not having a test machine, with Xen and VMware are your disposal these days there's no real excuse for not installing it elsewhere, and at least taking a few days to give it the once over before going near a real server. The truth is that you rushed in without proper forethought and planning and you got burned.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660429)

Hmm, why does someone post to a site named debian-administration.org, but does not make a Debian bug report?

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660659)

If you think this should be fixed, please file an appropriate bug report at http://bugs.debian.org/ [debian.org]

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (4, Insightful)

dondelelcaro (81997) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660693)

This is a known and documented issue but cannot be found in debian's bug tracking system. This issue is not unique to Debian but it should not have passed through the release engineering for the new stable release.

The reason why it slipped through the release engineering for the new stable release is quite simply because no one reported it as a bug.

If someone had reported it, it would have been dealt with and otherwise resolved. Indeed, it may still be resolved in a point release, but it definetly won't be unless you (or someone like you) who experiences the bug files a bug in the bug tracking system (using reportbug or your MUA). Since (as of a few days ago) no one has filed such a bug related in anyway to MULTIPATH_CACHED, it has not been fixed.

Considering the sheer number of people who (supposedly) use testing, none of whom apparently found the bug and/or bothered to report it, it was just not a popular feature to have been tested properly. Like it or not, a critical part of Debian's QA are the users who are using the testing and unstable distributions and reporting bugs. If they don't find it, no one will. (In case you haven't figured it out yet, there's nothing magical about being a Debian Developer in this regard; we're users too, and do the same type of testing.)

No, it's because a catastrophically bad system (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18661095)

The reason is not that it has not been reported as a bug _To Debian_. It has been reported multiple times to others, perhaps to LKML?

The problem is that Debian doesn't more or less automatically read these bug reports. The mentality is that "if it's not reported to debian, it's not a bug". This eases the burden of being a package maintainer, but it certainly doesn't help Debian or the users.
What is needed, is cooperation of bug-reporting cross-distro, at least for bugs that are not distro-specific. Do we really need dozens of bug-reports for the same bug?

And to clarify: This is not Debian-specific.

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (1)

gweihir (88907) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660761)

Huh? Who uses distro-supplied kernels anyways, except for the initial installation?

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (1)

wouterke (653865) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660925)

Because compiling your own kernel is a waste of time, and the benefits from optimizing it for your own processor are negligable anyway?

Re:Multipath broken in debian etch! (1)

logixoul (1046000) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660959)

Um, me? Why would I go out of my way to introduce points of failure in an integrated system with the promised benefit of gaining, like, 5% more speed? (not trolling btw, just curious)

This release begs the question... (2, Interesting)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660303)

The question is: -

Will I be able to have Debian perfectly handle [all] my basic multimedia requirements well by default? I would like to play Yahoo, CNN, ABC, BBC andd FOX video and audio by default. Let a slashdotter inform a soul.

Re:This release begs the question... (1)

The Anarchist Avenge (1004563) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660313)

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re:This release begs the question... (3, Funny)

Geoffreyerffoeg (729040) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660533)

"Means." You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

In particular, the English language is defined by common use, not by some hypothetical Academie Anglaise, and certainly not by Slashdotters.

Re:This release begs the question... (4, Informative)

Doctor Crumb (737936) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660345)

Short answer: no. Long answer: not until those sites release their content in a format that can be legally distributed by debian. "Free Software" does not only refer to the price.

Re:This release begs the question... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660351)

And how does that relate to petitio principii [wikipedia.org] ??

Re:This release begs the question... (2, Informative)

MrDomino (799876) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660373)

By default, no. You'll have to install some extra packages from the non-free repository to play non-free media. However, all your multimedia requirements are just an apt-get install away; flash 9 (which fixes lots of long-standing Linux flash issues), mp3, win32 codecs, etc... I've been using it on my laptop for a while, and it's been pretty solid; I've got no complaints yet.

Might take some searching: (4, Informative)

Kadin2048 (468275) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660443)

Just to follow up, by "non free repository," you'll need something outside the normal Debian repo system -- probably Penguin Liberation Front, certainly nothing U.S.-based -- in order to get that software. (Although I think the Debian/Ubuntu PLF mirrors are down at the moment.)

In addition to Flash (patent issues) and the Win32 codecs (patents), you'll also need libdvdcss2 (DMCA) if you want to play DVDs, and you might as well get LAME if it's not in there by default (god knows -- probably patents).

Putting
deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org/ [debian-multimedia.org] stable main
into your sources.list ought to work, but I'm not sure how actively that repo is maintained (it still lists sarge as the stable tree). The VideoLAN people likewise just have instructions for Sarge but hopefully that'll change soon.

Re:Might take some searching: (4, Informative)

Novus (182265) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660945)

I am not a lawyer, but I have read the applicable law reasonably carefully, and I'm familiar with the cases mentioned here.

Redistributing the Flash player is less a patent problem than side effects of a restrictive licence [adobe.com] . For example, openSUSE goes out of its way to install browsers compatible with its bundled Flash player; Novell apparently has a deal with Adobe to allow redistribution of acroread and flash-player. Debian seems to circumvent this problem by having the package installer download Flash straight from Adobe. Nice and legal either way (assuming Adobe isn't violating a patent somewhere or something like that, which I doubt).

libdvdcss2 is trickier. Using Finland as an example of an EU country (applicable law [finlex.fi] ), the situation seems to be that you are allowed to circumvent CSS to watch a movie, but I'm not lawyer enough to tell whether CSS qualifies for legal protection (that depends on whether it's an effective copy protection mechanism, I think) and whether the law requiring the copyright holder/distributor to provide a circumvention device, if necessary, is applicable. You'd also be very hard pushed to argue substantial non-circumventing use, making redistribution quite risky. In conclusion, I think libdvdcss2 users in Finland are safe, but redistributors may have a harder time. Other EU countries should be similar, as most of this legislation originates with the EU.

The win32 binary codecs are, in part at least, straightforward copyright infringment (unlicensed derivative works), but haven't been subject to any legal action I've heard of. Some of the codecs developed from scratch (e.g. some MPEG variants) seem to need patent licences in some areas; this is the primary cause of problems with MP3 (openSUSE circumvents this by using Real's Helix engine for MP3 decoding, which is licensed).

In conclusion, the situation is a mess and if you want to be safe, stick to what the major corps tell you is OK. If it isn't, they take the heat.

Re:Might take some searching: (1)

Knuckles (8964) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660955)

Although I think the Debian/Ubuntu PLF mirrors are down at the moment

This may help: http://medibuntu.sos-sts.com/ [sos-sts.com]

Re:This release begs the question... (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 7 years ago | (#18661087)

Flash 9 is just to apt-get from non-free. As for multimedia, I use debian-multimedia as the source, but it still doesn't seem to play embedded WMV (I just get a gray box), I've understood there's some plug-ins to fix it for Firefox but not for Opera...

Re:This release begs the question... (2, Insightful)

MadMidnightBomber (894759) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660645)

<pedant>No, begging the question is assuming the answer. It justs asks the question.</pedant>

Anyway debian provides a wonderful, stable server distro with the best free software out there. If you want stuff like proprietary audio and video codecs, you can probably get or compile them, but it's not the primary goal of debian. You might be better off with something else.

Re:This release begs the question... (1)

CrossChris (806549) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660713)

Will I be able to have Debian perfectly handle [all] my basic multimedia requirements well by default?

Don't be silly. Debian is predominantly American distro, and they're scared sh*tless of the DMCA. Most multimedia codecs contravene that Act, and also contravene the Debian "purity" doctrines!

If you want a distro with pre-installed, comprehensive multimedia capabilities, you'll have to look at Mint Linux or PCLinuxOS.

Re:This release begs the question... (4, Informative)

Professor_UNIX (867045) | more than 7 years ago | (#18661269)

Will I be able to have Debian perfectly handle [all] my basic multimedia requirements well by default? I would like to play Yahoo, CNN, ABC, BBC andd FOX video and audio by default.
No, but it's not really the fault of the Debian (or any GNU/Linux distribution) maintainers. Many of these sites are defective by design and only work properly with Windows... sometimes only with a certain version of a Windows web browser: Internet Explorer 6. As a MacOS X user it's a *little* less painful to get a lot of these sites to work in Firefox or Safari in order ot get streaming video to work, but by no means does everything run smooth. The situation is even worse with Linux in regards to how poorly these sites choose to support that platform.

The only thing I'm happy about is that most of these sites are migrating to using streaming video using a Flash-based player like YouTube does so they just use normal HTTP for the transfer mechanism and are simple to get working through a firewall. In the bad old days I had to worry about shit like RealVideo proxies, Quicktime, RTSP, PNA, Windows MMS, etc. While they're probably more efficient, they require your firewall to have a specialized application proxy and it's just an extra pain in the ass if they break the protocol in a new version. The sites that aren't using a Flash player are just streaming Quicktime/Windows Media over HTTP as well so it has the same effect. The main pain-in-the-ass site I experience is with CNN and FoxNews.

Attention Windows Clickarounds (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660341)

Yeah i'm talking to you. The wannabe computer programmer who thinks they are good at computers because they can click around the computer enough times and find the reboot button and 'fix' an inherently flawed windows system. You think you're cool because you can pirate photoshop but not know anything about it, get Microsoft Office for free but have the literacy of a 1st grader when writing a paper, and get a copy of Norton Anti-virus because your inherently flawed system is useless without Administrative privileges. Get a clue, you are not smart, you are just a corporate sheep for a company that will bury you if you ever tried to write any software that did anything remotely useful. You are a clickaround and all you know is your ugly gray existence that is Windows.

Want the sourcecode to windows vista?

head -n 1000000 /dev/random > Windows.com

Too late? (3, Informative)

ezh (707373) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660357)

Debian has turned into a political zoo of OSS dinosaurs, who are too big and too ancient. They spend lots of time arguing over political issues and raise barrier too high for hew developers.

During Debian Project Leader (DPL) election campaign candidates were almost in unison looking up to Ubuntu as an example on how to attract new users and developers. With Etch out and new DPL in Debian's goal can be summarized in one phrase: "Let's catch up with Ubuntu"

How Debian's brand new DPL wants to do this [debian.org] :

  • rework website
  • rework bugtracking system
  • sex up the desktop, and
  • encourage optional desktop releases every 6 months...
I wonder how they are going to do it... Especially the last bit :-)

Why compete? (3, Insightful)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660371)

I think this new Debian release is good news for Ubuntu which relies on it, so their next release can be on the 4.0 foundation.... but why would Debian want to compete with Ubuntu? They both have different goals in mind. I love Ubuntu to death, but with the 6 month release cycle, it feels like it's always advancing, but also not as stable as something that I would want to use on a server.

Re:Why compete? (1)

ezh (707373) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660379)

We lost countless users to Ubuntu. Admittedly, Ubuntu drew a lot of its users from other distributions and even from Windows. But there is no reason for Debian to be simply the distribution upon which Debian-based distributions are based, we can also get new users by being more appealing.
http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/platforms/sho [debian.org]

Re:Too late? (3, Insightful)

cymen (8178) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660667)

You know I spent a couple of years bitching about how slow Debian is to upgrade. Now I say let them be slow. They serve some market and plenty of other distributions serve those that want more up to date systems. Why change Debian? Slow releases are a core feature.

Re:Too late? (4, Insightful)

gweihir (88907) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660783)

You know I spent a couple of years bitching about how slow Debian is to upgrade. Now I say let them be slow. They serve some market and plenty of other distributions serve those that want more up to date systems. Why change Debian? Slow releases are a core feature.

Actually, ''testing'' is usually reasonably current. If not, you can roll your own package or lock the package and install your own stuff over it. A bit of a pain, but that way I had X11 support for my 7600GT well before Debian had it.

I will likely be going to the next ''testing'' in a month or so.

Re:Too late? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660695)

too late? it broadly had the same or newer revisions of software than the just released RHL5, a few older.

kernel same
apache same
gcc same
openoffice same
postgres same
icdeove same
iceweasel newer
php newer
kde newer
mysql newer
gnome older

if you want bleeding edges you know the alternatives

Re:Too late? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18661111)

gcc same
Actually RHEL's GCC includes all sorts of funky extra patches, e.g. OpenMP support that won't be in FSF until 4.2, generally because the Red Hat guys wrote them. I take your point in general but RHEL's GCC wins.

Instant Success! (3, Insightful)

crhylove (205956) | more than 7 years ago | (#18661073)

They could instantly surpass Ubuntu by pretty much adding all the stuff Ubuntu does (it's all FOSS anyway, right?), but making these small changes:

1. Give users an option to use commercial drivers right off. The new Ubuntu is doing this, but the implementation is still a little rough around the edges, and it's not at all clear that commercial drivers are frequently better than the FOSS ones, which is certainly true for GPU issues.

2. Default to Iceweasel and Icebird. Debian does this already, so they are a leg up. True FOSS is true FOSS, right? And for some dumb reason Ubuntu still defaults to Evolution.

3. Make it even easier to turn on compiz/beryl. Still pretty hard even in feisty, requires xorg.conf editing and such... Lame.

4. Make the default menu look more like windows. You know: "Start" menu, Quicklaunch, App running display (with preview), System Tray, Clock/Calender. Eliminate the top bar that gnome defaults to.

5. Have four potentially different wall papers for each desktop. The first distro to do this is ahead of the Linux Pack.

6. Include some really good foss games. You know, games with 3d sound and video, and online multiplayer. Urban Terror is free (as in beer). Use that one, till a better full FOSS alternative comes along. Hell ioquake3 with the original quake 3 demo files would be better than what most distros ship with.

7. Have Iceweasel, Icebird, Pidjin, Tomboy Notes, and Open Office Writer automatically in the quick launch.

8. Make it REALLY EASY to get EVERY CODEC.

9. Install Wine, and while you're at it, fix wine so that you can easily create a launcher on the desktop to any windows app, running under wine, that runs like intended right off the bat.

10. Have a gorgeous theme by default. For some reason the Ubuntu crowd is obsessed with shit brown. This is the part that is easiest to beat Ubuntu on.

Do this, and Debian will be THE distro for everyone, and easily supplant Ubuntu, Windows, and Mac OS X.

Do it not, and remain the odd arcane distro that only a few back room IT nerds use while half assed FOSS OSes (that duplicate each other's efforts, and rarely work that well out of the box) continually lag behind the corporate behemoths that have already got themselves pre installed on 90% of sold computers as it is (Windows/Mac).

I mean, or just stay private and personal, and to hell with saving the world, which seems like the current Linux mantra.

rhY

Debian on the desktop (1)

freefm (1083689) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660361)

Man, they really hauled ass and have some killer desktop features that rival Ubuntu's tbr, like restricted drivers install. I might check this out over ubuntu, 'cause I know how stable a server it is. Good show!

Any chances of KDE 4? (1)

ranga_the_don (956067) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660367)

Does it bundle KDE4 by chance?

So, which version of Ubuntu is this? (2, Funny)

FMota91 (1050752) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660381)

*looks around innocently*

Re:So, which version of Ubuntu is this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660613)

Farty Frog :-)

Re:So, which version of Ubuntu is this? (4, Insightful)

alienmole (15522) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660729)

It's Ubuntu's dad.

Re:So, which version of Ubuntu is this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660923)

This could be seen as a perfectly valid question, considering how Debian Sarge and Ubuntu Hoary achieved a good level of binary compatibility.
So, to recast this, will some/all Etch binaries run on Ubuntu Dapper (last long-term release), Edgy (current stable release) or Feisty (in beta, to be released Real Soon Now)? Or vice versa?
Debian's long release cycle has at least the advantage that packagers have a stable platform to aim for, which means that several closed-source packages (e.g. Gizmo, a VOIP app) offer debian packages.

Great! But . . . (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660401)

does it run on Linux?

Re:Great! But . . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660431)

Mod Dumbass.

Next testing is "Lenny" (5, Informative)

cyber_rigger (527103) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660405)


Debian's next testing version will be code named "Lenny" (from the movie Toy Story).

http://times.debian.net/1034-Release-update:-Etch+ 1-=-Lenny,-Call-for-Testing,-Time-shift [debian.net]

Re:Next testing is "Lenny" (1)

MsGeek (162936) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660479)

My question: when are they going to call a Debian release "Wheeze" after the penguin toy? Oh. Wait. I know.

Re:Next testing is "Lenny" (2, Funny)

marcello_dl (667940) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660643)

So, in my usual way to celebrate a debian release let me say:

when will Lenny be out?

Should I upgrade my new server? (2, Interesting)

ZakuSage (874456) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660407)

I just put it together and installed Sarge yesterday, and I'd rather keep things running stable on it after all that work. Does Etch have any showstopping bugs that would stop a 'apt-get dist-upgrade'? Will it fuck up my apache, proftpd, sshd, or smb servers? Anything I should really know before letting some 600 or so packages change?

Re:Should I upgrade my new server? (3, Informative)

fo0bar (261207) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660439)

Does Etch have any showstopping bugs that would stop a 'apt-get dist-upgrade'? Will it fuck up my apache, proftpd, sshd, or smb servers? Anything I should really know before letting some 600 or so packages change?

Yes, read the release notes [debian.org] for the answers to those questions. (and much much more! act today!)

Re:Should I upgrade my new server? (1)

MrDomino (799876) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660449)

There's currently a dodgy bug where udev assigns devices different names than the install system, sometimes causing the system to not boot. It's easily fixable by editing your fstab, but can recur; you might want to hold off on upgrading if you're using strange drivers for your disks.

Re:Should I upgrade my new server? (1)

**loki969** (880141) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660743)

Just keep in mind what cymen mentioned in his/her post above:

If you have no test system and the machine is providing service to users then do not upgrade to .0 releases. It's simple common sense.

Missing package (5, Funny)

Bob54321 (911744) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660409)

Doesn't even include firefox...

Re:Missing package (1)

toufeeq (956984) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660451)

it's called iceweasel in debian.

Re:Missing package (2, Insightful)

hondamankev (1000186) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660529)

These guys are going to analtate themselves into oblivion. I know this is flamebait, but who takes a distro seriously with such jems such as;

1: "...the Debian Security Team may come to a point where supporting Mozilla products is no longer feasible and announce the end of security support for Mozilla products."

2: "register_globals ... is now finally deprecated on Debian systems"

lol?

It takes a skilled, yet very short bussed person to have any thing to do with such garbage.

Re:Missing package (1)

Daengbo (523424) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660641)

Debian should stop supporting Firefox if the two parties can't agree on the licensing. Just make Epiphany the default Gnome browser. I don't see the problem.

Re:Missing package (1)

Jussi K. Kojootti (646145) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660715)

1: "...the Debian Security Team may come to a point where supporting Mozilla products is no longer feasible and announce the end of security support for Mozilla products."
You do know that Mozilla does not support old releases (this includes security fixes)? Debian has two choices: backport security fixes themselves or stop support (for that version) entirely.

2: "register_globals ... is now finally deprecated on Debian systems"
What the hell is so funny in these quotes? I don't get it...

Re:Missing package (1)

LordLucless (582312) | more than 7 years ago | (#18661059)

I'm assuming the "register_globals" referred to is an old default setting for PHP, long known to be a major security hole. Turning it (along with magic quotes) off is one of the first things I do when setting up PHP on a new system. It's a bit two-faced for them claiming that they may not support Mozilla due to security concerns, while simultaneously saying that they're only just changing a default behaviour nefarious for security flaws.

The *only* serious distro (5, Funny)

alienmole (15522) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660779)

I'll see your flamebait and raise you...

Who takes a distro seriously
Oh please, does anyone other than script kiddies take any distro *other* than Debian seriously?
Let's see:
  • There's Gentoo for the script kiddie/ricer set
  • RedHat for the clueless corporate types who're lost if they can't use a purchase order to obtain it
  • Fedora for the lost souls who haven't yet figured out that it's never going to recover from RedHat's abandonment
  • Suse is a German distro owned by Novell -- see RedHat
  • Ubuntu is an ancient African word, meaning "I can't configure Debian" (as someone's sig once said)
  • Lots of other small distros with funny names that won't be around in two years time
OK, Slackware is great for hobbyists, I'll give you that.

So anwyay, which are the distros we're supposed to be taking seriously? Besides Debian?

Re:The *only* serious distro (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660845)

You forgot Mandrake

Re:The *only* serious distro (1)

alienmole (15522) | more than 7 years ago | (#18661225)

Mandrake... let me see... <googles>... nope, no such distro. I see one called "Mandriva"... ;-)

Re:The *only* serious distro (1)

regexes (1043434) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660975)

lol.. Thank you for this post. :-)

Re:Missing package (1)

JohnnyBigodes (609498) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660901)

If register_globals refers to the PHP configuration directive, then yes, I'm pretty much glad that it's deprecated (and I hate Debian myself).

For years now it's been practially deprecated in PHP code and it's already disabled in many other default installations, it's only good (and regular procedure) that Debian followed suit.

Re:Missing package (3, Informative)

wouterke (653865) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660965)

Just for clarity: Debian hasn't enabled register_globals in its default configuration since ages, either. The comment you refer to relates to security updates for PHP. Basically, it says "if you use register_globals anyway, you're on your own; we don't support that"

What's next? (0)

Deanodriver (962608) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660453)

What's next, Duke Nukem Forever? Damn, I can't make the Vista jokes anymore... :(

new debian still outdated (0, Flamebait)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660473)

i used debian on a few projects... projects where any kind of features, performance or even remotely up to date software is not required. the reason debian is falling apart is the politics and fucking attitude people get when entering the project. if you ask why a port is 3 years out of date, instead of getting a mature response like " no one there to maintain it" or " it breaks compatability with feature X we are working on it"... you get little smartarse comments about how your welcome to update it yourself. frankly after my experiences with debian, that project can fuck off and die, and i'll dance a happy little jig over it's grave.

Is it 1997 or 2007 ? (5, Interesting)

Muki (1083243) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660485)

As I was recovering from a spring flu, I was bored enough and decided to upgrade from sarge to etch on my trusty old 600Mhz 256MB Compaq Deskpro. For the most part it went smooth and nice, but what amazes me is why the X stuff is still somewhat awkward. Hardware is certainly not bleeding edge. Maybe I'm just without a clue after a decade of professional multiplatform unix administration, but it sure beats me why X stuff still needs to be this clumsy - we're in year 2007, aren't we - ? Recently I installed two Dell 2900's at work and with Fedora FC6 it was surely as smooth as ever could be. Now someone jumps in and tells that 'Debian is not intended to be easy'. OK, but how is this intended to boost anyone's productivity to battle with stuff that was perhaps ok back in the early 90's ? Debian is such a stable (pun intended) and rock-solid platform to run servers on, I sure like it, but I'd like to see some minor refinements in getting wheels to roll. Used to run sarge at work, used to set up sarge systems for friends small businesses and home use, but have since then moved on to Fedora due to these unnecessary issues. Beat the living daylight out of me but I just don't feel like attacking the xorg.conf or XF....conf with vi anymore "cool" these days. Especially on very common hardware. Other than that, thanks for the debian folks for the release !

Re:Is it 1997 or 2007 ? (1)

wellingj (1030460) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660547)

I have generally stuck to Ubuntu on the laptop for ease of use,
but Debian has really gained some polish in this latest stable version so I'm running it on my Desktop.
So far I have no complaints. Etch did a lot better job configuring X than Sarge did when I installed it
on my circa 2002 IBM NetVista (odd name now...) with a 1.7 Celeron, which only has 256mb ram. Gnome
worked fine on startup, but I quickly installed Xfce (Fluxbox had some kind of problem but I didn't look
to hard into it) and now it's every bit as snappy as my computer at work (HP laptop, Win XP, 1G ram, Core Duo 1.8)

go figure.....

Re:Is it 1997 or 2007 ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660583)

Sorry, what awkwardness are you referring to? None of my sarge systems have required any adjustments to the X configuration when upgrading to etch, which is what you seem to suggest happened to you. And setting up X on a new etch system is certainly more refined than sarge was, thanks in part to the switch to Xorg 7.1. A specific bug report about the problems you encountered, with video hardware details, would surely do much more to help us get it right for the next time than posting a complaint in a slashdot comment.

Re:Is it 1997 or 2007 ? (1)

Muki (1083243) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660611)

I agree - you have a point there - dunno how I missed the obvious - should've taken a detailed log on the events and put some feedback as in a bug report back to debian.org. I guess I still had some fever...or maybe it was a spontaneous act on my behalf ? The Xorg is a very welcome feature indeed. Will you allow me to test this sarge -> etch on another machine and keep a log on what I do and what happens ? This way I could come up with a usable bug report, should the problem come up again. I'd like to see a fresh etch install and another case upgrading from existing sarge to etch. When it comes to bug reporting, apparently I didn't have a clue ;)

Re:Is it 1997 or 2007 ? (5, Funny)

Jussi K. Kojootti (646145) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660721)

For the most part it went smooth and nice, but what amazes me is why the X stuff is still somewhat awkward. Hardware is certainly not bleeding edge
apt is pretty magical, but expecting a dist-upgrade to upgrade your hardware is a bit much.

Re:Is it 1997 or 2007 ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660751)

It won't teach you language comprehension either.

He means his hardware isn't bleeding edge.

dammit! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660629)

I just finished downloading 3.1r6 (7 disks) on my 9600 baud modem yesterday. Please, Debian, stop releasing new versions so quickly.

Re:dammit! (3, Funny)

alienmole (15522) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660805)

Try having the CDs mailed to you -- you'll get higher bandwidth that way. 'Course, the ping times suck.

Upgrade (3, Informative)

Craig Ringer (302899) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660767)

The upgrade seems smooth enough, though it's rougher than woody -> sarge was for me. Then again, I'm running much more complex systems now.

- squid may break if you use it for transparent proxying. It wants the "transparent" option after the listern directive(s) now to enable transproxying, but never used to.

- the xlibs upgrade does not go well if it can't remove everything in certain directories. In particular, having the jedit package installed screws this up badly. I had to do some manual fixing to get this working.

- Make really, really sure you have enough room in /var/backups when you upgrade slapd, or it'll require some hand fixing and a db4.2_recover.

- You'll probably want to use the maintainer's CUPS config, then re-configure it to your specs. The CUPS config has changed a lot and is not really compatible.

- cyrus delivery socket permissions may need resetting if you use cyrus & postfix.

Overall, though, for a system as complex as my servers, the process was largely fuss free.

Re:Upgrade (1)

javifs (667756) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660885)

It would help other Debian users if you either submitted a bug report to the upgrade-reports package describing your expirience and the problems you encountered, or, even better, a bug to the release-notes package to document these issues. Some of them might even be fixed for the next point release, and the bugs will be forwarded to the package maintainers so that etch's packages are fixed. Contributing these issues back to developers is really simple, just read http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/reportingbug s [debian.org]

New? (0, Redundant)

VincenzoRomano (881055) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660789)

From the announcement page:

K Desktop Environment 3.5.5a
GNOME desktop environment 2.14
OpenOffice.org 2.0.4a
GIMP 2.2.13
PostgreSQL 8.1.8
After 21 months of continuus development is seems they left something behind!

YEAH!!! (-1, Troll)

MarsDude (74832) | more than 7 years ago | (#18660813)

I've heard they finally switched over to the 2.4 kernel !

YOU FAIl IT? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18660819)

sure 7hat I've

Debian - still alive? (0, Troll)

diwadm (765932) | more than 7 years ago | (#18661179)

With the advent of Ubuntu, does anyone have any reason to use Debian?
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