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Team Fortress 2 Has PC/360 Cross Platform Play

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the we-can-all-just-get-along dept.

XBox (Games) 79

IGN has an in-depth article with Valve Engineer Robin Walker, TF2 Project Lead Charlie Brown, and Marketing Director Doug Lombardi, talking all about the Team Fortress 2 project. Along with details on class clarification, the look of the game, and map design decisions, the Valve folks confirm that 360/PC cross platform play is already in the game. "IGN: So you're actually playing now on Xbox 360s connected to PCs? Doug Lombardi: Technically it's done. Robin Walker: From our perspective, we did the Xbox port of Half-Life internally, and we did that because we wanted to have the expertise from doing that. Like controller expertise and all the sorts of decisions you've got to make that are different on consoles we wanted to have that in-house because we knew we'd be doing more Xbox titles and more console titles. And so the same guys that did that are working on TF2, we have all the tweaks we did to the controls, the sticks and everything."

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finally (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18692063)

a chance to demonstrate why KB+M > gamepad for FPS

Re:finally (2, Informative)

Fallen Kell (165468) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692115)

Too bad they will probably cheat on the console and add in a snap-aim type action...

Re:finally (1)

Jaqenn (996058) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692419)

Too bad they will probably cheat on the console and add in a snap-aim type action...
Probably as a server variable, and it'll get turned off by some portion of the servers.

Re:finally (1)

Cornflake917 (515940) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694857)

Yeah, and you totally won't be able cheat/hack the PC version.

Re:finally (3, Informative)

Mprx (82435) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694051)

This was already demonstrated with Dreamcast Quake 3 vs PC Quake 3. Overwhelming victory for keyboard+mouse, as expected.

Re:finally (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18695183)

All I see is posts about "OMG KB+M > CONTROLLER, mwahaha". You're forgetting all the recent consoles SUPPORT keyboard + mouse. All you gotta do is buy a USB version and plug it in. I'm sure they've included support in the code to make this work (I develop on a 360 and use a keyboard for debugging purposes all the time).

This point is moot and it's sad to see 100 posts on this subject.

Re:finally (1)

Toridas (742267) | more than 7 years ago | (#18696823)

This point is moot and it's sad to see 100 posts on this subject.

Why is that?

moot Function: adjective 1 a : open to question : DEBATABLE b : subjected to discussion : DISPUTED

Re:finally (1)

SCPRedMage (838040) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699211)

Yeah, the XBox360 and the PS3 (and the PS2) have USB ports. Yeah, they support USB keyboards and mice. But that doesn't mean jack if the developer doesn't put support for them in the game.

Re:finally (2, Funny)

ZDRuX (1010435) | more than 7 years ago | (#18695731)

Damn! You beat me to this :) I was just going to point out how sorry I feel for all the 16 year old xbox fanboi's out there thinking they're tough shit and watch them scream and cry like little girls as they get chewed apart by PC gamers :)

Re:finally (1)

the dark hero (971268) | more than 7 years ago | (#18703095)

Damn! You beat me to this :) I was just going to point out how sorry I feel for all the 16 year old xbox fanboi's out there thinking they're tough shit and watch them scream and cry like little girls as they get chewed apart by PC gamers :)
but the 16 year-old "tough shit" PC gamer problem remains unsolved.

Oh WOW! (0, Redundant)

0racle (667029) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692097)

I mean this is amazing, no one has ever done this before. Those guys must be so talented.

Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (4, Insightful)

onion2k (203094) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692117)

Looks like the old "Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard" debate might finally be resolved then.

When all of us PC gamers pwn the 360 players to hell, daily, using our superior control mechanism.

Err...yeah...sorry...that was my inner fanboy speaking.

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (3, Insightful)

oni (41625) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692457)

When all of us PC gamers pwn the 360 players to hell, daily, using our superior control mechanism.
I just came in here to say the same exact thing - but I see that you have everything under control.

I predict 360-only servers will be set up after a very short time due to all the whining.

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (2, Insightful)

MarcoAtWork (28889) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692581)

what makes you think that you'll have to aim as precisely on the console as on the PC to score a hit? Also I think you'll be surprised by just how good some console players are... I wouldn't be surprised if at the top top top level maybe PC players will slightly edge console players, however at lower levels it will be a wash.

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (2, Insightful)

brkello (642429) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693237)

Because there is no way they are going to give you auto-aim in multiplayer even if you are using a controller. Think about it...it is just an input device. If they add the feature to auto-aim for the controller than KB+M players get it too.

I have no doubt there are people very good with controllers...but the precision and speed of KB+M just blows away a controller. It isn't a slight edge...it is a huge one and the top KB+M player will destroy the players using controllers.

No argument that there will be horrible players either way. I just don't think you understand how much precision you lose using a controller.

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (1)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693371)

Why do you see a foregone conclusion that auto-aim for console clients means auto-aim for PC clients? There's no logic behind that statement at all, and no reason it couldn't be done.

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (1)

crabpeople (720852) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693583)

Autoaim would be boring. Why even bother playing if there was autoaim? So you can see how good the computer aims for you?

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (1)

Kelbear (870538) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694377)

Auto-aim is present in the majority of console shooters, and those games are selling just fine. The effectiveness of the auto-aim varies from game to game, and the game mechanics themselves are sometimes adjusted to de-emphasize aiming as the principle factor in victory for console shooters.

Why? Because it's true, KB+M > control sticks as an input. These changes are put in there to make up for the handicap. If MS would just let KB+M mouse be implemented for the Xbox360, then that's what would be the primary input, but MS doesn't want to let that happen.

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (1)

RexRhino (769423) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694627)

No it wouldn't... How would I use a keyboard and mouse on my sofa?

I play video games as a leisure activity... Keyboard and mouse may offer more precise control, but they are way less fun as you can only play sitting at a desk.

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (1)

LordBafford (1087463) | more than 7 years ago | (#18701061)

Not really, you can have a tv Tray in from of u on the sofa to use a KB+M, this just shows how inferior console players are.

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (2, Insightful)

Some_Llama (763766) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694071)

"Also I think you'll be surprised by just how good some console players are"

They are good because they have mastered hand eye coordination WITH THE TOOLS AT HAND. The big difference here is that you have 2 completely different control schemes, one that allows for 1000 points of granularity (kb+m) and one that is a very limited range of direct movement (up/down/left/right/diagonal).

This isn't about a level playing field, the control mechanisms will completely skew this in favor of KB+M.

Then factor in the preset speed of movement with a console and it's all over...

If anyone wants a little first hand proof I submit the following.. go get a MS sidewinder game pad, hook it up to your PC and jump in a game of regular quake, CS, TFC, COD.

Let me know how good you do. (compared to normally using a KB+M)
(alternatively you could just count the number of PC gamers who use gamepads, one hand should do).

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (1)

Danse (1026) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694903)

If anyone wants a little first hand proof I submit the following.. go get a MS sidewinder game pad, hook it up to your PC and jump in a game of regular quake, CS, TFC, COD.

Interesting story though, I used to play Unreal Tournament as part of a clan. One of the guys, who was easily in the top 3 of us skill-wise and had uncanny aim, used a joystick to play. Don't remember what kind it was, but it was basically similar to the Saitek Cyborg stick that I had. I actually watched him playing a couple times at lan parties. It was just weird to me, but it worked great for him. Fortunately though, I think that overall, PC players will dominate gamepad players.

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (1)

Some_Llama (763766) | more than 7 years ago | (#18695015)

"One of the guys, who was easily in the top 3 of us skill-wise and had uncanny aim, used a joystick to play."

I have seen _one_ other PC player who used a joystick and trackball combo when playing CS, it is a strange sight (to be sure) but i didn't see any benefit as he wasn't any better than anyone else who used the standard. of course in games with flight (battlefield) he had a distinct advantage because of his familiarity.

How did he use the joystick? For movement or aiming? I didn't think you could control aiming with joysticks.. (in my example he used the joy for movement and the trackball for aiming).

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (1)

Danse (1026) | more than 7 years ago | (#18695307)

He used the keyboard for movement and the stick for aiming. Don't remember if he used reversed y-axis or not. Apparently it could be done. I just couldn't figure out why anyone would want to do it.

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (1)

mrchaotica (681592) | more than 7 years ago | (#18696335)

I just couldn't figure out why anyone would want to do it.

If it was a real joystick (as opposed to those tiny useless thumb sticks that console controllers have nowadays), it would actually be rather similar to aiming a pistol (depending on whether it was configured for absolute or relative positioning).

Not just the aim (2, Insightful)

Ahnteis (746045) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694297)

It's not just about the aim. It's about the ability to turn 90 or 180 degrees with the flick of a wrist. The same "insta-aim" that is possible with a mouse also makes for instant turning and THAT is a huge advantage that seems to be overlooked every time this debate comes up.

Why should it be like that? (1)

Corngood (736783) | more than 7 years ago | (#18701891)

Why should the mouse position be directly proportional to the angle of the character? It's the way it's usually done, but it reduces it to point and click if you don't have to take into account the physical properties of the character. Imagine playing super mario brothers or r-type using a mouse, where the character directly follows the cursour around the screen. It would certainly be easier, but in what way would it be more fun or rewarding?

A player will expect _not_ to be in direct control of the characters position (something hits you, you can fall, etc), so why expect to be in direct control of the direction he's pointing? Gamepad controls usually impose a maximum angular rate for the character, you could do the same for mouse (I'm sure some games have done this already).

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (4, Insightful)

Das Modell (969371) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692673)

I recently played Doom 3 on the Xbox. I eventually got pretty good at controlling it, but it was still a far cry from playing with a mouse. Pad users will be totally slaughtered in a high speed game like TF2 unless mouse users are gimped or pad users are given heavy autoaim. Gimping mouse users will obviously make them extremely unhappy.

This can only end in tears. What is Valve thinking?

Re:Joypad vs Mouse+Keyboard (1)

Traa (158207) | more than 7 years ago | (#18697907)

You know they are going to "balance" the Mouse+Keyboard vs Joypad very soon after those 360 whiners are getting whooped silly right?

One horrible scenario: On the 360 your targets will 'lock' on when you are aiming roughly in the right direction.

Next, auto aim.

*shrug*

As a member of Clan Erinyes, from the awesome era of Team Fortress Classic (anyone remember us?), I am still really looking forward to TF2.

Traa-[CE]

2 options (3, Insightful)

ben there... (946946) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692201)

1) Console players will get owned by PC players. Console gamers will either segregate to their own servers or give up.

2) They give console players auto-aim or some other cheat. There won't be a level playing field so you won't be able to tell how good a player actually is.

Re:2 options (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692261)

They give console players auto-aim or some other cheat. There won't be a level playing field so you won't be able to tell how good a player actually is.

After almost beating HL2 I discovered to my dismay that it has auto-aim, and it was turned on.

I turned it off and things worked much better for me thereafter, although with a gamepad you definitely need it.

Point is, auto-aim can fuck you up just as much as it can help you. Especially with slower projectiles.

Re:2 options (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18694075)

Agreed. Halo PC had some kind of autoaim for the plasma weapons that made them nearly impossible to use at longer ranges. I could easily score headshots on moving enemies from a long range while leading to compensate for the slow projectiles IF they wouldn't automatically get sent towards the enemy's current position.

Maybe I'm just a jaded PC FPS fan but I simply can't imagine playing a game where you sort of aim at the enemy using an inaccurate controller and let the game do the rest.

Re:2 options (3, Insightful)

tacroy (813477) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692531)

To be fair, if the dev's put in autoaim then it wouldn't be a cheat but a game mechanic that is a pro/con of the control you choose to use. Its class balancing for control schemes.

Re:2 options (1)

tzhuge (1031302) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694121)

3)Divide players by skill level based on performance metrics regardless of their control scheme

I suspect the gap b/t wasd and gamepad user amongst average players will be a lot smaller than people expect. Factors like familiarity with a particular level, and general experience playing a particular game have a big effect on player performance in FPS games.

Re:2 options (1)

Danse (1026) | more than 7 years ago | (#18695247)

I suspect the gap b/t wasd and gamepad user amongst average players will be a lot smaller than people expect. Factors like familiarity with a particular level, and general experience playing a particular game have a big effect on player performance in FPS games.

I think that you'll have both PC and XBox players that get very good at the game and know the levels. And I think you'll find that the top ranks will be populated by the best PC players, followed by a mix of the best XBox players and the good PC players, and that trend will continue downward.

The same interview also states (1)

RichPowers (998637) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692487)

That X360 servers will be limited to 16 players. PC players can fight against 24 (or more). What motivation is there for PC and X360 players to fight in the same server, especially given the difficulty in balancing keyboard&mouse with the Xbox controller?

Re:The same interview also states (1)

thecalster (1081075) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693119)

The motivation will be if PC users are using a 360 controller for their game.

Re:The same interview also states (1)

bclark (858016) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694585)

The obvious motivation to me is that you can play with friends who may not have, or may only have, 360s.

Re:The same interview also states (2, Insightful)

Mprx (82435) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694915)

For the PC gamers, the motivation is the same as for griefing in any game. Being able to repeatedly kill the X360 players with very little effort is amusing to some people, and given past experience of PC vs console FPS gaming this is exactly what will happen (Dreamcast Quake 3).

Good luck... (1)

igotmybfg (525391) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692623)

..to all you 360 owners, you're gonna get pwnd!

Not the original plan... (4, Funny)

Tickenest (544722) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692635)

It should be noted that back when development on TF2 started, they had this feature working, but at that time it was to connect the Commodore 64 and the NES versions. Due to delays in development, though, they switched to more modern systems over the years several times (I was most looking forward to the Tandy-SNES linkup, myself.)

Re:Not the original plan... (1)

AndersOSU (873247) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693215)

I don't know my favorite linkup was the Atari 2600 running TFC2 to Apple IIe runnin Duke Nukem Forever.

I love TFC (1)

Turn-X Alphonse (789240) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692753)

I love TFC, played it for years, but Valve lost a customer the day they added adverts to Counter strike. They were done extremely poorly and they did not belong in the game to begin with.

Hence good luck Valve, but you pissed on your chips with this guy.

Re:I love TFC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18693443)

Which is why we have Fortress Forever.

Re:I love TFC (1)

crabpeople (720852) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693615)

Thats weird. Maybe i'm just playing on different servers, but I play CS daily and haven't seen any ads. Are they in the maps or in the client?

Re:I love TFC (1)

Turn-X Alphonse (789240) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693799)

I know they are in both Dusts and have been for a while in classic CS.

Re:I love TFC (1)

Some_Llama (763766) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693931)

I have only seen it in CS 1.6 myself, not in source so far (although some maps do have user created ads, like the one for the money voting mod).

You can see it when you bring up the scores/player list.

Re:I love TFC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18695495)

So, you're complaining that they put ads in a game that they gave away for free? Shame on them.

Re:I love TFC (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699151)

Since when is it free? CS 1.6 may be free if you already have Half-Life, but it's far from free. Similarly, Source isn't even necessarily included in Half-Life 2, unless you get a decent bundle.

Re:I love TFC (1)

LordBafford (1087463) | more than 7 years ago | (#18701245)

The server i play on has ads it's 1.6 CS, and valve didn't really give the game aways for free, the people who made it did, then eventually, due to it's popularity sold it to valve. So cs 1.6 is free if u had HL1, CSS is not free at all.

Control mechanisms (2, Insightful)

deadhammer (576762) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692901)

Differences in control schemes will make a difference, possibly eliminating a level playing field. This leads me to two conclusions: either they're going to somehow tweak the Xbox control scheme (and by "tweak", I mean "enable cheating"), or they're going to dumb down the PC control scheme. Odds on favorite: the latter.

Re:Control mechanisms (1)

Puff of Logic (895805) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698275)

This is my fear. I'd already like to give a lot of people at the Microsoft gaming division a solid kick in the nads for creating an environment in which what would have been great PC games end up feeling like half-assed ports because they need to be console (360) friendly. I was already cringing when I heard that TF2 was going to be released for the 360 as well as the PC, and the announcement of cross-platform multiplayer really has me scared. I try to be pretty relaxed about gaming and don't usually engage in vitriol about consoles vs. consoles, or consoles vs. PCs, but it's starting to feel like my "home" platform is getting polluted by crap. Dammit, Valve, let the prepubescent dipshits and Madden wannabes play on their own servers, and let the PC community (replete with our own individuals fulfilling Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory) play the game without being gimped.

Of course, once I take a deep breath, other possibilities suggest themselves. Perhaps the devs will say "screw it" and just let the KB+M/controller thing ride out without trying to balance it. Maybe they'll only try to balance it on mixed servers, but leave PC gamers ungimped on PC-only servers. Maybe I should just go get a beer. Yes, that's the ticket. Mmmm, beer.

Oh well now I HAVE TO buy it. (2, Funny)

My name is Bucket (1020933) | more than 7 years ago | (#18692925)

I want to be there on Day One when the smack-talking 12-year-olds join their first game and get trounced before they can turn halfway around.

Of course, it's possible that 360 will support key+mouse. Even so, XBox Live is a cesspool of pubescent filth. I tried it exactly once and it convinced me NEVER to invest in a USB headset.

Re:Oh well now I HAVE TO buy it. (1)

Stevecrox (962208) | more than 7 years ago | (#18695199)

yeah i will be nice to the those annoying kids to get their arse kicked once the xbox players join in be even funnier to see them lose to controllers,

wait your talking about the xbox?

Re:Oh well now I HAVE TO buy it. (1)

revengebomber (1080189) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699023)

Your lack of capitalization reveals your true nature. Do not attempt further usage of a keyboard, my friend; you may accidentally injure your fingers by jamming them between the keys in a violent display of futility.

Re:Oh well now I HAVE TO buy it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18700561)

As it currently stands, MS is still not allowing a mouse & keyboard on the 360. It sucks. I TOTALLY agree about the KB/M thing and I refuse to play FPS's on my 360 (or on my old xbox before that) due to the whole joystick thing. It's just too bad Halo and other FPS do so well on the consoles - we'd get a mouse option if they didn't. As it stands, there is little hope they will allow it.

There was an item called 'the claw' for the xbox - it basically added a mouse & keboard (ala the hand keyboards you can get for the PZ, like ZFang) - M$ put a stop to it before it ever made it to the shelf.

First Page - Class Info (1)

endianx (1006895) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693029)

The link in the summary links to the 2nd page. Don't miss the first page for great information about class changes.

Controller versus Keyboard and Mouse (1)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693047)

Maybe it's the geeks I know, but they're just as comfortable with a 360 controller as they are with a Keyboard and Mouse. They all grew up on PC shooters from Wolfenstein on up. This whole debate has always struck me as largely a form of elitism on the part of PC gamers who are starting to get really marginalized by the newer consoles.

Re:Controller versus Keyboard and Mouse (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693169)

Maybe it's the geeks I know, but they're just as comfortable with a 360 controller as they are with a Keyboard and Mouse.

They may have the same level of comfort, but not the same level of skill. If you feel more comfortable playing gamepad vs gamepad than keyboard vs keyboard, that has nothing to do with whether a keyboard vs gamepad match would be fair.

This whole debate has always struck me as largely a form of elitism on the part of PC gamers who are starting to get really marginalized by the newer consoles.

You might think it's elitism, but the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. The mouse is just a more precise pointing device, and that fact will be borne out by the pile of corpses of xbox360 players.

Re:Controller versus Keyboard and Mouse (1)

KillaBeave (1037250) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693579)

I think you might be equating "aim" with "skill" which in many shooters simply isn't as true as it seems. In most of the shooters I find enjoyable, it's more about tactics than pure aiming and the map design reinforces this. Most of the maps are more enclosed and/or have strategically important choke-points and quite a bit of USEFUL cover. You may be able to run around out in the open, "twitch-killing" noobs and people with less than 60fps on the PC, but that likely won't work in these games. Your aim may be tremendously accurate and fast, but you're going to eventually have to walk through that door/corridor/whatever and I've got a better position and usually some decent backup.

What you may see though is less console snipers, with PC players assuming that role more often, and generally snipers fight mostly with other snipers (everyone else steers clear after the first few fall).

I'd wager that you won't see much console only clan vs. pc only clan matches (at least not ranked) because you generally try to keep it as even as possible in those and the pc guys will probably have better snipers.

That's just my guess, I could be way off though.

Re:Controller versus Keyboard and Mouse (1)

Mikloscorv (844885) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694255)

Aim itself is not this issue nor skill really. It is speed of aim. When you hit that choke point and see an enemy on the edge of the screen waiting to kill you, it takes longer for a player on a console with its steady one speed panning to turn towards the enemy than it does for PC player with a mouse who can twitch to face a new direction quickly. Consoles impose an artificial response time limitation that a mouse just doesn't have.

Re:Controller versus Keyboard and Mouse (1)

KillaBeave (1037250) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694541)

That's true, it's probably more the speed. The rotation speed you can get with a mouse is almost silly to be honest. I think even a SWAT guy would have difficulty doing a figure-skating style spin while holding a weapon. (It's been a while since I've played CS, but I remember practically throwing the mouse to the side sometimes to spin quickly.) My point was I'm already aiming at the door and don't have to turn and thus faster ;)

Re:Controller versus Keyboard and Mouse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18699205)

Most of the maps are more enclosed and/or have strategically important choke-points and quite a bit of USEFUL cover. You may be able to run around out in the open, "twitch-killing" noobs and people with less than 60fps on the PC, but that likely won't work in these games. Your aim may be tremendously accurate and fast, but you're going to eventually have to walk through that door/corridor/whatever and I've got a better position and usually some decent backup.

That guy setup in the perfect position is my favorite kind of guy to twitch-kill. Or just duck back behind the corner and cook a nade and lob it at him. He's the type most likely to complain that I cheated. Seriously, you have less than a second to zero in on a headshot, and I'm not even competition level. It takes, what, 200 ms to complete a 180 turn? You've already been shot it the back of the head 2-3 times by then. What if I get behind your front line and just shoot every single one of you 360 players in the back of the head? Nah, maybe I'll just twitch kill the first few then knife and nade the rest setup in their "better positions." It's especially fun knifing proners. So that's what I'll do. Please tell me there will be 360 clans to own. I'm drooling in anticipation.

Re:Controller versus Keyboard and Mouse (2, Insightful)

TobyWong (168498) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693529)

K&M is superior to gamepad for FPS and RTS games. In the same way, gamepad is superior to K&M for things like fighting, driving, and sports games (among others). It has nothing to do with what system you happen to be playing.

Re:Controller versus Keyboard and Mouse (1)

Some_Llama (763766) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693997)

"This whole debate has always struck me as largely a form of elitism on the part of PC gamers who are starting to get really marginalized by the newer consoles."

I take it you haven't done a lot of gaming on BOTH console and PC FPS?

I have played both the Halo PC port and the console, I could hold my own on the PC port (and own somewhat, not really my game of choice) but just got trounced on the console... the major factor is mouse speed, in the pc version, with a quick flick of the wrist, you can spin around and shoot the guy behind you WHILE keeping the aim level, with the console you are limited by the default turning speed of the game and the quad x axis (8 axis?), +/Dpad only has 8 direct directions you can move, up, down, left, right, and 4 points of diagonal.

A good analogy would be trying to paint a picture with an etch-a-sketch compared to pen and paper, there is just finer controls possible with a mouse (plus faster turn speeds).

Maybe I'm the only one who remembers... (1)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693531)

As I recall from my (extremely heavy) TFC playing days, there are several classes for whom precision of aiming isn't really a concern. You don't have to be super fast to lay a bomb trap, for instance, and I don't think having a mouse will make a turret more effective. Unless they've completely gimped the classes to make them all Battefield style shooters, I don't really see this as being an issue. Console players will just tend towards the non-precision classes and things will probably even out.

Re:Maybe I'm the only one who remembers... (1)

Thoughtform (595898) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693707)

My experience has been with mostly regular Quake TF, but the Engineer and Demoman classes still benefit from precision aiming. The Engineer's railgun is actually a dangerous weapon and an important part of their arsenal. Also, most good Demomen used pipebombs as their primary weapon, detonating them in mid-air near their opponents.

Re:Maybe I'm the only one who remembers... (1)

Dr. Eggman (932300) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693745)

I dunno, I can't imagine a good TFC team without atleast a few snipers. As a major fan of the engineering class, I'm glad I'll be getting the PC version. Navigating the build menu(s) of the engineer probably won't be as easy on the 360. Unless the pace of TF2 is slower than TFC, I always found speedy turret placement, upgrade, and repair to be very important. I fear (ok, maybe relish) the possibility that 360 teams will be nearly all demos, heavies, spies, and pyros with maybe a few two soldiers, engineers, and scouts. Medics and snipers are likly to be unpopular with 360 controls, I think.

KB/M == Controller (1)

ForCripeSake (932432) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693699)

I was having this discussion with my X-Box toting friends a couple weeks ago, and what really stood out from the conversation was the fact that to them, the KB/M is wierd to use when playing FPS games. One of them uses a console keyboard/Mouse setup because he couldn't make the transition to controllers, and he does not have a clear advantage over his thumb-sticking counterparts.

I feel this debate is a lot like arguing over which musical instrument is better. Obviously, its the one you've been playing with for 5+ years.

Re:KB/M == Controller (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18694587)

The KB/M setups for xbox are in no way like a PC KB/M setup. The xbox still thinks you have a normal xbox controller so you don't get any of the mouse advantages like being able to snap turn and proper aiming.

Arguably true (2, Funny)

argStyopa (232550) | more than 7 years ago | (#18693807)

Yes, as far as I can tell, TF2 plays PRECISELY as well on my PC as it does on my XboX360.

Somehow, I'm less than satisfied, however. Do you think they will remember my pre-rder from what, 1998?

Re:Arguably true (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 7 years ago | (#18695613)

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if any of the team members from the original Team Fortress mod are still involved with the project?

I ask because TF was pretty much the greatest mod for Quake (and I must have played hundreds of mods), their follow-on Team Fortress Classic (called such to prevent confusion with TF2 of course) was a great mod as well, and both were free, gifts to mankind as it were. That's a lot of positive karma as far as I'm concerned, even if their great plans for the true sequel didn't pan out.

But if none of them are still on, I'd feel much less bad refering to TF2 as "Team Daikatana" or "Team Fortress Forever". :)

Re:Arguably true (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18696315)

One half of the original Quake-World-Team-Fortress mod team (Robin Walker)is interviewed in TFA, and the other half (John Cook) is employed by Valve.

Re:Arguably true (1)

mrchaotica (681592) | more than 7 years ago | (#18696403)

But if none of them are still on, I'd feel much less bad refering to TF2 as "Team Daikatana" or "Team Fortress Forever". :)

[Team] Fortress Forever [fortress-forever.com] is already taken.

Re:Arguably true (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18697621)

Yes. Robin Walker was one of the authors of the Quake Team Fortress mod.

He was also an exceptional Quake deathmatch player in his day :).

Quake 4 tells the tale of the tape (1)

b laurienti (1056338) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694169)

As being a computer game player and an xbox game player, and have played Quake 4 on both... There's no way that I can do a 180 diagnal turn while falling from 200 feet and rail a guy that's also falling shooting at me with a plasma gun on an xbox with a controller... But I can do it all the time on the computer with a keyboard and mouse!

I just hope something comes out soon. (1)

Associate (317603) | more than 7 years ago | (#18694681)

Whether it be TF2 or Fortress Forever, we need something to come out that can breath new life into my beloved Girlpower server.

Re:I just hope something comes out soon. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18695657)

well, before you guys get too excited

IM GUNNA RAPE 360 GAMERZ WITH MY M/K!!!!!

remember that in order to play against 360 owners you'll need to be on Windows Live.

Bring it on! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18701949)

Q: How do you call a PC player surrounded by a bunch of console players?
A: A Jedi.
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