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The End is Nigh for XP

samzenpus posted more than 7 years ago | from the it's-curtains-for-you dept.

Microsoft 893

SlinkySausage writes "Computer makers have been told they'll no longer be able to get Windows XP OEM by the end of this year, despite strong ongoing demand for the OS. Analysts and computer makers are wondering if the move is premature given Vista's ongoing performance and compatibility issues. Dell recently said it would reintroduce XP on a range of machines due to customer demand but Microsoft will only allow this until the end of the year."

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Will anyone gain anything from this? (5, Insightful)

Reverse Gear (891207) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698799)

Is it just me or does this move from Microsoft seem rather desperate?
Was Microsofts older versions of Windows phased out this fast too?
I guess the people at Microsoft have a really hard time accepting that many people (and companies!) have gotten comfortable with XP and does not want to get something different. Maybe Microsoft have been taking to long to come with a "new OS" this time?

I think this will definitely be a good thing for those who wish more people would use Linux on the desktop and possible also laptop market. People like Mark Shuttleworth and his fanboys can start cheering already.
I myself am no longer so certain that getting everyone to use Linux is what is best for Linux as a whole right now.
My main reason for thinking this is seeing how little Ubuntu contributes to the rest of the "open-source community".
Maybe I am wrong, in that case I would love to hear why.

I gladly leave the picking up of unsatisfied Windows users to other flavors of Linux, I myself prefer to stick with Gentoo and wish that all the developers at Gentoo would realize that Gentoo just isn't and is not supposed to become an "click and go" OS.

Others who will cheer at this news will probably be those trying to earn some money by selling cracked software, only this time people are not going to come to them to get the newest software but will want the "good old XP". I don't think they care much though, as long as they can make money.
Maybe there will even become a real market for buying and selling those XP-licenses that people have lying around?

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? (4, Insightful)

thePsychologist (1062886) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698897)

My main reason for thinking this is seeing how little Ubuntu contributes to the rest of the "open-source community".


I don't know how much Ubuntu developers/official people contribute to the community directly (whatever that means), but because there are thousands of people moving to Linux because Ubuntu exists (Ubuntu is what got me to switch), there is a large increase of patches (most software on Ubuntu isn't Ubuntu exclusive), guides + FAQs + community help (which makes Linux and more user-friendly), bug reports, and a greater exposure to Linux in general. How is that a little contribution to the community?

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (-1)

SpecialAgentXXX (623692) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698913)

Everytime there's a negative article about Windows, there's always the comment that Linux will pick up those dissatisfied customers and will soon have a significant desktop marketshare. Honestly, it's not going to happen. For all of the quirks and problems that Vista has (I bought a Dell laptop with Vista but installed XP instead), it is still much, much simpler than Linux for your average user: mom & pop, teenage / college kids, young professionals.

Eventually, as it always happens, there will be bug releases and new drivers for Windows Vista. Upgrading to them is as easily as doing "Windows Update." Linux (and BSD) distros will never be this easily patched due to the very nature of being open source. I only have to go to 1 web site to update my PC's - Windows Update - and it's incredibly simple - just click on Update and voila, it's done and everything works.

And the vast majority of forced Windows users are corporations. They have Windows Server 2003, Outlook, NetMeeting, etc. all integrated into their back office systems. They are not going to switch out their entire infrastructure to Linux due to some OEM issues. They have contracts with MS and will continue to receive support for XP, including on new PCs for new-hires. Additionally, the Midcap and Largecap corporations are not going to switch away from a DOW 30 stock's software (Microsoft) to a tiny / free software (Red Hat). All the bigwigs who sign deals knows that you can't go wrong with a Microsoft PC environment. No CEO or VP will risk his salary / retirement benefits / etc. by changing from MS to Linux.

And no, I'm not flaming anyone, I'm just saying how I see it as I work in I.T. as an MS sysadmin. :-)

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (4, Insightful)

gnuman99 (746007) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698953)

Eventually, as it always happens, there will be bug releases and new drivers for Windows Vista. Upgrading to them is as easily as doing "Windows Update." Linux (and BSD) distros will never be this easily patched due to the very nature of being open source. I only have to go to 1 web site to update my PC's - Windows Update - and it's incredibly simple - just click on Update and voila, it's done and everything works.

Really? Try doing that with non-MS software or you do not use any?

AutoDesk or Maya or OpenOffice or Turbo Tax or any other application you can think of that is not MS. Can you use Windows Update and it is incredibly simple?

Linux distros are MUCH easier to patch because they are open source and because they are distributions not just bare-bone OS. Last I checked, I could update my Debian boxes with just aptitude or apt-get. And any non-Debian software usually has their own archive or provides a deb file. And installing a deb file is usually easier than installing a .msi installation. And with the great new way that Vista works, the .msi files that require admin rights with custom actions may not run like they did in XP or older systems. (no more "and"s!)

Yes, I'm speaking from experience in all of these areas.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18699097)

For the Fedora users:
yum -y update

For Windows Users
Run Windows Update
Do you want to reboot now?
Later...
Do you want to reboot now?
Later...
Do you want to reboot now?
Oops I'm away from my desk for five minutes.
Come back. WHere's all my stuff!

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699101)

Users don't care about upgrades all that much. As long as it works, they won't bother. When they need a new feature, they buy a new CD, insert it, and click "Install" in the Autorun dialog which appears. It's simple enough.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (4, Insightful)

deimios666 (1040904) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699109)

Let us also not forget the bane of windows program updates: Every app wants to update itself with a separate updater that is started at boot time. So now you have Windows Update, Adobe Update, Java Update, Quicktime update, Corel update and whatnot starting with the desktop slowing your computer and eating up bandwidth while also annoying you... Also restarts are big PITA. I update some non-kernel component like paint and it needs a reboot. Linux distros at least use one app for updates. On the other hand most updates for linux aren't patches but new versions of programs. So downloads are HUGE compared to MS ones. Actually the winner of the update debate will be who can hide the updates being done form Joe User. Windows does a very poor job at that (every program wants to update itself and jumps into the face of the user, and I'm not even mentioning the 'restart needed' nagware) while some distros are better off but not truly automatic.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18699201)

Automatic is easy. I had by Gentoo box setup for automatic with a cron script (once a week), dont do that anymore tho, as i perfer to keep track of whats being installed. But in the end, if the "updates" are just that, and not totally new versions, then its quite easy to do with a cron script, if its not just updates, well, then you might screw yourself over when the look of a application changes (as has been done with GIMP several times). On the other hand, most users would just go "update", blinding doing what the automatic script would have done, so its basically 50/50.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699239)

This is an issue, but it's not a Microsoft issue. Other applications can hook into the Windows Update architecture (though I'm not entirely sure of the details of such). Much the same way as you can hook Office into it, currently.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18699253)

updating ANYTHING usually sucks ass.

you guys could argue this back and forth until you're blue in the face, and you know what...

updating shit will still suck.

so, shut up.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (2, Interesting)

laffer1 (701823) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698971)

I agree with some of this, but many other operating systems and distros include an equivalent to windows update. Mac OS has software update. Redhat, Ubuntu and many other linux distros include a gui software update like product. Microsoft doesn't even use a website anymore in vista. Its all an app that connects to a server (using HTTP or some other protocol). With Redhat EL 3 I could even get driver updates for some binary blob drivers pushed down. I think Suse has this also.

There are downsides to Linux, but this is not one of them. I think a few of the BSDs are going this route too. FreeBSD has a freebsd-update tool in 6.2. It downloads binary "patch" files and applies them to the userland/kernel for you. Its a new feature and still needs work. Its also a command line app. I haven't checked, but PC-BSD may tie into this also.. if not they could use their PBI system for that I would think.

We are in the planning stages with MidnightBSD for a software update and ports system. Our security officer has written a new patch generator to make src patches. This will integrate with our new mports mport tool. (think portupgrade + portinstall + portversion + pkg_add...) Some of this is already prototyped in perl and we plan to rewrite most of it in C as a library with a CLI and GNUstep gui.

Open source can be this easy. It should be this easy.

I don't think Linux will get customers over Microsoft's mistake. The few that would leave over vista will probably go to Apple. I doubt its going to be that significant though. Most people will suck it up in two or three years and adopt vista or its successor. Most people skip a windows release anyway.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (1)

oztiks (921504) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699019)

For all of the quirks and problems that Vista has (I bought a Dell laptop with Vista but installed XP instead), it is still much, much simpler than Linux for your average user: mom & pop, teenage / college kids, young professionals.

I don't agree with that statement, the differences between vista and xp are the same between macos and windows, and in this case windows and linux.

That argument could of been made a year ago, now its not the case.. Really its not, i have my 2nd language english speaking girlfriend who has used windows all her life switch over to ubuntu within a day, the only difference for her is the start button is at the top of the screen.

If it breaks she calls a techy (me) to fix it, If it were windows, same diff.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (3, Insightful)

oztiks (921504) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699067)

Eventually, as it always happens, there will be bug releases and new drivers for Windows Vista. Upgrading to them is as easily as doing "Windows Update." Linux (and BSD) distros will never be this easily patched due to the very nature of being open source. I only have to go to 1 web site to update my PC's - Windows Update - and it's incredibly simple - just click on Update and voila, it's done and everything works.

Again, wrong, Ubuntu has software update service siting in their version of the systray where windows has theirs.

And Microsofts turn around on patches have been worse then mac and Linux's track record in the past. Despite what you may think, Linux and MacOS foundation and design is better equipped to deal with legacy issues and the implementation patches. Microsoft has struggled continuously with this issue and if im correct recently struggled releasing a set of patches just the other day, I think this is the 3rd day in a row Microsoft had to do an update on my PC, the 2nd update left my pc with a memory violation which the next update had to fix.

My advise is really see the new and upcoming, linux developers arnet really that short sighted to allow the same issues that has always been an issue get in the way this time.

my mother uses Linux (5, Interesting)

danny (2658) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699077)

My mother has been using Linux for nearly five years now. There've been a few problems, but as someone who supports Windows users at work, I can confidently say there have been *far* fewer problems than there would have been had she been running Windows. In particular, there have been absolutely no problems with malware and viruses.

And the claim that Windows Update is better than update systems for Linux is so wrong it's not funny. Sure, Windows Update keeps Windows (and maybe Microsoft Office) updated. But what about all the other applications on the system? They come (if you're lucky) with their own update systems, all of which work differently. The Fedora Core system my mother is running includes image-editing software, messaging clients, etc. etc. all of which are kept updated by the same update systme.

Open Source makes it possible for a single distributor to manage updates for all the softare on the system. In contrast, it's impossible for Microsoft (or anyone else) to manage updates for Adobe and Qualcomm and Apple as well as for their own software.

Danny.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (5, Insightful)

oztiks (921504) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699103)

And the vast majority of forced Windows users are corporations. They have Windows Server 2003, Outlook, NetMeeting, etc. all integrated into their back office systems. They are not going to switch out their entire infrastructure to Linux due to some OEM issues.



They will if their IT officers actually took the time to see what the rest of the market offered. You'll find most of these "specific" solutions are not that specific to Microsoft branded software anymore. And if you can show the cost of migrating their systems to the new Microsoft software (all new vista etc) against other alternate solutions and show the definite cost advantage then businesses will defiantly change over.



The fear that you have as an sysadmin is (well founded however) the reason why your infrastructure wont change. Consider, You move over to open source and you fail doing so then yes you'll loose your job and look bad to your bosses. Pick a Microsoft solution to do the job and it fails, you'll keep your job and simply blame Microsoft for your failure.



AND THAT MY FRIEND! is a true tech admins duty these days :)

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (5, Insightful)

Heembo (916647) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699129)

For all of the quirks and problems that Vista has (I bought a Dell laptop with Vista but installed XP instead), it is still much, much simpler than Linux for your average user
With respect I submit that Windows is easier to use than Linux for even advanced Linux users. We don't choose to run and install Linux because its the EASY choice, we choose it cause its free, fast and stable.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (3, Informative)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699147)

Upgrading to them is as easily as doing "Windows Update." Linux (and BSD) distros will never be this easily patched due to the very nature of being open source.

Who modded this drivel "Insightful"?

Just about any Linux distro released in the past couple of years has an update tool which will not only patch the OS, but all of the applications as well. All of the additional tools you need to buy to make Windows useful have to be updated separately.

Linux is MUCH simpler than that.

I don't have to go to ANY website to update my current desktop (SLED 10), an icon glows orange in my toolbar, clicking it gives me the option to update.

I work in I.T. as an MS sysadmin.

That explains a lot.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (5, Interesting)

myxiplx (906307) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699163)

Huh? You really should go download Ubuntu.

I'm a Windows admin too, and started playing with Ubuntu about 6 months ago. It's a damn site easier to patch than windows.

As others have said, Microsoft Update is for MS software, and only selected applications at that. To install software in Ubuntu I just use a repositry and use the "Add Programs" menu. Every single program I've installed is now managed and updated by Ubuntu. My last update patched 40+ programs, in a single operation, without a reboot.

So, under Ubuntu:
  - Installing programs means ticking one box and pressing ok
  - Patching all programs means clicking ok when the update program asks to run
  - Uninstalling programs means unticking one box and pressing ok

And all of this without reboots.

I'm sorry, I'm a huge fan of windows, but Ubuntu amazed me the first time I used it. There is simply no comparison between this and windows in terms of ease of use, and that's only going to improve. Plus the damn thing's more secure anyway. I'm not running firewall or AV software on my linux box, it simply doesn't need it.

Myx

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (1)

Vanayr (686681) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699217)

I hate to say it, but this is 100% dead on. I would love to see more OS software in my enterprise, but does anyone have a clue as to what it costs to change out over 10,000 desktops? Not to mention training for all the support folks? Let's not even talk about interop with our customers. Nightmare, pure nightmare.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (1)

the100rabh (947158) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699219)

I dont know....but I just got my linux kernel updated on my Ubuntu...Was that a virus ------------- 100rabh runs away in horror????....no in joy

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? Not Linux (1)

-noefordeg- (697342) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699221)

"Eventually, as it always happens, there will be bug releases and new drivers for Windows Vista. Upgrading to them is as easily as doing "Windows Update." Linux (and BSD) distros will never be this easily patched due to the very nature of being open source."

-1 Ignorant
Seriously!

We've got a Windows server her, which is quite the hassle to keep up to date (windows + several programs)
There are also two servers here running VMWare with 4 virtual machines with Ubuntu 6.10 Server, which is a breeze to keep up to date.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? (5, Interesting)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698981)

Was Microsofts older versions of Windows phased out this fast too?


In the past, when a new version of Windows came out, there was no real need to phase out the old Windows - people wanted the newest version when they bought a new PC.

I guess this is a rather new situation for Microsoft (at least in the OS business.)

Now, it wouldn't seem that it should matter much to MS as long as someone pays the license, but I guess in the long run it could cost them money, not just from prolonged support, but people who already have a version of XP at home could start looking for an OS-less PC when they upgrade and just install what they have since drivers would undoubtedly be available for that hardware and not just Vista/nextGreatestOS.

Re:Will anyone gain anything from this? (2, Insightful)

jcr (53032) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699157)

Will anyone gain from this?

  Absolutely! Apple, Sun, and all the Linux vendors. By leaning on customers to break loose from Windows XP, Microsoft is creating an enormous opportunity for anyone with a better product, which is basically everyone besides Microsoft.

I've been saying it for quite a while now, but as an AAPL shareholder, I really hope MS keeps on doing exactly what they've been doing since the chair-tosser took over.

I myself prefer to stick with Gentoo and wish that all the developers at Gentoo would realize that Gentoo just isn't and is not supposed to become an "click and go" OS.

That attitude is precisely why Linux is having so much trouble gaining against Windows. For every weenie who likes to build the kernel five times a day, there are thousands of customers who just want the damn thing to work without having to mess with it.

-jcr

yep (-1, Flamebait)

Eun-HjZjiNeD (1001079) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698801)

FASCISTS

It's a shame (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18698807)

Despite the many hours of frustration it's caused me, it remains the best OS they've made so far.

Re:It's a shame (1)

jcr (53032) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699171)

That's about all one could ever say in favor of a Microsoft product. They will always asymptotically approach useability.

-jcr

Re:It's a shame (4, Insightful)

Grinin (1050028) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699191)

I would say the best OS MS has ever put together has been Windows 2000, especially with Service Pack 4. But out of the box, I feel that 2000 was the fastest (Not really. Windows 98 SE was the fastest, given new hardware) and most secure out of the box. I can't stand Windows Vista, and neither can common users. More and more of my clients are calling me saying "you were right..." and "I should have listened to you" but of course... curiosity killed the cat. Its unfortunate that Microsoft is allowed to get away with such things like this. They are basically forcing Vista down the throats of the entire market with no remorse. I think this latest effort is Microsoft trying to make sure that Linux will not harm their market share. I am personally losing faith in the Linux community in their attempts to take on Vista. Its a true tragedy.

Somebody help us

Re:It's a shame (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18699261)

Nah, DOS 5.0 is the best OS they've made so far.

Force Vista (2, Funny)

gustolove (1029402) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698813)

So since they can't sell vista they shall force it upon us. Time to burn stacks of Ubuntu Live CD's! GOGO!

XP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18698815)

XP is actually not that bad, especially compared to pre-WinME OSs. Win2K is pretty good too.

Re:XP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18698933)

They're going to have to fix a lot of problems in Vista before I'd install it on my gaming machine. A ton of 32bit games won't run on 64bit (which is idiotic) and a lot of XP games won't run on Vista. Should I throw away my $30,000 library of PC games just because they want me to use the new piece of shit?

Re:XP (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18698973)

$30k worth of games? You must weigh about 500 pounds. Put down the Chicken McNugget and invest your next $30 on a Dance Dance Revolution CD and a dance mat. Or I don't know, go really crazy and take a walk around the block. Who knows, your heart might not give out before you're 40.

Re:XP (1)

koreaman (835838) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698989)

You know, just because you buy a new computer doesn't mean you have to throw away your old one...

Re:XP (1)

mcbridematt (544099) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699155)

A ton of 32bit games won't run on 64bit (which is idiotic) and a lot of XP games won't run on Vista

Whats stopping you from using the 32bit version? For that matter, I guess you're playing old games too.

64-bit Windows has always been for the high end market where every single bit of hardware and software is certified by the software vendor.

Re:XP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18699223)

Command and Conquer 3 is not an old game. It's not alone, either.

Foot? (4, Funny)

Chmcginn (201645) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698819)

Check.

Gun?

Check.

I think you can figure out the rest.

Seriously... This is a good move on Microsoft's part only if they enjoy annoying their customers.

Wait, why did I bother putting that 'only if' in there?

Re:Foot? (4, Insightful)

nmb3000 (741169) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698901)

This is a good move on Microsoft's part only if they enjoy annoying their customers.

I think this is a great description of the situation. [ctrlaltdel-online.com] .

The thing is, I imagine that only the Windows "power users" really care and/or know the reasons behind wanting to stick with XP (at least until a service pack or two is released for Vista). Most average users just see Vista as the new Windows. Pretty much everything they do--Office, web browsing, email, Solitaire--still works and it's shiny and bouncy and see-through...wow! Most probably won't even notice a slowdown because they get Vista with new hardware and it offsets the new performance requirements.

Microsoft is probably just trying to give people they see as just not liking change a push to move to the new OS. I'm not too concerned because I've got a couple XP Pro licenses hanging around, a few OEMs and one from MSDNAA, so I'll "upgrade" when I'm good and ready.

Re:Foot? (1)

Zantetsuken (935350) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699025)

hey, you forgot to check for the chair, which trumps all of those

Prediction (4, Interesting)

edwardpickman (965122) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698827)

The last copies are going to be a hot commodity next year. I definately plan to set a couple aside before then. Hello Ebay!

Re:Prediction (4, Insightful)

zaydana (729943) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698909)

Don't forget that these are only the OEM copies which are going to be phased out by the end of the year. You can't just go out and buy 4 or 5 OEM copies of windows, and its (as far as I know) illegal to sell them on eBay, as you aren't selling them with hardware.

I think people that want to do the right thing would probably but a retail version anyhow, and everyone else will just pirate it. The biggest demand is going to come from people building their own computers, and by that time I think even that group will have moved onto Vista. They are mostly gamers, and gamers sort of are tied to Vista whether they like it or not...

Re:Prediction (1)

whoever57 (658626) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699015)

Don't forget that these are only the OEM copies which are going to be phased out by the end of the year. You can't just go out and buy 4 or 5 OEM copies of windows,
Can't you? [centralcomputers.com] The link is for a 3-pack, but the same store also sells single packs and 30-packs.

Re:Prediction (1)

DDLKermit007 (911046) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699049)

The OEM copies the poster is likely talking about you can buy on Ebay. I know I have. You install them only on a new machine (fresh install) so there will be no upgrading of Windows from a previous version. It's how small computer shops use OEM licenses.

Re:Prediction (5, Interesting)

nametaken (610866) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699079)

I talked to an MS rep a year or so ago who said the trick with that is you can sell OEM copies if you sell them with a critical hardware component. Since windows technically requires a mouse (per their hw req lists), people just bundle it with a $1 mouse and sell the OEM copy of Windows for much less than the retail copies. It was a just a loophole, and they may have worked it out since then, but it was legal at the time.

What I'm wondering is if the downgrade rights you get with Vista will still apply, and if you'll be able to buy media kits for XP after all this.

Re:Prediction (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18699145)

... and gamers sort of are tied to Vista whether they like it or not...
I'm still a tad confused on that matter.
From what I can tell, there is absolutely no need for "Vista only" direct-x, but it's claimed to have improvements of such significance that it can only function on Vista, and only with Vista compatible DX10 Cards... and yet, I saw nothing new.

Even so, several companies hop on and say they'll make Vista only games. Or new client versions only working in full for Vista (EVE).
Am I wrong here?
Is there any improvement in Vista that actually explains the vista/DX10 only features, other than simply not wanting to work it for XP to force more Vista upgrades? (I realize the graphics card -> DX version support, as that has been normal in GFX card cycles, but the OS requirement this time just struck me as blatant bullshit; not even attempted smoothed)

They are trying to push linux adoption. (3, Funny)

shaitand (626655) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698831)

Force once Microsoft is trying to do the right thing.

Ironic (1)

TJ_Phazerhacki (520002) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698835)

That most major retailers that I can still find XP at are cutting the price.... Makes it easier to pick up a 6-Pack ;)

Re:Ironic (2, Funny)

benplaut (993145) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699041)

make sure to snip all the enclosed plastic rings...

Downfall (4, Informative)

cyberbob2351 (1075435) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698839)

It's funny, that even the compusa and bestbuy salespersons are telling me that I should latch onto any secondhand xp copies I can get my hands on simply because Vista is causing them and their customers nothing but headaches.

Is it just me, or is Microsoft shooting themselves in the foot by pushing this new, and somewhat unpopular product into the marketplace?

Re:Downfall (1)

zippthorne (748122) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698903)

Well.. do they get their opinions from reading slashdot posts?

Re:Downfall (1)

shaitand (626655) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698945)

They are a monopoly, they figure nobody has a choice.

Re:Downfall (1)

RLiegh (247921) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699035)

We don't care. We don't have to. We're Microsoft.

I guess singular isn't the new AT&T...

Another bad move by MS (2, Insightful)

fractalVisionz (989785) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698841)

I am interested to find that XP is being phased out so fast. Personally, if I were Microsoft, I think it would make great sense to leave the machines as "Vista Certified" and put XP on them with no upgrade cd. This way, they can still double charge, all while converting their new user base to Vista.

Another thing is this just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If XP is selling, why loose customers, and thus profit, to something that is going to shy customers away.

Re:Another bad move by MS (4, Insightful)

Boandlgrama (300771) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698887)

They could keep selling XP.
But what are they to tell their share holders?
Sorry guys, we sunk 5 billion developing Vista. But nobody wants it.

Better luck next time.

Guess not...

Re:Another bad move by MS (1)

p!ssa (660270) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699055)

I'm having a deja vu moment.
Billions of dollars..
Nobody wants it...
Performs worse than previous versions..
Joke of the industry...
Wintel... hmmmm

  VISTANIUM!

Re:Another bad move by MS (2, Insightful)

novocastrian (653554) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698979)

They're doing it because they believe that no matter what they do customers won't desert them en masse. They wanted people to buy the Wow campaign and flock to Vista voluntarily, but if that doesn't happen then they'll use their dominance to force Vista on the market. More than anything else, this is evidence that they don't believe there's any real threat of people switching to linux or MacOSX. In their view they have a monopoly.

Re:Another bad move by MS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18698997)

"So fast"? I don't think so. They're still selling it for a full year after the upgrade was released, which is over 6 full years from when it was first released. I doubt any other version of Windows has ever been sold by OEMs more than 6 after release.

I would think that most people who absolutely have to have XP are enterprises that have site licenses allowing them to install 2000, XP, or Vista on any PC.

dom

Re:Another bad move by MS (1)

catxk (1086945) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699017)

I think it would make great sense to leave the machines as "Vista Certified" and put XP on them with no upgrade cd. This way, they can still double charge, all while converting their new user base to Vista. Sure, but I guess they're not as interested in selling for profit as they are in making everyone put an equals sign in between PC (guess they lost "computer" quite a few years ago) and Vista. Just as they recently said they rather have pirates "steal" Windows than something else. In short, it's about market share for Vista, not (direct) profit.

Re:Another bad move by MS (1)

linguae (763922) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699111)

Microsoft can get away with these things without any serious repercussions from the market because it is a monopoly. To paraphrase an old SNL skit, "We're Microsoft. We don't care. We don't have to." However, Vista is still not ready for the masses, or the masses aren't ready for Vista. I'll speak as a college student. For example, Minitab (which I have to use in my statistics class) is not yet compatible with Vista. Our campus residential network will not allow Vista on the networks in the dorms until the fall because their security clearance software (Clean Access) and anti-malware software is not compatible yet. I would buy a copy of Vista to use Boot Camp with, but I'm buying a copy of XP instead due to these concerns, mostly with backwards compatibility.

Now, a fast phase out of XP may force software companies and hardware companies writing drivers to quickly release Vista versions of software and drivers. However, if XP is phased out too quickly, then Vista users will be up a creek, and people will stick to their copies of XP (or even 2000) longer. You might even create a market situation similar to what happened to older HP calculators when they were discontinued and later replaced with newer calculators that are reputed to not have the same quality (e.g., the older, pre-Fiorina HP 32SII vs. the newer HP 33S. A used 32SII from eBay can be triple or even quadruple the price of a new 33S from WalMart).

On the other hand, look how Apple made the transition from OS 9 to OS X. It took them nearly three years to fully convert their user base. Apple slowly phased out OS 9. In fact, I believe that you can still buy a copy of OS 9 from Apple for $20 (although I'm not sure if Apple recently discontinued it because they're now an Intel shop). We'll see how Vista fares in the long run.

Congratulation to the MS-XP sales departement ! (1)

aepervius (535155) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698847)

They will write a nice bonus down by the end of the year. I will certainly make sure to buy one version and download all patch / package/service pack offline to be able to reconstruct an XP machine alone.

It's a trick (5, Funny)

krakass (935403) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698857)

They're going to take XP off the market, then a couple months later after they get tired of everyone bitching about Vista, they'll reintroduce it as Windows Classic. Either that or as XP SE.

Re:It's a trick (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18698991)

No, no, it's not a trick... It's a trap! [ytmnd.com]

Re:It's a trick (1)

SeaFox (739806) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699197)

And then they'll get rid of Vista [wikipedia.org] and eventually release a service pack for XP that adds the Vista DRM.

Microsoft will continue to say that what they are selling is the same Windows XP from before despite the ingredients not being quite the same. New users wont be able to tell the difference, but old times will complain about the bad taste XP's new "features" leave in their mouths now and how the original XP interface ran much smoother down their gullets.

Sad news ... Kurt Vonnegut, dead at 84 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18698877)

I just heard some sad news on talk radio - Humor/Sci Fi writer Kurt Vonnegut was found dead in his Manhattan home today. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon.

Re:Sad news ... Kurt Vonnegut, dead at 84 (0, Offtopic)

grolschie (610666) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698931)

Just incase mods were wondering, no, it's not [nytimes.com] a Slashdot troll / meme. Off-topic perhaps though.

2.4 OS Images (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18698889)

From the article:

If you're a consumer, you're unlikely to be managing more than say 2.4 OS images at home

What is the 0.4? Windows 98?

Re:2.4 OS Images (1)

flanktwo (1041494) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698911)

If you're a consumer, you're unlikely to be managing more than say 2.4 OS images at home

What is the 0.4? Windows 98?


Ten copies of WinME.

Just need one (1)

mattr (78516) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698907)

I have a fresh box of XP/Office I bought through a friend at Microsoft for cheap. Still haven't had an opportunity to use it yet, though!

I will install this in parallels on the new Mac I'll buy. Probably also install it on its windows partition just in case I need Windows drivers for some app.

I know the U.S. government loves Microsoft and all, but it seems to me there must be something wrong with a company that is both a convicted monopolist and a key part of the corporate infrastructure being able to force a switch to a new OS like this so quickly, especially when the new one involves massive changes and massive headaches. I know they must like the idea of being able to get everyone to buy Vista but this is ridiculous and only insane people think it is normal conduct. Every new MS product release since Windows 2000 has included one sort of a scam or another that overshadowed any technical merits of the upgrade.

Re:Just need one (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18698937)

Of course the government won't do anything, they need vista on all computers to spy on its citizens. M$ put backdoors in Vista for our government, RIAA, and MPAA. That is why it is being forced upon use. Good thing I use Linux.

Re:Just need one (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18699123)

Im sure it goes deeper then that, some of the new features is indexing, WGA, etc. no doubt vista is WinME II, at leasted its a rushed beta POS. but hey, pay not attention to this... it has a shinny interface.

sad part is that they can do forced migration with dx10, media player 13???, or your fav applications that should work with xp but will say vista only. just like they did with win95. atleast for the moment games titles suck now, and hopefully in 2008 it will continue to do so.

Only MS could make Slashdot readers regret this. (1)

Glytch (4881) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698915)

Congratulations, Microsoft. You've accomplished the impossible.

This is why my company is starting a move to Linux (5, Interesting)

wattsup (807308) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698917)

My company builds custom video display systems for TV news, weather, and digital signage. I've always been running a Microsoft shop because we could deploy new designs the fastest. We don't need eye candy, just a stable and compatible OS that we can build on.

Our favorite used to be Windows 2000 Pro, because it didn't spend a lot of time getting in our way of booting up and running automated applications.

Then, Microsoft pulled Windows 2000 last year. So we moved to XP Pro..after some pain in getting rid of most of the "were Microsoft, and we are going to think for you" eye candy and automated autoconfig BS, we again had a stable OS to build on, or so we thought.

But having been burned, we started one of our new digital signage projects last year based on Slackware Linux...and we are quite happy with it. Yes it took longer, but we don't have to worry about MS pulling the rug out from under us. We don't have to worry about losing our development investment with Linux.

Apple's Steve jobs pulled a similar stupid stunt when he pulled the plug on the Power PC and all the development around it. We had built products around that too, but after having our products rendered useless by Apple's decision, (not once but twice, remember Nubus?) we'll never ever develop for Apple ever again.

What MS doesn't get about companies like mine is that there is no way we'd ever build a dedicated box or appliance application on Vista. The premise is a joke. If MS had any sense left, they'd keep XP around so that the OEM market had something to work with that wasn't just a collection of glorified myopic and incompatible eye candy.

i like XP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18698955)

I tried Vista and didn't like it very much, and I've got a really hi-end PC (3+ GHz Conroe, X1950XT ATI, 2+GB RAM) so it wasn't the performance issue.

I'm just so used to XP and somehow the transparent windows just isn't a strong enuff hook to get me to switch.

I hope they reconsider, I enjoy my current dual-boot XP/Ubuntu setup and would prefer not to have Vista forced on me for at least a few more years.

WPA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18698929)

I wonder when they will stop "activating" windows for us and make everyone upgrade ...

hehe 'sup kids (-1, Redundant)

colton cummings (887877) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698939)

Won't be able to find XP by the end of this year? Will be stuck with vista by the end of this year?

That's okay; I've been going around explaining to my friends why they'd much prefer alternate operating systems to these two, i.e. Ubuntu (pls not flaimbait, I don't know enough about anything to be whoring any one distro).

  They listen to me. Good move, MS, discontinue XP as you bring out 'teh Vista! Nah, see, even the illiterates I've talked to say they don't like Vista. MS jumped the gun.

Anyways, to make things clear (too drunk to know what's what. i know this ain't clear but draw from itw what you will), I'm 18 and I'm in high school. I know little 'nough about UNIX and others though I'm a fast learner. Fast enough to have convinced a friends that there's more out there than Microsoft has to offer. They trust me and will allow me to install alternatives and get them going. Hey, that's a trend! I've watched it spread first and even secondhand. Many people I know my age and younger are becoming well versed in this stuff and are bringing others. :]

Re:hehe 'sup kids (2, Funny)

Merusdraconis (730732) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699087)

Man, I used to beat someone like you up in high school.

I feel old. (Still have no patience for evangelists, I must be new here, etc. etc.)

Re:hehe 'sup kids (1)

colton cummings (887877) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699143)

I know; it's okay. Times, they are a changin', eh?

What amuses me (1)

Demena (966987) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698947)

is that sooner or later someone is going to remember what copyright is for.... When that happens any product they are declining to sell will NOT be under copyright.

Re:What amuses me (1)

dotfile (536191) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698987)

You obviously have NO clue about copyright law, period. Go ahead; start selling copies of, say, Windows 98. See how long you survive before being crushed by the Python-esque foot of Microsoft's legal department.

Microsoft's plan (1)

Nybble's Byte (321886) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698949)

1. Old version works
2. New one still doesn't
3. Force everybody to buy the new one
4. Tech support inundated with calls to work around what should have been fixed years ago
5. Charge people for support. "Did you want to upgrade to SP8 for just $49.95?"
6. a) Profit!
      b) Throw chairs when people dump Microsoft
7. Developers! Developers! Developers!
8. Repeat #1 thru 7 as often as you wish

Hardware / Software Lifecycles (2, Insightful)

prandal (87280) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698959)

This makes little sense considering when product support for XP ends:

Mainstream product support for XP ends on April 14th, 2009, with extended support (security patches only) until April 8th, 2014.

That's actually better than Windows 2000's support: 13 years of security updates as against 10 years for Win 2000 (whose extended support ends on July 13th, 2010).

http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/ [microsoft.com]

Did Dell see this coming? (3, Interesting)

Somnus (46089) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698961)

Dell, having had a long relationship with Microsoft, knew that Microsoft would try to shove Vista down their throats -- ready or not. Combined with Apple's recent success, I wonder if this prompted their foray into consumer Linux.

The end is nigh for microsoft as #1 OS vendor (1)

Psx29 (538840) | more than 7 years ago | (#18698983)

I think the next few years are going to bring about huge changes in the OS market, it's already apparent that the importance of windows is on the decline (with the two notable exceptions being gaming and the corporate exchange environment). The only question left is what exactly will these changes bring?

other countries (1)

YoYofella (184938) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699051)

How about foreign countries, especially developing world, if their computer is not powerful enough to run VISTA... btw, please click on this stanford link [stanford.edu] for a test on google analytics assignment.

sure (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18699057)

They just can't sell that resource eating piece of stupid dragon and pretend to make us swallow it at the force. So then we have to buy just bigger computer. HEY MICROSOFT IF YOU WANT TO SELL SOFTWARE THEN MAKE IT THE RIGHT WAY. You made it too much piece of crap this time. Of course you are not selling a piece of shit and then tell those bunches of lies that is the best selling OS ever. My finger to you for your lies.

Time for a change... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18699069)

Mac with OS X anyone?

Damn (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18699107)

Well this is something I was regretting.
I have been a long time user of Windows (since the 3.1 days) and have tried every OS they released (except for ME) since then.
I must say I liked Win 98SE a lot. And then I discovered Win2k. But to me Xp was the amalgamation of both.
It runs smoothly and doing what I do on the PC (web browsing, Winamp listening, Battlefield 2 (and other games) and VLC movie watching) it works perfectly. Nearly 100% of the time without an issue.
I have tried Ubuntu (and I did actually like it a lot) and also FreeBSD back in the day (was impossible for a high school teenager with other things on my mind to try to comprehend it).
I am currently a help desk technician. I help people (regular Joes) with their problems. Problems with printing or email archiving etc.
I must say XP is very easy to navigate and do things from simple commands to powerful policy lock downs.

Now I did experiment with Vista (No I didn't buy it and I wasn't one of the beta testers) and the first thing I encountered was my dislike for it.
Microsoft has changed the way that their OS looks (well minor/major improvements are good but....) to the point of making the functionality of it severely hindered.
So I installed Vista Ultimate on my machine. The very first thing I noticed was that navigating my folders was quite a lot more difficult than in XP (or any other MS OS. Why I ask?? I mean its not like navigating folders is something that people don't regularly want to do!!). Now with the default interface I found it almost impossible (it literally took me an hours worth of forum reading etc.) to work out how to turn on hidden files and how to get the familiar File, Edit, View menu up the top of explorer (WTF? Removing that as a Window's default isn't an improvement!!).

Eventually the company I work for (a government health provider) will go over to Vista. This will make help desk support and general troubleshooting a problem. Instead of being able to say (over the phone) "Click Start and then My Computer. Click on File and then Open and then browse to D drive and select the template folder there" I will now have to say something like "Now click the colourful icon in the bottom left corner. Go to Computer then click the icon of a little man running. Now click the brown box that looks like a little house. Now type in "D" and then hit enter. Now select the little flashing house icon again and then type in "Templates". Now eventually you should see a listing of flashing grey and black text on a transparent background. Click the third option which should read "Show in Explorer""!!
Why did they change the appearance of a perfectly viable and working, efficient interface (XP I am refering to here) and replace it with colourful meaningless icons and pictures.

My opinion if Vista is that I will never use it again. I will not be buying it. If I am forced to use it (which is what the article seems to allude to. That MS will eventually (and quickly I might add) drop their support for XP and push everyone to Vista) I will give up using MS products and move to Linux to get the things done I want to get done (I have used Firefox for a long time and i know of the XMMS(??) player for music. I like what WINE and Cedega are doing with games).

XP is the last MS operating system I think I will use. By dropping support for it so quickly (granted this is just Dell not supporting it anymore but I do hope that Microsoft keeps up their support for many years to come as they did with 98 and 2000) they are forcing me, a loyal paying customer of all of their OS range (not inclusing ME. God... WhY?!@) and a supporter of their environment through my work for many years as a help desk technician, to be forced to use an alternative OS. I'm not a big fan of Macs just as I am not a big fan of Linux yet. For one reason, theres not really many native, fun gaming environments (like the BF franchise or SWAT/Rainbow Six tactical shooters) available. Also the things I do like and am grateful for within a Windows OS (mIRC and Winamp) don't exist anywhere else.

Good luck XP, I hope you stay in my life for many years, and you will as long as you don't get totally phased out. I see myself use XP for a further 5 or more years. Just as I used 98SE well into the new millenium.
But if you don't hang around XP then good luck to Open Source.

Competitors (1)

os2fan (254461) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699113)

Microsoft said in their trials, that Windows, Office etc, had as their biggest competitors, previous versions of these systems.

Is not then microsoft interfering with competition by withdrawing / overpricing previous versions? One should recall in the past that DOS 3 successfully competed with DOS 4.

"Roll back" partly needed (1)

bjoeg (629707) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699121)

As stated some issues still remains with Vista, and XP is somewhat mature product that still works.

Actually I was browsing Dell the other night since a father of a friend needed a new computer. You know the cheap workstation for around $800, so I choosed Dell since you could get On-site service, so geeks wont have to come around if he breaks the "any-key".

To my surprise Dell offered only Vista on their PCs, but they still kept the systems at 512MB of RAM despite stating themselves Vista required 1GB to be bearable and 2GB to be happy.

Get a full blown PC with Vista for $800, but you need the $200 add-on package to boot Vista.

thanks for the cash (1)

ushering05401 (1086795) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699149)

how long have people been pushed around by microsoft?

not long enough apparently, as i still make easy money picking up contracts to write updated code to run on these platforms.

do i feel like a crook for making money off this?

simply put... no.

is it wrong that a company push unsecured 'upgrades' like vista? of course.

but consider this before you flame me... everyone from the neighborhood security sites to the u.s. government has expressed concern about microsoft security over the past several years... and the general public cannot be bothered enough to care.

should i then be bothered about cashing in on the general public?

i don't think so.

welcome, vista... thanks for helping me feed my children at the expense of the unconcerned.

Re:thanks for the cash (1)

stewbacca (1033764) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699169)

Agreed! Microsoft will forever be exhonerated by the masses of people who don't take a few moments to explore other options.

who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18699161)

fucking cracks yo

"Forward thinking" from MS (1)

Legion303 (97901) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699179)

1. Microsoft pushes Dell into selling new systems with no OS in order to meet customer preference.
2. Customers find old Dell OEM XP ISOs on Usenet.
3. ???
4. Profit! (But not for Microsoft.)

Cutting of Your Nose to ... (1)

BoRegardless (721219) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699183)

Give OS X & Linux a REAL boost. Can you say semi-suicidal sales strategy fast?

To say I am astonished is putting it mildly.

I now think I was wrong to have stated previously that Bill Gates & Steve Ballmer are too removed from the average PC user and the things he has had to put up with in the past when users were forced to upgrade and then put up with all the headaches.

Bill & Steve obviously only talk to each other, with no input from the real world average PC user and the firms that employ them.

The consequence of FORCING upgrades is going to be a big negative on Microsoft in so many ways.

One high end program I use simply can not be "VISTA Ready" by year end. I have been through this and it takes 4-5 updates once the product gets its first release and that takes 6-8 months minimum. Some companies because of training, productivity and security issues, simply will NOT allow a premature adoption of new software for fear of damaging their production systems & quality systems.

Good fortune for Apple? (1)

stewbacca (1033764) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699187)

Apple is counting the days until Microsoft stops shipping OEM XP. For that will be a time when millions of fence-sitters will finally take the OS X plunge. Just a prediction...4th quarter Mac sales will be insane.

Time to Stock Up! (1)

dufachi (973647) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699195)

Time to stock up on copies of XP Pro for future use, as I really have little to no desire to put Vista on my machine. Maybe I'll finally switch to OSX when they kill the XP support lifecycle.

Nothing to See Here...Use Downgrade Rights (1)

VTBlue (600055) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699215)

People should not read too much into this. To quote Gartner,

"On 17 January 2007, Microsoft published a bulletin outlining downgrade rights for Windows Vista
original equipment manufacturer (OEM) editions (see the Downgrade Rights Chart at
http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/resources/volbr ief.mspx [microsoft.com] ). Users buying PCs preloaded with
OEM versions of Windows Vista Business or Windows Vista Ultimate may downgrade their PCs
to Windows XP Professional only."

Check out the full Gartner report here: http://www.gartner.com/resources/145900/145950/vis ta_oem_downgrade_rights_w_145950.pdf [gartner.com]

This should suffice for 90% of the downgrade requests. Any more esoteric reasons can probably be handled on a case by case basis with Microsoft's Customer Support. The only big change with downgrade rights is that Vista will not allow you to downgrade to anything below XP, i.e Windows 2000.

Finally point 2 revealed (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 7 years ago | (#18699255)

1. Buying a ton of XP licenses before year's end.
2. Offering them on EBay by 1.1.2008
3. Profit!
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