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AACS Cracked Again

kdawson posted more than 7 years ago | from the persistence dept.

Encryption 306

EmTeedee sends us to a blog post for a summary of the latest results in cracking AACS, from the Doom9 forums (as the earlier cracks have been) — after the DVD Security Group said it had patched the previous flaws. From the DLTV blog: "This time the target was the Xbox 360 HD DVD add on. Geremia on Doom9 forums has started a thread on how he has obtained the Volume ID without AACS authentication. With the aid of others like Arnezami they have managed to patch the Xbox 360 HD DVD add on... It appears that XT5 has released [an] application that allows the Volume ID to be read without the need to rewrite the firmware. This would mean that anyone could simply plug in the HD DVD drive and obtain the Volume ID from any HD DVD without the hassle of flashing it."

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One word. (5, Funny)

Spazntwich (208070) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704483)

Owned.

Re:One word. (5, Insightful)

Ravenscall (12240) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704513)

When will these stuffed suits learn that the more they try to limit people, the more people will fight those limitations?

Re:One word. (4, Funny)

Spazntwich (208070) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704573)

Hopefully not anytime soon, as I love stories of this type.

Seriously, what was the turnaround time from a claimed patch to another breach? Was it even 3 days ago those clownshoes were crowing about it?

Re:One word. (4, Funny)

ryanvm (247662) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704901)

Oh come on, you know you wanted to make your point with a Star Wars quote.

Re:One word. (-1, Redundant)

Bemopolis (698691) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705011)

The more they tighten their grip, the more systems slip through their fingers?

Re:One word. (1)

Ravenscall (12240) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705289)

That works as well.

Re:One word. (1, Funny)

RPoet (20693) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705333)

We shall become more powerful than they can possibly imagine.

Re:One word. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18704523)

No, this would definately be beyond "Owned."

This is a PWNED!!1!

Re:One word. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18704803)

You mispelled "Pwned".

Re:One word. (0)

Miseph (979059) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705473)

Parent is, by virtue of being the first post in the article, not redundant. If you don't know what that word means, don't moderate it.

In any case, owned indeed. And bravo for thinking to use an Xbox 360 in the hack, that's definitely worth some bonus points.

That does it! (5, Funny)

jhfry (829244) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704527)

No more movies! Ever! We quit!

The movie industry.

Re:That does it! (2, Informative)

Thyrteen (1084963) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704663)

Well, as they said yesterday, who wanted to wait a whole 24 hours for this one to happen? :)
Score:
HD-DVD DRM: 0
Crackers: 2

Re:That does it! (5, Funny)

CogDissident (951207) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704991)

Anyone else find it funny that this came out just as they were putting people together to push out the new updates?

I have this mental image of a guy in overalls hauling boxes and boxes of patched DVDs out to the truck, looking up at the news-monitor in the shipping yard, and just a single tear falling.

Re:That does it! (4, Insightful)

SillyNickName4me (760022) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705045)

I have this mental image of a guy in overalls hauling boxes and boxes of patched DVDs out to the truck, looking up at the news-monitor in the shipping yard, and just a single tear falling.

Hmm.. I'd think he'd smile tho. nice job security for a while.

Fine by me. (5, Interesting)

Kadin2048 (468275) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704819)

No more movies! Ever! We quit!

The movie industry.


That really wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. There's a huge demand for movies, but they're expensive to make and the current movie industry sucks up most of the available investment dollars. There's no "secret sauce" involved in making a movie; it's just very, very expensive, and the people with enough cash to bankroll a film would rather go with an established, sure bet, rather than taking a chance on someone or something new.

If the current players just decided to pack up and go home, the new industry that would rise up in its place would doubtless be a lot more creative -- at least in the short term -- and we'd probably see a lot of new material out of it. In time, it would probably stagnate, too, because that's the way of things.

The main problem with the current situation is that the dinosaur companies have bought protection for their business models from the government, and essentially have propped themselves up. There's nothing bad with companies getting big, but there's also nothing that says they have a "right" to stay in business, either. Failing business models deserve to die, and the companies that rely on them deserve to die, too; when they don't, you're stopping what ought to be a natural economic progression.

Re:Fine by me. (2, Insightful)

jhfry (829244) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704893)

That's kinda my point... there is still ton's of money to be made without need for this DRM BS. They will never just pack it in and stop making movies.

However they do love to make it sound like DRM is essential for there to be any money in producing movies.

Re:Fine by me. (3, Insightful)

Hijacked Public (999535) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705183)

After reading the first sentence I thought someone was making a good point, but the signature line negates it.

Keep cracking DRM schemes and all you'll get are more laws aimed at stopping you, more vigorous enforcement, and more DRM integrated into your hardware.

Stop buying DRM'd content in the first place and maybe you'll get somewhere.

Re:Fine by me. (5, Insightful)

Kadin2048 (468275) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705479)

After reading the first sentence I thought someone was making a good point, but the signature line negates it.

My signature or the GP's?

Anyway, I think it's important to work on both fronts. First, I agree that the best bet is just to not purchase anything that's DRMed at all. But since that means basically bowing out of a large portion of our culture -- I mean, no late-model VCRs (macrovision) or tapes, no DVD players or discs, no TiVO -- I think you're going to have trouble getting enough people to follow you to make it significant. There's no point in throwing yourself in front of a tank if they're just going to run over you and nobody else is going to notice or care.

Continually breaking the DRM schemes costs the studios a lot of money. It ensures that DRM is never "fire and forget;" and it turns DRM from being a one-time cost into a continual cost center, a black hole that they need to keep pouring money into. If you can make the cost of maintaining an effective DRM system higher than the cost of the piracy that it allegedly prevents, then it will eventually go away -- either the companies will see the light, or they'll be run out of business by other companies who do, and who are more profitable as a result.

The major remaining problem is that the entertainment industry in particular has so much political influence that it's going to require a lot of vigilance and advocacy to keep them from trying to use the law to buoy themselves as they start to sink -- or barring that, pull everyone else down with them. We haven't had much luck in this in the past, hence we've seen the AHRA, the DMCA, and lately the Mickey Mouse Protection Act go through. But if we can keep the visibility of their actions high -- which is aided by putting pressure on them and forcing them to be more and more outlandish and openly anti-consumer -- while at the same time denying them revenue by boycotting DRMed products and sucking their revenue through a guerrilla campaign against the DRM systems themselves, they'll eventually be forced to quit.

Re:Fine by me. (3, Insightful)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705233)

There's no "secret sauce" involved in making a movie; it's just very, very expensive,

no it's not. having overpaid prima donna union actors, union workers and extravagent locations, props and lunches IS expensive. making a killer good movie IS NOT expensive.

go watch El Marachi. It's better than most everything made at Hollywierd and was less than the cost of a cheap car.

a crapload of great movies are made for dirt.

Re:Fine by me. (5, Informative)

kebes (861706) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705335)

Good post.

This assertion:

There's no "secret sauce" involved in making a movie; it's just very, very expensive.
caught my eye. Actually I would say it's an untested hypothesis that movies are expensive. Currently movie production is basically a monopoly (actually a cartel). By definition monopolies have no competition, hence there is no incentive to try and make things cheaper. This gives rise to the massive salaries and creative accounting that Hollywood engages in. (Somehow, on paper, they actually have razor-thin profits even when the movie made 10-times as much money as the supposed budget.)

If Hollywood were replaced with something new, that was actually a competitive marketplace to make decent movies at the lowest price, I bet they would cost only a fraction of what they cost now. I imagine a movie that nowadays costs $30 million could actually be made for $600,000 once salaries became more reasonable, advertising were less extensive, and studios were forced to optimize their workflow to keep the budget down. The quality/budget ratio of independent films lends credence to this theory.

Current movie prices are massively inflated because they are a monopoly. If that monopoly were removed, I bet the new price of movies would be low enough that people wouldn't bother with unauthorized duplication... because the genuine article would be cheap enough already.

Re:Fine by me. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18705765)

. I imagine a movie that nowadays costs $30 million could actually be made for $600,000 once salaries became more reasonable,

I live in LA and often see people filming. Last year, they were shooting an SNL spinoff movie in my neighborhood. About 50 people showed up in the morning and started construction -- lights, props, equipment. They filmed the scene that afternoon. It was about 30 seconds long. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up on the cutting room floor. They tore everything down that evening. I was shocked at the amount of effort necessary to shoot on location.

I don't think cutting salaries is the answer. I doubt those people were being paid much. In fact, there were about 200 extras who worked all day for free. Making movies is just time intensive and expensive. Shooting in a studio is cheaper, but you lose the quality and freedom afforded by on location shots (do you want your move to look and feel like a sitcom?).

I think the real area for cost cutting is new media. Film is horrendously expensive, not only to shoot on, but also to distribute to theaters (think hundreds of thousands of dollars). Digitial distro could make movies cheapers and enable smaller companioes to work without distributors.

Re:Fine by me. (5, Insightful)

smellsofbikes (890263) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705857)

>The quality/budget ratio of independent films lends credence to this theory.

I'm not trying to be snide here, but I suspect you haven't seen very many independent films. Most of them *suck* *incredibly*, but the very best 0.1% are quite good indeed, competitive with the best stuff coming out of Hollywood. I think it's something like a Boltzmann distribution [wikipedia.org] -- Hollywood has a very steep curve, so there's not a lot of difference between their very best movies and their worst. Bollywood's best are about as good, but their worst are much worse. Chinese films, at their best, are superb, but the worst ones I've seen have been nearly unwatcheable. Then you go to an independent film competition -- I'm not talking Sundance, I'm talking some local art scene competition -- and you begin thinking to yourself "I'd pay $30 to not have to watch the rest of this."

Money doesn't guarantee a movie will be good, but it does heavily indicate the movie won't be appallingly bad.

Re:Fine by me. (4, Insightful)

HTTP Error 403 403.9 (628865) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705347)

I think TV killed the movie industry. A traditional movie is a dinosaur compared to TV. The level of character and plot development in a single season of a one hour drama is so much greater than a single two hour movie can provide. If the Sopranos were a movie franchise, we'd be on maybe the third or fourth movie - roughly equivalent to 6 or 8 TV episodes. It seems like movies compensate for the lack of character and plot development by using gimmicks or bigger explosions.

Re:Fine by me. (1)

Skreems (598317) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705539)

You're not watching the right movies if you think there are none with character and plot development. Some stories are better told as a single 1.5-2 hour presentation than split over episodes.

Maybe that's because they've been better lately? (1)

Kadin2048 (468275) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705895)

I think you definitely have a point, but I think it may be like debating the relative merits of the poem versus a 1,000 page novel. They both have their place.

One of the reasons I think serialized TV shows have become popular lately is because they're not controlled by the big movie studios, at least not as directly. (Yeah, they're mostly bankrolled by the networks, and they're mostly owned by the same handful of media companies, but they're further from the centers of power.) There have been opportunities for and evidence of creativity in mainstream TV that just hasn't been seen in mainstream cinema in a while, and I don't think it's really because of the format itself. That probably helps, but really I don't think there's any fundamental superiority between a short film (think 5-10 mins), a traditional picture (90-120 mins), and a serialized show (as many hours as you want, usually in 20 or 45 minute semi-contained chunks, with seasonal plot arcs of ~10 hrs).

There's a lot of pretty dreadful TV out there, too (daytime soaps?), underlining the point that length may give you a bigger canvas, but it doesn't really make the painting any better. And not to mention the very good movies made over the past century, many of which probably wouldn't be good as serials.

Re:Fine by me. (2, Funny)

Zonekeeper (458060) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705701)

There's no "secret sauce" involved in making a movie;


Well...unless you're making pr0n...

Re:That does it! (0, Troll)

Transported Mutton (1087115) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704981)

Yep, if it is digital it will be copied. Of course the movie and music industries aren't bright enough to figure this out. How else do you explain their suport for Hillery (and company)?

Re:That does it! I've seen THAT movie before... (3, Funny)

mnemotronic (586021) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705075)

That is the second or third remake of "We quit!", and they're not getting any better.

<insert usual rant about inbred entertainment industry management noodlebrains>

Defective By Design (2, Interesting)

gcnaddict (841664) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705117)

Here's an outlandish idea:

Microsoft and Toshiba screwed this up on purpose to undermine the AACS. Defective by Design, sure, but this is probably one of the few times that it ROCKS.

Re:That does it! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18705531)

That would totally rock. If Big Media could be convinced to limit themselves to their own venues, there might even be enough demand for downloadable indie releases to establish a working micropatronage-based economic system for digital media. Heck, the popular artists might even be able to solicit a bit of "product placement" cash to make it more profitable.
    Would a simple HD recording of a local acting troupe, performing a local playwright's play, be worth donating a quarter to, by you?

Bang... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18704581)

...that head (->MPAA) that doesn't bang.

Or are their heads in the sand? Or both?

Nothing is Foolproof (1)

Umuri (897961) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704599)

God just needs to invent a better fool. Or in this case, someone who cares about being able to watch stuff they buy, on other stuff they buy. No questions asked and no crud breaking because it thinks it's "illegal" due to some dust or something.

When will they learn? I'm remembering a phrase about old dogs and new tricks. The **AAs are very old dogs.

Re:Nothing is Foolproof (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18704733)

Actually, didn't the Mythbusters proved that you can indeed teach an old dog new tricks?

Re:Nothing is Foolproof (2, Insightful)

ltjr (1066984) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705089)

Actually.. that was disproved on Mythbusters.. you _can_ teach an old dog new tricks.

Maybe there's still hope for the MPAA... *cough*

Re:Nothing is Foolproof (1)

oyenstikker (536040) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705239)

It is like spam. Nobody needs to buy the things advertised in spam. Some idiots just need to think somebody will buy the things advertised in spam. The suits at the ??AA just need to think that copy protection will work.

8th post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18704631)

8th post, d00d!

I LOVE this! (4, Insightful)

jhfry (829244) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704637)

It seems that the /. crowd, and the tech industry in general, knew well before AACS was ever released that it would be a flop. We knew it would do nothing to prevent disks from being copied, we knew it would do nothing but hurt the consumer, and we knew it was an utter waste of money.

Yet the movie industry pushed forward, and look where it got them... exactly where we said it would, nowhere.

I can't wait until they realize that it's not worth it, and just stop concerning themselves with copy-protecting their media and instead focus on creating good movies.

Freudian Slip (3, Interesting)

zuki (845560) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704759)

I was reading parent post and did a double-take, as what I got of it was:

"I can't wait until they realize that it's not worth it, and just stop concerning themselves with creating good movies, and instead focus full-time on copy-protecting their media."
...which in a way seemed to make total sense, there is a perverse part of myself that thinks that this is almost where we are headed.

Z.

Re:I LOVE this! (4, Insightful)

suv4x4 (956391) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704795)

I can't wait until they realize that it's not worth it, and just stop concerning themselves with copy-protecting their media and instead focus on creating good movies.

Let's keep things straight:

writers/directors/actors focus on creating good movies;
movie distribution/marketing companies focus on wasting money on copy protecting their media.
hackers concentrate ruining the cop protection efforts;
the general consumer looks at the easier way to get their movie, be it rental/torrent/buy DVD/p2p: whatever seems better value.

Re:I LOVE this! (1)

jhfry (829244) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704999)

writers/directors/actors focus on creating good movies;
movie distribution/marketing companies focus on wasting money on copy protecting their media.
Yes, but if you took the resources wasted by the distribution/marketing companies to DRM their content, the writers/directors/actors would have more resources to create better (arguably) movies. Or at least profits could be better which would help offset the losses from illegal distribution.

Re:I LOVE this! (4, Interesting)

Pope (17780) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704799)

DRM or not, the current 1 freaking minute booting time for HD DVD players (dunno about BluRay) is enough to put me off the damn things.

Re:I LOVE this! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18704953)

Spoiled rotten. I can remember taking a week to download Slak on my 2.8K modem. A whole minute ... whoa one could forget everything by then.

Re:I LOVE this! (2, Funny)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705115)

one minute booting time?

are you serious? I don't own one (never will - I don't condone the BD or HD-DVD 'protection' concepts and they'll never get dollar one from me).

why on earth does it take that long? for every startup?

are you talking about software based players (on a pc) or hardware set-top boxes?

(what are they doing? calculating PI to zillions of digits or something??) ;)

Re:I LOVE this! (-1, Troll)

fimbulvetr (598306) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705461)

why on earth does it take that long?

One word: java

Re:I LOVE this! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18705615)

Hmmmm, if I'm not mistaken, Java is a programming language... It doesn't *do anything* until it runs on most likely a virtual machine (which might be poorly implemented), or directly on hardware (which is unlikely). But I wouldn't go as far as saying that it's Java's fault... You just gotta use the right tool for the right occasion, and in this case, I'd agree that running a Java application on a virtual machine to control the hardware, if that's what they are doing, it's probably not the appropriate tool for the task. I've only seen an Early HD-DVD player boot, and it looked more like it was loading an operating system, such as linux or something similiar, but I never looked in to it further. Still waiting to buy until some company comes out with something that plays both formats...

Re:I LOVE this! (1)

toleraen (831634) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705793)

Ohhh, I suppose it would take about a minute to get the water hot enough. Smart thinking in designing those new HD DVD coffee cup holders with the coffee maker built right into 'em.

Re:I LOVE this! (2, Insightful)

SydShamino (547793) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705845)

The fact that they consider my TV that I spent $3 grand on unworthy of their video, because it doesn't have the correct plug thingy in the back, is enough to put me off the damn thing.

Oh, and I watch 100+ movies a year (over 30 so far this year in the theater, another dozen on DVD). Most of those were independent films at festivals, but still, I'm the perfect market for HD movies at home: watch lots and lots of movies, invested early in hidef, etc. Instead they don't want to sell me product I can use.

Re:I LOVE this! (1)

CannonballHead (842625) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705051)

So, there should be no copyrights, then? Everything should be in the public domain?

Anyone can take a movie and claim its his?

Hm. Even open-source software has some amount "this code was written by..." and generally you don't steal it and say you wrote it. Recently, the Beryl vs. Compiz thing sorta had a fight in that regard.

Whatever we might think about various copyrighting methods, though, the fact remains that people will generally like to receive credit for their work, and possibly even money. So, you can blast the system all you want, but can you propose something better?

Re:I LOVE this! (1)

MightyYar (622222) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705301)

I think that you misunderstand the criticism. Most of us agree that some concept of copyright is probably a good way to provide an incentive to potential content creators. DRM is what is being attacked here... The fundamental problem with DRM is that eventually the content has to be converted into photons and sound waves. It is a physical impossibility to protect photons and sound waves from being copied. In addition, most (all?) DRM schemes to-date have been compromised by getting access to the still-digital signal, which eliminates the single generation-loss that an analog copy would have.

A better solution? Sure... just sell your movies/music and go after the for-profit pirates. The same strategy that has worked for, what, 30 years? Longer in the print industry, who have been susceptible to "perfect" copies for a lot longer than the movie industry. Last I checked, CNN.COM still puts out news even though I can cut-and-paste it, verbatim, on to my own web site.

NO DRM = more ads ? (2, Interesting)

Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705237)

When they decide that they can't prevent theft, they might just decide that they can instead use the increased distribution to their benefit via increased ads inside each movie.

Might even make sence for them to produce two versions of the movies:
  1. Free Electronically distributed , with ads maybe non skipable commercials between chapters
  2. Not free, no ads + DRM


of course pirates would still try and rip the add free discs, and or remove the ads from the free version, but it might remove the incentive for many people to pirate the non free disks. I mean, most still watch tv with ads, instead of tivo-ing it and skipping the commercials or downloading it without commercials, right?

Re:NO DRM = more ads ? (1)

rikkards (98006) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705659)

I mean, most still watch tv with ads, instead of tivo-ing it and skipping the commercials or downloading it without commercials, right?

Nope. I have a PVR and I still download most stuff rather than fastfoward through commercials. The only thing I use my PVR for is stuff that isn't high demand

Ouch (5, Interesting)

Grimfaire (856043) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704673)

Someone really needs to fire whomever the MPAA uses for deciding on security for these things. Haven't they heard the golden rule of computer security? "Security by obscurity is no security" and that's all they are doing is trying to hide a key. Find the key... no security. Sheesh....

Re:Ouch (1)

geoff lane (93738) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704789)

With the added bonus realization that it only has to happen *once* in the digital domain and you've got "perfect sound (and video) for ever".

Re:Ouch (4, Insightful)

Kimos (859729) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704933)

It's not the fault of the MPAA directly. It's the fundamental flaw of DRM.

Encryption works because parties A and B exchange data that is encrypted with a key that party C does not have. In the case of DRM, you have the encrypted data and you have the keys that you need to decrypt and view the data. You are in essence parties B and C. They hide the key from you in the players and software, but it's there if you know how to find it. That's why DRM can and will never work. It's security through obscurity.

Re:Ouch (1)

ad0gg (594412) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705047)

Security by obscurity is a valid security principle but it shouldn't be used alone. It should part of your overall security implementation. Problem with DRM, and why it will always fail, is that the consumer/user needs the ability to decrypt the protected content. Consumer/user has to have access to the decryption key.

Re:Ouch (1)

Pharmboy (216950) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705153)

Security by obscurity is a valid security principle but it shouldn't be used alone.

At best, "Security by obscurity" is a way to buy a little bit of time, nothing more.

this is what we needed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18704677)

this should finally put the nail in the coffin of this stupid effort by the HD-DVD people to try and stop people doing what they have a legal right to do (make a personal back up copy under fair use). I hope they respond by stopping the Xbox player from playing HD-DVDs and then we can finally lose the whole damn crappy format

Next stop - PS3 and Blu-ray!

Re:this is what we needed (4, Interesting)

prelelat (201821) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705079)

I know what your saying and I agree with it, but having the legal right to make a copy doesn't mean that they don't have the right to try and stop you. I just wish that they would realize that most people like to buy stuff, I know I like to buy DVDs it makes me feel warm and fuzzy to be like "Hey I bought the whole (insert show or movie) series". But the truth is that its too expensive to buy everything I would like to. Production costs at this point of the DVD release have usually been covered(excluding making the menu releasing extra content and having a commentary that I never listen to except on south park dvds) the packaging and DVD for a season of south park is about 50 dollars canadian when it comes out. It probably cost them 5 dollars to make(my guess and some might say it was high some might say it was low theres 3 dvds in there with graphic lables and casing and maybe shipping not sure if the store pays for that or not) so lets say the store like HMV or Best Buy makes about 10 dollars off of the sale. Thats 35 dollar profit for the manufacture. Lets say you pay Matt Stone and Trey Parker to do their commentaries for it, they probably get a % of sales. so if you sell 100,000 dvds of one season you get 3.5 million dollars, say matt and trey take 10% each the studio is left with 2.8 million.
if you reduced the cost so that a box set costs 40 dollars using the same numbers you end up with 2 million. This gives you less profit right? Well if people are more willing to buy a dvd at 40 dollars and you get 150 000 dvd sales you end up with a final profit of 3.75 3 million dollars. Your making more money. I know nothing and I'm bored so don't take me too cereal. I know people will still pirate dvds but people will always pirate dvds, you won't stop them. Use the money that your putting into research to reduce the cost of the product and sell it and I bet you will have less people pirating or at least buying a legit copy after pirating or before making a backup. I know I would.

I find it bad form that I've paid 8*45+20(best of volume was cheaper) for my south park dvd collection. Thats almost 400 dollars. come to think of it that seems insane, and thats not my only collection. Most people can't aford that and I can see why they pirate or make backups. Would you want to go out and spend that again if your DVD got wrecked by a scratch?

I were one of the cracking groups... (3, Interesting)

Firethorn (177587) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704695)

I'd try to crack the stuff from a number of different fronts, but keep quiet until I've cracked a few. With several cracks and exploits found, I'd be able to start working on higher level cracks, due to understanding the system.

Then I'd start releasing the cracks, starting with some of the simpler ones, only releasing another when they patch the exploit I released, resulting in an ongoing sense of futility as every time they fix the holes, I point out another.

Best exploit I think? Stealing or cracking the key to every code created for the discs. That way they'd have to throw the whole system out in order to achieve 'security' again. No current players would work. While a massive beowolf cluster cracking the whole thing would be neat and worthy of the NSA, I think that's unlikely. More possible but still pretty much 'mission impossible' would be a physical theft. If only the DVD Security Group protected those keys like government officials protect our information*...

hm...

*Yes, I'm still a bit irked about having my info stolen at least three times

Re:I were one of the cracking groups... (1, Redundant)

garcia (6573) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704827)

I'd try to crack the stuff from a number of different fronts, but keep quiet until I've cracked a few. With several cracks and exploits found, I'd be able to start working on higher level cracks, due to understanding the system.

No, it's better to keep the industry fucking around with each one as they come out than to have a couple at once (hell, how do you know they haven't already cracked a few into the future?).

This kind of release pattern will continue to drive the industry bonkers while they try to yank licenses, patch bugs, and obsolete hardware and keys.

They will never ever give up and neither will we.

Re:I were one of the cracking groups... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18705027)

They will never ever give up and neither will we.

What have you cracked?

Re:I were one of the cracking groups... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18705177)

Oh you douchebag. Fuck off.

Re:I were one of the cracking groups... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18705293)

Struck a nerve, eh Billy?

Poseur.

Re:I were one of the cracking groups... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18705797)

No he's just a Dopebrain smoking crack, as well as all kinds of other things. Still think all that E had no effect, Bill?

Re:I were one of the cracking groups... (1)

644bd346996 (1012333) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705139)

What he was suggesting was to find several cracks, then start releasing them one by one, and in the meantime, try to find broader cracks. That keeps the industry on the defensive, and gives the crackers time to try to do more before things get patched. Unfortunately, enough crackers are after fame that that strategy would never work.

Re:I were one of the cracking groups... (2, Insightful)

kebes (861706) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705105)

The problem with what you describe is that the hacking groups are basically engaged in a (friendly?) competition with each other. All the hacker groups know that any copy-protection will eventually be broken, but "the fun" is in trying to do it *first*. So if one group kept quiet and tried to amass a bunch of cool hacks, they would be "beat" by another group who releases news that they've cracked device X or extracted title key Y. No matter how quiet some hacker groups decide to be, there will always be other groups who don't want to stay quiet. Hence there's no point in trying to keep it secret. If you've got a crack, you may as well take credit for it right away.

Add to this the fact that hacking these devices in general will go much faster if everyone shares what information they've obtained thus far (e.g. the open source philosophy). This also avoids wasted effort on duplicate hacks. For better or worse, it's a fact of life that these cracks will come early and often.

(Note: All of the above is pure speculation. If any of the members of said groups wish to clarify their motivations for releasing hacks early and often, please do so!)

Re:I were one of the cracking groups... (1)

Firethorn (177587) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705353)

I was assuming that the hackers/crackers have some private channels of communication, I was talking about the public general release stuff.

By keeping quiet about cracks, that's more discs covered by each crack, as they don't pull the key until it's cracked, thus more production.

Re:I were one of the cracking groups... (5, Informative)

mhall119 (1035984) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705151)

It's not a matter of one cracked key being easy, and another being hard. The fact of the matter is that once you crack a device, it's wide open, there is no more cracking left to be done on that device. It also means that once you crack one device, you have access to all the movies published to date, so cracking another device doesn't gain you anything.

From my understanding, the AACS system is already a very well understood system. It is actually documented and available for public viewing. The way these people are obtaining keys is by finding design flaws in the way different devices implement the system. For WinDVD, it was found that one of the keys is available in system memory at a given point while loading the disc content, and could be captured by reading the right memory address. I'm sure something similar is happening with the XBox360 keys.

The WinDVD key was revoked by AACS, and future movies will not be playable on the cracked version of WinDVD, but a free upgrade to WinDVD will use a new key that cannot be obtained the same way. Revoking the XBox key for future movies will be more problematic, since it would presumably require a firmware upgrade, and making the HD-DVD's most popular playback device unable to play the newest blockbuster movie won't be good for HD-DVD sales.

Brute-force cracking all, or even a small number, of the AACS device keys would take years, probably tens or hundreds of years (I'm not sure exactly what the device key length is). Finding ways to make a playback device give up that information is much faster and easier. Further more, once you crack a single device key, you can get the encryption key for the content of any movie, then anybody can decrypt that movie based on that key, without need of the device or device key. Going back to the WinDVD keys, any movie encrypted with the old WinDVD key can now be decrypted, making a whole generation of HD movies available DRM-free.

Re:I were one of the cracking groups... (1)

Firethorn (177587) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705469)

It's not a matter of one cracked key being easy, and another being hard. The fact of the matter is that once you crack a device, it's wide open, there is no more cracking left to be done on that device. It also means that once you crack one device, you have access to all the movies published to date, so cracking another device doesn't gain you anything.

I figure that some devices are harder than others. Simple fact. I was simply talking about not releasing a crack while another one's still 'active' IE the security group hasn't revoked the key yet.

By not releasing that they've cracked the XBox before the WinDVD's keys were revoked, that means that they can't patch both sets and revoke the keys at once.

XBox isn't the greatest to crack in my mind, it's still too easy to update. You could simply place an auto-update on a number of general release games/DVDs. Somebody has a problem who isn't networked and doesn't buy new games or sony videos, simply mail them a patch disc.

Such happy news... (-1, Offtopic)

kihjin (866070) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704707)

OMG SMILIES! :) :) :)

Revocation? (1)

HTH NE1 (675604) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704777)

So, how long until my XBOX 360 HD-DVD drive, which I've yet to use even once (waiting for support in Leopard), officially becomes a doorstop, boatanchor, call-it-what-you-will?

"I could have you[r HD-DVD drive] revoked."
"Revoked?"
"Yeah, K-I-L-L-E-D, revoked."

Re:Revocation? (1)

BobPaul (710574) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705657)

New software dvd players may refuse to use it/force you to update the firmware, but my understanding is that if you only use the drive for cracking and never playback, it will not become a doorstop--you'll be able to use it to get volume keys indefinitely.

Looks like (5, Funny)

Some_Llama (763766) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704785)

The race is on, let me tell you from the perspective of online gaming and the cheat vs cheat detection wars:

The hackers have the edge.

But if you develop the AACS standard at least you have job security ;)

Re:Looks like (1)

just_another_sean (919159) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705249)

But if you develop the AACS standard at least you have job security ;)

Well if your a coder maybe, if you designed the spec? I just hope they gave the poor sucker a few minutes of head start!

Re:Looks like (1)

Some_Llama (763766) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705303)

"I just hope they gave the poor sucker a few minutes of head start!"

With the turn around of the last crack, it seems this is exactly how much head start they gave....



(yes i meant coders, stupid early morning wit! Teh coffee does nothing!)

Anyone else notice... (5, Funny)

djdbass (1037730) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704787)

...this is just barely 24 hours after they announced it was fixed? Great work to those involved. Hell I can't get a change approved in 24 hours!

Re:Anyone else notice... (1)

chrisv (12054) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705043)

Heh. By the Doom9 forum, they had this 5 days before WinDVD and such were patched - so make that -120 hours ;)

Actually a success (4, Insightful)

zeroharmada (1004484) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704929)

While I think everybody has been making good points so far, you have to remember that in the long term copy protection is actually winning. While these measures might be meant in name to stop piracy, their true value is in taking out fair use as collateral damage. The goal of DRM is not to stop piracy, but to make it difficult enough that Joe User will not be able to convert or make backups through a point and click interface. If this copy protection has done that, then it is making them money.... shame all it does is hurt the people who legitimately buy their products.

Re:Actually a success (3, Insightful)

jfengel (409917) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705149)

Do you really think that there's this enormous market of people buying replacements of DVDs that they've already bought but lost or broke?

Or buying a second copy on iTunes because they can't play the DVD on their iPod?

I mean, I'm sure these things happen, but I can't imagine that it's a significant percentage of the market. It seems to me that if they removed the DRM entirely and stopped trying to shut down P2P sharing software, so that you'd have no difficulty downloading anything you wanted, they'd lose far, far more potential sales to people downloading rather than buying.

Re:Actually a success (1)

mrchaotica (681592) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705571)

Do you really think that there's this enormous market of people buying replacements of DVDs that they've already bought but lost or broke?

Or buying a second copy on iTunes because they can't play the DVD on their iPod?

I mean, I'm sure these things happen, but I can't imagine that it's a significant percentage of the market.

Even a single person doing one of these things is a failure of Fair Use, and is therefore unacceptable.

Re:Actually a success (1)

jfengel (409917) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705921)

I wasn't aware that Fair Use was one of those holy rights, like life, liberty, & pursuit of happiness.

So playing the same game, if even a single person who would buy a BloodRayne DVD decides to download it instead, that's a failure of Copyright, and is therefore unacceptable.

We have a conflict of rights. Have you got a better solution other than "my right trumps everybody else's"?

joe user doesnt have to have a ripping utility... (1)

plasmacutter (901737) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705471)

joe user doesn't have to have a ripping utility to regain fair use from this copy protected media.

hd-dvd and bd rips have been showing up on trackers as early as the first crack, and to make things even cushier from a fair use perspective, the media files are generally small enough to burn to a single layer dvd-r (or at most double-layer).. much more accessible to joe user than an overpriced bd or hd-dvd burner (do those even exist yet? how many thousands if they do exist?)

Re:Actually a success (1)

danpsmith (922127) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705487)

While I think everybody has been making good points so far, you have to remember that in the long term copy protection is actually winning. While these measures might be meant in name to stop piracy, their true value is in taking out fair use as collateral damage. The goal of DRM is not to stop piracy, but to make it difficult enough that Joe User will not be able to convert or make backups through a point and click interface. If this copy protection has done that, then it is making them money.... shame all it does is hurt the people who legitimately buy their products.

Yeah, but if you buy a disc, I for one wouldn't feel the least bit bad about using bittorrent to download a ripped copy with full rights. Or hell, skip buying and go right for the ripped copy.

Great but (1)

Rik Sweeney (471717) | more than 7 years ago | (#18704931)

Doesn't the lack of HDMI output on the 360 make this a bit of a pointless exercise?

Re:Great but (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18705031)

You can connect the Xbox360 HD-DVD drive to a PC, so ... no, not really pointless.

Re:Great but (1)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705071)

You haven't been following the news, eh? The 360 'elite' that will be sold very soon has HDMI as one of it's main new features. The other is a larger hard drive.

Re:Great but (1)

DShard (159067) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705257)

It doesn't matter that it doesn't have HDMI after you strip the encryption and play the file from your laptop/media center/DVR

Re:Great but (1)

Nirvelli (851945) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705781)

The drive is a USB drive. They're using it on a computer and the crack lets them rip the disc to the computer.
So the 360's output doesn't really matter.

Irony potential ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18705073)

What if the famed power of the PS3 were utilised to break the AACS for every blue-ray disk ?

AACS (4, Funny)

dattaway (3088) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705103)

Another Aacs Crack Soon

Re:AACS (5, Funny)

Dorceon (928997) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705171)

How about: AACS Ain't Cryptographically Secure

Re:AACS (2, Funny)

dattaway (3088) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705277)

Another Attempt Compromised Security

Re:AACS (1)

ThisNukes4u (752508) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705897)

Well, more like the implementations aren't cryptographically secure.

The biggest blunder of this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18705161)

is the part where they left the commands in the firmware to "poke" into the drive's memory. That's just... not good for security. Alas, you still need access to the key from the MKB to create the processing key using the VolumeID, so there's still work to do.

I wonder (1)

BCW2 (168187) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705191)

When will all the various DRMorons figure out that whatever they create WILL get cracked. They can't win. What a bunch of wasted time & effort! If they adapted their business model to current technology they might see an increase in sales.

Re:I wonder (2, Interesting)

photomonkey (987563) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705903)

They don't care if it gets cracked. They only care how difficult it is to keep up with the crack-patch cycle. Their goal is to make it difficult or risky for John Q. Everyman to copy movies and music.

They have to know that all their security measures will be broken. They can win by attrition.

Kudos! (2, Insightful)

iviagnus (854023) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705225)

When will they ever learn? What they can conceive, we can circumvent. Either the MPAA/RIAA will bow to consumer demand by (providing content at a much lower price) or they might as well close up shop. Really now, do actors need to be making 12 million dollars for a film? I think not. Likewise, start at the corporate top, and start making salary cuts at the CEO-level.

Hacking (3, Insightful)

alphamugwump (918799) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705337)

This is some sweet hacking.

How ironic that we need to hack hardware that we ourselves own.

Give me a lock. Give me the key to that lock. (1)

mmell (832646) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705455)

The key can only be used by media; I can plainly see that the key is quite intricate and ornate, and clearly stamped "Do not duplicate".

Yup - no concievable way I can get a key for my own use to unlock the lock. Can't be done - not even gonna try! All those other cracks I've heard about - I know that none of them could possibly have worked, the *AA has seen to it that the deCSS debacle can't be repeated, right?

Tell ya what - I don't even pay attention to this - let me know when a movie worth watching comes out on Blu-Ray or HD-DVD and I'll start to pay attention - so far, the folks at *AA can just color me unimpressed!

Don't use cracks (2, Insightful)

iamacat (583406) | more than 7 years ago | (#18705815)

There are plenty of entertainment options. You can watch regular TV, videos on YouTube or just take a walk in the park. Why go out of the way to patronize people who are not willing to serve content the way you like it?
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