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453 comments

Unfair comparison (5, Insightful)

catxk (1086945) | about 7 years ago | (#18732377)

I guess brand new massively hyped iPhone is more important to Apple than the difference between OS X 10.4 and 10.5 during the limited time period of the summer of 2007.

Re:Unfair comparison (4, Insightful)

AKAImBatman (238306) | about 7 years ago | (#18732393)

Pretty much. This isn't "Apple Vista" we're talking about here. 10.4 is a good OS and there's no rush to upgrade. I think we'll all survive waiting for 10.5 if it means that the iPhone (something which is completely unavailable to the market) gets here faster.

From a business perspective, Apple doesn't want their major announcements overlapping. So delaying the OS by a few months means that they can provide a steady stream of announcements.

Re:Unfair comparison (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732493)

What an idiot.

Re:Unfair comparison (5, Funny)

HAKdragon (193605) | about 7 years ago | (#18732735)

Pretty much. This isn't "Apple Vista" we're talking about here. 10.4 is a good OS and there's no rush to upgrade.

There doesn't seem to be much of a rush to upgrade to Vista either.

Re:Unfair comparison (2, Insightful)

ClaraBow (212734) | about 7 years ago | (#18732425)

I think it means that it is more important to get a new product out the door on time and working properly than to deliver an upgrade to an already mature and polished product.

Re:Unfair comparison (4, Insightful)

Divebus (860563) | about 7 years ago | (#18732505)

Since Vista has proven to be absolutely no competition to even the current OS X, what's the rush for Leopard? Get the iPhone right and they'll have a HUGE winner on their hands. A million people [reuters.com] have already queried AT&T about the iPhone through the notification list at Cingular [cingular.com], so who's your daddy?

Re:Unfair comparison (1, Interesting)

joto (134244) | about 7 years ago | (#18732623)

Since Vista has proven to be absolutely no competition to even the current OS X

What do you mean? There are probably at least 10 times as many new computers sold with Vista, as with OS X. If Apple had sold operating systems instead of mp3-players, they would have been bankrupt by now. On the other hand, Bill Gates is in no danger of being bankrupt soon.

Re:Unfair comparison (2, Interesting)

limecat4eva (1055464) | about 7 years ago | (#18732683)

The problem with people like you is that you judge success and failure by how fucking popular they are among the market. You have your charts and your spreadsheets full of demographic numbers. This is why you will always be a follower, never a leader. Good grief. If the world were composed only of you and your ilk, life would be very fucking bleak indeed.

Why is it so hard for you linear thinkers to imagine that there exist different ways to value one's work?

Re:Unfair comparison (1)

Tragek (772040) | about 7 years ago | (#18732809)

Here's a congratulations. You have no idea how much that read like a Fake Steve [blogspot.com] post. Or maybe you do. Either way. Congratulations.

Competition v. Value (1)

Junta (36770) | about 7 years ago | (#18732825)

He was refuting the claim that Vista is no *competition* for OSX, in a thread discussing the business merits of this move. From a Business perspective, where the *money* flows is key, and by any stretch of measuring, MS has probably seen more cash-flow for Vista to date than Apple would claim directly for OSX since 10.0, adding in system sales they might attribute to OSX might shift the picture, but that's hard to measure, since iPod and OSX have been responsible for Apple overall popularity gains. Vista hasn't been a widely sought after upgrade, but PC purchases swelling have been fortuitous for MS.

But I think from Apple's perspective they know Tiger won't make a bit of difference. Some people running OSX today might buy an upgrade, people who happen to be buying Apple's after Tiger's release will get Tiger, and the people running Windows will be no more likely to switch for Tiger than they are to switch for released OSX versions. They know they can't let it fall out of date, but also know there is no significant profit potential to be milked.

Yes OSX has nice features and if I had to choose between Windows and OSX of their own merits, I'd choose OSX, but saying that Vista is no competition for it and scoffing is blatantly dismissing reality. I run linux, but I don't dare scoff and say 'Windows is no competition to linux'. Linux may be better by many measures than Windows, but to declare across the board Windows has nothing, it would make me sound like a stupid zealot.

Re:Unfair comparison (4, Insightful)

Divebus (860563) | about 7 years ago | (#18732793)

What do you mean? There are probably at least 10 times as many new computers sold with Vista, as with OS X

That's down from 20 times a few years ago. Two-thirds of the people in my office drop kicked their PCs and bought Macs in the last couple of years. That's a trend I'm watching first hand. Those who still want/need a new PC are trying to figure out where to get one with XP. They don't even WANT Vista but that's what's shipping now, like it or not. I've shown a few PC users XP under Parallels and they all had that "aha" moment. More switchers, albeit AC/DC.

Re:Unfair comparison (4, Insightful)

SuperMog2002 (702837) | about 7 years ago | (#18732801)

Because the release of Vista hasn't really made a dent in Mac sales. Sure, Vista's sold many more copies than Mac OS X has, which everyone should have expected given the market four months ago (i.e. MS dominates and almost all new computers ship with Windows). The key is that, year over year, Apple's sales are still increasing, even though last year they didn't have to compete with Vista and this year they do. Sure, when the iPod first came out 5 years ago, maybe MP3 players were all that was keeping Apple alive. However, today Mac sales are self sustaining and rising.

In my mind, there was never much of a doubt that Vista would do well. Microsoft just had too much momentum for it to flop. What's up the air right now, especially if it takes 5 years to come out, is Windows 7. MS's momentum is decreasing, and if they don't reverse the trend, then they eventually won't have enough to get another free pass like Vista. The fact that Vista didn't slow Mac sales is bad for them. Very bad.

Re:Unfair comparison (4, Interesting)

bgfay (5362) | about 7 years ago | (#18732851)

http://www.paulgraham.com/microsoft.html [paulgraham.com]

Paul Graham's article "Microsoft is Dead" [paulgraham.com] may be applicable here. For me, I'm no longer worried about buying another Windows machine (yes, I'm on XP right now) because I no longer use apps that are tied to Windows. In fact, as things go, I use fewer and fewer apps that aren't web based. I just don't need them any more. Beyond that, most of the apps I use have free alternatives and I use them.

The one proprietary application I still use is iTunes with my iPod. So a Mac machine might work for me next time around. I want one because they are so well designed, unlike this HP piece of junk whose battery doesn't make it an hour, and because friends and family have all had very good experiences.

Then again, I might just throw the whole lot out and buy something cheap and put Ubuntu on it.

Whatever the case, there's more to the equation than Bill Gates's relative worth.

Indeed... (4, Insightful)

someone300 (891284) | about 7 years ago | (#18732569)

What's up with these binary comparisons? Just because OS X 10.5 was delayed a few months for the iPhone doesn't mean anything to do with OS X being unimportant. The iPhone runs OS X; it must be important.

Most users are happy with 10.4 and 10.5 is more of a luxury than a necessity. All this means is that 10.4 is sufficient that the general Apple buyer isn't screaming for OS improvements, but that the market may indeed be screaming for a decent mobile phone, like they were screaming for a decent MP3 player around when the iPod gained in popularity.

Anyway, a lot of the funds and improvements from the potential success from the iPhone will probably be funneled back into OS X and the Mac hardware. Haven't some of the improvements in 10.5, like Core Animation, been brought about due to the iPhone already?

Re:Indeed... (1)

Divebus (860563) | about 7 years ago | (#18732731)

Two things - It's a signal that Microsoft doesn't matter nearly as much as they used to. With the majority avoiding Vista like the plague, it's way down the cometitive radar screen for Apple which used to chase Microsoft. I'm sure everyone in Redmond smiled for a moment when the Leopard delay was announced... then sank into mild funk realizing Apple would be that much further ahead once the iPhone AND Leopard shipped in time for Vista SP1 - and the holidays.

Second, Apple is consciously missing the school buying season with Leopard - but so what? Anyone who is on the fence with switching to a Mac will probably do it anyway. Steve Jobs should do the right thing and supply a coupon for a free-ish Leopard upgrade with any computer purchased from June through October to solve any questions about the impact of the delay. Besides, who wouldn't want a REALLY cool pocket computer [cingular.com] for school?

So, get on the stick Apple. You're still Microsoft's R&D department whether you like it or not.

Massive Problems (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732379)

All it indicates is that there are massive stability problems with the iPhone software and that it will never work.

Re:Massive Problems (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732591)

...it will never work

Will too!

What can wait? (4, Funny)

Scrameustache (459504) | about 7 years ago | (#18732405)

Cell phone buyers, or releasing the preview to Microsoft's next OS features?

...and you know the end product never lives up to the previews ;-)

Re:What can wait? (4, Funny)

Rakshasa Taisab (244699) | about 7 years ago | (#18732535)

I don't know about you, but Windows Vista certainly lived up to my expectations. It might even have surpassed them by a little.

BTW, don't take this to mean I'd ever be willing to come within 5km of a computer running it though.

The summary misses the obvious (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732407)

They aren't Apple Computer anymore. They dropped Computer from their name, which is clear evidence that products like iPhone are as, if not more, important as their computer business.

Hi, you don't "get it" (0)

limecat4eva (1055464) | about 7 years ago | (#18732477)

Apple is not now, nor has it ever been, a computer company. Do you really think Jobs et al. are limited in their vision to fiddly boxes dangling keyboards and mice? No, those are just the means to a greater end.

I don't doubt the likes of Michael Dell or Steve Ballmer would disagree with this assessment. That's okay; nobody expects those dunderheads to get the point.

Re:Hi, you don't "get it" (1)

giorgiofr (887762) | about 7 years ago | (#18732537)

I wish I were a dunderhead too if that means showering in money.

Re:Hi, you don't "get it" (1)

limecat4eva (1055464) | about 7 years ago | (#18732613)

Good grief, I wouldn't. What's the point of money if you lack the taste and intelligence to spend it wisely?

I mean, if you're a Ballmer or a Dell, you're clearly tolerant enough of mediocrity to be satisfied by the shit you pump out to market. And you don't need a lot of money to fill your life with shit and glitter, if that's what you're after.

Re:Hi, you don't "get it" (1)

empaler (130732) | about 7 years ago | (#18732633)

"What the hell are you doing? Do like those guys over there instead! They're Apple for chrissakes!"

"But... I'm getting literal truck after truck with cash driven to my new underwater palace..."


Seriously, if you have a business model that gives you certain cash flow, it is understandable if you don't want to consider copying someone elses business model if it is uncertain cash flow for anyone but them.

Re:Hi, you don't "get it" (1)

dotbenjamin (1034650) | about 7 years ago | (#18732605)

I agree. Apple isn't even called Apple Computers anymore.

Not that the submitter seems to have noticed.

Re:Hi, you don't "get it" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732681)

> Apple is not now, nor has it ever been, a computer company.

You made this same comment on the other article, and you are just wrong. Apple started out as a computer company. They sold computers and software, and that was all. Maybe they're a "digital lifestyle" company now, but they USED to be a computer company: Apple Computer, Inc.

And they did it to make money. You really must have drunk Jobs' kool-aid if you believe they were only doing it for the Betterment of Humankind.

Re:Hi, you don't "get it" (1)

limecat4eva (1055464) | about 7 years ago | (#18732753)

Yeah, you don't get it. I'm not surprised, either, on a site like Slashdot where everyone seems to have tunnel vision regarding the applicability of technology to solve everyday problems.

Wasn't it only a few months ago here that everyone here was predicting the PS3 would pummel the Wii in the market, since people so obviously prefer superior technobabble to superior fun? How'd that turn out, champ?

Re:Hi, you don't "get it" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732789)

> Yeah, you don't get it. I'm not surprised, either, on a site like Slashdot where everyone seems to have tunnel vision
> regarding the applicability of technology to solve everyday problems.

What the fuck are you talking about? Apple didn't even know the Apple II could do useful work until VisiCalc came along.

Tell me, what exactly do I not "get"?

Re:Hi, you don't "get it" (1)

limecat4eva (1055464) | about 7 years ago | (#18732821)

I already told you. I can't help you, an (apparently) reasonably intelligent person with unfortunate dweebish tendencies, if you refuse to approach reality with a mindset relevant to the way "the rest of us" live.

But if you're serious about trying to understand, I'd start by asking why VisiCalc is your definition of "useful work."

So Ignorant. (0, Troll)

commisaro (1007549) | about 7 years ago | (#18732423)

I wouldn't expect the common person to understand this, but it's something you learn in business school: You put your key programmers on the project that's LEAST important. Trust me. It all makes sense.

Re:So Ignorant. (2, Interesting)

Mr Chund Man (1013539) | about 7 years ago | (#18732565)

I'm not trolling, but i'd genuinely be interested in a brief summary or some references for this statement.

Re:So Ignorant. (1)

limecat4eva (1055464) | about 7 years ago | (#18732707)

No, you're not trolling. You're just a literalist yahoo in a postliteral (indeed, postliterate) world.

Or perhaps it's true what they say about irony being well and truly dead. If so, it was you, with the anvil, in the corral. Congratulations on your accomplishment.

Re:So Ignorant. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732811)

I think you'd need a sense of humor before you need any "references".

Rumor has it (2, Insightful)

falcon5768 (629591) | about 7 years ago | (#18732431)

That Apple wasnt delaying to for the iPhone more than they are delaying it for some secret additions to the codebase and the testing involved for it that we will get a hint of come WWDC.

Call me crazy (1)

avirrey (972127) | about 7 years ago | (#18732433)

...but when I read the subject line, I imagined a team of executives, military men and helicopters keeping a leopard at bay in the wild, while they looked for one of their prototype iPhones in the grass.

"FOUNT IT!"

"Ok, you may now pass Mr. Kitty"

~A
--
X's and O's for all my foes.

Re:Call me crazy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732749)

uhh...wtf?

They're playing the hype (5, Insightful)

oskard (715652) | about 7 years ago | (#18732435)

I don't know what Leopard is. I know what an iPhone is. You know why?

Because the iPhone is on the news, tv, radio; everyone is talking about it. It is absolutely more important than OSX at the moment. The iPhone could potentially be Apple's new iPod.

Re:They're playing the hype (1)

joto (134244) | about 7 years ago | (#18732689)

I don't know what Leopard is.

A leopard is an animal related to cats (but bigger) living in parts of Africa and Asia. There are several varieties of them, living in different regions.

I know what an iPhone is. You know why?

Because you are more interested in cell-phones than zoology?

iPhone, OS X, what's the difference? (2, Interesting)

limecat4eva (1055464) | about 7 years ago | (#18732443)

Let's not forget that many OS features on which the iPhone depends are practically guaranteed to make an appearance on the desktop version of OS X, whether that happens in Leopard or the next version after. Things like resolution independence, multitouch, smooth scrolling, Core Animation.

On a related note, I can't wait until OS X and apps begin expecting high-res displays and multitouch input, making the marriage of OS to hardware ever more obvious even to the squarest of squares. Finally that ought to silence the clueless pundits who still try to peg Apple as either a hardware or a software company.

This piece doesn't make much sense.... (0)

TomHandy (578620) | about 7 years ago | (#18732445)

I don't think this piece ever really justifies its argument. It seems to be saying that Apple is doing this because they need to make sure their loyal fanbase stays focused on hyping the iPhone, and if they release Leopard at the same time the iPhone comes out (in June), it will distract from the iPhone and Apple's fanbase won't hype it up?

This just doesn't make sense. The big problem is that the actual evidence from looking at Apple's fanbase shows that the opposite reaction has occurred. Not only are a lot of Apple fans pissed off that Leopard isn't coming out in June, but the people who are specifically Mac fans are even more ticked off about the iPhone being the cause of the delay. These are the people who are Mac fans, but not necessarily fans of anything Apple makes, and see the iPhone and the iPod as examples of Apple losing focus on the Mac, and focusing too much attention on consumer electronics, etc.

So the fundamental argument this guy is making doesn't hold water. Delaying Leopard doesn't do anything to change how people who are hyped up about the iPhone will react and contribute to the "hype". And it only serves to make the rest of Apple's loyal fanbase like the product less than before.

Re:This piece doesn't make much sense.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732491)

No, it does.
Because there are more "generic Apple fans" than Mac fans... So the Mac fans aren't happy, but the generic apple fanboys are :)
Quantity vs. Quality, and with Apple, quantity of fanboys wins.

Re:This piece doesn't make much sense.... (1)

gad_zuki! (70830) | about 7 years ago | (#18732813)

Makes perfect sense to me. Apple has become a consumer electronics goods company, thus the name change. Theyre a leader in portable music players and are tired of locking horns with MS, Dell, etc in the PC marketplace. I wouldnt be surprised if they stopped making computers in 10 years or just sold vanity windows laptops like Sony does with the VAIO line.

I dont see any harm in what apple is doing. Its loyalists can wait quite a bit for the next version of OSX. Its not like theyre going to jump ship to Dell. Apple's offerings are fashionable consumer lifestyle products more than they are computers. Apple delaying OSX is like Gucci raising the prices on their handbags. If anything, it just makes the product more desirable for those who have internalized the Apple brand.

Yes! (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732455)

Does that mean that the iPhone is more important to Apple than Mac OS?

Did nobody else notice that when Jobs announced the iPhone, he also renamed the company to take the word "Computer" out of it?

That sounds kind of, well, I dunno, strategic to me.

A bit too much drama (2, Insightful)

kzg (634262) | about 7 years ago | (#18732471)

Its been delayed only 4 months, I don't know what all the drama is for. In fact, this extra development time is going to be very beneficial, because they are going to release a full beta at WWDC for developers.

Regurgitating blog posts (1, Offtopic)

despik (691728) | about 7 years ago | (#18732483)

Apple Computers is notoriously quite about the future of their products

I don't suppose the opinions stated in this blog post deserve much attention if the author can't be bothered to write the name of the company correctly.

Re:Regurgitating blog posts (1)

admactanium (670209) | about 7 years ago | (#18732631)

I don't suppose the opinions stated in this blog post deserve much attention if the author can't be bothered to write the name of the company correctly.
nor proof it beyond running the obligatory spell-check. "quite about the future". the worst thing about blogging is that poorly written crap like this looks "official enough" to the general public.

Not to be trite, but... (1)

IANAAC (692242) | about 7 years ago | (#18732745)

"quite about the future"

That would have easily passed any decent spell checker. What you're probably thinking of is a grammar chacker, none of which are or have ever been very good.

Re:Not to be trite, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732857)

That would have easily passed any decent spell checker. What you're probably thinking of is a grammar chacker, none of which are or have ever been very good.

Perhaps you could start with a spell checker.

but.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732499)

i thought it was a given that... "adding programmers to a late software project only makes it later"

I Think Their Excuse is Lame (4, Insightful)

Black-Man (198831) | about 7 years ago | (#18732533)

Pulling QA and Software Engineers off the Leopard project onto iPhone?? I don't care if its the "same" OS, i.e. iPhone using the mobile version of OSX. Adding developers and QA towards the end of a project lifecycle usually means disaster. I'm curious to see if they pull it off.

Re:I Think Their Excuse is Lame (1, Insightful)

matts-reign (824586) | about 7 years ago | (#18732627)

I think that more accurately what is happening is the OSX developers are focusing on the iPhone port rather than the desktop version -- They're both running the same operating system; more than likely the programmers aren't really being "moved", just refocused.

Re:I Think Their Excuse is Lame (1)

DingerX (847589) | about 7 years ago | (#18732645)

My thoughts exactly. It doesn't work like that. You can triple the "man hours" at the end, but:

A) if there are QA issues, finding the bugs is never a bottleneck; it's getting people to fix them. That means "tuning people" in to the project. People shifted to a mature project at the last minute are going to be much less efficient than those who were working on it, and can even be counterproductive.

B) If it's problems with some of the features or implementations, having more meetings is only going to slow things down.

C) If they have to add functionality, they're screwed.

The most charitable reading of the Apple announcement is: "Well, we're gonna run late on the next $200 incremental upgrade; honestly, it's because we've got the team working on our shiny new iPhone!"

The more substance there is beneath the announcement, the worse it bodes.

Re:I Think Their Excuse is Lame (4, Insightful)

ZachPruckowski (918562) | about 7 years ago | (#18732685)

How do you know it happened just now. It could have happened 3 months ago, and they're just telling us now. For all we know, those programmers could have been reassigned last year (in like Oct) and are now heading back to Leopard (which is why we now have a time estimate on release)

"Excuse" (1)

vertigoCiel (1070374) | about 7 years ago | (#18732835)

Personally, I'm skeptical that the iPhone is the reason they're delaying Leopard. Which sounds better to Wall Street, and the general public: "We had to delay Leopard becouse it's super buggy right now, and we've underestimated how long it would take to fix it," or "We've delayed Leopard in order to work even harder on the most hyped and highest profile consumer device of the year: the iPhone"?

Re:I Think Their Excuse is Lame (1)

Nezer (92629) | about 7 years ago | (#18732847)

There is some speculation that the Leopard delay and the iPhone are completely unrelated except simply as an acceptable excuse to investors about why they are going to miss the originally announced ship date. The speculation is that there are severe show-stopping bugs with some yet-to-be-announced super-secret features in Leopard.

While all of this is pure speculation, as far as I'm aware, it is very Apple-esque to not show all their cards until it's time to ship and the speculation, while just that, does seem plausible.

I tend to agree that yanking resources from OS X to rush the iPhone to market doesn't make a whole lot of sense. First, how many resources (read people) have skillsets that work across both sectors? I'm sure there are a few but there can't be *that* many. Further, a company like Apple, and certainly Steve Jobs, had to have learned a long time ago that 9 women can't produce a baby in one month (unless, of course, one of them is already 8 months pregnant).

Re:I Think Their Excuse is Lame (1)

644bd346996 (1012333) | about 7 years ago | (#18732899)

Adding QA people at this stage is not a bad sign by any means. Apple knows that this will be their most-scrutinized product launch in a very long time. They can't afford to ship an iPhone with any easy to find bugs. It needs to be completely bug free as far as reviewers can tell.

The reassignment of developers is what is concerning. It may be that they are wanting to get more people familiar with the mobile OS X codebase so that they can be ready to fix the bugs that will surface when it hits the market. But that excuse is not enough. I would guess that they are either doing some major security auditing, or they have a very incomplete syncing solution. This is definitely too late to be adding any user-visible features.

Re:Possibly Lame, AlsoTrue (1)

Guanine (883175) | about 7 years ago | (#18732933)

Ahh yes, but John Gruber of Daring Fireball makes the very convincing point that engineers aren't being pulled off anything, but are simply focusing on the iPhone as a part of the overarching development of OS X.

There's a difference between throwing new hires at a late project (which almost never works, and almost always in fact makes things worse), and allocating the OS team the resources it needs. OS X is being asked to do far more - powering both iPhone and Apple TV while continuing its role as a desktop and server OS for the Mac - but with almost no additional engineering talent.
- "Bottleneck [daringfireball.net]"

tiger (1)

minus_273 (174041) | about 7 years ago | (#18732551)

maybe because for many people tiger is just fine and even though leopard will add great features, it wont be like the transition from shit ui phone to iphone

don't be so gullible (5, Insightful)

nanosquid (1074949) | about 7 years ago | (#18732577)

You can't conclude from a press release what the real reason for the delay is. Leopard may be delayed because of the iPhone, or it may be delayed because it's still buggy, or maybe Apple is still trying to file some last minute patents, or maybe it's something completely different.

Occam's razor (0)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | about 7 years ago | (#18732579)

The demo was largely smoke and mirrors, and as it turns out, delivering that level of functionality on an underpowered device requires corners cut and tremendous optimization.

Of all the various theories about why it won't run third-party software, mine is that they don't want people to actually see what they had to do to Mac OS to get it on the device.

Re:Occam's razor (2, Insightful)

rbanffy (584143) | about 7 years ago | (#18732741)

Unixes, in general, are very flexible OSs.

If a Motorola phone can run Linux, most certainly an iPhone can run Darwin.

Even if it doesn't - and Apple goes a different route with the kernel - they still have the BSD layer and most of their userland stuff remains relatively portable as soon as you port the *Kit stuff.

As for the eye candy, it's easy to do decent 2D acceleration even on a low-power device.

I say they are still looking good on the iPhone front.

Quite obvious... (3, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | about 7 years ago | (#18732581)

..it's a matter of which one they can't afford to fail with. I saw a *lot* of mainstream press on the AppleTV, simply because it was Apple. The reviews weren't that great though, and they really can't afford the iPhone to be a flop - they'll go from being the iPod king to so-so producer of stylish consumer electronics. That is far more important to them than missing an OS upgrade (how long was Vista delayed again? Debian etch? It's not like Apple is the bad apple here.

Release early, release often (1)

rbanffy (584143) | about 7 years ago | (#18732603)

I think (Apple has a couple million advisors everywhere) Apple should have aimed lower with 10.5.

They should release 10.5 right before Vista or right after it, with the flashiest features (the ones that increase wow-factor and are easy to do) thrown in and steal Redmond's thunder.

That way, they could even have more time to finish 10.6 with the real (i.e. versioned FS instead of time machine) features and still avoid Vista stealing OSX's spotlight (pun intended).

But that's just me. I bet they have very competent people on their payroll.

Re:Release early, release often (3, Insightful)

owlnation (858981) | about 7 years ago | (#18732703)

I think Apple has no need to aim lower. 10.4 is already better than Vista. There's no pressure on them to rush anything.

Apple makes more money on hardware sales than it does with software. Thus, it makes sense that the iPhone is a priority (if that is actually the case). Apple got a big hardware sales boost with switching to Intel. However many Mac users, such as myself, haven't upgraded to Intel machines because of the delay with Adobe CS3.

Leopard is icing on the cake, and I'm sure it's going to be great, but CS3 is going to sell many more new Macs than Leopard.

Re:Release early, release often (1)

rbanffy (584143) | about 7 years ago | (#18732797)

CS3 will sell more Macs to Mac users and more PCs do Windows users.

Leopard has the opportunity to sell Macs to Windows users.

If done with the right timing, it would inflict a huge damage on Microsoft, neutralizing the colossal effort to launch Vista.

The way it is now, all damage suffered by Microsoft at the Vista launch and after is self-inflicted.

Re:Release early, release often (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732729)

Stealing Redmond's spotlight??? I don't think Apple want's ANY piece of the shitstorm that Redmond's brought down upon themselves. Had Vista not sucked monkey balls you likely would have seen Leopard rushed through. But since that didn't happen and Vista can't even match what the current version of OS X can do there's no risk to delaying Leopard and getting everything right the first time.

Re:Release early, release often (1)

rbanffy (584143) | about 7 years ago | (#18732771)

It was always obviour MS would be easy to kick.

Now they are fallen, we realize it would have been much, much easier (or we could kick them a lot harder and a lot more).

That was a great wasted opportunity.

And don't tell me you don't love to kick their balls.

They've BEEN doing that! (4, Insightful)

phillymjs (234426) | about 7 years ago | (#18732839)

Have you been in a cave on the dark side of the moon since 2000?

During the last five years, Apple released major versions of OS X about every 1-1.5 years while all Microsoft had was XP. Third party developers were actually complaining because of the rapid pace of change of OS X. Before Tiger was released, Apple announced they would be slowing down the pace of their OS X releases. [eweek.com]

I'm disappointed that I have to wait longer than expected for Leopard, but I'd rather they ship it when it's ready-- besides, it's not like they had to scrap it midstream and start over, and then chop all the compelling features to make an already embarassingly late ship date.

  It does make sense to focus on the iPhone right now, because the mobile phone market is much larger than the personal computer market. If Apple gets a nice foothold in it, it will mean more money for them to pour into expanding their presence in the computer market.

~Philly

Re:Release early, release often (1)

16K Ram Pack (690082) | about 7 years ago | (#18732861)

I agree. Apple have missed a golden opportunity.

Right now, Vista is at a weak point. The machines aren't big enough for it, there are driver problems and so forth.

Apple could have generated some noise for Leopard in the meantime.

4 months from now? Driver problems will be solved, machines will be beefier and there will be enough things fixed that Vista will be far more stable.

Follow the money (1)

duffbeer703 (177751) | about 7 years ago | (#18732615)

The margins on a $500 phone are much higher than a computer or operating system, particularly when Cingular is going to be bearing most of the distribution and much of the marketing costs.

WIndows XP SP2 delayed Vista (1)

Joe The Dragon (967727) | about 7 years ago | (#18732617)

Maybe there deadlines for contracts with Cingular that needed to get done be fore ATT took them over?
getting the software retry for FCC testing. The Soft is not 100% done yet but needed to get it to a state in where the FCC can test I-phone out.

Re:WIndows XP SP2 delayed Vista (1)

figleaf (672550) | about 7 years ago | (#18732853)

I can understand a justification like this for an OS of the same platform.
However, I would really surprised if Microsoft would claim Vista was delayed due to Windows Mobile.
The skillsets don't translate well between a small platform like handheld device and full desktop OS.

Since when is incomplete software acceptable?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732637)

Conspiracy theories aside, what if.... WHAT IF.... what's going on is exactly what Apple said is going on? What if they decided to postpone Leopard's release to make sure that everything works as it's supposed to (as opposed to Micro$loth who rushes crappy half-finished software to market simply to say it's out there). Personally I'm happy to wait a few more months for quality software that works as it's supposed to right from day one instead of waiting for some service pack that may or may not fix the problems.

iPhone is ready to go. Why postpone it in favor of leopard if leopard isn't ready? Perception is everything - Vista's already had the shit kicked out of it in the media for being a steamy turd in shiny new wrapping paper because they released software that is barely beta quality. Steve and the boys are not stupid... they promote Apple as hardware and software that "just works". And unless they want to have the same kind of black eye as Micro$loth has they'll make damn sure that Leopard is as closed to perfect as they can get it. Of course there will be bugs... that goes without saying... but the major problems will be worked out before it gets into the public's hands. And that's the way it should be!!!

Have we (and the media) become so accustomed to crappy software being rushed to market that we think that it's the way it's supposed to be? Who in their right mind thinks that delaying a product until it's, oh I dunno, FINISHED is a bad thing????

Re:Since when is incomplete software acceptable?? (1)

wootest (694923) | about 7 years ago | (#18732711)

"A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." - Shigeru Miyamoto

It's no longer the "Apple Computer Company" is it. (2, Insightful)

HerculesMO (693085) | about 7 years ago | (#18732669)

It's the iTunes company.

AppleTV, iPod, iPhone, Airport, etc.... all complements to iTunes.

Re:It's no longer the "Apple Computer Company" is (1)

CliffSpradlin (243679) | about 7 years ago | (#18732845)

Don't know if you heard, but Apple Computer was in the past couple months renamed to Apple, Inc.

This is ridiculous (1)

kalemika (1033980) | about 7 years ago | (#18732677)

I do have to say that this is one of the most stupid things I've ever read on slashdot. A point release for an OS that's already recognized as great, or finish one of the most anticipated products in history on schedule? The choice here for apple is obvious. Especially considering the large amount of hype that was generated by fake iPhones in the months preceding the reveal.

Re:This is ridiculous (1)

beelsebob (529313) | about 7 years ago | (#18732831)

I think you've missed the point here (pun intended). A 'point' release of OS X is not the same as a point release of another OS. OS 10.5 is Mac OS X version 5 (6 actually, because we're zero based here). 10.4.9 was a point release on top of 10.4.8.

I can see why they would delay it (2, Interesting)

snutte (554053) | about 7 years ago | (#18732697)

I shall not lie, im in the telecom buisness makeing software for mobile phones (not Apples though). And one thing I know about is rushing schedules and stuffing in to many features. So if Apple have promised more then they can deliver and need to sort a lot of bugs out before release they sure need to hurry now. Cause if they lack F.O.T.A. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_The_Air_Programm able [wikipedia.org] they might have a firmware upgrade from hell on their hands when it reaches customers. Just my 2 cents.

Captive markets... (1)

Aphrika (756248) | about 7 years ago | (#18732717)

It makes sense for Apple to put a bit more effort into the iPhone because it's a new market - they'll make quite a bit of money off it and sell new product to new customers.

However, Leopard is pretty much a point upgrade to an existing product; there's no threat to its market leverage apart from its successor, and most copies of it will be supplied with a new Mac - put simply, they an afford to let it slip as it's not as big a cash cow and isn't cracking open a new market for them. In fact for Apple, an OS update must be getting a bit dull by now - there's not a huge amount of stuff missing or wrong with it that they could add to teh mix.

iPhone on the other hand has to be right - it's one phone in a sea of hundreds, so that little bit of spit and polish to get things just right could pay off big time.

Re:Captive markets... (1)

nytes (231372) | about 7 years ago | (#18732931)

Your point is pretty much the one I was going to make: Apple stands to make few, if any, new hardware sales by releasing Leopard. The people that want Leopard are most likely already loyal Mac users.

The iPhone, however, stands to create an entirely new user base. For many people, the iPhone will be their first exposure Mac-ness, and could even lead to new sales of other Apple products.

It's because of earnings (1)

Tide (8490) | about 7 years ago | (#18732743)

I read through most of the comments and didn't see anyone state the obvious. Earnings are due next week for AAPL and they'll need to explain why they've lowered targets for Q3. An OS release quarter brings in alot of cash, and analysts need to know ahead of time when so they can accurately (haha) predict the earnings.

It's a not-so-transparent ruse (1, Insightful)

LaughingCoder (914424) | about 7 years ago | (#18732781)

... they delayed Leopard for 4 months. Does that mean that the iPhone is more important to Apple than Mac OS?
This tells me that Leopard was not in very good shape. This sounds like a convenient way to extend its schedule so they could address Leopard's problems while spinning it as a positive commitment to the iPhone. Clever, but transparent.

Damn you Apple (1)

wumpus188 (657540) | about 7 years ago | (#18732783)

I think I woul speak not only for me but for a many developers out there - pretty please, with the sugar on top, it is time to release f*ing xnu 10.4.9 sourses already..

Capitalizing? (1)

wumpus188 (657540) | about 7 years ago | (#18732829)

The current Apple funbase is pretty pissed (developers at least). Dont't know how long you can capitalize on that...

sh1t (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732843)

Addresses will are having trouble all know we want. enginnering project least I won't corporations move any equipment

What generates more revenue? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732863)

What generates more revenue a $600 phone or a $200 pussycat? I don't know the margins on these 2 product but I have to believe that they will get more dollars back from the iPhone

http://sqlservercode.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]

Perhaps... (-1)

stubear (130454) | about 7 years ago | (#18732873)

...Apple should be spending more time on fixing the way fonts work in OSX. You want to know the real reason why no one bothers to write viruses for OSX? Because Apple has already built-in systemwide destruction capabilities through their crappy implementation of fonts and font caches. I have seen so many problems with just two OSX systems (and out IT guy has stories of many, many, many more) caused solely by font cahes and corrupted fonts; hard drives being toasted, the system itself becoming so corrupt that nothing short of a complete reinstall will fix it, and numerous app crashes. All of this traced back to something you'd think Apple would want to get right in the first place since their biggest proponents are those of us in the graphic design industry. And before anyone asks or makes a smart ass comment, these aren't fly-by-night fonts that are causing the problems, they are high-qiuality fonts created by respected font foundries.

my guess (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732881)

my guess is that they were busy buttfucking a bunch of apple fagbois so they lost some time getting around to working. they were fucking those apple fagboi losers hard.
 
if you're a switcher and you're a heterosexual GTFO.
 
lol!! dumb fucking filthy faggots. sucking them dicks.

Re:my guess (0, Flamebait)

limecat4eva (1055464) | about 7 years ago | (#18732943)

Who, in this day and age, still thinks it's an insult (rather than a compliment) to call someone gay?

Oh yeah, PC users. Behind the times as ever, I see.

3rd tier (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732913)

iphone is nothing more than apple skin on third tier cheap mobile phones from china.
Nobody including chinese uses these P.O.S. S wrapped on a fancy paper is stil a S.

NIGGERS!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#18732921)

Leopard was delayed because of NIGGERS!!!!!!
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