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Beryl User Interface for Linux Reviewed

CmdrTaco posted more than 7 years ago | from the yo-ho-ho-and-a-beryl-of-rum dept.

Linux 271

techie writes "OSWeekly.com has published a review of Beryl, a very cool looking UI for Linux. Matt Hartley writes, "This release, in my opinion, was the most over-hyped and bug-filled to date. You will have to really hit Technorati to see more of what I'm talking about, but Feisty is as buggy as the beta I tested a short time ago. After completely tossing into the wilds of the ubber-buggy "network-manager," anything running with Edgy supported RT2500 driver shows up, but it will not connect without a special script. Those of you who are on Feisty and need help with your RT2500 cards are welcome to e-mail me for the bash script."

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Could we have that in English please (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18839637)

Perhaps:

Beryl (note spelling) is buggy. It isn't finished yet.
Feisty Fawn is still a bit buggy. Its only just released.

Re:Could we have that in English please (4, Insightful)

cosmocain (1060326) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839781)

full ack.

and - actually - (without the article) i'm still looking for a correlation between the headline and the abstract.
one step further: beryl is buggy? please - take a look at the version-number. included in ubuntu is 0.2 (NULLDOTTWO): this is a mere testing release, not a final and stable. and: it's not enabled in ubuntu by default.

to sum it up: nothing to see here, please move along.

Re:Could we have that in English please (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18839931)

How random is the interet - I found this post link in the description of a vehicle on ebay motors [bidburglar.com] How odd!

Still whatever a good read - thanks :)

Re:Could we have that in English please (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18840415)

0 != NULL

grammar nazi in training

Re:Could we have that in English please (-1, Troll)

hobo sapiens (893427) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840687)

that reasoning sounds familiar...were you an Apple fanboy in a previous life?

In all seriousness, though...I haven't had any problems with Feisty, and Beryl, well, who cares? I mean, really? I don't think many linux geeks care about Beryl other than maybe to turn it on and say "wow, that's neat" and turn it back off.

The target audience for something like beryl doesn't know enough to use linux anyhow. These are people who are captivated by glitz and chrome. They're prisoners of Bill through and through.

Don't get me wrong; I think it's neat that it was developed. It goes to show that OSS can be as pretty as proprietary software. But other than proof of concept, it adds little value.

Re:Could we have that in English please (1)

AvitarX (172628) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840113)

Beryl (note spelling) is buggy. It isn't finished yet.
Makes sense.

Feisty Fawn is still a bit buggy. Its only just released.
Has Linux spread so far that we now have the MS apologists with us too?
I havn't updated yet but there were a lot of bugs in the beta I have on my home computer, they should not be in the final release (For example gdesklets on AMD64). There is a transparent developement process and we should not expect to wait until version .03 (.06?) for a decent release. This could just as easily been an RC if it is not ready yet.

After reading TFA... (5, Interesting)

brennanw (5761) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839661)

... I think the author needed to include a little more information.

For example, exactly how does Beryl interfere with OpenOffice Write's word count feature? I'm trying to make a connection and I'm flummoxed.

Also, given that the author spent most of his time reviewing Beryl on Edgy, how exactly does Feisty's network manager reflect on the stability of Beryl? I think he was including the network manager as an example of how buggy Feisty is (though I haven't really noticed any problems myself, perhaps Kubuntu's network manager is a different beast) but there were a few connections that he made internally that didn't necessarily make the transition to the article itself.

Re:After reading TFA... (2, Insightful)

bedonnant (958404) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839713)

the blurb actually is more about knetwork-manager than about beryl which is supposed to be the focus of the review.

Re:After reading TFA... (2, Interesting)

GIL_Dude (850471) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839841)

I know it doesn't have anything to do with reviewing the new UI and all, but I actually have this network manager issue now. Just yesterday I chose to update my working Ubuntu 6.10 machine online to 7.04. It downloaded all 966 files it needed, removed some packages, installed a whole bunch and rebooted. Now it is 7.04 and there is no network anymore. It has something to do with the CNet Pro200WL PCI Fast Ethernet card (which Feisty detects as a DEC Tulip compatible or something). It shows the card there, but as disconnected and I haven't found how to make it work so far. Definitely not the upgrade I had expected.

I guess what I am saying is that I understand why he would be harping on the network manager thing since it just doesn't seem to work with some cards that worked fine with the last version.

Re:After reading TFA... (2)

SpaceballsTheUserNam (941138) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840161)

to date, every single ubuntu dist upgrade and kernel update has broken my wireless (acx111). i think im just gonna keep running dapper for now.

Re:After reading TFA... (2, Informative)

aaronl (43811) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840509)

That card is using a DEC Tulip compatible chipset (the Davicom 9102). It's been supported by the kernel for quite a few years, so I doubt that it's the kernel's fault. As a quick thing to check, try killing all dhclient/dhclient3 processes, and running "dhclient eth0" by hand. That would tell you whether it was network-manager/dhclient or something more, at least. You could also trying manually configuring with "ifconfig eth0 my.full.ip.address netmask 255.255.255.0 up" and see if you get some network access. If you do that, you'll need to also do "route add default gw gate.way.ip.address" to get off your LAN.

FWIW, I'm running one fresh install of Feisty without problems on my NForce board (MCP51). I did an upgrade from Edgy on a Broadcom BCM5754 desktop, and a laptop with a Broadcom BCM5751 and an Intel 2200BG 802.11g miniPCI card. If you have time and another network card, I'm sure the Ubuntu people would appreciate you trying it out and posting a bug report on Launchpad.

Re:After reading TFA... (1)

xtracto (837672) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840765)

thing since it just doesn't seem to work with some cards that worked fine with the last version.
From what I have seen on the ubuntu forums (i went there a lot while trying to make my wireless card work on Ubuntu), this is quite normal with every ubuntu release, hardware that used to work fine on preivous releases just stop working on the new releases.

And for one of the first posters that states in some way implying that the justification for Feisty of being buggy is that it has just been released, that is bullshit. It is surely the same people that are the first to note any Windows Vista bugs malfunctions, so if we apply the same stick, Windows was "just released".

In conclusion, if they didnt cared to test their software before using it then it is their fault, it is a buggy distribution if some of its pieces are buggy. That is the price to pay for "cutting edge", and that for me was the primary reason why I didnt use Kubuntu which is based in KDE that is IMHO a piece of buggy software... (shure not BSODs but KCRASH SIGSEV windows appear each 5 mintues) and no, it is not my hardware, I am running Windows XP (and Ubuntu) quite nicely.

Re:After reading TFA... (5, Insightful)

JanneM (7445) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839743)

This is sort-of off topic to the Beryl thing (but then the reviewer didn't manage to stay on topic either), but my experience of Feisty is that it is a lot more stable and supports more stuff out of the box than Edgy ever did for me - and that includes NetworkManager, which so far has been working with both my Wifi and wired network without a single hitch.

Of course, it all depends on exactly what hardware you have. Which means that making sweeping statements on any distributions' hardware compatibility is pretty senseless based on the experience of one machine.

Mod parent up! (5, Insightful)

khasim (1285) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839987)

These "reviews" are stupid.

#1. Review the distribution with hardware that WORKS WITH IT. You want to review the distribution, right? Not "does it work with Card XYZ123". I know, I know. Finding that hardware is too hard for you. You want to "review" it based upon whatever you have at hand right now. Whether it works or not.

#2. If you want to review how it has problems with "Card XYZ123" then right your review about that card. That means you try that card with different distributions. Again, I know. You don't want to spend more time or effort than is absolutely necessary to get your "review" out.

#3. If you're going to review hardware, review hardware. Which cards are supported? How well? Which are not? Why not? Of course we're not going to see many of these because it takes even more time and effort than the other two.

Re:Mod parent up! (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18840337)

"#1. Review the distribution with hardware that WORKS WITH IT."

It did. The hardware doesn't any more. Not to mention, you overlooked where the hardware CAN work but simply doesn't because, as is becoming oddly typical, release schedules is getting more and more important than good software.

"#2. If you want to review how it has problems with "Card XYZ123" then right your review about that card."

Removing one bias of card no longer supported and report on only approved hardware? This is Linux, not MS Vista.

"#3. If you're going to review hardware, review hardware."

*head explodes*

Hardware and software go together when you're talking about features or support within an OS. What are you are advocating is ridiculous: "The motherboard was about 1 foot square, height of 1.75 inches, rich green PCB with a centrally located CPU. It looks nice, but you're going to use it in a case. I didn't run any software on it, because this is a hardware only review."

All in all, I don't find the review stupid. The distribution is dropping support for hardware between releases and even betas. The review is clear that this is supportable hardware that does not work.

Ubuntu has a lot of things going for it, but since the upgrades to 6.10 and 7.04, it seems they are rushing things BADLY, but the community is just letting bugs sit over and over again. Old bugs don't get fixed handily, and the new releases are adding more bugs to the overall distro. From 6.02 to 6.10 or so, there were unresolve display and interface problems. Now, 6.10 to 7.04 is dropping straightforward support for previous supported cards.

Let's spin this another way for you--my present XP setup has less apparent, known bugs to me than my Ubuntu 6.10 box does. If you are only going to stay with support for major hardware, I might as well return to XP and Vista and get officially supported drivers than this aggravation. And yes, I can point out bugs not fixed from 6 to 6.10 that are documented and have just sat there, unfixed, despite clearly reported and demonstrable and repeatable. They're on the forums, documented, and have been mentioned on /. before.

Re:After reading TFA... (5, Funny)

ScottSCY (798415) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839913)

For example, exactly how does Beryl interfere with OpenOffice Write's word count feature? I'm trying to make a connection and I'm flummoxed.

Go to openoffice; do a word count. Shift cube left or shift cube right onto new workspace. Where is the wordcount now? Huh? Where? Not there!

Ah, OK. (1)

brennanw (5761) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839993)

See, not having used Beryl myself, I had no idea that was a problem. A little more detail in the article describing the problem would have been pretty helpful.

Wow, I wished they had told me sooner (1)

mtgarden (744770) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839951)

Wow, I wished they had told me sooner; before I had successfully used Beryl on my Feisty box. Now, I am going to have my cool display break on me....

Seriously people; what's the deal? Beryl has worked for me; and I could be an anomaly, but A) I know it is beta and B) it has worked for my friends. So is Beryl really that bad?

And regardless of your opinions of Ubuntu as a distribution, is it really that buggy? I haven't had any problems yet. Have any of you?

Informal poll here:
Is Beryl (not required for Ubuntu) as bad as this guy makes it out to be?
Is Feisty (required for Ubuntu 7.04) as bad as this guy makes it out to be?

Re:Wow, I wished they had told me sooner (1)

shaitand (626655) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840223)

'Is Beryl (not required for Ubuntu) as bad as this guy makes it out to be?'

It just so happens that I am running both. I have had no problems with Beryl so far.

'Is Feisty (required for Ubuntu 7.04) as bad as this guy makes it out to be?'

The only hiccup I have had is that my sound card was incorrectly detected and this card works with previous Ubuntu releases.

Re:Wow, I wished they had told me sooner (2, Informative)

danbert8 (1024253) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840273)

First of all, Fiesty IS Ubuntu 7.04, not required for it. They are one and the same thing.

Second of all, Beryl works great for me, doesn't crash, and doesn't interfere with anything.

Finally, I'd like to point out that Fiesty is the greatest thing that happened to my laptop. It finally convinced me to get rid of Windows altogether, because finally S3 suspend works correctly, along with all my other hardware.

Re:Wow, I wished they had told me sooner (1)

Asztal_ (914605) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840301)

I particularly love when beryl manages to slow down to 5 frames per second... on a GeForce 8800 GTS and a Conroe @ 3.4GHz.

Re:After reading TFA... (1)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840065)

As for a Beryl review, it would seem the best part of the article is:

Pretty, But In Beta.

Well... OK.... there ARE other nuggets embedded in the various comments about application choices for Ubuntu Feisty. Other informative bits include:
  • Not for use with other 3D applications (i.e. games) - even affects performance after switching back to a 2D windows manager
  • Best used with Nvidia graphics cards / drivers
  • Author suggests installing drivers using a utility called Envy (apparently helps installing proprietary drivers and assorted system configurations)
  • Follow the Beryl project's tutorial and avoid others with lesser track records of success

Re:After reading TFA... (2, Informative)

mackyrae (999347) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840485)

I would say it's best with Intel. nVidia users seem to run into issues a lot, like the black window bug that's caused by nVidia making craptastic drivers. Intel graphics *never* fail.

OOo must be to blame! (1)

monkeySauce (562927) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840327)

Not only does the OOo word count not work for him, but it somehow crossed his "Review of Beryl.odt" article with his "Random Rants About Ubuntu and Stuff.odt" article and spit out one incoherent piece of shit!

Re:After reading TFA... (1)

mackyrae (999347) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840425)

A lot of people complain about NM, but I've never had an issue with it. It's worked perfectly for me, even with WPA, since Dapper (IPW3945). The ones who complain are the ones who have hardware not found on this list: http://live.gnome.org/NetworkManagerHardware [gnome.org] If yours is working fine, it's because your network card is supported.

Network-manager blaim game (4, Insightful)

KeyserDK (301544) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839663)

if it's the rt2500 that isn't working then it's most likely isn't network-manager, but your driver. Please complain about the correct part(s) ;)

Re:Network-manager blaim game (1)

jimmy_dean (463322) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839851)

Exactly, I completely agree. Feisty has been solid for me on my Dell Latitude D820 and solid for 2 co-workers of mine on other boxes. NetworkManager is a mature app that has been around for at least 2 years now (approx.).

Re:Network-manager blaim game (4, Interesting)

pathological liar (659969) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839953)

Sort of. Network-manager runs everything through wpa_supplicant, which simplified the backend greatly. The rt2500 driver doesn't (or at least didn't) work properly with wpa_supplicant, instead of implementing WE19 they sorta went off and did their own thing. That may have changed, I stopped tracking the development when I stopped using the card.

So you could blame network-manager for not having a backend for every random card, wpa_supplicant for approximately the same thing, or the rt2500 guys for not sticking to the right standard.

It's not really a bug in anything though, it's just unsupported.

Re:Network-manager blaim game (1)

frogstar_robot (926792) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839983)

As of their latest driver, the rt2500 still does its own thing. I beat my own head against it last weekend. It was waaaaaaaaay harder than it had to be to figure out how to configure and bring up my connection. On the positive side, it has been rock solid so far.

Re:Network-manager blaim game (1)

fimbulvetr (598306) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839967)

Agreed. The fact that the rt2500 doesn't work with NM has been known for quite some time, and hardly deserves to the reason 7.04 is called "buggy".

Re:Network-manager blaim game (4, Insightful)

LighterShadeOfBlack (1011407) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840311)

A release of an OS distro that is supposedly the great hope of Linux for the consumer desktop, knowing full-well that it's default setup will break wireless networking for anyone using RALink chipsets is a great big fucking mistake on Canonical's part. It may not be a bug in the OS per se, but the second the "average user" that Ubuntu is supposedly trying to win over upgrades and finds that their wireless stops working is an immediate black mark on the desktop Linux concept. This is especially true since we're talking about networking here. If support for some random peripheral like a printer or a camera failed then that's one thing, but with Linux's absolute reliance on net access to solve problems a broken wireless setup could well have just removed the user's only hope of solving the problem. Leaving the user looking for that Windows CD they were led to believe they'd never need again.

You can go on and on about how this isn't the OS's fault, but you'll be missing the point. The end user doesn't care whether it was the OS proper that's responsible or "merely" a driver that was provided with it. The bottom line is that what worked in 6.06 and 6.10 works no more and as long as things like this continue and worse, are defended with irrelevant arguments like yours, the further Linux looks from ever becoming a legitimate OS for the average computer user.

Network-manager lacking (1)

Junta (36770) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839975)

Until the 0.7 is out, I can't use it (lack of LEAP support). And I have seen it lose it's mind completely on an ipw2100 system in WPA2 on occasion whereas a simple wpa_supplicant.conf and single wpa_supplicant run is rock solid.

And I'm no stranger to crappy, buggy drivers, my primary laptop has an Atheros chip in it now.

0 results found for "berly" (4, Informative)

TodMinuit (1026042) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839665)

Did you mean "beryl"? Seriously, you got it right in the title but not in the blurb.

And you can find the project here. [beryl-project.org] Has web 2.0 killed direct-linking? Let me write a blog post and submit to Slashdot to find out.

Re:0 results found for "berly" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18839885)

He was anticipating the next release, "Burly Butterfly"

Re:0 results found for "berly" (1)

nxtr (813179) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839941)

>>Has web 2.0 killed direct-linking?
 
No, it's just not cool any more. If you're anybody, you'll read it on a blog.

Re:0 results found for "berly" (1)

Caffeinate (1031648) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840601)

>>Has web 2.0 killed direct-linking?
No, but the direct linking feature is still in beta.

Re:0 results found for "berly" (5, Informative)

FreeGamer (1001924) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839959)

Not only that, but this is a review of a project that is being merged back into the original; Compiz [go-compiz.org] . What's the point in running a story about something that is basically going to disappear? A compiz article would be much more appropriate since that is even installed on a default Ubuntu installation these days. Beryl is just the name for a now-dead fork.

Every single article... (1)

Gordonjcp (186804) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840399)

... on the front page right now has some sort of spelling or grammatical error. Every single one.

Come on, /. janitors, explain yourselves.

What is being reviewed here? (5, Informative)

jrumney (197329) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839683)

TFA is slashdotted already, but from the summary I can't tell if he's reviewing Beryl, the unstable fork of Compiz 3D window manager, which is itself unstable and not enabled by default in the latest Ubuntu and most other distros, or the recently released Ubuntu 7.04, AKA Feisty Fawn.

Re:What is being reviewed here? (1)

Svippy (876087) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839727)

The entire quote from TFA seems to be about the new Ubuntu release handling Wireless cards. I'm confused. And it feels weird.

In what grade of school is the reviewer? (1)

mr_mischief (456295) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840683)

The whole summary is just wrong. It's illogical, badly worded, and badly typed. The quote from TFA doesn't appear much better.

He mentions something about his network card being Edgy-supported even though he's using Feisty. I have a hard time understanding why he'd even try something in Feisty that's from Edgy and which he considers superbly (or overly) buggy. If someone's just saying that the card is supported under Edgy and therefore should work fine under Feisty, he should just say that. From the way the quote is constructed, I can't tell if there's actually a problem with the card support anyway, because he says what's needed is script to set it up properly. He says this right after saying the network manager is the buggy part of the process. So wouldn't it more likely be the network manager's fault, and not have anything to do with card support at all? It sounds like the card support is fine and his mention of the issue is just a distraction from the discussion of the network manager.

The graphical interface is spelled 'Beryl'. The word 'ber' is spelled 'ber', 'ueber', or possibly 'uber' but never 'ubber'. 'Edgy supported' would be more properly 'Edgy-supported'. Very few people use 'e-mail' as a hyphenated word these days, but it's at least somewhat normal. 'Tossing' is, last I checked, usually a transitive verb. What was tossed into the wilds? I think maybe the metaphor here is mixed. 'Trekking into the wilds', 'venturing into the wilds', or 'tossing my configuration to the wilds' might make sense. 'You will have to really hit Technocrati' I think puts the emphasis on the wrong word. By splitting 'to hit' with 'really', it sounds like I'd have to hit Techoncrati particularly hard (metaphorically) or that I'd have to really, literally, need to physically strike Technocrati. Perhaps the author meant 'You really will have to hit Technocrati', which simply means that seeing the information at Technocrati is the only good way to get the full effect of what he is saying. When reordered in such a manner, it sounds quite awkward. Even better would be 'You really need to hit Technocrati' or 'You really have to hit Technocrati'. Perhaps 'You should hit Technocrati' would be even better.

Now, the spelling or typing mistakes alone don't break the summary. The grammatical mistakes don't take too much away. Each little logical fallacy doesn't destroy it on its own. However, the writing really does not help the situation. The poor expression of the ideas confounds what appear to be issues with the ideas themselves. This is why we get grammar and spelling corrections all the time. It's often overkill on Slashdot to correct someone's spelling or grammar. That's because the idea is usually still clear enough and because the errors are usually in the comments. In this case, the points the authors (of the summary and the quoted section of the article) of a root post are actually quite lost. I'm not even sure there were points being made.

I wish I could RTFA to clear up my understanding of what's being said. However, it seems the people who consider themselves so qualified to review an operating system failed to scale their servers to Slashdottian proportions before they got a link to them from the front page. Obviously, many servers get trounced by the Slashdot effect, but most of them are not for OS review sites. I'm not particularly familiar with OS Weekly, so perhaps they specialize in just desktop concerns. If that's the case, their reviews might be worthwhile. However, I hope they don't review operating systems for production servers. I certainly wouldn't give much weight to their reviews for those now.

And I need to preview... (1)

mr_mischief (456295) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840749)

'über'. The word is spelled 'über', 'ueber, or 'uber'. Never 'ubber'.

Re:What is being reviewed here? (1)

joshier (957448) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839753)

It's not enabled by default in feisty.

Re:What is being reviewed here? (0)

RevHippie (95813) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839809)

No kidding. Very clumsy article summary.

Re:What is being reviewed here? (4, Interesting)

TheMeuge (645043) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839837)

I don't know what's "unstable". I've set up Beryl on 3 computers in the past few months, on Ubuntu 6.10 and 7.04... and all the installations are "stable".

In my experience, Linux with Beryl is so vastly superior in terms of looks, productivity tools, and usability, to anything other operating systems offer, that having no programming or Linux experience, it took me 1 week to stop booting into my Windows installation. ... and just to think that I installed Linux as a gag.

Re:What is being reviewed here? (3, Insightful)

GauteL (29207) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840303)

I don't know what's "unstable". I've set up Beryl on 3 computers in the past few months, on Ubuntu 6.10 and 7.04... and all the installations are "stable".

"Works for me" is not the most common definition of "stable" in software development. I can give you an opposite account. Beryl and Compiz are both still flaky and has numerous show stoppers even on the hardware where it works best. That is also why it is not enabled by default in any big Linux distributions.

Re:What is being reviewed here? (2, Informative)

dan dan the dna man (461768) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840459)

Practically everyone I know is running Beryl as their WM. I'm staring at it right now as I type. I couldn't however for a moment, and nor would any of my colleagues, suggest that it is 'stable'.

Yes it 'works' for sure but please don't consider 'stable' to mean 'I don't have any trouble with it'.

Re:What is being reviewed here? (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840653)

I tired Beryl under Suse 10.1 and turned it off. It was very slow on my system. While not a speed demon it is an AMD X2 and a GeForce 6150 LE I would expect it to run a desktop without any problems.
It does work just fine under straight X so I will live without the eye candy.

Re:What is being reviewed here? (1)

Ant P. (974313) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840695)

The hardware support is what's unstable. Right now the only choices are:
  • nvidia/ati blobs, which aren't an option on a Beryl livecd (and ATI's drivers just suck)
  • intel's driver, which ties you into their motherboard/cpu
  • The r200/r300 driver, which is painfully slow in Beryl (it disables most of the 2D acceleration)

I've tried running Beryl on a bunch of other AGP/onboard chips (S3, VIA, Matrox and an old Rage128). Nothing works, you're forced to use one of the above.

I thought it was just me!!! (1)

1mck (861167) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839697)

Christ...I thought I was doing something wrong! Well, that explains that! The "special Desktop effects" for the windows, and stuff doesn't work, and now when I click on the icon it says that it's not there. Well, I guess I'll just wait for the next update, but I must say getting online was the easiest I've ever experienced in my life! Xmms locks up so bad that I have to reboot just about every time, and that goddamned Totem is pissing me right off...I hate that thing as it takes over everything! Anyway...yay...I got online!

Re:I thought it was just me!!! (1)

cosmocain (1060326) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839811)

the "desktop effects", which you can enable in ubuntu, are - as the disclaimer says - not stable. and: they are COMPIZ, not beryl.

Re:I thought it was just me!!! (1)

1mck (861167) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839871)

I should have prefaced this that not only was I having problems with Beryl, but also with that, and not make it seem like they were one in the same.

"Berly", huh? (2, Funny)

rantingkitten (938138) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839705)

Like the brawl between Neo and all the Smiths? Man, that was cool.

keep it secret (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18839707)

Those of you who are on Feisty and need help with your RT2500 cards are welcome to e-mail me for the bash script.


No no no! Please don't give us detailed information, publish this "special script" or link to it. Just keep it as a secret.

Trying to avoid a 'dotting huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18839729)

You will have to really hit Technorati to see more of what I'm talking about
Now that's a poor attempt at deflecting a Slashdotting if ever I saw one... at least add a link for Pete's sake!

Open Source Lacks That Commerical Polish (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18839747)

Anyone who has shipped a commercial software package can attest to how 80-90 percent of the work on a project is in the final few percent of completion.

These continuous borked releases just shows what a gulf there is between the quality of commercial software and open source projects. When you are getting paid to make software you don't have the luxury of shipping crap like this release. You stay late. You skip lunch. You come in on weekends and get the shit done.

You don't hang out on Slashdot posting snide +5 Insightful modded comments to people reviewing your incomplete or buggy open source project "You didn't pay for it, don't complain" "Did you file a bug?" "Works for me you clearly didnt' RTFM"...

Re:Open Source Lacks That Commerical Polish (1)

Eideewt (603267) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840143)

An open source project has the luxury of making publicly available pre-releases, and updating them as they improve. Beryl, for one, is still down in the .2 releases. It's around 20% done, and it's unreasonable to expect it to be as stable as finished software (not that I ever had instability or crashes in the time I ran it).

Re:Open Source Lacks That Commerical Polish (2, Insightful)

i_should_be_working (720372) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840517)

Oh bullshit. If you are a company who wants "commercial" level software you don't use an OSs latest release that literally just came out, and you don't use a graphical interface that is known to be buggy just so your users can have eye-candy. Which is why you won't catch major companies using Ubuntu 7.04+Beryl or Vista right now. There's nothing unfinished about Debian stable or RHEL.

The problem with comparing a lot of OSS with commercial software is that you get to see and play with the OSS before it's done. It's a feature, not a bug, to be able to have the code before the developers are satisfied with it. Instead of complaining about them "shipping" bad code, you could just not use beta software. The developers of Beryl will be the first to tell you that it's not stable. Would it make you feel better if they hid it from you until it's "done"?

Re:Open Source Lacks That Commerical Polish (1)

mbrod (19122) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840547)

You come in on weekends and get the shit done.


If you look at the bugs database for Feisty there wasn't much outstanding to get done. I ran Edgy and updated to Feisty. No issues, actually the update fixed a few setup issues I had but they were caused by stuff I did.

The issues I do see have nothing to do with the release. It is with code they have no control over. The one thing I still see is the media players crashing out every now and then and I had the same thing happen when I used to use Windows a few months back.

You inferring there was a borked release is incorrect, the only borked releases I know of recently were Vista (late, buggy, forced down peoples throats) and Leopard (late, delayed till October).

Re:Open Source Lacks That Commerical Polish (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18840833)

Yeah, you're right. If only Feisty was as polished as Vista.

Who authored Beryl? (1, Troll)

EveryNickIsTaken (1054794) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839751)

Was this yet another attempt by a programmer to make a non-intuitive GUI overladen with features that the average user would never touch?

Re:Who authored Beryl? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18839773)

Correct. He used to work at Apple. *ducks thrown chair*

Re:Who authored Beryl? (1)

Mr. Underbridge (666784) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840007)

Correct. He used to work at Apple. *ducks thrown chair*

I don't think Mr. Ballmer reads slashdot, nor would he be offended by that comment.

Re:Who authored Beryl? (1)

handsomepete (561396) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840077)

Overladen with features? Maybe. Forced on you as part of the windowing system? Not even a little.

Re:Who authored Beryl? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18840439)

First, Beryl isn't a GUI. It's a window manager. The way it manages windows has nothing to do with whether or not your programs are intuitive. Second, it's quite modular, and you don't have to use any of its features. Just uncheck them if you don't like them.

Re:Who authored Beryl? (0, Troll)

EveryNickIsTaken (1054794) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840477)

Second, it's quite modular, and you don't have to use any of its features. Just uncheck them if you don't like them.
Yeah, and I don't have to wipe my ass when I take a shit, but hey, I prefer to. If I'm going to run a program and only use 5% of the features, whats the point?

Re:Who authored Beryl? (1)

Ant P. (974313) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840817)

Did you choose your OS based on the same metrics? What's the point of running (Debian|Fedora|SuSE|*) if you're not going to install all 15000 packages and fill your RAM with as many as possible?

Come again? (4, Interesting)

rjamestaylor (117847) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839779)

Wow -- different experiences for different people, I guess.

I'm running a Dell Optiplex GX520, all standard corporate hardware, with 2GB of Ram and an Acer AL1912 monitor off the integrated video subsystem -- and running Beryl. Everything "just worked." No configuration needed to install from the 7.0.4 CD & update from the network.

Actually, I have one problem: a page refresh problem with FireFox. When I scroll "up" a page that has been scrolled "down" I get repeated horizontal lines as artifacts. Touching the top window bar clears the page. Minor annoyance that I'm not worried about enough to investigate.

I couldn't be happier.

XGL (3, Insightful)

pjameson (880321) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839783)

He complained about OpenGL performance, however he is running XGL which is known to be slower with 3d programs. Unless he had an ATI card, there was no reason, really, to not use AIGLX, which tends to run 3d stuff a lot faster.

It's just not ready at all!! (-1, Troll)

pablo_max (626328) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839787)

I have tried both the beta and the full realease and I can say for me at least there was problem after problem after problem. I would say that anytime you need to spend several hours search the forums just to be able to get your system to give you a choice to display the proper resolution, that there is no way any normal person is going to switch from windows to this. Beryl was also filled with bugs if you use NVIDIA. Hell you cant even resize windows anymore when using beryl. I would say..crap-tastic!

Re:It's just not ready at all!! (1)

zdebel (1072398) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839923)

weird, beryl is quite easy to compile, and doesn't take that long too, it worked for me quite well, and I've tested a lot of its releases, but I ain't no beryl fan as I don't see the point of it, it's just bloated bloat on top of bloat, which isn't functional, and the whole spinning box thingie is useless, I prefer e17's (Enlightenment \,,/) multidesktop feature, it JUST WORKS, is fast and easy to use, and quite handy if you need to run a lot of apps at the same time

Re:It's just not ready at all!! (1)

bedonnant (958404) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840179)

alright alright! just remember to breathe.

or to use punctuation.

Re:It's just not ready at all!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18839943)

Working ok with a creaky old FX5200 at 1680x1050. In fact working better than OK...

It's not turned on in Ubuntu for a reason. (5, Interesting)

Baavgai (598847) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839807)

In a recent Mark Shuttleworth interview posted on Slashdot [slashdot.org] , the interviewer criticized Fiesty for not having the eye candy turned on. He responded "The actual software itself - Compiz and Beryl - is not good enough."

Re:It's not turned on in Ubuntu for a reason. (2, Interesting)

DLG (14172) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840513)

At work I like a nice stable environment, but I have traditionally used my home machine as a cutting edge tester. Using Beryl in that environment, I have crashed out of the window manager on a regular basis, have had the configuration become unusuable (as in either toss it or reload a saved config) for no clear reason, and certainly seen some performance degredation. That being said, I think its general functionality (once bugs get cleared out) is nifty. I love being able to see all my apps at once in context, love the fact that while I am moving things, and getting all those visual effects, windows are completely live (videos don't even jump). Since I rarely game anymore, it adds value to me having a decent video card.

The fact that it is .20 or whatever suggests one shouldn't run it with the idea that it is going to be rock stable. I look forward to it moving to that state. I think it is impressive enough as is.

Beta Software (4, Insightful)

onion2k (203094) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839813)

I believe that one day Beryl will prove to be a fantastic option for the casual PC user. However, until it leaves Beta, this is best left to people who have a machine that they can take some risks with.


This is Google's fault. People have come to expect Betaware to be essentially a finished application. It isn't. Final is finished. Beta is for testing. If it's at the point where it works and the devs think they've sorted all the showstoppers then it's a release candidate.

So yes, the author is right, casual users definitely should leave this alone until it's done. That's what "beta" means.

Re:Beta Software (1)

fimbulvetr (598306) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840087)

WTF are you on? It's not google's fault, they're just one of the visible ones. Software, in general, has become much more complex than it was 10+ years ago. Many more lines of code, many other programs to co-exist with, more unpredictability w/ OSs, richer GUIs, new paradigms, etc.

As a result, it's tougher to hammer out some of the non-obvious issues, or issues that don't crop up in the first few hundred man hours of testing.

"Beta" in some cases, now just means "Hey, we don't have the resources to dedicate 2 man-years of testing for this App, but it works ok for us".

Yes, But There's a BIG Problem (2, Informative)

mpapet (761907) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840349)

The software update manager in Kubuntu asked me if I wanted to "upgrade" last week. End-users are asked to upgrade from not-so-good Edgy to Feisty which is *really* not working well compared to running Etch.

I'm using Edgy after using Debian Etch throughout its testing phase and *Edgy* is *still* buggier than Etch was in testing. It should not be asking me if I want an upgrade. The upgrade should be an optional meta-package at best.

There are definitely problems with KDE/beryl drawing some of the the kde dialog boxes right. I don't really know where the problem is, but I can confirm I've seen it on KDE. If there was complaints about kde's default wireless gui, it is very limited in use. Kwlan is much better.

The overall impression I get after using the installer and Edgy with KDE is the Canonical projects are running very quick and dirty for what is supposed to be "released" software.

Re:Beta Software (3, Informative)

TheSciBoy (1050166) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840501)

Actually...

Beta has been abused a lot in software firms across the board. This is how it is, and should be:
Alpha release, is a software release that essentially works, but lacks some functionality that is planned for final release. It is released to a limited set of users (or maybe just in the firm that created the software) for ironing out the worst bugs.
Beta release, is a software that has all functionality, which has been tested internally, but which needs some real world testing with users.

Then we have the whole "Release Candidate" debacle which appeared much later because of the frequent use of "beta" for what was actually alpha-releases.

Alpha - Untested not yet complete.
Beta - Untested complete.
Then 1.0 :)

Lately I've also thought about why Google has so much beta testing, but then I found out that the write in Python and then it all became clear. Python, as a type-unsafe-programming language requires E X T E N S I V E user testing to iron out the bugs.

MOD PARENT UP (1)

thepotoo (829391) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840691)

We see enough misuse of the terms beta and alpha on the internet. It'd be nice to at least get slashdot on the right page.

Frost pIst (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18839825)

mirror of TFA (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18839829)

*rant about beryl still being beta*
*rant about word-count in openoffice not working, no reasons given*
*rant about feisty being the most buggy and overhyped release so far, based on the fact that the new network manager fails to work with his specific network card*

seriously, does he get paid for this?

I cant RTFA because its /.'ed, but.... (1)

AP2k (991160) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839831)

is it like the blurb? That is, a big rant on Ubuntu and not much on Beryl? If Ubuntu sucks so bad why not try it on a different distro? Mine works just fine under Fedora 6.

I'd have to agree, but it isn't a stable release (3, Insightful)

digitalderbs (718388) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839839)

I haven't been able to access the article, but I'd have to agree with the summary. I've tried running Beryl on Feisty for a few days, and I've had a few issues. The effects worked quite well for me, but the deal breaker for me was the poor fullscreen support. It's a known issue [beryl-project.org] . I had trouble with both non-OpenGL (mplayer) and OpenGL (mythfrontend) programs, and "undirected fullscreen rendering" didn't work for me. Beryl isn't activated in Feisty (or Edgy) be default for reason.

However, I do think that the work the beryl developers are doing is fantastic, even though it's not yet a stable release. I worry that the enthusiasm in developing great software like this is hampered by negative (non-constructive) feedback... particularly of a non-stable release.

News Flash!!! (5, Funny)

Spudtrooper (1073512) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839891)

Beta software has bugs. In other news, Avril Lavigne can't sing, people hate paying taxes, the sky is blue, and your "girlfriend" from Nigeria who keeps asking for money is really a man.

Re:News Flash!!! (1)

karnal (22275) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840703)

your "girlfriend" from Nigeria who keeps asking for money is really a man.
You never know, some people are probably into that sort of thing....

happy here (2, Interesting)

An0maly (448481) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839937)

still using feisty beta that i installed monday last week. beryl works great and i haven't needed to boot windows for ANYHTING since the install. didn't even bother to download the release iso - seems to be working fine with the beta+updates. using an nvidia gpu on a latitude d620.

installed the same disc on my desktop at home and it was a little funny. had to get the alt iso because it didn't like my ATI all in wonder x800. after some tweaking i got it working pretty well.

some things i've noticed - on my laptop i had to set the renderer to aiglx instead of auto - was getting black empty windows after a while. have not had that problem since changing that setting. at home i get some flickering when rotating the cube.

other than that i couldn't be happier. fawn/beryl are working great for me and i have everything i need to do my job.

Berly? (1)

plasmacutter (901737) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839963)

holy typos batman, fire up the utunbu box adn psot on t3h froum.

the summary reminds me of... (1)

penp (1072374) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839979)

I can't RTFA because it's not loading, but my roommate recently installed Xubuntu because he likes the look of XFCE. He has zero Linux experience, but he seems really pleased with it so far. At the same time, he doesn't seem to grasp the concept that the window manager is separate for the OS, and any distribution of Linux can "look like that". Why does the summary go from reviewing Beryl to the middle of a review of the latest release of Ubunutu?

Am I the only one? (2, Interesting)

McNihil (612243) | more than 7 years ago | (#18839999)

When using Beryl I feel dizzy because my eyes try to focus on the blurry windows when I move them around. After 5 minutes of use I have a strong feeling to puke because of that, its very uncomfortable and I am not using it because of that.

Don't get me wrong, the fluff is nice but I can't use it. Same goes with OSX's and Vistas "enhancements"... nice but in the long run its just in the way.

Beryl and ATI (1)

queequeg1 (180099) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840029)

I am brand new to Linux (installed 6.10 a month ago) and just installed 7.04, primarily in the hopes of getting Beryl to work with my ATI x800 card. I succeeded and everything works well (I couldn't get it to work with Edgy). However, the process was only slightly more enjoyable than shoving hot lava rocks up my butt. From what I can tell, getting Beryl to work with later model ATI cards (read "cards less than 2 years old") involves reading through various help forum posts, printing out a half dozen or so configuration techniques, and trying them one by one (hoping that you don't bork your installation in the process). I don't think the upgrade to 7.04 in and of itself fixed the problem. However, there do appear to be many more posts that address the problem with 7.04 so there is a wider range of possible fixes to choose from. I'm don't really understand why this is such a problem. All I did was make some configuration changes (I already had the correct drivers). I would hope that this would be dealt with in the initial installation. Oh well, I guess I deserve it for using beta software.

Other than getting Beryl to work, I don't notice any significant difference from 6.10, although I am hardly a power user.

i'm liking Metisse (3, Interesting)

brunascle (994197) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840051)

i'm liking Metisse [mandriva.com] a lot. i only played with it a little, but it seemed to be actually useful eye candy. dont get me wrong, i like compiz/beryl, but it doesnt seem to be geared toward productivity.

Metisse, on the other hand, seems to be all about giving you quick access to the window you're looking for, and being able to store more windows on a single desktop.

TFA (2, Informative)

Slugworth01 (738383) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840057)

What makes this even more surreal is the juxtaposition of advertising text in the flow of the article, which I included for the fun of it.

...
(Review) - To this day, I still have to smile when new Linux users decide to take the plunge because they want the cool looking visual effects that Beryl offers. To some limited degree, I can understand the motivation. The stunning videos on YouTube are certainly compelling to those who have never tried to use the setup themselves. Unfortunately, there are still some valid reasons for sticking with the alternatives for the time being. Let's explore some of the issues that I have found with using Beryl.

Pretty, But In Beta. Even assuming you follow the official how-to and not those half-baked tutorials you see floating around, the end result can easily be broken with the blink of an eye. Or rather, an install of a Beryl update. Yes, it's true, updating Beta software can break things, especially when it is your window manager. Because of this, I tend to keep the Beryl repositories commented out only to keep an eye out for any security reasons. Even from the stable updates, I have completely hosed X on more than one occasion. If it works and there is no compelling reason to upgrade - leave it be!

The main point here is that Beryl is very much a beta product. It really kills me to see people spend so much time to get this running when the "wow" factor wears off fairly quickly.

Web Apps Can Never Be Desktop Replacements

What Works and What Doesn't With Beryl. Since I have not tried Beryl on other distributions other than Ubuntu Edgy, the following is not to be seen as a blanket statement. With that said, you will find that some tasks are not well suited for this 3D wonderland. An example? How about anything with OpenGL! Sure, I can run Second Life while cruising around in my world of Beryl. However, the fact remains that it runs so poorly that I'm then forced to use a separate login session. Yes, even switching back to Metacity from the Beryl Manager, thus ensuring things are back to their two dimensional selves, I continue to feel the lag in my system resources when running Second Life and the like.

Then we have the word count in Open Office Write. Obviously, this is something that I use on a daily basis. Unfortunately, it only works about a third of the time (not tested with Feisty yet) when using version 2.04 of the office suite.

And finally, we have the fun of setting up your configuration wrong only to discover that you cannot get pop-up alerts for spell check and other similar items, turn up behind the main browser window. I'm not blaming Beryl on this one, but the end-user. Regardless though, it is still annoying.

Is Beryl Worth Trying? Yes, I believe that Beryl is most certainly worth trying - as a separate session and not the only one you have. I say this as I grow tired of the "running with an ATI card and my drivers don't work" crowd are far too often the bloggers you read about when bad mouthing how "difficult" Beryl is to setup.

GoodBye Windows XP Forever and Ever

In truth, Beryl is easy enough for the average Windows/Mac power user to breeze through once they understand the following.

Get your video driver from this utility. Also consider using a NVIDIA card, if at all possible.

Stick to a tutorial with proven success (Ubuntu Edgy). In my case, I opted to take the XGL route. You may, however, choose to try the AIGLX path instead. I personally use XGL, as I have never had a problem getting it to run - not once. If you can cut and paste with the right mouse click into a terminal window, you can do this. The only area that takes a little trial and error is the startup script. The worst that can happen here is that it does not start Beryl after you do a Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to restart X.

Make sure you are closely following the directions. Since this is for Ubuntu, you may wish to search for another tutorial if you are looking to meet the needs of your distribution instead of Edgy.

Another thing that I fully expect to see rolling into my inbox at anytime now is a note explaining how simple Feisty has made this whole process. Perhaps this is true. I will add that based on what I have seen with Feisty, it will remain on my notebook so I can keep a watch for patches. This release, in my opinion, was the most over-hyped and bug-filled to date. You will have to really hit Technorati to see more of what I'm talking about, but Feisty is as buggy as the beta I tested a short time ago. After completely tossing into the wilds of the ubber-buggy "network-manager," anything running with Edgy supported RT2500 driver shows up, but it will not connect without a special script. Those of you who are on Feisty and need help with your RT2500 cards are welcome to e-mail me for the bash script.

Ah, but I digress. I believe that one day Beryl will prove to be a fantastic option for the casual PC user. However, until it leaves Beta, this is best left to people who have a machine that they can take some risks with. But hey, this is just one man's opinion.

Click here to get the latest prices on Linux distributions!

Counterpost (2, Interesting)

arabagast (462679) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840089)

Just as a counterpost to the very negative summary: I am currently running feisty with beryl enabled on a dual screen, running nvidia drivers. I made a complete switch from windows about a month ago, while feisty was still in beta, but I haven't looked back since. No way am i letting go of my scale plugin for beryl :) (That feature is worth the whole switch just by itself.)

Run 3D apps? Don't run a 3D desktop! (1)

erroneus (253617) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840175)

It's as simple as all that. And since I play at least two games that utilize OpenGL and I like the OpenGL screensavers, I have to vote "no" to the current 3D desktops...or at least to Beryl since that is the only one I have tried. If/when there is a 3D desktop that will coexist with my other 3D stuff, then I'm down with it.

Beryl is pointless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18840193)

I'm running it on Ubuntu 7.4 as I type, it's amusing for about 15 minutes. I do have something positive to say about it, it isn't as irritating as I expected it to be.

The (metacity?) wobbly windows from "system/preference/desktop effects" actually feel quite natural; I think these are separate from Beryl.

Re:Beryl is pointless (2, Insightful)

HardcorePooka (1063342) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840811)

The Desktop Effects and Beryl both use Compiz and from what I understand the two teams are working to bring the code together into a unified program. Beryl installed in about 20 seconds for me... works great. Looks great. No problems whatsoever. On another note... the only problem I have with Feisty is that my sound card won't work... which is not Feisty's fault. It is Creative's fault because they suck at supporting Linux.

It's neat, but... (1)

rayvd (155635) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840235)

I switched to beryl from a plain'ol xfce setup. Very cool eye candy, and I actually did find the layered transparency on my terminals very helpful. Beyond the fact that co-workers would stop by to ooh and ahh from time to time, I eventually decided to just stick with plain 'ol xfce. The cube was a neat idea as well, but not that much superior (imo) than plain ol virtual desktops.

Everything ends up taking a little longer waiting for animations of windows to explode or swish away, or for the cube to zoom out and switch around. :) Cool looking like I said, but it didn't make my desktop a more efficient workplace.

Maybe I missed something that would have tilted the usability in beryl's favor.

I know the intent is mainly to look great, and it definitely does that!

Will be better (4, Funny)

Yetihehe (971185) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840435)

Ubuntu FF will be stable after second servicepack. (hides from a tossed penguin)

Unstable == bugs?! (1)

Anivair (921745) | more than 7 years ago | (#18840777)

Wait! Is he suggesting that unstable software might have bugs in it? Holy crapses! This changes everything!
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