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China's New Internet Plan

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 7 years ago | from the i-don't-want-to-wash-the-people's-internet dept.

The Internet 259

eldavojohn writes "The internet in China is diverging rapidly from the state that the rest of the world enjoys it. Recent news of China's leader, Hu Jintao, has revealed a strategy to distort it even further. Jintao is tackling the issue his Communist party is having with the youth of China that are too young to remember Chairman Mao and the fanaticism the populace had for him. A strategy he is proposing is 'cleaning up' China's internet & lacing it with a little propaganda like the need to 'Consolidate the guiding status of Marxism in the ideological sphere' online. The meeting notes also declared that 'Development and administration of Internet culture must stick to the direction of socialist advanced culture, adhere to correct propaganda guidance.'"

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259 comments

FP! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18842761)

Ducks are Touring complete. They move across a (theoretically) infinite river in either direction. They have memory. In each step, they can catch fish, take a dump, or quack.

Re:FP! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843213)

Wow, funny the first time...retarded from here on out! Add another line to the "automatically ignore" (ie: back of my head) list, since /. doesn't freaking have one...

And this diverges ... how? (0, Flamebait)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842783)

I mean, aside of the (probable) cutting off of non-pro-China webpages that we already have? I mean, do I care whether I get corporate or party spam?

Re:And this diverges ... how? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843043)

I don't get why furries aren't comfortable with having a human sexual identity. I understand the psychological tendency to introduce psuedo-existential levels of separation from human society; it makes perfect sense for someone faced with rejection or derision to redefine themselves in a disassociative manner.

What I DON'T get is how furries--some of which being remotely intelligent people besides having to find a social crutch within a very strict demographic of similar interests--seem to be completely ignorant of the fact that this level of dissociation doesn't accentuate their independence, it only displays that they don't have the force of will to do anything but give into the instinct of solitude.

The furry 'community' isn't so much a gathering of people with similar interests as it is the pattern realized on a populational level of the amount of people who feel so apart from society that they have convinced themselves that are something other than human.

The furry fandom's size is not evidence of rationality. Like I said above, it's simply the pattern being realized of a populational level.

You aren't animals. You're people who have regressed to a degree of solitude where the only companionship you have is to either force your identity on people who aren't comfortable with it, or to nearly revel with other 'furries' and try to forget that you're stifling your development as a fucking person.

Re:And this diverges ... how? (2, Insightful)

mi (197448) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843207)

do I care whether I get corporate or party spam?

You (should) care because corporations are many and competing, whereas there is only one Party (in China).

Re:And this diverges ... how? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843821)

Yes, I'll be crying all day long that I can't be spammed. I truly will.

Re:And this diverges ... how? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843497)

Thank God I live in America, where this kind of behavior is only exhibited by corporations (like Google, Apple, and Microsoft), and our government. Oh, wait a minute...

Echoes of 1936 (3, Interesting)

Billosaur (927319) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842789)

The Communist Party is preparing for a congress later this year that is set to give Hu another five-year term and open the way for him to choose eventual successors. In 2008, Beijing hosts the Olympic Games, when the party's economic achievements will be on display, along with its political and media controls.

The parallels to the Olympics of 1936 are kind of eerie -- then it was Hitler attempting to show off German might and industry, his neat and orderly Aryan society, and the superiority of the German race. Perhaps this is not as sinister, but it is certainly disturbing.

Re:Echoes of 1936 (1)

Zarhan (415465) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842873)

The parallels to the Olympics of 1936 are kind of eerie -- then it was Hitler attempting to show off German might and industry, his neat and orderly Aryan society, and the superiority of the German race. Perhaps this is not as sinister, but it is certainly disturbing.

So who's going to be the Jesse Owens of 2008?

Re:Echoes of 1936 (1)

ReidMaynard (161608) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842987)

So who's going to be the Jesse Owens of 2008?
CowboyNeal, naturally.

Re:Echoes of 1936 (2)

Aminion (896851) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843011)

So who's going to be the Jesse Owens of 2008?
Hopefully a Tibetan guy/girl.

Re:Echoes of 1936 (1)

bladesjester (774793) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843223)

Or someone from Taiwan...

Re:Echoes of 1936 (1)

wumpus188 (657540) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843557)

No, they're buddhists, they don't sive a shit about Olympics.

Re:Echoes of 1936 (1)

DeadChobi (740395) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843475)

Ahh, Jesse Owens. Clearly a fine exemplar of the Aryan race... OH SNAP!

Re:Echoes of 1936 (2, Insightful)

Oktober Sunset (838224) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843537)

I don't recall the Chinese claiming to be any kind of master race, so some guy beating them at running really isn't going to bother them that much. I guess getting whipped at gymnastics might annoy the people who came up with the whole gymnastics boot camp thing, but it's really not going to piss on their whole ideology like Jesse Owen did the the Nazis.

Re: Echoes of 1936 (0)

Gospodin (547743) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843681)

I don't recall the Chinese claiming to be any kind of master race...

Try a Google search on "Racism in China". Eye-opening. Han Chinese strike me as pretty f'ing racist.

Re: Echoes of 1936 (1)

Gospodin (547743) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843617)

Silly to draw any conclusions from two datapoints, but: Nazi Germany hosted the Olympics in 1936, and by the 1948 Olympics they were no more. Soviet Russia hosted the Olympics in 1980, and by the 1992 Olympics they were gone. Now Red China is hosting in 2008. Any predictions for 2020?

Re: Echoes of 1936 (2, Funny)

moore.dustin (942289) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843707)

We (USA) hosted it in 1996... any predictions for the next 18 months?

Re: Echoes of 1936 (1)

Gospodin (547743) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843839)

We (USA) hosted it in 1996... any predictions for the next 18 months?

Ah, but we also hosted in 1984, and the only thing that happened 12 years later was another Olympics. We didn't even get the sort of regime change that happens every 4 or 8 years here. :)

What can really be done about this? (2, Funny)

zappepcs (820751) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842795)

I do not buy anything made in China. Its not easy to find out what parts of a laptop of computer are made in China, so my plan isn't foolproof, but it's what I know that I can do to stop support for the Chinese government.

What else can people do? Ideas?

Re:What can really be done about this? (4, Funny)

TheLazySci-FiAuthor (1089561) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842833)

We can bring democracy to them - works every time!

Re:What can really be done about this? (4, Insightful)

giorgiofr (887762) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842887)

Erm, you're only stopping support for Chinese manufacturers, I'm afraid. Their gov't is totally unintersted in your actions. If what you're thinking about goes along the lines of stopping support for their industries so that the people will rebel against a gov't that, by alienating foreigners, takes their livelihood away: remember that China will shortly be a self-substaining market.
I believe there is no way to make the Chinese gov't change their mind. Only the peoples of China can choose to get rid of it, and apparently they're not really that keen on doing so.

Re:What can really be done about this? (2, Insightful)

beckerist (985855) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843513)

...or they ARE keen to and are immediately silenced. [com.com]

Re:What can really be done about this? (3, Insightful)

grumpyman (849537) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843665)

. Only the peoples of China can choose to get rid of it, and apparently they're not really that keen on doing so.


How do you know that they're not really keen? You need another 1989 to prove that they're keen?

Re:What can really be done about this? (0)

giorgiofr (887762) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843775)

A small fraction of the student population puts up some resistance 18 years ago (and is promptly squashed) and you call that being keen? Face it, most people are satisfied with the way things are in China. First, I've actually heard that a lot from Chinese people. Second, a 1 billion strong population who is keen on changing cannot be stopped. Or maybe it could, but then I believe we'd witness a more, how to say, notable reaction from the gov't.

Re:What can really be done about this? (1)

jcr (53032) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843833)

A small fraction of the student population puts up some resistance 18 years ago (and is promptly squashed) and you call that being keen?

It was rather more than that. There were PLA units marching in support of the protests, factory workers, etc, etc. If it had just been the students, the thugs wouldn't have gotten so freaked out.

-jcr

Re:What can really be done about this? (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842897)

How do you know that stuff you buy isn't made using stuff made in China? Plus I'm not sure if it's possible to live like a normal person in society without somehow supporting china. You buy a drink from McDonald's, the cup is probably made in China. You can try to reduce it, but I don't think you're going to get very far.

Re:What can really be done about this? (2, Funny)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842899)

I remember George Carlin coming on stage waving a flag of (I think) Japan and saying "I wave this flag for the reason that it was the only one I could find that was made in the USA".

I find it kinda bizarre to buy a US flag only to find out that it's made in China. No kidding, I still have it as proof.

Re:What can really be done about this? (4, Interesting)

SQL Error (16383) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842929)

Buy stuff made in Taiwan. There's plenty of it, it's cheap, usually good, and it'll piss off the Chinese.

Except that a growing number of Taiwanese companies have factories on the mainland these days...

Re:What can really be done about this? (1)

ReidMaynard (161608) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843093)

I do not buy anything made in China. Its not easy to find out what parts of a laptop of computer are made in China, so my plan isn't foolproof, but it's what I know that I can do to stop support for the Chinese government.

What else can people do? Ideas?

I get pre-owned notebooks and parts used off eBay / Craigslist. Even though I know Thinkpads have been made in China for many years, I feel it's a pretty good balance between me getting a good product and money *not* going overseas.

You help best by buying their stuff (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843163)

You help them best by buying their stuff. When the chinese gets richer, they will get more power and demand more rights, freedom and democracy.

All trade blockades suck in opening up countries. Look at cuba. Look at iraq pre 2003 invasion. The only people suffering if you do not buy chinese products is the chinese labourers.

Support the people in china by buying their stuff. You get cheap stuff and they get good salaries, compared to unemployment or small-scale farming. Its a win-win situation for everyone except the chinese government in the long run.

Re:You help best by buying their stuff (1)

jaysones (138378) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843483)

If you don't like Best By you can always try Sircuit Sity.

Re:What can really be done about this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843231)

>>What else can people do?

Skip Wal-Mart is a good start

http://dotnetsamplechapters.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]

National boycotts do not work (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843285)

I do not buy anything made in China. Its not easy to find out what parts of a laptop of computer are made in China, so my plan isn't foolproof, but it's what I know that I can do to stop support for the Chinese government.
I have yet to see a case where a national boycott on a country ever worked. Boycotts on businesses work because since if sufficient people join, its directors will see a direct effect on its bottom line and seek to remedy the situation.

Less so for a country. There are many factors that can influence the economy, so it's unlikely that any boycott will affect a nation's economy to a degree where the government will notice. And even if they do, they are more likely to use it as propaganda against the US rather than change their policies (ie: Cuba or Burma). I also hurts citizens who have (especially in the case of China) absolutely nothing to do with their government's policies. This is the equivalent of a Muslim country boycotting Google over the actions of the US government.

There has never been a case where economic sanctions alone have brought down a repressive regime. While many claim that this was true in South Africa, the collapse of Apartheid had more to do with the ending of the Cold War and the subsequent withdrawal of US support.

Re:National boycotts do not work (1)

Caffeinate (1031648) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843733)

I have yet to see a case where a national boycott on a country ever worked.
We call them sanctions when they're on a national scale. I confess they've never been totally effective on their own, but it is a strong level of pressure against a government and would be exceptionally bad for a country who's economy relies so strongly on trade and manufacturing such as China.

Re:What can really be done about this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843609)

You can help the great rise of Chinese middle class by buying Chinese products from non-state own manufacturers, teaching Chinese English, supporting Chinese overseas students... China has more than 1 billion people, their inner market is huge. You can't hurt the government by hurting the people, resisting their work. But you can let them know that you love them and you can help them living better lives by helping them construct a better society.

Re:What can really be done about this? (1)

jcr (53032) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843803)

I do not buy anything made in China

Your heart's in the right place, but that doesn't help. What's going to bring down the commies in China is increasing prosperity, which will bring with it improved internal communications. If the protestors in 1989 had been able to communicate with the whole country the way they can today, we'd be reading about China's elections today.

-jcr

Status Quo (3, Insightful)

FooGoo (98336) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842803)

This sounds like every other government/corporate plan to me so it's governance/business as usual. When will goverments and corps realize that the internet doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the users we just allow them to use it and profit from it if we so desire. If you can't compete on your own merits as a company, ideology, or political system this is not the place for you.
FG

You forget (3, Insightful)

d3ac0n (715594) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842999)

That communism isn't about competition. Communism is about eliminating all competing ideas and asserting absolute control over every aspect of life. The communist leaders understand perfectly well about the "competition of ideas". They also know they can't compete because communism is a failed ideology. Thusly they seek to control access to information and keep their people in the dark. It's typical totalitarianism.

(To the commie trolls: Yes, I KNOW that's not how communism and socialism is supposed to work, I've read both Marx and Mao. The problem is that in practice it cannot possibly work the way it's designers envisioned it because they didn't take human nature into account.)

Re:You forget (1)

FooGoo (98336) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843059)

I agree. I think at some point the question needs to be asked. At what point does a network cease to be part of the Internet? And what should be done when this change threshold is met?
FG

Re:You forget (1)

HUADPE (903765) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843457)

China makes an interesting case, but it's pretty clearly an internet connected local network. This is akin to many corporations and schools who route all traffic through a central hub before putting it on the internet. China is just much...bigger. When they stop using the accepted transmission control protocol/internet protocol, or if they set up their own DNS servers then we can talk about them ceasing to be a part of the internet

Not trying to make it sound bengin though, this network administrator is watching closely for political speech and can have you arrested/killed if they don't like what you say. Not quite the same as a campus network.

Re:You forget (1)

AltGrendel (175092) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843417)

That has got to be one of the most insightful things I've read on /. in ages.

Human Nature (4, Interesting)

Mateo_LeFou (859634) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843699)

I don't think I'm a commie troll, but I think that at least part of your objection applies to capitalist systems as well.

If I were playing devil's advocate I might say "capitalism cannot possibly work the way its designers envisioned because they didn't take corporate nature into account." For example, there is a tendency in corporocracy to treat *everything as a transaction and *everything as property (see for example "intellectual property", the privatization of drinking water, etc).

I think the fact that corporations have co-opted our ostensibly democratic government so thoroughly is almost as serious an indictment of capitalism as the corrupted Party's betrayal of basic democratic principles in the Reddish parts of the world.

Just thinking aloud, really.

Jintao? (1)

mcsestretch (926118) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842811)

Jintao is behind this?

Somebody call Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker!

Great firewall of China (2, Interesting)

giorgiofr (887762) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842827)

I know it's not really what the TFB is about, but does anyone have any tech details about the Great Firewall of China? How does it work, is it some kind of giant NAT? Are there blacklist-based IP filtering, real-time content filtering? Are ISPs routes set up so that foreign IPs can only be reached via a few select routers that do the censoring?

Re:Great firewall of China (3, Informative)

sharp-bang (311928) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842895)

Wikipedia is your friend [wikipedia.org] YMMV. ;-)

I remember the part about circumventing blocking by ignoring the reset packets being publicized about a year ago. Dunno if it was ever fixed, though.

Re:Great firewall of China (3, Funny)

Dogtanian (588974) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843279)

Wikipedia is your friend
Wikipedia is not your friend. It's only pretending to be so that it can play with your shiny new Playstation 3.

Next week: We reveal that Digg doesn't really love you, and is just using you for sex.

Re:Great firewall of China (1)

Caffeinate (1031648) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843793)

It may be my friend, but from the article . . .

The Golden Shield project was started in 1998. The first part of the project lasted three years, completed in 2006.
2006 - 1998 = 3. This is truthiness [wikipedia.org] if I ever saw it.

Re:Great firewall of China (1)

thewils (463314) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843161)

If there's content that is being blocked by the GFOC, how about a concerted effort by webmasters of sites that aren't currently blocked to provide a webring of sorts to each carry some blocked content.

I'm sure this sort of thing can be organized over the net in time for - say the Beijing Olympics, when the Chinese will have world focus, and lots of other things on their hands at the same time.

Just a thought. It would need a website where you could sign up to either provide or host some content (just a page or 2 will suffice), with links to other sites. If you could "turn on" all this content at the same time, they'd be so overwhelmed that there's no way they could get round to censoring it completely.

Marketing is the key (4, Funny)

sharp-bang (311928) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842829)

"Consolidate the guiding status of Marxism in the ideological sphere"

"Development and administration of Internet culture must stick to the direction of socialist advanced culture, adhere to correct propaganda guidance"

"Internet cultural units must conscientiously take on the responsibility of encouraging development of a system of core socialist values"

Boy, does that Politburo know how to turn a phrase. I know I'm inspired.

And what, exactly, is an "Internet cultural unit"?

Re:Marketing is the key (1)

Soch (188557) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842975)

I'm pretty sure an "Internet Cultural Unit" is an ISP... or the police looking over the shoulders of the ISP. Same thing really.

Communists always did know how to turn a phrase and use spin - better than capitalists. While us Capitalists talk of a free market - an idea that many people can think about and get behind, but that lacks emotion - communists go on about permanent revolution - a phrase that calls to the heart, and the young. Sure, permanent revolution is only apealing if you are a revolutionary permanently, but the language is so much more appealing!

Re:Marketing is the key (1)

sharp-bang (311928) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843077)

True enough. Of course, capitalism is known less for its rhetoric than for its fruits. It'll be interesting to see how the Powers That Be in China spin this idea of "permanent revolution" to a generation that wants iPods.

Re:Marketing is the key (2, Funny)

GCP (122438) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843055)

And what, exactly, is an "Internet cultural unit"?

It appears that this is Marxist political terminology for, um, Slashdot.

"... must conscientiously take on the responsibility of encouraging development of a system of core socialist values"

Re:Marketing is the key (1)

mi (197448) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843365)

Boy, does that Politburo know how to turn a phrase. I know I'm inspired.

Of course they do. Its easy — just look around this very forum, where a dozens of morons are already posting "insightful" comments on how America's evil corporationy corporations are controlling our minds just as bad as Chinese totalitarians are trying to control their subjects'.

All, they know about Communism, they learned from "Motorcyle Diaries" and other scumbag-romanticizing crap like that...

Why cant they simply write a book ? (2, Interesting)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842831)

In China the communist party wants to woo another generation with the story of how the revolution was made. Why cant they hire the guy who wrote "How StarWars was made" to write another book "How the Revolution was made".? If there is one thing Chinese communists really like it would be Force, I guess.

This shows why I fear china (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18842849)

I do not fear chinese. They are no different than anybody else. In general, they simply want to live their life and enjoy their family. But China is a different matter. It is controlled by people who are NO different than Mao and unlike in America or nearly any other country, they can not be removed. These leaders are pushing capitalism to weaken America and then will be able to attack the west. I realize that more than a small number of you will accuse this post of being xenophobic or just a W. Lover, but it is neither (most of my freaks are neo-cons). It is somebody who looks at history and sees the same history repeating itself.

Re:This shows why I fear china (4, Funny)

Notquitecajun (1073646) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842911)

do not fear chinese. They are no different than anybody else.

Yes they are. They know Kung Fu.

Re:This shows why I fear china (1)

bladesjester (774793) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843341)

Actually, the communists tried to outlaw kung fu.

They found out that they couldn't do so with complete effectiveness, so they tried to make it into more of a sport - competitve wu shu in which the actual martial aspects were downplayed and basically removed.

The main reason most kung fu that still exists actually still exists is because the teachers either went underground or were out of the country at the time.

Fear is the Mind Killer (0, Flamebait)

CheeseburgerBrown (553703) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842917)

It is controlled by people who are NO different than Mao and unlike in America or nearly any other country, they can not be removed.

Right -- unlike in America...just ask Karl Rove and Wouble-You Bush.

You're talking about a country where an elected leader can be sacked for getting head, but an unelected leader can't be prised from the grip of power with a shoe-horn made of righteous indignation millions strong.

Are you sure the contrast is as stark as you're suggesting?

(NB: Note to American intelligence officials: don't take my comment the wrong way. I love America! Just the other day a crazed Muslim was all like, "Don't you hate America?" and I was like, "No sir, it's all that and don't let me hear diff'rent.)

Re:Fear is the Mind Killer (3, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842967)

I understand you well. I love the USA. I love the country. I love the people. A good deal of my friends and people I care for live and work in the US, simply because they were born there and live there.

I hate the US government, I hate the way corporations grasp more and more power over the people, I hate the loss of liberties for fake security.

I love the country. I hate the way it's run.

Re:Fear is the Mind Killer (5, Informative)

SQL Error (16383) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843021)

You're talking about a country where an elected leader can be sacked for getting head
Really? What country is that? Little tip: Clinton was impeached; he was not removed from office.

but an unelected leader can't be prised from the grip of power with a shoe-horn made of righteous indignation millions strong.
Again, a little tip: Bush was elected. Twice. You may not like it, but that's how it is, under the rules set out in the Constitution. Indignation, righteous or otherwise, is completely irrelevant. And come January 2009, he is gone.

Are you sure the contrast is as stark as you're suggesting?
More stark, if anything.

Re:Fear is the Mind Killer (2, Insightful)

smidget2k4 (847334) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843125)

And he wasn't impeached for getting head (which is simply bad PR, not really an impeachable offense), he was impeached in the House for lying under oath about getting head.

BIG difference there. One is a felony, the other is being an asshole.

Re:Fear is the Mind Killer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843369)

I thought one was a felony, and the other was bein' a stone cold pimp, yo!

Re:Fear is the Mind Killer (2, Insightful)

nsayer (86181) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843503)

the other is being an asshole

Let me clarify the clarification. Even getting head is not so bad. Clinton's actions were "assholish" on two counts:

1. He was married at the time. Granted, there are open marriages out there where it may be ok to get some on the side, I don't recall any evidence that this was the case with the Clintons. The fact that he had to seek her forgiveness, in fact, supports that it was a move with "asshole" status.

2. He was getting it from a subordinate employee approximately half his age. Retire the cup.

The parent is correct that the only reason it became grist for Congress' mill was the fact that he lied about it under oath. Besides, rumors [geocities.com] abound [wisc.edu] that he wasn't the first president who might have got his winky wet the wrong way.

Re:Fear is the Mind Killer (4, Insightful)

rlp (11898) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843339)

Let me add this little thought experiment:

Set-up two local sites: one in China, one in the US. In each, post articles denouncing the local country and call the country's leader every vile name known to man. In the US, you'll end up with a popular left-wing web site. In China, you'll get a knock on the door in the middle of the night and will never be heard from again.

Re:Fear is the Mind Killer (0)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843435)

Again, a little tip: Bush was elected. Twice. You may not like it, but that's how it is, under the rules set out in the Constitution.

Can you show me where in the constitution it says it is appropriate to stop a recount being carried out according to law?

Can you show me where in the constitution it says that you should list citizens in good standing on a list of felons and disenfranchise them?

I didn't think so.

Re:Fear is the Mind Killer (1)

JeanPaulBob (585149) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843687)

Your first question would be so much more convincing--check that, it would have the bare minimum of validity--if it demonstrated any awareness of the Supreme Court's rationale in ending the recount, along with some indication of why that rationale was wrong.

Re:Fear is the Mind Killer (1)

debrain (29228) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843605)

Again, a little tip: Bush was elected. Twice. You may not like it, but that's how it is, under the rules set out in the Constitution. Indignation, righteous or otherwise, is completely irrelevant. And come January 2009, he is gone.

Not to belabour the same-old, but I think it's funny (and true, though please, anyone, feel free to clarify). Technically, George W. Bush became the President based on a ruling by the members of the Supreme Court of the United States on a disputed vote count in the State of Florida, which State was being run by George W. Bush's brother, and which members of the Supreme Court were appointed by the previous Presidents (including one or more by president George Bush Sr.?), and due to the uncertainty in the US Constitution arising around voting disputes, George Bush Jr. was permitted, with less overall votes than the next candidate (Mr. Gore), to become President by way of winning a majority of college-electoral districts, which districts are (spoken cynically, I admit) fabricated by the Executive branch of government to preserve predictability and the marginalization of the regional voting trends(*). Phew.

So, while technically George Bush Jr. was elected, it was an awful shady thing, and where the rules of the US Constitution were silent the interpretation by the SCOTUS went against the popular vote of the United States citizens. Given that the federal voting power parity of the average US citizen is nearly always zero (i.e. meaningless), except in swing states, thanks to the college-electoral system, I find myself melancholic when I try to think of it as a righteous preservation of freedoms and fair representation.

(*) The only example I remember was in Ohio, where 9 Republican districts won, each with something around 52% of the vote being Republican. One Democrat district, which was right in the center, won with 95% of the vote being Democratic. I'm not really sure how that works or where it was (or even how true or why it is), and even though my wallowing in ignorance generally preserves me from shock, it was somewhat jaw-dropping.

Re:This shows why I fear china (1)

Howitzer86 (964585) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843355)

I think China, if they want to remain Communist, should shut down their internet all together. Perhaps they should also limit computer usage rights to government, science, and the commercial business zones. Then, they would have total control over the young people once again, educating them only with propaganda filled text books and nothing else. People could also be imprisoned for even hinting at something that the government does not consider patriotic. Personal websites may be banned and consolidated into one big Facebook style website with strict controls. Imagine being forced to make pro Communist remarks through out your blog. Perhaps there will even be a quota for internet users... something like - "you must say something good about the PRC or Hu every 3 days in order to keep your PatriotBook website." The result of painful restriction would also work in favor of the government, as fewer people will be inclined to use it. Both ways they win... and soon, provided they decide to stay connected with the world, they will own most of the internet and be able to force their will on everyone. FUD is fun!

In the meantime (3, Insightful)

iamacat (583406) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842875)

US announced sweeping controls of radiowaves whereby an oligarchy of a dozen media companies will promptly fire anyone who contradicts the official culture by quoting a best selling rap singer.

Re:In the meantime (1)

mi (197448) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843283)

So long as the quoted singer remains free and best-selling (along with fierce government critics like Michael Moore), things aren't so bad here, are they?

Is slashdot.cn part of the new plan? (0)

EveryNickIsTaken (1054794) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842881)

Or would that be s-rashdot.cn? hah.

Sections: The Evils of Capitalism; China Rules!!!!11one; Sweatshops; and YRO (or lack thereof).

Marxism?! (2, Interesting)

Aminion (896851) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842883)

Now that China is rapidly transforming into a market economy, what Marxism is there to speak of? Or maybe the good chairman wishes to enlighted the Chinese youth of the crimes of communism in China and atrocities committed by his predecessors? It would be a great lesson in how a fundamentally flawed ideology can retard a nation with great potential for decades and decades.

Re:Marxism?! (1)

DeepHurtn! (773713) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843531)

How much Marx have you read? Marxism is primarily a critical and descriptive apparatus, rather than a prescriptive one. A great deal of very interesting and valuable work has been inspired by and built upon the Marxist tradition. To dismiss the whole shebang as a "fundamentally flawed ideology" is deeply misguided.

I'm certainly not trying to defend the Chinese government here, but it's interesting to see how decades of American Cold War propaganda continues to circulate.

Re:Marxism?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843705)

You make good points, but the various worldwide Communist Parties don't seem to agree with you. When it comes to putting things into practice, "Marxism" is generally taken to mean the sort of brutal, soul-destroying, mass-murdering, Stalinistic mess which defined the USSR and survives today in North Korea. When the Communist Party of China talks about "Marxism", they mean that kind, even though Communism in modern China is more lip service than anything else these days.

Re:Marxism?! (1)

Oktober Sunset (838224) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843663)

I find the Chinese talking about Marxism to be quite amusing, seeing as they have never been a Marxist nation, and basicly piss on Marx's ideas every day of the week. Mao was even worse than Stalin at twisting Marx's ideas to his own insane bullshit, Maoism wasn't even close to Marxism. The chinese communist party wouldn't know what Marxism was if someone bitch slapped them with the communist manifesto.

I'm cheering for the bureaucrats. :-) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18842905)

Let the bureaucrats take over the country again. The Chinese economy will tank and we'll get our jobs back.

Seriously, the reason our economy and technology developed so well was because of our basic freedom. The Soviet Union could not compete with us because of their top down economic system. The Chinese can compete because there is almost no regulation of businesses. It's kind of like the wild wild west. On the other hand, when the bureaucrats clamp down, they'll kill the goose that laid their golden egg. There's no way they can clamp down just on the stuff they want to stifle. They'll stifle everything and, if there's one thing an economy needs, it is the free flow of information.

In Soviet America: +1, Informative (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18842919)


Internet cleans up YOU!

More "free" trade with China, Now !!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18842947)

Cuz the average American wins with global libertarian free trade !!!

Doesn't...? (2, Interesting)

Nom du Keyboard (633989) | more than 7 years ago | (#18842991)

Doesn't the Internet route around damage?

Re:Doesn't...? (1)

McDutchie (151611) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843217)

Doesn't the Internet route around damage?

Yeah. It'll route around China just fine.

Re:Doesn't...? (2, Informative)

gknoy (899301) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843467)

Doesn't the Internet route around damage?


Yes. However, if you're on the inside of the damage, that doesn't help you much. The rest of the world can go on uninterrupted, but China's citizens are getting a very different view.

Rupert murdoch. (1)

plasmacutter (901737) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843089)

I guess what china really needs is to hire rupert murdoch [slashdot.org] to assist them in their propaganda efforts.

he's been so successful at it he's managed to pull even other organizations to the right. before his day i never heard such hyperbole from cnn as a border fence being called "mexico's insistance on interfering with our national security".

China is not a Socialist/Communist/Marxist Country (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843153)

Re:China is not a Socialist/Communist/Marxist Coun (1)

zzo38 (1092117) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843569)

True. China/Cuba and other countries that call themself communist, aren't really communist, they are actually blasphemies, not communist. Communism doesn't exist.

The obligatory... (1)

wittmania (957575) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843173)

... "how long before we see this in America?" post.

Ah, real life Abbott and Costello classics... (5, Funny)

Bazman (4849) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843187)

A: Who is the Chinese President?
C: Yes.
A: Who?
C: I told you.
A: When?
C: Wen is the Premier.
A: When is the Premier what?
C: The Premier of China.
A: Who is the Premier?
C: No, Hu is the President!
A: That's what I wanna know!

and so on...

How about they practice a little Marxism first (1, Interesting)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843201)

And have the party cadres live like the proletarians? I am a hardline libertarian myself, but I think even Marx would be quite disturbed to see how these revolutions have gone. At least the old regimes had honesty. The ruling class was not part of the rest of society. Funny thing is that at least in Europe, you were probably in real terms freer in the 18th or 19th centuries than you are today by a pretty wide margin. "Advanced socialist society" is a nice way of saying "we think the cost of scientific advancement is that we must regulate you from cradle to grave."

So the chinese can't read this article (0, Troll)

Paulrothrock (685079) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843203)

Here are a few keywords that the Great Firewall will keep the sensitive citizens of China from having to think about:
  - Freedom
  - Human rights
  - Liberty
  - Representative government
  - Elections
  - More than one political party
  - Freedom of speech
  - Freedom of religion
  - Freedom to assemble
  - Freedom of the press

Re:So the chinese can't read this article (5, Interesting)

VendettaMF (629699) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843373)

And yet I just read them all and am replying to them from Shenyang, Liaoning, China.

It ain't so cut and dried.

And then reality sets in... (0, Troll)

penguin_dance (536599) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843281)

Jintao is tackling the issue his Communist party is having with the youth of China that are too young to remember Chairman Mao and the fanaticism the populace had for him.

Yes, well popularity does tend to fade with the restriction of basic freedoms, jailed/killed political dissidents and persecution of one's religious beliefs!

Re:And then reality sets in... (1)

zzo38 (1092117) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843657)

That is because China doesn't follow their own constitution! Their constitution says that free speech and stuff is allowed, but the government doesn't like that, so they don't use the constitution. When your constitution reaches zero, you're dead!

Same as the "cleaning up" shit in Turkey (2, Insightful)

unity100 (970058) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843295)

Same kind of people everywhere. Bunch of retarded morons that are relics of cold war age, struggling to FORCE the youth to live like they did.

They need to die off fast so that the new ages can have a good chance.

Re:Same as the "cleaning up" shit in Turkey (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843389)

They need to die off fast so that the new ages can have a good chance.

...to grow up and to become the fascists.

Everyone in the Chinese government today was a child once.

Re:Same as the "cleaning up" shit in Turkey (2, Insightful)

unity100 (970058) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843729)

what era do children grow up, matters much.

these were the ones who grew up in ww2 and start of the cold war. the furthest extent their vision can go has been long walked past by.

Oh well (1)

Plutonite (999141) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843309)

The internet in China is diverging rapidly from the state that the rest of the world enjoys it.
1) eldavojohn rarely does this, but I believe the first sentence contains a serious grammatical hiccup.

2) Communists finally discovering that totalitarianism needs proper planning/resources to be implemented right on the internet. New age of confrontation begins, but frankly I think the commies will lose this one. When the main battlefields are lost to censorship, Chinese youth will be wondering why they can't access general information websites.

This said, I think wikipedia and other places should begin investigating serious methods of discovering government tampering (as opposed to the lone propagandist). Would it be ok to solicit the help of our intelligence agencies, me wonders?

Not really different (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843367)

What's funny is that if you take out the specific references to Marx and China, this reads almost like a press release from the Democratic National Committee.

Rope (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843395)

And not only are we selling these clowns the rope they'll use to hang us with ( it's a quote ), we're building the factories for them to make it in. Does anybody else feel even slightly nervous about outsourcing all our industries to them ?

Why should we care? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18843411)

This is the business of the Chinese people. You folks want to do economically what the US Gov. is doing militarily. Why is it OK for you people to stick your noses into someone else's business but it's not OK for the US Gov to do it?

How about all of you mind your own business, let the Chinese handle their own affairs, and shut the Fuck up! While we Europeans and decedents in the US were running around with stone knifes and bear skins, those people had a civilization.

Goddamn hypocrites.

But who cares? (3, Interesting)

hackingbear (988354) | more than 7 years ago | (#18843651)

This may sound like a big trouble to you who are not in China.

But nowaday in China, no ordinary people pay any attention to these kind of useless propaganda any more. (Students may have to memorize this thing so they can pass the exams, but I can ensure you it has zero impact on their mental state otherwise, as it hasn't had any on mine when I was a student there in 1980's.)

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